Josh Duggar was arrested today

[MercyA]

2 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

If she allows him to have access to them while he is out on bail I will be 100% in agreement with you.  She loses all benefit of the doubt once she gives them access after what was revealed today because I can believe he hid it from her even after  the raid and he knew what they found.

Do you think, though, if she wasn't at the hearing today and she doesn't go looking for this info, that someone in her family or community will TELL her what he was looking at? 

I'm worried she's going to be thinking it was "just porn" or older looking children that he looked at accidentally or something. 😞

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Let’s just hope that the seriousness of the children having to be questioned opens up her eyes a bit to the situation. 

Is this confirmed? I hope so!

[pinball]

9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Except, supposedly law enforcement checked and he was the only one working at the times the material was accessed/downloaded. They have the exact times and dates. 

He was just trying to throw someone else, anyone else, under the bus. 

I didn’t see that specific information 

i hope that is correct and there isn’t a chance he could have been sharing with another adult or god forbid, showing it to a child.

or even another adult knowing josh’s super easy passwords.

to be clear...I believe Josh did what he is accused of doing. I’m just not convinced he was the only one who saw it.

[hjffkj]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

Do you think, though, if she wasn't at the hearing today and she doesn't go looking for this info, that someone in her family or community will TELL her what he was looking at? 

I'm worried she's going to be thinking it was "just porn" or older looking children that he looked at accidentally or something. 😞

That is on her to keep her head in the sand. I would hope someone would tell her even if she didn't want to listen but if not she still doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me.  She owes it to her children to know what their father has done and to protect them from him. And if she can't do that, she shouldn't have those kids.  

 

[MercyA]

20 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

That is on her to keep her head in the sand. I would hope someone would tell her even if she didn't want to listen but if not she still doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me.  She owes it to her children to know what their father has done and to protect them from him. And if she can't do that, she shouldn't have those kids.  

I agree. 

Hoping one of his sane siblings or someone from her FOO will MAKE her listen.

Edited May 6, 2021 by MercyA

[AbcdeDooDah]

13 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Let’s just hope that the seriousness of the children having to be questioned opens up her eyes a bit to the situation. 
 

I wonder how long until he violates parole.  He seems to think he is above the rest of the world so it is a strong likely he will.

I'm hoping, but nothing involving hurting others.

[Annie G]

There’s a subreddit that was by a person who was on the zoom call during the hearing. Well written summaries of the two witnesses for the prosecution, and the two defense witnesses, who are the folks Josh will be living with. And the closing arguments and judge’s decision. After reading those I am sick. Anna has a responsibility to know what’s going on-what the charges are, what’s been said in court, etc. 

‘Anna being the one to supervise visits the kids and Josh have is insane.  How can she let her children see him, knowing his sexual attraction to young children. 
 

The family he’s staying with also just boggles my mind. Clearly the wife doesn’t really want to do it but her husband has made the decision and thus she supports him. Their daughter teaches piano lessons from their home but will hold them elsewhere while Josh is living with them.  I just don’t understand the hold that Jim Bob and this cult has over people. It’s just mind boggling. 

[MercyA]

14 minutes ago, Annie G said:

There’s a subreddit that was by a person who was on the zoom call during the hearing.

Link here. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

By the way—for all the people who are dealing with some level of retraumatization from this, whether from abuse or growing up/being involved this cult or similar—I see you and your pain is valid.  

[Katy]

41 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

If she allows him to have access to them while he is out on bail I will be 100% in agreement with you.  She loses all benefit of the doubt once she gives him access after what was revealed today because I can believe he hid it from her even after  the raid and he knew what they found.

