Loneliness epidemic

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This. Some "beliefs" are most definitely a bridge too far for me to be willing to have someone in my life socially.

And the problem is that these people are so loud.   What if they just kept their toxic opinions as inside thoughts.  Why is it expected that *I* will be polite and respectful while *they* spew toxic, hateful rhetoric.  Why isn’t the social pressure on them to be respectful???

[J-rap]

17 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Regarding the claim that people are too intolerant of different opinions - how can you really be friends with people who don't respect your humanity? How do I look past someone's belief that gay people are groomers and shouldn't be allowed to adopt children? How can I look past a belief that women shouldn't vote or should obey their husbands? I can't do that. I can be civil and do the chit-chat but I don't want to be around people like that. 

I spent twenty years of my life trying to fit in with conservative Christian people. I held my tongue. I put up with comments like, "people who put their kids in daycare just want the government to raise their kids," when I put I my kid in daycare. The further I've gotten away from it, the more I can recognize the gaslighting. Being in that environment was very damaging to me. 

I've heard the "just get over it!" and "that's silly - back in my day people disagreed but still got along." First, that's not really the case. It's not that everyone got along. Rather it's that some people kept their mouths shut to stay in the community and other people weren't even allowed to be part of the community. Second, I think "just get over it!" is often coming from a place of pain and damage. 

We might have an epidemic of loneliness but we also have an epidemic of toxic communities. 

What I've found, is that I can look for the person they are deep inside before all the crud of this world -- the layers of crooked systems, abusive pasts, mixed-up brains, etc. -- got ahold of them.  If I can search and find one thing we can agree on, that's a start.  That doesn't mean I put up with things they say that I think are crazy, but I can try and focus on what we do agree on.  

Obviously that's not for everybody and I can understand that.  For some reason that's something I enjoy doing, and it even provides a social outlet for me.  Maybe I enjoy a challenge of trying to really understand a person and how they came to where they are, and the slight possibility of getting them to see things differently.  Of course if there's no humanity left in them at all, which I think is rare, then I'm out.

 

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

And ya, we have people in this town, more than one family, that are openly hostile about "RH negative bloodlines".

Wait. What?!?!  This is a thing to be offended by? What do these people do if they need blood for surgery? They just pass on the o neg???? I’ve never heard of this. Someone please explain this conspiracy. I’ll bet it’s good. 

[SKL]

Well, there've always been people who would rather die bitter and alone than learn to "agree to disagree."  I just don't think it's healthy, and I don't think it's wise to encourage that mindset.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm sorry but I don't think I should be forced to have a "respectful discussion" about my humanity. Why should I be required to have respect for views that harm me and people I love? 

What is a "level of obnoxious?" Why isn't believing that it's okay to rape women or force 10 year olds to give birth enough of a "level of obnoxious" by itself? 

And believing something is in no way the same thing as sexuality, race, or gender. You can change your mind. Someone can't stop being gay. 

Believing that homosexuality is a sin is not "annoying" to me. It's harmful to people I love. 

And how do I not "tolerate" the belief that women are inferior or homosexuality is a sin or whatever? Believe what you want but that doesn't give you the right to my time or my emotions. 

ETA the "my way or the highway" thing. Yeah, it's my way or the highway if you believe things that harm my kid or if you support policies that harm my kid. 

All of us make choices about what we "tolerate" in our life. My DD attends Catholic school and hears a lot of toxic and damaging things. But she has one more year in the school and wants to stay there to be with her friends so we tolerate it. 

 

So your daughter is gay?

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

And ya, we have people in this town, more than one family, that are openly hostile about "RH negative bloodlines".

Whoa, that is so bizarre!  Crazy.  Do they say what their reasons are?  (I'm RH negative.)

[J-rap]

6 minutes ago, pinball said:

So your daughter is gay?

Why would you assume that just because she does't agree that homosexuality is a sin?

[Indigo Blue]

57 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

And the problem is that these people are so loud.   What if they just kept their toxic opinions as inside thoughts.  Why is it expected that *I* will be polite and respectful while *they* spew toxic, hateful rhetoric.  Why isn’t the social pressure on them to be respectful???

Oh, so much this. I’m usually the one who is the recipient of strong (political) opinions. Upon hearing them, I know that to match their level of intensity would only mean escalation to an argument. One you could never win. There is no way I put in my two cents. This is how it is in the South around certain types of people, and I have them in my extended family, too. 
 

I say in my head but not out loud, “Excuse me, but if everyone in this car doesn’t get equal air time, then you just need to stop talking or change the subject.” Why do people like this think everyone is a willing audience to their crazy ideas? But don’t YOU dare say a word. 🙄

Sorry…getting off topic.

