How would you feel? (kid issue)

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 What drives the instinct to immediate correction of the mother expressing strongly negative emotion? Is there some kind of feeling that the children of fellow posters need 'saving' ? I keep seeing this played out over and over again, and I am super curious why it happens ?

 

Because at 22, these "kids" aren't children. They are adults.  They are new adults, but they are adults.  I don't know about you, but I do not appreciate a lecture and scolding from my father when he thinks I've strayed from his value system.    

I feel like much of the conflict I see on this board between adult children and their parents is because the parents are struggling with letting go.  Their children are off making their own decisions, but the parents see themselves as still "In Charge".  Don't try to parent your adult offspring.  

Your kids are likely to make decisions that you disagree with.  If you keep reacting to those decisions like your children are deliberately trying to provoke you or it's evidence of a moral failing, you're probably not going to have a great relationship with each other.  I'm 47. My parents *still* view differences of opinion as character flaws or like I'm throwing a tantrum.  I don't recommend this type of dynamic to anyone.  

 

[SKL]

Another point - I'm still at the stage where it's my responsibility to help my kids develop a good character.  I do talk to my kids about this - but I put it in future terms, like, "I'm your mother and it's my job to teach you to treat people right."  I often add "I do believe you will grow up to be a decent adult, but we have a lot of work to do in the mean time."

When my kids are 22, I will no longer be in the role of developing character, though there will still be things I can do to influence it.  My language choices will very likely change.  I really don't know what I will say if my kid grows up to disappoint me in big ways.

Edited September 18, 2019 by SKL

[Corraleno]

 

34 minutes ago, SKL said:

We all know this is what OP meant, and therefore the goal of communicating meaning was met.

I don't buy the idea that if I say my kid is a buttcheek online, then the next time I see her I'm going to treat her badly or whatever. 

Actually 80% of the posts in this thread exist because people have very different ideas about  "what the OP meant." Some people think she mean "my kid acted badly" and some people think she meant "my kid acted badly because he's a selfish thoughtless jerk who only cares about himself."

Lots and lots of people on this board vent about their kids. Lots of my friends IRL vent about their kids. NONE of my friends talk about their kids the way the OP talked about her son, no matter how badly they behave. The only people I have known IRL who talk to, or about, their kids like that have been relatives who no longer have relationships with their adult children. And I know lots of adults whose parents spoke to or about them like that, and they are not close to parents either.

It is very rare even on this board for someone to vent about something their kid did, and turn it into a full-on character assassination, claiming their child is a selfish, thoughtless, opportunistic, disrespectful, money-hoarding person who cares only for himself. That is way beyond venting. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another point - I'm still at the stage where it's my responsibility to help my kids develop a good character.  I do talk to my kids about this - but I put it in future terms, like, "I'm your mother and it's my job to teach you to treat people right."  I often add "I do believe you will grow up to be a decent adult, but we have a lot of work to do in the mean time."

When my kids are 22, I will no longer be in the role of developing character, though there will still be things I can do to influence it.  My language choices will very likely change.  I really don't know what I will say if my kid grows up to disappoint me in big ways.

I don't think you would ever talk about your girls in the terms the OP used about her son, even if they disappointed you. Every thing you've posted about your kids suggests that you are very sensitive to their individual needs and issues and willing to be flexible. 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That doesn't even make sense. 

 

Actually 80% of the posts in this thread exist because people have very different idea about  "what the OP meant." Some people think she mean "my kid acted badly" and some people think she meant "my kid acted badly because he's a selfish thoughtless jerk who only cares about himself."

Lots and lots of people on this board vent about their kids. Lots of my friends IRL vent about their kids. NONE of my friends talk about their kids the way the OP talked about her son, no matter how badly they behave. The only people I have known IRL who talk to, or about, their kids like that have been relatives who no longer have relationships with their adult children. And I know lots of adults whose parents spoke to or about them like that, and they are not close to parents either.

It is very rare even on this board for someone to vent about something their kid did, and turn it into a full-on character assassination, claiming their child is a selfish, thoughtless, opportunistic, disrespectful, money-hoarding person who cares only for himself. That is want beyond venting. 

 

 

OK, well, my life experience is different.  I do see folks having hard negative conversations and still maintaining strong relationships.

The whole "you made a __ choice" language is a recent innovation, really.  When I was a kid and before that, everyone just said "you are __."  Maybe that's why I understand it to mean something different from what you understand it to mean.

[catz]

53 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I think you are absolutely correct that parents are entitled to their feelings and emotions.  I also think that there’s a lot of wisdom to not personalizing our kids mistakes and not wallowing too long in rage.  

This is a great quote.  

I talk on the board like I would in real life.  I actually think the OP got quite a bit of sympathy.  No one thinks what this son did is awesome at all.   It was a jerk move.  I'm totally sympathetic to how disappointing that would be both to me as a parent excited for my kids to have that opportunity and my teens who were potentially researching sites and packing their favorite clothes.   It's completely fair to call this move selfish and  extremely short sighted.  I'd love to be a fly on the wall next time these siblings talk.  I don't know anyone IRL who has used the language in the way I've seen here.  Only the OP knows how that comes out in real life.  I hope she moderates for her kids at home and her adult kids.  I actually found language like that very hurtful as a child.  

People can wax poetic all they like about how mature and poised and giving they were at age 22.  But this is a single young man who I believe has not pursued higher education, who is living with a sibling, and I'm guessing is not particularly mature for age in some ways.  Young adults can be selfish.  They might not plan well.  They might not follow through.  There is science out out there that indicates those brains are still in progress for years yet.  That doesn't mean they're going to be that way forever.  I do like the saying "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".  

I was a bit put off because OP was getting more angry at the 22 year old because of her DH putting work in to make the trip happen.  And seemed to be comparing him to the DH.  I wouldn't expect a 22 year old young man to have the follow through and empathy of the middle age father of many  It helps me to remember what I can control and what I can do and what parts of it I actually own in situations where people p*ss me off.  My young adult just called to ask me to charge something for him a couple days ago and I said unless it's for school, heck no kid, not without cash in hand.  There's a reason credit card companies have really strict limits on young people.  

I think when young adults are at this phase where they're trying to assert independence, it really is time to back off let them sink or swim and not be so invested in the every up or down while they're sorting it out.   I agree that conflicts like this are often rooted in a precedence of parental control and inability for the young adult to assert their independence and preferences.  Oh and I think it's totally find to let them know you're disappointed and there are hurt feelings.  