Of course she will.  He legally has a right to see them, they're his children and he has a constitutional right because children are property of their parents in the eyes of the US constitution.  It's a problem that we're the only country IN THE WORLD that didn't ratify the the UN convention for children's rights.  Children don't have a right to be free from abuse here.

https://www.humanium.org/en/united-states-of-america/

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

They believe in someone being reprobate. However, that is for people outside of ATI, and beyond rare for a male to be declared that. In Gothard world,the only truly reprobate thing is to not believe in Bill.Got hard, and his minions take that to heart. They really do not worship god; they worship Bill and his weirdo beliefs. So for Josh, so long as he keeps up his sad face, and says he is sorry, and the devil made me do it, and that wife you gave me made me do it, and even worse and very likely "I saw McKenzie when she was wrapped in a towel, and she tempted me", then all is forgiven. He cannot fall from the pedestal. And according to the " wisdom booklets"and Advanced Institute, for him to be into child porn, children had to have tempted him, been immodest around him. That is the theology of the religion. So that means his own kids or his nieces and nephews depending on how they choose to land the blame, will be counseled about their role in daddy uncle's mistakes, and why they caused him to sin.

JimBob has the umbrella of authority over Anna now, and so the responsibility is his to mete out the "counseling" and consequences. Consequences are spelled out in the wisdom.booklets and conferences, Pearl like and worse. I weep for the children tonight.

 

Can you walk us through the form counseling and consequences can take? Will he send them to one of those weird re-education camps? Surely the kids are too young for any of this. I do not understand this at all.  Couldn't her family just come and remove her from the property to keep her and the kids safe from JimBob's retribution? 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

Can you walk us through the form counseling and consequences can take? Will he send them to one of those weird re-education camps? Surely the kids are too young for any of this. I do not understand this at all.  Couldn't her family just come and remove her from the property to keep her and the kids safe from JimBob's retribution? 

Anna’s family met the Duggar’s at Big Sandy, the Gothardite conference.  So I think it’s safe to assume that they’re as wrapped up as the Duggar’s.

[hjffkj]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

Of course she will.  He legally has a right to see them, they're his children and he has a constitutional right because children are property of their parents in the eyes of the US constitution.  It's a problem that we're the only country IN THE WORLD that didn't ratify the the UN convention for children's rights.  Children don't have a right to be free from abuse here.

https://www.humanium.org/en/united-states-of-america/

She is not legally required to supervise their visitation with him.  According to the terms of his bail he can only see them if she supervises.  So, if she won't supervise them he can't see them.  I will give her the benefit of the doubt up until the point where she willingly (not court appointed) take her children to visit him.  

I pray she will keep them away and refuse to supervise visitation.  But I won't hold my breath for that.

[hjffkj]

4 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Anna’s family met the Duggar’s at Big Sandy, the Gothardite conference.  So I think it’s safe to assume that they’re as wrapped up as the Duggar’s.

At least some of her family is not longer wrapped in it.  And I hope after this the rest of her family at least steps back enough to see the danger her daughter and her children are in and help do something about it. But again, I won't hold my breath

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

What is being reported in the media is just the tip of the iceberg. According to police testimony, as detailed in that thread, he specifically searched snip snip snippty snip. He is one seriously sick son of a bitch. 

and the good news is, - he will likely never get out of prison.   well, I can hope.

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

And Anna is the "supervisor" for visitation with the children.

 

The Rebers (sp?) were asked by JimScum to house the p.o.s. and they admitted they are not tech savvy, have guns in the house, and give piano lessons to children but guessed they could stop the lessons and relocate the guns. The wife said she had been unaware of how serious the charges were, and that her husband made the decision to take p.o.s. in, and she would respect it. I.E. ATI speak for "submit".

 

I hope this wakes up a lot of the women in this cult.

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Some of the testimony today stated that Josh said other family members had access to the devices

 

he's trying to implicate other family members who weren't part of this, and still jb and m will defend him.  

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Except, supposedly law enforcement checked and he was the only one working at the times the material was accessed/downloaded. They have the exact times and dates. 

He was just trying to throw someone else, anyone else, under the bus. 

I have zero sympathy for jb and m, they would have gladly blamed a non-family member if they could have.

58 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

So, the computers had "Covenant Eyes" softwared, that was supposed to alert Anna if he accessed anything shady. But, he partitioned the hard drive, and so was able to access the ugly stuff using the other, unmonitored part of the computer. 

I'm wondering....if all year he's been telling Anna, "You know I didn't do this, you would have gotten an alert", and that is why she stayed? Not realizing he was able to evade it. 

