Living in a camper long term

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The idea that running water and a toilet are luxuries that adults with college degrees should be willing to live without in 21st century America just absolutely boggles my mind. So now we've gone from "millennials should give up avocado toast and expensive coffee to save for a house" to "Gen Z should just give up toilets and running water"??? 

 

I agree! That kind of attitude is just INSANITY to me! 

It's almost like people are taking pride in it. 

[ktgrok]

32 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I agree! That kind of attitude is just INSANITY to me! 

It's almost like people are taking pride in it. 

And it is just insane that a country that puts people in space and has multibillionaires who have more money than they can ever spend also should expect professionals with degrees to forgo running water and toilets and consider it normal. 

[pinball]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

And it is just insane that a country that puts people in space and has multibillionaires who have more money than they can ever spend also should expect professionals with degrees to forgo running water and toilets and consider it normal. 

maybe replace “professionals with degrees” with “anyone”

 

[pinball]

37 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I agree! That kind of attitude is just INSANITY to me! 

It's almost like people are taking pride in it. 

Well, yeah. Maybe they value other traits (like resourcefulness and fortitude and hmmmm…thriftiness) more than they do running water and toilets where you can poo AND pee?

And then when it’s all over, and they have a toilet or 3, they can look back on those times and say…”look what I’ve accomplished!”

At least that’s how I’m reading it.

Sacrifices you choose for yourself are more palatable than sacrifices outside forces foist on you.

[Catwoman]

16 minutes ago, pinball said:

Well, yeah. Maybe they value other traits (like resourcefulness and fortitude and hmmmm…thriftiness) more than they do running water and toilets where you can poo AND pee?

And then when it’s all over, and they have a toilet or 3, they can look back on those times and say…”look what I’ve accomplished!”

At least that’s how I’m reading it.

Sacrifices you choose for yourself are more palatable than sacrifices outside forces foist on you.

That’s true. It’s entirely different when somebody makes an active choice to live that way, rather than not being able to afford to live any other way.

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, hshibley said:

Is it even legal to have a residence with no indoor plumbing and running water? I can’t imagine it being an acceptable residence and pass zoning. A communal bathroom in a rooming house I could see but you still have water and plumbing. 

I have lived, as a child, with no indoor plumbing at all. It was legal and honestly was not that bad for ME—-much harder on my 30 year old single mom. We had a tub to bathe in in summer on the back porch. When it got cold mom brought the tub in the kitchen. It was definitely not squalor. It was very clean. We were very happy there. 
But that is not what this thread is even about. 
Most people, even those struggling, aren’t living that way now. 
@fairfarmhand can they live with you while you build a tiny home?

[Scarlett]

I don’t know how we got on this topic of the unjustness of people having to live with no indoor plumbing. Lots of things are unjust. No healthcare, unable to afford education to get a hood job. Not able to have a decent vehicle where vehicles are required. Not able to afford healthy quality food. 
 

I would forgo indoor plumbing (especially as a young person) rather than live in some of the  apartments available for low income people. 
 

And honestly I don’t currently know anyone who has no indoor plumbing including my very poor brother who barely gets by in a trailer that would not be considered suitable by most of y’all. 
 

My DSS26 is renting a tiny one bedroom apartment for $600 a month all utilities paid. It is thankfully in a decent area of Tulsa but has not been updated in 30 years. Dh says it smells.  He shares custody of his child and pays no cs and that is still all he can afford. It is really tough out there. 
 

@fairfarmhands kids are not living without indoor plumbing. They are just trying to save for a home someday and they are fortunate to be educated and have some family help. 

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, pinball said:

Where did anyone say that?

Nobody did. Nobody at all, the people whom the thread was about would have access to amenities in the house that they would be right beside.

A few of us tried to explain that is a completely normal way to try save money when younger and got jumped on. Still having amenities just not in their caravan, but right beside them.  

Now some  posters are trying to make out that we expect people to live in hovels with no access to amenities at all and are having to them I guess lots of entertainment rubbishing others.

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[NorthernBeth]

Just, going back to the camper idea for a moment here.  The biggest thing to think about is how cold does it get in your area? And how much are they bothered by the cold?  My husband and son have no problems being a titch cold and would not be bothered by it.  I get overly chilled and would absolutely hate being chilly all winter long.   But of course, I live in an extremely cold area. If your area is more mild, that may not be a huge consideration.  

As to the bathroom issue........ I lived summers at my grandparents' cottage in which they still used an outhouse out back.  I was not overly fond of heading out in the night to use the outhouse, but even as a kid it was certainly doable.  If neither they nor you mind them coming in to use the toilet, then it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it.   

Edited October 15, 2022 by NorthernBeth

[catz]

22 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

 Sometimes people need to think. The rich person mindset they have is not the only way to live. Especially when trying to save. 

In my little coastal village there is a caravan park with permanant residences in old caravans. None of them have toilets in their caravans. all of them use the amenities block. Every singe one if them. 

 One of my sons last year was renting out a converted carport in someones back yard. He paid $190week and was glad to be able to have somewhere to live. He used the amenities in his landlords house. 