[Melissa Louise]

Loneliness is multi-factorial.

Being lonely doesn't necessarily mean you are running around being offensive.

It's more to do with relationship breakdown, and that's complicated.

It's also to do with access to resources, which has nothing to do with one's political pov and with many other factors likewise nothing to do with politics or morality - illness, being a carer, trauma, age.

I would think there were very few people who were lonely ONLY because they have an unsavory view on some topic or other.

 

[pinball]

4 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Why would you assume that just because she does't agree that homosexuality is a sin?

That’s not why I asked. I asked bc she said that view is harmful to people she loved and it’s her way or the highway if people support policies that are harmful to her daughter. 
 

[hshibley]

39 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well, there've always been people who would rather die bitter and alone than learn to "agree to disagree."  I just don't think it's healthy, and I don't think it's wise to encourage that mindset.

I think it depends on the issue. I’m catholic once you start sharing your extreme anti catholic opinions we’re done. There is no common ground. I don’t have to tolerate your prejudice to make you comfortable. I can understand people having the same views on other issues race, religion, LGBTQIA+ issues. 

[hshibley]

36 minutes ago, pinball said:

So your daughter is gay?

It’s none of your business. 

[pinball]

14 minutes ago, hshibley said:

It’s none of your business. 

You should learn to embrace the free marketplace of ideas

[rebcoola]

5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Die bitter and alone or learn to "agree to disagree" about policies that hurt people I love? 

The abuse behind that kind of a statement is sad. 

Regardless more people agree with me than disagree. 

Same boat I lost a lot of friends because they can't accept my kid I would rather be lonely. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Ugh, if we are going to discuss loneliness as a phenomenon, could we not hyper-fixate on a single cause?

There is not an epidemic of loneliness because some people have anti-gay views.

[Heartstrings]

I think a large issue is people not being willing to invite people into their homes. Everyone is embarrassed about their home, the decorating, clutter, cleanliness.  I really think that makes a difference.  HGTV takes some blame here, and home decor influencers.  Having people over at home is inexpensive, it’s easier to settle in for a long visit, easier for kids to play.  It takes vulnerability, which helps create a bonding experience.   If all of the socialization has to take place in public it costs too much money and then you’re time limited.  We need to bring back having people over for coffee.  

[Clarita]

12 hours ago, DawnM said:

I am quoting the article to pick it apart if people want to.   

#1 (more parks and libraries and programming. In my area the library has a lot of programming, but whenever we go to anything for 4 year old + crowd there aren't many people there. So there is something more than just the government providing a venue. 

[knitgrl]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think a large issue is people not being willing to invite people into their homes. Everyone is embarrassed about their home, the decorating, clutter, cleanliness.  I really think that makes a difference.  HGTV takes some blame here, and home decor influencers.  Having people over at home is inexpensive, it’s easier to settle in for a long visit, easier for kids to play.  It takes vulnerability, which helps create a bonding experience.   If all of the socialization has to take place in public it costs too much money and then you’re time limited.  We need to bring back having people over for coffee.  

We have invited folks over to our house on numerous occasions for celebrations for the kids. Before the pandemic, we would have 20-30 people over to our house to play board games at least once a year, sometimes twice. The favor is almost never returned. I thought it was just us...But my father said that back in the 1960's, his parents hosted a party for all the neighbors a few times, but stopped doing it because nobody else wanted to host. So, I don't know if it's entirely a new phenomena.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, knitgrl said:

We have invited folks over to our house on numerous occasions for celebrations for the kids. Before the pandemic, we would have 20-30 people over to our house to play board games at least once a year, sometimes twice. The favor is almost never returned. I thought it was just us...But my father said that back in the 1960's, his parents hosted a party for all the neighbors a few times, but stopped doing it because nobody else wanted to host. So, I don't know if it's entirely a new phenomena.

It might not be new, that’s interesting. I always think of hosting fancy dinners as a 50s house wife thing.  
I usually only invite people over in ones and twos, or families, trying to build friendships.  I don’t do parties, that’s too much stress!  I never expect others to reciprocate. I know so many of them are just not going to and it’s because of factors that don’t have anything to do with me.  A dog that makes it hard, being embarrassed of their old couch, a cat that pees out of the litter box sometimes so they worry that their house stinks.  I just keep inviting.  

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Wait. What?!?!  This is a thing to be offended by? What do these people do if they need blood for surgery? They just pass on the o neg???? I’ve never heard of this. Someone please explain this conspiracy. I’ll bet it’s good. 

There are a couple of conspiracy/mythological beliefs on this. One is that RH negative is reptile blood, thus lizard people. Another is that RH negative people are descendents of aliens from ancient times. The 3rd, and far more rare than the other two since it represents a very small religious group, is that people who have RH negative blood type are descendents of Nephillim who somehow survived the biblical flood.