 

[hshibley]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

🤣

 

I will absolutely "parent" my adult offspring.  I am not going to spend hours lecturing, scolding, berating, and so on, but absolutely, if my kid is doing something I think is wrong, EVEN if it's not illegally or obviously immoral, I am gonna tell her.  I am not going to just keep quiet and pretend I approve of my kid's behavior just because my kid isn't doing something illegal.  

But again, I am not going to spend hours lecturing, scolding or berating her, nor will I hold a grudge either.  I will say my piece, then be done with it.  

 

To paraphrase a wise woman I know...

"I will be your *mother* till the day I die, so I will always tell you what to do.  I also know, you aren't going to do everything I tell you to, so I won't kill you for that either 🤣 )

Can I ask how old is your oldest? Is this the type of relationship you have with your parents? 

 

[catz]

29 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

You know, as I was working on lesson plans today, I was going through a few of my college resources from my teaching degree.  I was 22 when I graduated college.

As a society, we generally entrust 22yr old young men with 30+ kids EVERY DAY.  Every year, fresh college grads, age 22 or 23, walk into classrooms, elementary through high school, and are responsible for having that exact sort of follow through and empathy.  

I would just say not every 22 year is made the same.  It would be great if they were cookie cutter and we could look up on google what 21 years 8 months looked like and what to expect but it can vary widely.  Most 22 year olds aren't carting their siblings around the country on their own dime.  That seemed like an over zealous offer.  It would be interesting to know how it went from 1 sibling in Seattle that fell through to 2 in Boston, etc etc etc and how that evolved.  Maybe that Seattle trip fell through on purpose too.

Young inexperienced teachers actually have a very hard time getting hired here.  I have a almost 23yo niece finishing her master's in el ed this year and she is not very optimistic about getting full time work locally.  She actually continued for the masters because she wasn't going to get anything with just an undergrad.  And honestly, I'm not actually sure I'd want my 5-7 year old in her class of 20+ for her first few years of teaching.  She has very set in the box black and white ways of thinking about education.  She also lives in her parent's basement and spends too much money on disney tchotchkes and weird fashion trends.  LOL.  But she's still a great young person.  I wouldn't give her my credit card and I don't think I'd be comfortable with her taking my 15 year old on vacation either.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Frances]

On 9/18/2019 at 4:00 PM, MissLemon said:

 

Because at 22, these "kids" aren't children. They are adults.  They are new adults, but they are adults.  I don't know about you, but I do not appreciate a lecture and scolding from my father when he thinks I've strayed from his value system.    

I feel like much of the conflict I see on this board between adult children and their parents is because the parents are struggling with letting go.  Their children are off making their own decisions, but the parents see themselves as still "In Charge".  Don't try to parent your adult offspring.  

Your kids are likely to make decisions that you disagree with.  If you keep reacting to those decisions like your children are deliberately trying to provoke you or it's evidence of a moral failing, you're probably not going to have a great relationship with each other.  I'm 47. My parents *still* view differences of opinion as character flaws or like I'm throwing a tantrum.  I don't recommend this type of dynamic to anyone.  

 

And my parents have never treated me like our differences of opinion, lifestyle, religion, or anything else are character flaws or moral failings or any other type of bad thing. If anything, I sense unspoken admiration from them for some of our differences. And we have a wonderful relationship.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[Frances]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

OK, well, my life experience is different.  I do see folks having hard negative conversations and still maintaining strong relationships.

The whole "you made a __ choice" language is a recent innovation, really.  When I was a kid and before that, everyone just said "you are __."  Maybe that's why I understand it to mean something different from what you understand it to mean.

I think some kids will be fine with that type of language and others will not be, just as some kids will learn to read with a whole language approach, but phonics works for almost everyone. People vary in reliance, mental health, sensitivity, etc. I don’t think anyone is advocating for avoiding hard conversations. But I agree with those who are advocating for avoiding gross negative character generalizations directed at a child rather than using language about the behavior in question. Why take the chance if it’s possible to do better?

[Frances]

On 9/18/2019 at 4:21 PM, happysmileylady said:

You know, as I was working on lesson plans today, I was going through a few of my college resources from my teaching degree.  I was 22 when I graduated college.

As a society, we generally entrust 22yr old young men with 30+ kids EVERY DAY.  Every year, fresh college grads, age 22 or 23, walk into classrooms, elementary through high school, and are responsible for having that exact sort of follow through and empathy.  

But these people are choosing that career, just as the father chose to have 13 children. Many 22 year olds would not choose to be in charge of the education of 30 young people everyday and many of those who do fail miserably.

There are all different ways to demonstrate maturity and responsibility.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[Frances]

I just think message boards are so different than in person that the dynamics are automatically not going going to be the same. iRL, most people are likely going to let someone vent for awhile and commiserate with them and then probably gently start offering advice or perspective. And this could all take quite a bit of time. While on a message board, often different people are taking these roles and joining the conversation at various times, so I guess I don’t find it surprising that it seems very different and sped up.

Plus, the OPs often act very differently. Some are an active participant and continuing responding. Others fade in and out. Others participate only in the beginning, etc, etc. I don’t think this is usually happening IRL. 

Plus, I think most people likely find it easier to say what they really think on a message board, especially if it’s critical or questioning. There’s at least some anonymity compared to real life. And people have more time to ponder and reflect and come back and post later. And I doubt anyone here has a thousand or so in person close friends from all over the world and all different backgrounds whom they are looking to for advice and commiseration all at the same time. I certainly don’t.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Frances

[BakersDozen]

Oh my goodness, I'm going to try to respond to direct questions, etc. but bear with me...there's a lot to read! Co-op demanded my full attention so sorry for disappearing...
 

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On 9/17/2019 at 12:06 PM, hshibley said:

Here’s where it mentions adding the other sister 

Yes but I am not reading that he was forced. 

No forcing at all. Ideas such as younger sister going along were presented. Our son and his sisters did most of the planning. Dates and such were discussed all together just due to schedules and such. But it was a collaborative effort for sure. He expressed nothing but enthusiasm for having his sister go along.
 

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I just wonder, since the OP sees her son as opportunistic and selfish and not generous of heart, why she believed he would pay for an expensive trip for his sister (and be willing to have the other sister tag along) when he is not wealthy and she thinks $20 for a night out would be excessive spending for his income level. I mean, if the OP had enough faith in his willingness to spend that much money on someone else that she fronted the money temporarily, why does she think he's super selfish?  And if she thinks he's only interested in hoarding his own money while spending someone else's, why trust him to spend lots of his money on the OP's minor child? 

