How to get my husband out of this line of work?

[Condessa]

My dh is a public prosecutor who specializes in sex crimes and minor victims.  He has been doing this for eight years and is really, really good at it.  And it is eating him up emotionally.  I am worried about him.  I have suggested he ask his boss to give him a variety of cases instead of all of these ones, but he won’t do it—he says he couldn’t take the guilt if a defendant got off to hurt more kids because a less experienced attorney took one of his cases and lost.  All his experience is in criminal law, which means doing what he does as a prosecutor, or going to the other side and defending criminals, which would not be much help.  I don’t know if switching to private law is even an option—maybe if he was going for the kind of job you get straight out of school.  He worked as a legal clerk for a private law firm pre-bar and hated it (“All I do is argue over other people’s money and help people who used to love each other try to ruin one another’s lives.”) but it wasn’t soul-eating like this.  We still have $25,000 of law school debt left.  Being a public employee, he makes far less than his private law counterparts, but with the promise of a great pension program if he works in this field for 30 years (or 25 if a possible bill goes through in our state).  That was always our plan, but I am becoming convinced that another 22 years, or 17, is untenable.

Some ideas: He taught a class at the community college last term, and enjoyed it.  However, he actually made less than minimum wage with preparation and grading time.  It would be somewhat better with repeating classes and less prep, but still very low.  I assume teaching at a university might pay better.  How does one become a professor?  Would getting some more experience teaching at the local cc help to go that direction?  He is also a really excellent writer, and I believe he could succeed as a professional author if he could finish a book and get in with a publisher—but the deeper under stress he goes with work, the less he writes.  If we had a large enough savings to live on for a while, I could try to convince him to quit and try writing for a set period of time, but we have always thrown most of our assets at paying off debt—and I doubt I could get him to go for that.  He is very risk averse.  The most likely option, in my view, would be to go back to our old town.  His old boss is retiring soon, and dh would almost certainly get his job if we went back.  When I asked, he said that if he were the D.A., he would be able to let these cases go as he isn’t able to now, because the DA has to do office management and politics as well as prosecuting and it would be his job to train up someone who could give them his full attention.  It would also be a great career move for him.  He is dead set against going back, because I struggled with severe seasonal affective disorder there.  But maybe with being able to afford a brighter, more open home and a couple trips to warmer climates during the winters, it wouldn’t be as bad?  He is worried about my mental health, and I’m worried he’s trading his mental health for mine.  

Edited June 6, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[Ottakee]

That is a tough one.  Is his only big concern your seasonal affective disorder?  If so can your doctor help you manage it through Vit D, using SAD lights, lighter/brighter home, a sunny vacation?  I live in West Michigan were we see very little sun from Nov to March and it is rough but I don't have SAD.

I can see how that job would eat him up emotionally.  My now ex husband is serving 90 years for such crimes and I was ever so thankful for competent prosecution.  She was young but absolutely wonderful at her job.  I did pray for her as I know that these are not cases you leave behind when you go home at night.

[Condessa]

23 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

That is a tough one.  Is his only big concern your seasonal affective disorder?  If so can your doctor help you manage it through Vit D, using SAD lights, lighter/brighter home, a sunny vacation?  I live in West Michigan were we see very little sun from Nov to March and it is rough but I don't have SAD.

I can see how that job would eat him up emotionally.  My now ex husband is serving 90 years for such crimes and I was ever so thankful for competent prosecution.  She was young but absolutely wonderful at her job.  I did pray for her as I know that these are not cases you leave behind when you go home at night.

 

That is his big concern.  There would also be some stress with trying to manage an office in a perpetually underfunded county, but I think he would still jump at the chance for the promotion if it weren’t for his concern for me.  I did use vit D, St. John’s Wort, and SAD lights to deal with it when we used to live there, but it still seemed to get harder to manage each winter.

He carries every one of those kids with him in his heart.  And there are so many!  At his work, he is the calm and steady rock for victims and their families, but I see it coming out at other times: throwing up in the morning before a trial from nerves, insomnia, stomach and headaches all the time, breaking down crying when he sees the little girl in foster care at our church smile. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[athena1277]

Could he take the DA job in the old town, work there for a few years to gain experience, then look for a similar job in a better climate?  Maybe if he sees it as temporary, he would be more receptive to the idea.

