What do I say?

[Home'scool]

My oldest dd (27 yo) has been estranged from me for 11 months now. I say she is estranged from me because she chose to walk away from the relationship. There are a lot of reasons, etc., but in my mind, none of them warranted her cutting off the relationship. We did therapy, etc., but nothing helped.

She has moved across country from me. When it is mother's day she will send a text that just says "happy mothers day" but that is it. My birthday is coming up in a few days and I am assuming I will receive another generic "happy birthday" text.

I want to respond and say "How dare you? How can you not talk to me for 11 months! Where do you get off with that level of disrespect??"

I know she has her side and her reasons, but I know I do not deserve this level of behavior. It breaks my heart but I am also so mad!

I just don't know how to react if she texts me. Do I just keep going along like this? How do I say "I love you and want to have a relationship with you, but my heart is starting to close to you...."

Just typing this makes me cry. 

[JustEm]

Hugs, that must be difficult.

You say thank you and ask how she is doing, what is new with her, etc. Keep it lite and positive.  Try to open the conversation don't shut it down by making it about her decision to distance herself.  I don't know what caused her to need distance but telling her she is disrespectful for not talking to you will only hurt the chances of healing even more.

 

[HomeAgain]

There's not much you can do.

My own mother could have written your post, minus any sort of contact.    I can sort of see both sides here, but your best bet is a moderate approach and letting the relationship develop (or not) organically.

"Happy mother's day"

"Thank you!  I hope your day is going well!"

"Happy birthday"

"Thank you!  I'm excited to do XYZ today!"

 

You cannot move things along or create a response that will force what you want.  The most you can do is be open to more contact.

 

((Hugs))  I hope the holiday season holds some peace for you this year.

[catz]

At the end of the day, you can only control yourself.  Adult children really do not owe us anything.  You hope for a relationship but who knows.  Based on some of your previous posts, snapping on her will likely just shut down any communication.  Which is ok if that's what you want.  But at least there are small lines of communication open that might lead to more later if you are open to it.  

I hope you have some fun on your birthday.  ❤️  

[gardenmom5]

I'm sorry.  Give her her space.  I know it's hard.  But you'll have better luck by keeping your hand out and doing things that show you still love her (eta: do not make demands on her), than telling her how unreasonable she is.

My eldest has also walked away.  1ds currently lives with her, has heard everything she's had to say - and thinks she's completely unreasonable.  (2ds sees her every week at an activity with mutual friends, and asked me how I got so lucky . . . )  Dh has been able to talk (sit and listen) to her a few times, and that is keeping lines open.

Edited November 9, 2022 by gardenmom5

[marbel]

I'm sorry; this must be so hard. I understand the temptation to respond indignantly, but as others have said, it will not lead to reconciliation. If you want the possibility of healing the relationship, respond with love but no pressure, as others have indicated. "Thank you! I love and miss you, hope you are well" or similar. 

💗

[saraha]

All good advice, just want to say I’m sorry that you are hurting.

[gardenmom5]

I just want to add - she's sending you "happy mother's day" text.  She may or may not send you a "happy birthday" text.  That she does - indicates she wants contact.  Kids who cut contact have a lot of hurt feelings before reaching that point.   It's now up to you - do you accept what she's willing to offer (opening the door to the possibility of more later), or get angry because it's not what you want now?   

[Innisfree]

I can hear how much this situation hurts you.

Despite that, no matter who you feel is to blame, don’t punish her for reaching out. Those brief contacts are your only chance to demonstrate who you are right now, and how much love you feel for her. If you respond negatively to her efforts, she’ll be less likely to continue even minimal contact. It’s the old “beatings will continue until morale improves”— don’t beat her up when she’s showing, even in the smallest way, that she does care about you. Reward her olive twigs with love and understanding; slowly, if she trusts you, they might grow. At the least, you can keep the door cracked open for the future.

If you are angry, or need to vent, or want to gain perspective, do that in another setting. Continuing therapy for you, solo, would be appropriate, but talking to a friend might help.