We were under the impression that he was putting money aside for this trip. He told us himself that he had the money but had not made it to the bank to do a transfer. The $20 burger thing is only an issue (in our minds only, nothing said to our ds) when he suddenly made money an issue, if that makes sense. He planned the original trip with first sister himself and sure, we questioned the cost. I/we feel he is selfish in that he ended up going on the trip anyway instead of just getting his share of the money into our account.

 

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Last year's six week trip when he chaperoned: did he get paid for that? A 21 year old working without pay, only food and lodging covered, sounds very generous to me. If his parents aren't thinking of that, he should reasonably feel unappreciated. If they are also deciding to add a child and 2 days on the trip without consulting him (it is unclear in the original post who the "we" mailing decisions included), then they are treating him like a teenager, and poorly even for a teenager, but expecting him to act like an adult.

He was not paid. He had time between end of classes/work and a job he was starting so a trip was planned, again collaboratively. He made out very, very well from that trip, I assure you. Meaning he was very happy to have the opportunity to go places and see things without having to pay (aside from expenses I already highlighted). And we did consult him on everything. We appreciated him, he appreciated the opportunity...it was fine.
 

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It sounds like he made an extremely generous (probably impulsive, and possibly unaffordable) offer to the 16 yr old as a birthday present, and then the parents basically took it over, added two days and another child, made all the reservations, and gave him an ultimatum that if he didn't transfer $1000 to their bank account by X date, they were cancelling the reservations they made for what was supposed to be his trip. So he got angry and impulsively cancelled the whole thing. Childish and irrational for sure, but not exactly proof that he's an irredeemably selfish, prideful, opportunistic, ungenerous, money-hoarding jerk of a human being.

Parents did not take anything over, add 2 days, another child, make reservations, etc. When the first trip didn't pan out our son and our daughter talked and came up with Boston as a destination. Everything was based on his work/time off schedule. He made the call for dates/duration. We presented the option of sending our other dd which he was thrilled with. The only ultimatum that happened was for him to transfer the money he said he had into our account. He was given ample time and a fair reminder that the cancellation date was approaching for the Air BnB. I would not call what he did childish. I expect childish from my younger children, not a 22-year old who is making decisions that affect others so negatively.
 

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He didn't just cancel the whole thing.  He had no regard for the fact that he disappointed his siblings, AND THEN....he went on the trip all by himself anyway and texted his parents just to tell them he went by himself.  THAT is the selfish behavior.  

This. I didn't post here when he didn't transfer the money. I was really upset when he canceled the trip, but I didn't post here or vent to anyone but my dh. We were in the process of trying to make what we thought was a failed trip opportunity work out when we got the text from our ds that he went on the trip. That is what led to my posting and my tears.  I am angry and hurt mostly for his sisters and his dad who is paying (literally) for our son's decision.
 

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I still don't understand who agreed to pay for what

Ds paid for original airfare and 2/3 of lodging (which he would have paid for in full had only he and one of our dds gone). He was to also pay for increase in airfare due to change. We paid 1/3 of lodging but kicked in 2 additional nights in a hotel and 2nd dd's airfare. Had 2nd dd not gone our ds would have still paid increased airfare for 2 tickets and full lodging.
 

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The parents just seemed over involved and over invested trying to make this happen. 

Actually, it's kind of funny because once the initial details were discussed/agreed upon (nothing forced/demanded) my dh and I literally sat and listened to our ds/dd do the planning. We intentionally let them put this together and felt good doing so given how the previous year's trip went. They had an itinerary, researched lodging, discussed public transit...it was neat to see. And we kept out of it unless it involved more detailed decisions (our ds asked dh for input on lodging location given my dh's work with maps/city work).
 

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It's her right to cancel without warning, but I don't think it's kind. If I'm wrong and she said, if we don't have the money by this date we will have to cancel then my opinion would change. I'm also confused about why she had to cancel that day?

The day the Air BnB was booked the date for full refund was noted and our ds knew money would be due. He was reminded several times and a week before the final cancellation date he received a message from me. So nothing was without warning.

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You can't get $1000 out of an ATM, and there's no indication that she warned him on Friday that if the money wasn't in their account within 24 hours they would cancel. She says she told him that since the money had not been deposited, she was cancelling the reservations — at which point it was too late.

I did warn him, including on Friday, at which point he himself said he would get to the bank on Saturday. It was not too late.

 

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Plus, it doesn't sound like the OP actually reacted irrationally towards her son, but rather to a "third party" of anonymous means.....which can sometimes be the safest place to do so, even if people online react negatively, since those people aren't actually present in the day to day. 

I/we have treated our son face to face/via message with respect and as much calmness as we can possibly muster. I do not convey to him what I posted on this site. I know that words can hurt badly so I hold back greatly with people in my life, especially my children. So yes, the third party/anonymity factor is correct. I did not want to react to my son and at that point I needed to interact with someone regarding this.

 

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Stop telling him what to do. 

I won't quote your entire post but will respond to it: We don't tell him what to do in any situation...except for getting the money he said he had into our account. That was it. Part of the process of this entire trip was us just watching him/them put it together. We don't tell him to not eat out or spend his money on things. We know about his money spending and we.say.nothing. We didn't do a single thing you asked in your post. We didn't force his sister going, we didn't manage the details, we didn't take over. The point at which we stepped on his toes was when the day came for him to get his money to us and he balked. Even then we said 'evening' which was hours and hours away...and he canceled everything. If a friend did this to us you bet I would react the same way with the same tone. What our son did was really, really low. He was extended grace/courtesy even when he canceled the trip. It was when he kept his part of the trip that I came here as I was...well...dumbfounded at what he did.

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I don't  think the OP is on quite this wavelength; she's called her adult children her "greatest disappointment" and etc.  So that is a very different relationship to navigate, on both ends - one where you're really quite honestly and fully critical of/disappointed in your adult children, but they still want a relationship and get along well with your minor children.  I would say that staying out of things as much as possible is definitely the way to go in the future.

My adult children are my greatest disappointment which means what we've been through with them is the hardest/worst thing thus far in our married/parenting lives. Things have happened that have so shocked us (and our friends/family) there just isn't any other way to describe it than the "greatest disappointment". Realizing that years of pouring into a human being only to have one walk out the door (and her boyfriend out of his family's home) is a huge disappointment. Finding out someone you trusted has lied repeatedly to you is a great disappointment. But the thing is we see and talk to our dc and, despite the great disappointments, we have good to great relationships (well, not with our son-in-law...that's a whole different matter). We are not fully critical of our adult children. We have come through some serious cr*p with them but work through things. The daughter who walked out years ago comes over just to hang out; we have a blast. The one who lied repeatedly is here each week doing science with her siblings. The son who canceled the trip (then went anyway) pops in at all hours (seriously, I'll be up at midnight and he comes in the back door) just to hang out and chat. I am incredibly grateful that the deep disappointment has not destroyed relationships. Changed, yes. But we work through and move on (albeit a bit more wary/enlightened on our end). I would say one reason we are so dismayed at what our son did is because of our 4 young adult kids he is the closest to his siblings and the most family-oriented. This trip was his idea. This is what he loves to do. So I am shocked and deeply, deeply disappointed that our son did this.

