Josh Duggar was arrested today

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

His parents have released a statement. 
 

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, Forget-Me-Not said:

And in her circumstances it may be easier for her to tell herself he’s being “persecuted” and taking that as evidence of his “godliness” 🙄. Honestly, she’s probably going to need some serious deprogramming.
 

Those poor kids. I’d like to kick her in the teeth for getting pregnant again, but honestly she may not have been given a choice in the matter (ie, denied access to BC, brainwashed to never tell him no, etc). 

this.

being told getting pregnant and having as many babies as possible makes her "godly".  (never mind what having a baby every 12 months for years does to your body.)

 

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

They can be.   I was in great risk of that.   The courts will try to leave the family protected in these cases.

It is a fine dance.  My divorce had to be finalized before conviction for my assets to be protected.

Maybe her FIL will encourage her to get a divorce in that case. 

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

The wait is because the feds don’t arrest or prosecute anyone until they’re sure they can convict. He’ll be in prison until all his children are grown. 

Fed conviction rate is extremely high, so this is probably correct.

[Ottakee]

12 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Question - if there is evidence of s*xual abuse against minors, would that be a different jurisdiction? I'm wondering if that is NOT a federal crime, so not seeing those charges in the indictment doesn't mean they may not be coming. 

Just a thought. It's hard to imagine he was around THAT MANY kids, has a known history of s*x abuse against his own sisters, is currently found to be seeking out what the indictment found, and HASN'T touched any of those kids. 

Likely they secured the federal charges first as those carry a much larger sentence if convicted.  There can also be state charges was was the case in my situation.   Those were dropped though once my ex was convicted and sentenced to 90 years on the federal charges.

That was also done to save the victims from having to testify in a local court.

[Goldcrest]

I read the full indictment or whatever it is called. May 2019 is the date given of his possession. Homeland Security raided his(?) business in 2019. 

I have no qualms believing Anna did not know any of this and he was able to come up with sufficient reasons to explain it all away, as it did make international news. That she chose to keep having children with this man could be understandable in this light. 

But him. He knew. He knew and he got her pregnant again anyway, knowing this was likely to be the outcome. Did he think he was going to get away with it? 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Likely they secured the federal charges first as those carry a much larger sentence if convicted.  There can also be state charges was was the case in my situation.   Those were dropped though once my ex was convicted and sentenced to 90 years on the federal charges.

That was also done to save the victims from having to testify in a local court.

That makes total sense. 

Is CPS automatically involved in cases of child abuse voyeurism like this?

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Surely she has to know without a shadow of a doubt now that her children are not safe with him.

I think Anna knows that her kids aren't safe with Josh and that she's likely never left them alone with him. Because that is pretty standard and in line with how the Duggars and ATI in general dealt with / deal with this kind of $hit. I'm sure it's just standard rules in their house that daddy doesn't do diaper changes, doesn't help with potty, doesn't watch them alone. At least I really really hope so.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Holmesschooler said:

I read the full indictment or whatever it is called. May 2019 is the date given of his possession. Homeland Security raided his(?) business in 2019. 

I have no qualms believing Anna did not know any of this and he was able to come up with sufficient reasons to explain it all away, as it did make international news. That she chose to keep having children with this man could be understandable in this light. 

But him. He knew. He knew and he got her pregnant again anyway, knowing this was likely to be the outcome. Did he think he was going to get away with it? 

Right. I mean, she likely isn't even allowed to use the internet without supervision. 

And people keep talking about her "getting pregnant" with him, but I for one am not assuming their conceptions were all consensual. 

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

His parents have released a statement. 
 

"it is our prayer that the truth, whatever it is, will come to light".

BS - their son is a creep, they knew he molested their own underage daughters!  and still they will defend him.  I believe they think if enough people pray hard enough, he will be found innocent.  'because their family is so godly'.  (even though they likely know he's guilty.)

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

"it is our prayer that the truth, whatever it is, will come to light".

BS - their son is a creep, they knew he molested their own underage daughters!  and still they will defend him.  I believe they think if enough people pray hard enough, he will be found innocent.  'because their family is so godly'.  (even though they likely know he's guilty.)

 

That part about loving "Anna and Josh" almost makes it sound like they think both of them are at fault. sigh. 

