I have new baby cousins....and their parents are using Babywise

[Terabith]

So my cousin and his husband had new boy/ girl twins ten weeks ago.  They're six weeks adjusted.  (They used a surrogate.)  We were in DC and got to meet them, and they are so beautiful and so sweet, and I adore them already.  But my cousin and his husband are highly intelligent, professional high achievers, who are used to being able to control pretty much everything about their lives.  They're a ton of fun, but they're the kind of people who run ultramarathons and do the Ironman.  

Parenthood is kicking their butt.  

Neither of them have had ANY experience with children.  Never been around babies.  They've read some books, including some good ones like Happiest Baby on the Block.  But the one they're wedded to is Babywise, and they are utterly determined to make their kids follow the routines.  They have spreadsheets of their formula consumption.  And they seem to think that the babies should eat and immediately go back to sleep.  We got to feed them and then had them unceremoniously removed from our arms to be put to bed in their cribs because they can't get off schedule, and the schedule is feeding and immediately back to sleep.  And I get that twins are way harder than singletons and that you probably do have to be more organized and structured.  My kids were 17 months apart, but I know that's not remotely the same thing.  But this is clearly not working for them.  They're both at the end of their rope.  They are both going back to work and have a nanny who will care for the twins during the day, and they're hiring a night nurse so they can get some sleep, and they're hoping the night nurse will sleep train the babies.  The babies aren't sleeping well, and the girl cries a lot, apparently.  But when I questioned about the circumstances, it turns out she doesn't cry if she's in physical contact with someone.  She doesn't cry if she's held or touching them.  So my attachment parenting instinct was like....um, then why don't you just hold her?  My husband and I tried to talk about how you have to figure out what works for you AND for the babies, and that what works for one kid might not work for the other, that everyone is different, and that sometimes you have to experiment with different things.  I am sympathetic, because having one new baby is hard and overwhelming, let alone two, but they clearly thought that parenting was easy and not really skilled labor, and part of me wanted to remind them of how lucky they are to have enough money to hire a night nurse and that at least they aren't recuperating physically from childbirth.  And the lack of sleep is brutal....but maybe they should try something different to maximize sleep.  

And then my brilliant, high flyer cousin asked me when they learned to see.  I was like, "Um...I mean, their distance vision kinda stinks, but they can see from birth, especially that breast to face distance.  Clearly they can see.  You can watch them watching.  The girl was looking for his voice as he talked.  I suggested maybe doing some fun stuff with them....read them books, sing songs, play with them.  Put up a mobile.  Give them stuff to look at and bat at.  Do baby massages and baby yoga or exercises.  Take them for a walk.  Don't just feed them and put them in their cribs.  They're on high calorie formula and they're gaining weight, so they're doing fine, but my heart hurts for this little girl who just desperately wants to be held, and I'm sort of insulted that they view parenting as so unskilled that they haven't done enough research to know that infants have vision.  Or even watched their own babies enough to know that they can see.  

[Terabith]

Oh, I know.  I was very supportive and kind and affirmed that their babies were growing and that they were doing fine and that parenting is really hard and we all screw up and told funny stories of stupid things I did and stuff.  I think I said all the right things.  I just was both sad and dismayed.  But quietly, to myself.  

[Ausmumof3]

I hate baby wise with a passion but honestly I find there’s not much you can do it someone is dedicated to it.  I mean if they are both intelligent and well educated you could potentially direct them toward some more scientifically validated resources for child raising but I think people need to see for themselves unfortunately.  

[Ailaena]

And take solace that the nannies will probably be a saving grace.  

Sorry, Happy, I have family almost exactly like Terabith and I feel the same way she does.  It’s not just “let them find their way” because they’re rational adults who will work it out, it’s hold my tongue while they effectively neglect their kids and send them to bed at 5pm and wake them up at 7am only to then put them in a container and ignore them until the nanny gets there.   Not all sunshine all of the time.   

 

ETA: I have no idea what babywise is

Edited August 27, 2018 by Ailaena

[Guest]

That’s troubling. Especially that last part where dad does not realize his baby can see and wants to interact with him. Maybe if you could “speak his language” (dad’s) a little it would help, like talking about their intellectual development and how important it is for their senses to be stimulated so it will lay down neural connections and they can learn. “Studies have shown that even the tonal variations people instinctively use with babies, i.e., baby-talking in a musical voice, stimulated their auditory pathways and helps them distinguish words and eventually infer meaning.” That sort of thing. 

However, I am really, really chicken about telling other parents what I think they should/shouldn’t do to manage their kids. I was just listening to my SiL talking about how her dd has quit nursing (SIL is glad) and how she was just “done with it”. This baby is still so little! I don’t like that my niece quit but I like even less that my SIL steered her towards quitting. But I buttoned my lip. I just grimaced and nodded. It’s not my circus and they weren’t asking for my advice so...oh well. 

I would have a hard time with what you described. My dd is a nanny/night nurse and sometimes she nannies for parents who seem to think the babies are just little programmable robots. One parent required her to wake the baby up at (I forget which specific time), but wake baby, feed baby, put baby back to bed so baby would then wake back up at 5:30, get a feed and mom could go to work. Just fit it into the schedule...DD was very reluctant because baby wasn’t needing to or ready to eat at the time the mom wanted. But if she let the baby sleep, baby would wake at an “unapproved” time, eat at an “unapproved” time, and then not be ready to wake and eat at the correct time for mom to go to work. 

