How would you feel? (kid issue)

[Arctic Bunny]

20 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Certainly, if this was something that was some sort of on-going thing that was regularly causing problems, yeah.

Back in like Februrary, my mom placed our order for our freezer beef and pork.  My parents, my sister and I all split a large order.  As it's just one order, of course, one person collects the deposit and places the order, but we all pay the farmer directly at the time of pick up.  Anyway, the deposit was something like $300, so $100 per group, or something around there.  Certainly much less than the OP is talking about but still, mom paid the deposit so we could get the order in and I needed to get the money to her.  I live 2.5 hours away from my parents.  It should have been super simple to drop a check in the mail.  I just kept forgetting.  She came out here for an afternoon in March, reminded me to have the money for her....sure no problem, I will write a check.....both of us totally forgot.  April, my family was out there for Easter and a family birthday party.  Still totally forgot.  May, Mothers day, another visit, much teasing ahead of time, still we both totally forgot.

I am certainly not an irresponsible 41 yr old needing my mom to hold my hand.  Just that particular thing, it just kept falling out of my head.  Sometimes that happens.  

 

I am very glad my mom didn't threaten to cancel the order.  

 

Oh dear. I owe my dad’s gf $200 for tickets..... she hasn’t said a word. I am far from $22. Oy!

[catz]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

But, when an adult sibling tells a young/minor sibling, that he/she is going to take the younger sib somewhere, then flakes out, and then goes on his/her own, yes, that really is a huge sting to the younger sibling.  This isn't a situation where everyone is an adult here.  The 16 yr old is coming close, but a 14 yr old is still very much a kid.  A teen, yes, but a young one.  And they absolutely feel that disappointment very keenly.  

Sure.  But life is disappointing sometimes.  I guess as a parent I would have felt no obligation to make this trip happen after the fact especially if it were financially a challenge.  It really is ok if teens suffer some let downs.  

[Frances]

13 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, no father "owes" their kid a birthday trip, any more than a sibling owes his siblings. 

But, when an adult sibling tells a young/minor sibling, that he/she is going to take the younger sib somewhere, then flakes out, and then goes on his/her own, yes, that really is a huge sting to the younger sibling.  This isn't a situation where everyone is an adult here.  The 16 yr old is coming close, but a 14 yr old is still very much a kid.  A teen, yes, but a young one.  And they absolutely feel that disappointment very keenly.  

And hopefully they share those feelings with their big brother. Given the current situation, I think that will likely have far more impact on the young man than anything the parents say or do.

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Sure, but an adult sibling intentionally causing such disappointment in their younger siblings....it's a real butt nugget move.

I think the disappointment of his sisters (one of whom was added to the trip by his parents, not him) was more likely the unintended fall out of an impulsive act motivated by anger at his mother, not his intention at all. He may actually feel pretty badly about the effect it had on his sisters. The parents could also have handled things differently,  in order to avoid disappointing the girls.

[catz]

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

And hopefully they share those feelings with their big brother. Given the current situation, I think that will likely have far more impact on the young man than anything the parents say or do.

Yes, this is what I was coming to say.  Sometimes natural consequences really are the best.  I doubt it was intentional from the onset.  

Edited September 17, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[hshibley]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

No where does it say they forced him to add the second sister. 

It’s in the original post. I can’t double quote. I’ll quote it below. 

[hshibley]

On 9/16/2019 at 2:46 PM, BakersDozen said:

He bought a ticket for himself and one sister as he was initially going to Seattle in Feb. for her bday but when that fell through the trip was planned for the fall and the East Coast. We added the other sister to the plans as we figured lodging for 3 wouldn't be more than lodging for 2 and it would help our son w/the expense.

Here’s where it mentions adding the other sister 

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, hshibley said:

Here’s where it mentions adding the other sister 

Yes but I am not reading that he was forced. 

[Murphy101]

47 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

But she didn't just say he was a selfish ass for cancelling his sister's trip. She also expressed anger over how he spends his money (shouldn't be wasting it on $20 burgers and one movie a week, but dropping $1000 on his sister's bday present is fine), she's mad he didn't go to college, she's mad about how he interacts with his father, etc. She listed a LOT of negative character traits about this kid, some of which have nothing to do with this incident. It sounds like she really doesn't like — or respect — him very much, and I think that's sad. Maybe that's part of why he pushes back and behaves disrespectfully in return. 

 

It’s possible she doesn’t like him and he doesn’t behave in respectable ways. I admit, I tend to not like people who treat me like crap. Most people don’t.  Love them anyways but yeah, probably not like them.

People are how they behave. We can yap all day, and words do matter, but it doesn’t mean diddly if we act in a way that betrays those words. 

As for this particular incident, I’m not commenting further on it until the OP answers my questions bc I think until then there’s not a big enough picture. 

[catz]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes but I am not reading that he was forced. 

It doesn't sound necessarily like he proposed the change either.  Sometimes young adult have a hard time with boundaries.  I suspect it would have been hard for him to say "I really only wanted 16 yo sister this time around."  Especially if the sisters were part of this conversation.  There have been many threads on this board where people need help and encouragement to lay down clear boundaries with parental expectations of adult children.  

My only thought is, if they're old enough to pay for it, they're old enough to book it and let the chips fall where they may.  I think it is odd the parents were doing all the planning and booking if this was the young adult's trip.   If there is one thing I've learned as the parent of a young adult is don't be more invested in what they're doing than they are.  

Edited September 17, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[moonflower]

I just wonder, since the OP sees her son as opportunistic and selfish and not generous of heart, why she believed he would pay for an expensive trip for his sister (and be willing to have the other sister tag along) when he is not wealthy and she thinks $20 for a night out would be excessive spending for his income level. I mean, if the OP had enough faith in his willingness to spend that much money on someone else that she fronted the money temporarily, why does she think he's super selfish?  And if she thinks he's only interested in hoarding his own money while spending someone else's, why trust him to spend lots of his money on the OP's minor child?  

 

[Xahm]

Last year's six week trip when he chaperoned: did he get paid for that? A 21 year old working without pay, only food and lodging covered, sounds very generous to me. If his parents aren't thinking of that, he should reasonably feel unappreciated. If they are also deciding to add a child and 2 days on the trip without consulting him (it is unclear in the original post who the "we" mailing decisions included), then they are treating him like a teenager, and poorly even for a teenager, but expecting him to act like an adult.

[SKL]

Some of us believe in using straight talk when our kids are being butts.

I prefer this to the all too common "my kid would never do that" kind of language.  Like sooner or later, every kid on the planet "has a heart of gold" etc. etc.

