How would you feel? (kid issue)

[BakersDozen]

Quote

why would you even consider not telling your dh?  I'm confused on that point.

I will tell my dh...but I don't want to. He came home and did nothing but serve his family, same as he does every night. He made dinner, played with kids, went outside to do yard work, etc. and will continue to serve until long after the kids go to bed. He was up until after midnight last night finalizing details for the trip he will make with the girls - a trip he is willing to make yet should not have had to. So the idea of telling this man that his son ended up going on the trip after all...I'm crying just knowing I have to tell him. My sense of wanting to protect my dh is kicking in, I guess, at least for a little while. But yes, I'll tell him.

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

OP, I am struck by the language you use to describe your son...and in describing your neighbor.

I would have problems with his behavior, but you seem to note serious flaws in his character.

 

Well yeah. Humans have serious character flaws. 🤷‍♀️ There’s not much history of that being parented out of kids.  We have Jesus and Mary on the very short list. Sure we try to reduce how bad the human tendency is, but it’s there all the same. Even the saints had personal character flaws to work on. I don’t know about any of you but I for sure have serious character flaws and so does everyone I know.  

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Well I am not sure that "hey, I am out running errands, I am gonna stop by your Wells Fargo branch (or whatever) so that you can get that cash out of your ATM so I can pay this CC bill." is so much more dramatic that what the OP actually has going on right now.

But also, I already said a few posts ago that I am not talking about an "all the time" sort thing.  Even with what else she has posted, I haven't gotten the impression that the OP's son is regularly stiffing his parents on money they have fronted him.  If that's the case, that this thing is happening "all the time" then yes, I agree with you.

 

And in general, just so that my position is clear, I do think her son is being an immature butt and he IS in the wrong.  

 

I get that. And sure it’s not like I don’t ever do a nice thing for my kids that I shouldn’t really need to, such is love and friendship. No big deal.  But her language implies he has a tendency to act this way about things. Which sucks but alas some folks we love can be this way. Hopefully they don’t stay that way forever.  I don’t think she’s crying bc there is drama.  There really isn’t any. He left them hanging. They are hurt but not terribly surprised. Dad decided he still wanted the girls to have this trip so he decided to do it instead. No drama. Just sucks. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Murphy101

[Storygirl]

I'm sorry that everything went awry, and that you are hurt.

I think it's unusual for a 22 year old to devote that much time and money to traveling with younger siblings. I noticed from your signature that you have many children, and often the oldest takes more responsibility than is typical in large families. While that has been okay with him in the past, perhaps now that he is working on establishing his independence, it doesn't sit as well with him. He definitely handled things poorly. I think that I would no longer expect or trust him to travel with the younger children. You say that he enjoys spending time with them, and that is fine, but he can do that while they are in town together and does not need to involve taking trips.

Personally, I would not put someone who resists taking advice and direction from me in charge of some of my children on a long cross-country trip. I realize that you have done it before, but now that it's obvious that unexpected things can go wrong, I would not do it again.

You say that you know that he must have the money, but you also mention that he is not saving and is spending unwisely. Perhaps he does not have a great sense about what he should be doing with his income. I think it would be better for his long-term success for you to not count on him to spend any big chunks of money on anyone but himself, while he is a young adult. He can (and should, in my opinion) be saving for a house, a future family, a college degree, and his retirement instead.

So I'm sorry that you are hurt. But the situation may signal that it's time to change the expectations and dynamics. You could let him know that you want him to be saving money instead of spending it, and that therefore, big trips like this will not be expected of him and will not be accepted from him as gifts. Then arrange for a fun in-town activity, so that the family can spend time together in a different way.

I know this would not change your hurt feelings. But it may keep this kind of problem from repeating itself. I would be really hurt by the fact that he took the trip by himself. But if you can work your way past that, perhaps you can see it as a nonverbal sign from him that he is wanting to launch out on his own now. It is a painful way for him to let you know that.

[Shoeless]

I'm wondering if he didn't actually have his share of the money to send you and that is why he kept stalling and making excuses. Maybe he "paid" for his solo trip with a credit card. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

I will tell my dh...but I don't want to. He came home and did nothing but serve his family, same as he does every night. He made dinner, played with kids, went outside to do yard work, etc. and will continue to serve until long after the kids go to bed. He was up until after midnight last night finalizing details for the trip he will make with the girls - a trip he is willing to make yet should not have had to. So the idea of telling this man that his son ended up going on the trip after all...I'm crying just knowing I have to tell him. My sense of wanting to protect my dh is kicking in, I guess, at least for a little while. But yes, I'll tell him.

I'm sorry that you are struggling so much with this.  I am afraid that I don't really understand why you would feel like you had to shield an adult male from what really is just a case of a young man being a bit on the immature side. 

