People who refuse to vote because it’s mail-in ballot

[Ginevra]

Y’all...I do not get it. Our primaries are today and I know *ahem* someone who is declining to vote because our ballot is mail-in (at present; not typically). I don’t understand the cutting off of a nose to spite the face. Now - it is true this person’s preferred party doesn’t get much play here, so, I do understand the feeling of, “Well it doesn’t matter anyway.” But I really, really don’t understand what is accomplished by sitting it out, pouting on the sidelines. We also have locked drop-boxes in the place where we would normally vote; voting that way is 90% exactly the same thing as voting in person would be. I voted yesterday in this manner. 

Actually, one thing I like *much better* using the drop box is that there is normally two dozen campaign people standing outside blabbing at me as I go in to vote, which I hate with a fiery passion. This was much more agreeable! 

[Katy]

I signed up to do ours by mail through the end of the year.  I love it for the same reasons as you.

And I don't get it either.  It's like how the party who is protesting safe social distancing is also the one who is getting sick and dying, at least where we live.  There's a way to make a permanent shift in a direction you don't want to go, just wear the stupid mask!

[QueenCat]

I don't get it either. People often vote with absentee ballots, for a variety of reasons. For it to be an option for all, or the "way" for all, is fine. If they don't want to vote, they don't get to complain to me about who won.

[Katy]

There must have been someone ranting about it on a news channel.  It's the only thing that makes sense.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

There must have been someone ranting about it on a news channel.  It's the only thing that makes sense.

I think that must be so. 

[Farrar]

A relative was  posting that no one should be allowed to vote by mail. She reposts it now every few days. Finally, I was like, even the military stationed out of state or country? Even the president,  who always votes by mail? Even in the states where it's the only method of voting? Yep. None of them should be able to vote. Like, not the military. I can't even.

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, OKBud said:

That's what I was going to say. We're accustomed to it. Can you imagine saying the military shouldn't be able to vote LOL it's ludicrous. 

I think her reaction was just knee-jerk. But yeah, it's like if a certain person suggests something, then all logic flies out the window to  support it with no reflection among some folks.

[Ali in OR]

Anytime the distant relative posts "No vote by mail" on facebook, I reply with what seems largely unknown in this country. Oregon has been vote by mail only for over 20 years. Everyone loves it. Vote at your convenience at your kitchen table. Read about the issues in the Voter's Pamphlet as you vote. Talk about the issues with your children. Mail your ballot or drop it off in the lockbox in the library lobby. Or the dropbox at the county courthouse right by the street (like a mail box). Never worry about whether your work shift will make it hard to vote, or that you'll have to stand in line forever, or that "they" don't provide enough polling places for your race/socioeconomic bracket/political party. Appreciate your right to vote on a deeper level--it's not just standing in line and getting a sticker. It's spending the time researching issues and candidates, and making sure you get that ballot turned in on time.

It's ridiculous to argue that it doesn't work or leads to bad things. It doesn't. We have 20+ years of experience in this country. Everyone should have the same opportunity to vote in this convenient yet thoughtful way.

[Farrar]

It's also the case that studies show that vote by mail does not clearly favor one side or the other. Like, at all. So the idea that one side needs to quash it is coming purely from the gut feeling they have to limit the democratic process or they'll lose power. It's not even true for this particular aspect. It's entirely irrational.

I don't want vote by mail this year to increase because I think it will help "my side." I want it because it will prevent increased infections in a pandemic, potentially when the virus is surging again.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Farrar

[chiguirre]

44 minutes ago, Katy said:

There must have been someone ranting about it on a news channel.  It's the only thing that makes sense.

The usual suspect on twitter.

[HS Mom in NC]

I've been voluntarily voting by mail for years.  I get my ballot in the  mail and then turn it in in person.  I don't see how that option with locked boxes that hold ballots is any more subject to voter fraud than any other option.  We've managed to provide absentee voting by mail to the military and citizens out of the country, and we have some states who have been voting by mail for years.  It's just expanding to a wider audience. 