I'm sure he has, and still is.  Women in this cult aren't exactly educated.  

 they are told it's their fault if their husband "strays".  She's not meeting his needs.

 

44 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I agree. 

Hoping one of his sane siblings or someone from her FOO will MAKE her listen.

you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

her brother got out of this, and tried to get her out a couple years back when the ashley madison thing happened.  hopefully this time she'll take him up on the offer.

at least josh should be going away for a very long time.

37 minutes ago, Annie G said:

There’s a subreddit that was by a person who was on the zoom call during the hearing. Well written summaries of the two witnesses for the prosecution, and the two defense witnesses, who are the folks Josh will be living with. And the closing arguments and judge’s decision. After reading those I am sick. Anna has a responsibility to know what’s going on-what the charges are, what’s been said in court, etc. 

 --------I wonder if this was the first time the husband really heard what the actual charges are.  will he change his mind?  what will happen if he does?   can jb threaten/intimidate him to do it?

‘Anna being the one to supervise visits the kids and Josh have is insane.  How can she let her children see him, knowing his sexual attraction to young children. 
 

JB holds the purse strings, and she doesn't strike me as the type to say no.

  I just don’t understand the hold that Jim Bob and this cult has over people. It’s just mind boggling. 

$$$$$$$$$$

6 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Anna’s family met the Duggar’s at Big Sandy, the Gothardite conference.  So I think it’s safe to assume that they’re as wrapped up as the Duggar’s.

A brother left, I believe another sibling also left.   The parents will hopefully wake up and help their daughter and protect their grandchildren. 

2 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

She is not legally required to supervise their visitation with him.  According to the terms of his bail he can only see them if she supervises.  So, if she won't supervise them he can't see them.  I will give her the benefit of the doubt up until the point where she willingly (not court appointed) take her children to visit him.  

I pray she will keep them away and refuse to supervise visitation.  But I won't hold my breath for that.

I don't see her refusing.  If she tried, you know jb would cut her off.  she lives in a building on his land.  she's entirely at his mercy.

[Ottakee]

This is all so sad.

I hope she refused to supervise visits.

Him saying others had access to the computers is a way to say "hey, this wasn't me (or just me) ....someone else put this on the computer." Type thing

And absolutely he could hide what he was doing from her.   In my case, the stuff was so far hidden in files and subfolders, etc that a computer expert came to testify of how it got there, the clicks required to get it there and access it, etc.

[Rosie_0801]

47 minutes ago, Katy said:

Of course she will.  He legally has a right to see them, they're his children and he has a constitutional right because children are property of their parents in the eyes of the US constitution.  It's a problem that we're the only country IN THE WORLD that didn't ratify the the UN convention for children's rights.  Children don't have a right to be free from abuse here.

https://www.humanium.org/en/united-states-of-america/

Those of us elsewhere in the world will tell you there's more to solving these problems than ratifying the UN Rights of the Child. There's not much of a difference between having the legal right to abuse your child and a child having the right to access their abusive parent. Either way, the child has no power to avoid their abuser.

[Katy]

53 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

She is not legally required to supervise their visitation with him.  According to the terms of his bail he can only see them if she supervises.  So, if she won't supervise them he can't see them.  I will give her the benefit of the doubt up until the point where she willingly (not court appointed) take her children to visit him.  

I pray she will keep them away and refuse to supervise visitation.  But I won't hold my breath for that.

She probably already agreed or the court wouldn't have said Anna could supervise. 

[Melissa in Australia]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Those of us elsewhere in the world will tell you there's more to solving these problems than ratifying the UN Rights of the Child. There's not much of a difference between having the legal right to abuse your child and a child having the right to access their abusive parent. Either way, the child has no power to avoid their abuser.

Sadly so true.

parental rights are so strongly forced here that foster children cannot say they don’t want to see bio parents until they are at least 13.  I know of a child that had been s - abused by bio father. He had the right to contact visits. It took 3 “child protection”workers to drag her out from under her bed and force her to attend the contact visits. 