These are literally always wealthy and well-educated clients - who else can afford a seevice such as this - but sometimes they are surprisingly ignorant of what babies do. 

[Ailaena]

Eh, I’m probably projecting, and I’m sorry I was rude to you, but it sounds too similar to not just my family, but other people I’ve been meeting lately in that same age/income bracket.  “The nanny handles that.”  “I don’t say hi to the kids until after I’ve had a glass of wine.”  “Omg, 4-week old just wants so much attention.”

Of course new parents aren’t perfect, but when they begin forcing their newborn babies to bend to their will, I get grumpy ?

[Ailaena]

11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I don't think you were rude at all, promise.

 

I do prefer to give new parents the benefit of the doubt.  I also do believe that in a very general sense.....if the kids aren't abused, they will generally turn out ok.  And I don't believe that trying to schedule a newborn is abuse.  I believe that intentionally-starving, harming, beating and otherwise specifically causing HARM to a kid is abuse.  But, stumbling around to try to create a schedule, not knowing everything about the development of a 10wk old and generally making the effort to provide for the health and well being of your kids is NOT abuse, even if your intent doesn't result in your kid receiving THE VERY BEST.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Yes!  And you’re absolutely right and there are people who absolutely NEED a kid to be on a schedule for whatever reason and people who love their children dearly and still need a nanny.  And other parents are definitely not like me and I value their opinions and enjoy their differences.   

Maybe im angry at entitlement. Maybe I get angry at the idea of a child being a nuisance.  Who knows.  

[Garga]

Well, I’ll admit that I used Babywise for my 2nd baby. At the time, I didn’t know that the book was controversial.  My oldest had had colic and cried for hours upon hours every day for months and I held him almost non-stop for about a year.  He was fed on demand, which meant he literally wanted to eat every hour on the hour for a few months, and then moved to every 2 hours for another half year.  He never slept more than 2 hours in a row for 18 months of his life..  He co-slept with me.  He has ADHD which meant he was on the go more than any other kid his age that I knew.  The other moms would look at me kinda funny chasing him around, because they thought I was doing things wrong to make him so hyper.  No, I wasn’t.  An adhd kid is just different.  And hyper—adHd, after all.  

So, for a year and a half, I never slept more than an hour and a half in a row, I held the baby constantly because he almost never slept during the day and was colicky and needed to be held, I couldn’t leave him playing quietly on the floor (after the colic months) while I got things done because he was Demanding (capital D.)

I sunk into a weird form of depression.  The nursing set off happy hormones in me so part of me felt happy and content, but I wasn’t human anymore.  I was just a walking food machine and was beyond seriously sleep deprived, so I also felt useless as a person and chained down.

I knew that when I had the second one, I could never handle both—because I assumed the 2nd one would be exactly like the first (I knew nothing of kids until I had my own.) So, when I found Babywise, it seemed wonderful. Finally, there were tips on how to help baby fall asleep and how often to expect them to eat.

So, yeah.  Babywise.  I fed the baby when they said to (I think it’s supposed to be when they first wake up, so that when it’s time to sleep they don’t need to use you as a human pacifier—which is why my oldest did.). I did let him cry in the crib to fall asleep, but he didn’t cry more than about 7 or 8 minutes or so.  I had charts in place for how much sleep and food to expect Baby to need.  

And everything was fine.  The second baby was like how I hear other people’s experiences are.  Of course, he doesn’t have ADHD and wasn’t colicky, so maybe he’d have been fine no matter what.  And I still held him practically non-stop when he was awake because I loved him to pieces and couldn’t get enough of him.  (Still love him that much!  Love them both that much!)

So, I don’t know.  I have heard that Babywise is bad and it probably is if taken too far.  But I was grateful that it gave me guidelines on how much to feed babies and how much sleep they need.  Because with the first, it was just out of control and not good for baby or me..

 

Oh, this is too long.  Anyway, OP, tell them everything you know about parenting as long as they’re receptive—absolutely do that.  Go ahead and tell them what you know about Babywise that’s bad—perhaps the cases where people take it too far—but also know that there’s a good chance their babies will be fine, even following Babywise.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

As soon as you mentioned they are going to hire people with a clue, I relaxed a bit. This situation would also upset me very much, but if it's formula and not bf'ing on schedule, and if some carers are hired, I don't think the survival chances are lessened. 

As far as Babywise, there is one thing that I do not refrain from saying, which is to ask people why they are taking parenting advice from people who have not enjoyed a good relationship with their own children and grandchildren! Do they want those results? If not, why are they following their philosophies and methods?

[Garga]

5 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

As soon as you mentioned they are going to hire people with a clue, I relaxed a bit. This situation would also upset me very much, but if it's formula and not bf'ing on schedule, and if some carers are hired, I don't think the survival chances are lessened. 

As far as Babywise, there is one thing that I do not refrain from saying, which is to ask people why they are taking parenting advice from people who have not enjoyed a good relationship with their own children and grandchildren! Do they want those results? If not, why are they following their philosophies and methods?

If they’re like I was, they just don’t know any better.  There was a learning curve for me in how to assess the advice I was given.

This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t challenge them to better assess the advice they’re following.  I’m just pointing out how people innocently fall into believing what they read in a baby advice book.  (Also, so little sleep...reasoning skills become fuzzy.)

Edited August 27, 2018 by Garga

[Guest]

@Garga, I had similar experiences and I did some things differently with subsequent kids than I had with my first. (As far as methods go, I used something roughly akin to The Baby Whisperer, which is like a less fanatical Babywise.) What bothers me in the OP’s description is not so much that they are latching on to Babywise. It is both the inflexibility the OP mentioned and the apparent lack of knowledge about how babies develop.

