newest covid propaganda is....

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I think moderna has been more transparent and the numbers are better with it. I like how it’s been created and for reasons not quite entirely understood yet, there’s some antidotal evidence it’s better for type 1 diabetics.  So for ME at this point, it’s moderna or nothing for my household. 

I don’t disagree with any of that.  Never said otherwise. And yeah healthcare workers can and some are deciding to be done. There’s a lot who have decided to retire in my area and we didn’t have an abundance to behind with.

I can say I understand how people are thinking and feeling without agreeing with how they are acting.

But a huge problem with how this is being handled is refusing to address that how people are thinking and feeling is not actually entirely unreasonable.  If it’s as easy as telling people they are ignorant or jerks made them smarter and kinder, none of us would have anything to talk about here. We’d be living in utopia.

If they think Delta variant is caused by a vaccine injury, they ARE ignorant. I'm sorry, they are.

What I need to know is, HOW do we prevent that kind of crap, and HOW do we reach people who are just "done"?

 

[Murphy101]

22 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

But..it doesn't work that way. 

I'm an emotional basket case over this, but getting my kid or my mom killed won't lower my stress. 

Again, if a vaccine reduces infection by lets say, 1/3, and death 10 fold, why is that not enough to get vaccinated? 

And NONE Of any of that explains things like "the delta variant is a vaccine injury" when most sick people are not vaccinated. 

But it does work that way. That it is not working that way for you or me is because we are societal outliers. Most of the vocal people on this board are outliers of thought and or actions.

Again  I’m not saying the logic is accurate.  The train of thought itself is not all wrong even though it does go off the rails.  Add in tribalism and it’s just a natural result.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

35 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

In this very thread educated people who are pro vaccine have stated multiple times how much they disagree with some CDC decisions and statements.  Such as the mask mandates being reduced too early  and phrasing that can often be confusing or seemingly contradictory.

Now remove the educated factor.

And ask yourself in all honesty if it’s reasonable to be so angry that people don’t understand and make the obvious healthier choice?  Ask yourself if in light of that, it makes total sense that a whole lot of people are frankly just fed up and done with this stress and just want to go back to work and family and community like normal?

I may strongly disagree with doing so - but I cannot in sane logic fault them for that sentiment or thought process.

And at some point we need to discuss when is enough enough? Now it’s the delta variant. Maybe the next variant doesn’t respond to the vaccines or the newer vaccines are more questionable - then what? At what point do we say as a nation that okay it’s been 2 year? 10 years? Let’s recycle all the masks, stop making people inject their children or themselves against their will and pick up the pieces of what’s left of life and move on?

Because I'm not comfortable throwing my hands up in the air and saying "fine.  Go ahead and wrack up thousands of dollars in medical debt (because the longer this goes on, the less the cost is going to be picked up by state and federal governments as well as insurance companies).  Go ahead and possibly get chronic illness that will leave you unable to work and to actually pick up what's left of life (been there, done that, have the t-shirt).  Go ahead and risk making your kids orphans, depleting the economy of workers because they died etc.".  No - not everyone who gets covid has moderate to severe illness but an awful lot do and I'm not comfortable gambling with people's lives even if they are.  I actually believe that we have communal responsibilities and that government especially has responsibilities towards our communities. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

24 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Imagine how healthcare providers feel, who are exhausted and traumatized by the last year and a half of watching people die, and are now facing yet another wave of overwhelmed hospitals and preventable deaths because so many people have decided they are "done" with the inconvenience of wearing a small strip of fabric over their faces and don't want to risk a day of feeling a bit crummy to potentially save their own lives, let alone the lives of others in their community, or the health and sanity of the healthcare providers, who are often subjected to bullying and harassment on top of the trauma of their daily jobs.

Too bad healthcare workers can't just choose to be "done" with the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers.

Except that some healthcare workers are choosing to be done.  And they are leaving.  Which of course is going to make it even worse in hospitals.  If healthcare workers are smart, they will move to highly vaccinated areas. 

[Murphy101]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

If they think Delta variant is caused by a vaccine injury, they ARE ignorant. I'm sorry, they are.

What I need to know is, HOW do we prevent that kind of crap, and HOW do we reach people who are just "done"?

I would agree that it’s completely ignorant. 

Honestly a large part of the done is the lack of relief.  I think it’s easy to blame covid when people can’t control  work conditions, healthcare, education and family needs.  Our nation was reaching a breaking point on these issues before covid and covid absolutely took a lot of people already under pressure and put them in a pressure cooker. 

Biden’s package needs to go through quickly and efficiently. And it needs to be just the start.

