CC, SBC--Beth Moore announcement

[kbutton]

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/march/beth-moore-leave-southern-baptist-sbc-lifeway-abuse-trump.html

Staying away from the fact that some of her frustration has some ties to politics, is anyone else following this story? 

I have to say, it makes me feel more sane that I'm not the only one that feels like things have changed (the people in my church have definitely changed). I've gone to SBC churches for about 20 years (it's an increasingly common denomination here), and I am beyond frustrated myself and unsure of where I will land when I go back to live church after the pandemic. 

Quote

While all this was going on, Moore was working on a new Bible study with her daughter Melissa on the New Testament’s letter to Galatians. As she studied that book, Moore was struck by a passage where the Apostle Paul, the letter’s author, describes a confrontation with Peter, another apostle and early church leader, saying that Peter’s conduct was “not in step with the gospel.”

That phrase, she said, resonated with her. It described what she and other concerned Southern Baptists were seeing as being wrong in their denomination.

“It was not in step with the gospel,” she said. “It felt like we had landed on Mars.”

Mars, indeed. 

I don't intend for this to be an SBC bash fest or a JAWM. I am wondering if others are seeing the same shifts and/or similar shifts in their churches and are dismayed. Anyone else wondering where they might be going to church after the pandemic and coming up with a lot fewer options that they thought they had?

 

[MrsMommy]

I can tell you that we have seen changes in our church, and we have already moved our membership to a different congregation. We're still in the same church body, but the idea of changing denominations did come up at one point.

[ktgrok]

Wow. That's huge. I've known wonderful Southern Baptist churches in decades past, but have seen exactly what she described happen in the ones I've encountered since then. Mind you, I'm not nor have I ever been Baptist, but wow...this is huge. 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Wow. That's huge. I've known wonderful Southern Baptist churches in decades past, but have seen exactly what she described happen in the ones I've encountered since then. Mind you, I'm not nor have I ever been Baptist, but wow...this is huge. 

It seems huge to me as well. My brain is screaming "Of course" and "I can't believe it" at the same time. All of that is overshadowed by a profound sense of relief that what I am seeing is not in my head.

The SBC has informally taken over my alma mater too (strategic hirings, etc., not a charter change), and the changes are such that I told my kids I would be uncomfortable if they decided to attend there. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It seems huge to me as well. My brain is screaming "Of course" and "I can't believe it" at the same time. All of that is overshadowed by a profound sense of relief that what I am seeing is not in my head.

The SBC has informally taken over my alma mater too (strategic hirings, etc., not a charter change), and the changes are such that I told my kids I would be uncomfortable if they decided to attend there. 

Of course and I can't believe it describes it exactly. Like, on the one hand, she's exactly right. And on the other hand, I'd given up on people speaking out about being right. 

May she spark some amazing and important conversations. 

[Terabith]

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/types-of-church?fbclid=IwAR2MTnOCWymNVzpg3IAmlgx5SE-vwsL26t_9ewAWxG0Nz1V2tBS6eTt9HQU

[MercyA]

Good for her! Some sanity for once. 

[Garga]

We changed churches in the middle of the last president’s term because we didn’t fit that church politically and it was coloring everything. We felt just as Moore said above, that they were not in step with biblical doctrine.

And they feel the same way about us.

The leadership in the church where we are now has been very careful not to let anyone know where they stand politically. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Garga

[fairfarmhand]

I'm Baptist, but not Southern Baptist. 

Can you guys be a bit more specific on what you're seeing locally? Because I don't know what is just church in the redneck south and what is actually problematic on a nationwide scale.

(call me an ostrich, but I don't keep up with things like this very well.)

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

I'm Baptist, but not Southern Baptist. 

Can you guys be a bit more specific on what you're seeing locally? Because I don't know what is just church in the redneck south and what is actually problematic on a nationwide scale.

(call me an ostrich, but I don't keep up with things like this very well.)

Is southern baptist even nationwide, really? Never really thought of it being outside the South, but thats probably silly of me. 

[ktgrok]

What I've seen is going from a family friendly experience focused on loving Jesus to a national, assertive, parapolitical organization. 

[Xahm]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

It seems huge to me as well. My brain is screaming "Of course" and "I can't believe it" at the same time. All of that is overshadowed by a profound sense of relief that what I am seeing is not in my head.

The SBC has informally taken over my alma mater too (strategic hirings, etc., not a charter change), and the changes are such that I told my kids I would be uncomfortable if they decided to attend there. 

Completely different conservative denomination for me, but the same thing happened at my alma mater. I wouldn't suggest it to my kids anyway, but now I wouldn't suggest it to anyone.