Also, sorry if this hits anyone wrong, but I do not think two guys with babies are going to have as much “instinctive” notion of nurturing as a hetero pair or maybe even two ladies. I do believe females come better equipped to nurture young. So I would feel that two male parents are going to need more instructive knowledge because it is less likely to arrive as a natural condition of parenting. I have even heard that adoptive parents need to be more intentional about bonding because they do not have the natural biological help that connects us to our babies and makes us respond to them as our children. 

 

[klmama]

Using Babywise doesn't concern me that much - lots of babies do better with a regular schedule to help them learn to sleep well, and with two it seems extra important.  I thought the putting them back down to sleep after eating thing was only during the night, though???  Anyway, it's the Childwise book that would be of bigger concern to me.  If you hear them make any comments about reading that, definitely follow Tibbie's advice!

ETA:  Just read Quill's comment; somehow I missed most of the important details in this situation.  I agree that they need some extra guidance here.  Have they read books on infant adoption and the special attachment needs that go along with that?

Edited August 27, 2018 by klmama

[Garga]

7 minutes ago, Quill said:

@Garga, I had similar experiences and I did some things differently with subsequent kids than I had with my first. (As far as methods go, I used something roughly akin to The Baby Whisperer, which is like a less fanatical Babywise.) What bothers me in the OP’s description is not so much that they are latching on to Babywise. It is both the inflexibility the OP mentioned and the apparent lack of knowledge about how babies develop.

Also, sorry if this hits anyone wrong, but I do not think two guys with babies are going to have as much “instinctive” notion of nurturing as a hetero pair or maybe even two ladies. I do believe females come better equipped to nurture young. So I would feel that two male parents are going to need more instructive knowledge because it is less likely to arrive as a natural condition of parenting. I have even heard that adoptive parents need to be more intentional about bonding because they do not have the natural biological help that connects us to our babies and makes us respond to them as our children. 

 

These are good points.  I’ve read a bit recently about people transitioning.  Transgender men (I think that’s the correct way to write it) say that when they started taking a lot of testosterone that their personalities changed somewhat.  They gained more “male” ways of thinking and felt more aggression and lost some of their “female” ways of thinking—they lost a bit of their nurturing side.  So there is an element of how Dads bond differently than Moms and maybe these Dads will need some explicit instruction on how best to meet the bonding needs of the babies.

[Janeway]

Can you send them links linking baby wise to child abuse and child deaths and such?  It is just so sad for these little babies.

 

 

[Pen]

I didn’t know what Babywise was till I looked it up. 

A set of twins in my extended family and a set a friend of mine had, were said to be much easier than the singlets because the twins cuddled with each other and comforted each other as infants and then played and tired each other out as toddlers.

These 2 anecdotes might have been unusual, but In case not, I wonder if your cousins are in the same crib or being separated from each other. 

[Happy2BaMom]

If you think they would be open to reading another book, William Sears, MD has written some really good ones. What I like about his style (granted, it's been 10 years since I needed them) was that he was balanced in his view of research, developmental needs and yet compassionate and considerate for the child and the parent. I had The Baby Book & The Discipline Book and it looks like he also has The Baby Sleep book. 

Perhaps one of the baby books might help? 

Edited to add: the reason I mention Dr. Sears is due to him being an MD - sometimes that credential carries a lot of weight, esp for certain demographics.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Happy2BaMom

[Rosie_0801]

I think you might need to ask them for five minutes of indulgence where they try not to get offended, then talk them through how they know their partner likes them, ending with "So, basically, because they mostly respond the way you need them to? Babies are like that too. Babies cry whatever you do, but they cry more if you don't respond because that's the only way they have to beg for attention. And they do that because if you don't respond when they need you, they think you don't like them and they're being abandoned and rejection hurts and that is a DESPERATE situation, each and every time, even if that's three times in one minute. So, no, you're not going to spoil them. You're going to teach them that you like them best out of all the babies in the world. So carry them around, read the newspaper to them, look out the window and point at stuff, wave their little arms in the air whenever your team scores a goal and whatever else seems to amuse them, because they don't like being bored either. "

[maize]

I'm wondering...if they are just now hiring nannies have one or both been home on parental leave? Does it seem that the parents themselves are bonding with the babies, spending time cuddling and playing and enjoying them?

I've seen research somewhere that oxytocin levels rise in dads as well as moms of newborns--in proportion to the amount of time the dad spends with the infant.

[maize]

I love what Rosie said.

[melmichigan]

I'm wondering if they're taking discharge information a little to far?  We came home with multiples that were premies and needed fed every three hours.  They needed to gain weight and fought jaundice, so they had to be wakened.  We were warned by the staff that they needed to be kept in a low stimulate environment, on and on, the directions went, amount of formula, amount of sleep.  If I hadn't already had a baby I might have taken that information and run with it.  Maybe help them understand that once the babies are adjusted for their due date that doesn't need to be the case?  Gentle encouragement may go a long way.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I think you might need to ask them for five minutes of indulgence where they try not to get offended, then talk them through how they know their partner likes them, ending with "So, basically, because they mostly respond the way you need them to? Babies are like that too. Babies cry whatever you do, but they cry more if you don't respond because that's the only way they have to beg for attention. And they do that because if you don't respond when they need you, they think you don't like them and they're being abandoned and rejection hurts and that is a DESPERATE situation, each and every time, even if that's three times in one minute. So, no, you're not going to spoil them. You're going to teach them that you like them best out of all the babies in the world. So carry them around, read the newspaper to them, look out the window and point at stuff, wave their little arms in the air whenever your team scores a goal and whatever else seems to amuse them, because they don't like being bored either. "

Awww, this is such sweet advice it almost brings tears to my eyes. 