I read this is expecting to have a toilet = rich person's mindset.   This sounds like the choice to live in a commune with safe and accessible utilities.  I can't name anywhere like that in the states. 

12 hours ago, lewelma said:

I think that generations in the past were willing to scrimp and save when young and do without luxuries so that they would have a better future. 

Again implies running water and utilities are luxuries to me.

14 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Nobody did. Nobody at all, the people whom the thread was about would have access to amenities in the house that they would be right beside.

A few of us tried to explain that is a completely normal way to try save money when younger and got jumped on. Still having amenities just not in their caravan, but right beside them. 

It MAY be a normal way if you have family that has your back like the OP's situation.  Who is generously trying to crowd source a way to help this young couple.  My mom was raised until age 13 without a toilet in a home without heat in the upper Midwest.  She used to be afraid of the fire going out in the winter and literally has trauma from her upbringing.  That is a very different situation than a young couple choosing to camp for a season or 2 in a mild climate with family for back up.   I spent months of my 20's in tents, I totally get the appeal. 

I don't really think people are expecting to live like the wealthy because the standar is having running water, bathroom or electricity.  Living in a small rental over actually having the goodwill of family to live off the grid isn't actually a choice every one has.  It's actually a different sort of privilege to have a family willing and able to host you like that and that you know has your back.  It's great if it's an option and something a young person/couple can do.  It does not make you more resourceful or willing to scrimp or a reason to stereotype 20 somethings that have electricity where they live.  

[Melissa in Australia]

20 minutes ago, catz said:

I read this is expecting to have a toilet = rich person's mindset.   This sounds like the choice to live in a commune with safe and accessible utilities.  I can't name anywhere like that in the states. 

Again implies running water and utilities are luxuries to me.

It MAY be a normal way if you have family that has your back like the OP's situation.  Who is generously trying to crowd source a way to help this young couple.  My mom was raised until age 13 without a toilet in a home without heat in the upper Midwest.  She used to be afraid of the fire going out in the winter and literally has trauma from her upbringing.  That is a very different situation than a young couple choosing to camp for a season or 2 in a mild climate with family for back up.   I spent months of my 20's in tents, I totally get the appeal. 

I don't really think people are expecting to live like the wealthy because the standar is having running water, bathroom or electricity.  Living in a small rental over actually having the goodwill of family to live off the grid isn't actually a choice every one has.  It's actually a different sort of privilege to have a family willing and able to host you like that and that you know has your back.  It's great if it's an option and something a young person/couple can do.  It does not make you more resourceful or willing to scrimp or a reason to stereotype 20 somethings that have electricity where they live.  

Nobody was stereotyping 20 somethings that don't have electricity. That is completely your own interpretation of what others wrote. 

 Living in a caravan is basically living in a bedroom and kitchen. If you have an annexe then a living room as well. Having a caravan beside a house means access to bathroom facilities and an extension cord means electricity 

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

 Living in a caravan is basically living in a bedroom and kitchen. If you have an annexe then a living room as well. Having a caravan beside a house means access to bathroom facilities and an extension cord means electricity 

I think perhaps we are looking at a cultural difference. What the OP is talking about (caravan with bathroom facilities in a shared space) is reasonably common in NZ and Australia. I'm not sure it is in the USA. So we have said, yup, that is doable, and really not a big deal, and they are seeing it in a totally different light. 

My favourite hotel was built in the 1910s and it has bedrooms with working fireplaces that we can use (and do!) and shared bathroom facilities down the hall. My guess is that most Americans would find this very odd, but in NZ these types of hotels are perhaps unusual but not crazy odd. I think it is just cultural. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I think part of this is cultural, but not in the way that you think.

Here the housing crisis is so severe that they are trying to normalize living rough, or a step up from living rough where the individuals/couples are given a plywood shelter to stay dry. 
 

The step up from that is boondocking, which is a RV with no electric or water or sewer hookups. Most people can’t afford pump outs or a campsite, (or the campsites are full) so they park on streets. Our city has put out a public tap so people can have free water to haul back to the RV.

It’s the normalization of poverty and a turning of a blind eye to it that I fight against. People are living that way because they cannot afford another. When people say, “Oh, it’s ok, young people should scrap a bit” it’s largely ignoring the huge downgrading of living quality my generation has experienced. And, generally, we are told this by boomers who had cheap educations, cheap housing, voted for cheap taxes for themselves that have gutted state budgets….they have all of the cream and are ticked when we ask to not starve.

I have used wood heat, pumped water and hauled it in buckets, done laundry in streams or with a wringer washer, been without electricity, slaughtered chickens and ate from the garden, and otherwise have lived like a good chunk of the world has. I have dusted snow off my bed, cracked ice in the morning, and otherwise can demonstrate grit in however you define it. 
 

I still 100% believe that we lose sight of the narrative about the severity of our housing crisis when we talk about how people should just scrap and save instead of talking about our lack of living wages, even for college educated persons. That means families can’t afford to live here anymore. People can’t afford to live. That is the problem.