 I would urge you not to vent to people who will uncritically reinforce your anger. If you want to change the situation with your daughter, don’t let yourself become entrenched in bitterness. Make your love for her your highest priority. 

I’m sorry you’re facing this. Milestones like birthdays and holidays are so painful when family relationships are tortured. I hope you can find some comfort in the fact that your dd clearly doesn’t want to cut off all contact. That offers hope for the future.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Innisfree

[purpleowl]

"Thank you. I love you."

[SKL]

I agree with "thank you, I love you."

[Catwoman]

53 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

My oldest dd (27 yo) has been estranged from me for 11 months now. I say she is estranged from me because she chose to walk away from the relationship. There are a lot of reasons, etc., but in my mind, none of them warranted her cutting off the relationship. We did therapy, etc., but nothing helped.

She has moved across country from me. When it is mother's day she will send a text that just says "happy mothers day" but that is it. My birthday is coming up in a few days and I am assuming I will receive another generic "happy birthday" text.

I want to respond and say "How dare you? How can you not talk to me for 11 months! Where do you get off with that level of disrespect??"

I know she has her side and her reasons, but I know I do not deserve this level of behavior. It breaks my heart but I am also so mad!

I just don't know how to react if she texts me. Do I just keep going along like this? How do I say "I love you and want to have a relationship with you, but my heart is starting to close to you...."

Just typing this makes me cry. 

The problem here is that your dd does believe that you deserve this level of behavior, and it's not like she hasn't had therapy to try to work through it, so could there be some validity to her feelings? It seems like you're saying that you know there are some serious issues, but you don't feel that you deserve this lack of a relationship with her, and while I sympathize with you because you obviously love her very much, you are kind of minimizing the validity of her feelings when you get defensive. 

Also, if you say anything like, "...but my heart is starting to close to you," you can probably kiss the relationship goodbye forever. That kind of statement comes across a little spiteful and it seems more like a threat than a declaration of love.

I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to be mean to you. It's just that I'm concerned that you might let your anger get the better of you, and this isn't a fight you can win with anger. This is a situation where you'll probably need time and a lot of baby-steps to rekindle the relationship.

The one positive here is that she still remembers to contact you on important holidays. If she didn't still love you, she wouldn't bother texting you. What happens when you respond to her texts with a friendly, casual question? Does she just ignore you? I certainly wouldn't be trying to start a serious conversation via text when you're already estranged. Also, do you text her or call her at all, or might she feel like she's the only one making an effort? What are you doing on her birthday or on other holidays? Are you making an effort? Do you send her cards or gifts, or call her to chat?

Edited November 9, 2022 by Catwoman
typo!

[pinball]

33 minutes ago, catz said:

At the end of the day, you can only control yourself.  Adult children really do not owe us anything.  You hope for a relationship but who knows.  Based on some of your previous posts, snapping on her will likely just shut down any communication.  Which is ok if that's what you want.  But at least there are small lines of communication open that might lead to more later if you are open to it.  

I hope you have some fun on your birthday.  ❤️  

Relationships are not transactional. “I did this so you owe me” so very shallow and says nothing about how parent-child relationship actually take place.

 

[mlktwins]

I would just acknowledge any texts like that with a thank you and that is it.

I wouldn’t ask how she is doing or anything at this point.  I certainly wouldn’t lash out although I totally get where you are coming from (HUGS).

I’m sorry as I know this is hard on you!

[bolt.]

These small texts are important opportunities to demonstrate in real time that you are becoming (or have become) someone who can be 'trusted with small things'. Can you be trusted to mind your manners, be kind, and show restraint, and demonstrate respect for your daughter and her choices? Can you demonstrate those things, one text at a time, in this super minor very boundaried style of interaction?

Your daughter is checking whether you can or can't.

And based on what you have shared about your inner feelings of how you would maybe like to respond, I think it's okay to say... it seems like she might be right to be testing those waters. It sounds like maybe you can, and maybe you can't do what it takes to demonstrate safe waters for her right now.