[Terabith]

Unfortunately, the day nanny is a different cousin who also has never been around a child in her life.  So it's the blind leading the blind.  

I absolutely think they are completely well intentioned.  They're entitled, in the sense that they have a lot of money, but they're also truly wonderful people whom I adore.  They just have NO CLUE what parenting entails.  They're both smart, good people who really are trying, and I do think the babies will ultimately be fine.  They are on top of taking them to the doctor and all, and they aren't going to starve to death, because they're being well supervised and are also on a high calorie formula.  They were four weeks premature (36 weeks, so really not all that premature), and were around five pounds each.  There was a short hospital stay because one of them had some minor issues with breathing, but it was like 24 hours.  They truly are just people who have spent their entire lives able to be in control and don't realize (yet) that they can't be 100% in control of tiny humans.  

But they're also massively sleep deprived, and I'm sure that's why they're clinging so hard to the Babywise expectations.  I read Babywise when I was pregnant, but I also read a ton of other books, including Happiest Baby (which they have also read) and Dr. Sears.  And I had spent my teen years nannying and worked part time in grad school in the infant room of a day care, so I went into reading the books with experience, including with colicky babies.  So while I did like the idea of an eat-play-sleep routine, I also knew that real babies were unlikely to have read the chart and that while a general schedule was something to work towards, the most important thing was to read the baby.  I knew enough to know when a book or a pediatrician was an idiot and to ignore them on that topic while taking the good they had to offer.  My oldest was a very sleepy baby whom we had to set alarms to wake her up to feed her often enough, because she really would simply have starved to death.  So having an idea of how frequently babies needed to eat at a minimum was important information for us.  

They definitely love the babies and want to be with them.  They just also want six hours of sleep a night and haven't figured out that the best way to get that might be to not follow the schedules.  And I also have read about relative risks, and I know that while the ultimate safest place for an infant to sleep is on his or her back in his or her own crib, in reality, if the baby isn't sleeping, nobody is all that safe if the caregiver is too sleep deprived to properly care for them.  So yeah, sometimes I brought the baby into my bed (while making sure that we mitigated the risks as much as possible, nobody was drinking alcohol or taking drugs, no pillows or blankets near the baby, etc).  We all got a lot more sleep.  But I totally understand not being comfortable with violating the safe sleep recommendations.  But in reality, what makes them safer is that babies don't sleep as well or as deeply, so they're less likely to forget to breathe.  I also suggested that if the "colicky" baby sleeps better on her stomach (they were saying that the only time she really sleeps is if she's being held or if she's on her belly), that I might put her to sleep on a blanket on the floor on her belly and nap on the couch, keeping half an eye on her, for a couple hours.   Probably not doctor approved advice, but in reality, I have resorted to such things in the interest of everyone getting enough sleep.  

I wish I could go and stay with them for a couple weeks and teach them how to interact with the babies.  That's the kind of thing that books don't do a good job of teaching, and they haven't been around many real life babies to have a real concept of what to do.  Maybe I'll send them a suggested activity each week or something.  When my cousin's mom came to visit (she was so excited to be a grandmother), one of the babies started to cry and she went to pick her up, and my cousin spoke very sharply to his mother and ordered her not to touch the crying baby because it would mess up the schedule.  That's the kind of rigidity that breaks my heart.  They're NEWBORNS.  I mean, if you're at your wit's end and you've checked all the logical things and you can't get the baby to stop crying and you're losing it, absolutely put them down and take a break.  But to say you can't pick up a crying newborn because it violates the schedule....well, it just breaks my heart, and I really hope they realize that that isn't good practice.  I did tell them that I really wasn't a big fan of cry it out with young babies and that I thought it was important to respond to their needs for attachment and to reduce stress hormones.  I said that parents know their babies, that when my oldest was around a year old or so, when I put her down she would fuss sometimes (not full on cry but fuss a bit) for a couple minutes before going to sleep and that if I went in and intervened, it made bedtime stretch out forever, but that that approach completely never worked with my younger one.  That you have to use judgment, but that in GENERAL, I thought it wasn't the best approach.  But I don't think they really listened.  

[Terabith]

They have both been on paternity leave and one has gone back to work.  The other one goes back either this week or next.  They have been bonding, and they were taken aback when they transitioned from the premie literally sleeping pretty much all the time thing to being awake a good bit.  And now that they're awake, they aren't really happy with this being alone thing.  They aren't in the same crib.  (I know, I'd feel better if they were.  I think it might make the little girl cry less.)  They have been bonding with the babies, but I think they're so frazzled by the mechanics of feeding first one child and then the other (and one has reflux and frequently vomits), that they don't really feel they have time to play with or interact with them as individuals or even just cuddle and nurture them recreationally, because they feel that all the time is taken up with the mechanics of meeting their physical needs.  And I've never had twins.  My kids were 17 months apart, but that's totally different, especially at first.  They've been so worried about making sure they are fed and changed and clean that they haven't really taken the time to ENJOY them. 

[sassenach]

I want to cry just reading this. I would intervene using all of my most gentle and persuasive words. 