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, Katy said:

Maybe her FIL will encourage her to get a divorce in that case. 

JB holds the purse strings, and I can't see him *ever* encouraging her to divorce his son.  She'll probably be expected to go down with the sinking ship.
hopefully, her brother will offer to get her out again, and her parents will encourage her to leave this time.

4 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

 . Did he think he was going to get away with it? 

in a word - yes.

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Right. I mean, she likely isn't even allowed to use the internet without supervision. 

And people keep talking about her "getting pregnant" with him, but I for one am not assuming their conceptions were all consensual. 

If you consider the gaslighting and mind games going on in this cult, she would have been programmed to have as many babies as possible.     

[Goldcrest]

July court date. Isn't this rather fast? Or is that simply when hearings on procedures and other fine points begin? I was under the assumption that courts moved much more slowly. 

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

That part about loving "Anna and Josh" almost makes it sound like they think both of them are at fault. sigh. 

I was thinking they referred to “Anna and Josh” to make Josh sound like the loving family man, and not like a pervert. Also, the Duggars wouldn’t want anyone to think that Josh’s marriage was in any kind of trouble — they want it to look like Anna would never believe such a thing about him.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Catwoman
Autocorrect loves apostrophes.

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

That part about loving "Anna and Josh" almost makes it sound like they think both of them are at fault. sigh. 

My understanding is ATI views deviant male s3xual behavior as the "fault of the wife", for "not meeting his needs". or some such bs.  so likely they do blame her, and think poor josh is being persecuted for anna's failures.

Kinda makes me understand what can drive a woman to shove her husband's boy bits down the garbage disposal.

[Ottakee]

14 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

That makes total sense. 

Is CPS automatically involved in cases of child abuse voyeurism like this?

No but victims service or a child advocacy center might be

[Ottakee]

10 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

July court date. Isn't this rather fast? Or is that simply when hearings on procedures and other fine points begin? I was under the assumption that courts moved much more slowly. 

Federal courts can move that fast...they took 2 years to build this case.  Delays are likely though

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I can’t figure out how to put this under a spoiler.  If anyone can tell me, I’ll do that.

But this is what ATI believes about sexual abuse and sexual abuse counseling. 
My parents attended a basic institute back in the 80s when all their homeschooling mentors got heavily into Gothard.  While my family didn’t, they did adopt enough of the ridiculousness for me to really harbor some lingering hatred towards ATI/IBLP/Gothard. Fortunately this below isn’t part of my personal history, but there was enough damage done in other areas.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[BlsdMama]

23 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

I read the full indictment or whatever it is called. May 2019 is the date given of his possession. Homeland Security raided his(?) business in 2019. 

I have no qualms believing Anna did not know any of this and he was able to come up with sufficient reasons to explain it all away, as it did make international news. That she chose to keep having children with this man could be understandable in this light. 

But him. He knew. He knew and he got her pregnant again anyway, knowing this was likely to be the outcome. Did he think he was going to get away with it? 

Selfish, self involved, care for nothing except his own wants - as evidenced by the charges. That poor, poor woman and those poor kids. 

[Goldcrest]

@Mrs Tiggywinkle.  What pray tell is a moral vaccination? Or am I better not knowing. 

[Annie G]

41 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Federal charges are because it is on a computer and considered commerce that crossed state lines.

Federal charges also carry much stiffer penalties.

In my ex husbands case they went federal and after that conviction dropped the local charges.

In my friend’s case the feds waited until local charges were prosecuted and once he was sentenced to a lengthy term they decided not to prosecute the federal charges. He’s not eligible for parole until he’s around 80 so the feds figured it wasn’t worth it to prosecute. 
I wonder why they didn’t go the opposite- prosecute federal first. It took a few years to finish the prosecution, which felt like too long. The drawn out process was rough on his kids and wife.

[Ottakee]

1 minute ago, Annie G said:

In my friend’s case the feds waited until local charges were prosecuted and once he was sentenced to a lengthy term they decided not to prosecute the federal charges. He’s not eligible for parole until he’s around 80 so the feds figured it wasn’t worth it to prosecute. 
I wonder why they didn’t go the opposite- prosecute federal first. It took a few years to finish the prosecution, which felt like too long. The drawn out process was rough on his kids and wife.

