House Rules and Adult Children

[Laura Corin]

4 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

I fear accident an on desolate roads, where they are even more desolate at two in the morning. I fear shopping at a Walmart and coming out to a desolate parking spot because it’s two in the morning  and that gives opportunities for crime,  more so than in a well populated daylight situation.  I see that just about anything can happen at two in the afternoon as happen at two in the morning, but the fact is most places are less populated and very desolate at two or 3 AM, and I think for that reason  I am more nervous about her being out at night.

I can understand that, but at some point she needs to make those decisions for herself. My first child left home to go to university at 17. I had no idea where he was or what he was doing. I just had to trust that I'd taught him a bit of common sense. So far so good.

[Reefgazer]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

Ctd 

 

I’d be very concerned that if you tell her, “no” as to sleeping overnight at a friend’s, the only presumed recourse would be that if she does that you may kick her out (even if you have not threatened to do so).

In that case, she may feel she needs to do “Jake” like preparing behind the scenes: find couches to crash on, shelters for homeless young adults etc., ...

I think it might be better if you start talking about who she’ll stay overnight with at 18 (emphasize that letting people know where one will be is both a courtesy and a safety) and how she’ll message you with her logistics, estimated time of return, when is good from POV of schooling or work and so forth.

(ETA it would be excellent life skills learning. Waterwings toward swimming on her own.) 

(ETA : I suggest:) 

Build up her age 18 first overnight at a friend’s as a rite of passage for both of you.

 Let it be fun and exciting for her.  

And probably acknowledge your own anxiety to her, which is a rite of passage for you. 

OK, what set this off was she giddily told me when she turned 18 she and her friends was going to have a sleepover on a remote beach and I assumed it was camping.   I got all nervous about that because even I wouldn’t go camping there alone -  it’s just too remote for a bunch of young girls or anyone alone.   But it turns out  I misunderstood and they were planning to rent a beach house, which I don’t really have a problem with  because it’s more secure than a campsite.  I do have a problem with worry if she is not home at night.  If I know she is going to be out and safely ensconced somewhere I think I’d be OK with that even though I don’t really like it.  

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

I fear accident an on desolate roads, where they are even more desolate at two in the morning. I fear shopping at a Walmart and coming out to a desolate parking spot because it’s two in the morning  and that gives opportunities for crime,  more so than in a well populated daylight situation.  I see that just about anything can happen at two in the afternoon as happen at two in the morning, but the fact is most places are less populated and very desolate at two or 3 AM, and I think for that reason  I am more nervous about her being out at night.

 

I agree with wee hours being even more likely to be risky for driving than 11pm. I’m not sure of Walmart parking lot.  Police in your area could probably give a realistic local crime incidence.  Some Walmart’s have all night camping and some security and good lighting and are probably fairly safe.

I think you can show graphs (to her) that validate the driving between midnight and 4-5AM greater risk—and it’s why it’s often restricted for graduated driving rules. 

 

 

But I think being at a friend’s house for a “sleep over” and staying there, is probably less risky.  And probably less risky than leaving a friend’s house because of curfew requirement to get home by midnight. 

I am sure that where I live it is safer to stay put at a friend’s house than to drive late.

[Reefgazer]

1 hour ago, QueenCat said:

Rules of mutual respect... You don't have to allow sleepovers at YOUR house, but it would be inappropriate to tell an adult that they can't sleep at someone else's house. That said, it is reasonable to ask her to text you if she is staying out or going to be gone all night. If she comes in late, it is reasonable expect her to come in as quietly as possible.

 Just to clarify:  we have always allowed friends of the kids to sleep over at our house.  I just wanted my kids home in our house that night   And that’s what I meant by no sleepovers; I just mean no sleepovers at someone else’s house, but their friends came here.

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

OK, what set this off was she giddily told me when she turned 18 she and her friends was going to have a sleepover on a remote beach and I assumed it was camping.   I got all nervous about that because even I wouldn’t go camping there alone -  it’s just too remote for a bunch of young girls or anyone alone.   But it turns out  I misunderstood and they were planning to rent a beach house, which I don’t really have a problem with  because it’s more secure than a campsite.  I do have a problem with worry if she is not home at night.  If I know she is going to be out and safely ensconced somewhere I think I’d be OK with that even though I don’t really like it.  

 

I think a safety / courtesy communication about where / with whom she’ll be spending night is very reasonable.   

I don’t actually normally know all the with whom parts, but do know whose home the kids will be spending night at.  And I like to have a phone number of host parents in addition to cell number for Ds.  I’ve only ever used the parent phone number once thus far.  After which I got better check ins direct from Ds. 

The beach house rental with friends idea sounds like a lovely way to celebrate turning 18!

[MysteryJen]

My two oldest kids left for college at 17, so I just had to hope that they used common sense and good judgment. Mostly that worked out okay. 

My dd2 is 17 and drives with friends and they do stay out- generally she is here (sometimes with friends in tow) to sleep no later than 1 am.  She is required to let me know where they are going and text when she gets to her friend's house if she is staying the night there. Sleepovers are safer than teens roaming in the wee hours.

When she first got her license, she had to abide by the graduated licensing rules (and she did) and had to have find my friends enabled on her phone. She built up a huge resevoir of trust by not having discrepancies and being home when she said she was going to be and being where she said she was. We built trust with her by not abusing the privilege of tracking her and not requiring unreasonable curfews or phone calls. She knows if she has practice early or homework, or meets. She is going to be a D1 athlete, it does not help her using us as her alarm or calendar.