[Guest]

Other parents or caretakers of twins I know have fed the babies simultaneously. And that is also a time when a parent can interact with the baby by talking or humming or gazing at their faces. 

I also interacted with my babies with any care aspects, like a diaper change or a bath or dressing them, etc. I wonder if the parents don’t do this or don’t realize this? 

[Selkie]

I don't know what Babywise is, but my heart is just breaking for these little babies. I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut.?

[Terabith]

Honestly, I know breastfeeding moms who fed the twins simultaneously, but I'm really not sure practically how you could feed these particular bottle fed newborns simultaneously.  They have reflux and poor neck control, so they need to be supported with one hand (held somewhat upright) to help prevent vomiting, and it takes a hand to hold a bottle.  In a few months I think that might be possible and help.  It might be possible now with pillows and some work, but it would certainly be challenging to feed them at the same time.  

I always use care routines to interact with my kids (both my own and others I was caring for).  My husband and I fed them this time, so I didn't watch them interact with the babies, so I don't have a good sense for if they do that.  So I don't know.  But how would you interact with your child and not realize she can see you???  

My aunt is almost 70, and they really are very condescending towards her.  When she came to visit, they really didn't watch her or listen to her advice and the way they talked about her yesterday made me realize they didn't respect what she had to say.  But SHE certainly knows how to care for and interact with babies.  I think they could have really benefited from her advice, if they'd listened.  Even if they do disagree with her politics, she knows babies.  

[Guest]

Quote

onestly, I know breastfeeding moms who fed the twins simultaneously, but I'm really not sure practically how you could feed these particular bottle fed newborns simultaneously.  They have reflux and poor neck control, so they need to be supported with one hand (held somewhat upright) to help prevent vomiting, and it takes a hand to hold a bottle.  In a few months I think that might be possible and help.  It might be possible now with pillows and some work, but it would certainly be challenging to feed them at the same time.  

One twin mom I know used to bf one and bottle feed the other simultaneously by having the bottle-fed baby in an infant carrier (car seat) at one side. So, she would get the boob baby situated and nursing, then hold the bottle for the other baby in the seat. (She also alternated who was getting nursed vs. Bottle fed.) I don’t know how hard/easy/preposterous or whatever it would be to have babies on each side of you, in baby seats facing towards you and hold a bottle for each at the same time. But I don’t know if that is too awkward with the chokey baby. 

My dd nannies triplets sometimes and I think she feeds two at once. Feeding them subsequently would take too long. 

[wendyroo]

If they are committed to Babywise, then you could recommend this Babywise google group. 

The general underpinnings of Babywise have served me well, and I have been active in that group for almost a decade.  It is full of moms of many who believe in routines and structure, but also have lots of real life child rearing experience and believe that babies and children need to be gently guided and taught, not shoe horned into authoritarian, legalistic schedules.

It might be easier for the new dads to listen to advice from other parents who also believe in the general principles of Babywise (though rarely follow all of the specific recommendations).  They can hear first hand that very few of our newborns automatically fell into a schedule, and that all of us have spent hours upon hours rocking babies who "should" have been asleep.  But that we do value structure, and we do think it is achievable if we just keep consistently, gently guiding babies and helping them gradually develop habits that support the whole family getting the sleep they need (which for some babies and parents is not co-sleeping).

Wendy

[Terabith]

That's a great idea!  A google group might really help them a LOT.  I do think the babies will be fine.  They're pretty sturdy and their parents are well intentioned and love them.  (But it still makes my heart hurt for a newborn to want to be held and for her not to be.)  

[Farrar]

I exclusively bf'ed my twins. It can be done, but it's not always the right course. Mine were really terrible sleepers, but we were super attachment. Terabeth, I'm in DC... I want to run over and hug these babies. Gosh.

I wonder when I read things like this... it's just so hard now. It's super important to respect new parents' ability to raise their own kids, make their own mistakes, and generally do it their way. And every new parent thinks they know everything. A friend and I laughed recently about her new nephew and how her sis knew *everything* and how funny that was from the perspective of having teens and these new parents trying to tell us everything they know. But sometimes it goes beyond that to something like this where a family really doesn't know anything. In literally every culture these things were handed down culturally through observations and practice - through listening to grandma and mom and older sisters and cousins about their children - how to bf, how to get them to sleep, how to play, etc. But now we're not "allowed" to share that information anymore even when families need it because it transgresses a boundary. It makes me really... worried for us. Of course lots of us get it and some people really do want to watch and learn. But for others... it feels like it's yet another way that we're coming apart as a society.

[Terabith]

Yes!  I was telling my mother how we were snuggling those very happy babies when they were whisked out of our arms to be put to bed so as not to interrupt the schedule, and she was just all....doesn't instinct tell you to make faces at your baby and do exaggerated expressions and stuff?  Or do daddies not have those instincts?  And I told her I really didn't think that "how to interact with a baby" was really instinctual but that traditionally we've learned it from watching all the babies in our lives.  But when we no longer live in villages but in big cities where we never see a baby, we don't get that traditional learning.  It really is hard, but especially with older, very educated parents (who know nothing about children), they're very sensitive but simultaneously arrogant and kind of prickly about it.  It makes it hard.  And then you put sleep deprivation on top of that, and it's just so much harder.  My husband and I just tried to be supportive, because I think that's really all they are ready to hear, but I wish I lived there.  I think being of the same generation, I probably could get away with role modeling that they wouldn't take from their parents, but we're four hours away.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Farrar, thank you! I worry about this every day when I compulsively read the Scary Mommy Facebook page. I read it because I do identify with a lot of it. My heart goes out to the young moms, I will always be that way...but there was literally an article this week that said, "Don't tell me how you did anything with your own kids, or what worked in the past (in schools or play groups), or what you ever learned. MYOB unless I ask you for very specific advice, and then only address that one thing, because it makes me feel outraged yet crushed that you might think I don't already know everything." 