I say that because, from what you wrote it's maybe like you could be right on the edge of responding, "No I don't respect your choice to be distant from me in order to be healthy. I think it's an unjust act of mistreatment towards me. I'd love an opportunity to reprimand you for it, and possibly punish you or reject our remaining relationship ties: so if you open up communication any further, that's exactly what I'm likely to do with that opportunity."

So I agree with giving her a brief polite response, and giving her some more time.

Because from what I'm reading she is not the only one who needs more time. It sounds like you need time too. Because (before you have any hope of a restored or remotely healthy relationship) you need to forgive her for choosing estrangement and prioritizing her own wellbeing over the relationship between you. And that takes time. (And probably help. Maybe it's time to restart therapy for you?)

Edited November 9, 2022 by bolt.

[Corraleno]

I've been estranged from my mother for decades, and was No Contact for a very long time. She's now in her 80s and few years ago my sister begged me to at least contact her, so I sent her a text saying "Happy Mother's Day." She replied "Thank you, that made my day!" So the following Christmas I texted "Merry Christmas" and again she replied thank you plus some chat about my sister's family, with whom she was spending the holidays. Then in January she sent me a happy new year text and asked some questions about the kids, and I sent some general details. Now she texts me every few months, usually asking about the kids, and I generally reply politely. If that first Happy Mother's Day text had gotten a reply like "how dare you shut me out all these years, I did nothing wrong, I don't deserve this kind of disrespect," that would 100% ensure permanent No Contact.

I have also been on the other side of this, with a teen DD who decided I was the worst mother on earth and was ruining her life and she couldn't wait to move out. Barely spoke to me even when she was living here and moved in with her boyfriend the minute she turned 18. I didn't get any Mother's Day or birthday texts, although she stopped by on Christmas Eve to pick up her presents and said Merry Christmas. I did give her birthday and Christmas presents, even for the birthday when she moved out, and continued to help financially, with college classes, etc. Anyway, after a year and a half she broke up with the boyfriend (temporarily, alas) and moved back home, although she was obviously not super happy about being home. But she's settled in and now we have a great relationship; for Mother's Day she gave me a present and a card saying she was lucky to have a great mom like me. She even got me a birthday present and card, for the first time ever, and yesterday she gave me an early Christmas present that she found and thought I would love. We would not have the relationship we have now if I'd somehow made her "pay" for the times she treated me disrespectfully. Obviously I don't think I deserved that treatment, but punishing someone for their feelings is never helpful or productive.

[Home'scool]

Thank you for all the kind responses. I see a pattern of answers and I do understand what you all are saying. I will just keep it to a simple response, vent elsewhere, and hope for better in the future. 
Ugh, but thank you ❤️

[Shelydon]

"Thank you for touching base.  I love you. "

[Tanaqui]

The only justification any adult needs for leaving a relationship with another adult is the desire to end or limit the relationship.

I don't know what your daughter's reasons were. I don't need to. Her desire to limit contact with you is enough. You don't need to agree.

I know this is blunt, but it's the truth. You do not need to agree with your daughter. She is the only person who can judge whether or not her reasons for her behavior are valid. You can't do that. I can't do that. A therapist can't do that. She is the only one who can do that.

If you want her to consider the possibility of expanding contact in the future, I strongly recommend you take all your messy feelings to your therapist, and otherwise respect her desire to keep her distance for now.

[Jaybee]

I'm so sorry you are hurting. I know the temptation to lash out, but I agree with the others. I wouldn't ask any questions or anything, for ex., "Hope you are doing well" instead of "How are you doing these days?" For me, the general rule is to take what they offer, and respond in kind as far as general length of response message and tone. It sounds like you would like to have a real heart-to-heart and put everything on the table. I understand that, because it distresses me greatly to have shallow relationships and have misunderstandings/unresolved issues within the family. But she isn't there, and likely won't ever be to that point. If you hold onto the hurt and feelings of unfairness hoping that one day she will be ready for that heart-to-heart so that you can express your feelings, that isn't healthy for you, and may build up even more hurt toward her. I've had relationships where I had to let go of my hurt, and let go of my hopes and expectations for the relationship. This was a process and didn't happen overnight, but starting that process was a clear decision. It involved deciding to accept the situation (and the person) where it was rather than where I wished it was, and realize that the person was unable to fill those expectations I had, for whatever reason. When I let go of the expectations, I was able to move into a less fraught relationship with the person. I had to look elsewhere to fulfill those needs for closeness. 