If people on this board can't handle the expression of hard parental emotions, I'm not sure but maybe that's not the OP's issue.

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

My only thought is, if they're old enough to pay for it, they're old enough to book it and let the chips fall where they may.  I think it is odd the parents were doing all the planning and booking if this was the young adult's trip.   If there is one thing I've learned as the parent of a young adult is don't be more invested in what they're doing than they are.  

Exactly! It sounds like he made an extremely generous (probably impulsive, and possibly unaffordable) offer to the 16 yr old as a birthday present, and then the parents basically took it over, added two days and another child, made all the reservations, and gave him an ultimatum that if he didn't transfer $1000 to their bank account by X date, they were cancelling the reservations they made for what was supposed to be his trip. So he got angry and impulsively cancelled the whole thing. Childish and irrational for sure, but not exactly proof that he's an irredeemably selfish, prideful, opportunistic, ungenerous, money-hoarding jerk of a human being.

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Some of us believe in using straight talk when our kids are being butts.

I prefer this to the all too common "my kid would never do that" kind of language.  Like sooner or later, every kid on the planet "has a heart of gold" etc. etc.

If people on this board can't handle the expression of hard parental emotions, I'm not sure but maybe that's not the OP's issue.

🙄

I'm a big believer in straight talk; I am blunt with pretty much everyone, including my kids, who are far from coddled. I certainly don't think every child — and certainly not my own — has a "pure heart of gold." With the rare exception of maybe a few true psychopaths, I don't think any child or young adult should be written off as inherently selfish, prideful, opportunistic, uncaring, etc. — especially when the main "evidence" for this assessment is that the kid basically doesn't do what the parent thinks he should do. 

To me, the actual "straight talk" in this thread = suggestions that the OP might want to look at the way she speaks about her child and ask herself if there is a better, kinder, more loving way to frame her issues with him, rather than just patting her head and reassuring her that her son is a terrible person and her feelings towards him are totally justified.

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I have an adopted child who is... difficult to say the least. I have to try really really hard to make sure I frame things in terms of her behavior, not who she is — not just in the way I talk to her, but in the way I think about her, too. I don't believe that selfish, thoughtless, or even dishonest behaviors mean she is by nature a selfish, thoughtless, dishonest person. Its really really important to me to stop if I ever catch myself starting to think that way because I don't want that to colors my feelings towards her, and I want her to know that no matter what she does I will always love the person she is. Sometimes that is really f^&*ing HARD, but as her mother I believe I owe her that.

 

I don't dwell on this crap but it takes me a day or two to talk myself down from that ledge. And I have to process it for a bit. Eventually, I get there. But not everyone instantly goes...Oh my kid's a real pain....but hey they have so many good qualities.

 

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

 

Again, when someone is really p!$$@d off and is justifibly so, they sometimes get a bit over the top.  

Yep. this

[catz]

Had the parents not provided all this scaffolding and planning though, this likely would have fallen apart in May or June instead of the end of August when people were already packing bags.  That would have not been nearly as dramatic.  Yes, sure, be mad at the 22 year old for his part.  You can be mad at someone for their actions.  But you shouldn't be mad at them for what you do in response to their actions.  The parents just seemed over involved and over invested trying to make this happen.  And I can imagine a 22 year old still living with a sibling figuring things out might not be good at laying out boundaries yet.  It sounds like some work is probably needed on communication skills going both ways.  

[Garga]

I know that people are young at 22, but by then I’d been married for 3 years and a homeowner for 1 and had held down a full time job for 5 years. So, on one hand, yes, he’s young.  And on the other, he’s a full-fledged adult.  There’s a bit of tension at that age about how adult we all are.  I was doing all those adult things and handling them (showing up on time, etc.) but I also remember a number of jerk-moves I pulled.  I remember one time that I was going to give away my piano.  A mother contacted me and we set up a date for her to get it.  But then she forgot the date and didn’t show.  She called and asked for a new date and I flat out refused. I was so offended that she wasn’t reliable that I said, “No.  You can’t have it now because you left me hanging.”  She said, “But my kids were looking forward to it!  I can’t afford to buy one!”  And I stood my ground and was proud of myself because I wasn’t going to suffer a fool who couldn’t show up to her appointments.  Oh, what a jerk I was!  I can assure you, I would never in a billion years do that now.  I would absolutely hate being around my 22 year old self.  I can barely believe I’m the same person today.  I mean, what a rotten, judgy jerky-jerk I was.  Just mean.  If my mother had had a board like this and found out I did that, she’d have been on the board despairing of her horrid daughter.  Again, I can assure you I’m about as opposite of that now as you can be.  I did finally grow up which happened after marriage and house and full-time job. 

I’ve had very unflattering feelings/thoughts about my sons from time to time.  I’ve noticed issues in their character that I feel a burden to try to correct.  However, mine are 14 and 17, so it’s still my “job” to try to correct them, or at least provide strong guidance.  If they were 22, I don’t know if I’d have a chance to try to help or not.  When I was around 22 and horrible to that piano woman, I’m not sure anyone could have convinced me I was wrong.  She was clearly wrong (I thought at the time), because people are supposed to be good for their word and she wasn’t.  (That was my thought process—very black and white and no mercy.)

So, I understand why the OP would say the harsh words.  Sometimes the observations the parent has are just true.  But at the same time, that has to be balanced out with not forgetting all the very, very good qualities of the person.  Sometimes when it’s our job to zero in on the problem areas and clean them up, that’s all we can see and we forget the good qualities.  I mean, my mother never knew how I treated that piano woman, but I’m sure she’d have been aghast that she’d raised a person who could be such a jerk and for a bit of time afterwards, I don’t think she’d have felt lovey-dovey around me.  I think she’d have looked at me every time we were together thinking, “What a jerk person I raised!  Why was she so mean to that poor woman?”  

OP, I’d be pretty upset.  But I do think it’ll blow over.  I think in a few months you’ll still be a little hurt, but not to the point of wanting to cry and feeling as raw as you do now.  And you have all learned lessons.  You might have to back off a bit from him and let him grow a bit more on his own.

[Paige]

23 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

Then, continues to say he will get the money to them, with several gentle/not so gentle reminders, from his mom.  Finally, she gets fed up and threatens to cancel the hotel room (air bbt?  ) if he doesn't get her the money he promised.  (that is the part I wouldn't have done.)  He gets irked off and essentially says 'fine, if you want to cancel the  room, we will just cancel the whole thing and no one goes.'  