 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think - should I text her and ask to meet? But then I think - oh, she's too busy. She's probably thinking the exact same thing. 

 

Do it!!  Someone has to take the chance.  

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

There are a couple of conspiracy/mythological beliefs on this. One is that RH negative is reptile blood, thus lizard people. Another is that RH negative people are descendents of aliens from ancient times. The 3rd, and far more rare than the other two since it represents a very small religious group, is that people who have RH negative blood type are descendents of Nephillim who somehow survived the biblical flood.

 

Oh wow.  Do they check people for that?  It’s a pretty hidden thing to discriminate against.  How would they ever know?  
 

So. Bizarre.  

[knitgrl]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It might not be new, that’s interesting. I always think of hosting fancy dinners as a 50s house wife thing.  
I usually only invite people over in ones and twos, or families, trying to build friendships.  I don’t do parties, that’s too much stress!  I never expect others to reciprocate. I know so many of them are just not going to and it’s because of factors that don’t have anything to do with me.  A dog that makes it hard, being embarrassed of their old couch, a cat that pees out of the litter box sometimes so they worry that their house stinks.  I just keep inviting.  

We don't do it because we are hoping to get invited elsewhere, but after years of asking people over, it gets discouraging that nobody else seems to want to make any effort.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Oh wow.  Do they check people for that?  It’s a pretty hidden thing to discriminate against.  How would they ever know?  
 

So. Bizarre.  

I try not to stay around people spouting this stuff, and don't engage. I have no idea how they know. My guess is they have no way to avoid dh negative people unless they go live off grid in a bubble as hermits. It isn't possible to know. My guess though is they don't want to "inbreed" so they teach their kids to demand laboratory reports of any potential mates so they only date, marry, procreate with dh positive people. But then, who knows? We have flat earthers around here too, and frankly, I don't engage either. Some of the flat earthers do carry signs and walk up and down the side walks of the county seat, but only once or twice in the last four years. I expect them to be out though for eclipse 2024 since astronomical events like that tend to set them off.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Die bitter and alone or learn to "agree to disagree" about policies that hurt people I love? 

The abuse behind that kind of a statement is sad. 

Regardless more people agree with me than disagree. 

You may not realize it, but some of your positions of which you are vociferous on this forum are hurtful to me. It often goes both ways, and people of all stripes can be unaware.  Should I feel "abused" by you?  (And now I also feel like you just called me an abuser, which is a pretty extreme thing to say IMO.)

Obviously I'm not about to try to tell you whom you have to befriend or socialize with.  I just don't like your formula as a societal guideline.  And no, it's not just about hating gay people or similar.  Like I said, it's gone too far.  "He won't mask in his home when I visit, therefore I'll have nothing more to do with him."  "She isn't in favor of trans surgery for minors, scratch her off."  "He voted ___, that's it for him."  People are estranging themselves from close family and long-term friends over such things.  I think it's a problematic trend.  You, of course, are free to disagree.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Like most things today, there are systems at work. People work more than they used to so have less time for leisure so it's harder to establish friendships. Our public spaces are more threatened (see today's story about the shooting in the outlet mall). My mother went to work when I was 12. I remember how the moms were all at home in the 1970s (I know this wasn't true for everyone but it was the case in our middle class suburban neighborhood) and they had weekly coffee groups and dinner groups. It's much harder to have a family social life if the wife works. But my mother gladly went to work when my youngest sister started school. She worked until she retired. The tradeoff for her made sense; freedom and intellectual stimulation from work was more important to her than weekly coffee groups with the housewives on the cul-de-sac. I think most women make the same decision. 

Freedom over community - that's the ultimate modern choice. Or post-modern or whatever. Like it not, we're all modern people even if we choose a traditional life. 

The workplace is a community, and a lot of friendships and other valuable relationships happen there.  A lot of people probably have better friends from work than they could have from mommy groups or whatever.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Like most things today, there are systems at work. People work more than they used to so have less time for leisure so it's harder to establish friendships. Our public spaces are more threatened (see today's story about the shooting in the outlet mall). My mother went to work when I was 12. I remember how the moms were all at home in the 1970s (I know this wasn't true for everyone but it was the case in our middle class suburban neighborhood) and they had weekly coffee groups and dinner groups. It's much harder to have a family social life if the wife works. But my mother gladly went to work when my youngest sister started school. She worked until she retired. The tradeoff for her made sense; freedom and intellectual stimulation from work was more important to her than weekly coffee groups with the housewives on the cul-de-sac. I think most women make the same decision.