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, my sil and dd both completed 4 year degrees on scholarship, They have no student debt. Heck, they don't have ANY debt at all. 

 

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think part of this is cultural, but not in the way that you think.

Here the housing crisis is so severe that they are trying to normalize living rough, or a step up from living rough where the individuals/couples are given a plywood shelter to stay dry. 
 

The step up from that is boondocking, which is a RV with no electric or water or sewer hookups. Most people can’t afford pump outs or a campsite, (or the campsites are full) so they park on streets. Our city has put out a public tap so people can have free water to haul back to the RV.

It’s the normalization of poverty and a turning of a blind eye to it that I fight against. People are living that way because they cannot afford another. When people say, “Oh, it’s ok, young people should scrap a bit” it’s largely ignoring the huge downgrading of living quality my generation has experienced. And, generally, we are told this by boomers who had cheap educations, cheap housing, voted for cheap taxes for themselves that have gutted state budgets….they have all of the cream and are ticked when we ask to not starve.

I have used wood heat, pumped water and hauled it in buckets, done laundry in streams or with a wringer washer, been without electricity, slaughtered chickens and ate from the garden, and otherwise have lived like a good chunk of the world has. I have dusted snow off my bed, cracked ice in the morning, and otherwise can demonstrate grit in however you define it. 
 

I still 100% believe that we lose sight of the narrative about the severity of our housing crisis when we talk about how people should just scrap and save instead of talking about our lack of living wages, even for college educated persons. That means families can’t afford to live here anymore. People can’t afford to live. That is the problem.

Thank you for explaining the strong response those of us in the Southern Hemisphere have faced on this thread. Very helpful to hear the background. 

 

[Katy]

The driving up in housing costs has become completely ridiculous since I've been an adult.  I've seen several articles or news bits about the driving factor in the costs has been 1) rich foreigners buying vacation property here that sits vacant. This is particularly true in San Francisco.  And 2) people buying up cheaper properties for businesses like Air BnB short term rentals. The two have driven up housing costs in most areas of the country.  But I don't think it's exclusive to the USA.  It seems like I watched some sort of investigation into Tech billionaires who are buying up property in New Zealand as a sort of doomsday bunker and how in certain areas that factor alone has driven the price of basic housing to completely not affordable for anyone in the lower portion of the housing market.

Here's a piece on this from Vice:

 

[lewelma]

46 minutes ago, Katy said:

 The two have driven up housing costs in most areas of the country.  But I don't think it's exclusive to the USA.  It seems like I watched some sort of investigation into Tech billionaires who are buying up property in New Zealand as a sort of doomsday bunker and how in certain areas that factor alone has driven the price of basic housing to completely not affordable for anyone in the lower portion of the housing market.

 

We absolutely have a housing crisis in New Zealand. The difference seems to be that the NZ government is trying reasonably hard to fix it. Here are the policies that I am aware of. 

1) They are purposely putting forth financial policies that are killing house prices. We are 20% down year over year.

2) They have given first time homebuyers a leg up by gifting them 20K, so they can undercut other buyers

3) They have changed the tax system to make house flipping no longer profitable. 

4) They are building tens of 1000s of low income houses

5) They are putting people up in hotels that are homeless.

Even with all these policies, it is still a mess. But I think that the average New Zealander feels that we are at least heading back in the right direction even though it is likely to take a decade to fix the problem 

Edited October 16, 2022 by lewelma

[Pawz4me]

23 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm older than most on here, and I get so sick of the tired old "young people nowadays" trope. It's utterly ridiculous, IMO. 

 

7 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

And, generally, we are told this by boomers who had cheap educations, cheap housing, voted for cheap taxes for themselves that have gutted state budgets….they have all of the cream and are ticked when we ask to not starve.

 

Blaming Boomers is every bit as tiresome and ridiculous as blaming "kids these days." 

[Faith-manor]

10 hours ago, lewelma said:

Thank you for explaining the strong response those of us in the Southern Hemisphere have faced on this thread. Very helpful to hear the background. 

 

And also remember all of this is on the backs of a country with no universal healthcare. Think about that too. Insulin is often $800-1000 a month. My husband's epi-pen for his bee sting allergy is running us $800 for a two pack. My youngest son, a new college graduate newly employed as an electrical engineer and with only a $150 a month student loan payment since he had so many scholarships and making a reasonable wage for his work, cannot afford to be sick, ever. He pays $500 a month for health insurance, his employer pays the other $500. He has a $10,000 deductible before insurance kicks in, and has to pay another $5000 before the insurance would pay 100% on covered expenses, and believe me, insurance companies find a bazillion things not to fully cover. He only has 5 days of paid time off which does not begin until he has worked there ninety days. He will not get more until the one year anniversary of his employment. They do fire people for being sick and injured and unable to work after using the five days or for it occurring in the first 90 days. Covid, influenza, a kidney stone, you name it...so many things that would cause a person to be home more than five days. He lives on pins and needles until he has enough years in to qualify for two or three weeks of time off.