[HomeAgain]

2 hours ago, purpleowl said:

"Thank you. I love you."

Just the first one I saw to quote..

Do not do this.  Just don't.  Seriously. 

The only thing that a person can respond to this is emotionally charged.  That's not fair and it's not right to create that expectation with an estranged person.

Give them something they can make more decision on how/what to respond:

-a kind reciprication

-another detail about your day

-something neutral to share

You want to develop a relationship again, not throw up unwanted words into their lap.  Saying "I love you" will get you guaranteed silence because it is kinder to ignore than deal with the messiness that this feeling involves.  If you give them something more neutral, they can decide if they want to respond to it, ask more questions, or ignore.  That's 3 options to the sad one that "I love you" will definitely elicit.

[KSera]

10 hours ago, bolt. said:

“No I don't respect your choice to be distant from me in order to be healthy. I think it's an unjust act of mistreatment towards me.”

 

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I have also been on the other side of this, with a teen DD who decided I was the worst mother on earth and was ruining her life and she couldn't wait to move out.

Just juxtaposing these two to say that the going “no contact” thing is such a big thing with young people right now that I don’t think it’s always helpful to think of it as something that is helping them be emotionally healthy, as very often it does the opposite as they alienate themselves from what is their strongest support system. I have seen this happen and the young person is not really healthy until they eventually move past the “no contact” thing and reconnect and are able to get that support they need again.

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Obviously I don't think I deserved that treatment, but punishing someone for their feelings is never helpful or productive.

At the same time, I one hundred percent agree with this and don’t think there’s a whole lot you can do but remain open and friendly and respectful of them. The tricky line is figuring out how not to be a doormat yourself while respecting their feelings and wishes. If your adult child isn’t making any demands on you while at the same time cutting you off, then that’s probably not too difficult.
 

Edited November 10, 2022 by KSera
replaced the word "fad" with "thing" because it was a distraction

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 Also, do you text her or call her at all,  

You're assuming she hasn't been blocked.   A person can send a text from their phone, and still be blocked from receiving texts from your phone.
I can see the texts 1dd sends to sibling group chats (always started by a member of the sibling group) - but she never responds to mine.  Dh and I both strongly suspect we're blocked from her phone - and 1ds who lives with her - thinks so too.  (I have barely asked him anything about her, as I don't want him to be in the middle.)

 

OP - a friend of mine has said for years, everyone goes through every stage in life - might be in a different order, and it might be later in life, but they go through it.   Teenagers are known for exerting their independence and pushing away from their parents.  Some are pretty extreme about it, for whatever reason.   It's part of the maturation process.  
and that would explain why when I was a teen - I felt like my mother's behavior was of a rebellious teenager against her mother.  Never mind she was in her 40s . . . 

[bolt.]

53 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

Just juxtaposing these two to say that the going “no contact” thing is such a big thing with young people right now that I don’t think it’s always helpful to think of it as something that is helping them be emotionally healthy, as very often it does the opposite as they alienate themselves from what is their strongest support system. I have seen this happen and the young person is not really healthy until they eventually move past the “no contact” fad and reconnect and are able to get that support they need again.

At the same time, I one hundred percent agree with this and don’t think there’s a whole lot you can do but remain open and friendly and respectful of them. The tricky line is figuring out how not to be a doormat yourself while respecting their feelings and wishes. If your adult child isn’t making any demands on you while at the same time cutting you off, then that’s probably not too difficult.
 