 

 

I read it as finally she gets fed up and cancels the hotel without warning him that this was imminent. Then he canceled the rest of it when he heard about it. I don't know what if any conversations happened between them after the Airbnb was cancelled. Did she call and let him know or did he find out another way? How did the conversation go? 

It's her right to cancel without warning, but I don't think it's kind. If I'm wrong and she said, if we don't have the money by this date we will have to cancel then my opinion would change. I'm also confused about why she had to cancel that day? Was there the thought that you wouldn't really ever be paid? Did you need to pay off the CC and not have the money? Was it just a point being made? Those answers would also affect my opinion. 

Ultimately, I see it as an unfortunate lesson for all parties. Sisters learn brother makes promises he can''t keep. Brother learns parents mean it when they say he needs to show them the money. Parents learn that they need money up front if it's a big deal. 

[Scarlett]

16 minutes ago, Garga said:

I know that people are young at 22, but by then I’d been married for 3 years and a homeowner for 1 and had held down a full time job for 5 years. So, on one hand, yes, he’s young.  And on the other, he’s a full-fledged adult.  There’s a bit of tension at that age about how adult we all are.  I was doing all those adult things and handling them (showing up on time, etc.) but I also remember a number of jerk-moves I pulled.  I remember one time that I was going to give away my piano.  A mother contacted me and we set up a date for her to get it.  But then she forgot the date and didn’t show.  She called and asked for a new date and I flat out refused. I was so offended that she wasn’t reliable that I said, “No.  You can’t have it now because you left me hanging.”  She said, “But my kids were looking forward to it!  I can’t afford to buy one!”  And I stood my ground and was proud of myself because I wasn’t going to suffer a fool who couldn’t show up to her appointments.  Oh, what a jerk I was!  I can assure you, I would never in a billion years do that now.  I would absolutely hate being around my 22 year old self.  I can barely believe I’m the same person today.  I mean, what a rotten, judgy jerky-jerk I was.  Just mean.  If my mother had had a board like this and found out I did that, she’d have been on the board despairing of her horrid daughter.  Again, I can assure you I’m about as opposite of that now as you can be.  I did finally grow up which happened after marriage and house and full-time job. 

I’ve had very unflattering feelings/thoughts about my sons from time to time.  I’ve noticed issues in their character that I feel a burden to try to correct.  However, mine are 14 and 17, so it’s still my “job” to try to correct them, or at least provide strong guidance.  If they were 22, I don’t know if I’d have a chance to try to help or not.  When I was around 22 and horrible to that piano woman, I’m not sure anyone could have convinced me I was wrong.  She was clearly wrong (I thought at the time), because people are supposed to be good for their word and she wasn’t.  (That was my thought process—very black and white and no mercy.)

So, I understand why the OP would say the harsh words.  Sometimes the observations the parent has are just true.  But at the same time, that has to be balanced out with not forgetting all the very, very good qualities of the person.  Sometimes when it’s our job to zero in on the problem areas and clean them up, that’s all we can see and we forget the good qualities.  I mean, my mother never knew how I treated that piano woman, but I’m sure she’d have been aghast that she’d raised a person who could be such a jerk and for a bit of time afterwards, I don’t think she’d have felt lovey-dovey around me.  I think she’d have looked at me every time we were together thinking, “What a jerk person I raised!  Why was she so mean to that poor woman?”  

OP, I’d be pretty upset.  But I do think it’ll blow over.  I think in a few months you’ll still be a little hurt, but not to the point of wanting to cry and feeling as raw as you do now.  And you have all learned lessons.  You might have to back off a bit from him and let him grow a bit more on his own.

 

This was a very balanced and kind post. 

[Tina]

On 9/16/2019 at 1:57 PM, BakersDozen said:

True...I'm glad I am not today who or how I was at 22. What I do not understand is pride so strong that one would rather foot the entire bill for a trip rather than pay a lesser amount simply because it is requested.

When we offered allowance when the boys were young, the younger one wanted the same as his older brother or not at all.  lol  BTDT

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, Paige said:

I read it as finally she gets fed up and cancels the hotel without warning him that this was imminent. Then he canceled the rest of it when he heard about it. I don't know what if any conversations happened between them after the Airbnb was cancelled. Did she call and let him know or did he find out another way? How did the conversation go? 

It's her right to cancel without warning, but I don't think it's kind. If I'm wrong and she said, if we don't have the money by this date we will have to cancel then my opinion would change. I'm also confused about why she had to cancel that day? Was there the thought that you wouldn't really ever be paid? Did you need to pay off the CC and not have the money? Was it just a point being made? Those answers would also affect my opinion. 

Ultimately, I see it as an unfortunate lesson for all parties. Sisters learn brother makes promises he can''t keep. Brother learns parents mean it when they say he needs to show them the money. Parents learn that they need money up front if it's a big deal. 

She told him on 8/23 he needed to transfer $1000 to her account because she had put the expenses on her credit card and had to pay the bill. Six days later, when he was at their house, he said he intended to transfer the money but hadn't got around to it yet and that he would go to the bank and get the money the next day, which was Saturday. Saturday night she notified him that since he had not transferred the money, she cancelled the reservations. He responded angrily by "cancelling the trip" which I guess means plane tickets? Maybe he discovered that his ticket was not actually refundable, and that's why he used it anyway.

 

[Corraleno]

11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

When he didn't do that on the the 30th, they sent him a message to tell him that if he didn't take care of it, they would be cancelling that evening (therefore, still giving him the whole day to at least hit an ATM).  

.....

I don't get the impression that the OP and her son are so antagonistic to each other that they never spoke once between May and August 23rd.  "Hey kiddo, I really gotta pay the CC, since we are already together having lunch, lets just swing by the bank over there and we can take care of this."  

BUT, that didn't happen, which other people have indicated they wouldn't have done anyway.  And I don't feel like they totally up and threatened to cancel with no warning.  

You can't get $1000 out of an ATM, and there's no indication that she warned him on Friday that if the money wasn't in their account within 24 hours they would cancel. She says she told him that since the money had not been deposited, she was cancelling the reservations — at which point it was too late.

There's also no indication that she put these expenses on a credit card in May and was waiting months for reimbursement. It sounds like she just put them on the card in August and wanted the money before the August bill was due. So she emailed him a week before the bill was due, reminded him 6 days later, and then cancelled 24 hours after that, without giving him any notice she planned to cancel.

[Farrar]

Thinking about venting in these terms.

