Josh Duggar was arrested today

[gardenmom5]

14 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 

Seriously, you think MKL deserved to keep her kids? Wow. I doubt then that you believe in children's rights, which I do, so we simply do not even have a similar world view.

Oh, but Hollywood said it was "sooo romantic" when she married the "love of her life" (he was her student starting when he was EIGHT! She had a son the same age.)  they even made a movie about it!

I detest the deviancy of hollywood.  you  hear what those in the business say - they think this is normal.

eta: I became aware of this case during the court hearings during her first pregnancy with vili.  I got the impression if vili had been Caucasian - she would have tried to pass the kid off as her husband's.

her husband took their *four* kids to another state.

Edited April 30, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Ottakee]

26 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

If she stood by and allowed josh to molest her children - yes, they should be taken away from her.

eta: - she has shown exceptionally poor judgement staying with josh after everything that came out.  Yes, that is ATI brainwashing, but her brother offered to get her out several years (and a few children) ago.  she didn't take it.

 

There is a very good chance she did NOT know.  Or if suspected something it was all explained away.   My ex was able to get past a CPS inquiry and they declared it unfounded......until it wasn't.

There is a huge pressure to forgive and move on in that cult as well as the church at large.

Unless/until you are in that position, it is hard to understand.  She likely feared that if she tried to leave her kids would be taken away from her by her inlaws or be left alone with him.

Just saying, we need to focus on him what he did and not blame others that are likely victims as well.

[WildflowerMom]

ATI is not the only cult in this country.   There are other religious sects that do the same thing.    Anna doesn't need to lose her children if she didn't have knowledge of him using child p*rn.  If she did, then sure.   But if not, those kids could be absolutely destroyed if they are taken away from their mother.   

ATI camps should be investigated.  As should any place where children are sent to away from their parents.   I mean if schools have regulations, then other places should, as well.  

[Goldcrest]

24 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yeah and remember how some people knew that the Duggars were bad news years ago but others desperately wanted to believe that they were perfect because they were Christian homeschooling "royalty?" 

I remember the days when people defended them and tried to make it seem like they were being persecuted for their Christian beliefs. Now look at everything that has come out about them and Bill Gothard and other homeschooling superstars. 

Putting anyone in to that type of high regard seems to be an issue all circles, be it homeschooling, religion, politics, science or celebrity. Or the internet in general! The people who do the most talking, seeking of recognition and and renown and like to lift themselves up as examples, also seem to correlate fairly frequently with how broken something is inside and be the most dangerous. Beware the egotistical talker I guess? Josh always seemed to try and emote some air of authority. Like the others. His was slightly more laughable at the beginning. Now it is simply horrifying. 

I still have never quite understood how a man with no children and no wife managed quite the position of influence that Bill Gothard did. But, the same goes for many politicians the world over who treat their wives like trash and embarrass them again and again and are still hailed as party heroes. The rot is everywhere. Nothing new under the sun. 

Banish them all. The whole lot. 

[MercyA]

48 minutes ago, freesia said:

I agree with you.  We need to be careful about removing children from their parents.  Children do better with their parents.  If Anna did know about abuse to her children and didn't do anything that is another matter.  If she had no idea, we can't just remove the children bc we disagree with their parenting philosophy or religion.  That gets too murky.  And children who are removed tend to do better with extended family and access to parents if possible.

I agree as well. 

If she wanted to forgive him after his infidelity with adult women, that was her prerogative. 

She likely told herself that the abuse of his sisters and cousin was something he did as a child.

We do not know she knew anything about the child abuse photos. 

Based on what we know at this time, she has done nothing to deserve the loss of her children.

Edited April 30, 2021 by MercyA

[HeartString]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I agree as well. 

If she wanted to forgive him after his infidelity with adult women, that was her prerogative. 

She likely told herself that the abuse of his sisters and cousin was something he did as a child.

We do not know she knew anything about the child abuse photos. 

Based on what we know at this time, she has done nothing to deserve the loss of her children.

I do wonder if she is actually the one in charge of her children right now though.   

[gardenmom5]

29 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

There is a very good chance she did NOT know.  Or if suspected something it was all explained away.   

If you read my post - you would know I qualified that with IF he molested his kids.  That is as yet  unknown.  Even if she didn't know if he did or not - she knew the rest.

are you saying she didn't know he molested five (or was it four) of his sisters? a cousin? someone else?

that she didn't know he beat up a prostitute he met through ashley madison? 

Those are ALL things that were in the news.  repeatedly.

even if she didn't see it in the news - her brother *did*, and offered her help if she would leave.

 

I understand gaslighting - but those were things that got state/local authorities involved, in addition to the news coverage with details.

It's not known if he abused his own children or not.  at the very least - she needs to get her children away from the duggars, and she needs mental health counseling from a licensed therapist - not someone from ATI or their ilk.

Edited April 30, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Annie G]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Anna's name is not likely on anything. ATI, when followed strictly as this family does, is adamantly opposed to any money or asset control by females, and does not recognize adult female rights to make any decisions. It is medieval with the gloss of modernity.

And it is entirely possible since the raid that JB took everything that he thought he could protect out of Josh's name in order to protect as many assets as possible.

 

After the raids in 2019, Free Jinger posted screenshots of property records showing transfer out of Josh’s name and into Anna’s. Jim Bob’s mother held property in her name only for years while she was married, and Michelle has owned property in the past. 
I’m not saying that Anna had any real control over those assets, but things were put in her name.  Owning property in name only isn’t much of a step away from patriarchy though.

[MercyA]

Just now, HeartString said:

I do wonder if she is actually the one in charge of her children right now though.   

Legally, she should be, so I'm hoping and praying she gets the hell out.

[pinball]

I find it an awful statement about our culture that almost everyone who mentioned a way for Anna to make money —-

(except someone who mentioned studying and starting an preschool/daycare. If others mentioned another way, I missed it)

—- thought she should write a book or get on TV or start a YouTube channel.

The LAST thing that family needs is more exposure! And to sell her “story” and “self” for money...how is that healthy? 

She needs a quiet place to raise her kids away from the exploitation of screens and intrusive sharing.

[hjffkj]

3 minutes ago, pinball said:

I find it an awful statement about our culture that almost everyone who mentioned a way for Anna to make money —-

(except someone who mentioned studying and starting an preschool/daycare. If others mentioned another way, I missed it)

—- thought she should write a book or get on TV or start a YouTube channel.

The LAST thing that family needs is more exposure! And to sell her “story” and “self” for money...how is that healthy? 

She needs a quiet place to raise her kids away from the exploitation of screens and intrusive sharing.

I think they are suggesting those things as a way to make a large sum of money fast in order to get away from the clutches of the duggars. She does not have the skills to support her large family financially. And I doubt many would trust her with their children after what her husband did. I know I wouldn't once she forgave him for molesting his sisters. 

While not a great idea if the aim is privacy, a tell-all could actually help her break free from that family. It would force them to back away from her to save their image.