I agree, in a way, that there is no way to be sure that the actual no-contact situation is actually helping them be emotionally healthy.

However, "respect" means that we see someone's own motives and/or intentions as sufficient and complete reasons that fully justify their choices and actions, and we are supportive of their autonomy to take those actions for those reasons -- regardless of whether we, or some omniscient narrator might believe them to be effective or ineffective. Respect means that we regard that person as 'most likely to be the best expert' on what is going to work for them: or at least more likely to be better at assessing that than we-observers are. They are a 'kingdom of one' -- their judgement *rightly* and *solely* rules their decisions.

Sometimes that assumption turns out to be wrong, and our own instincts turn out to be right. Because life is full of curve balls. But to have assumed that from the outset is disrespectful because it is rooted in hubris: that 'my' wisdom is more likely to be relevant to 'your' experiences than your wisdom is, therefore 'your' actions should be guided or constrained by 'my' evaluation.

(Yes, sometimes we do use our wisdom to evaluate other people, and in many cases (especially if they seek advice) we do seek to add our influence to another person's decisions. As a society, or a subculture sometimes we do this collectively. But when we do that, we need to know that it isn't fully 100% respectful. We need to expect pushback when we engage in disrespect. Some situations, such as estranged children, call for scrupulous respect as a foundation for healing. Learning to think in respectful terms like, 'You are the expert of your own life' is a precursor to being able to act from scrupulous respect.)

Edited November 9, 2022 by bolt.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Just juxtaposing these two to say that the going “no contact” thing is such a big thing with young people right now that I don’t think it’s always helpful to think of it as something that is helping them be emotionally healthy, as very often it does the opposite as they alienate themselves from what is their strongest support system. I have seen this happen and the young person is not really healthy until they eventually move past the “no contact” fad and reconnect and are able to get that support they need again.

I don't think anyone goes fully no contact from a parent or relative who really would be their strongest support system. Sometimes the person who is being cut off may believe they are loving and supportive, without recognizing that it comes with (or at least is perceived as coming with) conditions: "if only you would listen to me and behave the way I think you should." I didn't go no contact with my mother, despite a childhood filled with every kind of abuse, until she really crossed a line when I was in my late 20s. The immediate relief I felt from that decision was profound, and I wished I'd done it years earlier.

Even in DD's case, though, where I think her reasons for wanting distance were not based in reality, I do think that ultimately the distance was heathy for her and it did us both good. She wasn't no contact, though, just low contact, but we still texted about rent payments and college classes and such, and she would occasionally swing by to "borrow" the dog for a few days, lol. But I think the distance and independence were critical for her to realize that "getting away from me" didn't solve all her problems or make her life better the way she thought it would, and living with her boyfriend turned out to be far from the utopia she naively expected. She really did need that year and a half to get some distance and see things more clearly, even if the anger that motivated it may have been misplaced. Some kids don't want advice and just need to figure things out for themselves, even if it means they have to learn everything the hard way. Eventually DD learned that I would always be there for her, even when she was really unpleasant to be around, and the end result is all that matters to me. I have no interest in demanding an apology for the way she acted before or during that learning process, I'm just so happy and grateful that she got to where she is now.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Corraleno

[gardenmom5]

49 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I agree, in a way, that there is no way to be sure that the actual no-contact situation is actually helping them be emotionally healthy.

However, "respect" means that we see someone's own motives and/or intentions as sufficient and complete reasons that fully justify their choices and actions, and we are supportive of their autonomy to take those actions for those reasons -- regardless of whether we, or some omniscient narrator might believe them to be effective or ineffective.  

 Some situations, such as estranged children, call for scrupulous respect as a foundation for healing.  

This. 

Respect means we recognize they are an independent adult, and we acknowledge they have the right to make their own choices. 

Even if we dont' agree with them. (we don't have to agree with their choices - but we can still treat them with dignity and respect.) 

If we don't, we are insinuating that they are not capable of making rational choices for themselves and still need someone else to set boundaries from the big bad world for them.  That is profoundly disrespectful towards another adult.