[Murphy101]

5 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Because I'm not comfortable throwing my hands up in the air and saying "fine.  Go ahead and wrack up thousands of dollars in medical debt (because the longer this goes on, the less the cost is going to be picked up by state and federal governments as well as insurance companies).  Go ahead and possibly get chronic illness that will leave you unable to work and to actually pick up what's left of life (been there, done that, have the t-shirt).  Go ahead and risk making your kids orphans, depleting the economy of workers because they died etc.".  No - not everyone who gets covid has moderate to severe illness but an awful lot do and I'm not comfortable gambling with people's lives even if they are.  I actually believe that we have communal responsibilities and that government especially has responsibilities towards our communities. 

I completely agree.

[Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 Our nation was reaching a breaking point on these issues before covid

Agreed. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

This. I am very pro mask and pro moderna vax. But their reasoning that there’s no point if it doesn’t change anything is not *entirely* flawed.  And many people don’t get 1-4 days time off to recover from the vaccine either.  Or their health is already so bad that risking making it worse for 1-4 days makes them really nervous.

eta: I get that it does change things. That’s why I’m for the masks and for the moderna vax. But as far as how they are living their daily life? For many it changes nothing.  And they aren’t finding it a compelling argument that it is changing things they can’t see in their life. 

We had very few people on here with more than 24 hours of vaccine reaction. I was one of them, so I'm not biased when I report this... and even mine didn't keep me from working for more than a day. 

By the way, "mild" COVID is pretty likely to knock you out for more than 24 hours. Asymptomatic COVID, no, but mild COVID ain't always that mild. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Spryte]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

We had very few people on here with more than 24 hours of vaccine reaction. I was one of them, so I'm not biased when I report this... and even mind didn't keep me from working for more than a day. 

By the way, "mild" COVID is pretty likely to knock you out for more than 24 hours. Asymptomatic COVID, no, but mild COVID ain't always that mild. 

Right, my sister in law had a “mild” case.  She literally lost 15 days of her life completely.  104 fever, unable to get out of bed.  BIL was slightly better, enough that the caregiving fell to him. Both considered “mild.” As were the two kids who had similar to a bad cold. Entire family is considered “mild,” though.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

We had very few people on here with more than 24 hours of vaccine reaction. I was one of them, so I'm not biased when I report this... and even mind didn't keep me from working for more than a day. 

By the way, "mild" COVID is pretty likely to knock you out for more than 24 hours. Asymptomatic COVID, no, but mild COVID ain't always that mild. 

Okay?  The number of people willing to post their health status on this forum is pretty darn small so I don’t think I’d base the entire population on who posts here. For lots of reasons.  And note we got the moderna vax. I’m not suggesting discouraging anyone from getting vaxed. 

[mathnerd]

2 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

What's the point of getting vaxed if it changes almost nothing? 

Would it appease these people if they hear that getting Vaccinated will keep them away from an ICU and a ventilator? That is a win in anybody's book. (People with medical exemption would make a tiny % of the general population, so let us leave those people temporarily out of this debate and stick to the people who refuse to vaccinate and then create unnecessary burdens on our health care system).

For people who claim that CDC or WHO has agendas, have no transparency etc... The truth is that Public Health Policy is a completely different ballgame from an individual's personal health policies. In public health policy meetings at the highest levels, if they kept death rate numbers below 1% of the population for example, during an-out-of-control pandemic, then statistically, they consider that they have done well to keep things from going off the rails. So, they base their recommendations on numbers like this and also what little emerging data that they have. And the CDC also has to walk on eggshells around angry masses fomented by politicians which is a difficult task as well.

But 1% of the american population amounts to 3 million people. If you consider the prospect of 3 million deaths due to one disease in a span of 2 years, the numbers are too huge, the losses might affect every single community and we need to be smart and go above and beyond to protect our communities from this happening. Which is why it is stupid to argue about an effective vaccine that is free for the asking. It is not a big deal to wear a mask for the small period of time when we are inside a supermarket or a church. 600K deaths is too much already.

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Okay?  The number of people willing to post their health status on this forum is pretty darn small so I don’t think I’d base the entire population on who posts here. For lots of reasons.  And note we got the moderna vax. I’m not suggesting discouraging anyone from getting vaxed. 

There are trials, you know. They have data, too. I was just citing this forum because I thought a population of people one actually knows would convince one more. 

The data from here matched the trials, by the way. 

[ktgrok]

38 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I would agree that it’s completely ignorant. 