I do think there are people who are by nature, age,  and/or upbringing rigid and inflexible who cannot handle any kind of change without panicking. Add to that the polarizing nature of political discussion and media these days which presents all consequences of not adopting their preferred policies as calamitous and civilization destroying, and you get this over reaction to proposed change.  If they have a particular point about how exactly it's more prone to fraud than the other options, I welcome the specific discussion on that matter, but I haven't heard any specifics yet beyond, "It could result in voter fraud."

[Spryte]

Oh, for Pete’s sake, someone is going to waive their right to vote because they don’t like the way the votes are being cast?  I guess the issues aren’t that important to that person after all? I hope they won’t complain after the election.  I don’t understand protest votes or non-votes.  At all.

No one should endanger their health or face fear and anxiety at the ballot box, for any reason.  

[JennyD]

Wow, that is some effective disinformation.

 

[Lanny]

I vote Absentee because I live overseas. The law is called the Move Act. This is a link explaining it. It is for deployed military and their families and Overseas Americans (civilians). https://www.fvap.gov/info/laws/uocava  When I vote from here, it was by Snail Mail before but now I believe they will let me submit my ballot by email, although that is not private. But they receive it and in Snail Mail they  probably would not receive it on time or at all. 

I am opposed to the idea of everyone voting by mail. The chances of fraud are extremely high.   And, of having "Early Voting" begin many days or weeks before the actual election day.

There are pros and cons to everything, and I believe there are places (Oregon?) where all elections are handled by mail, but I like the idea of everyone voting on the same day and going to the polling station to do it.

When it became possible for them to send my Absentee Ballots as email attachments, that was a huge improvement, because there had been some elections where my Absentee Ballot arrived after the election or so close to it that the only way I could have sent it and had it received on time would have been via FedEx.

Like so many things in life, this is very controversial.

[Guest]

I am in one of the states that limits absentee ballots by a lot, and my big concern is that most of the poll worker are elderly, DAR types here. Those sweet ladies do NOT need to be breathed on by a bunch of people. 

[El...]

I've been thinking, I'd like to see more volunteers to be poll workers among my age group. Since so many of the normal volunteers are older and therefore more at risk of covid complications, I think it would be a good thing for more people who care to step up.

I wish I could do that myself, but I live over here in Europe atm, and just have to try to provoke people to act from a distance!

Also, anyone who forgoes their opportunity to vote because they don't like the mail...well, that seems self critiquing. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Our state is only mail in voting.  Or maybe mostly mail in voting.  I think that there are a couple of spots where you can vote by person in each county.  Has been for years.  I didn't like it at first.  I had liked going to the polls, seeing neighbors lining up to vote, showing my kids democracy at work.  But mail in ballots has allowed us to sit around the dining room table and talking about the candidates and the issues while we vote (each our own choice) and that's been nice too.  Just a different way to see democracy at work. 

[Arcadia]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

. Now - it is true this person’s preferred party doesn’t get much play here, so, I do understand the feeling of, “Well it doesn’t matter anyway.” But I really, really don’t understand what is accomplished by sitting it out, pouting on the sidelines. 

Here it is a dominant party so people have become apathetic to politics. They do go and vote on the new tax and bond measures if they feel taxed to death. 

 

2 hours ago, Spryte said:

.  I don’t understand protest votes or non-votes.  At all.

I have lived in areas that are predominantly one party. Protest votes has been useful to make the dominant party less complacent. My husband had lived in areas with walkovers for decades and those areas are low priority for improvements (better roads, sidewalks) since the dominant party is not afraid of losing votes. 

[Wheres Toto]

I saw some people who are definitely not supporters of the one screaming about mail=in voter fraud, say they were worried about mail-in ballots disappearing.  I guess the concerns depend on who is gathering/counting the ballots once they are received?   What kind of safeties are in place to avoid "lost" ballots.

[gardenmom5]

all I can say is - don't move to Washington.  We've had mail only ballots for a number of years.

they dont' have to staff voting locations,, etc.  I worked at one once, it was interesting . . . . 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yeah it’s a fraud vector, and ballot harvesting is an issue.  But I don’t know of anyone actually refusing to vote, they’re just not happy about it as a default with no in person option.  I think almost everyone is fine with absentee mail in ballots being available, it’s not having any in person polling places that rubs wrong.