I get that sometimes people use this language when they're upset and I'm definitely guilty of it sometimes. However, my mother is exactly like that when she's upset with someone - over the top, "this is a bad/cruel/selfish/rude person" and not "this bad/cruel/selfish/rude act was hurtful and I'm upset." And it has slowly spilled over into our relationship. Last time she got truly angry at me (and, let me tell you, it was the weirdest saga and way too much to get into) she ranted at me on the phone for several minutes and used a lot of really strong words about how I was a cold, cold, cold person who had always been cold and unfeeling and that I had never loved or cared about her or anyone else in my life. It went on in that vein.

Part of me has had to let it go and say, she was upset (though, it was over some things that I absolutely stand behind to this day) and didn't really mean it. And I recognized that she often uses this sort of language about others when she's mad. She's never just mad about an incident. It's always that the person is bad or at fault or flawed in some grave and overarching way. And I think this is just how she frames her thoughts. But it really ramped up her anger into what I can only describe as an irrational diatribe that went so far beyond the original grievance that it's preposterous. 

If we assume that it was a vent and not really how she feels about her ds, then okay. But that event with my mother has led me to see how thinking in those overarching character flaw, it's all connected kind of terms can be really hurtful. It can make catastrophizing a person's character over one incident so much easier. It's a paradigm when you approach people and events that isn't really healthy. And I've been trying to call myself on it when it happens and moderate my thinking. I tend to be a venter myself and to use  angry language then drop it. But that language can ramp up my feelings long term instead of being a valve for my hurt or anger. So if she doesn't really think that way, I'd suggest she call herself on it. Because when you put the words out there, it does begin to shape how you think.

[Shoeless]

On 9/16/2019 at 1:46 PM, BakersDozen said:

He canceled everything. This is a person who, if told to turn left, will turn right just to show that he can't be told what to do. 

 

Stop telling him what to do.  Maybe he doesn't want that kind of relationship with you anymore.  Even if you think he needs that kind of guidance, even if you think he's making a giant mess of his life, even if you think it's foolish to spend $20 on hamburgers, just stop.  He's 22. 

It's rude and snotty the way that he handled this trip and everything around it; there's no disagreement from me that he handled it poorly.  

It seems like you have a lot of expectations for how your son should fit into your lives and his siblings lives.  Did you ask him if it was ok to add on the other sibling? Did your son want to handle all the arrangements for the trip, but instead you took over as "Mom and Dad" and managed/parented the whole thing?  Did you maybe step on his toes and he got mad and said "Forget it. I'll take the trip by myself". 

I feel like I've been the son in this situation.  I offer to do ABC, parents agree and then hijack the plan, adding on more responsibility for me plus *all* their expectations for how I should be living my life, and then give me an ultimatum that they'll pull the plug on the whole thing if I don't behave.  

If this was a friend and not your son, would you have used the same words and tone? Would you have handled it the same way, or would you have extended more grace and courtesy?  

    

 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

If we assume that it was a vent and not really how she feels about her ds, then okay. But that event with my mother has led me to see how thinking in those overarching character flaw, it's all connected kind of terms can be really hurtful. It can make catastrophizing a person's character over one incident so much easier. It's a paradigm when you approach people and events that isn't really healthy. And I've been trying to call myself on it when it happens and moderate my thinking. I tend to be a venter myself and to use  angry language then drop it. But that language can ramp up my feelings long term instead of being a valve for my hurt or anger. So if she doesn't really think that way, I'd suggest she call herself on it. Because when you put the words out there, it does begin to shape how you think.

 

For what it's worth, I never would have guessed this about you.  You've always come across as very calm, collected, and reasonable!

I am also a venter that is trying to put a lid on it. My parents were people that would spew angry words and assault your character when angry.  I can still hear my stepmother screaming at me that I was a "Selfish, selfish, self-absorbed thing!" because I forgot to pick up a gallon of milk on my way home from work.  And I worked in a grocery store!  And I too was 22!  Ugh. 

[fairfarmhand]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Thinking about venting in these terms.

I get that sometimes people use this language when they're upset and I'm definitely guilty of it sometimes. However, my mother is exactly like that when she's upset with someone - over the top, "this is a bad/cruel/selfish/rude person" and not "this bad/cruel/selfish/rude act was hurtful and I'm upset." And it has slowly spilled over into our relationship. Last time she got truly angry at me (and, let me tell you, it was the weirdest saga and way too much to get into) she ranted at me on the phone for several minutes and used a lot of really strong words about how I was a cold, cold, cold person who had always been cold and unfeeling and that I had never loved or cared about her or anyone else in my life. It went on in that vein.

Part of me has had to let it go and say, she was upset (though, it was over some things that I absolutely stand behind to this day) and didn't really mean it. And I recognized that she often uses this sort of language about others when she's mad. She's never just mad about an incident. It's always that the person is bad or at fault or flawed in some grave and overarching way. And I think this is just how she frames her thoughts. But it really ramped up her anger into what I can only describe as an irrational diatribe that went so far beyond the original grievance that it's preposterous. 

If we assume that it was a vent and not really how she feels about her ds, then okay. But that event with my mother has led me to see how thinking in those overarching character flaw, it's all connected kind of terms can be really hurtful. It can make catastrophizing a person's character over one incident so much easier. It's a paradigm when you approach people and events that isn't really healthy. And I've been trying to call myself on it when it happens and moderate my thinking. I tend to be a venter myself and to use  angry language then drop it. But that language can ramp up my feelings long term instead of being a valve for my hurt or anger. So if she doesn't really think that way, I'd suggest she call herself on it. Because when you put the words out there, it does begin to shape how you think.

I never vocalize this stuff. Ever. It absolutely infuriates certain people I live with because they know I’m livid but I clam up completely. And there’s no silent treatment either. Im just mute on whatever is causing conflict and I will not talk about the problem when I’m feeling negatively.

[Jenny in Florida]

5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

You can't get $1000 out of an ATM,

 

Depends on your bank. I can take out more than that daily.

[LucyStoner]

8 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Yes I can get $1000 out of an ATM.

If you can't, then your bank has different rules.    

I have.  Obviously my bank has different rules than yours.  

She said she would be cancelling "that evening."

 

This kid lives about 15 minutes away from his parents.  If his bank has more strict rules about what he can get out of the ATM, I have a strong suspicion that if he had gone to the bank, taken like $500 out, went to his parents house and said "I totally forgot, this is all the bank let me take out of the ATM, I will get more on Monday" then this would have all been avoided.

And that all presumes that there was no ability at ALL to do some sort of electronic transfer, which 

That sounds to me like he intended to do some sort of electronic transfer, he just never did it. I think most banks allow transfers of $1k right?

 

The agreement and the bookings happened in May.  

