s/o Early Marriage - How important do you think it is to not have sex until marriage?

[Terabith]

I didn't grow up exactly in the bosom of classical evangelicalism, but I certainly grew up AROUND it, attending a very conservative United Methodist church in the South at the height of the purity movement.  My public school's sex education involved cheerleaders doing cheers about just saying no to sex and lots of analogies that sex before marriage turned you into used chewing gum that nobody would want and that you'd be gross.  So I was personally pretty committed to the whole no sex before marriage.  And honestly, I think that was way less than ideal and that there are things that would have been good to know about myself before I got married, though it's possible if I had known them that I might not have gotten married, and that would have been sad.  

My kids are 16 and 17, and I've never been really comfortable with what to tell them about sex before marriage.  I've always said that contraception fails and that our family is REALLY fertile, and you want at least two methods if you're having heterosexual sex.  I've always said that I think there is real value in chastity before marriage but that it's not an unambiguous good and that it's very easy to turn virginity into an idol.  And that I think that there are so many other things that are so much more important in a relationship than virginity, like being ready and having the skills to forge a good marriage.  

But when we're talking about early marriage, your stance on sex before marriage obviously makes a big difference.  It's one thing to ask kids to wait to have sex till they are 22.  It's another thing to ask them to wait until they are 28.  

How important do you guys think waiting on sex for marriage is?  

 

[regentrude]

Not important at all to me. Nor to any of my friends growing up. Until moving to this country, I never met people for whom that was a thing.
But I also don't consider marriage "better" than a committed relationship without the piece of paper, except for the practical advantage of the legal benefits.
ETA: Grew up in the Lutheran Church in Germany, went through twelve years of Sunday school and youth group, chastity was never mentioned.

Edited August 17, 2021 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

We were pretty convinced that prior to adulthood, it was less than ideal though not the end of the universe. Our kids had a ton of pursuits, 4H, rocketry, dual enrollment, chess club, hiking, skiing, and kayaking so they actually just were too busy to date, and that was nice. It wasn't an issue. Once adults, we just never figured it was not appropriate for us to have a say. We were super open about sex from preteens forward, talked a lot about STI's, unwanted pregnancy, relationships, etc. They seemed to get the message about taking care. Religious fundamentalism abounded here, but we were the odd family out. My parents were freaks about it because my brother got his high school girlfriend pregnant senior year. Ya, he didn't make a good.choice. but potentially the entire lack of parental guidance had a big claim to blame. My mother NEVER talked about any of it as we approached puberty. (I got my period when I was 11 and had to ask the school nurse about it, and the sum total of what my brother got was, "Do you know why we are taking our boy dog to see the girl dog?" from my father. To which he replied, "Duh!" And so my dad left it at that. Sigh.

We were way more concerned about drugs, alcoholism, driving with a bunch of other teens, etc. Safety.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Faith-manor

[TexasProud]

33 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I didn't grow up exactly in the bosom of classical evangelicalism, but I certainly grew up AROUND it, attending a very conservative United Methodist church in the South at the height of the purity movement.  My public school's sex education involved cheerleaders doing cheers about just saying no to sex and lots of analogies that sex before marriage turned you into used chewing gum that nobody would want and that you'd be gross.  So I was personally pretty committed to the whole no sex before marriage.  And honestly, I think that was way less than ideal and that there are things that would have been good to know about myself before I got married, though it's possible if I had known them that I might not have gotten married, and that would have been sad.  

My kids are 16 and 17, and I've never been really comfortable with what to tell them about sex before marriage.  I've always said that contraception fails and that our family is REALLY fertile, and you want at least two methods if you're having heterosexual sex.  I've always said that I think there is real value in chastity before marriage but that it's not an unambiguous good and that it's very easy to turn virginity into an idol.  And that I think that there are so many other things that are so much more important in a relationship than virginity, like being ready and having the skills to forge a good marriage.  

But when we're talking about early marriage, your stance on sex before marriage obviously makes a big difference.  It's one thing to ask kids to wait to have sex till they are 22.  It's another thing to ask them to wait until they are 28.  

How important do you guys think waiting on sex for marriage is?  