When she turned 17, find my friends was turned off and she texts us her plans. She is going to be a senior next year and 18 in the spring. She will still let us know her general plans and put important things on the calendar if I ask her too. Her older siblings practice basic courtesy when they are home- asking in advance if they need a car, letting us know if they will be late, if they will be home for dinner. Sometimes they are better at that than dh. 

You have to learn to separate your anxiety from their life. Kids will spent the majority of their life not in your house under your eye. They should practice that "adulting" thing of late nights, common courtesy for family or roommates, and safe driving while they are home. And you can practice saying, "Drive safely. Have fun" and then turn your thoughts to your own life.

[gardenmom5]

would it help you to have tracking app on her phone?  then you can see where she is, if she's coming home or going somewhere else  - and if she's driven off a road somewhere - it will tell you approx. where.   (it will also tell you about speeding or hard breaking - 2ds has allowed a tracker in his car by his insurance company, as they'll drop his rates as much at 50% if they see he's a safe driver.  - his commute is about ..two miles. and he hates to drive, so doesn't drive very much. and since he just bought a new car - he can do with the rate drop.)

I have it with dudeling - so I know where he is.  (big reason for that.)

[Pen]

 

42 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

You have to learn to separate your anxiety from their life.

 

Yes.  

And it can be very hard to do!

 

 

 

[Reefgazer]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

would it help you to have tracking app on her phone?  then you can see where she is, if she's coming home or going somewhere else  - and if she's driven off a road somewhere - it will tell you approx. where.   (it will also tell you about speeding or hard breaking - 2ds has allowed a tracker in his car by his insurance company, as they'll drop his rates as much at 50% if they see he's a safe driver.  - his commute is about ..two miles. and he hates to drive, so doesn't drive very much. and since he just bought a new car - he can do with the rate drop.)

I have it with dudeling - so I know where he is.  (big reason for that.)

Eh,  those tracker apps seem more spy-ish to me than anything else, and I’d rather not.  I will be OK if she tells me where she is when she’ll be home, like now.  I just don’t like the idea of her staying out all night and I really don’t like the idea of her camping in some remote area with a couple girlfriend.   But I don’t need to know where she is every minut.  I just don’t like the idea of her staying out all night, and I really don’t like the idea of her camping in some remote area with a couple girlfriends.   

Edited July 6, 2019 by Reefgazer

[Pen]

 

17 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

 I just don’t like the idea of her staying out all night,

 

Probably friends’ parents Who’ve let their dc stay overnight with your dc had to get over their own anxieties.  

 

17 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

and I really don’t like the idea of her camping in some remote area with a couple girlfriends.   

 

Try to separate anxiety and reality.

Would a larger, perhaps co-ed group be safer?

 Find out if the area has a record of incidents (rape, murders, muggings, unexplained disappearances or deaths). 

If yes, discuss that with your dd.  If no, get a grip on your own anxiety and rein it in. 

 

[Janeway]

Give her the same rules you would have for an employee who lives in your home. I was a full time live in nanny. If I wanted to stay away for the night, fine. But I could not come in after hours and set off the security system. They did not want people coming and going in the middle of the night. I would not allow her to be out all night before she graduates high school. After that, I would not say just..my rules, bur rather..respect for those you live with. If I am staying with someone, I would not expect to be allowed to stay out all night. 

[Pen]

Wanting children to be safe is normal.

But Too much control can also be damaging.  

Edited July 6, 2019 by Pen

[AngieW in Texas]

It seems weird to even think about having a curfew with legal adults who have completed high school unless you know they have a substance abuse problem and that is a condition for being able to remain in the home.

All three of my adult children are living in my home. There are four of us and only three cars. We have a whiteboard calendar where the kids all write down when their classes and work shifts are. We have to coordinate who is going to have which car and when. I always have the same hours, but the kids generally have different schedules each week. If I pick up tutoring as an additional job to supplement my teaching pay, then I will add my tutoring schedule to the board also because that would change each week.

 

 

[Free Indeed]

Very timely topic and I love all the varying responses. We have 3 adult children, 2 are still in the home, but getting a house together in a month in town to be closer to work, college, and friends. As long as they are being responsible we try not to impose too many rules. I like the analogy of going from rule setting parents to advisors. Such a difficult time and transition, but I’d like to have relationship with these young people I’ve raised and rules aren’t the best path for that in my observation- even if I don’t agree with all their decisions. They know where we stand, and how we believe, it’s their turn to make decisions and have convictions.

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, Janeway said:

Give her the same rules you would have for an employee who lives in your home. I was a full time live in nanny. If I wanted to stay away for the night, fine. But I could not come in after hours and set off the security system. They did not want people coming and going in the middle of the night. I would not allow her to be out all night before she graduates high school. After that, I would not say just..my rules, bur rather..respect for those you live with. If I am staying with someone, I would not expect to be allowed to stay out all night. 

This just seems contradictory. If I was an employee, I absolutely would expect to be able to do whatever I pleased in my time off as long as it did not affect my work. That would include staying out all night, with zero obligations - though not tromping through the house or making noise or being in by a certain time for the security system all makes sense. So which is it?

Regardless, this isn't the sort of relationship I'd want to have with my kids as adults. I want to continue to have a relationship where I can talk to them, where I can give them advice of the sort that would be super inappropriate to give an employee, where I can ask them to pitch in around the house when the household as a whole needs it. I don't want to have to have a transactional or contract-based relationship with them just because they're 18. I want them to continue being members of the family. Being a member of the family is not - or should not - be about controlling someone's adult decisions.

Now, I do think if an adult child is making poor decisions, not living up to general life responsibilities, disrupting the household... then that's a different matter. I don't think anyone has to financially support a 24/7 sofa lounging adult because that's a "life decision." And all young adults are allowed to make some mistakes, to mess up a class or two, to forget to call or text once in awhile.