[Andromeda]

Would he be willing/interested in working in corporate law? He could do things like read contracts, work on employee litigation (wrongful termination, etc.), or perhaps focus on intellectual property (trademarks, patents, etc.).

He would probably need to take some continuing education courses, but that should not be as intense as studying for his degree. And then he could just apply for jobs. 

[prairiewindmomma]

There are a number of us on here who left practicing law.  I think JoJo's Mom was also a prosecutor.  

I was at an estate planning conference last month and probably 1/3 of the people there had left something else to end up in estate planning.  It sounds, though, that his heart is in helping others.

Could you set up life so that you spend February at an AirBnb in Arizona?

[Arctic Bunny]

22 more years seems untenable for his mental health. The move back seems the most promising. Can you see any conditions under which you could manage SAD? Because clearly neither of you should be sacrificing your mental health. In the meantime, can you start going to counseling with him? He needs an outlet. Convincing himself that he is the only one who can do his job is an impossible amount of pressure. How devastated will he be if he “fails”?

Edited June 6, 2019 by arctic_bunny

[Liz CA]

If he has written articles and is known in his field, could he get into a role of training other prosecutors his approach and strategy?

I think going back to become the DA is another good option (from what I am reading in your post) and then you can work on the SAD issue. 

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, RosemaryAndThyme said:

Would he be willing/interested in working in corporate law? He could do things like read contracts, work on employee litigation (wrongful termination, etc.), or perhaps focus on intellectual property (trademarks, patents, etc.).

He would probably need to take some continuing education courses, but that should not be as intense as studying for his degree. And then he could just apply for jobs. 

 

49 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

There are a number of us on here who left practicing law.  I think JoJo's Mom was also a prosecutor.  

I was at an estate planning conference last month and probably 1/3 of the people there had left something else to end up in estate planning.  It sounds, though, that his heart is in helping others.

Could you set up life so that you spend February at an AirBnb in Arizona?

 

Going into corporate law, intellectual property, or estate planning law could be possibilities.  It would be starting over from the bottom, on things he hasn’t studied in ten years, but I think it would be worth it, if I could convince him.

We actually have family in Southern California with extra room and an open invitation, so I could potentially spend every February there.

[Condessa]

31 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

22 more years seems untenable for his mental health. The move back seems the most promising. Can you see any conditions under which you could manage SAD? Because clearly neither of you should be sacrificing your mental health. In the meantime, can you start going to counseling with him? He needs an outlet. Convincing himself that he is the only one who can do his jobless is an impossible amount of pressure. How devastated will he be if he “fails”?

 

I can see trying some new things to manage my SAD, but the big trouble is convincing dh.  I will try suggesting counseling to him, that’s a good idea.  He is indeed devastated when he loses a trial.  It doesn’t happen often, but it’s very rough when it does.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Law professor hiring is centralized, with a candidate database, and an annual hiring conference:

https://www.aals.org/services/recruitment/

You usually work with your law school to prepare your application. (It’s a feather in their cap if you get hired.)  His experience as a prosecutor might make him a interesting crim law professor.  Like all things with status obsessed law school, his stats and the ranking of his law school will also play a part.  His ability to teach is a plus, but his ideas for research will be the focus.  Willingness to relocate is huge, you basically take wherever you can get then work your way up the food chain, but flexibility isn’t enough, hiring is competitive all the way down.  But it isn’t crazy to consider putting your application in for a season and see what happens.

He might also be qualified for criminal justice teaching positions, but I don’t know anything about that field.   

[Condessa]

17 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

If he has written articles and is known in his field, could he get into a role of training other prosecutors his approach and strategy?

I think going back to become the DA is another good option (from what I am reading in your post) and then you can work on the SAD issue. 

 

He was a journalist once, but all his writing now is fiction.  I do think it would be a great fit for him to be a law school professor teaching criminal law, and he could do a lot of good that way, too.  I wonder what is required to get that job?  

Dh’s old boss will be retiring mid-term when he hits retirement age.  Maybe if I framed it as taking the job as a trial just until the next election year to see if my SAD could be managed, he would be more willing to consider it.