 

I did not grow up in a religious home. It was practical.  I agree with you on the bolded, though.  I do believe that like other things God told us to do, it is what is best for us.  Having sex takes your relationship to another level. There is deeper emotional pain if you break up.  And yeah, someone who is responsible, who pays bills on time, who truly respects you, and does what is best for YOU, etc. is much more important than firework sex.  Not to say that those qualities are mutually exclusive. 🙂    

But in the end, they are adults and will do what they do. My children have chosen not to date much. ( 26yo has never dated. 24 yo  dated someone his senior year who broke his heart and hasn't dated again, daughter (almost 20) 2 boys very briefly her senior year in high school.   So yeah, they might be 30 at this rate before they marry...    But again, having sex is such an intimate act.  I cannot imagine being that vulnerable with more than one person. Ever. If my husband dies, that is it for me.  Being that vulnerable is hard. 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I did not grow up in a religious home. It was practical.  I agree with you on the bolded, though.  I do believe that like other things God told us to do, it is what is best for us.  Having sex takes your relationship to another level. There is deeper emotional pain if you break up.  And yeah, someone who is responsible, who pays bills on time, who truly respects you, and does what is best for YOU, etc. is much more important than firework sex.  Not to say that those qualities are mutually exclusive. 🙂    

But in the end, they are adults and will do what they do. My children have chosen not to date much. ( 26yo has never dated. 24 yo  dated someone his senior year who broke his heart and hasn't dated again, daughter (almost 20) 2 boys very briefly her senior year in high school.   So yeah, they might be 30 at this rate before they marry...    But again, having sex is such an intimate act.  I cannot imagine being that vulnerable with more than one person. Ever. If my husband dies, that is it for me.  Being that vulnerable is hard. 

I have pretty limited life experience on this topic, but I'm not sure that I agree that sex is the most intimate/ vulnerable you can be.  I think sex can be (not that it always is) just a purely physical thing.  I think emotional and financial intimacy is in many ways more vulnerable.  

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have pretty limited life experience on this topic, but I'm not sure that I agree that sex is the most intimate/ vulnerable you can be.  I think sex can be (not that it always is) just a purely physical thing.  I think emotional and financial intimacy is in many ways more vulnerable.  

Agreed.

 

[Farrar]

It's not important to me at all.

I grew up Christian, but not conservative Christian at all. And I did not follow that precept myself and have no regrets around it.

I think - given mainstream American values and expectations for relationships - most couples would be better off having sex before marriage. I don't think that's true for everyone, of course. Sex is not the only thing that makes a marriage. Waiting for that particular intimacy is a value that can be important for some people. But it's definitely the case that most people here have expectations of sexual compatibility in a marriage and not finding that compatibility can mess marriages up as a result. I think most people who are "waiting for marriage" are doing it in the context of American society and that they are typically idolizing virginity and purity in a way that is unhealthy. In the context of American society many years ago, in the context of other societies, I think that's not always the case. It could just be the norm, and not some effort to push against the norm. And expectations about sexual compatibility weren't as open or strong for marriages. But as things stand now, they are. 

In the end, it's each individual's call. No one should have sex because they feel they should. But I can't imagine teaching that there's anything wrong with it.

I do think many people want their kids to wait until they're adults and/or independent adults. I don't hold a particular value for that, but I can understand that a lot better.

[Carrie12345]

0 importance, imo. I mean, I have thoughts about safety and emotions, but they’re not entangled with legal paperwork.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I didn't grow up exactly in the bosom of classical evangelicalism, but I certainly grew up AROUND it, attending a very conservative United Methodist church in the South at the height of the purity movement.  My public school's sex education involved cheerleaders doing cheers about just saying no to sex and lots of analogies that sex before marriage turned you into used chewing gum that nobody would want and that you'd be gross.  So I was personally pretty committed to the whole no sex before marriage.  And honestly, I think that was way less than ideal and that there are things that would have been good to know about myself before I got married, though it's possible if I had known them that I might not have gotten married, and that would have been sad.  

My kids are 16 and 17, and I've never been really comfortable with what to tell them about sex before marriage.  I've always said that contraception fails and that our family is REALLY fertile, and you want at least two methods if you're having heterosexual sex.  I've always said that I think there is real value in chastity before marriage but that it's not an unambiguous good and that it's very easy to turn virginity into an idol.  And that I think that there are so many other things that are so much more important in a relationship than virginity, like being ready and having the skills to forge a good marriage.  

But when we're talking about early marriage, your stance on sex before marriage obviously makes a big difference.  It's one thing to ask kids to wait to have sex till they are 22.  It's another thing to ask them to wait until they are 28.  

How important do you guys think waiting on sex for marriage is?  