 

 

Odds are good that the *22 year old* who has been working at a bank for what I assume is less than a year (don’t know of any banks that offer non-c suite peeps 6 weeks of vacation) has a $300-500 daily max on their debit or ATM card.  My bank isn’t open Saturday but then my bank doesn’t even have tellers. Obviously, the solution is to use an electronic option like Zelle, Venmo, PayPal or an ACH payment of some type.  That he didn’t do that makes me speculate that he didn’t really have the funds or didn’t want to go on the trip with both sisters for some reason.  

The 22 year old messed up big time and I agree with you that the mom has the right to feel the way she feels and certainly isn’t obligated to be all sunshine and roses about this or anything else.  Mothers aren’t saints.  We get to be pissed.  We get to have less than charitable thoughts.  

But I also think there’s something to Correleno’s take on how this played out.  I cannot fathom endorsing this level of spending and I think everyone made some mistakes along the way.  

The 22 year old might not have been able to say no to adding the 14 year old.  He might have overcommitted and not had the skills to come clean in a timely fashion.  He might have been crippled by embarrassment.  To me he deserves some benefit of the doubt, just like the OP deserves the benefit of the doubt that she is speaking in anger while venting here.  

 

 

[LucyStoner]

2 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

 

Depends on your bank. I can take out more than that daily.

 

More than your bank, it depends on your account and factors like average daily balance and history with the bank.  

My brother and I use the exact same credit union.  For various reasons, primarily average daily balance and longevity of the account, a larger portion of my mobile check deposits are made immediately available to me than they are to him + I have daily max on my check card that is 10x his.  

I would hazard to guess that the middle aged middle class moms on this board have higher limits than the average 22 year old.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

8 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Also, aren't most banks actually open on a Saturday morning, for at least a few hours?  Even without a checkbook or debit card, if there is an account, most folks can walk into a bank branch, withdraw any amount up to what they have in their account, with no ATM or checkbook required.  Just an ID necessary (which, we should all presume he has since he works IN a bank.  

 

Random information:  I’ve noticed a sharp drop off in weekend banking for both in person and live phone banking hours.  Mobile deposits have all but wiped out bank tellers here.  My clients use 10 different banks, a mix of national and regional names and a smattering of CUs.  

Most do not have tellers.  Weekend hours were a selling point for banks when people needed cash for the weekend.  Even after ATMs, banks could add value but staying open on weekends for initiating loans but now so much of that is handled online.  Saturday hours aren’t unheard of, but they don’t seem to be the big thing anymore.  

[LucyStoner]

@Farrar, @Corraleno and @happysmileylady

I want to say that I agree with all of you to a large degree, even though it’s conflicting opinions.  

1. We all get venting. 

2. We all also presumably get that language matters and flipping the script can help change the feelings or even help one self regulate their reactions and emotions in a more healthy way.  

These things are not unable to co-exist.  

[LucyStoner]

9 hours ago, Garga said:

I know that people are young at 22, but by then I’d been married for 3 years and a homeowner for 1 and had held down a full time job for 5 years. So, on one hand, yes, he’s young.  And on the other, he’s a full-fledged adult.  There’s a bit of tension at that age about how adult we all are.  I was doing all those adult things and handling them (showing up on time, etc.) but I also remember a number of jerk-moves I pulled.  I remember one time that I was going to give away my piano.  A mother contacted me and we set up a date for her to get it.  But then she forgot the date and didn’t show.  She called and asked for a new date and I flat out refused. I was so offended that she wasn’t reliable that I said, “No.  You can’t have it now because you left me hanging.”  She said, “But my kids were looking forward to it!  I can’t afford to buy one!”  And I stood my ground and was proud of myself because I wasn’t going to suffer a fool who couldn’t show up to her appointments.  Oh, what a jerk I was!  I can assure you, I would never in a billion years do that now.  I would absolutely hate being around my 22 year old self.  I can barely believe I’m the same person today.  I mean, what a rotten, judgy jerky-jerk I was.  Just mean.  If my mother had had a board like this and found out I did that, she’d have been on the board despairing of her horrid daughter.  Again, I can assure you I’m about as opposite of that now as you can be.  I did finally grow up which happened after marriage and house and full-time job. 

I’ve had very unflattering feelings/thoughts about my sons from time to time.  I’ve noticed issues in their character that I feel a burden to try to correct.  However, mine are 14 and 17, so it’s still my “job” to try to correct them, or at least provide strong guidance.  If they were 22, I don’t know if I’d have a chance to try to help or not.  When I was around 22 and horrible to that piano woman, I’m not sure anyone could have convinced me I was wrong.  She was clearly wrong (I thought at the time), because people are supposed to be good for their word and she wasn’t.  (That was my thought process—very black and white and no mercy.)

So, I understand why the OP would say the harsh words.  Sometimes the observations the parent has are just true.  But at the same time, that has to be balanced out with not forgetting all the very, very good qualities of the person.  Sometimes when it’s our job to zero in on the problem areas and clean them up, that’s all we can see and we forget the good qualities.  I mean, my mother never knew how I treated that piano woman, but I’m sure she’d have been aghast that she’d raised a person who could be such a jerk and for a bit of time afterwards, I don’t think she’d have felt lovey-dovey around me.  I think she’d have looked at me every time we were together thinking, “What a jerk person I raised!  Why was she so mean to that poor woman?”  

OP, I’d be pretty upset.  But I do think it’ll blow over.  I think in a few months you’ll still be a little hurt, but not to the point of wanting to cry and feeling as raw as you do now.  And you have all learned lessons.  You might have to back off a bit from him and let him grow a bit more on his own.

 

Nice post.  

At 22, I was also married for a year and had a baby on the way who arrived just shy of my 23rd birthday.  My high school aged brother lived with me and not with our parents from the time I was not yet 19-22ish.  I’d worked steadily for 10 years and been out on my own while also providing financial support for my parents at times.  

I was simultaneously still growing up.  I was closer to a child in so many ways.  I had some needlessly terse interactions with my MIL.  I was so direct and matter of fact that at times I had made multiple college students who asked me for help and at least one assistant at my office cry.  I still wince when I think of that. 

I was hopelessly flawed (and remain so in different ways).  I was also hard working, a diligent student and very generous with both my time and money.  I was much loved by my husband and friends.  Good and bad traits exist simultaneously in the same people.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Farrar]

5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

@Farrar, @Corraleno and @happysmileylady

I want to say that I agree with all of you to a large degree, even though it’s conflicting opinions.  