Many people find connection, community, and friendships at work. Both my parents had life-long friends close whom they met as work colleagues, and in some cases the entire families befriended each other. I have made good friends at work, and a lot of friendly acquaintances. Just last night I hosted my annual summer party for my colleagues and their families; we always have between 30 and 50 people. None of my female friends is a SAHM, yet they all seem to manage having friends and a social life.

[Melissa Louise]

You can have friends and still be lonely.

You can go to work and be lonely.

You can stay home and be lonely.

You can be rich and lonely, poor and lonely.

You can be progressive and lonely, or conservative and lonely.

You can have social skills and be lonely!

~

Loneliness is the part in you that cannot or is not seen/felt/reciprocated by others, in ways that are meaningful to you.

Something that doesn't help, when lonely, is to hear that you should 'just do X' or that it's 'down to Y.'

It's complicated.

 

 

[Garga]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I think a large issue is people not being willing to invite people into their homes. Everyone is embarrassed about their home, the decorating, clutter, cleanliness.  I really think that makes a difference.  HGTV takes some blame here, and home decor influencers.  Having people over at home is inexpensive, it’s easier to settle in for a long visit, easier for kids to play.  It takes vulnerability, which helps create a bonding experience.   If all of the socialization has to take place in public it costs too much money and then you’re time limited.  We need to bring back having people over for coffee.  

My parents live 2500 miles away and last summer they visited for the first time in 10 years. It was after they left and made disparaging comments about my home that I realized that they were negatively judging my home the entire time they were here. My mother is a perfectionist about her home, and I’m just not. I certainly don’t live in filth (!), but I also am not a perfectionist. It’s just a comfortable, lived-in home. 

I got over worrying about my home about 15 years ago, when a homeschooling mom would invite people to her house for little classes or events and her house was a little cluttered and lived in. She was completely un-self-conscious about it and none of us cared what her house looked like (well, I didn’t anyway!). We were just happy to be there with her. 

However, you’re right, Heartstrings, that a lot of people won’t invite others over because they fear judgement. I’m so glad that I don’t care what people think about my house so when my mother clearly let it be known that she disapproved, it didn’t sting. It was weird and rude of her to even talk about it, yes, but it didn’t sting (well, maybe a little.)

I’ve discovered that a large number of people live in houses with dust bunnies and clutter and paper piles but everyone pretends they don’t, or tries to hide it.

 

ETA: Forgot my point! My point is that my mother feels lonely at times and wonders why she can’t keep friends. But if she’s gone to people’s houses and let people be aware that she was busy judging their homes instead of focusing on the people and enjoying their company, then it’s no wonder they’re not inviting her back again. So, yes, sometimes people are lonely because they’re embarrassed by their home, and sometimes they’re lonely because they’re too judgy of others. (My mother is judgy in other areas, though she doesn’t quite realize it.) After she said what she did I was thinking, “You’re making it hard for me to want to invite you back anytime soon.” Fortunately, she was so upset by the tiny seats and the tiny snacks on the plane ride that she said she’s never flying out east again. So, I won’t ever have to worry about her coming and seeing my home again. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Garga

[regentrude]

I see two different kinds of connections that can combat loneliness. One is close, intimate relationships with partner and/or a few close friends. It takes time and prioritizing to cultivate those friendships. But I also find an important role is played by the many daily friendly interactions with other humans. We tend to underestimate how important those are, but I (and many others) felt this acutely during Covid lockdown: the friendly chats with colleagues in the hallway, the unplanned encounter with an acquaintance at the store, seeing and greeting people when attending a theatre performance.... all those interactions in which no profound deep thoughts are shared, but which make a person feel part of a community.

So I think combatting loneliness has to be two-pronged: nurturing the close friendships by prioritizing the time for that, and immersing oneself in community in whichever way works for the person - volunteering, working, or just participating in community events.

As an immigrant, I do not have any friends in this country I have known since childhood or college. There is no substitute for those shared experiences. However, it is still possible as a middle-aged woman to make new friends. In the last four years I have met and befriended four different women who, each  in their own way, have had an enormous impact on my life. You can make new friends in your fifties. One of my closest friends is a woman in her mid-seventies I met at a poetry reading in 2019 - and now I spend much of my free time working with her on her farm.

ETA: when I suffered from depression, one of the main symptoms was a crushing feeling of loneliness. That was my brain talking. In my response I assume we are discussing practical ways to alleviate loneliness that is not a symptom of a mental illness.

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by regentrude

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I spent enough time in patriarchal religions to understand the insult underlying "vociferous" opinions. "you're a woman with opinions - you need to tone them down to not offend me." 

My response to that is sadness, not anger. Just sadness. 

I never said you needed to shut up or tone it down.  Everyone here is a woman with opinions.