 

I think those are separate things.  And I dislike the term virgin, because one's virginity can be taken by force, or it can be from another time in one's life when you lived differently and now choose to remain chaste.  But anyway, I agree virginity/chasteness is absolutely not the most important component of a good marriage.  To me that doesn't even make sense.  But I do see great practical value in sex only inside a marriage. I see it more clearly the older I get.  My faith, my view of God's standard dictate that it is a requirement.  Like any other standard of God we sometimes mess up and need to take steps to stop, ask for forgiveness and take steps to insure you don't do it again or keep doing it.  

My faith encourages our youth to not marry young.  I think different cultures and may have various views of what that actually means, but I think 22-25 is a good age if you have been adulting.  Probably slightly older for males.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Until last year, we were part of a church that taught no sex before marriage, and would use church discipline if they found out that you had had sex. Teens were interviewed regularly by the bishop and asked if they were keeping the law of chastity. My son graduated from high school last year and already several of his female church friends of the same age have married.

I am absolutely, almost unequivocally against early marriage. We have left that church, and have tried to thoroughly unteach purity culture to our children.

I don’t think casual sex is a great idea,  but I am absolutely encouraging our kids to explore solo sex and to have safe and consensual sex with their committed partner prior to marriage. 
 

We have been having the safe sex talk since early elementary school with our kids. We use inclusive language and anatomically precise vocabulary. We did so even when we were part of a purity culture church because of the trauma I have seen in male and female partners who went from chaste kissing to the marriage bed without adequate instruction or guidance. Many can’t flip the switch and then see marital intimacy as safe, healthy, encouraged, playful and welcoming.

[Pam in CT]

I care a lot that my kids are kind and respectful and responsible to their partners.  I would be deeply dismayed to learn that one of my kids hit their partner, or cheated within a putatively monogamous relationship, or gambled/drank/smoked away the rent money, or left small children unattended, etc.

The way I look at it, it's good to be a grownup before launching into sex.  Or marriage.  But it's adulthood that is my marker.

I count sex as among a range of human activities that entail responsibility and judgment, and also real benefits and a degree of inherent risk. I don't see sex as *unique* in holding that balance. Driving, skiing, travel, drinking, moving, trying new activities, having kids, going on vacation with extended family or friends -- there are a yuge number of human activities that also entail such balances. 

I'd personally rank sex as calling for MORE judgment and maturity than driving... and LESS judgment and maturity than going on vacation with another family.   There's no magic age where I think most people have the magic level of maturity; the speed of frontal lobe development varies substantially, LOL  I've had that basic conversation with my kids numerous times, in spiraling degrees of specificity based on their ages.

 

And the focus on "virginity" as defined by what Faith colorfully referred to as piv conduct is close to incomprehensible to me.  What does that even mean?  Like, all the other conduct is OK, but that one act is in a different moral category? Are lesbians "virgins" forever? I have questions.

[TexasProud]

35 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have pretty limited life experience on this topic, but I'm not sure that I agree that sex is the most intimate/ vulnerable you can be.  I think sex can be (not that it always is) just a purely physical thing.  I think emotional and financial intimacy is in many ways more vulnerable.  

Financial intimacy???  That is really, really easy. But my husband and I are both savers and do it all together. Always have. Have the same values and have never fought about that.  I just cannot separate se... from emotion. Don't know how you have one without the other. 

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

We have been having the safe sex talk since early elementary school with our kids. We use inclusive language and anatomically precise vocabulary. We did so even when we were part of a purity culture church because of the trauma I have seen in male and female partners who went from chaste kissing to the marriage bed without adequate instruction or guidance. Many can’t flip the switch and then see marital intimacy as safe, healthy, encouraged, playful and welcoming.

That is such a huge issue.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Also, virginity isn’t a real thing. It’s an imagined social construct. There’s nothing that is taken away or destroyed called virginity when one has sexual contact. 
 

One can have a hymen—whole or partial or not at all. Your hymen can be stretched or torn through vigorous exercise or tampon use or whatever….but using a tampon does not destroy your virginity.

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

And the focus on "virginity" as defined by what Faith colorfully referred to as piv conduct is close to incomprehensible to me.  What does that even mean?  Like, all the other conduct is OK, but that one act is in a different moral category? Are lesbians "virgins" forever? I have questions.

Yeah, I'll be honest, Bill Clinton really expanded my worldview on that topic.....

Questions, indeed!