What.

OK, but don't then complain about your isolation and loneliness, if you put off vibes that say you are too fragile and hostile to talk to at all. I say this as a MIL who doesn't dole out advice and who assumes my DIL has things under control (seriously, she does, she's amazing)...and she meets me halfway by calmly tolerating my occasional stories. That's, like, social skills on both our parts. Kinda neat.

[LarlaB]

It sounds like they are totally overwhelmed-  and as OP said, parenting is kicking their butts!!!!  They are in a unique, particularly challenging situation and they've chosen a highly structured, somewhat rigid approach (in OP's viewpoint) in how to approach things- an approach which doesn't gel with how OP parents or would like to see the babies parented. 

If they aren't open to outside input, there's not much you can do.  That's a whole other issue, as other posters have addressed.  I have a family member who has been a closed off roller coaster of a parent.   No mommy groups or books for them, or talking to others.  She would occasionally ask a very specific situational question (when IMHO the larger context needed to be dealt addressed) and I was at a total loss of what to even say.. She "went with her heart" for the first two years and they were extreme attachment parenting.  Then second baby came and they went to the total opposite direction with sleep training and spankings for the still BF toddler who suddenly had to be independent and have a nanny- extreme the other way.   It made my heart hurt- for all of them.  

But you know what?  The kids are ok.   Well loved, cared for and fully tended too in most every way. They had 3 kids in 4.5 years and its been a hot mess as they've struggled to cope- but it's their mess and they are forging their familial bond along the way.

And I think that's the key to understand the "why"......In our individualized, Western culture- everyone gets to choose what works for them and the rest of us just need to shut up and be supportive.  ? Or that's the expectation at least. 

IMHO, as OP said, the babies will be well tended to (day and night nannies, plus two parents) and will end up just fine.  They aren't unloved, unattended too or neglected in any way.  Its just a different parenting style that has its own checks and balances.  Ironically, many babies are held 24/7, fed on demand and co-sleep and they STILL cry all of the time for the first few months- so that's not litmus of what is good/bad/otherwise for me. And mercifully, the vast majority of kiddos turn out just fine. My latest soapbox is that the bullseye for 'good parenting' is actually a lot wider than we've been led to believe. We are spinning our wheels and exhausting ourselves trying to do it perfectly right - and obsessing over things that might not actually be that important after all. The gate of good parenting is actually pretty wide!!!


 

[Farrar]

16 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

Farrar, thank you! I worry about this every day when I compulsively read the Scary Mommy Facebook page. I read it because I do identify with a lot of it. My heart goes out to the young moms, I will always be that way...but there was literally an article this week that said, "Don't tell me how you did anything with your own kids, or what worked in the past (in schools or play groups), or what you ever learned. MYOB unless I ask you for very specific advice, and then only address that one thing, because it makes me feel outraged yet crushed that you might think I don't already know everything." 

What.

OK, but don't then complain about your isolation and loneliness, if you put off vibes that say you are too fragile and hostile to talk to at all. I say this as a MIL who doesn't dole out advice and who assumes my DIL has things under control (seriously, she does, she's amazing)...and she meets me halfway by calmly tolerating my occasional stories. That's, like, social skills on both our parts. Kinda neat.

Ugh. That makes me so sad.

And - to be fair - I feel like we've also forgotten how to do the other end. So the people who give the advice... so few of them seem to do it gently, with love and support. It's abrasive and it is intrusive and disrespectful so often. No wonder these parents don't want it. And we assume the worst of everyone about this. Like... there's a situation in my family where someone doesn't agree with how young parents are tending their babies. She'd like to give advice. But she assumes the worst of the young parents - they don't care, they're going to end up neglectful, blah blah, etc. And the young parents assume the worst of her (I mean, no wonder)... she's just trying to be controlling and she's so horrid, she has nothing to offer, she doesn't care about our kids. But they all just want the best for these babies. 

So it's all the way around - all of us pulling apart at the seams. And I feel it especially on intergenerational stuff more than anything else. Like, at least in my life, I feel like things are less tribal in terms of race and ethnicity - but we're more age segregated than ever before. And that's this stuff! How to age stuff.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

And - to be fair - I feel like we've also forgotten how to do the other end. So the people who give the advice... so few of them seem to do it gently, with love and support. It's abrasive and it is intrusive and disrespectful so often. No wonder these parents don't want it. And we assume the worst of everyone about this.

That is true. I have been in a bubble about this - I've not really been there when the younger ones are hearing this stuff. But you're right, that's exactly what they're complaining about. I guess the defensiveness did not come from nowhere. 

I did catch a whiff of it, during the recent Summer of the Wedding, though. DIL had a lot of people just constantly blurting opinions out to her, really bluntly, and it did stress her out. (Half her female relatives, of her mother's and grandmother's generation.) I didn't see any reason for the stream of opinions, in the first place, let alone the blunt "You Shoulds" over every little thing. There is so much in life that does not matter which way you go, in the slightest.

I don't want us pulled apart at the seams. It's such a loss.