It is complex and they might have gone with the charges with longest sentence/strongest case first.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

4 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

@Mrs Tiggywinkle.  What pray tell is a moral vaccination? Or am I better not knowing. 

Gothard liked to make up phrases that mean basically nothing. I take this to mean that being assaulted would “vaccinate” you against your own moral failings and bring you closer to God.

[Faith-manor]

31 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Are any of the assets even in their names? I know JimBob used to have very tight control over the money.

And would Anna’s name even be on anything? If they wanted to be sure she never left Josh, she might not even have her name on a bank account or a credit card.

Anna's name is not likely on anything. ATI, when followed strictly as this family does, is adamantly opposed to any money or asset control by females, and does not recognize adult female rights to make any decisions. It is medieval with the gloss of modernity.

And it is entirely possible since the raid that JB took everything that he thought he could protect out of Josh's name in order to protect as many assets as possible.

I truly believe the children should be taken away from their mother. I know that may sound horrible to many of you, but I have an insider's view of this cult, my parents having once unwittingly enrolled me at 14 in an ATI "Christian" school without knowing what it was about, and learning that lesson the hard way. There is a very strong chance he molested his own children, and she would not only be encouraged to cover it up ala Ma and Pa Duggar the first time around with him, and she will be blamed for his perversion, possibly even physically beaten herself because that is also part of ATI "spanking" wayward women. The children will not get help. They apparently new after the raid that he was going to go down for some sort of federal charges, and she stayed. She stayed after Ashley Madison. She stayed after they admitted he was a serial child molester. She is herself brain washed in the cult, but that means she simply cannot be trusted with the welfare of her children. They need to be taken into protective custody, and due to the nature of the cult, should not be placed with any Duggar relatives. Sad to say this is definitely one of those times when I am literally rooting for foster care for her children. If and only if, she goes to approved secular therapy, completes parenting classes, leaves the Duggar compound, enrolls in job training or community college, meets regularly with her assigned social workers, maintains a zero contact the Duggar family, and agrees to whatever supervision the court requires, then and only then does she get them back.

[AbcdeDooDah]

From the ATI chart above:

IF the abused was not at fault. 

🤬🤬🤬

 

 

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Anna's name is not likely on anything. ATI, when followed strictly as this family does, is adamantly opposed to any money or asset control by females, and does not recognize adult female rights to make any decisions. It is medieval with the gloss of modernity.

And it is entirely possible since the raid that JB took everything that he thought he could protect out of Josh's name in order to protect as many assets as possible.

I truly believe the children should be taken away from their mother. I know that may sound horrible to many of you, but I have an insider's view of this cult, my parents having once unwittingly enrolled me at 14 in an ATI "Christian" school without knowing what it was about, and learning that lesson the hard way. There is a very strong chance he molested his own children, and she would not only be encouraged to cover it up ala Ma and Pa Duggar the first time around with him, and she will be blamed for his perversion, possibly even physically beaten herself because that is also part of ATI "spanking" wayward women. The children will not get help. They apparently new after the raid that he was going to go down for some sort of federal charges, and she stayed. She stayed after Ashley Madison. She stayed after they admitted he was a serial child molester. She is herself brain washed in the cult, but that means she simply cannot be trusted with the welfare of her children. They need to be taken into protective custody, and due to the nature of the cult, should not be placed with any Duggar relatives. Sad to say this is definitely one of those times when I am literally rooting for foster care for her children. If and only if, she goes to approved secular therapy, completes parenting classes, leaves the Duggar compound, enrolls in job training or community college, meets regularly with her assigned social workers, maintains a zero contact the Duggar family, and agrees to whatever supervision the court requires, then and only then does she get them back.

Not even Jill or Jinger?

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

Anna's name is not likely on anything. ATI, when followed strictly as this family does, is adamantly opposed to any money or asset control by females, and does not recognize adult female rights to make any decisions. It is medieval with the gloss of modernity.

And it is entirely possible since the raid that JB took everything that he thought he could protect out of Josh's name in order to protect as many assets as possible.