[TheReader]

We've been open with the kids about the fact that we did not, in fact, wait until we were married (as oldest was born a tiny bit before our wedding, it honestly surprised us that we had to spell it out, but apparently none of them stopped and thought what it meant that DS would turn his age, and then a few weeks later DH & I would have that same # anniversary......it was honestly comical when we said it out loud and they said "wait, what???" like it was some big surprise. I also have pics of me holding oldest on our wedding day, which I thought they'd seen (in an album, not out on the wall, but still...)). 

Anyway, that experience, in contrast with growing up in the middle of the purity movement, and yes, there's the downside of never having had time as a couple that lived together w/o kids, but overall DH & I both pretty much feel it's more important that you are in a committed relationship of some sort, but not specifically married as a prerequisite for having sex. 

I do think that's part of the reason for the push for early marriage in some circles/areas, and it saddens me, although really, DH and I have been together since high school, and committed, and did marry semi-early (I mean, I had graduated college, and he had a year left, so not super early), and that worked well.....but we also spent about 10 months broken up during college, right around the age that some would have promoted to us. We refer to those months jokingly as "the dark months" but also more seriously as "...that saved our relationship." We needed that time apart for some individual growth before coming back together and getting married. 

[Terabith]

8 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Financial intimacy???  That is really, really easy. But my husband and I are both savers and do it all together. Always have. Have the same values and have never fought about that.  I just cannot separate se... from emotion. Don't know how you have one without the other. 

When your finances are completely intertwined with someone else, you are vulnerable in a way that I think is scarier than if you're just having sex.  

You really don't know people for whom sex is just something that feels good and doesn't have a huge emotional connection?  It's not that way for me, but I've definitely known folks who did not ascribe much more meaning to sex than they would to eating a nice meal.  

It's not what I want for my kids....I'm kind of agnostic on the waiting for marriage topic, but I don't want sex to be casual for them.  But I've definitely known more than a few people like that, and they aren't bad people or anything.  

[TexasProud]

Just now, Terabith said:

When your finances are completely intertwined with someone else, you are vulnerable in a way that I think is scarier than if you're just having sex.  

You really don't know people for whom sex is just something that feels good and doesn't have a huge emotional connection?  It's not that way for me, but I've definitely known folks who did not ascribe much more meaning to sex than they would to eating a nice meal.  

It's not what I want for my kids....I'm kind of agnostic on the waiting for marriage topic, but I don't want sex to be casual for them.  But I've definitely known more than a few people like that, and they aren't bad people or anything.  

Yeah, but no one I would want to marry.

He has put some stuff only in my name. Most is in both of our names.  Nothing is just in his name. LOL.  He would be in a world of hurt if I left him right now, but I won't and he knows that. 

[Katy]

I think purity culture is much more damaging than premarital sex.  But I also wish both of my (divorced) parents hadn't laughed at the idea of waiting.  I know people so deep in purity culture they waited for marriage to kiss, after a college degree! 

[TexasProud]

9 minutes ago, Katy said:

I think purity culture is much more damaging than premarital sex.  But I also wish both of my (divorced) parents hadn't laughed at the idea of waiting.  I know people so deep in purity culture they waited for marriage to kiss, after a college degree! 

Yeah that is way too extreme.  I told my daughter that was nuts.  Again, for me, not about purity.  Never used the word.  It is about common sense and safety. 

[Junie]

I think that sex before marriage is a sin, so yes, waiting was important for me and I teach my kids to wait.

I don't think waiting until marriage to kiss is wrong, but I think the emphasis on it is wrong.  I don't think that the pastor should announce during the wedding that this is their first kiss.  I don't think anyone needs to know.  But, I think for some couples it might be a good thing to wait before having any physical intimacy.

 

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Junie said:

But, I think for some couples it might be a good thing to wait before having any physical intimacy.

 

Why?

[gardenmom5]

I think it's important-  I'm the only in my family who waited (my parents didn't wait either. - and that was the 50s!)   I also have (and have had) the most stable marriage of all of them.  no feel good hormones to cloud my thinking.

I think people who think engagements don't get broken are naïve (or broken engagements only happen to other people) - happens all the time.  dh has two  childhood friends (I love and respect both of them) - with whom he is still friends (60+ years later.*) - they called off their wedding a month before the date.  (both were mid-twenties). It was years before they spoke to each other again ( at my wedding) - but because there had been nothing physical, they were able far more easily resume the friendship.  