Honestly a large part of the done is the lack of relief.  I think it’s easy to blame covid when people can’t control  work conditions, healthcare, education and family needs.  Our nation was reaching a breaking point on these issues before covid and covid absolutely took a lot of people already under pressure and put them in a pressure cooker. 

Biden’s package needs to go through quickly and efficiently. And it needs to be just the start.

Now that I agree with. In the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs, if you are not sure how to get through today, what happens in the bigger picture is beyond worrying about. 

But there are plenty of people who are very comfortable in their lives spreading this kind of misinformation. Which although not criminal, is highly immoral. 

[Murphy101]

27 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Now that I agree with. In the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs, if you are not sure how to get through today, what happens in the bigger picture is beyond worrying about. 

But there are plenty of people who are very comfortable in their lives spreading this kind of misinformation. Which although not criminal, is highly immoral. 

No one is more terrified of being uncomfortable than those who are currently very comfortable.  To outsiders I look really comfy. Lots of people look really comfy. But facts are facts. Iirc for over 10 years over half our population has been one paycheck from financial disaster.  That’s a lot of people. And I bet more people than you think fit that category despite appearances. 

[Jenny in Florida]

[Waving hello.]

"Hi, neighbor."

Edited July 30, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Forget-Me-Not said:

🙄 It’s like the old story about the guy who declined a rowboat, a motorboat, and a helicopter while the floodwaters rose around his house. 

 

10 hours ago, AnneGG said:

Churches in our area held a prayer service to end COVID. Two days later they all refused to hold vaccine clinics. 
Every good gift comes from above. You asked, He answered. 

This came across FB today:

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

And then the situation changed. When the vaccine was 90% plus effective at preventing infection at all, AND reduced viral load in those that had it 4 fold, the message was that the vaccine stopped the virus. As it should be. 

Then, a new variant became dominant, where the vaccine is less effective at preventing infection and transmission, but still effective at preventing death and hospitalization in the vast majority of cases. That's not as good, but still a good thing. The message changed because the virus changed. The facts changed. 

Why is that so hard to understand? If the weather changes, people throw on a coat or grab an umbrella. They don't stand there cold and wet because it is hypocritical to change the message or their actions. They adapt to changing situations. Why can't they do that with the virus?

Yes.  Exactly.  

 

[TheReader]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

Except that legally they can’t ask what he has if he calls in sick. 

Hmm. Had not thought of that, but reporting positive Covid tests is pretty much the expected norm here at the moment. Everyone's been very good self-reporting that they got it, isolating b/c of it, etc., etc., etc. (and they do have to show a doctor's note, so that would maybe say also....). 

 

[Murphy101]

36 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

You raise a good point. One that is often forgotten. I hinted it above when I wrote about my concerns about employees being required to vaccinate for crappy jobs. 

We "should" people and I think it's pretty obvious that people should be vaccinated. But we have a population that was hurting before the pandemic. It's like how a bridge collapses and we all wring our hands about the failing infrastructure in our country. 

Our 'cultural' infrastructure is failing just like our bridges and subways and for the same reason. Long term neglect of the public welfare. 

We don't fund our schools and surprise no one understands nuance about COVID. 

We don't pay workers a living wage and surprise they don't come back to their crappy job after a pandemic. 

Families were already on edge financially. 

Jeff Bezos paid less in taxes than everyone on this board. And we wonder why Americans don't make good decisions about COVID precautions and the vaccine? 

Well there’s all that and then expecting these people to sacrifice for the greater good when the greater good has seemed to not much care about them for a very long time.  I mean seriously. Our number one safety net for medical bills is the bankruptcy courts. 

11 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Hmm. Had not thought of that, but reporting positive Covid tests is pretty much the expected norm here at the moment. Everyone's been very good self-reporting that they got it, isolating b/c of it, etc., etc., etc. (and they do have to show a doctor's note, so that would maybe say also....). 

How would you know otherwise? I know many people who flat out don’t get tested and don’t mention if they are feeling a bit tired or whatever. It’s obvious when people do say something bc well they said something.  It’s not obvious at all to me that everyone is on board with self-reporting.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Murphy101

[Corraleno]

15 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Well there’s all that and then expecting these people to sacrifice for the greater good when the greater good has seemed to not much care about them for a very long time.  I mean seriously. Our number one safety net for medical bills is the bankruptcy courts. 

I don't understand this argument. The vaccine is free, and unless someone is literally working 7 days/wk with no day off ever for months at a time, they could get the vaccine the day before their day off in case they have symptoms worse than a sore arm. The percentage of people who are so sick they can't work for multiple days after the vaccine is extremely small, but without the vaccine they're very likely to lose a lot more work and a lot more money, potentially incur huge medical bills they can't afford, and possibly leave their families destitute if they die. It makes no sense to me to argue that poor people can't afford to get vaccinated, when they are actually the least able to afford to get sick.