 

[rebcoola]

Southern baptist churches are all over but it's really not a denomination and their is a fairly wide difference between churches. Some churches are very into doing activities within the association but others really do not.  We are technically part of the Northwest Southern Baptist convention.  I wouldn't even remember we are southern baptist except we do the lottie moon fundraiser each year and their is a nominal fee in the budget each year. 

I wouldn't say I have experienced what Beth Moore talks about.  Their has been some politics-quanon seeping in through a vocal minority.  Our pastor is young and this is his first post and he started in February so things have been rough. We definitely haven't agreed on everything this year but he is quite vocal about not approving of a certain former president and the way he treats people so that's a positive. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by rebcoola

[HS Mom in NC]

I left the SBC 20 years ago after two decades on that sinking ship.

I don't know anything about Beth Moore.  I haven't read her materials or listened to her.

I'm on the verge of leaving Evangelicalism unless there's a Reformation of Evangelicalism around the corner.  

[mom2scouts]

31 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Is southern baptist even nationwide, really? Never really thought of it being outside the South, but thats probably silly of me. 

I was just wondering about this too. I can't think of a single southern baptist church in my area. We mostly have Catholics, mainline Protestant, and non-denominational churches, but a Google search didn't turn up a single Baptist church that's not an independent congregation.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

I'm Baptist, but not Southern Baptist. 

Can you guys be a bit more specific on what you're seeing locally? Because I don't know what is just church in the redneck south and what is actually problematic on a nationwide scale.

(call me an ostrich, but I don't keep up with things like this very well.)

 

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

What I've seen is going from a family friendly experience focused on loving Jesus to a national, assertive, parapolitical organization. 

This is part of it.

The bigger part, for me, is that we can longer talk insider baseball. It's dead. There is one line to toe, and that is it. I am conservative both theologically and politically (but see lots of room for improvement in both the old and new conservative movements), my opinions used to be mainstream, and @600 people at church feel a need to cancel me if I dare to speak out loud any reservations I have about anything. I can't express concern about what support for x, y, or z issue has done to people's consciences. I couldn't voice it when it was on the verge of happening but hadn't even happened yet. It's insane. I am one person, I represent what people used to think, and I must be silenced. Immediately. 

Secondly, at least some of the seminaries (looking at Louisville, and their ilk) are pumping out tyrants. I have had had a ringside or barely removed ringside seat to three church transitions and a college transition where leadership went to someone from those seminaries, and every singe instance, it was like watching the same, terrible tyranny descend. Some people are fine with it--they are good faith people who just saw "Cool, we're doing new, cool stuff" and didn't see HOW that change was implemented, namely by shoving people under the bus. Additionally, they didn't see the other implications of those changes, just the flashy fun stuff. Not the heavy-handed ways of making people leave or shut up. It's evangelical cancel culture with a dose of bullying.

I am also appalled that seminaries and colleges have jettisoned their philosophy and traditional, psychology-based (but through a Christian lens) counseling programs in favor of "Biblical counseling" which used to be called Nouthetic Counseling (Jay Adams). 

Women are being stripped of all influence outside of the under 6th grade crowd (and I think they'd prefer to restrict it to under 4th grade, truthfully). Seminaries and colleges are not allowing women in the Bible department except for stripped down classes geared toward keeping women in their place. A traditional complementarian view (which I am kind of favor of but not precisely) has moved from male leadership in the home and church to a non-defensible subjugation of women, in general, to men, in general. Except if you ask them, they don't believe that. But major people and many minor people (like local pastors and influential sweet church ladies) have said it's not okay to vote for women for public office. What? I mean, I grew up with lots of churches and Christian schools around me displaying an entirely different kind of fundamentalism (manner of dress, KJV only, music, movies, "separation from the world"), but those people didn't have an issue with women running for public office.

It's become so fundamentalist in a new way that I can't even begin to do it justice. And it's so subtle.

My church, in particular, seems to think that if they only hint at taking a stand on some of this, they will be fine. But they are basically getting splinters in their rear from riding the fence, especially politically and pandemically. They are losing people to both the more left and more right, from what I gather. They don't talk about this denominational stuff though. They are big, big, big on cooperation for the gospel and truly seem to have a blind spot for how they are and are not addressing the other issues by their silence and/or hints. During the pandemic, the best they've been able to muster is to say people have to wear a mask, but then they take them off as soon as they sit down (stop lying on the website, literally, for God's sake--I don't mean that blasphemously at all--stop lying) and mamby pamby single statements like conspiracy theories are silly. Yet we live in a hotbed of conspiracy theory and people advocating not getting tested for Covid so that they don't contribute to the great deceit. 