[Carrie12345]

15 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

OK, what set this off was she giddily told me when she turned 18 she and her friends was going to have a sleepover on a remote beach and I assumed it was camping.   I got all nervous about that because even I wouldn’t go camping there alone -  it’s just too remote for a bunch of young girls or anyone alone.   But it turns out  I misunderstood and they were planning to rent a beach house, which I don’t really have a problem with  because it’s more secure than a campsite.  I do have a problem with worry if she is not home at night.  If I know she is going to be out and safely ensconced somewhere I think I’d be OK with that even though I don’t really like it.  

I’m curious - did the two of you ever have a conversation about the risks of a handful of young girls camping on a remote beach? Or has it all been smooshed into the concept of “sleepovers”?  Because I’d see those two things as VERY separate issues.

We don’t have vast beaches, but we do have vast forests. My teens go traipsing around in small and large numbers all the time during the day.  They also go camping in large groups. But I’d forbid camping in tiny numbers (of any gender) in a remote area while they’re under 18, and have a real serious conversation if they brought it up at just about any age.  Even MY mom brings up concerns when her grown daughters have some nutty ideas, though not quite that nutty, imo.

Risk assessment is important and something that has to be developed.  Merging the concepts of sleepovers and remote camping into the same “problem” doesn’t really allow for realistic assessment. If she’s been given the impression that one is just as dangerous as the other, but she KNOWS that teen girl sleepovers aren’t exactly dangerous, yeah, she may make some big mistakes.

[catz]

I camped as a young adult female regularly with small groups.  I guess I don’t see the issue with that unless it’s in an area with known ongoing issues with crime.  I have some very fond memories of these trips.   At some point you have to trust a young adult’s judgement.   

I have a 15 and an 18 year old.   They self regulate their own sleepovers well and know which nights aren’t appropriate and aren’t useless the next day.   They know to get sleep.  This level of control for a healthy Nt 18 year old wouldn’t occur to me.  I tend to think if you have rules based in anxiety and not logic, they may try to leave the house sooner.   Possibly at the expense of higher ed and career goals.  

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m curious - did the two of you ever have a conversation about the risks of a handful of young girls camping on a remote beach? Or has it all been smooshed into the concept of “sleepovers”?  Because I’d see those two things as VERY separate issues.

We don’t have vast beaches, but we do have vast forests. My teens go traipsing around in small and large numbers all the time during the day.  They also go camping in large groups. But I’d forbid camping in tiny numbers (of any gender) in a remote area while they’re under 18, and have a real serious conversation if they brought it up at just about any age.  Even MY mom brings up concerns when her grown daughters have some nutty ideas, though not quite that nutty, imo.

Risk assessment is important and something that has to be developed.  Merging the concepts of sleepovers and remote camping into the same “problem” doesn’t really allow for realistic assessment. If she’s been given the impression that one is just as dangerous as the other, but she KNOWS that teen girl sleepovers aren’t exactly dangerous, yeah, she may make some big mistakes.

 

Staying overnight at a beach may or may not be dangerous. But it’s clearly not a typical “sleep over.”

I agree that there’s a problem with conflating ideas together.  Both for the mother and also for the daughter it can cause a variety of possible problems. 

That sort of merging and conflation tends to happen with anxiety.  

Anxiety can cause Merging of real life concepts that are different as with a night at a friend’s home and a night in a rented cabin at a remote beach.    

Anxiety also can cause the merging of one idea into an awful-ized mental image of greater risk. For example, where my question of what is the concern @Reefgazer has about her dd spending a whole night at a friend’s house came back as having merged into an image of a problem (perhaps an attack by a violent stranger ) at 3AM in a Walmart parking lot.

It’s an anxiety driven fear to imagine a problem in a parking lot rather than a non anxiety driven image of the teens happily sitting around talking or playing games or watching a movie and finally falling asleep at the friend’s house.  Somewhere in between might be an anxious image of the teen child getting confused trying to find the bathroom at 3AM in a stranger’s house, falling and needing to go to an emergency room (and ending up paraplegic?) (even if just needing some stitches for a cut it’s still an unlikely awful-ized image driven by anxiety—but not one in which the location changed as well). 

Ironically, the stress of  anxiety may even make having a problem of some sort more likely thus feeding the emotion of anxiety for the future.  

There are some helpful techniques for dealing with such anxieties.  

Anxiety is something I (and some others) on these forums deal with.  One of the first helps is simply to recognize it. To understand that it’s in oneself. 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Pen

[TechWife]

23 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

would it help you to have tracking app on her phone?  then you can see where she is, if she's coming home or going somewhere else  - and if she's driven off a road somewhere - it will tell you approx. where.   (it will also tell you about speeding or hard breaking - 2ds has allowed a tracker in his car by his insurance company, as they'll drop his rates as much at 50% if they see he's a safe driver.  - his commute is about ..two miles. and he hates to drive, so doesn't drive very much. and since he just bought a new car - he can do with the rate drop.)

I have it with dudeling - so I know where he is.  (big reason for that.)

 

I have such mixed thoughts about GPS trackers.

I think the technology is fantastic, and the idea of being able to find someone if they are lost or go missing is really appealing. They are a great tool for young children and people with cognitive impairments, such as dementia.

I wouldn't have any qualms about tracking an adult if the adult requested that I do so. I would not compel a typical adult to have a tracker that I can use. It would be a gross invasion of privacy and it would also add tremendously to my stress level. One of the better things about having an adult son is that I don't have to keep up with his every move!