[sweet2ndchance]

13 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Unless/until you are in that position, it is hard to understand.  She likely feared that if she tried to leave her kids would be taken away from her by her inlaws or be left alone with him.

THIS!!!!! I don't talk much about my situation because it is so hard even now, all these years later, with nearly a decade of therapy under my belt.... I can still remember that feeling of hopelessness. That no matter what I did, my kids were going to be on the losing end of the stick.... If I left, I could no longer always protect them from their father. Shady behavior, even when it involves other children, does not always translate to being labeled an unfit parent in family court. Like it or not, it's just not how the system works right now. But if I stayed to always be able to protect my children from his behavior, then I could be labeled an accessory and have the children removed from the home anyways because I was unfit for "letting it happen". And sadly, due to brainwashing and victim blaming, it is hard to even get to the point of contemplating leaving until you are knee deep in this mess.

 

9 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

ATI is not the only cult in this country.   There are other religious sects that do the same thing.    Anna doesn't need to lose her children if she didn't have knowledge of him using child p*rn.  If she did, then sure.   But if not, those kids could be absolutely destroyed if they are taken away from their mother.   

Even if she did have knowledge of it, what was she being told by her husband and his family about it? That it was planted? That the world is out to drag his good name through the mud forever just because he made a mistake that he has already repented for? That she needs to stand by him in his time of need because that's what a good wife does? Because these were all things I was told and my ex wasn't even under investigation by authorities. Does she deserve to lose her kids for being brainwashed, guilt tripped and threatened into submissiveness?

Just as it is hard to understand what is going through the mind of someone like Anna Duggar and why she doesn't just leave this mess in the rearview mirror, I can guarantee it is equally hard for her to see a life where she is an autonomous and competent human being capable of living a better life for herself and being a good parent to her children. How do I know this? Because I've walked more than a mile in her shoes.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad Josh Duggar was arrested. He is a creep, no doubt about it. He deserves to be locked away for as long as possible because this is now undoubtedly a recurring theme with him. But I guess due to the fact that I have way more experience than I would like to talk about with kind of life Anna is living, I don't necessarily pity her, but I do completely get it. It is not as easy as just leaving the situation behind even if it looks that way to those on the outside. Anna and her children need help, not more condemnation.

[OH_Homeschooler]

46 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

If you read my post - you would know I qualified that with IF he molested his kids.  That is as yet  unknown.  Even if she didn't know if he did or not - she knew the rest.

are you saying she didn't know he molested five (or was it four) of his sisters? a cousin? someone else?

that she didn't know he beat up a prostitute he met through ashley madison? 

Those are ALL things that were in the news.  repeatedly.

even if she didn't see it in the news - her brother *did*, and offered her help if she would leave.

 

I understand gaslighting - but those were things that got state/local authorities involved, in addition to the news coverage with details.

It's not known if he abused his own children or not.  at the very least - she needs to get her children away from the duggars, and she needs mental health counseling from a licensed therapist - not someone from ATI or their ilk.

 

Here's what people don't understand. These men are master manipulators. They can explain away anything. Part of me thinks "What he did before they were married should have been a huge red flag." BUT. Was he ever arrested for it? Did he ever receive any other punishment besides a stern talking-to?

If Anna knew about his sisters, did Josh tell her "That didn't happen." Or "Something happened but it really wasn't as bad as they say." Or "Yes, I did that to my sisters but my dad told me to stop and now I see that it was wrong and I was a kid and I will never do it again." 

When my child disclosed about what her father/my husband did to her, I believed her. But it took a long time to truly accept that he actually did that to her. He was under investigation for months, during which time he was not allowed contact with the kids. But it was such an abrupt separation that I kept in touch with him, at the very least to discuss household logistics.

During that time, he did an excellent job of keeping me guessing. He never outright denied anything, but he kept me thinking it was all a series of innocent mistakes. We had been married for 15 years and never once did I think he was a child molester. But he was doing it in my own home. He groomed me into believing he was the best possible father and husband and it never once occurred to me to think he was capable of doing what he was doing. Even looking back with hindsight, there are very few signs I can piece together that would have tipped me off. I feel awful that I didn't protect my daughter but I can also honestly and truly say that I DID NOT KNOW. 

At the time of the disclosure, I had an education and a job and fewer kids than Anna does. I had options. And it was still hard to accept the truth. What did it for me was a) I lived with the victim, so I could see the effect his actions had on her. She had been in therapy for years before her disclosure but never made any progress. Once she disclosed, it all made sense. Note that none of her therapists or her psychiatrist ever suspected that she was a victim of CSA, either. And b) After his arrest, communication with him became nearly impossible (at that point I desperately needed him to give me access to our accounts, because though I begged him for months leading up to his arrest, he didn't bother to get me the logins. He was convinced he was going to be let off the hook). The less he was able to tell me his lies and justifications, the clearer everything became.  

So I really don't think it's fair at this point to blame Anna, even if she had some sense of the accusations before they were married. It's not just the direct victims that are groomed. 

[Ottakee]

13 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

 

Here's what people don't understand. These men are master manipulators. They can explain away anything. Part of me thinks "What he did before they were married should have been a huge red flag." BUT. Was he ever arrested for it? Did he ever receive any other punishment besides a stern talking-to?

If Anna knew about his sisters, did Josh tell her "That didn't happen." Or "Something happened but it really wasn't as bad as they say." Or "Yes, I did that to my sisters but my dad told me to stop and now I see that it was wrong and I was a kid and I will never do it again." 

When my child disclosed about what her father/my husband did to her, I believed her. But it took a long time to truly accept that he actually did that to her. He was under investigation for months, during which time he was not allowed contact with the kids. But it was such an abrupt separation that I kept in touch with him, at the very least to discuss household logistics.

During that time, he did an excellent job of keeping me guessing. He never outright denied anything, but he kept me thinking it was all a series of innocent mistakes. We had been married for 15 years and never once did I think he was a child molester. But he was doing it in my own home. He groomed me into believing he was the best possible father and husband and it never once occurred to me to think he was capable of doing what he was doing. Even looking back with hindsight, there are very few signs I can piece together that would have tipped me off. I feel awful that I didn't protect my daughter but I can also honestly and truly say that I DID NOT KNOW. 

At the time of the disclosure, I had an education and a job and fewer kids than Anna does. I had options. And it was still hard to accept the truth. What did it for me was a) I lived with the victim, so I could see the effect his actions had on her. She had been in therapy for years before her disclosure but never made any progress. Once she disclosed, it all made sense. Note that none of her therapists or her psychiatrist ever suspected that she was a victim of CSA, either. And b) After his arrest, communication with him became nearly impossible (at that point I desperately needed him to give me access to our accounts, because though I begged him for months leading up to his arrest, he didn't bother to get me the logins. He was convinced he was going to be let off the hook). The less he was able to tell me his lies and justifications, the clearer everything became.  