[Murphy101]

7 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I think it's unusual for a 22 year old to devote that much time and money to traveling with younger siblings. I noticed from your signature that you have many children, and often the oldest takes more responsibility than is typical in large families. While that has been okay with him in the past, perhaps now that he is working on establishing his independence, it doesn't sit as well with him. He definitely handled things poorly. I think that I would no longer expect or trust him to travel with the younger children. You say that he enjoys spending time with them, and that is fine, but he can do that while they are in town together and does not need to involve taking trips.

I mostly agree with this.  By reading online and listening to other people irl, I know I’m blessed that my older kids are close to each other and very interested in staying close to in house younger siblings even though they don’t live together.  They are very aware that they have to put in a lot more effort to have a close relationship to their younger siblings because they aren’t growing up together with them. They call, text, come by to visit or pick up younger siblings for fun times together.  They’ve gone out of town a few times together. But nothing hat expensive or far or that long.  But if they can’t manage the cost, for whatever reason, then oh well I certainly understand that bc I can’t either.  If they acted like this about it, I wouldn’t okay the trip and frankly, my younger kids would be too hurt to want to go with them.  It’s repairable damage over time but I’d have a sit down talk with my older kid about this.  Or have dad or someone else have he conversation with him if he wouldn’t listen to me  

Personally, I would not put someone who resists taking advice and direction from me in charge of some of my children on a long cross-country trip. I realize that you have done it before, but now that it's obvious that unexpected things can go wrong, I would not do it again.

You say that you know that he must have the money, but you also mention that he is not saving and is spending unwisely. Perhaps he does not have a great sense about what he should be doing with his income. I think it would be better for his long-term success for you to not count on him to spend any big chunks of money on anyone but himself, while he is a young adult. He can (and should, in my opinion) be saving for a house, a future family, a college degree, and his retirement instead.

So I'm sorry that you are hurt. But the situation may signal that it's time to change the expectations and dynamics. You could let him know that you want him to be saving money instead of spending it, and that therefore, big trips like this will not be expected of him and will not be accepted from him as gifts. Then arrange for a fun in-town activity, so that the family can spend time together in a different way.

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Murphy101

[PrincessMommy]

I don't care how old he is, what he did to his sisters is unacceptable and I would call him out on it.  I would bring sister's along because he needs to apologize to them.   I'd have a frank talk about what kind of person he wants to be.  What kind of spouse does he want to be?  Things like this.  Yes, he's immature, but at 22 he needs to work on some character building.  

IOW- it's one thing to be a selfish jerk with your parents, but to treat younger siblings like that is mean spirited.  

[LucyStoner]

His behavior and going back on his agreement/disappointing his sisters and jerking around his parents are all not ok.  Whatever his issue, he owed everyone better and earlier communication.  

That said, like Farrar, I am having a hard time understanding this gift.  I don’t know any 22 year old bank employees who can honestly afford to give $1000+ birthday presents to their sibling. Entry level management at a bank just doesn’t pay enough to make that a financially prudent gift and I assume that’s the highest level a 22 year old could be at.  If my son suggested such a gift at that juncture in his life, I might have suggested a less expensive alternative instead if it were appropriate for me to do so.  Or else just bite my tongue hard and let him make his own terrible financial decisions in the hope he learned sooner rather than later. 

None of that makes his shitty behavior your fault though.  

Edited September 17, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Scarlett]

18 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

Our son really and truly does enjoy being with his sisters, which is why the decision he made is so very hurtful. He wasn't going on this trip as a chaperone (and was 100% willing/excited to do so last year). This was more a fun, let's get away kind of trip. They would have had a great time as they always do. Thinking on what we see in our ds we feel that he is one who allows pride to win over common sense. Even in conversation if I offer an idea/opinion he usually counters it even if his argument makes no sense. He just has to be right which means everyone else has to be wrong. So even if our request for money was right, we were "wrong" and he responded as he did. And then went on a trip anyway. And that's what has me in tears today.

To answer your question I would be very annoyed and yes very hurt.  I believe you that he does like spending time with his sisters.....it is derailing for people to assume that the real problem is he doesn’t want to hang out with his sisters .  The real problem is he ruined a trip for his sisters and he broke trust with his parents.  Those are not small things.  It does sound like he has a pride issue and did not like being told what to do——-which he could have avoided if he had actually just done what he agreed to without having to be told.  

Adult kids are difficult sometimes.  I am not in a position to offer advice . But I do want to say I feel bad for you and your husband.  

Edited September 17, 2019 by Scarlett
Did not mean to t/j

[Storygirl]

I know this is not the main point of your concern, OP, but I think that both you (meaning you and your husband) and your son should re-evaluate the way that you think about his spending. I've been trying to teach DD17 how to think wisely about finances, and I'm finding that my lessons are not exactly sinking in with her, so I'm attuned to seeing red flags with young adults and spending.