I have always been against tracking by outside entities, such as insurance companies. Strangers don't need to know where I or anyone in my family is at a given point in time. I see that as a safety issue, especially when it comes to regular traffic patterns. I also take issue with health care apps that share data with insurance companies - too much personal information given to people who do not need it. The enticements are great - lower your insurance cost, get personalized info that helps yoou manage your health, we can check in on you when your blood sugar is too low, etc. - all are great ideas. But, once these companies have the information, they can do whatever they want to with it (including selling it) and it is not necessarily secure. There is a great deal of risk in providing personal information in the form of data.

 

[hippiemamato3]

5 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

Because the next day can be totally ruined for family activities by one sleep deprived kid! Seriously, a couple of my kids couldn’t handle lack of sleep well at all and the effect was that a one night sleepover could cost us an entire weekend. 

OP, do you still pay for dd’s phone service? Require a “find my friends” app until she is paying that bill on her own. That way you know where she is when she is out late.

If she’s headed off to college soon, you’re fighting a losing battle with the curfew now. Just keep enjoying those late night talks. 

At 18, I’d start transferring expenses to her, if she has no plans to continue serious studies. Phone, auto, insurance, cost sharing on groceries and utilities, maybe rent... you can figure out what might have the desired effect. Once she gets a real job, and must learn to support herself financially, it may not take long for her to realize that *actually* being a grownup doesn’t leave time for staying out with friends all night. 

I really don't understand why staying out all night with friends seems to be a ''punishable" offense to several on this board. It's part of being a kid, it's part of being an adolescent, and it's part of being a young adult to stay overnight with friends. This is bizarre to me. Charging someone rent as a way to prevent them from staying out overnight is just...odd. 

[gardenmom5]

37 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

I have such mixed thoughts about GPS trackers.

I think the technology is fantastic, and the idea of being able to find someone if they are lost or go missing is really appealing. They are a great tool for young children and people with cognitive impairments, such as dementia.

I wouldn't have any qualms about tracking an adult if the adult requested that I do so. I would not compel a typical adult to have a tracker that I can use. It would be a gross invasion of privacy  

 

I'm not suggestion putting a tracker on someone's phone without their knowledge or permission.  it was merely a "honey, I have a lot of anxiety, and this will let me see where you are, etc. so I know you're safe" suggestion for the OP.  those phone apps require BOTH people to approve it.

I only have it on my minor child's phone, since he usually has it with him.  I won't go into the reasons why - but those reasons were never an issue with his siblings, and they are related to HIS safety. 

[DawnM]

6 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

Because the next day can be totally ruined for family activities by one sleep deprived kid! Seriously, a couple of my kids couldn’t handle lack of sleep well at all and the effect was that a one night sleepover could cost us an entire weekend. 

OP, do you still pay for dd’s phone service? Require a “find my friends” app until she is paying that bill on her own. That way you know where she is when she is out late.

If she’s headed off to college soon, you’re fighting a losing battle with the curfew now. Just keep enjoying those late night talks. 

At 18, I’d start transferring expenses to her, if she has no plans to continue serious studies. Phone, auto, insurance, cost sharing on groceries and utilities, maybe rent... you can figure out what might have the desired effect. Once she gets a real job, and must learn to support herself financially, it may not take long for her to realize that *actually* being a grownup doesn’t leave time for staying out with friends all night. 

 

My kids actually do sleep at a sleepover usually.  But it wouldn't cost an entire weekend for us.   We aren't dependent on everyone getting a huge amount of sleep.  Heck, I even nap sometimes if I am really tired.

And I can't tell you the amount of nights I stayed out until 2am with friends on a WORK night and got up at 6:30 and headed to work.  I 100% paid all my bills.  I was a grown-up, but I still had fun.  And by 2am, I mean not drinking or partying in the traditional sense, I went to comedy clubs, the beach, game nights, etc.....we were a social bunch.

[Pen]

On 7/6/2019 at 12:21 PM, Reefgazer said:

 Just to clarify:  we have always allowed friends of the kids to sleep over at our house.  I just wanted my kids home in our house that night   And that’s what I meant by no sleepovers; I just mean no sleepovers at someone else’s house, but their friends came here.

 

 

Separating out the remote location issue: 

your dc will probably be every bit as safe sleeping over at their friends’ houses as their friends are at your house. 

Just as likely to get some amount of sleep, even if not ideal.

and less likely to be on road shortly before the city graduated driver midnight curfew time. 

[Scarlett]

On 7/5/2019 at 9:43 PM, Reefgazer said:

Well, I have been able to be generous with the time-home rule because she is a responsible kid in general.  But I am uncomfortable with her staying out all night and I would not like this to become a routine just because she turns 18.  I am not sure how to negotiate that or the reasoning for that potential rule here, but I was wondering how others handles their young adult kids.                         

Well, I think that is the very reason curfews exist.   Because many many kids.....even the very best of kids.....will at some point take advantage and push the envelop.  

My young adults have an 11:00 weeks day and midnight weekend curfew.  We are NOT rigid  with that if something is going on that requires being out longer.  But it Is a good base line.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by Scarlett
Added the important word not.

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

My kids actually do sleep at a sleepover usually.  But it wouldn't cost an entire weekend for us.   We aren't dependent on everyone getting a huge amount of sleep.  Heck, I even nap sometimes if I am really tired.

And I can't tell you the amount of nights I stayed out until 2am with friends on a WORK night and got up at 6:30 and headed to work.  I 100% paid all my bills.  I was a grown-up, but I still had fun.  And by 2am, I mean not drinking or partying in the traditional sense, I went to comedy clubs, the beach, game nights, etc.....we were a social bunch.

my friend's dd would go to sleep at 9pm.  didn't matter how many giggly elementary girls there were giggling merrily away, she would climb in her sleeping bag and go to sleep.  it was unreal.

even 1dd had to go to sleep at a reasonable hour - even when other girls were present.