In our area in the past, not sure what will happen this year, you could mail it in OR drop it off at a polling station. 

I don't see us having the ability to staff in person polling places well, given that it is almost always the elderly doing it, and they are the most at risk. Having one person there supervise people dropping off ballots would be much easier. 

6 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

I saw some people who are definitely not supporters of the one screaming about mail=in voter fraud, say they were worried about mail-in ballots disappearing.  I guess the concerns depend on who is gathering/counting the ballots once they are received?   What kind of safeties are in place to avoid "lost" ballots.

You can log in and see if your vote was counted, I believe?

[J-rap]

I love the experience of voting in person.  But, I have nothing against voting by mail, especially during a pandemic for goodness sake.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

I saw some people who are definitely not supporters of the one screaming about mail=in voter fraud, say they were worried about mail-in ballots disappearing.  I guess the concerns depend on who is gathering/counting the ballots once they are received?   What kind of safeties are in place to avoid "lost" ballots.

Well, the person I was talking about who was mad about mail-in noted that the envelope has voter affiliation printed directly ON it. I do think that’s dumb and don’t know why it is necessary. This person was saying, “maybe the postal worker looks at that and says, ‘oh, look! A vote by a ————-! Guess I’ll just put this through the shredder...” I do think they have a point; however, considering all the important stuff that goes through our post office, I can’t see what’s so sacrosanct about a voting ballot.

PS. The person I’m talking about did ultimately vote after I nagged them. 

[Katy]

4 hours ago, chiguirre said:

The usual suspect on twitter.

 

Please someone tell me who the "usual suspect" is?  I quit twitter ten years ago when Justin Bieber joined it.

[Ali in OR]

The five states that have vote by mail have practically no fraud. It's a made-up, I'm-trying-to-scare-you concern. There are safeguards in place to prevent fraud. The reason there is sudden concern about vote-by-mail is because it doesn't fit in as well with plans for voter-suppression. Right now I can make sure you don't have many polling locations in your less-desired community, or make sure election day is always on a work day, or purge your name off the list and you don't find out until election day. Vote by mail goes better with a philosophy that everybody votes and we don't put up roadblocks to make it more difficult for some.

[Arcadia]

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

Well, the person I was talking about who was mad about mail-in noted that the envelope has voter affiliation printed directly ON it. I do think that’s dumb and don’t know why it is necessary. This person was saying, “maybe the postal worker looks at that and says, ‘oh, look! A vote by a ————-! Guess I’ll just put this through the shredder...” I do think they have a point; however, considering all the important stuff that goes through our post office, I can’t see what’s so sacrosanct about a voting ballot.

We have a USPS staff that habitually dumps packages next to random mailboxes (condo) instead of delivering them to the door. Letters are also randomly dump so I often get mail for neighbors a block away in a totally different apartment complex. My upstairs neighbor’s bank statements was in my mailbox a few times with her correct address, I just went upstairs and ring her doorbell and hand deliver. I am not surprised that people didn’t receive their stimulus checks in the mail.

Here we drop them off at the ballot boxes. If something is important, I’ll trust UPS to deliver rather than USPS. 

[bolt.]

(I'm not an American, but,) do you all think it would be possible to have a few poling places available for people who prefer to cast their votes in person? It would be like a reversal of, "Most people vote in person, but you can mail it in if you need to." -- towards, instead, "Most people vote by mail, but you can vote in person if it's important to you." Would that solve the objections and get everybody voting?

[ktgrok]

37 minutes ago, Quill said:

Well, the person I was talking about who was mad about mail-in noted that the envelope has voter affiliation printed directly ON it. I do think that’s dumb and don’t know why it is necessary. This person was saying, “maybe the postal worker looks at that and says, ‘oh, look! A vote by a ————-! Guess I’ll just put this through the shredder...” I do think they have a point; however, considering all the important stuff that goes through our post office, I can’t see what’s so sacrosanct about a voting ballot.