[BakersDozen]

3 hours ago, melmichigan said:

I'm wondering if they're taking discharge information a little to far?  We came home with multiples that were premies and needed fed every three hours.  They needed to gain weight and fought jaundice, so they had to be wakened.  We were warned by the staff that they needed to be kept in a low stimulate environment, on and on, the directions went, amount of formula, amount of sleep.  If I hadn't already had a baby I might have taken that information and run with it.  Maybe help them understand that once the babies are adjusted for their due date that doesn't need to be the case?  Gentle encouragement may go a long way.

Our twins were born at 31 weeks and the Babywise concept was used in the NICU (with great success, I must say). I've used Babywise but not fanatically by any means. I think it's more about learning who your baby is and going with what works. The majority of my babies thrived on the feed/wake/sleep routine (and in the beginning especially w/preemies they did go immediately back down after feeding - minimal stimulation). The babies set their own time frame even before we left the NICU (3.5 hours for my girl, 3h15min for my boy...almost like clockwork). Had I been a first-time mom I sure would have kept a spreadsheet of formula/breastmilk because that is exactly what is done in the NICU and it helped my peace of mind greatly. I didn't have a single full-term baby; tubes/wires/weight gain/warmth...I lived in fear of ending back in the hospital because I had done something wrong. If a baby is super fussy and obviously thrives with contact then the need should be met. I hope you are able to talk with the parents or, if not, that they are able to relax and learn to read their babies better. It's hard...goodness, I had to "learn" every one of my babies' needs/preferences. My newest squish loves cuddling and will sleep in someone's arms whereas other babies couldn't stand it. There are so many books and programs but these little ones don't come with their own instruction manuals...darn it.

Edited August 28, 2018 by BakersDozen

[ktgrok]

Can you send some info about stress hormones keeping them from growing as well? That all that crying is burning calories that should be used for gaining weight and growing? Sounds like maybe they'd "get" that more than the softer stuff about bonding?

[Terabith]

I don't think they're weighing diapers.  They are setting goals for how much formula they get into them.  

[LarlaB]

30 minutes ago, BakersDozen said:

Our twins were born at 31 weeks and the Babywise concept was used in the NICU (with great success, I must say). I've used Babywise but not fanatically by any means. I think it's more about learning who your baby is and going with what works. The majority of my babies thrived on the feed/wake/sleep routine (and in the beginning especially w/preemies they did go immediately back down after feeding - minimal stimulation). The babies set their own time frame even before we left the NICU (3.5 hours for my girl, 3h15min for my boy...almost like clockwork). Had I been a first-time mom I sure would have kept a spreadsheet of formula/breastmilk because that is exactly what is done in the NICU and it helped my peace of mind greatly. I didn't have a single full-term baby; tubes/wires/weight gain/warmth...I lived in fear of ending back in the hospital because I had done something wrong. If a baby is super fussy and obviously thrives with contact then the need should be met. I hope you are able to talk with the parents or, if not, that they are able to relax and learn to read their babies better. It's hard...goodness, I had to "learn" every one of my babies' needs/preferences. My newest squish loves cuddling and will sleep in someone's arms whereas other babies couldn't stand it. There are so many books and programs but these little ones don't come with their own instruction manuals...darn it.

 

I have two friends who are NICU nurses and they’ve said the same.... “Babywise” approach works very well.  So not arguing methodology but it’s not like it’s untested and just ‘from a book’. Their work experiences ironically informed my decisions with my first born. Babies needed touch and skin to skin as well... ❤️ 

[Terabith]

They’re now ten weeks, six weeks adjusted, and one is 10.5 lbs and the other is 11 lbs.  They look like pretty normal, slightly chunky even two month olds to me.  Not fat, but healthy chunky looking.  One is a bit leaner than the other but still pretty normal baby looking.  They were over five pounds at birth.  I was actually a little surprised to find out they were on high calorie formula.  

[omishev]

It is so hard when babies you love are not being cared for in the way that you feel is best. My sister read Babywise then started Cry It Out with her 2 week old because she wasn't sleeping well. It turns out the baby wasn't gaining weight and was starving, that's why she wasn't sleeping, not because she needed to be sleep trained! I actually did Babywise with my 3 but followed my own instincts as well. IMO a baby should be held as much as possible and should not be wasting energy crying if you can prevent it. A baby that is well fed and comfortable will sleep the right amount. They do need to sleep practically all the time but it doesn't need to be in bed. How sad to miss all the newborn snuggles! I held my babies all the time until my shoulders/back could take it no longer then gradually started putting them in bed for naps (after rocking them to sleep), definitely did not let them cry at all until about 2 months when we started a very gentle sleep training. 

[omishev]

And yes, I'm sure twins are extremely difficult but not having to recover from pregnancy (I imagine they actually slept decently the prior 9 months) and delivery and not nursing must make a world of difference. Add a night nurse? Wow! But as hard as it is with a newborn (for the rest of us), in hindsight I cherish those memories and am proud of myself.

[Ausmumof3]

10 hours ago, Farrar said:

I exclusively bf'ed my twins. It can be done, but it's not always the right course. Mine were really terrible sleepers, but we were super attachment. Terabeth, I'm in DC... I want to run over and hug these babies. Gosh.