[Condessa]

5 minutes ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

Law professor hiring is centralized, with a candidate database, and an annual hiring conference:

https://www.aals.org/services/recruitment/

You usually work with your law school to prepare your application. (It’s a feather in their cap if you get hired.)  His experience as a prosecutor might make him a interesting crim law professor.  Like all things with status obsessed law school, his stats and the ranking of his law school will also play a part.  His ability to teach is a plus, but his ideas for research will be the focus.  Willingness to relocate is huge, you basically take wherever you can get then work your way up the food chain, but flexibility isn’t enough, hiring is competitive all the way down.  But it isn’t crazy to consider putting your application in for a season and see what happens.

He might also be qualified for criminal justice teaching positions, but I don’t know anything about that field.   

 

Thank you very much!

Do you know if it makes a difference where you got your education and experience for where law professors teach?  Would it be easier to get a job teaching in the state where he is a member of the bar?

[Lawyer&Mom]

1 minute ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Thank you very much!

Do you know if it makes a difference where you got your education and experience for where law professors teach?  Would it be easier to get a job teaching in the state where he is a member of the bar?

 

Law schools do not care about geography, they care about rankings.  (No one cares where you took the bar.  If there are state specific things you’ll need to teach your students, you’ll learn them.)  That said, having connections at a specific law school can only help.  (A colleague got a role at her alma mater because the other profs knew her, liked her, and wanted to hire one of “their own.”)

[J-rap]

Would you consider moving to a small town?  At least where we are, small towns sometimes struggle to find good attorneys.  .At small town law firms, you do a little bit of everything.  So he might have to do just a little of what he does now, but not much.  I'll bet your dh would be snatched up in a hurry.   And even though his heart is in helping victims, you get to know so many people personally in a small town that helping them even with the boring stuff can become more meaningful.   Pay will not be as high as at big city law firms, but cost of living is lower.   Life can feel very peaceful and simple living in a small town.  This was our experience, anyway.  (My dh was an attorney in our small town.  :))

[Bluegoat]

 am a bit curious about this idea that he wouldn't want to take more variety in his cases.  It might be worth revisiting this.  I wonder if that is really the reason, because if he took some other job, there would also be less experienced people handling his cases.  I think if he is really worried about lack of experience in this area he should let others take some of them - otherwise there will be a time when he is ill, or changes jobs, or whatever, and there won' be anyone with any experience.

[Pen]

I think return to where you used to live for da job and using proactive SAD management, including trips during the winter.

[Rachel]

Could he apply his knowledge to something different but related?  He knows how the system is broken, what can be done for prevention? Could he do consulting or training for organizations that help kids? Lobbying?  I know nothing about the field of law so I’m just brainstorming to see if it triggers an idea for you all.

I imagine a job like his is difficult!

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

but I think it would be worth it, if I could convince him.

fwiw, I'll give my standard advice against convincing other adults about important decisions they really have to make on their own. Present options, show you're open to different things, do some of the research/legwork if he's too busy, but don't try to convince him to do one thing or another. It's his career and he has to decide. /endadvice

And, so this post is something more than annoying, here is a really good article about how to become a law professor: 

https://law.utexas.edu/career/paths/academic/advice-on-becoming-a-law-professor/

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Has he looked for DA positions in other, sunnier, locations?

[Condessa]

8 hours ago, J-rap said:

Would you consider moving to a small town?  At least where we are, small towns sometimes struggle to find good attorneys.  .At small town law firms, you do a little bit of everything.  So he might have to do just a little of what he does now, but not much.  I'll bet your dh would be snatched up in a hurry.   And even though his heart is in helping victims, you get to know so many people personally in a small town that helping them even with the boring stuff can become more meaningful.   Pay will not be as high as at big city law firms, but cost of living is lower.   Life can feel very peaceful and simple living in a small town.  This was our experience, anyway.  (My dh was an attorney in our small town.  :))

 

Sure.  I like small town life, and dh doesn’t mind it.  Even when we lived in a small county, though, there were enough of these cases that he had at least one and usually several of them going most of the time.  

7 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 am a bit curious about this idea that he wouldn't want to take more variety in his cases.  It might be worth revisiting this.  I wonder if that is really the reason, because if he took some other job, there would also be less experienced people handling his cases.  I think if he is really worried about lack of experience in this area he should let others take some of them - otherwise there will be a time when he is ill, or changes jobs, or whatever, and there won' be anyone with any experience.

.