One of the things that I'm trying to impress upon DD is that just because money is in the bank does not mean that it is available to spend. In your son's situation, I really agree that someone with an entry-level low end salary should not consider spending $1000 on anything really, other than basic needs, such as transportation and living expenses. And I'm really sorry to say this, because I know you are already in a low place emotionally, but I don't think the parents of a young person in that financial position should be encouraging or expecting large expenditures like that either. I think you can give him guidance about his spending habits, but I think it's worrisome that you are concerned with him spending $20 to go to the movies but think it's okay for him to pay a huge sum to pay his sister's vacation expenses. It doesn't add up to me. If you are involved in his finances at his age, I think it should only be to encourage him to save. And then you could help him budget, if he asks for your help. There should be no expectation for him to use his hard-earned money for his extended family; he needs to be using it to start a good foundation for his own long-term financial life. If he chooses to spend it on a trip for himself, as he has, I would consider that an unwise decision, yet one that he is entitled to make, given that he earned that money for himself.

One of the things I am trying to teach DD is to use her hourly rate of pay to help her decide whether something is a worthwhile expenditure. I imagine it must require WEEKS of work for your son to pay for that kind of gift to his sister. I don't think that anyone, much less a sibling, should be dedicating that portion of their wages toward gifts.

I know money advice is not what you asked for, but I really think it's part of the overall problem and is worth all parties involved to do some rethinking and prioritizing.

[Farrar]

15 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

OP, I am struck by the language you use to describe your son...and in describing your neighbor.

I would have problems with his behavior, but you seem to note serious flaws in his character.

Yeah, I guess that's part of what rubs me the wrong way. I feel like I'm missing something all the way around. He screwed up - especially in how he treated his sisters. In my family, these types of promises were often made and gone back on and it feels cruddy. But on the other hand, the expectations for his behavior and monetary situation seem really off. And that seems to be leading to a belief that this wasn't him messing up, but that he's got fundamental issues. I guess I don't see that necessarily. Obviously, we're not there. And I totally agree that his behavior sounds petty toward you and unkind to say the least toward his sisters. But... when you set up the expectation that paying for a big trip and playing chaperone on trips in general is something that a 22 yo should be doing in the first place, I think that's going to create an issue as well and skew a person's view of what's a mistake vs. what's a deeper flaw or issue.

[LucyStoner]

10 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

One of the things that I'm trying to impress upon DD is that just because money is in the bank does not mean that it is available to spend. 

 

This is a critically important lesson.  

My 16 year old son has quite a bit saved up but he has short and long term plans for the money as part of a budget that we work with him on.  

At 22, a good gift for a 16 year old sister is taking them out to the movies or buying them a book.  

[BarbecueMom]

I only have one adult sibling, who is 8 years younger than me, but we have both flaked out and failed each other at times.  I'm just realizing at age 36 (and I think he's realizing, too) that the root cause of this is that we don't want to be as close as our parent wants us to be, or tries to make us be.  We like each other and get along well, but we are not friend-siblings and are okay with that.  We are not going to call or text each other out of the blue and chat.  We aren't going to ask each other for favors except in real emergencies.  He's my mechanic, but I take the cars in through the front desk at the shop and use a different tech if necessary.  We aren't inviting each other to non-holiday barbecues, and we certainly don't vacation together.  We just have very separate lives, and have evolved into this in a way that I would never have been able to see or articulate at age 22, because at that point we could have grown closer.  That didn't happen though.

This summer, DH sprained his ankle and couldn't mow the yard.  My mom asked my brother if he would come over and mow it for us and he said, "Sure!"  He never showed up.  I knew that would happen (and actually had already mowed the yard myself), because a) *I* didn't ask, and b) we've been through this before where he agrees to something after being caught off guard by the request and feels like he can't say no.  It hurts my mom's feelings that we don't help each other and bail each other out and plan to see each other often the way she does with her sibling.  But that's not the where we are right now, and I refuse to let that stuff cause problems.  I'm sure someday we'll come up clutch for the other when needed, but I don't want the pressure to be "close" to damage the cordial-with-distance sibling relationship we do have.  Maybe we can meet up weekly at McDonald's for coffee and biscuits in our 80's.

It doesn't excuse his behavior and flipping out on you, but it's possible this is the start of the process of him and his sisters growing apart for now, and he's having a hard time seeing it and putting words to it.  I don't know how I'll feel about this watching my own sons grow up and hash out their relationships as adults, but I know it's really, really hard on my mom to see our lives not intersect the way she always hoped and expected they would.  I think she worries that someday she'll be gone and my brother and I will text each other on Christmas and that will be it.   Maybe?  Who knows?  Even now, I'm not sure I'd ever say to her what I just typed out above.