My local church wants to focus on the gospel, but they are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good right now. In fact, they are propping up lies (I am certain it's inadvertent), and I hear we are losing people and maybe money. But they don't even send announcements out basically at all anymore, which feeds speculation.

So, there is the denominational and local take from me--others might have different complaints.

 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

He will call things out Biblically, but never bringing politics into it.

This would be a change. I think ours thinks that's what he's doing, but he's not, and he's not addressing nearly enough bad behavior that is politically adjacent but can be addressed biblically in a generic way, in my opinion.

[J-rap]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/march/beth-moore-leave-southern-baptist-sbc-lifeway-abuse-trump.html

Staying away from the fact that some of her frustration has some ties to politics, is anyone else following this story? 

I have to say, it makes me feel more sane that I'm not the only one that feels like things have changed (the people in my church have definitely changed). I've gone to SBC churches for about 20 years (it's an increasingly common denomination here), and I am beyond frustrated myself and unsure of where I will land when I go back to live church after the pandemic. 

Mars, indeed. 

I don't intend for this to be an SBC bash fest or a JAWM. I am wondering if others are seeing the same shifts and/or similar shifts in their churches and are dismayed. Anyone else wondering where they might be going to church after the pandemic and coming up with a lot fewer options that they thought they had?

 

This is what I've noticed:  I've had close friendships with people for years and years, many from very different church backgrounds.  But we always shared our faith and core beliefs, and any random difference of opinions didn't matter.  In the past two years or so, that has changed and we suddenly are facing roadblocks in our friendship that we've never had before...  It has been a real shock as I've seen them go off on paths that don't make any sense to me.  Really bizarre.  It makes me very sad.  It also includes some extended family members.

But it's not just Southern Baptist. It's certain non-denominational Bible churches, Covenant churches, other Baptist churches (not Southern Baptist), some charismatic churches....  I guess they'd all identify as evangelicals.

YAY for Beth Moore!!  I don't know much about her because I've always tended to stay away from evangelical church fads.  (Even if they're good!)  But, I think if more people like her decide to step up, it WILL make a difference.  I think people by nature are followers and it takes wise leaders to steer them a different direction.  I'm hopeful!

We stopped going to our increasingly conservative church about 8 years ago, gradually just listening to on-line sermons at other churches.  (And before then, we attended Lutheran and Catholic churches, so we didn't grow up or start our family life in the more conservative church environment.)  We moved last year to a city that has a theologian/pastor who we really respect, so we were able to find a great church home!  He and the entire church team (there are several pastors there -- some women) have not let us down.  I think they've been very wise about how they've dealt with all of the ongoing current (and political) events.  (The church is a non-denominational anabaptist spinoff.)

Just to add...  I sometimes feel badly about bashing "conservative" churches because I've seen some that are very humble and loving, even if I don't agree with everything.  I believe God meets people at different places and can meet people in conservative settings as well as not conservative settings.  (But I don't like using terms like progressive and liberal because that makes it seems like they're choosing to go beyond Scripture.  In my opinion, they're actually trying harder to align with Scripture, but it just happens to appear as less-conservative.)

 

 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

I think it can be hard because the pastor may not be bringing up politics, but if the most influential (yeah $$$) members of the church have strong views, it vibrates through. 
 

Not speaking for SBC specifically  - I think the changes in their leadership and seminaries over the past 10-15 years tell that tale - but for the evangelical church in general, there are pastors finding themselves stuck between rocks and hard places. ETA that means they must make hard choices and face the possible backlash. 

Undoubtedly, but I think ours thinks he's riding that line well. Sigh.

He's a few years from retirement, and I'd already decided that we'd probably leave when he goes. First, our church constitution seems to give him a ton of power that I would not trust another single human with, ever. Secondly, I assume they'll recruit from an SBC seminary--hard no from me. Thirdly, we are almost entirely white. I grew up where people of other races basically didn't exist, but that is not the case here. It's become clear to me that unless I look for a more diverse church, I will never meet POC in this area. That's appalling to me and sad. (I don't work outside the home, and when I did, it was in an industry that was not locally diverse at the time--might be now.) My husband works but is not very good at forming friendships at work. 

[kbutton]

6 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

I think it can be hard because the pastor may not be bringing up politics, but if the most influential (yeah $$$) members of the church have strong views, it vibrates through. 
 

Not speaking for SBC specifically  - I think the changes in their leadership and seminaries over the past 10-15 years tell that tale - but for the evangelical church in general, there are pastors finding themselves stuck between rocks and hard places. ETA that means they must make hard choices and face the possible backlash. 

Oh, and ours doesn't bring up politics often, but he does make his views known. He stated a few months ago that he is a nationalist. Just one line that is easily missed. He had hinted at it once, previously. The blatant statement made my blood run cold.