[TechWife]

24 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Hmm. Had not thought of that, but reporting positive Covid tests is pretty much the expected norm here at the moment. Everyone's been very good self-reporting that they got it, isolating b/c of it, etc., etc., etc. (and they do have to show a doctor's note, so that would maybe say also....). 

 

Doctor's note's can't state the reason for the absence without the  patient's written permission. All they are is confirmation that the person went to the doctor and anticipated length of absence.  The most that can legally happen is contact tracing through the health department, and even with that, the patient's name remains anonymous. That may be enough for an employer to suspect, but it is not enough for confirmation.

I think a lot of companies don't realize the complexities of collecting medical information from employees yet. They will soon, though. For example, this information must be collected and held at the HR level and not released to immediate managers. For small companies, this will be the one and the same person, which has the potential to open them up to discrimination lawsuits. They will need to make sure they dot every "i" and cross every "t" when they set up their procedures. This isn't impossible to do, many places of employment already do this, but it isn't as simple as asking, getting a copy of a vaccination card and putting it in a file folder, nor is it as simple as asking a question and expecting an honest answer. I imagine they will devise a record keeping procedure similar to the procedure they use for drug testing, but it will take some forethought to get it all set up correctly.

 

 

[Murphy101]

21 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I don't understand this argument. The vaccine is free, and unless someone is literally working 7 days/wk with no day off ever for months at a time, they could get the vaccine the day before their day off in case they have symptoms worse than a sore arm. The percentage of people who are so sick they can't work for multiple days after the vaccine is extremely small, but without the vaccine they're very likely to lose a lot more work and a lot more money, potentially incur huge medical bills they can't afford, and possibly leave their families destitute if they die. It makes no sense to me to argue that poor people can't afford to get vaccinated, when they are actually the least able to afford to get sick.

Again. You are talking to someone who is vax and pro masking. The question was brought up as to why won’t people do this. I’m simply positing what I’m seeing around me in reply. 

If for your entire life all you have ever heard is that no one should ever have to pay for anything you need and the only relief you get for medical bills, if you are lucky enough to have enough access to even get a bill, and if you have any work problems is probably just a problem of being lazy and that this attitude is a major identifier of the “rugged American free individual” -  and then all the sudden now just because of some virus everyone is screaming that you need to think about your neighbor - that’s a HUGE cognitive and cultural leap to much of our society.

 

15 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

I don’t understand why people who are antivax and antimask and anti reporting don’t understand that universal masking actually protects their private health information. 

🤷‍♀️ Well let’s circle back to point one made a page or so ago - humans are stupid.

ETA. They are after all the same people who would be rightly horribly offended if someone didn’t cover their sneeze or cough and yet can’t understand that wearing a mask fulfills the same hygienic function. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Murphy101

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

🤷‍♀️ Well let’s circle back to point one made a page or so ago - humans are stupid.

ETA. They are after all the same people who would be rightly horribly offended if someone didn’t cover their sneeze or cough and yet can’t understand that wearing a mask fulfills the same hygienic function. 

This. 

Really, I think the surprising thing is humans made it this far. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

Well there’s all that and then expecting these people to sacrifice for the greater good when the greater good has seemed to not much care about them for a very long time.  I mean seriously. Our number one safety net for medical bills is the bankruptcy courts. 

At least in my state, the very low vaccinations rates are in the very rural, red, sparsely populated counties. From everything I’ve read and the platforms of the local, state, and national representatives they elect, they generally want the government out of their lives, period. They may take advantage government programs like expanded Medicaid in very high numbers (some of the rural counties here benefitted more than any in the country), but they will not vote for candidates who support them. In fact, the only R national rep in my state who represents that area has been one of the major opponents of the ACA all along. 
 

Their representatives will also turn down state funds for things like better internet (need to be able to keep being able to say rural counties are neglected - this was an actual quote, I’m not speculating) and funding to help with vaccinations.
 

And they are also the areas of the state most recovered job wise from the pandemic. On the other hand, per capita covid deaths and cases are now higher than the densely populated parts of the state. So while your points may hold for some populations in some parts of the country, the rural parts of my state would be very, very opposed to the Biden plan you mentioned. The opposition from the very beginning to almost all covid precautions seems much more political/values driven. The majority there have been done with covid and precautions from the very beginning. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Frances

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

But that is only true if they had that fear to begin with. Many frankly do not. In fact, most do not have a fear of covid hospitalization or death. 