I remember hearing an older woman say that her children were her greatest disappointment. Gosh, that was years ago... Anyway, I was shocked at the time. That lady became my rock over the 3 years of "reality" that hit us starting in 2014 with our oldest. She has a great relationship with her kids (now grandparents themselves...she's 91!). She told me, "Our children can be our greatest happiness and our greatest hurt; our greatest pride and our greatest disappointment."
 

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If the OP in this thread chooses to dismiss the comments that I and several others are making, and continue to see her son and her other adult children as lousy human beings because they don't share 100% of her values, then that's her choice.

 I do not see my son as a lousy human being because he doesn't share 100% of my values. I feel you are very much stretching some of my comments/words.
 

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We all know this is what OP meant, and therefore the goal of communicating meaning was met.

I don't buy the idea that if I say my kid is a buttcheek online, then the next time I see her I'm going to treat her badly or whatever. 

Personally, writing out my thoughts really helps me to organize them and put them into the right words when I do have to speak to the individual involved.

Sighing with relief at this. I won't convince people of this, I know, but I will say that I/we do not treat our young adult children badly. Even when angry we do not speak in anger. We wait, we discuss, we try to not say things we cannot take back. I don't fire off emails/messages I cannot take back. I think some are under the impression that there is a horrible relationship here and horrible treatment/attitudes on my/our part, but that is not the case.

My apologies if I missed someone's comment/question...it's after midnight and I can hardly think straight. Goodnight, all.

Edited September 19, 2019 by BakersDozen
Clarification and spelling...

[katilac]

16 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

 

"I will be your *mother* till the day I die, so I will always tell you what to do.  I also know, you aren't going to do everything I tell you to, so I won't kill you for that either 🤣 )

That would not fly with me. Or anyone in my family, really, my siblings or our own kids. 

16 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

 As a society, we generally entrust 22yr old young men with 30+ kids EVERY DAY.  Every year, fresh college grads, age 22 or 23, walk into classrooms, elementary through high school, and are responsible for having that exact sort of follow through and empathy.  

As others said, people choose that and prepare for that,. There is a very defined structure to follow, supervision, and a myriad of rules  It may also be worth noting that 77% of teachers are female! And nearly 99% for primary. 

16 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

 Me:  So XYZ happened yesterday, DH and I talked about it last night, this is what we are going to do about it.

Mom: You shouldn't do that, do ABC instead because of 1 and 2 and 3 reasons.

Me: Dh and I talked and 1 doesn't matter because of P, and 2 is just dumb.  3 could happen, but we are still going to do that thing.

Mom: Ok, well I still think you are wrong.  I would do this instead.

Me:  Thank you mom.  Love you mom.  Did you watch AGT last night?

This example sounds more like a logical, day-to-day decision. Even my stubborn self is open to practical suggestions on where to get my car fixed or what pet sitter to hire. Although I wouldn't love the wording you shouldn't do that, that's very different from, "You shouldn't home school your children" or "That car is too expensive" or "You need to baptize those children." I'd shut it down quick, and a regular occurrence would be a significant problem. 

That doesn't mean it's wrong you and your mom do have that dynamic, but it does mean you shouldn't expect your own grown children to all be okay with it. Or their spouses, lol. 

9 hours ago, Frances said:

I just think message boards are so different than in person that the dynamics are automatically not going going to be the same.  

Very much this. 

8 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

 So I am shocked and deeply, deeply disappointed that our son did this.

The fact that you are so shocked makes me think something unexpected probably did happen. Either he didn't have the money but thought he might get it up until the last minute (and was too embarrassed to say so) or maybe he's under stress and acting out of character. Neither of those make his behavior right, of course. 

And you're probably tired of people picking apart your words, but I do think it matters: if you have a great relationship with those kids, are they truly your biggest disappointments? Or did they cause your biggest disappointments? Failure is an event, not a person. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by katilac

[Lang Syne Boardie]

FWIW, I come from a family where mothers tell their adult children what to do and what they think of their decisions all the time, and it works out for about 20 years because the second generation have been taught to value "family above all" and they put up with it. At that 20 year point, when the next generation is trying to do differently with their own grown children *while STILL* fielding a bunch of crap from their own Mom, they finally lose patience and the relationships sour. Over and over and over. 

A lot of people are unaware of the long game. Since I am aware of it, I'm starting out my adult kids' adult lives by telling them that I know them, I trust them, I believe in them, and I don't need to know everything or approve everything. So far, I've been kept in the loop and included beautifully. It's still kind of a funny dance with DIL's - I don't know for how many literal years they will continue to kind of test the waters, to see if I really do support their decisions and mind my own business, while staying involved. I just keep quietly reassuring and proving that I am that kind of MIL.

Other people may do differently and that's OK, but in 20 years you might remember this slight warning from a total stranger who no longer speaks to her mother, aunts, grandmother, and cousins because their endless judgmental and condemning version of "close knit family" finally went too far. It really was the very blatant contrast between that stress, and the relationship I was nurturing with my own dc, that made me call it quits.

 

 

[katilac]

32 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The fact that it wouldn't fly with you doesn't make it wrong to be how some other family functions.   

Dude, I said this almost word for word in my post, lol. 

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

What you said was that we shouldn't expect our grown children to be ok with it.  I expect my grown children to function the way our family (the whole of it) functions.  Plus, the post that started this little tangent was basically about people not to treat their children that way.  My point is that just because people express their opinions to their kids, that doesn't automatically create some dysfunctional family.  

I said both - there's nothing wrong if you accept that dynamic, but you shouldn't expect your own grown children will necessarily accept it. 

You say you do expect that they will. What if they don't? It's not unusual for a family to be used to doing things a certain way, only to have one or more of the adult offspring reject it. Of course expressing your opinion to your kids doesn't automatically create dysfunction, but continuing to do it when they ask that you stop will certainly create strife and/or distance. Adults don't necessarily choose to function the way their family of origin functions, and that's okay as well. 