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Just to add...  I sometimes feel badly about bashing "conservative" churches because I've seen some that are very humble and loving, even if I don't agree with everything.  I believe God meets people at different places and can meet people in conservative settings as well as not conservative settings.  (But I don't like using terms like progressive and liberal because that makes it seems like they're choosing to go beyond Scripture.  In my opinion, they're actually trying harder to align with Scripture, but it just happens to appear as less-conservative.)

Nicely stated.

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

Good for her! Some sanity for once. 

YES. I cheered out loud when I read the article.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Harriet Vane
Correct a typo

[Ottakee]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Is southern baptist even nationwide, really? Never really thought of it being outside the South, but thats probably silly of me. 

I grew up on a Southern Baptist Church .....in MICHIGAN.

[Ellie]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Is southern baptist even nationwide, really? Never really thought of it being outside the South, but that's probably silly of me. 

Mr. Ellie grew up in Southern California. His father was a deacon in a Southern Baptist church, so yes, it's national (at least; I haven't looked to see if it's international or not).

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

I was just wondering about this too. I can't think of a single southern baptist church in my area. We mostly have Catholics, mainline Protestant, and non-denominational churches, but a Google search didn't turn up a single Baptist church that's not an independent congregation.

They're all over the west. That's where I attended them.

[HS Mom in NC]

Let's not forget that this isn't just about politics seeping into church, it's about the sex scandal cover up too. When the articles about her talk about her speaking up on behalf of sexual abuse victims, it's because male leadership in the SBC knew there were sex offenders in their midst and shoved it under the rug.

[BlsdMama]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/march/beth-moore-leave-southern-baptist-sbc-lifeway-abuse-trump.html

Staying away from the fact that some of her frustration has some ties to politics, is anyone else following this story? 

I have to say, it makes me feel more sane that I'm not the only one that feels like things have changed (the people in my church have definitely changed). I've gone to SBC churches for about 20 years (it's an increasingly common denomination here), and I am beyond frustrated myself and unsure of where I will land when I go back to live church after the pandemic. 

Mars, indeed. 

I don't intend for this to be an SBC bash fest or a JAWM. I am wondering if others are seeing the same shifts and/or similar shifts in their churches and are dismayed. Anyone else wondering where they might be going to church after the pandemic and coming up with a lot fewer options that they thought they had?

 

I’m working really hard to avoid FB posts and political conversations in the current time with people I really want to like and respect when this blows past. 

[kbutton]

Just now, BlsdMama said:

I’m working really hard to avoid FB posts and political conversations in the current time with people I really want to like and respect when this blows past. 

Too late for me. I shared science-y pandemic stuff right away (my husband is a clinician). I gently questioned weird posts before I knew anything about QAnon. I unfriended people I realized were off the deep end within days of the shutdown in our state--I didn't know they were spouting QAnon stuff, but I knew they were too far gone for dialog. 

I really just wanted to be known for stability and factual information, not knowing that was actually going to drive a wedge with most people. I figured a few would be annoyed but that they were the fringe. Ha!  

I have, in the before days, been perceived and thanked as a source for factual information of various kinds, and I didn't think the pandemic would be political (and there are some people far to the right of me who are totally all-in with good pandemic science). I simply misjudged the people in my geographic area/church body by being at the forefront of trying to spread good information. There was sort of a middle point when I couldn't identify what was making people nuts, but I knew things were...off. At that point I quoted some verses in Exodus about mob mentality, lol, saying if something was questionable, don't post it and make a liar of yourself (and cause others to chase falsehoods too).

I definitely knew the political stuff was political, and once I'd burned bridges, I just tried to be nice/concerned if I posted something from an "opposing" viewpoint (lol, definitely same side of the political spectrum, just not extreme). At that point, I am sure I'd already been unfollowed by nearly everyone.

[StillStanding]

1 hour ago, Thatboyofmine said:

😱

1. In my area, many SBC pastors share political stuff on FB, assume everyone is R like them, etc.    I’ve been part of the Methodist church here and have been through a pastor change there.  Neither of those pastors have ever shared a single thing that was political.  ...

I am from the TN (many SBC here). This is spot on. I' m Methodist too ( my church is pretty liberal), but many of my friends (used to be friends) attend SBC. Many are lovely people,... people who in the last 4 years....well, lets just say I don't understand them any more. When politics is preached from the pulpit, they do not question it. If their pastor says it is so, then it is so.

Same goes for some Evangelical nondenominational churches in this area (one of the pastors was arrested because he participated in the events of January 6th). Three of the families I used to do co-op with went to his church.