Although I realize many say  that, even on this board, we’ve also heard lots of stories from healthcare workers about people begging for vaccines while hospitalized and of others changing their mind after getting very sick and sharing their story so others will take it seriously.

[Murphy101]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

This. 

Really, I think the surprising thing is humans made it this far. 

I half-joke all the time that Darwin’s theory has been disproven wtr people bc by now we shouldn’t be this dumb still. 

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

At least in my state, the very low vaccinations rates are in the very rural, red, sparsely populated counties. From everything I’ve read and the platforms of the local, state, and national representatives they elect, they generally want the government out of their lives, period. They may take advantage government programs like expanded Medicaid in very high numbers (some of the rural counties here benefitted more than any in the country), but they will not vote for candidates who support them. In fact, the only R national rep in my state who represents that area has been one of the major opponents of the ACA all along. 
 

Their representatives will also turn down state funds for things like better internet (need to be able to keep being able to say rural counties are neglected - this was an actual quote, I’m not speculating) and funding to help with vaccinations.
 

And they are also the areas of the state most recovered job wise from the pandemic. On the other hand, per capita covid deaths and cases are now higher than the densely populated parts of the state. So while your points may hold for some populations in some parts of the country, the rural parts of my state would be very, very opposed to the Biden plan you mentioned. The opposition from the very beginning to almost all covid precautions seems much more political/values driven.

No. That’s on par with exactly what I’m saying. They don’t want no govt telling them what to do or taking any taxes!  Even though there’s nothing but historical proof that many things in the Biden plan are very likely to benefit our nation as a whole and many individuals - they’ll say no. Because that’s “lazy” and because “freedom” and because “capitalism”.

If that’s the mentality they have always known and the mentality fostered by our govt policies for a very long time - I’m sure it’s reasonable to suddenly to be surprised that just telling them they should care about their neighbor isn’t effective.  

[Kanin]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

But that is only true if they had that fear to begin with. Many frankly do not. In fact, most do not have a fear of covid hospitalization or death. 

I know. 😕

[TCB]

7 hours ago, TheReader said:

Same. Ours also went so far as to forbid any public entity (schools included) from mandating masks. And there was just an announcement this morning about something to do with fining people that try to...? I can't quite sort it out, but apparently he wants it to all be personal responsibility, and businesses may open/remain open without restriction, except apparently they can be fined $1000 if they try and enforce a mask mandate??? 

I'm still tracking down the actual Order to see who exactly that applies to.  

I am so done with our governor. 

And I understand he’s hoping to run for President, so then we’d all have the pleasure of his “ leadership” skills.

[regentrude]

18 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m sure it’s reasonable to suddenly to be surprised that just telling them they should care about their neighbor isn’t effective.  

But how does that square with the fact that the majority of this demographic considers themselves "Christian"?

That's what has been boggling my mind since the beginning: the insistence of "Christians" and their churches that they don't have a responsibility to their neighbors. 

(And yes, I  know, #notallchristians. However, the demographic Frances describes, the conservative rural Whites, would describe themselves as Christians to a very high percentage.) So somewhere there's a huge disconnect between what they claim to believe and how they act.

ETA: I don't intend the quotation marks as an insult to believers. I,  however, do not think a person who willfully jeopardizes their fellow humans' health and life deserves to use that term.

Edited July 30, 2021 by regentrude

[TechWife]

Just now, regentrude said:

But how does that square with the fact that the majority of this demographic considers themselves "Christian"?

That's what has been boggling my mind since the beginning: the insistence of "Christians" and their churches that they don't have a responsibility to their neighbors. 

(And yes, I  know, #notallchristians. However, the demographic Frances describes, the conservative rural Whites, would describe themselves as Christians to a very high percentage.)

I’m a Christian and it boggles my mind as well. You’re not alone in that!

[Danae]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

But how does that square with the fact that the majority of this demographic considers themselves "Christian"?

That's what has been boggling my mind since the beginning: the insistence of "Christians" and their churches that they don't have a responsibility to their neighbors. 

(And yes, I  know, #notallchristians. However, the demographic Frances describes, the conservative rural Whites, would describe themselves as Christians to a very high percentage.)

For a large percentage of people “Christian” is more a team identity than anything else. 

[Frances]

48 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I half-joke all the time that Darwin’s theory has been disproven wtr people bc by now we shouldn’t be this dumb still. 