I truly believe the children should be taken away from their mother. I know that may sound horrible to many of you, but I have an insider's view of this cult, my parents having once unwittingly enrolled me at 14 in an ATI "Christian" school without knowing what it was about, and learning that lesson the hard way. There is a very strong chance he molested his own children, and she would not only be encouraged to cover it up ala Ma and Pa Duggar the first time around with him, and she will be blamed for his perversion, possibly even physically beaten herself because that is also part of ATI "spanking" wayward women. The children will not get help. They apparently new after the raid that he was going to go down for some sort of federal charges, and she stayed. She stayed after Ashley Madison. She stayed after they admitted he was a serial child molester. She is herself brain washed in the cult, but that means she simply cannot be trusted with the welfare of her children. They need to be taken into protective custody, and due to the nature of the cult, should not be placed with any Duggar relatives. Sad to say this is definitely one of those times when I am literally rooting for foster care for her children. If and only if, she goes to approved secular therapy, completes parenting classes, leaves the Duggar compound, enrolls in job training or community college, meets regularly with her assigned social workers, maintains a zero contact the Duggar family, and agrees to whatever supervision the court requires, then and only then does she get them back.

That’s not really the way CPS works. I wish it was though. They may require interviews but with Josh in jail the children aren’t in imminent danger as far as courts are concerned. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

From the ATI chart above:

IF the abused was not at fault. 

🤬🤬🤬

 

 

In ATI, the abused is always at fault somehow. Even if it’s just being too pretty. The poor men just can’t help themselves.

Honestly, Gothard was a pervert and abuser, and believed all men were the same.

[Carrie12345]

As far as assets, what assets might she even have if allowed? We already know the kids didn’t get TLC money. No house. No car lot, right?  Maybe a used minivan?

[BlsdMama]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

 

Just a thought. It's hard to imagine he was around THAT MANY kids, has a known history of s*x abuse against his own sisters, is currently found to be seeking out what the indictment found, and HASN'T touched any of those kids. 

Exactly. If I’m his sister, forgiveness or no, I’m not asking Uncle Josh to babysit nor am I letting my kids sit on his lap, be tickled, allowing cousin overnights... and I’m watching every look, action, etc. They might have forgiven but that doesn’t mean trusting. 

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

@Mrs Tiggywinkle.  What pray tell is a moral vaccination? Or am I better not knowing. 

You don't want to know. So don't read any further if you are sensitive.

At ATI re-training camps and centers (Watersmeet, MI and Indianapolis, IN), this involves brainwashing by torture to produce the desired attitude and behavior. Methods used:

Withholding of food and water

Sentenced to stand on tiptoes on a chair with an egg or tomato under the heels and if the item is smashed when no on is looking, they know the person took a break, then switch their back or legs, and start again.

Kneeling at an altar for hours on end withholding bathroom privileges - ask me how I know. I peed on a carpeted altar for funsies after being caught with a book of Shakespeare plays and sonnets.

Allowing others to mock and throw things at the offender for hours.

Going through an "exorcism" and I just can't describe that here on a public board.

Hard labor on bread and water rations.

Restraints until confession is obtained.

Once the confession is obtained and penance is assigned and completed - usually very long terms of hard labor on slightly better than bread and water rations, oat meal and a little vegetables and fruit are added, the soul is vaccinated against ever allowing such a thing to happen again, and now the person is a mighty, spiritual warrior for god because what didn't kill you made you stronger.

There is more, but that is all anyone here needs to know. My concern for the eldest child of Anna and Josh is that if he molested her, she is just me enough now to be sent to the Michigan facility for "counseling and soul vaccination". It is of life and death importantance she is removed from Anna's care. Headship, in the absence of Josh, defaults to JB, and JB can sentence that child to this. 

[Katy]

I’m not convinced Anna is trapped by anything but her own mind.  No judge is going to take the Duggar side now. She can call TLC and negotiate her own episode. She could call almost any book agent in New York and get a million dollar advance in probably less than a month. She could call her brother and get enough cash to get to Texas and then figure it out. She could start her own YouTube show & call it “Escaping ATI” or anything else she wants. She could find a therapist who’d agree to be recorded while deprogramming her. Her entire life she’s heard stories of people in prison who had to start their lives over again. 

I’m not convinced she’ll ever do it. I really hope whatever prison he goes to doesn’t allow conjugal visits. 