So I really don't think it's fair at this point to blame Anna, even if she had some sense of the accusations before they were married. It's not just the direct victims that are groomed. 

THIS.   So much THIS.

[MercyA]

From Jinger and Jeremy: "We are disturbed to hear the charges against Josh. While this case must go through the legal system, we want to make it clear that we absolutely condemn any form of child abuse and fully support the authorities and judicial process in their pursuit of justice." (Instagram)

From Jill and Derick: "We just found out this information yesterday. It is very sad." (statement to People magazine)

Edited April 30, 2021 by MercyA

[BlsdMama]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

I find it an awful statement about our culture that almost everyone who mentioned a way for Anna to make money —-

(except someone who mentioned studying and starting an preschool/daycare. If others mentioned another way, I missed it)

—- thought she should write a book or get on TV or start a YouTube channel.

The LAST thing that family needs is more exposure! And to sell her “story” and “self” for money...how is that healthy? 

She needs a quiet place to raise her kids away from the exploitation of screens and intrusive sharing.

This. The craving for attention cannot lead to anything good - and it opens her kids up to constant criticism, a lack of privacy, and learning to sell their lives. 

[katilac]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

This has NOTHING to do with how many kids they have, being open to children, or use of birth control.The beliefs and practices of the group they are part of are abusive. Full stop. They advocate abuse of children, abuse of women.  

And yet CPS is not removing children by the thousands because their parents hold these beliefs. 

And CPS does not automatically remove children when one parent is arrested, even on child sexual abuse charges, particularly if that parent is not in the household (as Josh currently is not).

Children are often 'reunited' with their parents after suffering known and severe physical abuse. CPS is not worrying about people's religious beliefs. 

[Goldcrest]

I am so sorry to read what so many of you have gone through. 

I appreciate the tone of this thread and all of the information.  It was much easier to keep pace than FJ. I supposed I popped back on at a good time to check in. 

Take care lovelies. 

[Katy]

Selling her story (unless she does it through a YouTube channel, which is unlikely) would be a one-time opportunity to get enough money to permanently leave the Duggars.  It wouldn’t need to exploit anything but her own experience. Her children could remain private figures. She could tell her side sympathetically, do one exclusive interview, collect the royalties, and ask for privacy so she and her children could have time to heal, buy a trailer to put in her parents yard in Florida, and go to a community college to get enough education to get a decent job. She has nice teeth now, maybe she could be a dental hygienist. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

2 hours ago, Jaybee said:

Is there any way those of you who know more about ATI could give CPS a heads up to watch out for the oldest's treatment as far as sending her to "treatment"? @Faith-manor@Mrs Tiggywinkle

The possibilities are very disturbing.

There is so much online now from ATI survivors.  The children of the first generation are now grown up. 

Myckenzie(however it’s spelled) is not old enough for Journey of the Heart.  It’s 13-30; I just double checked. Truthfully, every teenage girl I knew who was in ATI went to that.  Nobody described anything more than corny stupid sessions that were familiar to anyone going to church camp(the bonfire “burn all your sin and confess and give a good testimony” pressure).  But I don’t know anyone who has gone in the last 20 years.  The whole point of the retreat then was to find the roots of sin in your life, but I suspect the people I know who went didn’t have much “sin” or trauma in their lives, and weren’t affected by it as much as someone who had molested, abused, etc.  They viewed it as a camp with a workbook and lots of God talk.

I do know only one family still involved in ATI.  They confuse me, actually,  they were heavily involved, did only the Wisdom books, but the oldest daughter is doing a fully funded STEM PhD right now.  The boys have recently(last 5 years) been to ALERT and were platoon leaders with one of the Duggar boys, according to the mom’s Facebook. One has gone on to serve in the military. They described ALERT as nothing more than an emergency preparedness/first responders boot camp, but I did teach one of the boys who’d graduated from it in EMT class and his skills were dismal. Both EMS and firefighting. So if that’s what they claimed to be teaching there, they weren’t doing a good job.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Katy]

CPS doesn’t automatically remove children if they’re beaten into the hospital or sexually abused. Children do not have rights in the USA.  

[Eos]

On 4/30/2021 at 10:26 AM, Ottakee said:

been there, done that.

Respect to you, Ottakee and all who are courageously telling their stories here, this must be triggering.

Harpy

Edited February 6, 2023 by Eos

[MercyA]

Will Anna's children automatically be questioned by CPS or law enforcement?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

And what I'm celebrating is that they will no longer be victimized by him. I'm not happy he got caught because I just don't like the guy or because I want him to be an awful person. I'm happy he got caught because I don't want him able to continue to abuse and use his wife (and potentially kids) any longer. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm not delighting in him being terrible, but in him having to face justice, and be taken away where he can't hurt them anymore. 

Definitely praying. Domestic abuse is always terrible, but it adds a whole other sickening layer when it is justified by Jesus. I hope ALL those impacted by ATI find freedom, and a faith community that doesn't abuse them. 

I disagreed with your use of the term, “hot diggety”. It sounds flippant, like you’re gearing up to bing-watch your favorite Netflix. Even if he goes to Azkaban for the rest of his life, it isn’t really “justice.” It does not un-do harm done. 

I wish I could crawl inside the minds of Jill and Jessa right now. 

Jill and Derrick gave an interview somewhat recently. Init, all I could think was how damaged Jill seems to be. She struggles to make any statement without equivocation. She struggles just to say she cut her hair because she wanted shorter hair. Ill see if I can find it and link it here. 

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Will Anna's children automatically be questioned by CPS or law enforcement?

If they aren’t the victims, which from the description in the press release it sounds unlikely, the images were procured from the internet, maybe not. Hopefully the judge in his own case will ask CPS to investigate despite the jurisdiction issue of federal/state & give a report. It’s also possible that hundreds of people are filing a complaint right now and due to sheer volume CPS will investigate.

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

I disagreed with your use of the term, “hot diggety”. It sounds flippant, like you’re gearing up to bing-watch your favorite Netflix. Even if he goes to Azkaban for the rest of his life, it isn’t really “justice.” It does not un-do harm done. 

I wish I could crawl inside the minds of Jill and Jessa right now. 

Jill and Derrick gave an interview somewhat recently. Init, all I could think was how damaged Jill seems to be. She struggles to make any statement without equivocation. She struggles just to say she cut her hair because she wanted shorter hair. Ill see if I can find it and link it here. 

I took that totally different than you did. I thought Jill was doing her best to both tell the truth but also in a nuanced, respectful way. I thought she’d been doing a lot of emotional work to figure all of that out, to share the truth without disrespecting her parents. I felt so proud of her. And a little surprised her smug husband was doing so well by her. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Katy
Clarity

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

I took that totally different than you did. I thought Jill was doing her best to both tell the truth but also in a nuanced, respectful way. I thought she’d been doing a lot of emotional work to figure all of that out, to share the truth without disrespecting her parents. I felt so proud of her. And a little surprised her smug husband was doing so well by her. 