PS. The person I’m talking about did ultimately vote after I nagged them. 

Well, that would be a huge federal crime, so there is that..not sure a random postal worker wants to risk jail time over that. But can people with concerns drop them off at the supervisor of elections office in their county, if they don't trust the mail?

[ktgrok]

Just double checked. In my state you can go to the supervisor of elections website and log in and see if your mail in ballot was received and counted. 

[Pawz4me]

39 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Please someone tell me who the "usual suspect" is?  I quit twitter ten years ago when Justin Bieber joined it.

The current occupant of the White House.

[Moonhawk]

If fraud was the real reason people were against vote by mail, then I would expect those people to be championing some of the other "more safe" alternatives to make sure everyone got their chance to vote:

- more polling places

-federal holiday

- guaranteed time off to vote

- take home ballots you can drop off with verification

And I'm sure other solutions that would allow everyone to exercise their right to vote.

If you don't like a solution, champion another one. Not just "lip service", really make it happen. That's what I would expect to see from all of the pundits and politicians that are whipping up fraud concerns about vote by mail, if their concern was genuine.

Unfortunately my expectations are not met.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Well, the person I was talking about who was mad about mail-in noted that the envelope has voter affiliation printed directly ON it. I do think that’s dumb and don’t know why it is necessary. This person was saying, “maybe the postal worker looks at that and says, ‘oh, look! A vote by a ————-! Guess I’ll just put this through the shredder...” I do think they have a point; however, considering all the important stuff that goes through our post office, I can’t see what’s so sacrosanct about a voting ballot.

In my state you can also drop off your ballot in locked boxes at many of the same locations that would normally be polling places (schools, libraries, etc.), the only difference is that you don't have to wait in line or take time off work, you can just can drop it off any time that's convenient. And you can track your ballot online to know when it was received and counted.

People here are also automatically registered to vote (if they are citizens) when they get a driver's license or state ID card, unless they choose to opt out. If the person is under 18 at the time, they will be automatically registered on their 18th birthday and get a voter registration card in the mail.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Corraleno

[Wheres Toto]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Well, the person I was talking about who was mad about mail-in noted that the envelope has voter affiliation printed directly ON it. I do think that’s dumb and don’t know why it is necessary. This person was saying, “maybe the postal worker looks at that and says, ‘oh, look! A vote by a ————-! Guess I’ll just put this through the shredder...” I do think they have a point; however, considering all the important stuff that goes through our post office, I can’t see what’s so sacrosanct about a voting ballot.

PS. The person I’m talking about did ultimately vote after I nagged them. 

This is the kind of concerns I'm seeing.   

34 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Well, that would be a huge federal crime, so there is that..not sure a random postal worker wants to risk jail time over that. But can people with concerns drop them off at the supervisor of elections office in their county, if they don't trust the mail?

I think that's a good idea - options.  I like the idea some mentioned about a specific box at town halls or other local government facilities where ballots can be dropped off.   

[Jean in Newcastle]

41 minutes ago, bolt. said:

(I'm not an American, but,) do you all think it would be possible to have a few poling places available for people who prefer to cast their votes in person? It would be like a reversal of, "Most people vote in person, but you can mail it in if you need to." -- towards, instead, "Most people vote by mail, but you can vote in person if it's important to you." Would that solve the objections and get everybody voting?

This is how it works in my state 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

(I'm not an American, but,) do you all think it would be possible to have a few poling places available for people who prefer to cast their votes in person? It would be like a reversal of, "Most people vote in person, but you can mail it in if you need to." -- towards, instead, "Most people vote by mail, but you can vote in person if it's important to you." Would that solve the objections and get everybody voting?

Normally, we do have that. But making an exception during a pandemic seems utterly sensible to me. My voting place is a senior center, and it is most often older citizens who help. 

I do, personally, think it should be, “most people vote by mail (or you can drop in the lockbox), but we have some in person voting if you prefer. 