 

[Tanaqui]

There is no "going no contact fad". That's absurd, and honestly, I give a serious side-eye to anybody who thinks that there *is* such a fad.

[scholastica]

It sounds like you are incredibly hurt by this behavior. That desire to reply in anger is because lots of us convert hurt into anger. If you haven’t been “allowed” to feel hurt and get that acknowledged, apologized for and reconciled in past relationships, you are likely doing this. It becomes automatic. So, when you feel that anger, retrain your brain to acknowledge that you’re actually hurt and feel that hurt. Then try to forgive the person so you don’t convert that to anger before you interact with them. You and your daughters have been through a lot. Remember their wonderful qualities, see the best in them and love them there in those things. It will take a lot of healing all around for these relationships to be healthy. If you are not in individual therapy, please consider getting into it. There are reasons you married who you did and stayed as long as you did. You deserved better.

[Ausmumof3]

I can’t remember if you’re Christian or not, so forgive me if not but I think the analogy still stands a bit. These situations remind me of the prodigal son parable. You can be like the father or you can be like the elder son. 

[momto3innc]

“Thanks so much for thinking of me! I’m heading out for a fun lunch for my birthday. I hope you’re doing well—how is (something neutral like a job or class) going? I hope (pet or roommate or significant other) is well.  Love you—have a great day!” 
 

I’d do something like this. Upbeat, cheerful, small question that she can respond to if she chooses. Lots of simple kindness over time  with hopes that there can be reconciliation in the future.

[KSera]

31 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

There is no "going no contact fad". That's absurd, and honestly, I give a serious side-eye to anybody who thinks that there *is* such a fad.

I 100% believe you haven’t seen it, which makes sense you wouldn’t think it was a thing if you hadn’t seen it. One of my young adults who got temporarily caught up in it (never went no contact, but low contact for a few months, and then got away from the friends who caused it) absolutely sees this and talks about it being a thing that’s big in some friend circles. You can give us the side eye, I’m just reporting from the trenches what we’re seeing around us. 

[gardenmom5]

24 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I can’t remember if you’re Christian or not, so forgive me if not but I think the analogy still stands a bit. These situations remind me of the prodigal son parable. You can be like the father or you can be like the elder son. 

I came from a dysfunctional background - and I can see a whole different side to this parable that made me relate to the older son in a way that is not obvious, that really wasn't the message the parable was meant to give.  I was the kid who followed the rules - I was also the scapegoat.  (she was the runaway, drug user, shoplifter, had been pregnant twice before she was 20 . . . - but she was given ALL the perks well into adulthood, and I was ignored and finally expected to bail her out of her messes at the expense of my own children (I refused).  In the end - I take comfort I didn't sell my soul for a mess of potage.) 

It took me years of deliberate work to be able to read the parable as given and disassociate the meaning of it from my relationship with my dysfunctional family.

People do have different backgrounds that colors their perspectives, and we need to also keep that in mind when saying things like "you can be like the father or the elder son."

[gardenmom5]

13 minutes ago, KSera said:

I 100% believe you haven’t seen it, which makes sense you wouldn’t think it was a thing if you hadn’t seen it. One of my young adults who got temporarily caught up in it (never went no contact, but low contact for a few months, and then got away from the friends who caused it) absolutely sees this and talks about it being a thing that’s big in some friend circles. You can give us the side eye, I’m just reporting from the trenches what we’re seeing around us. 

This.  My friends (my dh grew up with the wife's family, and we have been friends with them for 35 years) dd followed her ex-husband off the deep end with poor life choices . . . and into no contact with both sets of parents.   It has slowly gotten better, and since she has divorced her ex it has significantly improved - and they are the biggest supporters for her.  

 

we also need to keep in mind - abusers will separate their victims from friends and family (re: no/low contact) so their victim will feel there is no one to whom they can turn when they realize they are up a creek.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

we also need to keep in mind - abusers will separate their victims from friends and family (re: no/low contact) so their victim will feel there is no one to whom they can turn when they realize they are up a creek.