 
*one is 1st cousin's once removed to our dsil. - we found out after he and dd were engaged.  His father and dh's friend grew up in different states.

[gardenmom5]

19 minutes ago, Katy said:

I think purity culture is much more damaging than premarital sex.  But I also wish both of my (divorced) parents hadn't laughed at the idea of waiting.  I know people so deep in purity culture they waited for marriage to kiss, after a college degree! 

Purity culture is it's own thing (and yeah, it's creepy) - a lot of "wait until marriage" is NOT "purity culture".

[prairiewindmomma]

I think calling off an engagement is much more preferable to a marriage followed by a divorce. Honestly, I think we should all celebrate ended engagements! Bullets dodged!!

I know of many many couples in the church who had quick engagements (3 months or under) so that they could maintain chastity. Dating for more than 6 months was the exception, not the rule. I would much rather couples date a long time and have sex before and then break it off rather than put children through a divorce.

Dh dated for a year. I think we are the only couple I know who did so in the church where we were both physically present the whole time (not long distance).

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

they called off their wedding a month before the date.  (both were mid-twenties). It was years before they spoke to each other again ( at my wedding) - but because there had been nothing physical, they were able far more easily resume the friendship.  

I don't understand the bolded. What does one have to do with the other?

And yes, engagements can be broken. But 50% of marriages end in divorce, too - not a great track record either.

[Terabith]

Maybe as a spin off to a spin off....what do you teach your kids about m*sturb*tion?  I feel like it's an important way to get to know yourself, and I have offered to purchase aids for my kids.  Neither has taken me up on it, though.  

[Junie]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Why?

I waited until marriage to have sex, but it was hard.  I think it would have been much easier for me to wait if there had not been previous physical intimacy that had wakened my desires.  When I was in high school, I was on a date and the boy kissed me without asking.  This was long before the days of the expectation of consent, but I was horrified that he kissed me without asking.  But at the same time I liked it and wanted more.  Then when I was in college a jerk pretended he liked me and kissed me.  And then he sexually assaulted me.  It took me decades to realize that's what it was, though, because while I didn't want him to touch me, I also on some level enjoyed it.  And I wanted to experience it again (with someone else) on my own terms.  This made waiting much, much harder for me.

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, Junie said:

I think that sex before marriage is a sin, so yes, waiting was important for me and I teach my kids to wait.

I don't think waiting until marriage to kiss is wrong, but I think the emphasis on it is wrong.  I don't think that the pastor should announce during the wedding that this is their first kiss.  I don't think anyone needs to know.  But, I think for some couples it might be a good thing to wait before having any physical intimacy.

 

Yes, that is so weird.  I also don't like references to the honeymoon night in a wedding ceremony.  I mean, lets not destroy the dignity of the occasion.  

[Terabith]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Yes, that is so weird.  I also don't like references to the honeymoon night in a wedding ceremony.  I mean, lets not destroy the dignity of the occasion.  

And also, especially when people have waited on marriage to have sex, the wedding night is sometimes a bit of a disaster.  There's so much pressure and they don't know what they want/ need.  It sets up unrealistic expectations that are very painful.  

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Junie said:

I waited until marriage to have sex, but it was hard.  I think it would have been much easier for me to wait if there had not been previous physical intimacy that had wakened my desires.  When I was in high school, I was on a date and the boy kissed me without asking.  This was long before the days of the expectation of consent, but I was horrified that he kissed me without asking.  But at the same time I liked it and wanted more.  Then when I was in college a jerk pretended he liked me and kissed me.  And then he sexually assaulted me.  It took me decades to realize that's what it was, though, because while I didn't want him to touch me, I also on some level enjoyed it.  And I wanted to experience it again (with someone else) on my own terms.  This made waiting much, much harder for me.

Although I don't think there should be hard and fast rules about kissing.....I do see the wisdom in not just kissing every one you go one one date with!  

Dh kissed me the night he met me!  We were both in our 40s by then, were both well aware of the progression of intimacy....not really the wisest move imo.  But I liked it!  LOL

[GoodGrief3]

I like what you said about making virginity an idol. That is certainly what humans tend to do...take principles to an extreme.

I don't know that I would say that it is important to wait for a life partner before engaging in sexual activity. I do wish we had more respect for sex in general, both as a life giving force and a means of connection between people.

The current prevalent hookup/porn culture is not doing our societal mental health any favors. But, again, humans have never been good at moderation.