I know young people right now who are skipping out on life saving medications, skipping desperately needed medical procedures AND cannot find anywhere they can afford to live. Dispersed camping (free, remote campsites that do not even have a potable water source) are being used in our national forests by people with major medical issues. Forest rangers now have to do routine checks just to see if their campers are still alive, not because of natural disaster, because these campers don't have meds they desperately need, some are living with terrible diseases and trying to winter over in piece of crap campers so impossible to beat that the campers are in danger of freezing to death on top of their health problems.

I wish I could convey how jealous I am of folks who live with universal healthcare.

Of course the net result is that social security, on which the elderly are dependent, will go bust because not only did Gen X have fewer children owing to the fact we could see how the deck was stacked against future generations, but Millennials are having even fewer, and GenZ is pretty much going to have none because the wealthy in this nation are determined to keep these last two generations in poverty, and they have decided that unlike previous generations who would breed in abject misery anyway, they will not. At that point, ya'll get ready for the United States of America Fire Sale. There should be some good bits and pieces to pick up dirt cheap.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Faith-manor

[prairiewindmomma]

6 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

 

Blaming Boomers is every bit as tiresome and ridiculous as blaming "kids these days." 

Fine, those that the tax cuts made in the 80s that led to the stripping of public funding for education and funding for infrastructure coupled with a lot of deregulation in various markets including housing which led to the 2007-2009 housing collapse…which led to a lot of builders leaving the marketplace…which has led us to where we are today. 

[hshibley]

24 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Fine, those that the tax cuts made in the 80s that led to the stripping of public funding for education and funding for infrastructure coupled with a lot of deregulation in various markets including housing which led to the 2007-2009 housing collapse…which led to a lot of builders leaving the marketplace…which has led us to where we are today. 

Also the zoning codes from the 80’s requiring minimum 1 acre house lots. 

[Hannah]

To answer the OP's question.

My parents lived on my uncle's property when we were little for about 18 months while my parents built our house.  My mom would source everything during the day and Dad would build for a few hours after work and on weekends. 

We had a caravan (camper) and attached tent and we had to walk  around the back of the house to get to the bathroom inside the house.  I was about 6 at the time and still remember jumping from flag-stone to flag-stone on the path from our camper to the house to avoid the puddles caused by the rain.  My parents also converted an outbuilding into a type of living room where our living room furniture stood.  We took a different path to get there.  The area we lived in has winter rain, but temperatures are fairly mild - going down to about 10 degrees Celcius during the day (50 F).

My sister in Ireland just had my cousin's daughter stay in the camper parked in her driveway for a semester while attending university.  Keeping the camper heated was a challenge and she basically only slept there.  Doable with the right clothing and bedding.  My sister also didn't mind having her in the public areas of the house nor her using the bottom bathroom and shower.

I think you need to think about how much of your home Dd and family will be using, and would you mind having them there?  Different personalities also come into the mix.

Do you have private spaces to retreat to?  Is there a bathroom available that they can use?  What about washer/drier? (I recall that my Uncle and father installed a washer in the bathroom that we used in their home).  Would you allow them to use your kitchen?  How often?  I think you all have to have a frank discussion on how you see the day-to-day practicalities working out.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Hannah
Added a few more thoughts.

[Jaybee]

On 10/14/2022 at 11:31 AM, DawnM said:

I am always curious why people suggest yurts.   Why would you suggest this over a trailer/camper?

Sorry for the late response, I was gone this weekend. I was just throwing out an idea. My thinking was that it might give you more floor space, especially with a toddler. I looked at the variance in price, and maybe I looked in the wrong place, but there was a wide range, and I wondered what all you might could include for a reasonably comparative price. Of course, I didn't research it extensively. 

ETA: And dh and I lived in a smallish camper in a campground for about 4 weeks one summer. It was tight. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Jaybee

[Jaybee]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:54 PM, Melissa in Australia said:

Cause it is the latest fashion

Well, in my mind I have to work to imagine the latest fashion ones, because I first think of the kind in Mongolia with rugs for floors. So no, I wasn't trying to be trendy. I was trying to figure out something practical--which might not be--I was just brainstorming.

[Jaybee]

On 10/14/2022 at 8:26 PM, ktgrok said:

Ah, okay, that has not been true here, for those who are professionals in working class or middle class neighborhoods, for a very long time. In rural poor areas, or even urban poor, yes. But not in typical working class or higher. 

The only people I ever knew personally who had an outside toilet were my grandparents when I was little. By the time I was 10 or so, over 50 years ago, they closed in a porch and made a bathroom/washroom out of it. She used her wringer washer for as long as I knew. They were a farming family who lived at the tail end of the Appalachian mountains. But they had running water before they had the inside toilet/shower (just a shower head off of a pipe across the washroom ceiling). And they had electricity. I think that up on the mountain, they were probably one of the last to still have an outhouse in use. My other grandparents who probably lived about 10 minutes away, had an inside toilet a long time before. He was a machinist.