When you go on about how intolerably toxic others are because their obnoxious-to-you opinions are in your face, you appear unaware that you are holding others to a standard to which you don't seem to hold yourself.

You're free to say what you want, I'm free to stay off your threads and "agree to disagree."

I am not here to go head-to-head with you, so I'm not going to respond to you any more on this topic.

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Is loneliness being alone? IDK. I think part of this is based on all kinds of assumptions that we make about how people should live. 

 

No. They're two totally different things, of course. One can spend vast amounts of time alone and not be lonely, or one can suffer tremendously from loneliness even if almost constantly surrounded by people. That's sort of the point I was trying to get to when I mentioned earlier about doing the social determinants of health survey and being deemed moderately socially isolated but being an introvert. I couldn't figure out what the purpose of the questionnaire was other than to determine degree of/risk for loneliness, which has been talked and written about so much lately. But what it asked about was (essentially) how much time one spends around others--like whether you belong to a faith organization and how often each week you physically get together with other people for socializing. Even though it said I'm moderately socially isolated I reckon the last time I felt lonely was well over thirty years ago. They're two distinctly different things, but the questionnaire didn't seem to be interested in the feeling of loneliness, just the physical aspect of being alone. That's why I said I'm pretty sure a panel of extroverts developed it.

[SKL]

I agree that loneliness is different from being alone.  However, I do think that having good reasons to be around people can mitigate loneliness, depending on the back story.  You might meet a person who is a good listener for you; you might get the feeling someone out there cares for your well-being; you might have a chance to bless someone else; you might even make an actual friend.  I think the act of talking to someone, even just to discuss the weather, exercises important parts of the brain.  I also think there's both physical and mental value in just putting oneself together and going out in public, especially if your daily routine doesn't otherwise involve seeing people.  But yes, you could do all these things and still feel lonely.

Edited May 7, 2023 by SKL

[Wheres Toto]

12 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

There are a couple of conspiracy/mythological beliefs on this. One is that RH negative is reptile blood, thus lizard people. Another is that RH negative people are descendents of aliens from ancient times. The 3rd, and far more rare than the other two since it represents a very small religious group, is that people who have RH negative blood type are descendents of Nephillim who somehow survived the biblical flood.

 

That is some seriously crazy sh*t.     Yeah, I would have a hard time being friends with someone who thinks I might be a lizard person.    Maybe that doesn't effect the entire rest of their lives but once I knew, I wouldn't be able to look at them the same.    I do spend time with, consider myself friends with, people who I have fundamental disagreements with about the world.   I have quite a few friends who are young earth.   I can't respect that position and thinks it's wacky, but it also isn't making a statement about who I am, so whatever.  

I would not be able to be friends with someone who was loudly anti-LGBTQ+ rights.  

[Terabith]

1) Air conditioning - The rise of air conditioning is a major factor in increased loneliness, because it led to the destruction of sitting on front porches/ hanging out in yards during large parts of the year.  

2) The demise of third spaces - People are less religious and religious organizations are not as much a part of people's lives.  Bowling leagues, civic clubs like the Masons or the Elks, etc don't really exist anymore.  

3) Technology is both a boon to loneliness (I meet most of my social needs electronically) and destructive to social ties.  Working from home leads to people not forging the same work connections.  Because it is easier to meet social needs electronically, people aren't hanging out with people as much.  (Just look at the percentage of teens having sex and drinking...those are negative behaviors, but they were behaviors that functioned with them interacting with peers.). 

There's some kind of relationship between loneliness/ technology and anxiety, but I haven't quite figured it out.  But my gut says it is more of a causation than a correlation.  

[marbel]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

But if we feel that we're hiding our real selves with those people because they won't accept us, we will still be lonely. Although there is definitely something to the idea that the more people you meet, the more likely it is you will find people who can accept you. 

I'm just riffing off this statement, not disagreeing with you because I think you are right, in some cases. But still, when I think about the reasons I've not been able to fit into groups and form good friendships, I think it's not because they are rejecting me for who I am, but for externalities.

For example, not fitting into homeschool groups when we moved to PA - when I met people, I was immediately determined to be: too religious, not religious enough, not the right religion; not rigorous enough in homeschooling, too rigorous, not relaxed enough, too relaxed.  So people judged my worthiness as a friend on that. But I was more than a homeschool mom, and more than my religion (or lack thereof). I'm shy but I am curious so I like to talk to people about their lives, food, books they read, places they've been, places they want to go...  but no one was interested. But it wasn't like they shunned me for who I actually am (my real self), they just weren't interested in finding out because I didn't fit the box they placed me in.

I am quite sure this happens to people all the time. Well, it happens in dating, right?  (He was a nice guy but not tall enough; she was a nice girl but I like blondes.) 