    Here jail sentences for sex crimes against children are ridiculously low. 2 years if you are lucky. Even murdering someone is less than 20 years 

 

[Faith-manor]

The court can force a mother to produce the children for supervised visitation, but they generally cannot force the mother to be the supervisor. Anna had to apply for or agree to it. So you can be pretty certain she will provide access to the children, otherwise she would have no reason to agree to be the supervisor. It would also be heavily encouraged in ATI in order to limit the children's contact with a third party that they might talk to or be questioned by. Control the narrative is the name of the cult game, and to say that children are the property of the father in all circumstances is to put it mildly. If p.o.s. called from prison and said, "I don't like the way M looked at me when we visited, you better beat the devil out of her", Anna goes home and beats the sh $t out of that kid, or faces the consequences if he finds out she didn't and complains to the elders or JB. And JB, prior to getting famous, described the ideal beatings at ATI conferences. He was a big fan of beat them young, back of the legs and naked so there was no " padding" and if you didn't leave welts, you had not broken their will. One of the keys in the beatings was that the child stopped struggling, and even better if they went limp and stopped crying. These were described in detail at conferences. Both psycho Dougs of fundie nutter fame as well as Sproul Jr. were into wife spankings and highly recommended them for disciplining wayward wives. Years ago someone on the old, old board, posted a screen shot of Michelle saying online that she agreed wives who don't submit should be punished in this way.

Look folks. There is no redeeming character in these people. Why anyone thinks she should be given a chance of sprouting a brain cell when the safety of these children is on the line is truly well beyond me to understand!

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

She probably already agreed or the court wouldn't have said Anna could supervise. 

If it were me and I thought he would be given permission to see the children regardless, I would want to be the one to supervise. I would not trust anyone else. Hopefully that is what is going on here. Maybe she thought if she refused someone else would be appointed? IDK.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

If it were me and I thought he would be given permission to see the children regardless, I would want to be the one to supervise. I would not trust anyone else. Hopefully that is what is going on here. Maybe she thought if she refused someone else would be appointed? IDK.

I hope you're right.  But I suspect she's simply the type to choose her husband over her children.

[LucyStoner]

This is a situation where two things are true at once.  Anna is a mother who should protect her kids.  Anna is also a young woman, without anything that resembles a complete education, who was born into an abusive cult where she has undoubtedly been abused herself in a myriad of ways.  Marriage following the ATI model is inherently abusive- spiritually, mentally, financially and emotionally for sure and quite likely physically and sexually as well.  

From the outside looking in, it's easy for people who are not in a cult situation or a domestic violence situation to say what Anna and other women need to do, should do etc.  I have certainly been the person on the outside of that looking in and saying "WTAF, why are you doing this?" with regards to the mothers who I see not adequately protecting their children in the wake of DV.  So I understand the inclination.  But it's still just not that simple and the systems we have in place for child protective services are inadequate at best.  

Unfortunately, motherhood isn't a magic healing salve for the trauma, cult programming and other bullshit that Anna has undoubtedly endured. 

A woman who left ATI in 2015 posted this on Facebook re: Anna and I think it's really worth a read.  Asking Anna to just up and leave is futile.  I hope, pray, wish and will that she finds a way out. But she can't be rescued and she can't be forced.  She also shouldn't face shame and judgement for things that are very much not in her power to control.  

https://www.facebook.com/ThrivingForwardBlog/posts/157275853065658

[Katy]

Emily D Baker is doing a live stream and just said the court has wanted the children to be forensicly examined, but in order for that to happen the mother has to cooperate. 

[gardenmom5]

55 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

This is a situation where two things are true at once.  Anna is a mother who should protect her kids.  Anna is also a young woman, without anything that resembles a complete education, who was born into an abusive cult where she has undoubtedly been abused herself in a myriad of ways.  Marriage following the ATI model is inherently abusive- spiritually, mentally, financially and emotionally for sure and quite likely physically and sexually as well.  

From the outside looking in, it's easy for people who are not in a cult situation or a domestic violence situation to say what Anna and other women need to do, should do etc.  I have certainly been the person on the outside of that looking in and saying "WTAF, why are you doing this?" with regards to the mothers who I see not adequately protecting their children in the wake of DV.  So I understand the inclination.  But it's still just not that simple and the systems we have in place for child protective services are inadequate at best.  