Interesting. 

I do feel glad for her, because she seems to have married “the best” guy who wouldn’t just stay under JB’s thumb, but I see a lot of damage in her stammering and inability to strongly, clearly say she did these things because she wanted to.  Like, really, it shouldn’t take a two-minute explanation and saying you were donating hair for it to be “okay” to cut your hair. The only explanation she actually needs is, “I wanted to.” Or, if we’re being really considerate, “I wanted to and Derrick said he liked it fine.” 

Back when I was paying attention to this, I thought Jessa chose the worst, because it looked like Ben would just be JBs errand boy. 

[Katy]

12 minutes ago, Quill said:

Interesting. 

I do feel glad for her, because she seems to have married “the best” guy who wouldn’t just stay under JB’s thumb, but I see a lot of damage in her stammering and inability to strongly, clearly say she did these things because she wanted to.  Like, really, it shouldn’t take a two-minute explanation and saying you were donating hair for it to be “okay” to cut your hair. The only explanation she actually needs is, “I wanted to.” Or, if we’re being really considerate, “I wanted to and Derrick said he liked it fine.” 

Back when I was paying attention to this, I thought Jessa chose the worst, because it looked like Ben would just be JBs errand boy. 

I tend to think Jessa always wanted to be the golden child, but it was never her, and she’s still looking for approval. And I think Jessa is firmly in control of their relationship even if they pretend otherwise. 

[Ottakee]

50 minutes ago, Harpymom said:

Respect to you, Ottakee and all who are courageously telling their stories here, this must be triggering.

Harpy

Thank you.  It is a bit triggering but I also hope my experiences help other women and can help others (even here) see the complexities of these situations 

[Ottakee]

46 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Will Anna's children automatically be questioned by CPS or law enforcement?

Likely they will be evaluated by a Children's Advocacy Center.  These are people specially trained in sexual abuse in children.  They work with counselors, law enforcement, medical and other professionals so that the child's testimony is accurately recorded and the child does not have to tell their story over and over again.   They also are trained not to lead or dismiss a child.   It is very specialized work.

[popmom]

5 hours ago, Holmesschooler said:

 Did he think he was going to get away with it? 

Yes. I truly believe he has NPD and is a psychopath. 

ETA: I could have predicted JB and Michelle’s official statement. I’m disgusted by it. 

I was glad to see Jinger and Jeremy’s statement.

Edited April 30, 2021 by popmom

[sweet2ndchance]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

Yes. I truly believe he has NPD and is a psychopath. 

Psychopath? Almost unquestionably, yes. I absolutely agree that he is some sort of psychopath. It would be hard for him not to be given the nature of the evidence against him, both past and present.

But I really hate how "popular" the NPD label has become and how flippantly it is used to describe anyone who displays self-centered or unscrupulous behavior toward others. One can be a self-centered, deplorable jerk of a person and not be NPD. There is evil, vile and disgusting and then there is NPD. It really is a whole other thing that is just indescribable and incomprehensible until you have seen it first hand.

Honestly, I have no idea if Josh Duggar has NPD. I have not followed him particularly and don't know enough about him as a person to make that statement confidently. He is evil, vile, disgusting and deplorable, absolutely. But that itself does not make him NPD.

Now, his parents, on the other hand, absolutely give me the NPD vibe that I am so familiar with from my situation. And from my armchair psychologist position, I absolutely think there is a theme of NPD in that family. But that does not automatically make every family member NPD as well. I get the feeling that Josh, being the oldest boy in a patriarchal family, was a golden child. He can do no wrong in his parents' eyes no matter how wrong he actually is. It will take a lot for a golden child to be dethroned usually and even federal charges usually are not enough to do that as odd as that seems to the rest of the world.

He has a problem that isn't something one is just born with. Again from my armchair psychologist position, I think his problem was his way of dealing with his upbringing. Does that excuse him? Absolutely not. I do not know how to make that any more emphatic. Is he a narcissist or on his way to being a narcissist? Could be, but there is also a chance that he is just living and acting the only way he knows how after being raised by NPD parents.

Not excusing him in anyway at all but I do think there are explanations for his behavior, both those that are federal offenses and those that are just questionable life choices, that do not include him being a NPD himself.

Being raised by NPD parents sucks, there are several of us on this board that know this first hand. In my opinion, it is hard, nigh impossible, to survive that kind of upbringing with your mental health in tact. Some just stray further to the deep end than others.... and yes, some do become narcissists themselves but not all.

I've kinda gotten way out in the weeds, sorry about that, but I do whole heartedly agree with @Ottakee . As triggering as it is to read through threads like this, I do believe it is important to help other people understand how complex and tricky situations like these are. As nice as it would be to have, it just isn't that cut and dried. By the time things have gotten this far, the web is so knotted and tangled that you can unravel one knot and create five more before you even know what happened!

 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

There is so much online now from ATI survivors.  The children of the first generation are now grown up. 

Myckenzie(however it’s spelled) is not old enough for Journey of the Heart.  It’s 13-30; I just double checked. Truthfully, every teenage girl I knew who was in ATI went to that.  Nobody described anything more than corny stupid sessions that were familiar to anyone going to church camp(the bonfire “burn all your sin and confess and give a good testimony” pressure).  But I don’t know anyone who has gone in the last 20 years.  The whole point of the retreat then was to find the roots of sin in your life, but I suspect the people I know who went didn’t have much “sin” or trauma in their lives, and weren’t affected by it as much as someone who had molested, abused, etc.  They viewed it as a camp with a workbook and lots of God talk.

For Journey of the Heart camp, you would be correct. For troubled youth retraining, this is incorrect. Children younger than that are sent. It is done in a different building with mostly paid staff or older ( 16+) interns. If you need to know more, see the Indianapolis Star series on the IBLP youth center there. It is evil. The camp is kind of more standard Christian camp fare. The detention for wayward kids is NOT.

ATI began in the 70's. There are two/three generations of survivors now depending on how you count it.

I guess for me it is disheartening to see everyone immediately jump to Anna's rights and not give a crap about the children's rights. I have been sitting here crying, hands shaking, knowing what is ahead for her. I feel sick to my stomach. I have been on the receiving end of their evil. And I was only subjected to it for a school semester. 

I won't come back here again to try to convince you of how evil those sons of b$itches are. I tried to warn people years ago, and it was not well received. I posted pages of screen shots of IBLP materials and their "newsletters" to no good end. But let me describe what ATI/IBLP says must be done when a paedophile is found their midst. The victims must be found and must, on pain of physical beating, food and water withheld, sleep deprivation, beg forgiveness of the predator for being a temptation if they are children of the cult. You read that correctly. They have to beg for forgiveness of the predator for leading the predator to sin. Now let me tell you about what is going to likely happen to little McKenzie. Even if daddy did not molest her, because he was sexually attracted to children that means according to their beliefs he had a temptation, that means some child is at fault for his feelings. They will say it was sin for him to act out on his feelings, but that it is a child or children's fault that he was "lead to sin". Who the hell do you think ATI is going to blame for a child of their poster family going so damn far off the rails? Definitely his kids. Who do you think is going to be on the worst end of that effing stick? McKenzie.