Edited May 7, 2023 by marbel

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I just learned about this book, Seek you: A Journey Through American Loneliness by Kristen Radtke. This is the Goodreads description:

I think this is getting at the idea that loneliness isn't being alone and Melissa Louise's insight about loneliness:

The recommendations to avoid loneliness are always about how to meet more people, be around people more frequently. But if we feel that we're hiding our real selves with those people because they won't accept us, we will still be lonely. Although there is definitely something to the idea that the more people you meet, the more likely it is you will find people who can accept you. 

But sometimes the problem isn't other people, it's our damage. It's hard to spend a long time with people who don't accept you and then be vulnerable with new people. 

And the reasons for hiding that 'real' self can be multiple, and not always ill-advised.

 

 

 

 

 

[itsheresomewhere]

4 hours ago, marbel said:

I'm just riffing off this statement, not disagreeing with you because I think you are right, in some cases. But still, when I think about the reasons I've not been able to fit into groups and form good friendships, I think it's not because they are rejecting me for who I am, but for externalities.

For example, not fitting into homeschool groups when we moved to PA - when I met people, I was immediately determined to be: too religious, not religious enough, not the right religion; not rigorous enough in homeschooling, too rigorous, not relaxed enough, too relaxed.  So people judged my worthiness as a friend on that. But I was more than a homeschool mom, and more than my religion (or lack thereof). I'm shy but I am curious so I like to talk to people about their lives, food, books they read, places they've been, places they want to go...  but no one was interested. But it wasn't like they shunned me for who I actually am (my real self), they just weren't interested in finding out because I didn't fit the box they placed me in.

I am quite sure this happens to people all the time. Well, it happens in dating, right?  (He was a nice guy but not tall enough; she was a nice girl but I like blondes.) 

This.  I signed DD for something that was offering classes and open to all about 2 years ago.  She wanted to meet new people and we thought it would be good.  What it turned out to be was nothing like that. Within the first 10 minutes of meeting both of us, they asked how we had our spiritual walk to Christ and what church we attended.  When I answered I felt that was a very personal question and we don’t attend one around here, we were immediately rejected from making any friendships. It was ridiculous that is how we were judged.  Not on who we really are.  In addition to that, DD and I wore something about Halloween so we were really shunned. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by itsheresomewhere

[wintermom]

6 hours ago, Terabith said:

1) Air conditioning - The rise of air conditioning is a major factor in increased loneliness, because it led to the destruction of sitting on front porches/ hanging out in yards during large parts of the year.  

Maybe so, but merciful heaven, it sure helps one sleep at night and then be able to talk non-jibberish to others! 😅

Edited May 8, 2023 by wintermom

[YaelAldrich]

My DH is a contributor to this paper. This is a part of what he studies and why he is in Australia now. It's a major issue, especially with modern "first world" societies. 

That being said,  I feel lonely most of the time.  I don't feel totally at home anywhere and there have been few people who have showed real loyalty in my life.  My oldest, historical friends are all but erased from my current life and so I feel adrift. Sigh. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by YaelAldrich

[KungFuPanda]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:47 PM, Faith-manor said:

There are a couple of conspiracy/mythological beliefs on this. One is that RH negative is reptile blood, thus lizard people. Another is that RH negative people are descendents of aliens from ancient times. The 3rd, and far more rare than the other two since it represents a very small religious group, is that people who have RH negative blood type are descendents of Nephillim who somehow survived the biblical flood.

 

I cannot get over you actually knowing real people who believe this stuff. That is wild!

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I cannot get over you actually knowing real people who believe this stuff. That is wild!

I unfortunately spent half of a high school football game next to a set of these people. Sigh. My niece was elected to homecoming court, and my brother was hospitalized. His whacky wife, sent her friends to take photos of niece for her because she didn't trust me to take any pics. It was insufferable. They kept asking me about my blood type, then explaining their insane beliefs and proselytizing me to join their gang of crazy. I was ever so thankful at half time to go help niece adjust her hair, and touch up her make up. I never went back to the bleachers, and instead ran to my car, fetched my lawn chair, and sat behind the sidelines with some band parents. My sister in law is absolutely freaky. She considers herself "a natural healing practitioner" and is anti-medicines except essential oils and whatever herbs she harvests, anti-vax, eat for your blood type, all kinds of stuff, and tells people to do very, very dangerous things with their health like starving their cancer. Literally, not eating and only drinking water for 21 days because that will cause the cancer to to die. She is going to get someone killed with her fruit loop ideas. She wanted to "cure" Mark's plantar fasciitis with a vitamin c poultice. We are very done with her and my brother. He has major thyroid disease, but she convinced him not to take his meds, and instead to take iodine drops. He is showing signs of iodine toxicity but keeps doing it. She will probably kill him.