[Xahm]

I think there's a wide range of normal. In my husband's family, there's a little too much unsolicited opinion sharing, in my opinion. (For example, I get to hear a comparative analysis between my homeschooling my kids and how my sister in law does it. They like my way better, but it doesn't make things more comfortable. Or when my husband was deployed and I had a headlight out, my mother in law went on and on about how I needed to get my dad to fix it and I had to be careful to stay home after dark until then. Nope! My dad is less handy than I am when it comes to new things we haven't done before.) On the other hand, my family is bad at communication and most members go out of their way to not share opinions because they are scared of stepping on toes. This leads to a certain lack of closeness. Our generation is trying to do better with what we have, but I realize that so are my parents and my in-laws. All that to say, most people are trying our best, but our kids are going to see areas where we failed and make their own choices. They will likely about many of our failures but will likely stumbled into some others. Good luck to all of us as we navigate that 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

I think this might be the part you missed.

I don't continue to do so after she says stop because I have already stopped.  In college, my child made a decision that I was actually rather angry about (though I was more angry about the WHY than the actual decision itself.)  And I told her.  And when I did, I said exactly those words...."I am gonna say my piece, and then it's done."  And that's exactly what happened.....it hasn't been brought up since.  

 

Is it really so common for parents to never express disapproval of their adult kids decisions?  Are there really that many adults who prefer their parents never express disapproval of their decisions?

 

I was wondering the same thing! 

I would feel like I was tiptoeing around on eggshells if I felt I had to censor myself to that degree with my own son. Our family is very open and we talk about everything, so my ds19 would probably think I didn’t care about him any more if I wasn’t honest with him and if I didn’t bring it up when I thought he was making a poor decision. 

Obviously, he would still get to make his own decision and I wouldn’t hold it against him (we aren’t grudge-holders in our family!) but I would absolutely be open with him if I thought he was doing something stupid. I would expect him to be open with me if he thought I was doing something stupid, too!

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

 

Is it really so common for parents to never express disapproval of their adult kids decisions?  Are there really that many adults who prefer their parents never express disapproval of their decisions?

 

I think it's a lot more common than you think it is. 

And I think it goes both ways. Right now I am biting my tongue watching my parents make decisions. They are theirs to make. I'm grateful that they let me make mine without feeling the need to "say their piece". 

I'd like to expand this idea more.

My parents recently made a decision to do x.  I'm not super happy that they chose to do x, I'd make decision y if it were my decision to make.  

My reaction to their decision x is really my problem to deal with. I'm feeling what I'm feeling because of my thoughts *about* them and *about* their choice. Others may look at their decision and come to a different conclusion. My reaction is mine to deal with. I don't really need to share my reaction---that their decision doesn't please me. I might look to my own thoughts and understand why I would have made decision y instead, but I'm not them and it's ok with they choose to do decision x (and reap whatever consequences---good or bad---from decision x).  

 

Your family culture is very different than mine.  It is similar to my dh's. Currently, all of his siblings (and we) are avoiding his parents. We exchange niceties, but there's no intimacy in those relationships.

[katilac]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

I think this might be the part you missed.

I don't continue to do so after she says stop because I have already stopped.  In college, my child made a decision that I was actually rather angry about (though I was more angry about the WHY than the actual decision itself.)  And I told her.  And when I did, I said exactly those words...."I am gonna say my piece, and then it's done."  And that's exactly what happened.....it hasn't been brought up since.  

 

Is it really so common for parents to never express disapproval of their adult kids decisions?  Are there really that many adults who prefer their parents never express disapproval of their decisions?

No, I didn't mean stop in the moment, as in say your piece and be done. I meant some adult offspring don't want you to get started in the first place, just don't do it, don't say your piece about my decisions. I'm one of them. I don't need unsolicited parental opinions from either side on how I spend my money or school my children or so forth, that's up to me and I'll make my own mistakes. 

College kids are a much more gray area for most people. They may be 18+ but most of them are not on their own and many of them receive substantial financial help and still live at home, either all the time or for summer/breaks. I still try not to offer much unsolicited advice to my college kids.

[katilac]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

So in other words, your want the people who love you to pretend they completely approve of everything you do?

No, they do not at all have to pretend they approve. It's not their place to approve or disapprove. Do I ask for opinions sometimes? Sure. But when I informed family that we would be homeschooling, I wasn't seeking opinions and would not have been happy for someone to say they disapproved. Likewise for other decisions such as how I spend my money, whether I go to church or not, and how I deal with my marriage. Unsolicited opinions are not desired. 

[katilac]

20 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I would feel like I was tiptoeing around on eggshells if I felt I had to censor myself to that degree with my own son. Our family is very open and we talk about everything, so my ds19 would probably think I didn’t care about him any more if I wasn’t honest with him and if I didn’t bring it up when I thought he was making a poor decision. 

19 and still under the family umbrella, yeah? I do think that's different than young adults who live away from home. 

I'd certainly not say that I never give my college kids advice, but I do try to ask if it's wanted first, lol. I try not to ask all the time, because they need space to make their own decisions (and because they can always ask for advice if they want it). And I definitely try to not make a point of disagreeing or disapproving of a decision that's already been made. I mean, that tattoo ain't going anywhere anyway 😂

 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

19 and still under the family umbrella, yeah? I do think that's different than young adults who live away from home. 

I'd certainly not say that I never give my college kids advice, but I do try to ask if it's wanted first, lol. I try not to ask all the time, because they need space to make their own decisions (and because they can always ask for advice if they want it). And I definitely try to not make a point of disagreeing or disapproving of a decision that's already been made. I mean, that tattoo ain't going anywhere anyway 😂

 

 

If my son ever came home with a tattoo and I didn’t make a disapproving comment about it, he would assume that his real mother had been kidnapped by aliens and replaced with a much nicer exact replica! 😉

[EmseB]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I know you are trying to say they don't have to pretend.....but it still sound like you want your loved ones to pretend.   

I don't think it's pretending so much as recognizing it's not their business or doesn't need comment. I think reading these posts, the best example I could think of is when a grandparent hears what their adult children are going to name their grandkid. They don't have to like it, but they shouldn't be on record as not liking the name. It's a decision the adults get to make and you don't want this history of not liking your grandkid's name out there.

Similarly with other big decisions. The relatives that expressed disapproval about us homeschooling? Well, unless they've recanted and expressed different thoughts, I'm not going to share with them about homeschooling and what we're doing. I know in the back of my mind who thinks we're doing it wrong with our kids, so it impacts the relationship. I don't need them to pretend to like it, but their disapproval doesn't need to be expressed about decisions they have no real input on.