Yes, the Northwoods Conference Center in Watersmeet, MI has been turned in, numerous times with complaints from people in town, concerns from local citizens. This has been going on for decades. We have not had a single LEO, single agency willing to take on an organization with more than 150 million in assets and some bastard quality lawyers to fight their battles nor to be seen " persecuting" a religious group. The only successful action taken was by the city of Flint, MI and Genessee County who kept Bill Gothard from starting another youth retraining center there in the early 90's. Zoning. He was stupid enough to sink money into a property without finding out if it could be zoned for a youth detention center and religious camp. I was relieved beyond words when his project could not go forward.

Nome of this isn't news. It has been around for multiple deacdes and is common knowledge among social workers and LEO's. The state is unwilling to be made out as the bad guys picking on those poor little Christians. The cycle just keeps repeating itself. And the victims keep piling up. But seriously, when has this country ever truly given a damn about the victims of stuff like this? It is why I 100% support a Bill of Rights for children. Kids are not property, they are people too.

As for her custody rights, by state law, yes she has custody of those kids. Does this mean one fig to JBob and company? No it does not. Does she believe she has the right to make decisions for her children? Likely not because she didn't just marry into it, she was raised in it. The "Umbrella of Authority" as is taught in ATI, is that females have no agency of their own. God made them weaker vessels and man to be in charge of them, and at no time is a female to be outside ATI male control or make decisions. So female children are subordinate to their fathers until marriage when this responsibility is handed to their husband, or if they do not marry, always. If father dies, then there two ways this goes. First, it falls to a brother of age who becomes responsible for his mother and minor siblings. If there is no adult male brother, it can go to a grandfather or an uncle, even a cousin. At no time can it go to a male outside ATI. In the case of a widowed woman or one in jail or otherwise absent, it goes to the father in law if alive AND there are children because kids are the property of the male line. Thus, while she may retain physical custody of them, Jbob has literal custody, and Anna cannot defy his choices for the children unless she is willing to leave the cult. Micromanaging female life is the norm. Men are supposed to approve their females' hair styles, clothing, make up colors, choice of musical instruments if allowed instruction, books and other reading material, daily schedules, friends and acquaintances, choose his daughters' spouses, limit their education, and even control how much they eat and when, right down to not allowing tampons because girls who use tampons are not virgins anymore. Yes this is the crap they believe along with the presence of cabbage patch dolls cause women to have childbirth problems among other ATI maternity care dangerous notions.

So I stand by my opinion. If Anna does not leave that cult very soon, she does not deserve to have custody of her children and the state should step in. Chances are they will do exactly not one damn thing about it because Jbob is best buds with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee. So sometime in the coming weeks I want all of you that think "poor poor Anna" to think for a minute about the little girl being told that her daddy is going to jail because she tempted him to think about children sexually and the fact that this cult forces women and children to beg forgiveness and does so with many of the same methods the Pearls use to torture children into compliance.

And don't think these p.o.s's aren't capable of doing that to a grandchild. Michele is the evil slime bag who blanket trained her babies to be afraid to crawl by beating them on the backs of their legs with flexible rulers. Documented here years ago on the old board. Screenshots taken of her bragging about it in an online mommy forum and telling moms where to buy those flexible rulers on sale. If she is gleeful to do that to a baby, it staggers the imagination what she and that monster she is married to will do to an older child, and Anna as ZERO say in it unless she is willing to leave. The danger to those children is so very real.

As a survivor of this damn cult, I am telling you not to be so naive about what is going to happen to Josh's kids.

[Melissa Louise]

I'd substitute able for willing. Able to leave.

[Ottakee]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 

As a survivor of this damn cult, I am telling you not to be so naïve about what is going to happen to Josh's kids.

I hope that she has good outside support that can help her get out.  I believe you.  As an early homeschooler in Michigan the ATI stuff was sorta big in some homeschool circles in my area.  

[Ottakee]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

I'd substitute able for willing. Able to leave.

YES>

[Resilient]

@Faith-manor Thank you. My words are inadequate. The things you describe are hideous, despicable, and breathtaking in that this passes for any kind of religion at all.  Even being on the very outside of the periphery of this sort of thinking has created a great deal of damage in my life and I despise its effects that impact those far away from subscription.

[MercyA]

@Faith-manor, I am sorry that I don't remember, but did your family follow ATI teachings or did you just attend their school for one semester? I thought when your parents realized how messed up it was, they pulled you out themselves? I hope I am remembering correctly.

Thank you for making me aware several years ago of just how horrible (and frankly creepy and perverse) Gothard's teachings were. Something seemed a little off to me about the Duggars but I had no clue what they were following. I was once a "halfway" Pearl defender (i.e. they're not perfect but they teach some truth) and I regret that with all my heart. I pick up their books now when I can just to destroy them.

I agree that ATI is a cult. I agree they are dangerous and harmful. However, I do think there is a good deal of speculation in your post, particularly in regards to what Anna may or may not say to her eldest daughter.

For the record, I feel even more sorry for the kids than for Anna. But I do feel sorry for her, too. And I believe (with my limited knowledge of their personal, specific situation), they would be better off and less traumatized staying with their mother.

Edited May 1, 2021 by MercyA

[Faith-manor]

59 minutes ago, MercyA said:

@Faith-manor, I am sorry that I don't remember, but did your family follow ATI teachings or did you just attend their school for one semester? I thought when your parents realized how messed up it was, they pulled you out themselves? I hope I am remembering correctly.

Thank you for making me aware several years ago of just how horrible (and frankly creepy and perverse) Gothard's teachings were. Something seemed a little off to me about the Duggars but I had no clue what they were following. I was once a "halfway" Pearl defender (i.e. they're not perfect but they teach some truth) and I regret that with all my heart. I pick up their books now when I can just to destroy them.

I agree that ATI is a cult. I agree they are dangerous and harmful. However, I do think there is a good deal of speculation in your post, particularly in regards to what Anna may or may not say to her eldest daughter.

For the record, I feel even more sorry for the kids than for Anna. But I do feel sorry for her, too. And I believe (with my limited knowledge of their personal, specific situation), they would be better off and less traumatized staying with their mother.

Mercy, I tried to respond to this in a pm. I didn't want to jump in and say more here, openly in the forum. So I was going to give you some personal details about my journey because you are a sweetheart person whom I know would keep it confidential, but it said you couldn't receive messages. I am going to guess maybe your mailbox is full.