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by BarbecueMom

[Annie G]

How would I feel? Bad for the girl who didn’t get her birthday trip. (The tag along wasn’t part of the gift so I doubt she’s as emotionally upset about it) And probably a little bad that I encouraged such a large gift. Just because he spends money on burgers and movies doesn’t mean that he should be encouraged to spend so much on a sibling gift. There are lots of ways to bond and spend time w siblings without being overly extravagant.  No, you cannot dictate how he spends his money, so if he wanted to gift the trip, I agree that you shouldn’t micromanage his choices. But that line between helping him learn to budget and save and micromanaging is so difficult because it’s different for every kid.  

I would also be irritated that he didn’t pay as agreed without you badgering him. (That’s something that really irritates me- ds is on our phone plan and sometimes he doesn’t pay me until I ask for it. Yeah, that’s not how responsible people handle their bills, son. )

And if he was having second thoughts or couldn’t afford to pay for dd or whatever, I’d be annoyed he didn’t speak up. And then I’d be super annoyed that he took the trip alone.  

I’m not trying to make you feel bad...just answering the question in the post title- ‘how would you feel’.  

Hope you can tell dh without hesitation. It’s a reflection on your ds, not your parenting. You have to remember that. Our adult kids’ choices are just that- their choices. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

My 22 year old son has great qualities much of  the time and is fairly good at this adulting thing but he’s not perfect. And the trouble spots are often in communication and with finances. I just tell him,  “Next time I would appreciate it if you told me if you were having second thoughts about a trip. “ (or whatever). But given the intensity of your emotional reaction he might have been scared to do that. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Jean in Newcastle
Typo

[Scarlett]

There is nothing  to indicate a) ds22 changed his mind about taking his sisters b) the parents encouraged him to spend a lot of money on his sister.  In fact,  they paid a generous amount toward a trip that he had offered to pay for himself.  

He obviously had the money because he went alone.

i don’t know why we can’t take BD at her word that he tends to get angry and prideful when he feels he is being told what to do.  The parents obviously feel it is a character issue and they have known him for 22 years.  

Of course ‘his story’ might be different.  Of course!  He isn’t here asking for kindness and support.  BD is.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Scarlett said:

There is nothing  to indicate a) ds22 changed his mind about taking his sisters b) the parents encouraged him to spend a lot of money on his sister.  In fact,  they paid a generous amount toward a trip that he had offered to pay for himself.  

He obviously had the money because he went alone.

i don’t know why we can’t take BD at her word that he tends to get angry and prideful when he feels he is being told what to do.  The parents obviously feel it is a character issue and they have known him for 22 years.  

Of course ‘his story’ might be different.  Of course!  He isn’t here asking for kindness and support.  BD is.  

At 22, I don’t try to parent my son and shape his character. I communicate clearly what I am willing to do. I answer questions when he has them. But my role has shifted to that of an adult mentor. I don’t know BD’s belifs, but my own belief is that God will now be primarily shaping his character, not me. (At mid-fifties, God is still shaping my character as we are never quite done in our growth.). 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

At 22, I don’t try to parent my son and shape his character. I communicate clearly what I am willing to do. I answer questions when he has them. But my role has shifted to that of an adult mentor. I don’t know BD’s belifs, but my own belief is that God will now be primarily shaping his character, not me. (At mid-fifties, God is still shaping my character as we are never quite done in our growth.). 

Agreed.  But that doesn’t mean his character isn’t evident to BD or that she and her family is not affected by it.  If they speak to him they do......I know some parents would do that and others would not.  

[LucyStoner]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

There is nothing  to indicate a) ds22 changed his mind about taking his sisters b) the parents encouraged him to spend a lot of money on his sister.  In fact,  they paid a generous amount toward a trip that he had offered to pay for himself.  

He obviously had the money because he went alone.

i don’t know why we can’t take BD at her word that he tends to get angry and prideful when he feels he is being told what to do.  The parents obviously feel it is a character issue and they have known him for 22 years.  

 

I don’t think anyone is excusing the 22yos behavior.  He didn’t communicate well.  He cancelled on his sisters and left them hanging. He’s acting like a jerk in a lot of ways from the sound of it.  

Still, there’s something odd about the gift to me and others. That’s a lot of money for an average 22 year old to spend on a gift for a sibling.  

1. If my young adult son proposed a very expensive gift like this trip for his little sibing, I would compliment his generosity but try to guide him in a more affordable direction if it were possible to do so or I would step back and let him make what I saw as a financial mistake, hoping he learned from it.  

I would not make the trip larger by asking him to include another family member or endorse the spending by paying for it upfront myself.  

2. Having the money =\= being able to afford something.  Unless he’s got a trust fund or a much better job than typical for a 22 year old, that’s just a lot to drop on a birthday.  