I have struggled understanding how perfectly nice people could fall into a cult like mentality, but it easier to understand when you realize they are being pitched alternative facts from the pulpit.

Edited March 11, 2021 by StillStanding

[lauraw4321]

I grew up in a large SBC church. I struggled mightily to believe after I found myself unable to believe a 7 day creation story. I went through a big period of doubt, because so much of my faith was built on the Bible being inerrant. 
 

I made my way to a UMC church and un-learned and re-learned about Jesus. I mostly fit in the PCUSA church, but there’s not enough youth. Now I’m struggling with the UMC because of the marriage equality issue. 

All this to say, good for Beth Moore. I hope other women feel empowered by her. 

[lauraw4321]

Oh, I’ll add that I recall our pastor urging everyone to vote for George Bush (Sr.) for his reelection. From the pulpit. I considered myself an R at the time and was a teenager, but I was uncomfortable with that. The link between the GOP and SBC is very strong and has been for a long time. 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Oh, I’ll add that I recall our pastor urging everyone to vote for George Bush (Sr.) for his reelection. From the pulpit. I considered myself an R at the time and was a teenager, but I was uncomfortable with that. The link between the GOP and SBC is very strong and has been for a long time. 

I will readily admit to being comfortable with that kind of thing at one point. I guess I have learned how bad of an idea that is. But, and this is a big but, we/they freely criticized the same people they supported, and that is no longer allowed. 

ETA: I no longer think this kind of endorsement should be made from a pulpit.

Edited March 11, 2021 by kbutton

[Ottakee]

34 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Oh, I’ll add that I recall our pastor urging everyone to vote for George Bush (Sr.) for his reelection. From the pulpit. I considered myself an R at the time and was a teenager, but I was uncomfortable with that. The link between the GOP and SBC is very strong and has been for a long time. 

I have heard it said, they aren't worried about losing their religious freedom.....they are worried about losing their power.

[katilac]

5 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I’m working really hard to avoid FB posts and political conversations in the current time with people I really want to like and respect when this blows past. 

Can it be called respect if you have to actively avoid listening to their core beliefs in order to maintain it? 

[PeterPan]

17 hours ago, kbutton said:

The SBC has informally taken over my alma mater too (strategic hirings, etc., not a charter change), and the changes are such that I told my kids I would be uncomfortable if they decided to attend there. 

I'm not much of a historian, but I was compelled to take a baptist history class for my undergrad and pretty much picked up that there's this perpetual cycle of"

-You're bad!

-We separate

-We start worshipping a new man.

-That man/movement is bad!

-We separate

...

It's stupid and they do it and keep doing it. So yes, the fad in the baptist circles changed again. I think it's only because of our comparative youth (haha) that was don't realize these cycles, but if you read a baptist or church history text they're there. 

Some of it involves doctrinal corrections and swings. Some of it is political. But to me, in the hack simplistic b/w way I think of everything it's man worship. They're all looking for a man to follow and they find a new one and off they go. MacArthur, Piper, you name it, they just keep moving on. 

I have to wonder if the oldest in the church view this with amusement. God is the same all the way, but the flavor and what they're stuck on keeps changing, lol.

So for what you're analyzing, yes look at the specific person/movement/theological teaching they're latching onto. There's usually a person or a personality. People just seem very prone to want this. We have very unchanging churches in our area that need to update and churches that are indeed updating in ways that will probably end up a little band wagony. But I just watch it and chuckle. Our church seems to tell people to deal with differences (political, religious trends) and they preach that from the pulpit.

[MercyA]

13 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

I grew up in a large SBC church. I struggled mightily to believe after I found myself unable to believe a 7 day creation story. I went through a big period of doubt, because so much of my faith was built on the Bible being inerrant. 

This to me is unspeakably tragic. How completely and utterly unnecessary of them to emphasize such a thing. 

[1234]

13 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

I grew up in a large SBC church. I struggled mightily to believe after I found myself unable to believe a 7 day creation story. I went through a big period of doubt, because so much of my faith was built on the Bible being inerrant. 
 

I made my way to a UMC church and un-learned and re-learned about Jesus. I mostly fit in the PCUSA church, but there’s not enough youth. Now I’m struggling with the UMC because of the marriage equality issue. 

All this to say, good for Beth Moore. I hope other women feel empowered by her. 

I also went through a very serious phase doubting my own faith because of the SBC. I grew up attending only SBC churches and we had to believe in a 7 day creation, evolution wasn’t real, dinosaurs never existed, etc. Then, you add on that you are only allowed to dance if married and never allowed a single drink (as well as many other crazy things like Cabbage Patch dolls and the Smurfs are evil), and it became too much as a young adult. I didn’t attend any church for several years and it was the absolute best thing for me because I realized I actually had a very strong faith and belief in all the things that actually matter. As an adult with a family we’ve found our way to the Episcopal church and it suits us well. 