Unfortunately, motherhood isn't a magic healing salve for the trauma, cult programming and other bullshit that Anna has undoubtedly endured. 

A woman who left ATI in 2015 posted this on Facebook re: Anna and I think it's really worth a read.  Asking Anna to just up and leave is futile.  I hope, pray, wish and will that she finds a way out. But she can't be rescued and she can't be forced.  She also shouldn't face shame and judgement for things that are very much not in her power to control.  

https://www.facebook.com/ThrivingForwardBlog/posts/157275853065658

Did josh himself actually tell his parents he was doing that to his sisters?  

because if he is the one who brought it up - he was reaching out for help, and they didn't help him.  It makes them 1000xs worse!

Makes me want to punch them.

eta: how does the "not allowed to use natural family planning" jive with M putting her menstrual cycle chart on the fridge so her kids could remind her to have s3x to get pregnant. . . . . (gag me with a spork. - and I thought it was awkward when adult 1dd found my pregnancy test in my bedroom when she was looking for something. . .  )

Edited May 6, 2021 by gardenmom5

[LucyStoner]

8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Did josh himself actually tell his parents he was doing that to his sisters?  

because if he is the one who brought it up - he was reaching out for help, and they didn't help him.  It makes them 1000xs worse!

Makes me want to punch them.

I've heard this a few different places but I don't know that it is true.  It does sound like something some younger teens would do.  

I hate the way his family describes Josh as having a "porn addiction", like he took too many Vicodin after a surgery and became chemically dependent on it.  Not the same thing.  Also, in their circle, a teen boy who is titillated by a copy of Swimsuit Illustrated is tantamount to Josh Duggar with a partitioned hard drive containing images of child rape- they tend to call it all "porn addiction".  This pathologizes a very typical, normal curiosity and also serves to sanitize/minimize very abhorrent and dangerous actions.  It lets people like Josh rationalize their actions because it's "every man's struggle".  

How awful it must be to be either a boy or a girl growing up in this nonsense.  

Edited May 6, 2021 by LucyStoner

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I've heard this a few different places but I don't know that it is true.  It does sound like something some younger teens would do.  

I hate the way his family describes Josh as having a "porn addiction", like he took too many Vicodin after a surgery and became chemically dependent on it.  Not the same thing.  Also, in their circle, a teen boy who is titillated by a copy of Swimsuit Illustrated is tantamount to Josh Duggar with a partitioned hard drive containing images of child rape- they tend to call it all "porn addiction".  This pathologizes very a typical, normal curiosity and also serves to sanitize/minimize very abhorrent and dangerous actions.  It let's people like Josh rationalize their actions because it's "every man's struggle". 

How awful it must be to be either a boy or a girl growing up in this nonsense.  

The writer, who came from this, was also saying saying someone was "inappropriate with you" was taboo.  So if the girls complained they'd be censured.

just disgusting.  I understand there are perverts like gothard, - but people have chosen to willingly follow him and raise their children to follow him.  though jb does give a creepy vibe too.  

[katilac]

46 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Did josh himself actually tell his parents he was doing that to his sisters?  

That's what he and his parents said, but who knows if it's true? 

[LucyStoner]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

The writer, who came from this, was also saying saying someone was "inappropriate with you" was taboo.  So if the girls complained they'd be censured.

just disgusting.  I understand there are perverts like gothard, - but people have chosen to willingly follow him and raise their children to follow him.  though jb does give a creepy vibe too.  

JB and Michelle weren't born into this.  They have said that they used birth control pills early in their marriage.  They got into it sometime after Josh was born and they clearly went whole hog on it.  

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

JB and Michelle weren't born into this.  They have said that they used birth control pills early in their marriage.  They got into it sometime after Josh was born and they clearly went whole hog on it.  

They chose this.  They have chosen to follow a guy that is a p#do, abuse their children  (because this is.) - of course, they've also chosen to pimp out their kids to TLC to make money.