Yes, it really is the reason.  If he left though, they would hire another experienced attorney to take his place.  (DDA3 or ADA).  The way the office pay scale is structured, they get enough funding for one DDA3 or ADA experience-level hire, two or three DDA2s, and several DDA1s, aside from the county DA.  So he has more experience than the other attorneys, but if he left they would be able to replace him with another more experienced attorney.  

He has gone into trial ill before, because he was worried the other attorneys weren’t up to a difficult trial even with his detailed notes, or because he knew a frightened child whose confidence he’d spent months building up probably wouldn’t be able to go through with testifying if a stranger was there instead of him..  He has thrown up in court because he went to trial sick.  He was fuming on our recent trip when he heard that another attorney had dismissed a case he had done all the prep work for and left detailed instructions on, because the other attorney didn’t think he could get the conviction.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[Condessa]

3 hours ago, Seasider too said:

If he is indeed really really good at what he does, and has the conviction statistics to back it up, perhaps he could write some material and create some educational seminar(s) that would serve as professional development for other public prosecutors. It would involve travel, and time spent marketing/advertising, but maybe that would be easier on your family than a continual fresh load of emotionally charged cases.  

ETA so kind of like teaching but nothing to grade. 

I wonder how one goes about doing this?  

3 hours ago, Rachel said:

Could he apply his knowledge to something different but related?  He knows how the system is broken, what can be done for prevention? Could he do consulting or training for organizations that help kids? Lobbying?  I know nothing about the field of law so I’m just brainstorming to see if it triggers an idea for you all.

I imagine a job like his is difficult!

Food for thought.

2 hours ago, katilac said:

fwiw, I'll give my standard advice against convincing other adults about important decisions they really have to make on their own. Present options, show you're open to different things, do some of the research/legwork if he's too busy, but don't try to convince him to do one thing or another. It's his career and he has to decide. /endadvice

And, so this post is something more than annoying, here is a really good article about how to become a law professor: 

https://law.utexas.edu/career/paths/academic/advice-on-becoming-a-law-professor/

A good reminder.  Thanks for the article!

[Condessa]

46 minutes ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

Has he looked for DA positions in other, sunnier, locations?

 

Yes, that’s how we got here.  But it’s the same type of work wherever we go, and he hasn’t been willing to tell a boss he doesn’t want to take these cases any more.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

1 hour ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Yes, that’s how we got here.  But it’s the same type of work wherever we go, and he hasn’t been willing to tell a boss he doesn’t want to take these cases any more.

 

I guess I don't understand.  What I meant was, could he find a job similar to the DA job he would have if you went back to your old town, one that was more managerial/political, less prosecuting, and in a sunnier location.

[JennyD]

I am sorry that your husband is having such a tough time.  Dh and I both teach at a law school and so we know so many lawyers who have worked for a while in either a DA's or a public defender's office and just burned out from the incredible emotional toll.  Those jobs are just brutal.  

Which is to say, that there are tons of lawyers out there who have been in his exact situation and then gone on to other successful, rewarding careers.  T I would urge him to talk with some people who have left public prosecutors' office and then done other things.   Does he know anyone from his office who has left in recent years?  Friends of friends?  Old law school classmates?

Switching to private law is absolutely an option and law firms hire former ADAs all the time.  They have the sort of extensive courtroom experience that firms simply cannot build in associates hired out of law school and I would expect he would be very marketable.   I would not worry at all about him not having substantive background in a particular area; law firms expect that incoming associates won't know anything about corporate law or trademark or whatever.  What they want is someone who knows how to lawyer, and your husband has that in spades.

If your husband is interested in teaching, I would recommend applying for what are generally called "clinical" professor jobs at law schools.  Clinical professors teach more practical classes (so, "trial advocacy" instead of "criminal law") and are generally hired based on their professional experience rather than their research background.

Has your DH thought about applying to be an Assistant US Attorney?  That is another road I've seen former ADAs take, and honestly I've never met an AUSA who didn't love his or her job.  I don't know how much geographic flexibility you have, but here's the official link.

Another option, if you want to stay where you are, might be to switch to another state job, but doing something else.  This would allow your husband to continue building towards his pension.  For example, I have one friend who worked for a while as a public defender, then clerked for a state supreme court judge, and now works in another state department (unrelated to criminal law) as a staff attorney. All of those years are credited to her seniority as a state employee.