[BlsdMama]

@Terabith your upbringing is different than mine and the irony is that I went to a Catholic high school. I don’t remember abstinence as a teaching. I can name a handful of girls who didn’t dilly dally with the opposite gender. My parents were off the opinion that teens do what teens do. 
i joke that I homeschool because of all the mistakes I made in high school and there’s way more truth than humor to that joke. I have deep and lasting regrets. 
 

I believe God’s best plan is abstinence until marriage, therefore I teach it as such because MY opinions and five bucks might get you a lovely cup of coffee. But something you said really struck me and it was that virginity can become an idol. You’re SO right. I’ve shared our story before.  When purity rings were so popular we really evaluated if that was a mindset we wanted to encourage. It wasn’t. We opted to give each of our daughters a piece of jewelry with a ruby instead. It was to reflect their worth was far above rubies and gem. The conversation was that our field should regard themselves as precious in God’s sight and treat themselves as such. I had a hard time discussing sex to be honest. I felt like a hypocrite... although we never hid the fact that DD was born before our marriage. But I really was exposed to a lot when younger including molestation and pornography. I really did struggle with valuinng myself as just the equivalent of my looks and my body. 
 

If you ask me the importance/emphasis - well, I have conformed my thoughts to that which I believe is God’s preference. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, GoodGrief3 said:

I like what you said about making virginity an idol. That is certainly what humans tend to do...take principles to an extreme.

I don't know that I would say that it is important to wait for a life partner before engaging in sexual activity. I do wish we had more respect for sex in general, both as a life giving force and a means of connection between people.

The current prevalent hookup/porn culture is not doing our societal mental health any favors. But, again, humans have never been good at moderation.

QFT

[Farrar]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Maybe as a spin off to a spin off....what do you teach your kids about m*sturb*tion?  I feel like it's an important way to get to know yourself, and I have offered to purchase aids for my kids.  Neither has taken me up on it, though.  

I teach my kids to please do it. That it's important and good and the safest sex there is.

[Laura Corin]

Not at all.

[prairiewindmomma]

19 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I teach my kids to please do it. That it's important and good and the safest sex there is.

This! I personally hope my kids won’t get married before their late 20s. I’d much rather that they take care of their own needs than feel like they need a partner or feel unfulfilled. 
 

Get an education. Progress in your career. Learn to be happy with yourself. Those things should be a priority in your early and mid-20s compared to marriage and children.

[TexasProud]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

This! I personally hope my kids won’t get married before their late 20s. I’d much rather that they take care of their own needs than feel like they need a partner or feel unfulfilled. 
 

Get an education. Progress in your career. Learn to be happy with yourself. Those things should be a priority in your early and mid-20s compared to marriage and children.

Yep.

[WildflowerMom]

39 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Maybe as a spin off to a spin off....what do you teach your kids about m*sturb*tion?  I feel like it's an important way to get to know yourself, and I have offered to purchase aids for my kids.  Neither has taken me up on it, though.  

Terabith, gosh I 💗 you.   I would die if my mom bought me self help products!   😆😆😆.   "Here you go, dear, your d*ldo came in the mail today."   

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Terabith, gosh I 💗 you.   I would die if my mom bought me self help products!   😆😆😆.   "Here you go, dear, your d*ldo came in the mail today."   

Eh, I bought them for my sister (who was 16), my god daughter, and the 74 year old woman from church who was complaining about her husband's lack of ardor.  

[WildflowerMom]

Just now, Terabith said:

Eh, I bought them for my sister (who was 16), my god daughter, and the 74 year old woman from church who was complaining about her husband's lack of ardor.  

Ok, I read this as odor.  🤦🏻‍♀️😆

[Melissa Louise]

Utterly unimportant. 

[Rosie_0801]

Not at all important.

What I teach her is about stages of pair bonding, that anyone who tries to rush her through that is either a predator or not brought up well enough. It doesn't matter which because it'll end in the same place- dude doesn't have adequate respect for your wellbeing. I teach her that that if she sleeps with someone, and decides it is a mistake, dump him right then and there. There's nothing sl--ish about self protection.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think calling off an engagement is much more preferable to a marriage followed by a divorce. Honestly, I think we should all celebrate ended engagements! Bullets dodged!!

 

it's fiscally cheaper too.   

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I don't understand the bolded. What does one have to do with the other?