 

[moonflower]

I'm hearing the complaint that he's willing to spend other people's money but hoards his own (as a character flaw).  A. This is a very Dave Ramsey character trait, possibly if you listen to him that's where DS22 got it and 2. letting your 22 yo non-degreed son pay for your minor daughter's travel and lodging costs for a major trip is nothing if not willingness to spend other people's money.

He did act in a jerky manner.  

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

To answer your question I would be very annoyed and yes very hurt.  I believe you that he does like spending time with his sisters.....it is derailing for people to assume that the real problem is he doesn’t want to hang out with his sisters .  The real problem is he ruined a trip for his sisters and he broke trust with his parents.  Those are not small things.  It does sound like he has a pride issue and did not like being told what to do——-which he could have avoided if he had actually just done what he agreed to without having to be told.  

Adult kids are difficult sometimes.  I am not in a position to offer advice because I have failed as a mother.  But I do want to say I feel bad for you and your husband.  

 

Totally off the topic of this thread, but...

Scarlett, please don’t say you have failed as a mother!!! Even if your son made a terrible, awful, worst-possible choice in his life, it’s still ONE really bad decision. He’s young and immature and he is so strong willed that when he decided to get rebellious, he had to do it in a very big way. But that doesn’t make you a bad mother and it doesn’t mean you have failed. 

You have always done everything within your power to be a good mother and a good role model for your son. But you can’t control his personality, so please try to give yourself some grace. Also, whatever happened, I’m sure he still loves you in his heart even if he’s angry right now, so please don’t lose hope!

You're a good mom, Scarlett, even if your son has strayed from your morals right now. 

[SKL]

Does she mean "winner" sarcastically?  My mom uses that all the time to mean loser.  (Not that I think your friend should call your son a loser either.)

Assuming she meant it positively, she is probably trying to help you feel better about something you are very disappointed about.  I tend to do that.  "Oh well, but look at the bright side."

Your son will have to learn the hard way about life, because he apparently isn't disposed to learn the easy way.  Some people just aren't.  It will be OK.

What I would tell my friends/relatives about this:  don't ever put your trust in him like that again.  Hurt me once, shame on you; hurt me twice, shame on me.

Thankfully this was just a recreational trip he screwed up.  A relatively cheap lesson if you think about it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 

Adult kids are difficult sometimes.  I am not in a position to offer advice because I have failed as a mother.  But I do want to say I feel bad for you and your husband.  

 

That is so much of a final statement as to be a cop out. What can people do when they've failed someone who is still alive and less than 25 years old? Apologize for your part of the conflict. Admit that parents can make mistakes, too. Make amends. 

[SKL]

After thinking about this some more, I am wondering if the young man was already quite nervous about other aspects of the trip and the "pay now or we will cancel" was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back.

If it had happened very recently, I would wait for a calm moment and ask him.  It might be enlightening.  What he did was still wrong, but getting him to talk about why he lost it (over a reasonable request) might help him to think about better ways to handle that overwhelmed feeling.

[SKL]

Oh - and I have a relative who cancels on us all the time.  I have taught my kids to not count on her; if she shows up, it's a bonus.  I also have another relative who blows up for irrational reasons and acts a fraction of her age.  Thankfully these are two different relatives who have other redeeming qualities.

[Frances]

18 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 

That is so much of a final statement as to be a cop out. What can people do when they've failed someone who is still alive and less than 25 years old? Apologize for your part of the conflict. Admit that parents can make mistakes, too. Make amends. 

While I generally agree with your sentiment that both sides here need to apologize for their part , admit mistakes, and make amends, unless I’m misunderstanding (and that’s entirely possible given the nature of that thread), the wedding just happened on Friday. So I’m assuming very strong feelings are still being experienced by everyone involved. Everyone needs time to cool down in their separate corners before attempting reconciliation, otherwise I think more hurtful things are likely to be said or done. I would hope Scarlett will not feel the same way about failing after some time and distance.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Frances

[Storygirl]

I'm wondering, also, if it's possible that the son could not get a refund for his airline ticket. Or was facing a large charge to change the ticket. Or would have to use it soon for another trip, which he does not have plans for. And so he thought that he should use the ticket instead of letting it go to waste. Especially if he already had the vacation time approved from work. He may have been trying to rescue some good from a situation that had turned sour.

That's not to say that he handled things well. Just that there may be things related to his decision that were logical and were not communicated to the rest of the family.

[SereneHome]

I had to stop reading somewhere in the middle of the first page. It sounds like you REALLY  don't like your son and it was hard for me to keep reading.  You called him stubborn and opportunistic. You also sound very judgy about how he spends his own money. You didn't say one nice thing about him.  There are always three sides to every story and while he might not have behaved in the best way, he is still only 22, but you, as an adult, seems to be fuming with soooo much anger towards him.....

If my parents thought that poorly of me, I would very much try to stay away from them.