[freesia]

5 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

As far as assets, what assets might she even have if allowed? We already know the kids didn’t get TLC money. No house. No car lot, right?  Maybe a used minivan?

I thought I read that the assests had been put in her name after the raid. I think she has an LLC in her name called Soli Deo Gloria--or did.

[Faith-manor]

13 minutes ago, freesia said:

Not even Jill or Jinger?

No. The chances of JB, Michelle, and Anna being allowed access is too great. The pressure on Jill would be so strong, and she is the only one likely to try to stand up to it. Jinger is still very connected to the family. Jessa is knee deep in the mess.

[Carrie12345]

Just now, freesia said:

I thought I read that the assests had been put in her name after the raid. I think she has an LLC in her name called Soli Deo Gloria--or did.

Well, my family has had LLCs in our names, but $0 attached to them. 

[Faith-manor]

14 minutes ago, Katy said:

That’s not really the way CPS works. I wish it was though. They may require interviews but with Josh in jail the children aren’t in imminent danger as far as courts are concerned. 

And that is what scares me. The courts are simply too naive about the ATI cult. What happens next, especially to the oldest child if she has been molested by her father, does not even bear thinking about! It gets worse from here, not better.

[katilac]

7 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

 

A buddy makes more sense.  I couldn't figure out how anyone could be stupid enough to send a written confession and bribery offer.  

Oh, someone was that stupid - the buddy said things that implicated MG in the letter, but it was his confession letter in hopes of a pardon (and his bribery offer).

[Goldcrest]

This might be the first Duggar  thread in all the years I’ve known this board where it doesn’t end up locked because everyone is finally in agreement. 

[Faith-manor]

For anyone who wants to know what a moral vaccination is in ATI, I did describe it above. Please do not read the post if you are super sensitive to descriptions of brain washing techniques. I kept it pretty vague for the sake of a public board, but I know if can be triggering. Yet, it also explains why some of us feel so strongly about the children being taken away.

[gardenmom5]

25 minutes ago, freesia said:

Not even Jill or Jinger?

My understanding is they did sue for their back wages - it was settled out of court.
I think they're both married to men that are more "free" of JB's influence.  Maybe more Jill than Jinger.

24 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

In ATI, the abused is always at fault somehow. Even if it’s just being too pretty. The poor men just can’t help themselves.

Honestly, Gothard was a pervert and abuser, and believed all men were the same.

Most abusers think everyone else is the same.  Lies, cheats, thieves, etc. - they think "everyone does it" (those who aren't arrested are just better at it.  It is inconceivable to them people don't act like they do.  and those who don't - are schmucks.)

13 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Exactly. If I’m his sister, forgiveness or no, I’m not asking Uncle Josh to babysit nor am I letting my kids sit on his lap, be tickled, allowing cousin overnights... and I’m watching every look, action, etc. They might have forgiven but that doesn’t mean trusting. 

I know some of these types of cults equate forgiving with trusting.  if you don't trust - you haven't forgiven.  so there may be that expectation too.

An acquaintance's brother was convicted.  She'd told her mother she didn't want to be at her house if he was there - but he mother wouldn't warn her. . . She taught her girls to cry "wolf" when they saw him walk into a room.   It also served to alert her if she was in another part of the house when he walked in.

11 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’m not convinced Anna is trapped by anything but her own mind.  No judge is going to take the Duggar side now. She can call TLC and negotiate her own episode. She could call almost any book agent in New York and get a million dollar advance in probably less than a month. She could call her brother and get enough cash to get to Texas and then figure it out. She could start her own YouTube show & call it “Escaping ATI” or anything else she wants. She could find a therapist who’d agree to be recorded while deprogramming her. Her entire life she’s heard stories of people in prison who had to start their lives over again. 

I’m not convinced she’ll ever do it. I really hope whatever prison he goes to doesn’t allow conjugal visits. 

 Don't under estimate that.  She's been brainwashed to think this is "good" - and (worse) godly.

then - she has six kids, is pregnant with a seventh.  no assets, doesn't even own her own home (JB and M do).  she has little education, has been trained to think all of the outside world is "evil".  she probably wouldn't have a clue where to start to get help on her own.