Wishing him, and you, all the best.

[Terabith]

I am so sorry he is hurting.  I know it’s brutal.  But as someone who experienced some of the things he is prosecuting (although never reported), I am so thankful that he cares so much and works so hard. What he is doing is secular ministry.  It’s sacred.  Thank you for doing it.  It somewhat restores my faith in the system and that there is at least sometimes a glimmer of goodness.  

Edited June 7, 2019 by Terabith

[Lady Florida.]

If he wants to stick with government - Our nephew is a lawyer (one of many) for a nearby county. He said sometimes it's boring work like when someone calls and complains that their neighbor's lawn is 1/2 inch too long. Then he has to look into the current law about grass height. Most times though he finds it interesting and challenging. When the county wants to pass a law it's lawyers on staff who have to make sure they can. Is it constitutional according to both the state and federal government? Is there a possibility of being sued? If so, would the county win and is it worth it? When the county does get sued he's one of an army of lawyers involved in defending them. He used to work for a high powered private law firm and found it way too stressful. He likes this much better. Plus he has more time for his family.

If your dh really doesn't want to change jobs, I'd at least suggest he get a regular therapist. It's one thing to come home and vent to your spouse but a professional could help him work through some of the emotional stress in ways you might not think of.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[Condessa]

7 hours ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

 

I guess I don't understand.  What I meant was, could he find a job similar to the DA job he would have if you went back to your old town, one that was more managerial/political, less prosecuting, and in a sunnier location.

 

Oh, sorry.  It was late, and I missunderstood.  That is something it’s possible to watch for, but we live in the Pacific Northwest, so there are only a few sunnier counties in our state.

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

I am sorry that your husband is having such a tough time.  Dh and I both teach at a law school and so we know so many lawyers who have worked for a while in either a DA's or a public defender's office and just burned out from the incredible emotional toll.  Those jobs are just brutal.  

Which is to say, that there are tons of lawyers out there who have been in his exact situation and then gone on to other successful, rewarding careers.  T I would urge him to talk with some people who have left public prosecutors' office and then done other things.   Does he know anyone from his office who has left in recent years?  Friends of friends?  Old law school classmates?

Switching to private law is absolutely an option and law firms hire former ADAs all the time.  They have the sort of extensive courtroom experience that firms simply cannot build in associates hired out of law school and I would expect he would be very marketable.   I would not worry at all about him not having substantive background in a particular area; law firms expect that incoming associates won't know anything about corporate law or trademark or whatever.  What they want is someone who knows how to lawyer, and your husband has that in spades.

If your husband is interested in teaching, I would recommend applying for what are generally called "clinical" professor jobs at law schools.  Clinical professors teach more practical classes (so, "trial advocacy" instead of "criminal law") and are generally hired based on their professional experience rather than their research background.

Has your DH thought about applying to be an Assistant US Attorney?  That is another road I've seen former ADAs take, and honestly I've never met an AUSA who didn't love his or her job.  I don't know how much geographic flexibility you have, but here's the official link.

Another option, if you want to stay where you are, might be to switch to another state job, but doing something else.  This would allow your husband to continue building towards his pension.  For example, I have one friend who worked for a while as a public defender, then clerked for a state supreme court judge, and now works in another state department (unrelated to criminal law) as a staff attorney. All of those years are credited to her seniority as a state employee.

Wishing him, and you, all the best.

 

Thanks, these are helpful.  It’s good to know that switching to private law is pretty common.  All of these seem like good options.

The practical classes would be right up his alley if he were to go into teaching.  The article linked up thread sounded like dh would have absolutely no chance of becoming a law professor, as he has not been working towards that in publishing and cultivating contacts since he was still a student, and attended a good-but-not-top-tier law school because it offered him a half scholarship.  Honestly, it explained a lot about why dh’s law professors in school were such boring and uninspiring teachers, if they are generally hired for prestige and connections and not for actual teaching ability.  It looks like clinical professor jobs are also advertised in the AALS placement bulletin from Lawyer&Mom’s link.

[Pen]

 

Quote

If your dh really doesn't want to change jobs, I'd at least suggest he get a regular therapist. It's one thing to come home and vent to your spouse but a professional could help him work through some of the emotional stress in ways you might not think of.

 

 

This sounds like a good idea. 