And yes, engagements can be broken. But 50% of marriages end in divorce, too - not a great track record either.

Most divorced couples are NOT amicable afterwards.   

because they hadn't been physical, they were able to still be friends (years later, after the disappointment of a failed relationship healed.)

[Tanaqui]

I don't think it's important at all, and I think that the "used chewing gum" analogy or anything similar is actively damaging to young people.

As for birth control failing specifically, birth control fails when people who normally use a certain form of birth control forget or choose not to use it in one particular instance. That's why the lab use of condoms is like 98% and the real world use is something like 75% - because that low number counts everybody who plans to use condoms but then decides not to one time.

Which means that when abstinence only advocates claim that abstinence is the only form of contraceptive with a 100% success rate, they are lying, because they cheat. Either we only look at the lab rates, in which case condoms etc. come in at 98% and abstinence comes in at pretty close to 100% (because rape exists too) or we look at the real world rates in which case abstinence has a failure rate like everything else, because some people plan to be abstinent, change their minds, and don't have any form of backup because their backup was "don't have sex".

Sorry, pet peeve here.

[HS Mom in NC]

Premarital sex is not ideal, but not the end of the world. Using contraception is a very big deal, so teaching kids to use 2 together if they choose to have sex really matters.

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

 

 

And the focus on "virginity" as defined by what Faith colorfully referred to as piv conduct is close to incomprehensible to me.  What does that even mean?  Like, all the other conduct is OK, but that one act is in a different moral category? Are lesbians "virgins" forever? I have questions.

So yes, the local purity groups think of sex as p.i.v., and everything else as naughty if done heterosexuality but not "as bad". So the idea is don't do the other stuff because it could lead to the big bad thing, but if doesn't lead to the bad thing, then you did some naughty but still a virgin so we will have a fit and punish you, but then all is good. Sigh. I just can't wrap my head around how they think!

As for homosexuality, they don't really seem to give virginity itself much thought because they consider that to be the ultimate bad. And to be honest, when I have talked with purity ball people in the past, they seem to be profoundly naive. They can't see that there is something seriously creepy about having " weddings to daddy" and pledging virginity to daddy, and being so crazy about virginity, particularly female virginity. They seem under educated about biology and health, unaware of an awful lot of issues surrounding sexuality. So I kind of think that they maybe do not know very much about anything besides the above. This applies to the purity ball/ultra extreme like the Duggar and similar folks. There are a ton of these folks in my part of the region.

[regentrude]

43 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

because they hadn't been physical, they were able to still be friends (years later, after the disappointment of a failed relationship healed.)

I don't see the connection what being physical has to do with it. I was friends with my exes just fine.

The fact that divorce is rarely amicable has to do with all kinds of stuff like money and custody; I think the physical aspect is the least contributor.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

@Terabith your upbringing is different than mine and the irony is that I went to a Catholic high school. I don’t remember abstinence as a teaching. I can name a handful of girls who didn’t dilly dally with the opposite gender. My parents were off the opinion that teens do what teens do. 
i joke that I homeschool because of all the mistakes I made in high school and there’s way more truth than humor to that joke. I have deep and lasting regrets. 
 

That is so interesting to me that abstinence was not taught at your Catholic high school. I was raised Catholic in a very Catholic rural area, but never went to Catholic school. The Catholic high school closed when I was in elementary school and became the public middle school.

But we were definitely taught to abstain before marriage at home, at church, at CCD, by our parents, nuns, priests, etc. Now not all of my high school friends did, but the majority that I knew did, at least during high school. A girl getting pregnant in high school was a very big deal when and where I grew up. The only people openly talking about having sex with their gf/bf and being on birth control were not Catholic.

As an adult, I would definitely not raise my child the same way because like others, I think it is an unhealthy emphasis on virginity that can really mess people and relationships up. That said, I would hope my child would wait until they are in a serious, mature, committed relationship.

And I’m with @Homeschool Mom in AZthat teaching about birth control should always mean teaching to use two forms unless one is fine with getting pregnant. It drives me crazy in movies and TV shows when condoms or any other single method is portrayed as being enough.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

I don't see the connection what being physical has to do with it. I was friends with my exes just fine.

The fact that divorce is rarely amicable has to do with all kinds of stuff like money and custody; I think the physical aspect is the least contributor.

Agreed. It isn't the sex, it is all the other stuff that occurred, the fighting, many times betrayal, lack of trust, abuse, etc. that causes the animosity.