Good for Beth Moore and I sincerely hope my own family of origin finds their way out of it too. They have become people over the last several years that I don’t really recognize. We had no trouble weathering me finding a new church home and believing different things until the last few years. Now, it’s just weird and uncomfortable because everything they believe seems to have become non negotiable for being a Christian.
 

[MercyA]

3 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I grew up attending only SBC churches and we had to believe in a 7 day creation, evolution wasn’t real, dinosaurs never existed, etc. Then, you add on that you are only allowed to dance if married and never allowed a single drink (as well as many other crazy things like Cabbage Patch dolls and the Smurfs are evil),

I guess Jesus wasn't allowed to be a member. 😞 

[Sneezyone]

Take heart, folks. There are plenty of ABC churches available. Same/similar doctrine and teachings, more congregational autonomy, and without the extra helping of racism and sexism. They even have seminaries.

[Paige]

 

17 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

I was just wondering about this too. I can't think of a single southern baptist church in my area. We mostly have Catholics, mainline Protestant, and non-denominational churches, but a Google search didn't turn up a single Baptist church that's not an independent congregation.

I would be very surprised if you live in a moderately sized city and don't have a SBC in your community. What's more likely is you have a stealth SBC. There's a trend of churches not advertising their affiliation with the SBC because they know there's a stigma and are afraid that it will affect who chooses to visit their churches. You may not know unless you dig into their bylaws. 

Southern Baptists are super into church planting and domestic mission fields- they are everywhere. 

[Paige]

It will be interesting to see how they respond to Beth Moore. Her books used to be SO popular and promoted. Everyone loved her. Will she be shunned or will people still have classes with her books and say something about how they are sad to see her go?

[73349]

To see SBC churches near you: https://churches.sbc.net/ There are 51,000 SBC congregations. (My church is not one of them, having been kicked out for being nice to gay people.) They are big and vocal, and they are what most Americans think of when thinking of Baptists.

American Baptist Churches is a bit smaller and more to the center: https://www.abc-usa.org/find-a-church/

Alliance of Baptists (typically progressive) is quite small: https://allianceofbaptists.org/partners/congregational-partners

There are other Baptist denominations as well--over a dozen.

[frogger]

I've noticed a trend in the mass marketing, fads, and popular bandwagons too and this has (I think) led to a politicized and propagandized version of Christianity.   I've noticed this for a good 20 years and I'm not sure if things were like that earlier or if I was just too young to notice.

The last decade I've noticed this diversion was in a number of churches. It seems to be congregations that are susceptible to mass marketing etc. I don't think it is one denomination. A large part of Evangelicalism is going a direction that seems diametrically opposed to what I believe and I'm pleasantly relieved to find on this thread that I am not alone. 

 

I think the church is meant to be a local thing. A hands on, bring a meal, visit the sick, walk with each other thing that is being usurped by social media and big fancy conferences. My church is in this battle now for hearts. Some are tempted to follow the marketing but overall I think they are sheep being led by wolves and I really want to put up warning signs or roadblocks or something. 

[Lale]

Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Du Mez is a must read for those who are struggling with evangelicalism. It helped me make sense of so much that has bothered me over the last decade of my struggle with the church. As someone who has deep ties with the SBC through various institutions at the state and national levels, I have seen my fair share of the power struggles and toxicity behind the scenes. I know they exist in other denominations but this is the one that I have experience with, and I'm over it and so tired.

I'm amazed that Beth Moore stuck it out for as long as she has. She has been a lightning rod for the SBC, bringing out the ugliest of behavior from those who should be calling out the abuse, racism, and misogyny in their own ranks. 

[ktgrok]

When I attended some events at SB churches years and years ago, it was very casual...everyone knew that certain things were held true, but it wasn't in your face, aggressive type promotion. Focus was on Jesus's love more than anything. That is not what I've found in the last 5 years or more...closer to 10 maybe. It became much more pastor focused, my way or the highway. 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not much of a historian, but I was compelled to take a baptist history class for my undergrad and pretty much picked up that there's this perpetual cycle of"

-You're bad!

-We separate

-We start worshipping a new man.

-That man/movement is bad!

-We separate

...

It's stupid and they do it and keep doing it. So yes, the fad in the baptist circles changed again. I think it's only because of our comparative youth (haha) that was don't realize these cycles, but if you read a baptist or church history text they're there. 

Some of it involves doctrinal corrections and swings. Some of it is political. But to me, in the hack simplistic b/w way I think of everything it's man worship. They're all looking for a man to follow and they find a new one and off they go. MacArthur, Piper, you name it, they just keep moving on. 