 

[Melissa in Australia]

my 4 oldest children were not living at home at 18. the oldest went to University at 17 - the next 2 went to a remote location for work at 18 and my dd went to university at just turned 18.

 when my dd comes home from uni for the winter break ( which is right now) she is just visiting. she goes out and stays out for the whole weekend every weekend . I no longer have any say on her coming home or not - she is just visiting me not living at home. She goes out and stays with a bunch of similar aged people who are setting up some sort of religious community group in another town - it is not my religion but she is an adult now no longer living at home just visiting home for a few weeks.

 my older boys have come home for visits and brought friends over for a few days- we live in a great location for holidays right by the ocean and a river and the bush. They all know the house rules of no boys and girls sharing beds unless they have a marriage certificate.  They fully respect that. what they do in their own life is there business but we have house rules and they stick with them. 

 It is nice having them visit.

[DawnM]

16 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

A reasonable transition to taking on adult responsibilities isn’t odd, it’s normal. It’s not a punishment or preventative, but it is true that once a person is responsible for supporting oneself, and often eventually a family, priorities naturally change. 

If OP’s daughter is eager to be an adult, with adult privileges, then it might be time to begin the transition. Again, it’s not weird, it’s a normal phase of growing into an independent adult. 

 

But I think some of us think it is odd to NOT have some late nights out and fun, even as adults.  I do.  

[TechWife]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm not suggestion putting a tracker on someone's phone without their knowledge or permission.  it was merely a "honey, I have a lot of anxiety, and this will let me see where you are, etc. so I know you're safe" suggestion for the OP.  those phone apps require BOTH people to approve it.

I only have it on my minor child's phone, since he usually has it with him.  I won't go into the reasons why - but those reasons were never an issue with his siblings, and they are related to HIS safety. 

e

I think asking to do it is an invasion of privacy and inappropriate for a healthy adult relationship.

Knowing where someone is doesn't mean that they are safe. That's another risk of relying on this technology, a false sense of security.

Doing this for the reason you stated makes it the adult child's responsibility to alleviate the parents' concern. If the adult child says no, then it becomes the "fault" of the adult child that the parent is anxious. It's not a good thing to ask others to take on management of our anxieties to the extent that we require knowledge of their location at all times, better to address the anxiety separate from making others responsible for relieving it (not always an easy thing to do, i recognize). In fact, knowledge of where the adult daughter is may not relieve anxiety, but instead it may promote more anxiety if the daughter is in a location that the parent isn't familiar with or doesn't approve of.

I don't see a problem with having it on a minor chid's phone, like I said, they can be helpful for children.

Edited July 8, 2019 by TechWife

[J-rap]

I think a lot of this kind of stuff depends on the child's personality, etc.   I suggested earlier that I don't think 18 is a magical age where suddenly a teen is 100% responsible.  It's nice to have the type of relationship as a parent where we can still step in at that age and offer advice and guidance.  (Even my 90-year-old mother would step in and offer ME advice from time to time.  🙂)   We set clear boundaries when our kids were young, and by the time they were in their mid-teens, they were fairly independent in their decision-making.  We let them travel alone to Latin American and Europe by the time they were 17 because we trusted them enough to make good and safe decisions.  But, we also had it pretty easy I think because we happened to have kids who didn't push boundaries too much, and they tended to over-think things rather than act impulsively.  If we had the kind of a child who acted more impulsively at that age, I'm sure we would have wanted to step in more often and guide more closely.  

[marbel]

13 hours ago, DawnM said:

<snip>

And I can't tell you the amount of nights I stayed out until 2am with friends on a WORK night and got up at 6:30 and headed to work.  I 100% paid all my bills.  I was a grown-up, but I still had fun.  And by 2am, I mean not drinking or partying in the traditional sense, I went to comedy clubs, the beach, game nights, etc.....we were a social bunch.

I was thinking the same thing! As a working young adult, living on my own (well, shared apartment), supporting myself, I had loads of very late nights, sometimes ended up staying over with a friend, even going to work in her clothes the next day.  Sometimes there was drinking and partying; tired and hung over or not, I was up and out for work on time. 

But my parents were not expecting me home. They were not going to be worried if I wasn't home by 2, or not at home when they got up in the morning. 

 

[DawnM]

Thought of this thread last night as my 19 year old came home after midnight.  In our last house, coming home late wasn't as big of an issue parking-wise.  But we are now in a single car driveway and not allowed to park overnight on the street (something I didn't think about when we bought the house.)

So we had to work out the details of where he could park since my husband had to leave for work at 6am.

But otherwise, I was glad he had fun with friends.  

[JustEm]

I can't imagine trying to control what an adult child does even if they are still living at home.  Being quiet when they come in at 2am so they don't wake other people up is reasonable but not allowing them to stay the night at other people's houses is silly IMHO.  Had my parents held the fact that I was still dependent on them over me as a way to control me we would not have the great relationship we have now.   

But they are the ones living under my roof now, does that mean I get to make rules for them 🙂

[BlsdMama]

On 7/5/2019 at 8:50 PM, Reefgazer said:

So, my DD is a social butterfly and out every night with her friends.  She has no curfew imposed by us, and as long as she stays rested and keeps up with schoolwork and so on, she can stay out without curfew as long as she keeps it reasonable.  I have never allowed sleepovers, though, so I expect her home at night by some not-insane hour.  But the city where we lives sets a midnight curfew on drivers under 18, so she is in by midnight because she takes the car when she goes out.  She has already been joking-not joking about how when she turns 18 she's going to stay out all night and have as many sleepovers as she wants.  I don't know how I feel about that.