[Catwoman]

13 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

 

Blaming Boomers is every bit as tiresome and ridiculous as blaming "kids these days." 

Yes, it is incredibly annoying (and inaccurate.) 

I can't help but wonder how the people who put all the blame on Boomers are going to feel when their own kids grow up and place all of the blame on their generation. 😉 

 

[madteaparty]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:06 AM, Pawz4me said:

 

Blaming Boomers is every bit as tiresome and ridiculous as blaming "kids these days." 

It’s actually documentable when those tax cuts happened. It’s also the case that generation had help from the prior one in a way that it’s impossible to repeat. The only people in younger generations that do well  have had immense familial help. With private tuition, with down payments, with rent. 

I’m an immigrant and while  this boomer phenomenon is true almost universally, the data in the states is kind of astounding. 

[madteaparty]

14 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Yes, it is incredibly annoying (and inaccurate.) 

I can't help but wonder how the people who put all the blame on Boomers are going to feel when their own kids grow up and place all of the blame on their generation. 😉 

 

A lot of it would be deserved. We are absolutely setting fire to the thing for our kids. 

OP, to go back to the topic, not sure how true it is as I don’t keep up with it but my DH told me recently that some building costs/commodity prices are back to prepandemic levels. Maybe your DH can accelerate his plans to built a little cabin... 

Edited October 17, 2022 by madteaparty

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, madteaparty said:

It’s actually documentable when those tax cuts happened. It’s also the case that generation had help from the prior one in a way that it’s impossible to repeat. The only people in younger generations that do well  have had immense familial help. With private tuition, with down payments, with rent. 

I’m an immigrant and while  this boomer phenomenon is true almost universally, the data in the states is kind of astounding. 

Right - although to clarify, I personally would say certain people of that generation were the ones that caused a lot of the problems, because obviously there were others that were voting differently, etc. My parents were boomers, but also hippies to a degree, and voted against the politicans and laws that created this situation. They never fell for trickle down economics, etc. They are boomers, but as aghast as anyone at what has happened. 

[catz]

I am a HUGE advocate of not stereotyping generations.  My mom who is a boomer doesn't fit into this picture often painted of that generation at all.

That said, my dad (born in the early 40's) worked his way through college.  He graduated college at like age 25 or 26.  Got married, had 2 kids.  Built several small businesses from scratch.  One was bought out and still runs under his name though he is deceased.   We were born into a trailer home family.  We graduated high school living in a 3400 sq ft home with 4 bed, 3 bath and a pool. That got to go overseas a couple times, go to Disney, take long road trips with a travel trailer.  Our parents sent us to state flagships debt free for college.  That was actually hard and a ton of work.  But now this doesn't even seem like something young people can hope for and work towards realistically.  Plenty of people are ready to gut social security and medicare as well.  

Heck my husband who is 8 years older than me mostly worked his way through his flagship university degrees while living at home (UG, MS).  His parents were blue collar workers but built their own 3 bedroom home and were able to go south for the winter for many years when they retired.  

It feels harder for this generation coming up.  

Edited October 17, 2022 by catz

[Corraleno]

Well I'm a Boomer and I think my generation absolutely deserves much of the blame. It pisses me off when Boomers whine that kids today don't want to work and want everything handed to them, while collecting nice pensions in their paid off houses and enjoying medicare and social security paid for by current workers who will likely never get that money back. In reality we are the generation that had opportunities handed to us — cheap subsidized college, inexpensive starter homes, blue collar jobs that paid a living wage and could support a family. Of course "not all Boomers," yadda yadda, but a significant percentage of my generation voted for policies that ensured that "kids today" would not have any of the benefits that we did, and I think they deserve every bit of the derision they get from Gen Z.

 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

A lot of it would be deserved. We are absolutely setting fire to the thing for our kids. 

OP, to go back to the topic, not sure how true it is as I don’t keep up with it but my DH told me recently that some building costs/commodity prices are back to prepandemic levels. Maybe your DH can accelerate his plans to built a little cabin... 

This. I am sorry, but yes, we can look at the generation with the greatest voting power who has consistently refused to believe that science, the profound weight of evidence, and decided "To hell with the kids! I am nor going to change my lifestyle, or make a sacrifice of any kind now so they can have breathable air, potable water, and a world NOT on fire." I have listened to my own parents rhetoric and that of their friends and acquaintances, seen the statistics. The preponderance of evidence against them for making decisions they knew would cripple the nation for the future is just mind boggling. I still try to have compassion for them as much as I can, and not let it harden me into someone who can't think critically about the solutions we need and fast or become too emotional about the hardships we may face in the future. Just head down, get it done. But, I look at my grandparents, the Silent Generation, and just how much they thought about the welfare of their kids, their grand children, their great grandchildren, and the difference is STARK.