Edited September 17, 2019 by SereneHome

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I had to stop reading somewhere in the middle of the first page. It sounds like you REALLY  don't like your son and it was hard for me to keep reading.  You called him stubborn and opportunistic. You also sound very judgy about how he spends his own money. You didn't say one nice thing about him.  There are always three sides to every story and while he might not have behaved in the best way, he is still only 22, but you, as an adult, seems to be fuming with soooo much anger towards him.....

If my parents thought that poorly of me, I would very much try to stay away from them.

Maybe you should have kept reading. She did say nice things. She says he is a great older brother and enjoys doing things for his sisters and that he is very close to them. 

The  post was  about something  he did that greatly upset her and that she sees as an ongoing pattern in him.  And she is  still really upset. Give her a break. 

Good grief. 

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe you should have kept reading. She did say nice things. She says he is a great older brother and enjoys doing things for his sisters and that he is very close to them. 

The  post was  about something  he did that greatly upset her and that she sees as an ongoing pattern in him.  And she is  still really upset. Give her a break. 

Good grief. 

May be....

but once she called him opportunistic,  I just didn't want to anymore.  I will stop reading this thread completely now.

[Paige]

Did you warn him that you'd cancel the AirBnB if he didn't give you the funds by a certain date? If feels kind of jerky and passive aggressive to just spring that on him without warning. I wouldn't do that to other adults. He may not have been able to rebook a comparable place for the same price and I can see how an immature young adult could be a little freaked out, insulted, and impulsive. 

I'm not excusing his behavior. He was definitely rude in the way he handled it, but I see some issues going on both sides if I'm reading this correctly.

[SKL]

I do agree that telling him at the last minute that he has nearly no time to save the trip would be unhelpful.  It would not promote clear thinking and planning.

I did assume it was not a last minute surprise though.  And even if it was - that is not something that can be un-done.  Depending on the facts, an apology from OP/DH may be appropriate.

Edited September 17, 2019 by SKL

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 

That is so much of a final statement as to be a cop out. What can people do when they've failed someone who is still alive and less than 25 years old? Apologize for your part of the conflict. Admit that parents can make mistakes, too. Make amends. 

 

She didn’t say there was nothing to do. She said she didn’t fee she could give advice bc she feels she didn’t do it right herself. 

And sometimes you can’t make amends. Sometimes you just have to move on and try to do better. 

[Corraleno]

56 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I had to stop reading somewhere in the middle of the first page. It sounds like you REALLY  don't like your son and it was hard for me to keep reading.  You called him stubborn and opportunistic. You also sound very judgy about how he spends his own money. You didn't say one nice thing about him.  There are always three sides to every story and while he might not have behaved in the best way, he is still only 22, but you, as an adult, seems to be fuming with soooo much anger towards him.....

If my parents thought that poorly of me, I would very much try to stay away from them.

This really bothered me, too.

OP, you have referred to your son as prideful, stubborn, opportunistic, disrespectful, ungenerous, lacking any humility or remorse, and a person who cares only for himself. If you want to maintain any kind of relationship with this child, I would urge you to try to reframe those feelings in terms of (immature but changeable) behavior instead of seeing them as evidence of a failed moral character that is integral to who he is. He's only 22! Many many young adults are rash and self-centered and immature at that age, but they do eventually grow up. If you make him believe that his own parents think he is, by nature, just a terrible, selfish, opportunistic person, then you may not have much of a relationship left by the time he does grow out of it.

I'm sorry he hurt your feelings and disappointed his sisters. I'm also sorry his mother feels such anger and disdain towards him.

[Murphy101]

OP. For clarity. 

How did your son pitch this idea to you? Did he suggest it from the start? What did he agree to at the start?

Who broached the topic of changing those original plans?  How was it brought up? How was that received? Was there equal enthusiasm? Or did he hesitate?

When the plans were changed, did you state up front that you needed his portion by X date? (I would have given a date several week earlier than I actually needed to allow wiggle room, but I wouldn’t have shared that fact.)  Did you state exactly why you needed it by then and what the results would be if you didn’t get it by then?  

Did you discuss if this fit his budgetary needs long term and let him know you would understand if he needed to plan a more fiscally prudent trip?

All of this info would create a better picture to base opinion and future encounters. 

[hshibley]

I have adult children in their 20’s and younger children still at home. If the older kids want to take a younger sibling on a trip they do. They make all the arrangements. My oldest 2 dd took my youngest dd to Disney this summer. They made all the arrangements. We had nothing to do with the trip at all. 

I would suggest that you put this behind you. In the future if your son wants to take a trip with some of his siblings let him invite the siblings he wants to come along and make the arrangements on his own. He doesn’t have to take all of his siblings with him if he doesn’t want too. I think that forcing the younger sister to be included on the trip was the first mistake and probably why the trip fell apart. 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, hshibley said:

I have adult children in their 20’s and younger children still at home. If the older kids want to take a younger sibling on a trip they do. They make all the arrangements. My oldest 2 dd took my youngest dd to Disney this summer. They made all the arrangements. We had nothing to do with the trip at all. 