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I know you are trying to say they don't have to pretend.....but it still sound like you want your loved ones to pretend.   

Why? It might seem this way if you are accustomed to family expressing an opinion on all of your decisions, but I promise you no pretending is needed. My brother leases a car when I think it's really stupid for him to do so - I don't need to pretend I approve, I simply don't need to comment on it! I can say "wow, nice!" without adding "but I disagree with leasing it" and no pretending is needed. People don't have to say everything that comes into their head, that's why we have thoughts. And why would my brother care if I disagreed? I'm not paying for the car! 

[Catwoman]

Just now, EmseB said:

I don't think it's pretending so much as recognizing it's not their business or doesn't need comment. I think reading these posts, the best example I could think of is when a grandparent hears what their adult children are going to name their grandkid. They don't have to like it, but they shouldn't be on record as not liking the name. It's a decision the adults get to make and you don't want this history of not liking your grandkid's name out there.

Similarly with other big decisions. The relatives that expressed disapproval about us homeschooling? Well, unless they've recanted and expressed different thoughts, I'm not going to share with them about homeschooling and what we're doing. I know in the back of my mind who thinks we're doing it wrong with our kids, so it impacts the relationship. I don't need them to pretend to like it, but their disapproval doesn't need to be expressed about decisions they have no real input on.

 

I would still say something. Especially if the chosen name for my new grandchild rhymed with Poop and I could think of a lot of future unpleasant nicknames the poor kid might have to deal with. 😉

And I was fine when a family member disagreed with my decision to homeschool. I had always respected his opinion on other things and I knew his heart was in the right place, so I had no problem talking it out with him. He wasn’t being a jerk about it; he just had some concerns. The truth was, a few of his concerns were valid and I hadn’t considered them before we talked, so taking the time to listen to my family member ended up being a real benefit to me.

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

recognizing it's not their business or doesn't need comment 

So much more succinct that I've been, lol. 

I used to say that if people wanted to tell me how to raise my kids, they could write their advice on the memo section of the child support check they were sending me. 

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Oh my mom hated the name we chose for DD10.  Hated it.  

And I don't care that she did.  We obviously used it anyway.  It's over and done with, no grudges, and it's not relevant to anyone today.  

But lots of people would care, and, if you know they wouldn't, you need to not say it. It doesn't mean you aren't close just because you don't want your loved ones dissing your name choice. 

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, katilac said:

Why? It might seem this way if you are accustomed to family expressing an opinion on all of your decisions, but I promise you no pretending is needed. My brother leases a car when I think it's really stupid for him to do so - I don't need to pretend I approve, I simply don't need to comment on it! I can say "wow, nice!" without adding "but I disagree with leasing it" and no pretending is needed. People don't have to say everything that comes into their head, that's why we have thoughts. And why would my brother care if I disagreed? I'm not paying for the car! 

 

I guess I see it differently because if I had a good reason for feeling he was making a mistake, I would want to tell him, in case he hadn’t considered it. I wouldn’t tell him he was an idiot to lease the car, but I would certainly tell him I thought it might not be a great idea. And then I would let it go. And if he went ahead and did it anyway, I would still comment on how nice his new car was. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

🤣🤣🤣

 

I paid for my oldest DD to get a tattoo as her 17th birthday present.  My dad rolled his eyes so hard I thought he might pass out.

Don't care, did it anyway.  And DD didn't care either, she still got it.  And he still loves and supports me and DD anyway.  

 

Exactly!

Just because we might not all always agree on things doesn’t mean it has to affect the relationship!

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

But lots of people would care, and, if you know they wouldn't, you need to not say it. It doesn't mean you aren't close just because you don't want your loved ones dissing your name choice. 

 

That’s a good point. I wouldn’t comment on something like that if I didn’t already have that kind of close relationship with the person. If I had any doubts about how my comment would be received, I would keep quiet for sure!

I think all of these things depend on family dynamics, so there aren’t really right or wrong answers here. 

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Honestly, I genuinely don't understand how not voicing an opinion isn't the same as pretending the opinion doesn't exist.

Honestly, I can't imagine people thinking they have to voice every opinion, lol. 

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

I guess I see it differently because if I had a good reason for feeling he was making a mistake, I would want to tell him, in case he hadn’t considered it. I wouldn’t tell him he was an idiot to lease the car, but I would certainly tell him I thought it might not be a great idea. And then I would let it go. And if he went ahead and did it anyway, I would still comment on how nice his new car was. 

But your son is 19 and presumably much less likely to be aware of the intricacies of leasing and buying cars. My brother has been grown for a long time, so it would be very presumptuous of me to tell him what a bad decision I think it is. I actually was presenting that as an example of a decision that had already been made, because people have posted about expressing disapproval after the fact, but I also would not offer to voice an opinion beforehand to anyone other than my own inexperienced and young adult children. 

So, again, very young adults that you still help with day to day life versus completely grown and independent people who may have kids of their own. Also, depth of personal decisions. "Son, I think your 19-yr-old self should reconsider leasing a car" would probably go over more smoothly than, "Son, I think you are and your wife are making a bad decision by sending your baby to childcare." 

[katilac]

6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

That’s a good point. I wouldn’t comment on something like that if I didn’t already have that kind of close relationship with the person. 

But again, not wanting you to say you hate the name I've chosen does not mean not having a close relationship! 

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Honestly, I hope my children never care if I disapprove of something like that.  I hope they never do.  I hope they grow into adults who have the confidence to be able to stand by their decisions instead of being upset that someone else disapproves of them.  Because someone will ALWAYS disapprove of every decision someone makes.  I hope they grow into adults that can handle that.  

See, I could turn this around and say that I hope my kids grow into adults who can handle making their own decisions without seeking mama's opinion, kwim? I absolutely stand by my decisions, that is a completely separate thing from not wanting to hear the world's opinion about every personal matter. If adult offspring are good with their parents expressing every opinion they have, that's fine. If their not good with it, that's fine also. Which I'm pretty sure we both said upthread. 

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I guess I see it differently because if I had a good reason for feeling he was making a mistake, I would want to tell him, in case he hadn’t considered it. I wouldn’t tell him he was an idiot to lease the car, but I would certainly tell him I thought it might not be a great idea. And then I would let it go. And if he went ahead and did it anyway, I would still comment on how nice his new car was. 