The sad reality for my kids is that home ownership, and living rather independently is not going to be an option. My three boys, two of whom have life partners now, have had meetings together about finding an abode that all five of them can share in order to pool resources and get out of their respective apartments with multiple roommates always coming and going some of whom are good and some of whom are terrible. They would like to find a four bedroom, 2.5 bath house with 3 acres that they could garden on, have backyard chickens, have a wildflower patch for pollinators, a solar array, and definitely outside city limits enough to have a well with a whole house filter. They would plant fruit trees, and if the well wasn't at least 100 ft deep, dig another one so that the chances of running completely dry are very low. They would put in geothermal or at least earth tubes to help with heating and cooling. And they would share the expenses for the property. BUT of course someone in the group has to make enough money to qualify for the mortgage because none of the local banks are willing to allow these young adults to take out a mortgage together despite the fact that household income from five working adults all throwing their resources into the pot is crazy high, and one son has a very lucrative writing advance on his novel. Of course, they are all working on saving the down payment, but that is hard too since they do not have a place where they can currently all reside together in order share expenses and save money without the drain of roommates who sign up to share rent and then never pay it.

[Scarlett]

When I graduated high school and married in 1983 my then husband and I had basically min wage jobs and rented a $155 per month apartment. We only had to pay electric.  We both had  bit of furniture we brought from home. We both had a vehicle…his was paid for mine was a $50 a month payment.  We had no home phone for a couple of months until a friend signed for us to waive the deposit. 
 

By 1987 we had slightly better jobs….I think making around $10 an hour…..and we were able to buy a really cute house in a nice neighbor hood for $37,500. Even then we got help from his mom for closing costs. ( closing costs were about 2000 and she gave us 1000). Part of what enabled us to even do that much was that we delayed having a child.  
 

Our 21 year old is not married.  But if he was and his wife made what he makes they would be making roughly $30 an hour total compared to our $20 total per hour.  So that is 1 1/2 times.  But there is no way he could buy anything even remotely as cute and in as a good a neighborhood for $60k. 
 

Ok I just took a few minutes and found a house in that same neighborhood that looks almost identical to that first house we bought.  It is listed at $140K and frankly it seems to be a darn good deal. It has been listed for 11 hours.  I just saved it to see how fast it goes.  Clearly wages have not kept up with these housing prices.  
 

It is no wonder the 20 somethings are floundering….things are pretty hopeless. Ds21 won’t be able to afford a decent house.  And he has said he doesn’t want kids which I can understand because he can’t afford them. 

[aggie96]

On 10/15/2022 at 9:20 AM, hshibley said:

Is it even legal to have a residence with no indoor plumbing and running water? I can’t imagine it being an acceptable residence and pass zoning. A communal bathroom in a rooming house I could see but you still have water and plumbing. 

I am currently trying to buy 12-acre property with a 1100sqft home on it built in 1957. It does not have central heat/air. It does have 2 window AC units that are operable. The lending company will not fund the loan (even though we are putting down larger-than-typical/required down payment and have almost perfect credit scores) without a central heat and air. Fannie Mae requires that the AC/heat be in accordance with the neighborhood (which it is), though the wording is very vague and left up to interpretation. But the lending company will.not.lend without central heat/air no matter how much we argue that there are other equally acceptable options. More appraisals are being ordered, and there is a very real chance that this house cannot be sold without some updates. 

All that to say that there seems to be a disconnect. I am very surprised that there would be millions of "houses" without indoor plumbing. It seems that they would have to be very old and never been updated. Plus only ever sold in cash, etc. Plus, renting such a place seems weird because there are lots of zoning and tenant laws to prevent that (although I know things can be ignored).

In my world, no indoor plumbing is called "camping". You can camp long term or short term, but you are camping. You can have a tent or a camper, or a converted car, but you are camping. I have family members that choose a nomadic life-style full time...camping in a small suv with an extension tent type thing. They also had a roof tent type thing for a while. Now they have a converted big van complete with shower and toilet and kitchen (a gift from their parents). But they are great at thrifting and finding amenities when needed, going without by choice most of the time.

The lifestyle is not for me, but do-able and seems smart for saving money or choosing a non-mainstream lifestyle. My own parents wouldn't think twice about letting their children boondock on their property. Their doors are always open to help however they can or have means.

[Jaybee]

And after just having finished a weekend of tent camping, it's even fun for a few days, but I wouldn't want to live that way. Part of it is that I am older and a toilet closeby makes a huge difference in comfort for me. I will leave it at that. I could live in a camper for a time. I have lived in a camper for a short time. But I would much prefer not to. Our little camper I mentioned above was provided for us when we were on an internship for a summer and the mobile home we were supposed to live in was not quite ready. We had brought pots and pans because it would be mostly unfurnished, and there wasn't room in the camper for our couple of boxes of things. And it leaked. And at night we would lie very very still so that the skunk we thought was under the camper wouldn't be frightened. It makes for some funny memories, but we felt like we were kings when we moved into the brand new 2-bedroom mobile home. Thankfully, when we were in the camper, we could use the campsite facilities, which were more than sufficient.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Jaybee

[Jaybee]

I'll say, though, that I can certainly understand why they are considering it. It's really hard to get started. Dh and I lived in a 1-bedroom apartment for the first 5 years of marriage because we were students. It was hard when others our ages were buying their first homes, but we were still quite comfortable, even when our first baby came along.