I have to wonder if the oldest in the church view this with amusement. God is the same all the way, but the flavor and what they're stuck on keeps changing, lol.

So for what you're analyzing, yes look at the specific person/movement/theological teaching they're latching onto. There's usually a person or a personality. People just seem very prone to want this. We have very unchanging churches in our area that need to update and churches that are indeed updating in ways that will probably end up a little band wagony. But I just watch it and chuckle. Our church seems to tell people to deal with differences (political, religious trends) and they preach that from the pulpit.

I feel like our church tries hard to avoid this, but it's been more like swerving to miss a deer in the road and hitting the guardrail instead. We don't have a lot of fuss over changing musical styles and things like that. Our pastor grew up Pentacostal, and he laughs and laughs if someone says our music is getting too wild, lol! They try new things without getting too attached in case they don't work, but they also truly try to fix what isn't working. I have been largely okay with their level of SBC involvement, but when I start to hear about nationalism, connect the dots to the larger context, and then contemplate a pastor retiring--it's just time to pull out if I'm already at the point that I can no longer relate to my fellow parishioners over this stuff. Why prolong the inevitable?

Re: the bolded. I am going to come back to that because @ktgrok hit the nail on the head with what is happening. It's not just worship of celebrity pastors--it's more than that. I'll comment on her post to clarify what I mean.

3 hours ago, Joker2 said:

Now, it’s just weird and uncomfortable because everything they believe seems to have become non negotiable for being a Christian.

Yes, though you and I might agree on what range of non-negotiables we're comfortable with. I think most people can agree that wrestling with these concepts (and others) and coming out strengthened for having had the conversation is very different from not being allowed to have the conversation.

12 hours ago, katilac said:

Can it be called respect if you have to actively avoid listening to their core beliefs in order to maintain it? 

QFT. Core biblical beliefs and core political beliefs need to be weighted differently. They would say the same right back at me, but that's because they've made many things political that need not be.

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Take heart, folks. There are plenty of ABC churches available. Same/similar doctrine and teachings, more congregational autonomy, and without the extra helping of racism and sexism. They even have seminaries.

Sneezyone and @Carolina Wren, thanks for naming some alternatives that are similar. If anyone wants to add to the list, I'll take the information. I grew up non-denominational church in an area surrounded by independent Baptist churches (I grew up in the general area where the General Association of Regular Baptists was invented but didn't actually know this until I was nearly out of high school, lol!), so I am woefully underprepared to church shop laterally within the Baptist milieu. I did have some wonderful primers on variations between major denominations (and a little history of the GARB), but no fine-toothed comb analysis of what's available under the Baptist umbrella.

1 hour ago, frogger said:

I've noticed a trend in the mass marketing, fads, and popular bandwagons too and this has (I think) led to a politicized and propagandized version of Christianity.   I've noticed this for a good 20 years and I'm not sure if things were like that earlier or if I was just too young to notice.

The last decade I've noticed this diversion was in a number of churches. It seems to be congregations that are susceptible to mass marketing etc. I don't think it is one denomination. A large part of Evangelicalism is going a direction that seems diametrically opposed to what I believe and I'm pleasantly relieved to find on this thread that I am not alone. 

 

I think the church is meant to be a local thing. A hands on, bring a meal, visit the sick, walk with each other thing that is being usurped by social media and big fancy conferences. My church is in this battle now for hearts. Some are tempted to follow the marketing but overall I think they are sheep being led by wolves and I really want to put up warning signs or roadblocks or something. 

I have heard this called the Evangelical Industrial Complex piggybacking off of the Military Industrial Complex reference.

I will note that my individual church still does the bring a meal, walk with each other thing...it's just that it's also assumed you think just like them about everything, especially in the last 4-5 years. I mistook a lack of groupthink about things like schooling options (big deal at many churches) or other typical areas of groupthink to be an absence of groupthink in general. And, honestly, the groupthink could be new in my congregation. I just don't see it changing. 

28 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

When I attended some events at SB churches years and years ago, it was very casual...everyone knew that certain things were held true, but it wasn't in your face, aggressive type promotion. Focus was on Jesus's love more than anything. That is not what I've found in the last 5 years or more...closer to 10 maybe. It became much more pastor focused, my way or the highway. 

The bolded is what I am seeing happen in the seminaries and with the pastors they churn out. I think they have this tattoed on their butts before leaving. It's this mentality to the point of abusing the sheep. This is what I was attempting to get at when I said I have had a ringside or nearly ringside seat to several transitions to new leadership that involved SBC pastors or my alma mater.