I would suggest that you put this behind you. In the future if your son wants to take a trip with some of his siblings let him invite the siblings he wants to come along and make the arrangements on his own. He doesn’t have to take all of his siblings with him if he doesn’t want too. I think that forcing the younger sister to be included on the trip was the first mistake and probably why the trip fell apart. 

No where does it say they forced him to add the second sister. 

[fairfarmhand]

I’m gonna just say, many of us have older teens/young adult children who do some really awful things to us and their siblings. I have had similar thoughts about my dd. When adults behave badly whether or not they’re our kids we have grumpy thoughts toward them. We get over it. It doesn’t necessarily characterize the full relationship when our kids character flaws hurt us and we say “that was rotten. What a jerk.” 

[Scarlett]

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

I’m gonna just say, many of us have older teens/young adult children who do some really awful things to us and their siblings. I have had similar thoughts about my dd. When adults behave badly whether or not they’re our kids we have grumpy thoughts toward them. We get over it. It doesn’t necessarily characterize the full relationship when our kids character flaws hurt us and we say “that was rotten. What a jerk.” 

Exactly . Also we can acknowledge a character flaw and expect  with some guidance and maturity they will change. 

For some reason some here act like once the word character is mentioned we have forever condemned them. 

[Selkie]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This really bothered me, too.

OP, you have referred to your son as prideful, stubborn, opportunistic, disrespectful, ungenerous, lacking any humility or remorse, and a person who cares only for himself. If you want to maintain any kind of relationship with this child, I would urge you to try to reframe those feelings in terms of (immature but changeable) behavior instead of seeing them as evidence of a failed moral character that is integral to who he is. He's only 22! Many many young adults are rash and self-centered and immature at that age, but they do eventually grow up. If you make him believe that his own parents think he is, by nature, just a terrible, selfish, opportunistic person, then you may not have much of a relationship left by the time he does grow out of it.

I'm sorry he hurt your feelings and disappointed his sisters. I'm also sorry his mother feels such anger and disdain towards him.

I totally agree.

IIRC from previous posts, OP seems to have contentious relationships with some of her other young adult kids and has spoken harshly about them, too.

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think perhaps one of the reasons that the OP was using such negative terminology is because she's really p!$$@d off at him about this, and justifiably so.  If this had been a good friend, or a guy she was dating, I suspect most of us would have advised to dump that friend/SO.  And, if this had been her DH, most posts probably would have been full of recommendations to see a marriage counselor.  And terminology like disrespectful, selfish, and opportunistic would totally be used to describe any other adult who did this to her that was not her own offspring.  

There's a difference between saying "I think my son behaved selfishly when he cancelled his sister's birthday trip" and saying that one's own child is a prideful, stubborn, opportunistic, ungenerous person who lacks any humility or remorse and cares only for himself. One says he behaved badly (which he certainly did) and the other says he is terrible human being. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Corraleno said:

There's a difference between saying "I think my son behaved selfishly when he cancelled his sister's birthday trip" and saying that one's own child is a prideful, stubborn, opportunistic, ungenerous person who lacks any humility or remorse and cares only for himself. One says he behaved badly (which he certainly did) and the other says he is terrible human being. 

Oh my word. Talk about picking on   her words. And showing no compassion for how upset she is. 

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Exactly . Also we can acknowledge a character flaw and expect  with some guidance and maturity they will change. 

For some reason some here act like once the word character is mentioned we have forever condemned them. 

OP went way beyond one incident to describe her son in a very unfavorable way.  Sure, he threw a temper tantrum and she is angry. But she comes off as having general animosity toward him.

And I see Correlano beat me to it.

[Murphy101]

I get that the OP isn’t farting maternal sunshine and rainbows about her son and as a society that’s not socially acceptable.  But let’s be real, sometimes adult kids are selfish, stubborn, lacking humility, not generous, rude, and generally disrespectful and fiscally irresponsible little turds. Because they are people. And some people are like that. One prays they aren’t always like that. One prays that with age they will do better. One loves them anyways regardless. But rephrasing reality doesn’t actually change reality.

If the OP is truly setting the example by treating or talking to him like scum - then I agree that’s not helpful or good mothering. But she doesn’t say she spoke to him in a hateful matter. She is venting here, among other grown moms.  I would not speak this way here bc I don’t post stuff I’d be upset if my family read it. But heck yeah, irl in private at 5 am over coffee or during a morning walk, sometimes myself or my friends walking with me have shared tears and cuss words and general adult problems dealing with character problems of those we love.  Because life isn’t all sweetness and sunshine. It’s brutal and hard and ugly too.   And then we go home, and we love those people as best we can.  