[fairfarmhand]

29 minutes ago, aggie96 said:

I am currently trying to buy 12-acre property with a 1100sqft home on it built in 1957. It does not have central heat/air. It does have 2 window AC units that are operable. The lending company will not fund the loan (even though we are putting down larger-than-typical/required down payment and have almost perfect credit scores) without a central heat and air. Fannie Mae requires that the AC/heat be in accordance with the neighborhood (which it is), though the wording is very vague and left up to interpretation. But the lending company will.not.lend without central heat/air no matter how much we argue that there are other equally acceptable options. More appraisals are being ordered, and there is a very real chance that this house cannot be sold without some updates. 

All that to say that there seems to be a disconnect. I am very surprised that there would be millions of "houses" without indoor plumbing. It seems that they would have to be very old and never been updated. Plus only ever sold in cash, etc. Plus, renting such a place seems weird because there are lots of zoning and tenant laws to prevent that (although I know things can be ignored).

 

Generally, I would think these places have had indoor plumbing but it is not working correctly. And if it's something that you inherited from Grandma and don't have the money to repair, then there's no need for a mortgage.

WRT to renters:

Also, there are so many places in rural Appalachia that might *have* tenant laws, but nobody ever enforces them. I think more likely is that the tenants want to stay out of trouble. If you are out on parole, or have a warrant out for your arrest, or you use drugs from time to time, most of those people will not want to go near any kind of legal trouble. Immigrants may expect nothing more, or if they are here illegality, they're not going to report anything. Additionally, those involved in domestic violence are often so beaten down by life, that they lack the energy to try to make things happen. Sometimes, just to have a place to call home, because one cannot afford anything better, people put up with terrible conditions because there is no alternative.

I'm sure in other areas of the country may be similar.

While I never had to live without plumbing, we lived in horrific neighborhoods and I knew people who did. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by fairfarmhand

[aggie96]

12 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Generally, I would think these places have had indoor plumbing but it is not working correctly. And if it's something that you inherited from Grandma and don't have the money to repair, then there's no need for a mortgage.

WRT to renters:

Also, there are so many places in rural Appalachia that might *have* tenant laws, but nobody ever enforces them. I think more likely is that the tenants want to stay out of trouble. If you are out on parole, or have a warrant out for your arrest, or you use drugs from time to time, most of those people will not want to go near any kind of legal trouble. Immigrants may expect nothing more, or if they are here illegality, they're not going to report anything. Additionally, those involved in domestic violence are often so beaten down by life, that they lack the energy to try to make things happen. Sometimes, just to have a place to call home, because one cannot afford anything better, people put up with terrible conditions because there is no alternative.

I'm sure in other areas of the country may be similar.

While I never had to live without plumbing, we lived in horrific neighborhoods and I knew people who did. 

I agree with you. I could see all these possibilities coming into play. It's an interesting idea though simply because I would not question a lender denying a sale based on no toilet. Plus, if properties are not being "upgraded" to indoor plumbing/toilet I suspect that also has to do with complacency. When you get used to it, why spend the money or effort even if you could? I personally would take no indoor plumbing over no indoor water any day. Running indoor water is the bare necessity for me.

In fact, I am trying to make the argument to the lender that no central heat/air is common in this area semi-rural Texas. But they told me all the comparables had it. I told them that they may LIST central air but that doesn't mean they have it. Plus, once it breaks, many use a window unit. It really is very common in that area. But I was told tough. They could never resell it should the mortgage default. Total BS. We had to jump on this because these properties are going like hotcakes even in the slowing market. Grrrr.

WRT renter...if you are having to hide for any reason, then you definitely are just stuck with what you can get. I would NEVER leave my renters without plumbing. BUT renters have not given a second thought to tearing up my property costing thousands of dollars. But I still wouldn't leave them without a toilet.

Edited October 17, 2022 by aggie96

[rebcoola]

Yeah if my GMIL plumbing went out she would probably just live without water.  If her sons could fix it they would but they can't let any contractors in the house because it would be immediately condemned and she would kill herself rather than leave.

[Katy]

3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

This. I am sorry, but yes, we can look at the generation with the greatest voting power who has consistently refused to believe that science, the profound weight of evidence, and decided "To hell with the kids! I am nor going to change my lifestyle, or make a sacrifice of any kind now so they can have breathable air, potable water, and a world NOT on fire." I have listened to my own parents rhetoric and that of their friends and acquaintances, seen the statistics. The preponderance of evidence against them for making decisions they knew would cripple the nation for the future is just mind boggling. I still try to have compassion for them as much as I can, and not let it harden me into someone who can't think critically about the solutions we need and fast or become too emotional about the hardships we may face in the future. Just head down, get it done. But, I look at my grandparents, the Silent Generation, and just how much they thought about the welfare of their kids, their grand children, their great grandchildren, and the difference is STARK.