Law tends to be high stress in many areas. 

And might he be able to teach one class at a law school, if any is in your area, teaching others how to do those sex offenses cases, or mentor others in his office to be able to do them well?

15 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Oh, sorry.  It was late, and I missunderstood.  That is something it’s possible to watch for, but we live in the Pacific Northwest, so there are only a few sunnier counties in our state.

 

U live in PNW now? Or that’s the former place with possible DA job?

[Condessa]

52 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

If he wants to stick with government - Our nephew is a lawyer (one of many) for a local city. He said sometimes it's boring work like when someone calls and complains that their neighbor's lawn is 1/2 inch too long. Then he has to look into the current law about grass height. Most times though he finds it interesting and challenging. When the city wants to pass a law it's lawyers on staff who have to make sure they can. Is it constitutional according to both the state and federal government? Is there a possibility of being sued? If so, would the city win and is it worth it? When the city does get sued he's one of an army of lawyers involved in defending them. He used to work for a high powered private law firm and found it way too stressful. He likes this much better. Plus he has more time for his family.

If your dh really doesn't want to change jobs, I'd at least suggest he get a regular therapist. It's one thing to come home and vent to your spouse but a professional could help him work through some of the emotional stress in ways you might not think of.

 

That’s another good one to add to the list.

 

[Condessa]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

This sounds like a good idea. 

Law tends to be high stress in many areas. 

And might he be able to teach one class at a law school, if any is in your area, teaching others how to do those sex offenses cases, or mentor others in his office to be able to do them well?

 

U live in PNW now? Or that’s the former place with possible DA job?

 

I should look in to that.  I’m not sure where the closest law school is.  

Both are in the same state, but the old job was in typical PNW weather, and now we live in the little inland slice of drier, less temperate climate on the other side of the state.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[Pen]

Just now, Michelle Conde said:

 

Both are in the same state, but the old job was in typical PNW weather, and now we live in the little inland slice of drier, less temperate climate on the other side of the state.

 

Ah.  I live in an area of typical PNW 

but even very locally, there can be big differences from things like being up on a fairly bare hill with skylights mirrors, lots of interior white and a big sunroom as a main living area vs being in treed  valley with big porch overhangs blocking light from windows and darker interior colors.  

I know someone with SAD who deals with it by being outdoors most of the day in winter—got a job that fits that

vitamin D etc as well of course

we have the dark, treed  valley and overhangs type situation, alas, but I’ve found full spectrum lights are helpful as regular bulbs , not just a brief high intensity use in SAD lights

I know people who do take a winter trip to alleviate SAD 

 

[JennyD]

11 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

 The article linked up thread sounded like dh would have absolutely no chance of becoming a law professor, as he has not been working towards that in publishing and cultivating contacts since he was still a student, and attended a good-but-not-top-tier law school because it offered him a half scholarship.  Honestly, it explained a lot about why dh’s law professors in school were such boring and uninspiring teachers, if they are generally hired for prestige and connections and not for actual teaching ability.  It looks like clinical professor jobs are also advertised in the AALS placement bulletin from Lawyer&Mom’s link.

 

Well, my husband and I both put a tremendous amount of effort into our teaching and like to think that we do a good job, but yes, it is very challenging to break into legal academia.  We both hold Ph.D.s, as well as J.Ds., and my husband accumulated a number of professional achievements before landing an entry-level tenure-track job.

Clinical jobs are still extremely competitive, but the criteria is somewhat different.

[Pen]

17 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Both are in the same state, but the old job was in typical PNW weather, and now we live in the little inland slice of drier, less temperate climate on the other side of the state.

 

Adding: some SAD symptoms also could be related to poor air quality when homes are shut up against cold in fall / winter   Spring brings more outdoor time often.  

But the house of some people I knew who built on a new sunroom living area and added skylights including reflector tubes that could go to a lower floor seemed hugely better even when shut for winter

Sigh: Editor won’t clear

Ah.  I live in an area of typical PNW 

but even very locally, there can be big differences from things like being up on a fairly bare hill with skylights mirrors, lots of interior white and a big sunroom as a main living area vs being in treed  valley with big porch overhangs blocking light from windows and darker interior colors.  