I wonder when I read things like this... it's just so hard now. It's super important to respect new parents' ability to raise their own kids, make their own mistakes, and generally do it their way. And every new parent thinks they know everything. A friend and I laughed recently about her new nephew and how her sis knew *everything* and how funny that was from the perspective of having teens and these new parents trying to tell us everything they know. But sometimes it goes beyond that to something like this where a family really doesn't know anything. In literally every culture these things were handed down culturally through observations and practice - through listening to grandma and mom and older sisters and cousins about their children - how to bf, how to get them to sleep, how to play, etc. But now we're not "allowed" to share that information anymore even when families need it because it transgresses a boundary. It makes me really... worried for us. Of course lots of us get it and some people really do want to watch and learn. But for others... it feels like it's yet another way that we're coming apart as a society.

I think in some ways though the damage was done earlier.  A lot of the previous generation parented based on medical advice that came from a belief that formula was best because it made for fat babies and maybe parenting advice based on a reward and punishment training regime thanks to what’s his name Skinner.  So I think the pattern or passing down baby wisdom was broken already.  Some young mums are definitely better off rejecting their mums advice and looking at current science than replicating an already broken model.

in general though I agree.  I also think that with most families having less babies there’s a whole lot less experience all round.  And that we would be far better off if we did have more involved families and more willingness to involve families.

[Susanna]

How a family feeds the new baby and if they use a schedule is their business. So, I'm not going to tell you what you should do. But I will say from my personal experience that the principles in that book were damaging to my family as well as so many others. It was put on our church resource table and the pastors promoted it. I was so stressed out trying to follow the schedule that I lost the joy of motherhood. I remember setting the clock at 3 hour increments throughout the night and waking up to feed him whether he was hungry or not. I quit after 6 weeks and finally begin to enjoy my baby. We trashed the book and never used it again for any of our other kids. Also left that very controlling church. Do some research on Gary Ezzo He's a very controversial person and has been involved in quite a number of conflicts, including being excommunicated from John MacArthur's Church. 

[laundrycrisis]

Hugs to them - it sounds hard. I would encourage them and tell them they are great dads!  The advice I would give is to use whatever works for them, but that with *any* approach, you have to be flexible once in a while and make adjustments to customize the system.  They are hanging on following instructions to the letter, but it’s okay to make changes.  They may oppose that idea, but still tuck it away and use it at some point. 

[Terabith]

Oh, I’m aware of the controversy about Ezzo.  And as much as Babywise is not the paradigm I chose for parenting, I think it can be a useful tool, especially if it’s not rigidly applied.  Now, if they start using the Toddlerwise and Childwise....well, I think I will probably have to give them my opinion, even if it offends them.  

[Garga]

I didn't want to follow advice given to me by the older generation.  Some things had been learned since then, like about sleep positions and breast vs formula.  I couldn't be sure that what they were telling me was accurate or not.  I'm a reader, so I read lots of books.  

I can understand them being hesitant to listen to advice not from a book.  A lot of times, one makes the assumption that the book writer has done plenty of interviews or had extensive exposure to what they're writing about, so their word feels much more valid that Aunt Violet's word who had 4 kids 30 years ago (small sample size, long ago).  

I agree with other posters that if it's something really important that you want to tell them, perhaps an article will do.  It still might be overstepping because how do you start that off?  "Um....you don't hold your baby enough.  Here's an article about holding babies."  Maybe someone has a good idea on how to get the information to them without sounding like you're judging them.

[marbel]

1 hour ago, Garga said:

<snip>

I agree with other posters that if it's something really important that you want to tell them, perhaps an article will do.  It still might be overstepping because how do you start that off?  "Um....you don't hold your baby enough.  Here's an article about holding babies."  Maybe someone has a good idea on how to get the information to them without sounding like you're judging them.

Yes, I agree. It's very hard to start and it's hard to know how any comments will be received.  Even Rosie's sweet words can be interpreted as condescending if people are of that mind. And it seems impossible to try to give someone gentle guidance without them feeling judged.  People overall seem much more sensitive and much more prone to  listen to experts - meaning people who have written books.

I am surrounded by young moms, young homeschooling moms... mostly they have no desire to hear what I have to say about any of it.  Even if someone mentions something and I share an anecdote about my own experience - not in terms of "here is what you should do" but more like "oh yeah we went through that and..." I can see them shutting down. They just don't want to hear it. 

Shoot, how often on this board do people vent about in-laws, friends, whoever, crossing boundaries by giving unwanted advice?  It's entirely possible that if someone in the shoes of these new parents posted here about a relative who seems not to approve of their parenting and trying to give advice, a lot of posters here would be indignant on their behalf.   

ETA: I am not accusing OP of crossing boundaries!  

Edited August 28, 2018 by marbel

[JennyD]

Oh, how I empathize with them.  I had such a very difficult transition to parenthood, despite having 38 weeks to get used to the idea AND only having one child.  I can't imagine how I would have coped with twins.  Extremely badly, I'm sure.  I'm glad to hear that they are getting some good help.  

The two things that would have been most helpful for me to hear at the time were:

(1) You will sleep again.  Really truly.   It might take a while and you will be utterly exhausted for quite some time, but eventually your child(ren) will go to bed at nighttime and wake up in the morning.  It WILL happen.

(2) Nothing you do now is going to prevent them from sleeping later.  You may or may not be able to get them to sleep through the night sooner (and my own personal opinion is that it's all pretty much a waste of time and you just have to wait for them to get older) but all of those books that say "Unless you do XYZ you will have a teenager sleeping in your bed" are just trying to scare new parents in order to sell more books.  They are wrong, none of it matters.  Just get through the days and nights now as best you can -- they WILL get bigger and they WILL get older and they WILL SLEEP AND SO WILL YOU.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by JennyD