The sad reality for my kids is that home ownership, and living rather independently is not going to be an option. My three boys, two of whom have life partners now, have had meetings together about finding an abode that all five of them can share in order to pool resources and get out of their respective apartments with multiple roommates always coming and going some of whom are good and some of whom are terrible. They would like to find a four bedroom, 2.5 bath house with 3 acres that they could garden on, have backyard chickens, have a wildflower patch for pollinators, a solar array, and definitely outside city limits enough to have a well with a whole house filter. They would plant fruit trees, and if the well wasn't at least 100 ft deep, dig another one so that the chances of running completely dry are very low. They would put in geothermal or at least earth tubes to help with heating and cooling. And they would share the expenses for the property. BUT of course someone in the group has to make enough money to qualify for the mortgage because none of the local banks are willing to allow these young adults to take out a mortgage together despite the fact that household income from five working adults all throwing their resources into the pot is crazy high, and one son has a very lucrative writing advance on his novel. Of course, they are all working on saving the down payment, but that is hard too since they do not have a place where they can currently all reside together in order share expenses and save money without the drain of roommates who sign up to share rent and then never pay it.

Have them get a consult with a local attorney or even a local credit union. Chances are they could incorporate (possibly needing a business plan for a small farm / famers market garden), and the corporation would be able to get financing. Or maybe even a family trust, though that might be more difficult. Another option would be starting in one apartment where they all share, so at least if someone has difficulty it’s family. 
 

ETA: I’d start with the credit union. Even if no one had the credit score to get a home now, they’ll probably give them a secured loan and get them a first time homebuyers loan after a year. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Katy

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

Have them get a consult with a local attorney or even a local credit union. Chances are they could incorporate (possibly needing a business plan for a small farm / famers market garden), and the corporation would be able to get financing. Or maybe even a family trust, though that might be more difficult. Another option would be starting in one apartment where they all share, so at least if someone has difficulty it’s family. 
 

ETA: I’d start with the credit union. Even if no one had the credit score to get a home now, they’ll probably give them a secured loan and get them a first time homebuyers loan after a year. 

I know a few unmarried couples who have mortgaged homes together.

Also, I know siblings who share a home and its mortgage. 

none of them are corporations 

The issue I have heard that comes up most often is bad credit. If one person in the couple or group has bad credit, that can blow it.

@SKL has a home she shares with other adults she isn’t married to. maybe if it is not too personal she can weigh in 

[fairfarmhand]

Okay, y;all. Composting toilets have turned the whole discussion around... lol. My dh heard that, did some research and now that's his toilet plan for a cabin. That's a big deal because we can hopefully install that a lot more quickly than a septic system and likely for much much less money. This was super exciting to my civil engineer dh who works at a wastewater plant where sewage is digested by bacteria and those bacteria are turned into fertilizer. He really gets into that kind of thing.

I did mention to my dd and sil some of y 'all's concerns (cold and leaks) and I was condescended to. "Really, mom, it's okay. We like keeping the house cool anyway. And we'll just plug in a portable heater if it gets too chilly. And there's no way an electric bill will be as much as our rent." So I've stopped offering suggestions. It helps to know with 100 percent certainty that she has negative desire to live in my house. She knows we'll all do better when they have their own space, even if its just across the yard. 

The cabin may take a couple of months to install. We'll be buying one of those prefab outbuildings. They have till the end of November I think to get out of their apartment. It's likely they'll rent a camper for the space between when they have to move out and before the cabin is ready.

[QueenCat]

30 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I did mention to my dd and sil some of y 'all's concerns (cold and leaks) and I was condescended to. "Really, mom, it's okay. We like keeping the house cool anyway. And we'll just plug in a portable heater if it gets too chilly. And there's no way an electric bill will be as much as our rent." So I've stopped offering suggestions. It helps to know with 100 percent certainty that she has negative desire to live in my house. She knows we'll all do better when they have their own space, even if its just across the yard. 

 

Will they have a separate electric hook-up, with the account/bill in their name? And I get being "condescended to..." I've learned to turn around and roll my eyes as I walk away.

[happi duck]

@fairfarmhand

Thanks for the update, sounds like a plan!

[fairfarmhand]

28 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

Will they have a separate electric hook-up, with the account/bill in their name? And I get being "condescended to..." I've learned to turn around and roll my eyes as I walk away.

No, but we've lived in our home for 20 years and have the last 12 months of utility bills, so we'll easily be able to figure the difference in the bill.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

Okay, y;all. Composting toilets have turned the whole discussion around... lol. 

Hurray for composting toilets!  Ours never smelled, and we felt so environmentally friendly. 🙂

[Jaybee]

That sounds really good! I kept thinking how much more I would like a little one-bedroom cabin than a camper. Just a little more stretching room, you know? Granted, I keep thinking of the camper we stayed in, where we couldn't pass each other in it.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Jaybee

[Scarlett]

What a great update. 

[Faith-manor]

On the subject of composting toilets, I wish we had a LOT of toilets converted to composting in order to save water.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Faith-manor

[Scarlett]

My sister and law and her friend bought a house together.