I know someone with SAD who deals with it by being outdoors most of the day in winter—got a job that fits that

vitamin D etc as well of course

we have the dark, treed  valley and overhangs type situation, alas, but I’ve found full spectrum lights are helpful as regular bulbs , not just a brief high intensity use in SAD lights

I know people who do take a winter trip to alleviate SAD 

 

[Lawyer&Mom]

PNW SAD is the real deal!  I’m in Seattle and winters are harder than when I lived in the upper Midwest with snow and freezing cold.  Like at least the super cold days were bright and sunny!

I have a friend who was a public defender for several years who now does product liability litigation.  Still helping people, still in the courtroom, just less intense with more resources.

 

 

[elegantlion]

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

 

Well, my husband and I both put a tremendous amount of effort into our teaching and like to think that we do a good job, but yes, it is very challenging to break into legal academia.  We both hold Ph.D.s, as well as J.Ds., and my husband accumulated a number of professional achievements before landing an entry-level tenure-track job.

 

Academia is fraught with instability and tenure track positions are challenging to find. I'm in the history field and my understanding is that you need a PhD to be considered for tenure track positions, not just the JD. I do know a few American history professors who do have their JD and in addition to PhD, but opted not to go into law or are wanting to get out of the legal field. 

[Katy]

I didn't read the other responses yet.  As a foster parent I've interacted with attorneys like him many times.  Most of them see it as a calling.  When I get overwhelmed emotionally even hearing the stories and I ask them how they deal with it they've ALL said therapy.  Twice a week in one case. They're doing amazing work but seeing the worst of humanity is difficult.

They also try their best to see the best in humanity and spend time in nature.  But therapy seems to make the biggest difference.

[livetoread]

Another plug for municipal law. My dh is law director for a small city, and it has been a great profession for him and our family. He is planning on retiring in six years, and the state benefits are amazing. One of the prosecutors who worked for him left and filled a judge vacancy, but judgeships are competitive, political, and rare.

I’ll also put in another plug for therapy. It would be easy to develop some thinking that leaves you trapped (“no one else can do this job as well as I can”) and therapy can be helpful in sorting out different perspectives.

I respect his strong desire to make a difference, and hopefully he can find a way to continue doing that without sacrificing too much of his mental health. We take our soldiers on the front lines of whatever battles for granted way too much.

[katilac]

On 6/7/2019 at 1:33 AM, Suzanne in ABQ said:

 

I guess I don't understand.  What I meant was, could he find a job similar to the DA job he would have if you went back to your old town, one that was more managerial/political, less prosecuting, and in a sunnier location.

Aren't almost all district attorneys elected or appointed, though? 

[Condessa]

23 minutes ago, katilac said:

Aren't almost all district attorneys elected or appointed, though? 

Yes, they’re elected, so attorneys from within the county generally get the job, but not always.  

[Condessa]

Thanks, all.  Just a little update:

Dh is still absolutely unwilling to consider taking the promotion in our old town, over his concern for my SAD.  He agrees that this career is not going to work long-term anymore.  After talking through all the different options, he has decided that he wants to tough it out in this job for the next 2 to 3 years while actively pursuing his writing in that time in an effort to turn that into an income source.  I don’t know if anything will come of it, but in the meantime he will be working on something that he enjoys and that gives him a reprieve from the darker stuff he deals with, I will be trying to manage our finances so as to get us ready for a change, and by then he will have logged ten years on the pension program, which will give us 1/3 or 2/5 of the benefits if he stayed in.  Not as solid of steps as I might have liked, but something.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[Arctic Bunny]

Any thoughts about talking to someone? Is there no support for that in his position? Perhaps he could be the one that makes it mandated, to help those that follow in his footsteps.

[Condessa]

13 hours ago, arctic_bunny said:

Any thoughts about talking to someone? Is there no support for that in his position? Perhaps he could be the one that makes it mandated, to help those that follow in his footsteps.

 

No plans on that yet.  We’ll see.

[G5052]

I can address the community college part. You can actually research salaries on Glassdoor if the college is fairly good-sized. At the college where I work now, the salaries are about $20,000 over what teachers make, so it's pretty good but not great in an area where many people make six figures.

I've been a part-time community college professor for twenty years and have no hope of being full-time at this point. There are very, very few new full-time positions. I'm not saying that it's impossible in your situation, but it's very unlikely in my area. I'm actually looking for other work right now because I need benefits and more pay. 