.Her brother has offered to help her back with the ashley madison thing (she was probably blamed for that by not performing her 'wifely duty'.).   Hopefully - she'll take him up on the offer this time, and that her parents will want to get her out too.  

 

[Laurie]

10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

  They need to be taken into protective custody, and due to the nature of the cult, should not be placed with any Duggar relatives. Sad to say this is definitely one of those times when I am literally rooting for foster care for her children. If and only if, she goes to approved secular therapy, completes parenting classes, leaves the Duggar compound, enrolls in job training or community college, meets regularly with her assigned social workers, maintains a zero contact the Duggar family, and agrees to whatever supervision the court requires, then and only then does she get them back.

This sound very wrong to me.  Unless Anna molested her own children she should not lose her kids because of her husband's crimes and/or her religion.   (There are people here with large families who practice religions that are pro-large family and are pointing fingers at the Duggars for being a fertility cult.  Who gets to decide what religion is a cult and how many children equals fertility cult?)

She's also pregnant.  She shouldn't be required to go to classes or job training to be able to keep her children.   But if you want the newborn baby taken from her in the delivery room and put into foster care, too, then I suppose she'll have a lot of extra time on her hands.   What if she wants to study early childhood education so that she open a home daycare...or will limits be placed on what she's allowed to study?   It sounds like you want her to go from husband control to some kind of government control.  

(Even Mary Kay Letourneau was able to keep the daughters she had with her child rape victim!  She was the convicted criminal, not the spouse of the criminal! )

 

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, Laurie said:

This sound very wrong to me.  Unless Anna molested her own children she should not lose her kids because of her husband's crimes and/or her religion.   (There are people here with large families who practice religions that are pro-large family and are pointing fingers at the Duggars for being a fertility cult.  Who gets to decide what religion is a cult and how many children equals fertility cult?)

She's also pregnant.  She shouldn't be required to go to classes or job training to be able to keep her children.  

 

If she stood by and allowed josh to molest her children - yes, they should be taken away from her.

eta: - she has shown exceptionally poor judgement staying with josh after everything that came out.  Yes, that is ATI brainwashing, but her brother offered to get her out several years (and a few children) ago.  she didn't take it.

 

I'm local to the MKL case, so I may be aware of more details than made the national news - The children were placed with the father's family while she was in jail.  when he turned 18, she married him.  (which was super super sick. his family was sick - he should have been taken away from them. *his family* - ***blamed*** him!!!!)

I was furious MKL was able to keep her daughters.  She's disgusting.

Edited April 30, 2021 by gardenmom5

[freesia]

5 minutes ago, Laurie said:

This sound very wrong to me.  Unless Anna molested her own children she should not lose her kids because of her husband's crimes and/or her religion.   (There are people here with large families who practice religions that are pro-large family and are pointing fingers at the Duggars for being a fertility cult.  Who gets to decide what religion is a cult and how many children equals fertility cult?)

She's also pregnant.  She shouldn't be required to go to classes or job training to be able to keep her children.   But if you want the newborn baby taken from her in the delivery room and put into foster care, too, then I suppose she'll have a lot of extra time on her hands.   What if she wants to study early childhood education so that she open a home daycare...or will limits be placed on what she's allowed to study?   It sounds like you want her to go from husband control to some kind of government control.  

(Even Mary Kay Letourneau was able to keep the daughters she had with her child rape victim!  She was the convicted criminal, not the spouse of the criminal! )

 

I agree with you.  We need to be careful about removing children from their parents.  Children do better with their parents.  If Anna did know about abuse to her children and didn't do anything that is another matter.  If she had no idea, we can't just remove the children bc we disagree with their parenting philosophy or religion.  That gets too murky.  And children who are removed tend to do better with extended family and access to parents if possible.

[HeartString]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

I agree with you.  We need to be careful about removing children from their parents.  Children do better with their parents.  If Anna did know about abuse to her children and didn't do anything that is another matter.  If she had no idea, we can't just remove the children bc we disagree with their parenting philosophy or religion.  That gets too murky.  And children who are removed tend to do better with extended family and access to parents if possible.

What about the oldest one getting sent to the brain washing camp described above?? CPS really needs to be supervising this family at least. 