My former boss in the community fine arts program had three separate run ins with flat earthers attempting to proselytize him. 

I think these folks move to this area because property values are so low. They can buy a few acres with a small barn and an old house for a song, and they tend to try to live self sufficiently. Lots of poverty among the folks with these beliefs. I am fairly certain that if we lived in an area with much higher property values, we would not run into so many or at least not ones openly proselytizing because if they needed a lot more money to live on, they would have to play well with others in order to keep a job.

There is a lady who goes to my mom's church who believes denim is the devil's fabric, and that demons inhabit all stuffed animals. She is very very hard to deal with in the church setting, but nothing is ever done about it. Though we do not attend, I have twice come across her path at the gas station, and she has tried to force her pamphlets on me.

It gets old. 

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I unfortunately spent half of a high school football game next to a set of these people. Sigh. My niece was elected to homecoming court, and my brother was hospitalized. His whacky wife, sent her friends to take photos of niece for her because she didn't trust me to take any pics. It was insufferable. They kept asking me about my blood type, then explaining their insane beliefs and proselytizing me to join their gang of crazy. I was ever so thankful at half time to go help niece adjust her hair, and touch up her make up. I never went back to the bleachers, and instead ran to my car, fetched my lawn chair, and sat behind the sidelines with some band parents. My sister in law is absolutely freaky. She considers herself "a natural healing practitioner" and is anti-medicines except essential oils and whatever herbs she harvests, anti-vax, eat for your blood type, all kinds of stuff, and tells people to do very, very dangerous things with their health like starving their cancer. Literally, not eating and only drinking water for 21 days because that will cause the cancer to to die. She is going to get someone killed with her fruit loop ideas. She wanted to "cure" Mark's plantar fasciitis with a vitamin c poultice. We are very done with her and my brother. He has major thyroid disease, but she convinced him not to take his meds, and instead to take iodine drops. He is showing signs of iodine toxicity but keeps doing it. She will probably kill him.

My former boss in the community fine arts program had three separate run ins with flat earthers attempting to proselytize him. 

I think these folks move to this area because property values are so low. They can buy a few acres with a small barn and an old house for a song, and they tend to try to live self sufficiently. Lots of poverty among the folks with these beliefs. I am fairly certain that if we lived in an area with much higher property values, we would not run into so many or at least not ones openly proselytizing because if they needed a lot more money to live on, they would have to play well with others in order to keep a job.

There is a lady who goes to my mom's church who believes denim is the devil's fabric, and that demons inhabit all stuffed animals. She is very very hard to deal with in the church setting, but nothing is ever done about it. Though we do not attend, I have twice come across her path at the gas station, and she has tried to force her pamphlets on me.

It gets old. 

Man.  You shouldn't drink the water in your area.  Holy cow.  Bottled water, all the way.  

[Faith-manor]

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Man.  You shouldn't drink the water in your area.  Holy cow.  Bottled water, all the way.  

😂😂😂.Ya sometimes I am scared! But most areas of Michigan are not this crazy. So don't let it scare you off from the state.

[frogger]

6 hours ago, marbel said:

I'm just riffing off this statement, not disagreeing with you because I think you are right, in some cases. But still, when I think about the reasons I've not been able to fit into groups and form good friendships, I think it's not because they are rejecting me for who I am, but for externalities.

For example, not fitting into homeschool groups when we moved to PA - when I met people, I was immediately determined to be: too religious, not religious enough, not the right religion; not rigorous enough in homeschooling, too rigorous, not relaxed enough, too relaxed.  So people judged my worthiness as a friend on that. But I was more than a homeschool mom, and more than my religion (or lack thereof). I'm shy but I am curious so I like to talk to people about their lives, food, books they read, places they've been, places they want to go...  but no one was interested. But it wasn't like they shunned me for who I actually am (my real self), they just weren't interested in finding out because I didn't fit the box they placed me in.

I am quite sure this happens to people all the time. Well, it happens in dating, right?  (He was a nice guy but not tall enough; she was a nice girl but I like blondes.) 

Just jumping off from your fitting in a box comment.

 

I think America has become very tribal. People have to first know if you are part of their tribe before they can even start to get to know you as a person to see if you would be a good friend. They don't know how many great people they are missing out on because they do that. 

I do think it comes from insecurity though. They cannot be with someone different than them because that might cause friction or challenge their view of the world but I have always found that the best friends I have are the ones who are loyal even if we disagree. We might argue but they are more important than the argument. We might need to apologize but that is when you know they are real friends. 

Relationships are hard and yet valuable. They are worth the pain. 