 

Do you have house rules/curfew for your 18 year or older children?  Regardless of your answer, what is your reasoning for your standards/rules? 

Similar to you, we've never needed a curfew.  DD #1 wasn't a night owl.  DS #2 just naturally came home at sane times.  He has lived at home this semester and he gets home when he gets home.  He doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs, and is generally home at a decent time unless he had reasonable plans or work.  He's 20 and moving out in three weeks. I think I'd feel silly imposing a curfew on him.  But, that said, we've never had a reason to impose rules on him.  He's respectful, texts when he'll be late.  He texts me often about being gone.  He was gone when we got home from church yesterday (and he attends a different church) so he texted and said, "Hey - will be gone all day.  Going with friends to water park."   So, he acts like an adult, so no, we don't impose much for rules because of this.

Now, DD 17 is the first to be VERY social.  We don't have a curfew.  Like you, our state imposes that she can't drive after midnight.  We do allow overnights for HER (only) but only with friends whom we know well and know their families.  I can think of two families we've allowed and we know all the members of their family and like them. 😉 But we did not allow overnights until she was 16.  

She runs things by us.  We reserve the right to nix something.  We are going to sit down and pound out how many nights a week is reasonable.  She is dating a (very) nice young man now and that makes for a LOT more reasons to go out and it's getting to be too much because if she goes out with the girls 1-2 nights, then with him or him/group 1-2 nights, then a Bible study on Tuesday night, or coffee with someone. blah, blah, blah, it gets to be that we don't get to spend time with her and family time is important to guard too.  She is't grown/flown yet.  She does work and she did college classes last year and will this, so we really have limited time with her and late teens is a crucial period to have TIME to sit, relax, play, talk with them.  

I would say there is a world of difference between a newly turned 18yo and an almost 21 year old, and, as you can see, we treat them VERY differently.

Our rules revolve around a commitment to making time for family and family also respecting that you want/need time for friends.
Expectations to come home at a decent time are flexible dependent on activty, which friends, and what you have for commitments for the following day/week.

At the end of the day, each family member IS accountable to the other family members and there is respect and kindness that must exist.  Saying, "I'll do what I want regardless of your feelings or input," would go over like a lead balloon here - from ANYONE.  That's not how family treats one another.   And then there is the whole, "Um, my house/my rules thing," but we try not to play that card, because it gets a oppositional reaction that goads them into, "Fine! I'll move out."  Veiled threats and power plays are not received well by teens.  There are better ways to work that relationship out that are proactive.


 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, hjffkj said:

I can't imagine trying to control what an adult child does even if they are still living at home.  Being quiet when they come in at 2am so they don't wake other people up is reasonable but not allowing them to stay the night at other people's houses is silly IMHO.  Had my parents held the fact that I was still dependent on them over me as a way to control me we would not have the great relationship we have now.   

But they are the ones living under my roof now, does that mean I get to make rules for them 🙂

 

Some rules, yes.

it’s not a totally black and white thing   There are greys too

IMO

Parents could establish their  own home as a ____ free zone (smoking, for example, whether tobacco or pot, and even if legal for the dc age in the area).  Or the blank could be guns or pesticides .

One could even refuse to allow them to leave parent home for safety of them and others if they were intoxicated — and also because parent could be held liable. 

One could refuse to let them live at ones  home if they were drug addicted (even if they used off parental property), or behaving violently.

Etc etc etc...

However, not allowing a “sleep over” seems like way too much parental controllingness     where the reasons for it are really just the parent feeling anxious or uncomfortable .  

Imo it would be a different matter if there were a significant child centered reason for it— like the child had a serious medical condition she weren’t able to manage on her own and the friends’ family could not help during the overnight (maybe needing a urinary catheter to be able to pee and the dc could not do it herself , or indwelling heart tube requiring special care, or post surgery sutures needing care beyond the child’s own ability...)    ...  

Or maybe a child on the spectrum who could only handle short social visits without becoming destructive to property, self, or others....  

...  

But then in these cases one might be actively working to get the dc more able and capable to be independent.  

[hippiemamato3]

13 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

A reasonable transition to taking on adult responsibilities isn’t odd, it’s normal. It’s not a punishment or preventative, but it is true that once a person is responsible for supporting oneself, and often eventually a family, priorities naturally change. 

If OP’s daughter is eager to be an adult, with adult privileges, then it might be time to begin the transition. Again, it’s not weird, it’s a normal phase of growing into an independent adult. 

I honestly don't see sleeping at friend's houses as an 'adult privilege' since most kids start doing that in elementary school or before. 

[JustEm]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Some rules, yes.

it’s not a totally black and white thing   There are greys too

IMO

Parents could establish their  own home as a ____ free zone (smoking, for example, whether tobacco or pot, and even if legal for the dc age in the area).  Or the blank could be guns or pesticides .

One could even refuse to allow them to leave parent home for safety of them and others if they were intoxicated — and also because parent could be held liable. 

One could refuse to let them live at ones  home if they were drug addicted (even if they used off parental property), or behaving violently.

Etc etc etc...

However, not allowing a “sleep over” seems like way too much parental controllingness     where the reasons for it are really just the parent feeling anxious or uncomfortable .  

Imo it would be a different matter if there were a significant child centered reason for it— like the child had a serious medical condition she weren’t able to manage on her own and the friends’ family could not help during the overnight (maybe needing a urinary catheter to be able to pee and the dc could not do it herself , or indwelling heart tube requiring special care, or post surgery sutures needing care beyond the child’s own ability...)    ...  

Or maybe a child on the spectrum who could only handle short social visits without becoming destructive to property, self, or others....  

...  

But then in these cases one might be actively working to get the dc more able and capable to be independent.  