QFT

[gardenmom5]

45 minutes ago, KSera said:

QFT

what does that mean?

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

what does that mean?

Quoted for Truth

I was agreeing with you on the way abusers separate their targets from friends and family.

[Melissa Louise]

Dd2 and I are lowish contact ATM after a big Christmas blow up where we were both/neither at fault. 

The best gift I can give her is her space. I do message now and then, and get replies, and have seen her several times this year, but I'm very committed to allowing her to handle life and relationships her way. 

All relationships are a dance, and sometimes the partners in the dance need a break. You can lovingly engage with it, and even find positives in it. 

I'd reply, t'hanks hon, I appreciate the thought. Hope all's well. Love you. ' and leave it at that.

Angry feelings are for exploring in a journal, with trusted friends, or a therapist..

Good luck. Adult children relationships aren't always the easiest. 

 

 

[pinball]

54 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

what does that mean?

Quite Fine Thinking (IOW, this is a good post)

Queso Fundido Time (IOW, hey, you’re smart so let’s eat cheese together)

Qualms Finally Thwarted (IOW, everything you wrote gives me peace)

 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I came from a dysfunctional background - and I can see a whole different side to this parable that made me relate to the older son in a way that is not obvious, that really wasn't the message the parable was meant to give.  I was the kid who followed the rules - I was also the scapegoat.  (she was the runaway, drug user, shoplifter, had been pregnant twice before she was 20 . . . - but she was given ALL the perks well into adulthood, and I was ignored and finally expected to bail her out of her messes at the expense of my own children (I refused).  In the end - I take comfort I didn't sell my soul for a mess of potage.) 

It took me years of deliberate work to be able to read the parable as given and disassociate the meaning of it from my relationship with my dysfunctional family.

People do have different backgrounds that colors their perspectives, and we need to also keep that in mind when saying things like "you can be like the father or the elder son."

I don’t think in that example you were being like the elder brother though at all. The welcome home occurred when the prodigal son came back and put his past behind him not while he was still engaging in those behaviours. I can see how that message could come across wrong though. I didn’t see that in the OP however as the relationships are different.

[Melissa Louise]

I remembered I also wanted to offer a reframe. 

I am proud of dd's fire and ability to draw boundaries, including with me!

That is something I'm struggling with at more than twice her age. It's actually a really good skill, and I do give myself credit for acknowledging and respecting it in her, and for not keeping her emeshed in guilt.

I honestly would rather never see her and know she was happy and content, than see her and know it was because I was manipulating them or guilting them into it, or that they were scared to say no.

So finding what there is to admire in your daughter's ability to choose contact can, imo, be helpful and relieving to both of you .

 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

KSera, I haven't seen it because it's not a thing. "Fad" implies something widespread. Are there maybe a few people who do this? Sure. There's always somebody, after all. But the existence of somebody somewhere does not a fad make - and even if it is a hasty decision made because of bad advice or abuse, in the end, the proper action by the parents is the same: respect your child and their right to make their own life choices. That means do NOT send them mean messages.

[KSera]

28 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

KSera, I haven't seen it because it's not a thing. "Fad" implies something widespread. Are there maybe a few people who do this? Sure. There's always somebody, after all. But the existence of somebody somewhere does not a fad make - and even if it is a hasty decision made because of bad advice or abuse, in the end, the proper action by the parents is the same: respect your child and their right to make their own life choices. That means do NOT send them mean messages.

We're in agreement about the bottom line, as I said in my original post in this thread: I would absolutely not send mean messages, I would keep things light and friendly and not push anything. I'm not going to argue about the other bit, because it's really not pertinent to this thread and I trust my kid that what they tell me is very common among their various online social groups is. They're not known for being a liar.

Edited November 10, 2022 by KSera

[Not_a_Number]

12 hours ago, Home'scool said:

How do I say "I love you and want to have a relationship with you, but my heart is starting to close to you...."