1. We all get venting. 

2. We all also presumably get that language matters and flipping the script can help change the feelings or even help one self regulate their reactions and emotions in a more healthy way.  

These things are not unable to co-exist.  

I think that’s very true... and sort of what I’m saying. I can understand if it’s a vent, but that doesn’t mean it won’t negatively impact her relationship with her ds.

And it’s hard to regulate these things when you’re mad, but that’s also not really an excuse. For some people it’s hard not to physically hurt someone if you’re mad and we wouldn’t excuse that. Obviously this isn’t in the same ballpark, but still.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Farrar

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I think that’s very true... and sort of what I’m saying. I can understand if it’s a vent, but that doesn’t mean it won’t negatively impact her relationship with her ds.

And it’s hard to regulate these things when you’re mad, but that’s also not really an excuse. For some people it’s hard not to physically hurt someone if you’re mad and we wouldn’t excuse that. Obviously this isn’t in the same ballpark, but still.

 

I get that.  I have two autistic sons.  Parenting is pretty time intensive for me in ways that is atypical for their ages.  I get frustrated.  But no matter how frustrated, I really can’t indulge the vent too long mentally + the vent has a time and a place and it definitely can impact not only relationships but my energy and mental health.  

[SKL]

I grew up with a mom who spewed such language that I couldn't copy it if I tried.  Seriously.  I'm just not that talented.  And the language was not uncommonly directed at me.  I mean stuff you would not even ever post on this board.  There is only 1 word I can think of that my mom never used toward me, and I'm not going to say what it was.

In the moment, it hurt, but in the long run, I knew and know that it was just frustration speaking.  Sure it was wrong, but oh well.  I doubt she planned those speeches when she woke each morning.  She had her own mega baggage and lots of stressors in life.  It is what it is.

I am raising two 8th grade girls, and there have been times when I've been pretty darn pi$$ed.  Have a few words slipped out, yes.  But I am definitely more careful than my mom was.  Possibly because I am 50% my dad, who rarely swore and almost never criticized us.  But also partly because my most button-pushing child has some mental stuff that (in my mind at least) makes her more fragile.  However far she pushes me, I don't forget that - at least I haven't so far (she's not quite 13).

Online, though, I say things my kid isn't going to ever see.  But I know I'm going to be judged on here, and also that people can't hear my tone and don't have my sense of humor.  So I try to be as unemotional as I can be when describing issues.  That means neither exaggerating nor understating problems as I see them.  (I have learned this over time, after initially posting jokingly and realizing how differently many people read my words.  So if you remember something I said in the past, I'm not lying.)  But if it's clearly a vent or I'm currently crying because the event is so raw, you might get something different.  Hopefully most people can understand that.

And now I need to go get another cup of my Don't Kill the Children elixir aka coffee ....

Edited September 18, 2019 by SKL

[LucyStoner]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

I grew up with a mom who spewed such language that I couldn't copy it if I tried.  Seriously.  I'm just not that talented.  And the language was not uncommonly directed at me.  I mean stuff you would not even ever post on this board.  There is only 1 word I can think of that my mom never used toward me, and I'm not going to say what it was.

In the moment, it hurt, but in the long run, I knew and know that it was just frustration speaking.  Sure it was wrong, but oh well.  I doubt she planned those speeches when she woke each morning.  She had her own mega baggage and lots of stressors in life.  It is what it is.

I am raising two 8th grade girls, and there have been times when I've been pretty darn pi$$ed.  Have a few words slipped out, yes.  But I am definitely more careful than my mom was.  Possibly because I am 50% my dad, who rarely swore and almost never criticized us.  But also partly because my most button-pushing child has some mental stuff that (in my mind at least) makes her more fragile.  However far she pushes me, I don't forget that - at least I haven't so far (she's not quite 13).

Online, though, I say things my kid isn't going to ever see.  But I know I'm going to be judged on here, and also that people can't hear my tone and don't have my sense of humor.  So I try to be as unemotional as I can be when describing issues.  That means neither exaggerating nor understating problems as I see them.  (I have learned this over time, after initially posting jokingly and realizing how differently many people read my words.  So if you remember something I said in the past, I'm not lying.)  But if it's clearly a vent or I'm currently crying because the event is so raw, you might get something different.  Hopefully most people can understand that.

And now I need to go get another cup of my Don't Kill the Children elixir aka coffee ....

 

It would be highly unusual in my family not to hear a fair bit of strong language and swearing.  My husband and I definitely swear less than my extended family.  Insulating my kids from strong language would mean cutting off their cousins and honestly even my dad, which I’m not willing to do.  The rule I have always used for this with my kids is that there’s a difference between swearing and swearing AT someone.  “Bleep, I’m so frustrated” is VERY different than “bleep you, you worthless bleepity bleep bleep bleep.” 

I discourage the kids from swearing at all outside of their family group where it is culturally normative.  My older son abides by that to a T.  My younger son, it’s dicier.  That said, they both know that swearing AT people is not ok and in those times that you do say something you regret, you need to make amends.  While I am not perfect, the language I use about my husband, kids and other people in my life is generally free from anything that approaches verbal abuse.  My parents swore at each other all the time and at us at times and sure, I lived and I know they loved me that is absolutely NOT what I want for my kids.  Besides how I talk to them, it’s important to me that they see a healthy and loving marriage free from nasty language directed at each other.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Mutual respect matters.  Sure, we all blow our tops sometimes.  And I even swear at times despite being a pastor's wife.  But I apologize if I was out of line.  My kids apologize if they are out of line.  We make things ok again in the relationship.  (I also make things ok between me and God.)  Getting worked up makes it hard to communicate appropriately but once every one involved has cooled down, there is no excuse for not communicating at that point. 

If someone has wronged me (whether it is my husband or my young adult kids), I tell them what they did wrong and how to fix it.  That is what I referred to upthread when I said "Let me know ahead of time in the future if you want to back out of something like this" (these aren't the exact words but I don't want to lose my place here to go find it. )  If I wasn't sure why he did something in a certain way, I would ask.  Not in a "WTH were you thinking" inflammatory sort of way but in a "Could you explain to me why you made the decisions you made" sort of way and then I would LISTEN.  Most people (and I realize that there are exceptions) are not trying to be jerks. 

I also try hard to set boundaries for myself now as the adult mom of an adult kid.  I don't give unsolicited advice - unless it were very general advice.  I don't meddle.  I don't take responsibility for what isn't my responsibility - and that includes emotionally not being invested too much in what is really my adult child's business.   It's not my job to mold their character anymore.  I had my chance. 