 

[LucyStoner]

Just to be clear, Bill Gothard used to fill arenas with frequent sessions all over the country.  These ideas sound dangerous and culty but they weren't limited to a few dozen people drinking Koolaid in a bunker or even a few thousand.   

At the time that Gothard was finally outed as a creep, it was considerably smaller than it had been in the 1970s-early 1990s but they still had assets of ~100 million dollars.  The seminar that I went to was in Mercer Arena, a place that hosted concerts and large events - it wasn't full when I went in 1992 but it was at least as full as a They Might Be Giants concert I attended there a few years later.  Granted, like a lot of cultish crap, they didn't show their full crazy at the intro sections and most people filling those arenas didn't go even 1/4 as far as the Duggars.  Still, it would be a mistake to think that this was limited to a handful of fringe wackadoodles.  

Between the time that TLC aired their first special on the Duggars and sometime not long after the show started, many of the links to ATI stuff on their site were scrubbed.  Probably because TLC wanted to protect the Duggar brand they were profiting from.  

A few years ago, the lawsuits against Gothard and IBLP were dropped due to statute of limitation issues in some instances and the complexity of the case in others (read: the plaintiffs didn't have the funds to pursue every avenue). 

Edited May 6, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Resilient]

@LucyStonerSame story, different city.  My parents must have cottoned on that this was ... off. It is possible that Mother knew that Dad wasn't ever ever ever going to be the Strong Leader or whatever his assigned role was going to be in this rubric, so why waste one's time?  Dad was a wonderful dad--imperfect but a good dad. This would have poisoned him and our family by making us inauthentic as to who we were.  My parents sensed that, seems to me.  

[LucyStoner]

Also, this whole ATI/BLP Institute thing is run as a 501(c)(3) non-profit.  I poked through their tax returns to confirm the ~100 million figure back when Duggar was disgraced.  They have variable amounts of income from year to year and they tend to spend more than they take in as revenue in any given year, propping their spending up with dwindling assets from the looks of it.  Accounting for depreciation and their gradual liquidation of assets, they are down to a little shy of $60 million as of 2018 (most recently available year with a tax return, this isn't odd, they seem to file on paper and the IRS has been very slow to review and publish 2019 returns due to the Covid and they probably won't even need to file a 2020 990 until November (they are due in May but organizations are eligible for a 6 month extension each and every year).  Not very interesting but I noted a large number of mistakes and accounting issues on their forms but then I see they also claim to spend $0 on accounting services so this may be a situation where they are getting what they pay for.  

I have a real issue with this place benefiting from tax exempt status.  

[MercyA]

dp

Edited May 6, 2021 by MercyA

[MercyA]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Did josh himself actually tell his parents he was doing that to his sisters?  

because if he is the one who brought it up - he was reaching out for help, and they didn't help him.  It makes them 1000xs worse!

Makes me want to punch them.

 

7 hours ago, katilac said:

That's what he and his parents said, but who knows if it's true? 

His sisters confirmed this. Full transcript of interview here. 

DILLARD: We didn't even know about it until he went and confessed it to my parents and they shared it with us.

KELLY: Neither of you knew?

SEEWALD: None of the victims were aware of what happened until Joshua confessed.

[TechWife]

21 hours ago, hippymamato3 said:

Obviously this isn't true, but if parents do everything WRONG - there are going to be consequences. 

If parents do everything “right” it is no guarantee that their kids are going to make wise decisions and be decent people at any point in their lives. Parents cannot and do not control their children at any age. It is not our job to try to do so. It is our job to nurture. They are always making the choices. If parents don’t realize this, the teen years have a way of driving the lesson home. 

[hippymamato3]

25 minutes ago, TechWife said:

If parents do everything “right” it is no guarantee that their kids are going to make wise decisions and be decent people at any point in their lives. Parents cannot and do not control their children at any age. It is not our job to try to do so. It is our job to nurture. They are always making the choices. If parents don’t realize this, the teen years have a way of driving the lesson home. 

I think everyone knows this. But JB and Michelle are not absolved of guilt here. 