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I am curious what sorts of reactions people would expect if it was "I think my husband behaved selfishly when he cancelled our kid's birthday trip because he got irked off that I asked him to pay the CC bill....then he went on the trip all by himself and didn't tell our kid."

Would we expect anyone to type a sentence like that?

I think everyone would be ok with someone saying "my husband is being a selfish @$$hole because he cancelled our kids birthday trip when I asked him to pay the CC...........And then the SOB went all by himself!"

 

Pretty much. 

I’d have all the same questions to get a better picture but otherwise I wouldn’t bat an eye at that post. 

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I’m gonna just say, many of us have older teens/young adult children who do some really awful things to us and their siblings. I have had similar thoughts about my dd. When adults behave badly whether or not they’re our kids we have grumpy thoughts toward them. We get over it. It doesn’t necessarily characterize the full relationship when our kids character flaws hurt us and we say “that was rotten. What a jerk.” 

I have an adopted child who is... difficult to say the least. I have to try really really hard to make sure I frame things in terms of her behavior, not who she is — not just in the way I talk to her, but in the way I think about her, too. I don't believe that selfish, thoughtless, or even dishonest behaviors mean she is by nature a selfish, thoughtless, dishonest person. Its really really important to me to stop if I ever catch myself starting to think that way because I don't want that to colors my feelings towards her, and I want her to know that no matter what she does I will always love the person she is. Sometimes that is really f^&*ing HARD, but as her mother I believe I owe her that.

 

[moonflower]

 

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I am curious what sorts of reactions people would expect if it was "I think my husband behaved selfishly when he cancelled our kid's birthday trip because he got irked off that I asked him to pay the CC bill....then he went on the trip all by himself and didn't tell our kid."

Would we expect anyone to type a sentence like that?

I think everyone would be ok with someone saying "my husband is being a selfish @$$hole because he cancelled our kids birthday trip when I asked him to pay the CC...........And then the SOB went all by himself!"

 

That's not what she said, she said this: "This is a person who, if told to turn left, will turn right just to show that he can't be told what to do. He is prideful and stubborn as all get out yet his external locus of control makes him the victim. "  "But our son cares for no one but himself."

"The condition of his heart is not generous, I can assure you. Opportunistic, yes."

"He is one who shows zero humility or remorse. Ever."

"He is showing himself to be one who happily spends other people's money, hoards his own, yet laments that he has none to spend. "

"Thinking on what we see in our ds we feel that he is one who allows pride to win over common sense."

 

 

 

[moonflower]

And yes, the son is being poorly behaved about it in some ways - but it's not comparable to what a father owes his children.  If your adult brother says he'll take you on a trip for free, then somehow another sibling gets added to the trip, then he flakes out and ends up going by himself - annoying, but not the end of the world. He's an adult, he's not beholden to you, you're siblings.

If your dad does it, that hurts, because he's your dad.  

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I am curious what sorts of reactions people would expect if it was "I think my husband behaved selfishly when he cancelled our kid's birthday trip because he got irked off that I asked him to pay the CC bill....then he went on the trip all by himself and didn't tell our kid."

Would we expect anyone to type a sentence like that?

I think everyone would be ok with someone saying "my husband is being a selfish @$$hole because he cancelled our kids birthday trip when I asked him to pay the CC...........And then the SOB went all by himself!"

But she didn't just say he was a selfish ass for cancelling his sister's trip. She also expressed anger over how he spends his money (shouldn't be wasting it on $20 burgers and one movie a week, but dropping $1000 on his sister's bday present is fine), she's mad he didn't go to college, she's mad about how he interacts with his father, etc. She listed a LOT of negative character traits about this kid, some of which have nothing to do with this incident. It sounds like she really doesn't like — or respect — him very much, and I think that's sad. Maybe that's part of why he pushes back and behaves disrespectfully in return. 

[catz]

I don't disagree that sometimes people express themselves over the top and emotionally when they're mad.  

That said, I have a feeling that the 22 year old felt misunderstood and pressured or something by this trip.  Like something he mentioned in passing suddenly includes an extra sibling and I need to produce money right now.   I wouldn't encourage that kind of spending in a young adult especially on a sibling unless he was living independently and had 3-6 months of savings in place just in case and was otherwise financially responsible.   I doubt he woke up and decided to be a huge jerk and disappoint everyone.  I think it's an unusual situation made even more so by the fact that the parents were doing the booking.  I just wouldn't get into this situation with him again.  I suspect there were errors made on both sides of this.  

I have a hard time thinking really horribly about a young man who was willing to be a chaperone for 2 teen siblings for 6 weeks.  As a parent of 2 teens, taking them on the road for 6 weeks sounds really daunting.  LOL.  This kid is NOT a parent with many kids and it's not surprising he doesn't act like one.