 

I agree with all of this. 

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

I honestly don't see sleeping at friend's houses as an 'adult privilege' since most kids start doing that in elementary school or before. 

I don't know about most kids.  I didn't let mine sleep at other people's houses.  And over the years I have seen many parents on this board who didn't.  

[BlsdMama]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don't know about most kids.  I didn't let mine sleep at other people's houses.  And over the years I have seen many parents on this board who didn't.  

I was one of these - chalk it up to a cautious mama.  Definitely.

That said, while DS and DD #1 never spent the night at anyone's house, DS did campouts.  Granted his dad was always present with two exceptions out of probably 30+.
We reconsidered for DD #3 because of several reasons - 1. We knew the family extremely well.  DS and DH had done campouts at their house previously.  2. She's one of those kids that goes to bed early at sleepovers, lol.  3. She just has a lot of common sense and we broadened our permission to another friend as we got to know their family and she just spent a week in Michigan in dorms for a campout.  I just see the vulnerability (in the worst case scenario) of a 12 yo very different than a 17yo.  But, I will say, I don't think DD spent the night before 14yo and I knew the family wouldn't advocate for anything against our beliefs, they were respectful, etc.    I honestly STILL wouldn't let my littles (under 13-14) spend the night at someone's house - too much room for foolishness or worse.

But, at 18, it's trickier.  I think it depends on the kid, the parents, and which friend.  I STILL wouldn't give a broad A-Okay to any friend, any night, any time, no accountability.  

To me?  The line is arbitrarily drawn at high school student vs. college student. 

But, I would expect a college student to be utterly respectful.  My DS lived on his own for two school years.  He's been home for 5 months and he's moving out to his apartment in 3 weeks.  He wouldn't spend the night anywhere without telling me where he was going  and when he expected to be back.  He knows I'd worry.  It's basic respect.  Oddly?  I don't check in on him at school to make sure he went home.  I recognize the inconsistencies. 😉 It's good.

 

[Scarlett]

15 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I was one of these - chalk it up to a cautious mama.  Definitely.

That said, while DS and DD #1 never spent the night at anyone's house, DS did campouts.  Granted his dad was always present with two exceptions out of probably 30+.
We reconsidered for DD #3 because of several reasons - 1. We knew the family extremely well.  DS and DH had done campouts at their house previously.  2. She's one of those kids that goes to bed early at sleepovers, lol.  3. She just has a lot of common sense and we broadened our permission to another friend as we got to know their family and she just spent a week in Michigan in dorms for a campout.  I just see the vulnerability (in the worst case scenario) of a 12 yo very different than a 17yo.  But, I will say, I don't think DD spent the night before 14yo and I knew the family wouldn't advocate for anything against our beliefs, they were respectful, etc.    I honestly STILL wouldn't let my littles (under 13-14) spend the night at someone's house - too much room for foolishness or worse.

But, at 18, it's trickier.  I think it depends on the kid, the parents, and which friend.  I STILL wouldn't give a broad A-Okay to any friend, any night, any time, no accountability.  

To me?  The line is arbitrarily drawn at high school student vs. college student. 

But, I would expect a college student to be utterly respectful.  My DS lived on his own for two school years.  He's been home for 5 months and he's moving out to his apartment in 3 weeks.  He wouldn't spend the night anywhere without telling me where he was going  and when he expected to be back.  He knows I'd worry.  It's basic respect.  Oddly?  I don't check in on him at school to make sure he went home.  I recognize the inconsistencies. 😉 It's good.

 

Yes.  Thank you.  By 14 I did let ds spend the night a few times.....by then I figured he was old enough to report any attempts of abuse of any kind.  I was just super cautious.  Most abuse is from trusted family or friends.  I just decided to not risk it.  

But of course he is 19 years old now.  LOL....he rarely WANTS to spend the night elsewhere.   But if he did I would have not issue with it.  He thinks when he is on his own I will still fret and worry if he is at his house or not.  I have news for him.  I am ready to let him go in that sense.  I do not for one minute believe I will sit awake wondering if he has made it home to his own apartment or not.  It is just different when you are waiting for them to show up at the house in which you live.

[hippiemamato3]

6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don't know about most kids.  I didn't let mine sleep at other people's houses.  And over the years I have seen many parents on this board who didn't.  

I don't think this board is a typical demographic for this, but I could be wrong. Parents here are a lot more conservative than I see on other boards or in real life. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

I don't think this board is a typical demographic for this, but I could be wrong. Parents here are a lot more conservative than I see on other boards or in real life. 

Agreed. I do know a small pocket of people who do not permit sleepovers at any age, but they are all homeschoolers. So I have heard of never permitting sleepovers, but TBH, it always seemed odd to me as a blanket prohibition. 

[Katy]

We have this discussion every 3-6 months.  It typically breaks down to one of three positions:

• Absolutely no curfew or restrictions whatsoever.  Aghast that you would even consider something like that for an adult.  Who do you think you are?  These are typically liberal people from high cost of living areas where kids are expected to live with parents well into their 30's.
• Absolute lock down.  My house, my rules.  These tend to be conservative parents from low cost of living areas who see living with your parents as a privilege not a right. If the child doesn't like it, it shouldn't take him more than 3 months of work to save up enough to move out on their own to a safe location.
• Somewhere in the middle.  I don't want to control you but I resent worry and interrupted sleep.  Let's work out something where we both feel good about this.  Perhaps it's a curfew or a time to text your location by.

[Katy]

14 minutes ago, Quill said:

Agreed. I do know a small pocket of people who do not permit sleepovers at any age, but they are all homeschoolers. So I have heard of never permitting sleepovers, but TBH, it always seemed odd to me as a blanket prohibition. 