I also recognize that people like to hang out with people who like them.  My adult child comes to me and asks my advice and shares with me his thoughts and feelings because he knows that I accept him.  That doesn't mean that we don't have arguments at times.  Of course we do.  But over all, I like the young man he has become even as I recognize that he (just like I did) still has some growing up to do even in the 20's and beyond. 

[moonflower]

I don't  think the OP is on quite this wavelength; she's called her adult children her "greatest disappointment" and etc.  So that is a very different relationship to navigate, on both ends - one where you're really quite honestly and fully critical of/disappointed in your adult children, but they still want a relationship and get along well with your minor children.  I would say that staying out of things as much as possible is definitely the way to go in the future.

[SKL]

Well ... just projecting here, but I wonder if it isn't so much disappointment in the kid himself, but rather disappointment in not being the parent we wish we'd been.

My kids are a mess in some ways, not because they have black hearts, but partly because I wasn't the best at prioritizing and focusing my energy on certain things at the right time.  I was either focusing on other things, or too damn tired to focus on any of it.  (Also, my kids don't learn certain things easily.)  l still have time, but who knows what the next 6 years will accomplish.  In all likelihood, I will have disappointments.

It is interesting that the people whose kids are adults seem a bit more understanding of the OP's words than the parents of younger kids.

I will just add - I can remember my mom saying some things (to me) about my oldest brother when he was a young adult.  "Selfish" was definitely in the mix.  She wasn't being hateful.  My mom and brother have always had a healthy bond.  But brother did fail to think of others a lot of the time.  That was different from the other close-in-age kids.  (Not that we didn't all have our own issues.)

I dunno.  I guess it's OK to admit we are all imperfect in some ways, even the people we love the most.

[LucyStoner]

55 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I'm curious how posters here treat their homeschooling colleagues in real life. 

If a mom you know through homeschooling comes and expresses her extreme frustration and disappointment with something her adult child did, do you immediately leap to a critique of the language she uses ? "Um, Susan, that language is very harsh and you need to change your thinking." Or do you say things like "Oh, that sounds really frustrating. How annoying that he let his sisters down. Gosh, this parenting stage is not fun sometimes."

It seems to me there is a particular culture on this board that sees strong maternal expression as problematic, and takes any opportunity available to demonstrate correct parenting (even when one does not have children at that age/stage!) I don't think people do that IRL, other than with close friends who have invited constructive critique, so I'm wondering why it happens here ? But maybe some of you do live in IRL cultures where challenge is a common first step.

Do posters not see other WTM posters as homeschooling colleagues, but more as - idk - a stranger in the supermarket ? What drives the instinct to immediate correction of the mother expressing strongly negative emotion? Is there some kind of feeling that the children of fellow posters need 'saving' ? I keep seeing this played out over and over again, and I am super curious why it happens ?

 

I think that people suggesting changing the script/reflect on language a little are usually trying to help the mom as much as anything else.  

When my friends vent about their kids they tend to be criticizing behaviors more than the kids.   I have gently shared tips and resources with my siblings and some friends which endorse the approach that “your child is not giving you a hard time, she’s having a hard time”. I’ve also encouraged people I know to set boundaries with their kids and to respect their kids boundaries.  I’ve also had friends return the favor when I am at the end of my rope.  

Parenting autistic children isn’t a walk in the park.  I get frustration.  I get anger.  I get having it up to here and being done.  I also know that what helped me the most in those difficult situations was changing my perspective and giving myself and my children the benefit of the doubt.  That’s why a lot of the advice you seem to be dismissing or interpreting as judgment on anything besides positive feelings  is exactly what has made all the difference for me over the years.  

I think you are absolutely correct that parents are entitled to their feelings and emotions.  I also think that there’s a lot of wisdom to not personalizing our kids mistakes and not wallowing too long in rage.  

If this situation played out with a good friend I would absolutely ask if they thought the spending was reasonable and suggest that maybe he doesn’t have the money but just doesn’t have the maturity to address it early and head on.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Corraleno]

To me the issue has nothing to do with cursing or "strong language" or venting. I don't know if people are purposely misrepresenting what some of us are saying, or if they really don't get what we're talking about.

I have no problem with saying "That was a really shitty, selfish, thoughtless thing you did, and I'm so pissed off about it!"

The problem arises when that is followed by "Why are you always like this?! You are such a selfish, thoughtless, greedy person! You only care about yourself!" That never helps in any discussion, and over the long term it can destroy a relationship.

Even if a person doesn't say those things directly to someone's face, if you THINK those things every time you get mad at someone, it sets up a really negative spiral. Each transgression gets filed in the "book of evidence" proving what a greedy, selfish, opportunistic, disrespectful, yada yada yada that person is. Eventually even really minor things get viewed through that lens. Things like a 22 year old spending $20 of his own money on a hamburger or an occasional movie get seen as proof of selfishness and greed and financial irresponsibility. That is NOT the basis for a healthy relationship. 

And to answer @Stella 's question, if I had a real life friend who, every time her child did something that pissed her off, ranted about what a horrible, greedy, selfish person he was, I would say exactly what I said to the OP in this thread. It has nothing to do with not "supporting" fellow mothers. I don't think it's "supportive" to encourage and validate behavior that could cost someone their relationship with their child in the long run. If the OP in this thread chooses to dismiss the comments that I and several others are making, and continue to see her son and her other adult children as lousy human beings because they don't share 100% of her values, then that's her choice. I sincerely hope she doesn't find herself 20 years from now muttering about how selfish and thoughtless her kids turned out to be and wondering why she hardly ever sees her grandkids.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I think that people suggesting changing the script/reflect on language a little are usually trying to help the mom as much as anything else.  

When my friends vent about their kids they tend to be criticizing behaviors more than the kids.   I have gently shared tips and resources with my siblings and some friends which endorse the approach that “your child is not giving you a hard time, she’s having a hard time”. I’ve also encouraged people I know to set boundaries with their kids and to respect their kids boundaries.  I’ve also had friends return the favor when I am at the end of my rope.  

Parenting autistic children isn’t a walk in the park.  I get frustration.  I get anger.  I get having it up to here and being done.  I also know that what helped me the most in those difficult situations was changing my perspective and giving myself and my children the benefit of the doubt.  That’s why a lot of the advice you seem to be dismissing or interpreting as judgment on anything besides positive feelings  is exactly what has made all the difference for me over the years.  

I think you are absolutely correct that parents are entitled to their feelings and emotions.  I also think that there’s a lot of wisdom to not personalizing our kids mistakes and not wallowing too long in rage.  