No. That’s on par with exactly what I’m saying. They don’t want no govt telling them what to do or taking any taxes!  Even though there’s nothing but historical proof that many things in the Biden plan are very likely to benefit our nation as a whole and many individuals - they’ll say no. Because that’s “lazy” and because “freedom” and because “capitalism”.

If that’s the mentality they have always known and the mentality fostered by our govt policies for a very long time - I’m sure it’s reasonable to suddenly to be surprised that just telling them they should care about their neighbor isn’t effective.  

I think the expectation that they might care about their neighbors comes from both from the overwhelming Christianity in these areas and their ethos of helping their neighbors due to necessity in rural areas.

And I don’t think any message is going to be effective because their leaders either have the same beliefs or milk the beliefs for their own benefit. They are not going to suddenly change their political beliefs. Their minds were set when this started and they haven’t changed. So the message (do this to help protect others or save lives or whatever) or the messengers (national Democrats or Fauci or local public health officials) does not matter and is not to blame for low vaccination rates or push back on masking.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Frances

[regentrude]

Just now, Danae said:

For a large percentage of people “Christian” is more a team identity than anything else. 

And that is blasphemy. 

[TCB]

5 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I wasn't clear. Changes almost nothing wrt to their daily life(mask wearing, etc). If they are inclined to follow more conservative need, they are hearing more about vax side effects/deaths.

I think a big part of the problem is that every new finding is put across as a complete certainty. I wish there would be more messaging that this is what we know now, but, then again, it seems like many people just grasp at every opportunity to double down on their current beliefs. And so few people are willing to admit they might be wrong.

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I’m a Christian and it boggles my mind as well. You’re not alone in that!

Agreed.

In our area, it's politics and conspiracy theories. I've been stunned at people I thought I knew. I've flat out told my kids that if they're ever in a group situation again where certain people are giving a lesson, etc., they are to get up and walk out and find me because I don't want anything those people say to be something my kids hear. (We aren't returning to our former church, but sometimes there are overlapping circles of acquaintances or homeschool events, etc.)

[TCB]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But how does that square with the fact that the majority of this demographic considers themselves "Christian"?

That's what has been boggling my mind since the beginning: the insistence of "Christians" and their churches that they don't have a responsibility to their neighbors. 

(And yes, I  know, #notallchristians. However, the demographic Frances describes, the conservative rural Whites, would describe themselves as Christians to a very high percentage.) So somewhere there's a huge disconnect between what they claim to believe and how they act.

ETA: I don't intend the quotation marks as an insult to believers. I,  however, do not think a person who willfully jeopardizes their fellow humans' health and life deserves to use that term.

This is the thing that is so horrendous to me as a Christian. In my opinion they are not following Christian principles, but rather party political principles, which, again in my opinion, is not what they should be doing at all.

[Danae]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

And that is blasphemy. 

Conveniently, if you’re only in it for the team identify blasphemy is a null concept!

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, TCB said:

This is the thing that is so horrendous to me as a Christian. In my opinion they are not following Christian principles, but rather party political principles, which, again in my opinion, is not what they should be doing at all.

And from very early on, many were not planning to be vaccinated. So again, I don’t think the majority of the blame can be placed on the message or the messengers or MSM (however people define it). There are local public health officials trying to work with faith leaders that will cooperate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/05/us/covid-vaccine-evangelicals.html

[Murphy101]

30 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But how does that square with the fact that the majority of this demographic considers themselves "Christian"?

That's what has been boggling my mind since the beginning: the insistence of "Christians" and their churches that they don't have a responsibility to their neighbors. 

(And yes, I  know, #notallchristians. However, the demographic Frances describes, the conservative rural Whites, would describe themselves as Christians to a very high percentage.) So somewhere there's a huge disconnect between what they claim to believe and how they act.

ETA: I don't intend the quotation marks as an insult to believers. I,  however, do not think a person who willfully jeopardizes their fellow humans' health and life deserves to use that term.

Yes. Well. They can claim all kinds of things and even believe they are telling the truth and still not be true. Or maybe they are telling the truth and they are Christians. Bad Christians are still Christians. Some practicing Christians need to practice a lot more.

ETA:  I chant all the time. God, Family and country. In that order for a reason.  If I ask someone what beatitude or work of mercy or commandment their actions fulfill and their response is to sputter about capitalism and freedom - that’s fine. But don’t yap at me about my moral duty is a Catholic American until they get their priorities in order. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Murphy101

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

And ask yourself in all honesty if it’s reasonable to be so angry that people don’t understand and make the obvious healthier choice?