This year, I know there was a concern that polling assistants would not volunteer. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

In my state you can also drop off your ballot in locked boxes at many of the same locations that would normally be polling places (schools, libraries, etc.), the only difference is that you don't have to wait in line or take time off work, you can just can drop it off any time that's convenient. And you can track your ballot online to know when it was received and counted.

People here are also automatically registered to vote (if they are citizens) when they get a driver's license or state ID card, unless they choose to opt out. If the person is under 18 at the time, they will be automatically registered on their 18th birthday and get a voter registration card in the mail.

Yeah, that’s what I availed myself of and think makes the most sense. Is that how yours normally is? Or just for COVID? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Well, that would be a huge federal crime, so there is that..not sure a random postal worker wants to risk jail time over that. But can people with concerns drop them off at the supervisor of elections office in their county, if they don't trust the mail?

Yes, they can, which is one reason I was annoyed with the person. I said, “if you distrust the mail so much, drive by the senior center and drop your ballot into the dropbox.” Ultimately, though, the person mailed it at the post office because they didn’t want to drive all the way over there. 

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yeah, that’s what I availed myself of and think makes the most sense. Is that how yours normally is? Or just for COVID? 

That's how it always is. I think it's a great system, especially since we get the big thick voter information booklet at the same time as the ballot, so you can really study all the issues and candidate statements, and fill out the ballot as you go, rather than trying to remember which of the zillion candidates for the minor offices you wanted to vote for once you are in the booth. We generally have very high voter turnout (top 3 in the last midterm election, I believe) and 90% of eligible voters are registered. Zero evidence of fraud.

[gardenmom5]

25 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yes, they can, which is one reason I was annoyed with the person. I said, “if you distrust the mail so much, drive by the senior center and drop your ballot into the dropbox.” Ultimately, though, the person mailed it at the post office because they didn’t want to drive all the way over there. 

well, I live in a city.  We have multiple dropboxes spread around for those who don't want to mail it.  And if someone really wants to - they can drive it down to the county election building.  which I did once, on election day - to get another ballot for my mother.  oh, my.  and it was pouring.  absolutely pouring rain.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That's how it always is. I think it's a great system, especially since we get the big thick voter information booklet at the same time as the ballot, so you can really study all the issues and candidate statements, and fill out the ballot as you go, rather than trying to remember which of the zillion candidates for the minor offices you wanted to vote for once you are in the booth. We generally have very high voter turnout (top 3 in the last midterm election, I believe) and 90% of eligible voters are registered. Zero evidence of fraud.

That’s so great, to have candidate information. I wish we had that. I have been using on-line candidate profiling sites (Vote Smart is one of them) and that does help a lot when you have no idea who these county council candidates or whatever are. But it would be great if we could get a booklet with that info. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I have been a permanently by mail voter registrant for years.

This is because I never know for sure whether I will be able to get to my neighborhood polling place by 8PM on election day, so it's awfully convenient to be able to just take my ballot to whatever polling place is local and drop it off.  I don't even have to wait in line.  Last time I did this at the library, and in 2016 I walked to a polling place right at Santa Clara University, and then could go to the Mission and pray afterwards, which I badly needed to do.  I love not having to worry so much about whether or not I will get to vote.

I never mail it in.  I want to know all the last minute stuff before I fully commit myself.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

That’s so great, to have candidate information. I wish we had that. I have been using on-line candidate profiling sites (Vote Smart is one of them) and that does help a lot when you have no idea who these county council candidates or whatever are. But it would be great if we could get a booklet with that info. 

the one thing I wish we had - was information about the judges.  we only get their own prepared statement - which generally are very sanitized.

we have a friend who is a barrister, and he knew the judges.  We have many values in common, and he would be able to share his knowledge of the judges that isn't made public.  but, he retired to a different state.  Alas. So, it's back to reading between the lines and finding out what we can.

[lmrich]

Loved being in the room as my youngest voted for the first time. She looked up each candidate and asked us questions. I think she took way more time to consider each vote than she would have if she had just popped into the voting booth.... she was sad she did not get the sticker!