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Laurie said:

This sound very wrong to me.  Unless Anna molested her own children she should not lose her kids because of her husband's crimes and/or her religion.   (There are people here with large families who practice religions that are pro-large family and are pointing fingers at the Duggars for being a fertility cult.  Who gets to decide what religion is a cult and how many children equals fertility cult?)

She's also pregnant.  She shouldn't be required to go to classes or job training to be able to keep her children.   But if you want the newborn baby taken from her in the delivery room and put into foster care, too, then I suppose she'll have a lot of extra time on her hands.   What if she wants to study early childhood education so that she open a home daycare...or will limits be placed on what she's allowed to study?   It sounds like you want her to go from husband control to some kind of government control.  

(Even Mary Kay Letourneau was able to keep the daughters she had with her child rape victim!  She was the convicted criminal, not the spouse of the criminal! )

 

Disagree.

 

She is in a sex cult. ATI had been identified as such. She knows he molested five of his sisters, one of his cousins, met with prostitutes, and beat one up. Now this. She deserves to lose her children. She stayed, and due to the religious beliefs of headship, the children are now under the authority of Jim bob not their mother. He gets to decide what happened to him. He sent his own molested daughters to the North woods Center here in Michigan for the "moral vaccination" when they were molested by their brother. What the heck do you think is going to happen to them now? Especially the oldest child, a daughter, who is old enough for the ATI/IBLP re-training? And I do not believe for one single instant that Mary Kay Latourneau's children should have been allowed any contact with her.

Children are not property. They deserve better, and it is a legitimate function of society to try to help them and protect them if possible. Anna had to suffer whatever consequences the government puts on her.

Seriously, you think MKL deserved to keep her kids? Wow. I doubt then that you believe in children's rights, which I do, so we simply do not even have a similar world view.

[Jaybee]

Is there any way those of you who know more about ATI could give CPS a heads up to watch out for the oldest's treatment as far as sending her to "treatment"? @Faith-manor@Mrs Tiggywinkle

The possibilities are very disturbing.

[freesia]

4 minutes ago, HeartString said:

What about the oldest one getting sent to the brain washing camp described above?? CPS really needs to be supervising this family at least. 

Yes, I agree with supervising. And maybe the "camp" needs investigating, too.

[gardenmom5]

29 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

And that is what scares me. The courts are simply too naive about the ATI cult. What happens next, especially to the oldest child if she has been molested by her father, does not even bear thinking about! It gets worse from here, not better.

yeah.  Different branches of gov't agencies don't talk to each other adequately.  I'm in WA.  Josh Powell was on supervised visitation with his kids through CPS.  at his rented house, not a 3rd party location.  However, in the meantime - the court itself (wife's parents had temporary custody, and were suing for full custody) had required him to undergo a "psychos3xual screening" after finding dirty drawings of kids on his computer. (apparently since they were "drawings", not photographs it wasn't considered as serious.).  At that point, the supervised visitation thing should have been upped to a 3rd party location (like a police station), cancelling would have been better.   suffice it to say, when it was all over, he had killed his two young kids in a murder suicide.

 His wife's parents won a very large settlement against the state.

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, freesia said:

I agree with you.  We need to be careful about removing children from their parents.  Children do better with their parents.  If Anna did know about abuse to her children and didn't do anything that is another matter.  If she had no idea, we can't just remove the children bc we disagree with their parenting philosophy or religion.  That gets too murky.  And children who are removed tend to do better with extended family and access to parents if possible.

This has NOTHING to do with how many kids they have, being open to children, or use of birth control.The beliefs and practices of the group they are part of are abusive. Full stop. They advocate abuse of children, abuse of women.  

[catz]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yeah and remember how some people knew that the Duggars were bad news years ago but others desperately wanted to believe that they were perfect because they were Christian homeschooling "royalty?" 

I remember the days when people defended them and tried to make it seem like they were being persecuted for their Christian beliefs. Now look at everything that has come out about them and Bill Gothard and other homeschooling superstars. 

Right?! I was an extreme rebel back in the day because I always thought the Duggars weren't nearly as righteous as they wanted everyone to believe.   They used their children for financial gain and forced them to grow up in the public eye.  I always thought they painted a picture of their lifestyle that didn't likely reflect reality.