I feel like a lot of this advice comes before kids move out on their own, or are still being financed by their parents. I heard all this stuff about finances, tattoos, whatever, before I left home. I financed my bedroom set and made other bad decisions knowing what my parents thought about my choices because I'd grown up with then telling me. When I moved out and did my own thing, a lot of it was not believing them, a lot of it was not caring and wanting my own independence, and some of it was just me being dumb. I have a super close relationship with my mom and I credit a lot of it to her letting me figure out my own dumbness when I was a young adult. In contrast, I have another relative who had/has an opinion, often negative, about everything I do. I tend to limit what I share with that person because a lot of times I just don't want to deal with the back and forth. They assume I haven't thought it out and treat me as if I'm still about 15yo. They may have even had good points (don't get a dog at this point in your life!), but I can't handle constant advice I'm not asking for or disapproval of my choices because I'm well into middle age and have a way different family culture than I did growing up.

Also, all jokes aside, I really, really recommend not telling any adult you don't like the name choice for their upcoming baby, close relative or no. It really sucks for some of us to hear, "Ugh, Mary?! Why would you pick that? It's so old fashioned and plain!" *not my kid's real name

[prairiewindmomma]

HSL, no need to answer on this, but by any chance do you have ASD/quirkiness in your FOO? The answers you give remind me a lot of those that family members on the spectrum give. Those relationships operate under different social rules, and it’s much easier to brush off the direct and bluntness of what is said. Likewise, my aunt who lived in the NE a lot gets more of a free pass. She says things that would cause A Stir under Midwest Nice rules.

I grew up Midwest nice with a touch of southern. I feel confident in making my decisions and have made a lot of decisions my parents didn’t approve of—big ones like leaving my law practice to have kids, homeschooling, moving cross-country (twice) as well as little ones. They never needed to comment on those, though because I didn’t solicit their opinions. It’s one thing to welcome their input, and another to just share it, iykwim. IMO, Midwest Nice is not about pretending to like someone’s choices—it’s about respecting them enough to let them make them without them being criticized.

[katilac]

Right now BakersDozen is saying, thank goodness these people have gotten distracted!

[EmseB]

27 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Honestly, I hope my children never care if I disapprove of something like that.  I hope they never do.  I hope they grow into adults who have the confidence to be able to stand by their decisions instead of being upset that someone else disapproves of them.  Because someone will ALWAYS disapprove of every decision someone makes.  I hope they grow into adults that can handle that.  

I have plenty of confidence in my decisions. It still doesn't mean that I want to argue the finer points with my FOO or hear about how homeschool kids don't get enough socialization or whatever. And pass the bean dip doesn't exactly make people closer. People always disapprove, you're right. I have a different relationship with my mom than most all people. It's one thing for the neighbor lady to tell your 10yo his mom should put him in real school. People disapprove. It's another thing for the same kid to hear that from a relative that they are expected to see multiple times a year and can't share successes with because they aren't in real school. Trust me when I say, these people think they're doing what's best and saying their piece because I need to hear it because I need the advice.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like what you're talking about is the kind of real, serious disapproval that would affect a relationship. Rolling ones eyes at a tattoo once, okay, all in family jesting. Asking if she's had it removed every time you're at a family gathering? Or even hearing one how disgusting and ugly tattoos make people look? From a close relative? I don't blame a lack of confidence for having that sting and not just roll off like nothing.

ETA: it also occurs to me, if you hope they never care about your disapproval, what's the point? Why express it to them?

Edited September 19, 2019 by EmseB

[prairiewindmomma]

I am putting off dinner as well....we may just forage tonight among the leftovers.

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

You are right I am not talking about very serious disapproval, nothing that would have a 10yr old kid afraid to share success with their grandparent about.  The decision I mentioned my kid made that I was super angry about why she made it.....I have never not once been anything less than happy and proud of her success in life that is directly related to that decision.  And no, I am certainly not ever talking about berating or harping on things like asking of a tattoo has been removed every single time you meet.  That's not expressing an opinion, that's just being a butt.  Seriously, it's over and done with, everyone move on.  Holding grudges and holding constant disapproval and judgement and negativity will never ever produce anything good.  

 

Why express any disapproval ever?  Because holding in negativity and letting things fester is never healthy.  Air it all out, be honest, be rational, then be done.  

Trust me when I say the people I'm talking about have the exact same rationale for sharing their thoughts as you do. They don't see themselves as being butts. They don't want to hold in negativity or let things fester (which, if I'm the one with the negative opinion, that's my responsibility to deal with; I can't let something fester and blame someone else that I didn't get to tell them my opinion).

And honestly, everything probably looks fine from an outside perspective. I have just tempered the relationship and what I'm willing to talk about and when. Some info gets filtered through other relatives so I don't have to discuss things. I'm also not talking about a 19yo still being supported by parents. I'm talking about grown people with established, independent lives.

[Catwoman]

43 minutes ago, katilac said:

Honestly, I can't imagine people thinking they have to voice every opinion, lol. 

But your son is 19 and presumably much less likely to be aware of the intricacies of leasing and buying cars. My brother has been grown for a long time, so it would be very presumptuous of me to tell him what a bad decision I think it is. I actually was presenting that as an example of a decision that had already been made, because people have posted about expressing disapproval after the fact, but I also would not offer to voice an opinion beforehand to anyone other than my own inexperienced and young adult children. 

So, again, very young adults that you still help with day to day life versus completely grown and independent people who may have kids of their own. Also, depth of personal decisions. "Son, I think your 19-yr-old self should reconsider leasing a car" would probably go over more smoothly than, "Son, I think you are and your wife are making a bad decision by sending your baby to childcare." 

 

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear — I was responding as if I was talking to an adult sibling, not to my son. 🙂  My brother was 14 years older than me, but I still would have told him if I thought he was making a poor decision, and he would have been fine with it, just as I was always interested in hearing his opinions about important decisions I was making. I think it’s all about mutual respect and also about knowing when it’s time to shut up and let it go. 

And honestly, if my son was a married adult and I thought he was making a lousy parenting decision, I would still discuss it with him. I would certainly acknowledge that the final decision wasn’t mine to make, and I wouldn’t be nasty about it, but I would ask him if he had considered other options. Our family has always been very open with each other about things, and while I like to think I usually make pretty good choices, sometimes I realize otherwise when a family member voices a dissenting opinion. I don’t want to live in a vacuum where everyone smiles and acts like everything is fine and I’m doing the right thing, when they are secretly thinking about how badly I’m messing up. I’d rather have them talk to me about it, because maybe they’re right!

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Trust me when I say the people I'm talking about have the exact same rationale for sharing their thoughts as you do. They don't see themselves as being butts. They don't want to hold in negativity or let things fester (which, if I'm the one with the negative opinion, that's my responsibility to deal with; I can't let something fester and blame someone else that I didn't get to tell them my opinion).