 

I think it's increasingly common in evangelical and LDS circles.  There are some LDS moms on YouTube who have their kids in public school but don't allow sleepovers.  I don't know anyone in the evangelical committee community who is like that who doesn't home school though.  It's a "my job is to protect you" sheltering thing.  I also know a couple people who work with child abuse cases (a therapist, an attorney, a cop) who aren't particularly religious but have heard multiple stories of children who were sexually abused or groomed or exposed to porn by a creepy adult at sleepovers who ban it for their own kids, but I don't think that's common.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Katy
autocorrect is dumb

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I think it's increasingly common in evangelical and LDS circles.  There are some LDS moms on YouTube who have their kids in public school but don't allow sleepovers.  I don't know anyone in the evangelical committee who is like that who doesn't home school though.  It's a "my job is to protect you" sheltering thing.  I also know a couple people who work with child abuse cases (a therapist, an attorney, a cop) who aren't particularly religious but have heard multiple stories of children who were sexually abused or groomed or exposed to porn by a creepy adult at sleepovers who ban it for their own kids, but I don't think that's common.

 

It was also possibly a Tiger Mom book thing for a while in some circles.  

[Farrar]

I can respect a parent not allowing sleepovers for their minor kids, even though I made a different decision. But that's not the topic at hand. I mean, I cannot imagine trying to tell a responsible 20 yo living at home or home from college for the summer that they can't stay over with a friend or go camping or on a weekend trip with some friends. And some of the concerns being brought up about doing so seem either wildly conflated with other things (an adult staying over with a friend isn't at risk of being mugged in a parking lot in the middle of the night) or are really overly controlling for an adult. I mean, is the argument, I don't let my 12 yos spend the night away, therefore I'm not going to let my 20 yo? Because I'm not especially swayed by that either.

[teachermom2834]

I can’t get my head around the level of control either. My kids are respectful and I was strict and conservative when they were growing up but I just can’t see it going anywhere good or healthy to try to control them at 19 and 21. Honestly I bite my tongue a lot. I would rather they drive a long distance during the day than do a road trip overnight for example. But they know I think that because they grew up with me. So I bite my tongue so that they continue to tell me when they do stuff and I ask them to let me know when they arrive. If I fuss too much they just won’t tell me. Not because they are jerks but because that is what humans tend to do in these situations. 

I also cannot believe the level of obedience y’all have with young adults, too. I get “my house my rules” but there is no way it wouldn’t cause conflict to be so restrictive with my adult kids. I swear I read all the parenting books and was intentional about character training and all that but my adults still aren’t that obedient. LOL. I’m not entirely serious...my kids are absolutely awesome and successful and good citizens but I just didn’t train them well enough to be quite that compliant. 

I will also note there is some freedom in letting them go. The decisions are theirs. Of course if something tragic happened it would impact me but it wouldn’t be my fault. There is a difference there. 

[Joker]

I didn't allow sleepovers when they were little, but my dc did start doing so in the teenage years. I honestly can't imagine a childhood (teenagehood?) without them. Gender hasn't been a big issue here either as both of my dc are part of the LGBT community. They both have a close set of friends and they stay with each other from time to time. Both dc are considerate of us though and let us know their plans and where they will be. 

I had a lot of anxiety as well and it went into overdrive when ds went to college last year but we all survived. Things are good now because I know it's all a part of them growing up and me letting go. Holding on too tight will not benefit any of us. Ds still often even asks permission when home on breaks and I remind him that he just needs to keep us informed but not ask if it's ok. It's a process for all of us.

Strangely enough, without ever having a curfew or rules on this, they are both usually always home before midnight. It's just not a big deal because it's never been an issue. 

I would think any teen/young adult who hasn't been allowed to stay overnight with friends to be giddy with the idea of being an adult and doing so. I would probably start loosening the reigns a bit now so it wouldn't be so abrupt. 

[Mbelle]

We don't do curfews at all.  For  my over 18 dd I just say it is a courtesy to let us know when you will be home and  for safety where you plan to be. If it will be really late I prefer they sleep over at the closest friends house and not drive home till the morning. Really this is not an issue in our home at all.   I'm generally happy that my kids have friends and go out and they are happy to tell me about it

edited:  I limited sleepovers for my young kids to grandparents and 1 friend, as they got up to teen years then we broadened the circle.  

Edited July 9, 2019 by Mbelle

[katilac]

On 7/6/2019 at 6:10 PM, HeighHo said:

My guess if she's out and about between midnight and three, she'll be pulled over enough that the joy of 'freedom' is going to be muted.   

By the police? I've never found that getting pulled over frequently late at night is a thing, certainly not for no reason. Every bloody ticket I've ever gotten has been during the day, lol, and I don't think I've ever been pulled over at night. dh did get pulled over once between midnight and three, but it wasn't for no reason, he was speeding (but wound up not getting a ticket). 

Is that common in some areas, for the police to pull you over, what, just because it's late? Maybe in more rural areas? Because it may not be New York but my city never sleeps, the roads are far from empty at any time of night (even by us in the 'burbs).  

On 7/7/2019 at 10:48 PM, TechWife said:

I think asking to do it is an invasion of privacy and inappropriate for a healthy adult relationship.

Knowing where someone is doesn't mean that they are safe. That's another risk of relying on this technology, a false sense of security.

 

And knowing where the phone is does not actually equate to knowing where the person is, lol. Teenagers are not, in actuality, inseparable from their phones. 

[Shoeless]

16 hours ago, hjffkj said:

But they are the ones living under my roof now, does that mean I get to make rules for them 🙂

 

Ha!  Try it and report back on the results.