Maybe that’s not reasonable, but at this point it’s more than reasonable to be angry at those people in influential positions that have purposely spread so much disinformation and tried to use it for their own purposes, whether political or money making or fame or whatever else. Without that, there wouldn’t be such a large number of misled people. 

3 hours ago, itsheresomewhere said:

I agree with this.  Especially in places who are not testing/getting a covid test is an ordeal if you are vaccinated.  

But not testing doesn’t explain the hospitalization and deaths. Vaccination is currently still phenomenally effective at preventing those outcomes. This is clearly not a testing issue. 

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

But there are plenty of people who are very comfortable in their lives spreading this kind of misinformation. Which although not criminal, is highly immoral. 

I was actually just contemplating this as regards DeSantis this morning. I was reading about the condition of Florida hospitals that are overflowing and having to cancel medical procedures, and right after that read about DeSantis selling “Don’t Fauci my Florida” merchandise on his website, and it actually seems criminal to me. Goes back to my first point on this post: people in influential positions spreading this crap to discourage vaccination and preventative strategies. He bears a good deal of responsibility for the number of people dying and not having medical care available in Florida right now.  

[Corraleno]

16 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But how does that square with the fact that the majority of this demographic considers themselves "Christian"?

That's what has been boggling my mind since the beginning: the insistence of "Christians" and their churches that they don't have a responsibility to their neighbors. 

(And yes, I  know, #notallchristians. However, the demographic Frances describes, the conservative rural Whites, would describe themselves as Christians to a very high percentage.) So somewhere there's a huge disconnect between what they claim to believe and how they act.

Sadly a lot of people believe that God will protect them, since they are true believers, and it's not their problem if other people get sick or die — they should have had more faith.

There was a story in the news a few days ago about a 34 year old member of Hillsong church who was anti-vax, anti-Biden, etc. etc., even after being hospitalized with covid. He tweeted “If you don’t have faith that God can heal me over your stupid ventilator then keep the Hell out of my ICU room, there’s no room in here for fear or lack of faith!” He died three days later. 

[AnneGG]

11 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I hate to allow my vindictive feelings to get the best of me, but we will come out of this a better country if religious institutions are made to pay a very, very high price for contributing to the anti-vaccine hysteria. May they never again have even a small fraction of the societal influence they've had in the past.

I just don’t understand the fear my fellow Christians have. So much “fear not” but it’s only being applied to getting sick. So what if it might be the last days? So what if the government is evil? We know Who goes before us. Christians know the Lord is coming back sometime. So what’s the problem?

I’ll sit down now. I don’t usually say stuff like this but after being told 100s of times I’m not using my brain and not trusting God I just want to stomp my foot and say enough! 

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Maybe that’s not reasonable, but at this point it’s more than reasonable to be angry at those people in influential positions that have purposely spread so much disinformation and tried to use it for their own purposes, whether political or money making or fame or whatever else. Without that, there wouldn’t be such a large number of misled people. 

But not testing doesn’t explain the hospitalization and deaths. Vaccination is currently still phenomenally effective at preventing those outcomes. This is clearly not a testing issue. 

I was actually just contemplating this as regards DeSantis this morning. I was reading about the condition of Florida hospitals that are overflowing and having to cancel medical procedures, and right after that read about DeSantis selling “Don’t Fauci my Florida” merchandise on his website, and it actually seems criminal to me. Goes back to my first point on this post: people in influential positions spreading this crap to discourage vaccination and preventative strategies. He bears a good deal of responsibility for the number of people dying and not having medical care available in Florida right now.  

So much this. I understand the message or messengers or the media may not always be giving the best message or exactly the ones people need to hear in order to get vaccinated or mask, but at least they are trying to save lives and health and livelihoods during ever changing times. What are those leaders spreading lies and misinformation and tying the hands of public health officials trying to do except exploit the situation and people for their own personal gain? Who is it they actually care about except themselves? It certainly doesn’t seem like they care about the lives and health of their constituents or overwhelmed, stressed out healthcare workers and public health officials or parents who want their kids safely back in schools. Why aren’t people who don’t like the current national message or messengers calling on these leaders to do the right thing?

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Sadly a lot of people believe that God will protect them, since they are true believers, and it's not their problem if other people get sick or die — they should have had more faith.

There was a story in the news a few days ago about a 34 year old member of Hillsong church who was anti-vax, anti-Biden, etc. etc., even after being hospitalized with covid. He tweeted “If you don’t have faith that God can heal me over your stupid ventilator then keep the Hell out of my ICU room, there’s no room in here for fear or lack of faith!” He died three days later. 

Pride literally kills people. No exaggeration to call it a deadly sin at all. 