[KungFuPanda]

11 hours ago, TechWife said:

I don’t  assume the charges are related to the business of his car dealership. It’s possible that evidence of other wrongdoing was located at the dealership in an attempt to hide it from family and others. Federal officials can easily trace IP addresses to locations. It is also possible that the entire dealership was a “front” for other activity. Unfortunately this speculation opens up many different scenarios in my mind, all of them horrific. 

I believe in that culture it is the woman's responsibility to make sure the man is not tempted.  This can extend to the wives controlling all of the devices that go on the internet . . . at home.

 

8 hours ago, HeartString said:

The ease with which skilled people can plant this sort of stuff is pretty scary.  It’s been the subject of many fiction books and TV shows.  Dean Koontz wrote one years ago about something related but different and I’ve never felt so vicariously helpless and terrified.  Almost made me want to run away to live off grid. 
 

But given his prior history I think it’s pretty safe to think it was probably something he did on purpose.  

I don't think some of those nefarious sites are so easy to stumble upon.  The feds aren't going to build a case upon a needle in a haystack that could have been accidentally shuffled in.  I think in real life, you have to put some serious effort into getting into these virtual places.

7 hours ago, Holmesschooler said:

Are the assets that the couple held then subject to forfeiture? As in, can the court seize all of the assets leaving Anna Duggar with nothing if he is found guilty? How does that work? 

I bet Jim Bob controls most of the the assets.  He doesn't pay his adult kids unless they sue him (because it's a ministry), but then he gives some of them houses.  The whole thing is weirdly controlling.  Even when they started a new show after the first Josh Scandal and refocused on the adult children, Jim Bob retained control of the money and contracts.

7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Right. I mean, she likely isn't even allowed to use the internet without supervision. 

And people keep talking about her "getting pregnant" with him, but I for one am not assuming their conceptions were all consensual. 

I think the married adult women often control the internet at home, which would explain why he'd use the work computers instead.  I'd argue that in a culture where saying no to your husband isn't an option that there is no real consent.

 

6 hours ago, Katy said:

I’m not convinced Anna is trapped by anything but her own mind.  No judge is going to take the Duggar side now. She can call TLC and negotiate her own episode. She could call almost any book agent in New York and get a million dollar advance in probably less than a month. She could call her brother and get enough cash to get to Texas and then figure it out. She could start her own YouTube show & call it “Escaping ATI” or anything else she wants. She could find a therapist who’d agree to be recorded while deprogramming her. Her entire life she’s heard stories of people in prison who had to start their lives over again. 

I’m not convinced she’ll ever do it. I really hope whatever prison he goes to doesn’t allow conjugal visits. 

I'm not sure Anna has options like normal people do.  She has no real education.  She doesn't really charm the cameras.  Any family that was willing to take her in years ago might not be in the position to help 8 people.  She married into fundie royalty.  If she stays put on the Dugger compound she has a roof over her head, food to eat, and a community.  It might be her only shot for a single mother of 7 with her skill set to not live in complete poverty.

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Well, my family has had LLCs in our names, but $0 attached to them. 

My prediction is that they'll need an entity to accept the go fund me money.  That's bound to be the next grift

5 hours ago, freesia said:

Yes, I agree with supervising. And maybe the "camp" needs investigating, too.

One of the Dugger sons-in-law comes from a family that owns a fundamentalist camp that is known for hosting events where the Pearls are the headliners, but I don't know if their camp hosts the re-education programs or not.

5 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Right?! I was an extreme rebel back in the day because I always thought the Duggars weren't nearly as righteous as they wanted everyone to believe.   They used their children for financial gain and forced them to grow up in the public eye.  I always thought they painted a picture of their lifestyle that didn't likely reflect reality.  

 

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Oh, but Hollywood said it was "sooo romantic" when she married the "love of her life" (he was her student starting when he was EIGHT! She had a son the same age.)  they even made a movie about it!

I detest the deviancy of hollywood.  you  hear what those in the business say - they think this is normal.

eta: I became aware of this case during the court hearings during her first pregnancy with vili.  I got the impression if vili had been Caucasian - she would have tried to pass the kid off as her husband's.

her husband took their *four* kids to another state.

I remember the movie and the news coverage but I don't remember anyone remotely romanticizing it.  I thought it was covered so much because it was unusually icky. 

4 hours ago, Annie G said:

After the raids in 2019, Free Jinger posted screenshots of property records showing transfer out of Josh’s name and into Anna’s. Jim Bob’s mother held property in her name only for years while she was married, and Michelle has owned property in the past. 
I’m not saying that Anna had any real control over those assets, but things were put in her name.  Owning property in name only isn’t much of a step away from patriarchy though.

I don't think Jim Bob and Michelle grew up in the cult.  They just chose to join it, promote it, and raise their kids in it.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

Selling her story (unless she does it through a YouTube channel, which is unlikely) would be a one-time opportunity to get enough money to permanently leave the Duggars.  It wouldn’t need to exploit anything but her own experience. Her children could remain private figures. She could tell her side sympathetically, do one exclusive interview, collect the royalties, and ask for privacy so she and her children could have time to heal, buy a trailer to put in her parents yard in Florida, and go to a community college to get enough education to get a decent job. She has nice teeth now, maybe she could be a dental hygienist. 

There is a sense of poetic justice in it.  The Duggars have used the media to get fortune and fame to control their family members, Josh used it to get a job with a Focus on the Family and political clout for a while, and Anna using fortune and fame to bring it all crashing down, break free, and fund a fresh start seems fitting in a way.  Fortune and fame are inherently problematic though, so some serious savvy would be required to avoid any pitfalls. Granted Anna's motivations would be good if she did it, so there's more hope for her.

[HeartString]

11 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

don't think some of those nefarious sites are so easy to stumble upon.  The feds aren't going to build a case upon a needle in a haystack that could have been accidentally shuffled in.  I think in real life, you have to put some serious effort into getting into these virtual places.

That was really more of an aside, someone asked if he could have done this by accident.  Its possible for a good hacker to put images directly on your hard drive  without you doing anything more than clicking a link in an email, just  like a virus or through a virus, I have no idea. Just like hackers can get in and get your emails and documents, they can leave documents on it too.  Its just an interesting tidbit.   I doubt very much that has anything to do with Josh Duggar though.  His own previous behavior makes this just part of his pattern.  

[MercyA]

@Faith-manor, I'm sorry! I am horrible about keeping my inbox cleaned out. I always want to save everything. 😊 I think there should be space now, thank you! I would definitely appreciate hearing from you at your convenience. 

[TechWife]

This is an informative thread - 

 

[Faith-manor]

34 minutes ago, MercyA said:

@Faith-manor, I'm sorry! I am horrible about keeping my inbox cleaned out. I always want to save everything. 😊 I think there should be space now, thank you! I would definitely appreciate hearing from you at your convenience. 

Mercy, I tried again. Same message. I am kind of emotional worn out now after typing it all out twice so it might be a few days before I try again.

[MercyA]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Mercy, I tried again. Same message. I am kind of emotional worn out now after typing it all out twice so it might be a few days before I try again.