You know, this gives me a hint about where the issues with your DD might be coming from. 

Messages like this should be saved for when you're ACTUALLY close to being willing to end the relationship. They should never be said in anger. It's not an actual statement of your feelings. Any attempt to communicate something like that will make your daughter resentful and make her feel like you're pushing her and ignoring her perspective. 

My mom is very fond of saying things like this. I took a break on talking to her about 5 years ago and we've been low-ish contact ever since (we text and don't call and we don't visit much). It's been good for me. 

[Melissa Louise]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

You know, this gives me a hint about where the issues with your DD might be coming from. 

Messages like this should be saved for when you're ACTUALLY close to being willing to end the relationship. They should never be said in anger. It's not an actual statement of your feelings. Any attempt to communicate something like that will make your daughter resentful and make her feel like you're pushing her and ignoring her perspective. 

My mom is very fond of saying things like this. I took a break on talking to her about 5 years ago and we've been low-ish contact ever since (we text and don't call and we don't visit much). It's been good for me. 

Yeah, best to just get on with loving them without commentary, whether that's at a distance or close up.

That's what unconditional love is. It doesn't rely on them giving you what you need. You just love them because you do. 

(Mothers who have not been sainted, ahem, may need to process this with a trusted other who is NOT the adult child in order to be able to get to feel the love under the hurt or the anger). 

There's a lot of backstory here for OP, much of which she isn't responsible for, and I understand why the daughter going low contact would be hard to handle emotionally. But really, this is an easy path because there's only one useful option - radical acceptance. 

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

Quoted for Truth

I was agreeing with you on the way abusers separate their targets from friends and family.

I looked it up - but figured it didn't mean "quantum field theory" . . . . . 😜

 

or question formulation technique . . .

[gardenmom5]

13 hours ago, Home'scool said:

  How do I say "I love you and want to have a relationship with you, but my heart is starting to close to you...."

 

if you really want to have a relationship with her - you don't ever say the last part. that would shut the door.

Keep yourself open to what she's currently comfortable with giving to keep the door open.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

There's a lot of backstory here for OP, much of which she isn't responsible for, and I understand why the daughter going low contact would be hard to handle emotionally. But really, this is an easy path because there's only one useful option - radical acceptance. 

Yes, I've been reading up on it (going through old threads.) It does sound like a really tough situation 😕 . I'm sorry, OP. 

[pinball]

Family estrangement is higher than it used to be. It’s been said 1 in 4 people report a level of family estrangement.

is FE the same as going no contact? Not necessarily. 
 

but if the reports of increases are accurate, I’d bet that there is a social spread component.

[hshibley]

28 minutes ago, pinball said:

Family estrangement is higher than it used to be. It’s been said 1 in 4 people report a level of family estrangement.

is FE the same as going no contact? Not necessarily. 
 

but if the reports of increases are accurate, I’d bet that there is a social spread component.

I wonder how much of it is a social spread component vs how easy it is to keep in contact with people (which for some may be more contact than they want). 
 

I remember doing a little internet research on Laura Ingles Wilder and reading about how after they left the big woods for good they never saw their grandparents again. (Not that they wanted to go no contact obviously) It just really struck me how today you’d never lose contact with people/relatives like that unless you really went out of your way to break contact.  
 

I wonder how many people today have to go to the extreme of telling someone they are breaking contact with them vs how it could have more naturally happened in the past. 
 

Also as a side note keep in mind how many posters here talk about cutting off contact with parents/in-laws they view as being toxic. I think this is not just a phenomenon of the young. 
 

 

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, hshibley said:

Also as a side note keep in mind how many posters here talk about cutting off contact with parents/in-laws they view as being toxic. I think this is not just a phenomenon of the young. 
 

 

I agree. Right here on this forum, I have seen many instances where people have strongly recommended that a poster go no contact with family members, and I must admit that, while sometimes I have agreed that it was a good idea because the situation was truly terrible, at other times I have felt that it was an awfully harsh solution to a problem that may have been remedied in a far less extreme way.