If this situation played out with a good friend I would absolutely ask if they thought the spending was reasonable and suggest that maybe he doesn’t have the money but just doesn’t have the maturity to address it early and head on.  

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Having this reframed as being anti-woman or something is just bizarre. I am pro-healthy-relationships between parents and children, I'm not going to encourage and validate behavior that I think is destructive to those relationships. And that is based on having seen first hand many many relationships be damaged or destroyed in exactly that way.

[LucyStoner]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

I think some posters do give this excellent, changing the script advice, which I often take on board myself.

But often it also becomes an exercise in speculating about what the OP is doing wrong, and providing a critique that none of us are in a position to give.  And it seems that the critique is given before the emotion itself has been allowed to play out. It's a very fast shift from 'oh, that sucks' to 'and here's what you did wrong', that's all. A lot faster than I see in real life. 

 

 

I can only speak for my communication style but a single post might contain points or ideas that were I having the conversation in person would be 30+ minutes back and forth over a cup of tea.  I think it’s bound to come off more rapid fire and compact in a written forum than if you and me were chatting about what’s up while sitting on my balcony.  

[Garga]

22 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 And it seems that the critique is given before the emotion itself has been allowed to play out. It's a very fast shift from 'oh, that sucks' to 'and here's what you did wrong', that's all. A lot faster than I see in real life. 

 

 I’ve thought that, too—that we jump on the person while they’re still deeply emotional about it.  It makes me cringe.

But at the same time, this is a forum and there’s not a good way to ignore the thread for a few days and wait for the person to calm down and post then.  Instead, if we are going to post about the issue, it has to be posted now while the thread is active, which means we’re all posting and sometimes saying very hard things (whether for the person’s own good or not) while the person is still raw and already feeling low.  It’s rotten, but it’s how this medium works.

[SKL]

23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

To me the issue has nothing to do with cursing or "strong language" or venting. I don't know if people are purposely misrepresenting what some of us are saying, or if they really don't get what we're talking about.

I have no problem with saying "That was a really shitty, selfish, thoughtless thing you did, and I'm so pissed off about it!"

The problem arises when that is followed by "Why are you always like this?! You are such a selfish, thoughtless, greedy person! You only care about yourself!" That never helps in any discussion, and over the long term it can destroy a relationship.

Even if a person doesn't say those things directly to someone's face, if you THINK those things every time you get mad at someone, it sets up a really negative spiral. Each transgression gets filed in the "book of evidence" proving what a greedy, selfish, opportunistic, disrespectful, yada yada yada that person is. Eventually even really minor things get viewed through that lens. Things like a 22 year old spending $20 of his own money on a hamburger or an occasional movie get seen as proof of selfishness and greed and financial irresponsibility. That is NOT the basis for a healthy relationship. 

And to answer @Stella 's question, if I had a real life friend who, every time her child did something that pissed her off, ranted about what a horrible, greedy, selfish person he was, I would say exactly what I said to the OP in this thread. It has nothing to do with not "supporting" fellow mothers. I don't think it's "supportive" to encourage and validate behavior that could cost someone their relationship with their child in the long run. If the OP in this thread chooses to dismiss the comments that I and several others are making, and continue to see her son and her other adult children as lousy human beings because they don't share 100% of her values, then that's her choice. I sincerely hope she doesn't find herself 20 years from now muttering about how selfish and thoughtless her kids turned out to be and wondering why she hardly ever sees her grandkids.

It also never helps to gloss over every fault with rosy language or "careful language" that doesn't deal with an actual ongoing character issue.

IIRC you earlier referred to your child as "difficult," whereas applying your advice above, you should really be saying "my kid had a bad day" 365 days a year, every year of her life.  (I am not picking on you or your child - I probably know all too well what you mean by "difficult.")  Every kid has had a bad day, made a bad choice, overreacted to a situation.  But some of our kids have a long-term issue that should not be ignored, especially if there is any way to work on it.

[SKL]

Should we also not ever refer to our kids in positive terms like "generous"?  Maybe we should only be allowed to say "my kid made a generous choice."

Honestly, we all should know what is meant by "my kid is ___."  It does not mean my kid is hopelessly 100% ___ all the time (nor does it mean my kid is amazingly wonderfully ___ all the time).  It just means my kid can be ___ more often than s/he should be, and that bothers me.

We all know this is what OP meant, and therefore the goal of communicating meaning was met.

I don't buy the idea that if I say my kid is a buttcheek online, then the next time I see her I'm going to treat her badly or whatever. 

Personally, writing out my thoughts really helps me to organize them and put them into the right words when I do have to speak to the individual involved.

[Corraleno]

Just now, SKL said:

It also never helps to gloss over every fault with rosy language or "careful language" that doesn't deal with an actual ongoing character issue.

IIRC you earlier referred to your child as "difficult," whereas applying your advice above, you should really be saying "my kid had a bad day" 365 days a year, every year of her life.  (I am not picking on you or your child - I probably know all too well what you mean by "difficult.")  Every kid has had a bad day, made a bad choice, overreacted to a situation.  But some of our kids have a long-term issue that should not be ignored, especially if there is any way to work on it.

It's not about always using "rosy language." I have no problem telling my kid she's acting like a total jerk, or that something she did was really shitty and thoughtless. The difference is that I'm talking about how she acted and what she did, not who she is. Clearly there are people in this thread who don't think that makes any difference. I think it can make a huge difference in the long term health of a relationship, and I have seen that IRL over and over.

Please don't quote the following, as I will delete it later:
My daughter was abandoned at birth and was adopted from an orphanage. She's also had to process a difficult divorce and the loss of an adoptive father who is mentally ill and rarely sees her, so she has basically lost 3 of 4 parents. Not surprisingly, a lot of her anger and unhappiness about life gets directed at me. She can be very very difficult to deal with, and she has in fact done some very thoughtless, selfish, hurtful things that are a lot worse than disappointing a sibling over a birthday trip. But I would never say that she's a thoughtless, selfish, hurtful person who only cares for herself. 

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It's not about always using "rosy language." I have no problem telling my kid she's acting like a total jerk, or that something she did was really shitty and thoughtless. The difference is that I'm talking about how she acted and what she did, not who she is. Clearly there are people in this thread who don't think that makes any difference. I think it can make a huge difference in the long term health of a relationship, and I have seen that IRL over and over.

Please don't quote the following, as I will delete it later:
[not quoting]

I understand.  My kids have lots of baggage as well, and yes they can be little jerks, but they can also make me proud, especially given what they have to overcome.

I think we just disagree about how language is understood by most readers.

[moonflower]

or that she and your other adult children are your greatest disappointment in life