[EmilyGF]

21 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

Thanks, all.  Just a little update:

Dh is still absolutely unwilling to consider taking the promotion in our old town, over his concern for my SAD.  He agrees that this career is not going to work long-term anymore.  After talking through all the different options, he has decided that he wants to tough it out in this job for the next 2 to 3 years while actively pursuing his writing in that time in an effort to turn that into an income source.  I don’t know if anything will come of it, but in the meantime he will be working on something that he enjoys and that gives him a reprieve from the darker stuff he deals with, I will be trying to manage our finances so as to get us ready for a change, and by then he will have logged ten years on the pension program, which will give us 1/3 or 2/5 of the benefits if he stayed in.  Not as solid of steps as I might have liked, but something.

Just wanted to add an encouragement to get counseling from a good counselor (there are a lot of duds out there).

I don't think he'll be willing to change lines of work until he's worked through some of the issues he has, beyond the horrible things he's seeing, to include how he's thinking about work and his role. I saw a counselor online when I was experiencing some cognitive distortions (basically thinking that I was completely responsible for my children's health - I've got responsibility, of course, but many things are out of my control) and it relieved me of a lot of stress and anger. 

I did my counseling online via Skype. If he's really busy at work, such a setup might be workable. Also, professional networks can often suggest people who can offer help. Even if it is a huge financial strain right now, I encourage you to do whatever you can to make it happen. 

Emily

[Arctic Bunny]

8 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

No plans on that yet.  We’ll see.

Are you in a place where he has a relationship with police officers? Because it would be interesting to compare how long they stay in that unit, and what kind of mental support they have. In our neck of the woods, burnout is high. And I don't think they are expected to stay long in the child exploitation unit. And I don’t know about within the unit, but debriefing with a counsellor is mandatory for those who deal with that sort of case.

[Kanin]

I feel for you. My husband has a PhD in math and did all the usual things... got an academic job, and it was not what he expected. His classes were large (40+ kids in a calculus class) so he spent most of his time answering emails. He never had time to actually make connections with students, which was his favorite part of teaching. He felt like a cog in the academic wheel.

After 4 years, I finally got a job in a different state, and he was burnt out enough to quit his job. I still feel bad about it, because math is his passion, and so is teaching... but the emotional toll was not worth it! I was watching him disintegrate before my eyes. Now he has a boring, but non-stressful, job. He's planning to look for other work eventually, but for now, I think his brain + body are healing. 

So sorry you're going through this. It's hard to support someone who is under so much stress 😞 

[Condessa]

13 hours ago, arctic_bunny said:

Are you in a place where he has a relationship with police officers? Because it would be interesting to compare how long they stay in that unit, and what kind of mental support they have. In our neck of the woods, burnout is high. And I don't think they are expected to stay long in the child exploitation unit. And I don’t know about within the unit, but debriefing with a counsellor is mandatory for those who deal with that sort of case.

 

What a good idea!  He does work closely with the police officers, but I don’t know if they have a similar setup here.

14 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Just wanted to add an encouragement to get counseling from a good counselor (there are a lot of duds out there).

I don't think he'll be willing to change lines of work until he's worked through some of the issues he has, beyond the horrible things he's seeing, to include how he's thinking about work and his role. I saw a counselor online when I was experiencing some cognitive distortions (basically thinking that I was completely responsible for my children's health - I've got responsibility, of course, but many things are out of my control) and it relieved me of a lot of stress and anger. 

I did my counseling online via Skype. If he's really busy at work, such a setup might be workable. Also, professional networks can often suggest people who can offer help. Even if it is a huge financial strain right now, I encourage you to do whatever you can to make it happen. 

Emily

 

It’s not that he is opposed to counseling, but he is busy, and he is having a better week this week.  I think the next time it is weighing him down, I will bring it up and see if it’s time then.

[YaelAldrich]

17 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

What a good idea!  He does work closely with the police officers, but I don’t know if they have a similar setup here.

 

It’s not that he is opposed to counseling, but he is busy, and he is having a better week this week.  I think the next time it is weighing him down, I will bring it up and see if it’s time then.

Oftentimes finding a good therapist takes time so by the time he gets down again, you'll be hard up and may not find something.  It's better to try to start therapy while on an upswing.  Good luck!