 

[Frances]

9 hours ago, JennyD said:

Wow, that is some effective disinformation.

 

This. Unfortunately some leaders have mastered and daily make use of the psychological phenomenon of “if you tell a lie enough times, people start to believe it.“

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Where's Toto? said:

I saw some people who are definitely not supporters of the one screaming about mail=in voter fraud, say they were worried about mail-in ballots disappearing.  I guess the concerns depend on who is gathering/counting the ballots once they are received?   What kind of safeties are in place to avoid "lost" ballots.

Oregon is a leader in vote by mail. Our last Secretary of State, a very conservative Republican who unfortunately died while in office, often vouched for the security of vote by mail. Signatures are verified by workers (my husband and I have each had to submit new signature cards once before our ballot was counted because our envelope signature didn’t match those on file) and then machine read. We have drop boxes or you can mail them postage free.

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Ballot harvesting isn’t even a legal term, and many states allow ballot collection with different parameters. The Heritage Foundation found only 107 illegal cases the past few decades, the biggest being the 2018 Republican fraud in Carolina. Voter suppression causes much, much more damage than any proven cases of voter fraud. Fact.

We know why certain people don’t want vote by mail. We all know. We just can’t say it here.

So much this. And personally I find the constant unrelenting attacks on the media and all of the insinuation of voter fraud to be frightening threats to our democracy. We used to be world leaders and examples for freedom of the press and trust in elections. Now these are just two more areas where we are moving away from democracy and closer to countries run by authoritarian leaders. 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Ali in OR said:

The five states that have vote by mail have practically no fraud. It's a made-up, I'm-trying-to-scare-you concern. There are safeguards in place to prevent fraud. The reason there is sudden concern about vote-by-mail is because it doesn't fit in as well with plans for voter-suppression. Right now I can make sure you don't have many polling locations in your less-desired community, or make sure election day is always on a work day, or purge your name off the list and you don't find out until election day. Vote by mail goes better with a philosophy that everybody votes and we don't put up roadblocks to make it more difficult for some.

And combine that with automatic voter registration when you get or renew a driver’s license as we also do in Oregon, and you can see an example of a state doing everything possible to allow people to exercise their right to vote.

[Acadie]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

the one thing I wish we had - was information about the judges.  we only get their own prepared statement - which generally are very sanitized.

we have a friend who is a barrister, and he knew the judges.  We have many values in common, and he would be able to share his knowledge of the judges that isn't made public.  but, he retired to a different state.  Alas. So, it's back to reading between the lines and finding out what we can.

 

I especially like voting by mail when it comes to judges. In my county there's a website where all the bar associations rate judges (the City Bar, the County Criminal Defense Lawyers' Association, the State Women's Bar Association, the Asian American Bar Association, and the Black Lawyers'/Civil Rights Bar Association). Our two major newspapers also either endorse or not, and run editorials explaining their choices. It's amazing how often the ratings coincide, and when they don't, you can choose the candidate most aligned with your values.

[Spy Car]

I will find it very strange to vote by mail. Going in person is a big deal for me. I've never missed voting in an election since I got the vote at 18.

I held my young infant's hand as we inked a historic ballot in 2008. And have taken him since. It feels like a sacred duty to me to show up.

I will still vote by mail (of course) but it will be weird.

Bill

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

the one thing I wish we had - was information about the judges.  we only get their own prepared statement - which generally are very sanitized.

we have a friend who is a barrister, and he knew the judges.  We have many values in common, and he would be able to share his knowledge of the judges that isn't made public.  but, he retired to a different state.  Alas. So, it's back to reading between the lines and finding out what we can.

I ask my lawyer friends 🙂

2 hours ago, lmrich said:

Loved being in the room as my youngest voted for the first time. She looked up each candidate and asked us questions. I think she took way more time to consider each vote than she would have if she had just popped into the voting booth.... she was sad she did not get the sticker!

 

Just for future reference if people do vote in person, I always mark up my sample ballot at home, talk things over with DH, etc, then take that with me when I go to vote so I have a "cheat sheet".