Oh my goodness, I am so sorry. I feel terrible. I am positive there is room now, and if anyone else sends me a message between now and whenever you write, I will check to make sure there is still enough room and my box stays open. 

There is no hurry at all, but I think sometimes if you go back to the page on which you were writing the message, it will still be there and you can copy and paste it into a new message. If not, no worries, just trying to save you more trouble.

I wish I could magically send you some chocolate or something. 😞 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

Oh my goodness, I am so sorry. I feel terrible. I am positive there is room now, and if anyone else sends me a message between now and whenever you write, I will check to make sure there is still enough room and my box stays open. 

There is no hurry at all, but I think sometimes if you go back to the page on which you were writing the message, it will still be there and you can copy and paste it into a new message. If not, no worries, just trying to save you more trouble.

I wish I could magically send you some chocolate or something. 😞 

You are kind. My husband brought me a piece of chocolate. He knows that when the charges became public, I lost it for a bit. It is exactly what I expected, but yet hoped I was wrong.

I see pictures of those dear children's faces on media, and just want to rip Josh, Jim bob, and Michelle's faces off. I have zero sympathy for Anna. I did after Ashley Madison. But her brother offered her a way out, and the finances to do it, and she stayed. Now this. At some point, we have to stop coddling the enablers. 

I still suffer guilt that I did not protect my little sister enough, and my family's exposure was less than a year prior to the school, my semester at the school, and some residual crap afterward. But the damage was done. I will not, out of respect for myself sister, detail her sufferings here. 

[ktgrok]

Yeah...I can see Anna as a victim, and still think that doesn't mean she gets the right to continue the cycle of abuse. 

[mommyoffive]

Josh Duggar: What to Know About the Former 19 Kids and Counting Star | PEOPLE.com

This was a good history of things. 

[Shahrazad]

3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

...I guess for me it is disheartening to see everyone immediately jump to Anna's rights and not give a crap about the children's rights. I have been sitting here crying, hands shaking, knowing what is ahead for her. I feel sick to my stomach. I have been on the receiving end of their evil. And I was only subjected to it for a school semester. 

I won't come back here again to try to convince you of how evil those sons of b$itches are. I tried to warn people years ago, and it was not well received. I posted pages of screen shots of IBLP materials and their "newsletters" to no good end. But let me describe what ATI/IBLP says must be done when a paedophile is found their midst. The victims must be found and must, on pain of physical beating, food and water withheld, sleep deprivation, beg forgiveness of the predator for being a temptation if they are children of the cult. You read that correctly. They have to beg for forgiveness of the predator for leading the predator to sin. Now let me tell you about what is going to likely happen to little McKenzie. Even if daddy did not molest her, because he was sexually attracted to children that means according to their beliefs he had a temptation, that means some child is at fault for his feelings. They will say it was sin for him to act out on his feelings, but that it is a child or children's fault that he was "lead to sin". Who the hell do you think ATI is going to blame for a child of their poster family going so damn far off the rails? Definitely his kids. Who do you think is going to be on the worst end of that effing stick? McKenzie.

Yes, the Northwoods Conference Center in Watersmeet, MI has been turned in, numerous times with complaints from people in town, concerns from local citizens. This has been going on for decades. We have not had a single LEO, single agency willing to take on an organization with more than 150 million in assets and some bastard quality lawyers to fight their battles nor to be seen " persecuting" a religious group. The only successful action taken was by the city of Flint, MI and Genessee County who kept Bill Gothard from starting another youth retraining center there in the early 90's. Zoning. He was stupid enough to sink money into a property without finding out if it could be zoned for a youth detention center and religious camp. I was relieved beyond words when his project could not go forward.

Nome of this isn't news. It has been around for multiple deacdes and is common knowledge among social workers and LEO's. The state is unwilling to be made out as the bad guys picking on those poor little Christians. The cycle just keeps repeating itself. And the victims keep piling up. But seriously, when has this country ever truly given a damn about the victims of stuff like this? It is why I 100% support a Bill of Rights for children. Kids are not property, they are people too.

As for her custody rights, by state law, yes she has custody of those kids. Does this mean one fig to JBob and company? No it does not. Does she believe she has the right to make decisions for her children? Likely not because she didn't just marry into it, she was raised in it. The "Umbrella of Authority" as is taught in ATI, is that females have no agency of their own. God made them weaker vessels and man to be in charge of them, and at no time is a female to be outside ATI male control or make decisions. So female children are subordinate to their fathers until marriage when this responsibility is handed to their husband, or if they do not marry, always. If father dies, then there two ways this goes. First, it falls to a brother of age who becomes responsible for his mother and minor siblings. If there is no adult male brother, it can go to a grandfather or an uncle, even a cousin. At no time can it go to a male outside ATI. In the case of a widowed woman or one in jail or otherwise absent, it goes to the father in law if alive AND there are children because kids are the property of the male line. Thus, while she may retain physical custody of them, Jbob has literal custody, and Anna cannot defy his choices for the children unless she is willing to leave the cult. Micromanaging female life is the norm. Men are supposed to approve their females' hair styles, clothing, make up colors, choice of musical instruments if allowed instruction, books and other reading material, daily schedules, friends and acquaintances, choose his daughters' spouses, limit their education, and even control how much they eat and when, right down to not allowing tampons because girls who use tampons are not virgins anymore. Yes this is the crap they believe along with the presence of cabbage patch dolls cause women to have childbirth problems among other ATI maternity care dangerous notions.

So I stand by my opinion. If Anna does not leave that cult very soon, she does not deserve to have custody of her children and the state should step in. Chances are they will do exactly not one damn thing about it because Jbob is best buds with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee. So sometime in the coming weeks I want all of you that think "poor poor Anna" to think for a minute about the little girl being told that her daddy is going to jail because she tempted him to think about children sexually and the fact that this cult forces women and children to beg forgiveness and does so with many of the same methods the Pearls use to torture children into compliance.

And don't think these p.o.s's aren't capable of doing that to a grandchild. Michele is the evil slime bag who blanket trained her babies to be afraid to crawl by beating them on the backs of their legs with flexible rulers. Documented here years ago on the old board. Screenshots taken of her bragging about it in an online mommy forum and telling moms where to buy those flexible rulers on sale. If she is gleeful to do that to a baby, it staggers the imagination what she and that monster she is married to will do to an older child, and Anna as ZERO say in it unless she is willing to leave. The danger to those children is so very real.

As a survivor of this damn cult, I am telling you not to be so naive about what is going to happen to Josh's kids.

I agree, strongly with what you wrote here.