[Frances]

15 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Yes. Well. They can claim all kinds of things and even believe they are telling the truth and still not be true. Or maybe they are telling the truth and they are Christians. Bad Christians are still Christians. Some practicing Christians need to practice a lot more.

ETA:  I chant all the time. God, Family and country. In that order for a reason.  If I ask someone what beatitude or work of mercy or commandment their actions fulfill and their response is to sputter about capitalism and freedom - that’s fine. But don’t yap at me about my moral duty is a Catholic American until they get their priorities in order. 

Unfortunately, lots of conservative Christian politicians frequently chant the same God, Family, Country slogan you do. But their other words and actions show something very different.

[Murphy101]

As for the Christians lacking Christian charity and duty….

Jesus broke bread with Judas, one of His most trusted followers. 

So count me not surprised by people not living the faith.

I’m only half-joking when I say most practicing Christians need to practice a hellauva lot more. Myself included. 

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Unfortunately, lots of conservative Christian politicians frequently chant the same God, Family, Country slogan you do. But their other words and actions show something very different.

Yes. Of course. Politicians and charlatans being one and the same are nothing new. 

[Melissa Louise]

Sometimes I think it's hard for the m/c women on this board to 'get' how poverty or insecurity changes a person's thinking to focus way more on the short term than the medium or long term. For good reasons. 

Especially if your social millieu is discouraging, it's a cognitively demanding task to get vaccinated, comprising of critical thinking, research, organisation, regulating emotions, reframing...and that's before the appointment! 

I think a lot of this is less about our (the vaccinated) smartness and altruism, and their (unvaccinated) idiocy and selfishness, and more about the cultural norms we participate in. 

I know it's normative for me to be pro-vaccine. To get vaccinated, I could just lean into my cultural norms. Which are strongly in favour even of (some) mandates. It's normative for me to experience high levels of trust in science, medicine, public officials, public health. I had vaccine leave and sick leave to cushion my choice. 

For someone who lives with different cultural norms, levels of trust, and access to workplace support, the choice to vaccinate has a higher cognitive, emotional and social cost. 

I don't know how you fix that ( and I suspect the issues begin long before Covid) but calling people selfish idiots - even though objectively, they don't have high levels of accurate information, and aren't thinking of the common good - probably won't shift things.

 

[Frances]

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Sometimes I think it's hard for the m/c women on this board to 'get' how poverty or insecurity changes a person's thinking to focus way more on the short term than the medium or long term. For good reasons. 

Especially if your social millieu is discouraging, it's a cognitively demanding task to get vaccinated, comprising of critical thinking, research, organisation, regulating emotions, reframing...and that's before the appointment! 

I think a lot of this is less about our (the vaccinated) smartness and altruism, and their (unvaccinated) idiocy and selfishness, and more about the cultural norms we participate in. 

I know it's normative for me to be pro-vaccine. To get vaccinated, I could just lean into my cultural norms. Which are strongly in favour even of (some) mandates. It's normative for me to experience high levels of trust in science, medicine, public officials, public health. I had vaccine leave and sick leave to cushion my choice. 

For someone who lives with different cultural norms, levels of trust, and access to workplace support, the choice to vaccinate has a higher cognitive, emotional and social cost. 

I don't know how you fix that ( and I suspect the issues begin long before Covid) but calling people selfish idiots - even though objectively, they don't have high levels of accurate information, and aren't thinking of the common good - probably won't shift things.

 

I agree cultural norms definitely play a role, but in the US, at least as strong as the cultural norms that might be present in poverty situations are the political and religious cultural norms in many areas. So I think there are different reasons different groups of people are not vaccinating and/or anti-vax and anti-mask.
 

Even in someone here hasn’t experienced true poverty, I think most are quite familiar with at least some of the growing body of cognitive science showing its effects. I do think local public health officials and healthcare providers have the best chance of reaching the group you describe. I’m not sure those influenced by political or religious cultural norms to be against most or all covid precautions are reachable, but the best chance likely lies with their own faith or political leaders.

[Frances]

7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, and if "the government" (that's a very broad term) worked better for people they might have more faith in it. Over the last 50 years, government has been underfunded. And it's not just in red states. Look at the pension crisis in Illinois and Oregon. 

 

The pension crisis in Oregon is not nearly as bad as many other states. And it was created by leaders of both parties who benefitted from it. Having people retire making more money than when working is not sustainable and that’s why reforms were enacted. Unfortunately, not a whole lot can be done until all of those still covered under the old structure die, and some are still working. Much has been tried, but it rarely passes court challenges.