This is precisely what is destroying my alma mater when combined with certain ideologies. It used to be an environment of iron sharpens iron within a set of agreed upon beliefs and practices. They tried to major on the majors and not stress on the minor points. There was give and take. 

The authority-focused mindset has been very harmful when combined with a removal of the philosophy major, and the change to "biblical counseling." The ideology of the biblical counseling mindset is creating a harmful environment. I can be more specific about a major problem this created, via PM. 

The changes at my alma mater were a planned but informal takeover by the SBC. On the surface, the school and the SBC seemed well-aligned, and the conservative part of the SBC had "lost" their colleges while retaining their seminaries (ideologically). My alma mater was a logical choice for them to recommend to students who were in the conservative ranks (as defined by the conservative resurgence and Baptist Faith and Message, blah, blah). Then SBC members started being placed on the board, and now it's all shot to heck and back. Paige Patterson and his cronies did their damage, colonized the place, and then made over the school from the inside out. They managed to weather some bad publicity until recently, and I thought maybe the damage was just infighting that was just a tempest in the teapot. Sadly, it's not so. 

[rebcoola]

None of what you guys are saying sounds like our church at all.  Though I guess we might be an undercover southern baptist church.  It was planted by SBC 40 yrs ago. We are on their search list but their is nothing on our site that says anything about being a member.  We dance, drink, are open handed about creation and the majority do not believe in a literal 7 day earth.   I'm not even really sure how the churches are connected I know they provided help finding a new pastor when we needed one.  But we write our own Statement of faith our own membership covenant and operating procedures.  The convention wasn't involved when we made the move to go from a member led church to elder led.  Maybe it's regional how tightly they all band together?  We have a bunch of other SBC churches here and they really aren't that similar to us or each other or do much together.

Edited March 11, 2021 by rebcoola

[kbutton]

22 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

None of what you guys are saying sounds like our church at all.  Though I guess we might be an undercover southern baptist church.  It was planted by SBC 40 yrs ago. We are on their search list but their is nothing on our site that says anything about being a member.  We dance, drink, are open handed about creation and the majority do not believe in a literal 7 day earth.   I'm not even really sure how the churches are connected I know they provided help finding a new pastor when we needed one.  But we write our own Statement of faith our own membership covenant and operating procedures.  The convention wasn't involved when we made the move to go from a member led church to elder led.  Maybe it's regional how tightly they all band together?  We have a bunch of other SBC churches here and they really aren't that similar to us or each other or do much together.

Well, the SBC does not have a denominational hierarchy, so some of that is not a surprise to me. +/- on the creationism (there is a certain amount of don't ask, don't tell, just be respectful when it comes up in some churches). Drinking is also a +/- with don't ask, don't tell, but they do ask the youth leaders to refrain from drinking specifically (DH voluntarily stopped drinking his 2-3 beers per year, lol!), and it slants teetotaler (but people would not freak out if they see you buying alcohol at the grocery store, etc. either). 

Our church is not stealth. It's also not enslaved to the denomination, but it is following the same trends toward nationalism and such that is ensnaring the denomination as a whole. So, it could be that our church would be having the same issues without being SBC. I am globally thinking about the future of my church with a retiring pastor and rising nationalism and seeing the writing on the wall. 

It would not surprise me if most people in my church do not really know what's going on in the broader SBC outside of missionary work or disaster relief.

[kbutton]

@rebcoola, the more I think about this, the more I don't want to discourage you about your own church. Stay there, love people, serve, do what you've been doing. 

I think the faction of the SBC that's causing this grief is purposefully doing it slowly and stealthily, and I just happen to see things because I am in a church that is apparently nationalistic, because of my alma mater, and because of the young/recent seminary grads that are bombastic control freaks. It's quite possible that your church could continue on for a long time without this being an issue at all.

I am geographically quite close to my alma mater and to one of the flagship seminaries, which might also make a difference.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

54 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

This is a bunny trail... but this is how I feel about prayer in schools.  Around here, there’s this big push for Christian prayer in schools.  And I’m like ‘why in the world would you want that?!’.    If prayer is allowed, doesn’t it make sense that any prayer is allowed (or eventually will be)? What then?   You can’t have Christian prayer in schools and not allow another religious group to have their prayer, at least not IMO.   And who wants the teacher, who might believe some whackdoodle form of your own religion, offering up a prayer in front of your kids?   What if the teacher’s prayer is as whackadoodle as he/she is??    
Off my soapbox now... 

When people engage me in this conversation I point out to them that I'm so particular about what my children are taught about prayer among other biblical issues, there are Christian Churches I wouldn't let my kids attend because I think they're getting it wrong enough that it matters.