Additionally, in terms of the massive amount of sympathy directed toward Anna in this thread, as someone who escaped out of a similar religious setting myself, I can't fully get down with that. I think the line of one's victimhood begins to diminish as one crosses into the territory of perpetrator/facilitator. If we were having this conversation back in 2015, I would absolutely have a lot more sympathy for her. However, IMO, there are multiple factors in this particular situation that make it stand out from other abuse situations where the victimhood of the mother somewhat absolves some of the blame for not extracting her children from the situation:

- Anna already knew she was married to a pedophile because, 6 years ago, we all were alerted to that fact. He sexually assaulted his pre-pubescent sisters and paid no consequences and received no meaningful intervention or therapy and then returned to the house to live with said victims and to pretend nothing happened. Its fine if she was cool with praying on and forgiving him for being a slimy, hypocritical, cheating, d-bag with the Ashley Madison/solicitation of sex workers stuff (although it probably should have been a concern with regards to the violence aspect of that) but once she found out that he had assaulted his sisters (who were *also* under 12 -- between 7 and 12 if IIRC -- clearly he has a predilection for young girls and that is not something that tends to just go away) and then CHOSE to remain with him and keep her daughters in the house with a pedophile who they'd trust and who would also have complete access to them, she knowingly and willingly put them at a pretty grave and imminent risk. If Josh did anything to them in those interim years, IMO she absolutely carries responsibility for that and deserves to be dealing with CPS intervention, the way many people would if they knowingly put their children in the care of a sexual predator after being repeatedly alerted to the fact that said person was a sexual predator. And it isn't as though she was in denial because Josh and his sisters admitted the sexual assault situation publicly so there was no question that he had done it, the only question was related to whether the consequences for it were appropriate. She wasn't just "having trouble believing he would to that," she KNEW he did that to his sisters and still thought it was okay to return her daughters into his care.

- Anna has far more resources than most of us coming from extreme religious backgrounds who are locked into abusive marriages. She is part of a major TV show franchise, is often around people who do not subscribe to her insular religious beliefs (most of the casts of these reality shows talk about how much time they spend with the producers and camerapeople and how close they usually get). Her brother offered her an out. There was talk of her family being upset about the Josh-sister news coming out. She has a huge social media following and if she left would have options for her own show, interviews with major talk shows....etc. She is literally a phone call away from freedom.

- Additionally, the more exposure you get to "outsiders" when you're in this kind of community, the greater the effect on your isolation. For example, even when I first joined this forum many years ago, the things I learned and the online friendships I formed with some of the members here began to influence me and the way I saw the world because I was no longer in an echo chamber. I actually think a lot of my own personal change took place as a result to exposure that began here. I had a very polished way I presented myself to the outside to portray a good view of my orthodox version of faith and yet just hearing other perspectives often broke through in a way I would never have acknowledged at the time. I don't think she is as sheltered and restricted as we think or that she cannot fathom any other view but the one she has been brainwashed to believe. She may continue to hold the drilled in view, as I did at the time, but that doesn't mean the exposure doesn't offer other perspectives and give her the chance to see that there are other options.

- Its a kind thought that every person who is a victim of abuse is a sympathetic figure in how they interact with those they have power over but it is often not the case. I have seen quite often with others who were in the same situation as myself and who remained in those situations that one often forms a coping mechanism in which they tend to either become very manipulative or to throw others under the bus in the name of self preservation. An example of this I repeatedly witnessed in my old community would come in the form of an abusive husband causing significant harm to the child or making a decision that could have a huge, life-altering consequence for the child and the mother opting not to do anything to protect said child because they "didn't want to hear it/didn't want to deal with his anger/couldn't do anything". Because these people had become so accustomed to trying to avoid confrontation with their abuser, the idea of entering one even for the sake of the protection of their children was more off-putting than their child being harmed severely OR perhaps them losing their child altogether. Does that make them less of a victim? No. But does it make them less sympathetic when they can exert a reasonable effort to try and protect the child who they are responsible for protecting and caring for and choose not to to avoid even the possibility of an argument? Absolutely IMO.

- Anna may be a member of a cult but she is still in the USA. She may recognize her in-laws power over her and headship but the law is not going to prioritize placing grandkids with the Duggar parents or children with their admitted-pedo criminal father over their mother. I can definitely understand the perspective of her as primarily trapped by her own mind. There are many women, women I have known personally, who have had to fight to protect their kids from similar situations in places where the general law and general public opinion is not on their side, where they very much could lose their kids if they divorced, and where they could even face penalties and prosecution for leaving or trying to obstruct their husband. Anna has a lot of privilege that comes with being in a country where the views the Duggars hold are an outlier and, as a result, she has a lot of practical advantages if she wants to, for example, not return her children to living in a house with a pedophile predator father and stop bringing more children into an already awful situation.

For reference, I am not and have never been a member of the Duggar's particular brand of religion BUT I was raised to be a very conservative Muslim in a very conservative/traditional cultural household. I was arranged married at 16 to a man I barely knew. I had a GED I got after spotty homeschooling, no degree, no work experience ever. I had never done even practical thinks regarding money management or basic tasks of living, my husband did everything, handled all the money...etc. I was perhaps even worse off than Anna in many ways. I absolutely bought in to many of the same views the Duggars hold regarding marriage and subservience and women, I was so completely brainwashed that I couldn't even consider leaving an abusive marriage because I was petrified of the idea of being disowned by my father and family who would never forgive me if I left. In the end, I left because, even if I felt all those ways, even if I was sure I was going to hell and doing all the wrong things and I would lose everything and everyone, I couldn't stomach my children growing up seeing that abuse and thinking that was normal or healthy or okay. And my husband wouldn't have ever hurt them, he adored them, he directed all his anger toward me. There is absolutely zero question in my mind that had there been a situation where my children were at risk regarding their physical safety or if I'd learned he was a pedophile, I would have been out even sooner, the moment that information came to light because, for many of us, we instinctually draw the line at our children's physical well-being/major safety. I didn't have TLC to call and I didn't have a brother who publicly said he'd have my back and I, too, didn't have work experience or anything to fall back on. I didn't even have friends as I'd been quite isolated and everyone was gone once they realized I was leaving my husband anyway. In fact, one of the biggest helps that happened once I shared my departure was that a group of amazing women from this site who I kept in touch with on social media pooled together and surprised me by sending me an incredibly generous amount of money that allowed me to secure a place of my own while I waited to receive my first paycheck from my first ever job (and one who lived near me even offered to watch my children while I interviewed for that job as well -- just freaking amazing). It took many years of therapy for me to get to a healthier place spiritually and emotionally and I'm still working on it (especially spiritually). But even those of us who are victims are not so weak that we deserve a pass for consciously choosing to put our children in the clutches of a predator. Even now, she has given the impression she will be supporting him.

As a side note, am I remembering right that last time, in 2015, when the pedophilia/sister assault stuff came out, she also announced her pregnancy right before it? Just made me side eye things a little because today when I tried to do a search, only about 40% of the articles were on the arrest vs 60% about her pregnancy announcement she made a few days ago. Makes me wonder whether they have a heads up about when this stuff is about to hit the fan and she is "helping" try to bury it by announcing her pregnancies around the same time the news will hit.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Shahrazad