[TechWife]

5 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

I think everyone knows this. But JB and Michelle are not absolved of guilt here. 

Guilt for what they have done wrong, absolutely. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

 

His sisters confirmed this. Full transcript of interview here. 

DILLARD: We didn't even know about it until he went and confessed it to my parents and they shared it with us.

KELLY: Neither of you knew?

SEEWALD: None of the victims were aware of what happened until Joshua confessed.

I do not think they were speaking freely in that interview. 

[MercyA]

8 minutes ago, katilac said:

I do not think they were speaking freely in that interview. 

Perhaps not, but I don't think they would outright lie. They were both married adult women at the time of the interview.

Edited May 6, 2021 by MercyA

[hjffkj]

I thought Jill was the one who told her parents about what Josh was doing. But then it continued even after they knew.

[MercyA]

.

Edited May 6, 2021 by MercyA

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Not according to her statements in the interview. They also said locks were put on the bedroom doors, new rules were instituted, etc.

ETA: ATI is a cult, and I do not think they should have allowed Josh to continue to live in the home. But I do think it's important to make sure we have the facts straight, as much as we know them.

Josh should have recieved professional,  legitimate counseling- not ATI torture.  That's very much on jb and m.  They failed him, and every child with whom he would have contact.

They also failed their daughters. 

I was molested once, by a teen neighbor, when I was a young three. I should have received counseling as a child, but didn't.   It was also more than 50 years ago. A lot more is known today.

 

[gardenmom5]

If I recall correctly,  you had to go through jb and m's room to reach the girls room.

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Not according to her statements in the interview. They also said locks were put on the bedroom doors, new rules were instituted, etc.

ETA: ATI is a cult, and I do not think M and JB should have allowed Josh to continue to live in the home. But I do think it's important to make sure we have the facts straight, as much as we know them. They are awful enough.

She’s also the one, openly in therapy, whose husband has been the most critical and is currently the most distanced. I’m not sure any of that stuff is to be taken at face value. These folks lie/dissemble with practiced ease. The Dillards were still trying to make things work and negotiate their fair share of profits at the time of the interview.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[hjffkj]

15 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Not according to her statements in the interview. They also said locks were put on the bedroom doors, new rules were instituted, etc.

ETA: ATI is a cult, and I do not think M and JB should have allowed Josh to continue to live in the home. But I do think it's important to make sure we have the facts straight, as much as we know them. They are awful enough.

hmm, I will have to do some searching as to where I read it.  

Even so, I wouldn't trust that any of those girls were allowed to tell the truth about what happened.  

[Katy]

3 hours ago, hjffkj said:

I thought Jill was the one who told her parents about what Josh was doing. But then it continued even after they knew.

Joy told Jill (her mom) when Josh abused her.  Jill told their parents. That’s why Josh called jill the tattler at her wedding and rumor from someone claiming to be in their church said even the parents called Jill the tale-bearer. They resented being told. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Katy
Grammar

[Katy]

I think I learned that from the redacted police report.  The names were redacted but the ages weren’t. 

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

Joy told Jill (her mom) when Josh abused her.  Jill told their parents. That’s why Josh called jill the tattler at her wedding and rumor from someone claiming to be in their church said even the parents called Jill the tail-bearer. They resented being told. 

😡

'cause then they'd have to do something about it?

but these people follow teachings that I won't even repeat.  They're abhorrent.

 

 

[MercyA]

30 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

She’s also the one, openly in therapy, whose husband has been the most critical and is currently the most distanced. I’m not sure any of that stuff is to be taken at face value. These folks lie/dissemble with practiced ease. The Dillards were still trying to make things work and negotiate their fair share of profits at the time of the interview.

Other than Josh and--I wouldn't doubt--Gothard himself, who has lied? Dissembling does seem very likely given their teachings.

I know it looks like I am defending the Duggars. I *am not*. Following similar teaching (Babywise, for example) is one of the major regrets of my life. They are wrong, wrong, wrong in many ways. But this board has a standard for information and I see a lot of speculation and "I read it on a message board"-type sourcing here. 

Very few people are all-monster or all-perfect.