And honestly, everything probably looks fine from an outside perspective. I have just tempered the relationship and what I'm willing to talk about and when. Some info gets filtered through other relatives so I don't have to discuss things. I'm also not talking about a 19yo still being supported by parents. I'm talking about grown people with established, independent lives.

 

But whether your kid is a 19yo living at home or a 25 year-old living in his own home, he’s still your kid. I don’t think there is an age limit on when you can and can’t discuss important things with your own kid. And it goes both ways — my kid can talk to me about anything he thinks I’m messing up, too.

[Catwoman]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Everything this!

 

 

I need to get shrimp out, and go play around with some stickers now! lol

 

Now I want to go play with stickers. 😀

[katilac]

Man, there is really quite the variety of people in the world!

[Catwoman]

39 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I have plenty of confidence in my decisions. It still doesn't mean that I want to argue the finer points with my FOO or hear about how homeschool kids don't get enough socialization or whatever. And pass the bean dip doesn't exactly make people closer. People always disapprove, you're right. I have a different relationship with my mom than most all people. It's one thing for the neighbor lady to tell your 10yo his mom should put him in real school. People disapprove. It's another thing for the same kid to hear that from a relative that they are expected to see multiple times a year and can't share successes with because they aren't in real school. Trust me when I say, these people think they're doing what's best and saying their piece because I need to hear it because I need the advice.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like what you're talking about is the kind of real, serious disapproval that would affect a relationship. Rolling ones eyes at a tattoo once, okay, all in family jesting. Asking if she's had it removed every time you're at a family gathering? Or even hearing one how disgusting and ugly tattoos make people look? From a close relative? I don't blame a lack of confidence for having that sting and not just roll off like nothing.

ETA: it also occurs to me, if you hope they never care about your disapproval, what's the point? Why express it to them?

 

I think happysmileylady and I are talking about completely different situations than the ones you mentioned here. I’m sure we both agree with you that no one should be acting the way you described in your post. That’s not a one-time, one-on-one discussion about something; the people in your examples are just plain nasty and inappropriate, and it sounds like they never know when to let anything go. And the idea that people would say such negative things to a child is just awful!

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

Man, there is really quite the variety of people in the world!

 

Yes, and some of them have stickers that they’re not sharing with the group.

[EmseB]

Just now, Catwoman said:

 

But whether your kid is a 19yo living at home or a 25 year-old living in his own home, he’s still your kid. I don’t think there is an age limit on when you can and can’t discuss important things with your own kid. And it goes both ways — my kid can talk to me about anything he thinks I’m messing up, too.

Just to keep with the homeschooling example because it's easy and understandable: that's all true, but also, it depends on the discussion and how it goes down. My relatives have no concept of homeschooling, just, none. So sitting down and talking about it is something I love if they're really interested. But expressing disapproval in a serious discussion with me as a 38yo about to have her 5th kid? Or asking me what's really so bad about the PS? Or even really cautioning me about a tattoo or leasing a car? It's kind of laughable, I think, to try to advise other adults about that kind of stuff beyond, "oh, I got a really good deal here, you should try them."

Like, some people lease cars for financial and circumstantial reasons I know nothing about. It's one thing for me to say, "I was always taught leasing a car isn't good because...how do you make it work to your advantage?" It's another to tell someone all the reasons they are making a mistake by leasing without knowing how it works for them.

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Just to play devil's advocate, I would have appreciated way more guidance from my own parents, as a late teen/early adult, about acceptable and productive ways to run my life.

I feel like their lack of critique, and very abrupt shift to 'oh well, you're an adult now, we don't have a say, whatever you do is OK with us' left me in the young adulthood lurch, and honestly ? Felt like an abdication of parental responsibility. Sure, it's nice that I don't have to hear how I'm stuffing up, but by the same token, if you are stuffing up, isn't a loving parent the best person to set you straight ?

It's why I remain unconvinced that merely cheerleading once a child hits 18, or 21 or whatever - isn't always the best thing for the young adult. Clearly, one should not be micromanaging at this stage - day to day, an adult child's life is their business. But when they make errors with consequence ? To relationships, to their own futures ? Sometimes I think it's kind to provide feedback and guidance. 

 

 

I agree completely!

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Just to keep with the homeschooling example because it's easy and understandable: that's all true, but also, it depends on the discussion and how it goes down. My relatives have no concept of homeschooling, just, none. So sitting down and talking about it is something I love if they're really interested. But expressing disapproval in a serious discussion with me as a 38yo about to have her 5th kid? Or asking me what's really so bad about the PS? Or even really cautioning me about a tattoo or leasing a car? It's kind of laughable, I think, to try to advise other adults about that kind of stuff beyond, "oh, I got a really good deal here, you should try them."

Like, some people lease cars for financial and circumstantial reasons I know nothing about. It's one thing for me to say, "I was always taught leasing a car isn't good because...how do you make it work to your advantage?" It's another to tell someone all the reasons they are making a mistake by leasing without knowing how it works for them.

 

Oh, absolutely! It all depends on who it is and what kind of relationship you have! 🙂

And the car leasing thing — I would probably handle it pretty much the way you said it, and not just blurt out, “Wow, that’s an idiotic thing to do!”  It’s not much of a discussion if it starts with the assumption that the other person is a complete moron, right? And if I thought the person might be offended (or if it wasn’t someone I was close to and I didn’t know how they would react,) I wouldn’t say anything at all. 

[BakersDozen]

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Right now BakersDozen is saying, thank goodness these people have gotten distracted!

You are 100% right. I wasn't even going to use my rare few moments of quiet time before dinner to check back here because my brain just wasn't sure it could handle it right now. But I'm enjoying reading the different family/relationship dynamics!

[Frances]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

I know you are trying to say they don't have to pretend.....but it still sound like you want your loved ones to pretend.   

In my family and my husband’s family it would just so rarely ever come up that it’s simply not an issue. I’m certainly not pretending and as far as I know, they aren’t either. I honestly can’t think of a time in my adult life that either set of parents have expressed disapproval, except perhaps when we used to live close enough to make long distance driving trips home and my MIL would worry constantly about winter weather driving conditions and try to get us to almost never drive. So I guess she disapproved when we drove in less than ideal conditions. But that was about 25 years ago. I’m not even sure what we or they could possibly now do that would cause the other to disapprove. I can’t really think of anything either set of parents have done of which I disapproved. So I’m guessing it’s similar for them. But of course I could be totally wrong and they are just pretending all of the time.