That being said, I also feel for those who have been severely hurt and can understand why someone wants to climb in their shell and hole up. Maybe they don't want to be seen, but then again they do want to be really seen again but not hurt but loved despite being different.  So I do get it, this wanting to know someone agrees with you on everything before trusting them. 

I can't do that regardless. I'd be a box of 1. Lol

Edited May 8, 2023 by frogger

[frogger]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'll repeat what I wrote above. It's not about wanting to associate only with those who agree. How can you be friends with someone who doesn't respect you and actually wants to hurt you? 

I cannot be friends with someone who believes that my DD, my nieces, and all their friends should not have control over their bodies, or worse should be imprisoned for exercising control over their bodies. We can be civil but I don't trust you enough to be a friend. 

People will insist that they have gay friends even though they believe homosexuality is a sin. Do they see you as a friend or someone that they tolerate and hope will get better? (general you) 

Every few weeks some story gets published about how young women won't date men who voted for a certain political candidate. I would never date someone who voted for that candidate. That makes people defensive, I know I voted for that candidate but I respect you! That's not how it works. Don't expect me to consider you a friend if you are trying to advance policies that hurt me and the people I love. 

I think some of the people complaining about this don't want to accept the consequences of what they support. 

 

If someone is being abusive to you (verbal, snide remarks, whatever) than no, you should protect your child most definitly by stepping away but if they are just voting differently than I personally wouldn't. I do not see how we can influence anyone that way.

That does not mean you personally have to follow my conscience (you ought to follow your own) but I have to care about others even if they disagree with me. 

There are also different levels of intimacy. If you get to know more people, that does not mean you should completely trust and pour out your heart to them and depend on them. That is saved for just a few of your closest friends or your spouse, people you really really trust. 

 

ETA- You do realize I was jumping off a post that was about homeschooling the right way, being religious enough,etc.  There are certainly things that would be too much. If were a child molester I would want to point them out as dangerous to my kids and not hang out with them for example.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by frogger

[ScoutTN]

Just musing.

I wonder if loneliness is really more prevalent than it used to be, or if we are just more self-analytical and aware of it? (and post it all in the web!) Are we seeing the past with too-rosy glasses?  Are people really any different than they were 50, 200, or 1500 years ago? The details of culture change and technology certainly does, but human nature does not. I think loneliness is part of the human condition in this fallen world.
 

Some of us have a bigger share of this struggle than others and some of us have more ability to cope than others, but we all experience it to some degree.
 

Agreeing with pp that cultural patterns of community and gathering (or lack thereof) can affect it, but that many people are very lonely despite having decent social skills and people to be with. It’s an internal thing. 
 

I remember times when I desperately longed for a “kindred spirit” sort of friend, and didn’t have one. I think many people feel un-understood and alone despite having basically healthy family and work/school/community relationships. 

[frogger]

3 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

 

Agreeing with pp that cultural patterns of community and gathering (or lack thereof) can affect it, but that many people are very lonely despite having decent social skills and people to be with. It’s an internal thing. 
 

 

I agree somewhat. That certainly is true for many  but I have to say my kids struggled in ways I didn't at their age. I also had time to walk through the woods and ponder life, but that did not produce anxiety, lonliness, depression, etc. I don't know that I found a kindred spirit but I could at least talk to people.

I would actually say most kids have less, not more time to ponder and think about things at least in my circles. Extra curriculars and busy and stressful times abound in my circles.

 

Perhaps it was because of homeschooling. We always tried to be out in the community and meeting people but the older two especially,  always seemed isolated. It wasn't just internal; it was definitly an external struggle. They often reached out and were often rejected. Supposedly everyone was just busy but maybe that was an excuse. 🤷‍♀️

I do know that for both, college has been a huge relief and I am thankful both went. It does congregate people in a way that the rest of the world doesn't. 

[ScoutTN]

@frogger Yes. I was not saying that loneliness is only internal, just that it can be internal when external circumstances seem opportune for relationship. 
 

Agreeing that the pace of life is not helpful. Nor is the fact that many people have less outside time.

[Clarita]

This also hit me yesterday. 

I've been doing a "connection group" (similar to a Bible study group but we dig into the weekly sermons instead of The Bible), originally it was to hopefully find some friendships for my husband. Yesterday's group didn't jive with me, the other time I went it was a larger group so it was easier to not be annoyed. I don't feel lonely; I have enough close friends and enough good friends and enough villages. Now I'm like to we continue going or not. Do I have some sort of obligation to help other people not feel lonely or if I'm good can I just rest happy with the people I feel happy with?

On the husband front he is actually in a much better place compared to when we first decided to join the group. He has found friends through some other activities. Then, there are also definitely lonely people in the group and I'm sorry to say but some of those people are also the people that make me not want to be in this group.