I have new baby cousins....and their parents are using Babywise

[maize]

How about a book like Brain Rules for Babies? It's full of scientific research. I don't remember right now what it says or doesn't say about sleep but I'm pretty sure it addresses the importance of adult responsiveness.

Edited August 28, 2018 by maize

[moonflower]

I dunno, they deliberately created children who will never know their mother (or at least who will not be parented by or live with their mother) in order to satisfy their own desires for offspring.  When you start with that sort of selfishness, how surprising can it be that they'll parent selfishly.

 

Do they know how socially conservative the people who wrote Babywise are?  Do they know about the subsequent books, or the logical conclusion of the philosophy?  Maybe if you bring up either of these points (assuming they're liberals, and not cultish-leaning Christians), they'll shy away from associating themselves with people like the Ezzos.

Ugh, I should not have read this thread, it is so depressing.  As if the standard for a baby is whether they're still alive - that being proof of adequate parenting and moral behavior in regard to a newborn. 

[Scarlett]

20 hours ago, Garga said:

Well, I’ll admit that I used Babywise for my 2nd baby. At the time, I didn’t know that the book was controversial.  My oldest had had colic and cried for hours upon hours every day for months and I held him almost non-stop for about a year.  He was fed on demand, which meant he literally wanted to eat every hour on the hour for a few months, and then moved to every 2 hours for another half year.  He never slept more than 2 hours in a row for 18 months of his life..  He co-slept with me.  He has ADHD which meant he was on the go more than any other kid his age that I knew.  The other moms would look at me kinda funny chasing him around, because they thought I was doing things wrong to make him so hyper.  No, I wasn’t.  An adhd kid is just different.  And hyper—adHd, after all.  

So, for a year and a half, I never slept more than an hour and a half in a row, I held the baby constantly because he almost never slept during the day and was colicky and needed to be held, I couldn’t leave him playing quietly on the floor (after the colic months) while I got things done because he was Demanding (capital D.)

I sunk into a weird form of depression.  The nursing set off happy hormones in me so part of me felt happy and content, but I wasn’t human anymore.  I was just a walking food machine and was beyond seriously sleep deprived, so I also felt useless as a person and chained down.

I knew that when I had the second one, I could never handle both—because I assumed the 2nd one would be exactly like the first (I knew nothing of kids until I had my own.) So, when I found Babywise, it seemed wonderful. Finally, there were tips on how to help baby fall asleep and how often to expect them to eat.

So, yeah.  Babywise.  I fed the baby when they said to (I think it’s supposed to be when they first wake up, so that when it’s time to sleep they don’t need to use you as a human pacifier—which is why my oldest did.). I did let him cry in the crib to fall asleep, but he didn’t cry more than about 7 or 8 minutes or so.  I had charts in place for how much sleep and food to expect Baby to need.  

And everything was fine.  The second baby was like how I hear other people’s experiences are.  Of course, he doesn’t have ADHD and wasn’t colicky, so maybe he’d have been fine no matter what.  And I still held him practically non-stop when he was awake because I loved him to pieces and couldn’t get enough of him.  (Still love him that much!  Love them both that much!)

So, I don’t know.  I have heard that Babywise is bad and it probably is if taken too far.  But I was grateful that it gave me guidelines on how much to feed babies and how much sleep they need.  Because with the first, it was just out of control and not good for baby or me..

 

Oh, this is too long.  Anyway, OP, tell them everything you know about parenting as long as they’re receptive—absolutely do that.  Go ahead and tell them what you know about Babywise that’s bad—perhaps the cases where people take it too far—but also know that there’s a good chance their babies will be fine, even following Babywise.  

I haven't read all the responses, but I too used BW with my son. I didn't know it was controversial and I know I didn't do any of the crazy stuff I have heard like making him eat earlier than he wanted or waking him up to nurse.....I just remember the order of things....and honestly I don't even remember the order now.....LOL....but it worked like a charm for Ds and he began sleeping through the night by 6-8 weeks.  Like midnight to 6.  But I definitely continued to nurse him on demand for however long babies do that.  In the beginning it was every 1 1/2 hours then 2....he just nursed a lot and I was EXHAUSTED.  So when he gave me 6 hours of sleep it was a blessing....and maybe he would have done that on his own without the order of events that I put in place...I don't know.  But all of BW especially the later editions, isn't bad.  Keep the good throw out the bad....but maybe everyone can't do that.  

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I haven't read all the responses, but I too used BW with my son. I didn't know it was controversial and I know I didn't do any of the crazy stuff I have heard like making him eat earlier than he wanted or waking him up to nurse.....I just remember the order of things....and honestly I don't even remember the order now.....LOL....but it worked like a charm for Ds and he began sleeping through the night by 6-8 weeks.  Like midnight to 6.  But I definitely continued to nurse him on demand for however long babies do that.  In the beginning it was every 1 1/2 hours then 2....he just nursed a lot and I was EXHAUSTED.  So when he gave me 6 hours of sleep it was a blessing....and maybe he would have done that on his own without the order of events that I put in place...I don't know.  But all of BW especially the later editions, isn't bad.  Keep the good throw out the bad....but maybe everyone can't do that.  

you'd be surprised how many people think these books are a prefect formula that will work for all babies as long as you follow them strictly enough. If you fed on demand I'd never even consider that in the same category as the hard core babywise people I've known. Feeding on demand was preached as causing babies to grow up into selfish children who would manipulate their parents constantly and rule the house. Seriously. 

Dude, if a baby wants to nurse, nurse it, lol. What the heck else is it going to do, read a book or surf the web or ride a bike? Babies nurse, sleep, look at mom adoringly, and cry. If you can minimize the crying, you're doing good. Nothing else really matters, lol. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

2 hours ago, moonflower said:

I dunno, they deliberately created children who will never know their mother (or at least who will not be parented by or live with their mother) in order to satisfy their own desires for offspring.  When you start with that sort of selfishness, how surprising can it be that they'll parent selfishly.

 

Do they know how socially conservative the people who wrote Babywise are?  Do they know about the subsequent books, or the logical conclusion of the philosophy?  Maybe if you bring up either of these points (assuming they're liberals, and not cultish-leaning Christians), they'll shy away from associating themselves with people like the Ezzos.

Ugh, I should not have read this thread, it is so depressing.  As if the standard for a baby is whether they're still alive - that being proof of adequate parenting and moral behavior in regard to a newborn. 

 

I missed the part where you have met the parents of these babies and learned all about their character and religious and political beliefs. What a truckload of uncharitable assumptions!

The rest of us are looking at parents (and they are the babies' parents) who are not as equipped as they'd intended to be, and who are sleep deprived, and who have a lot to learn, but the OP (who does actually know them) believes that they love their children and will find their way. I have seen biological mothers in the same fix, right down to stubbornly clinging to stupid books instead of leaning into the friends and family around them who are trying to help. Eventually, they realize they are in over their heads and call in some more people, just as the OP's cousins are doing. Nannies, babysitters, daycare workers, preschool teachers, public school, family doctor, coaches, band teachers, friends, friends' parents, neighbors, church members, scouts, ballet, whatever, the village will emerge and the kids will grow up, AGAIN - with parents who love them.

[Ravin]

22 hours ago, Garga said:

These are good points.  I’ve read a bit recently about people transitioning.  Transgender men (I think that’s the correct way to write it) say that when they started taking a lot of testosterone that their personalities changed somewhat.  They gained more “male” ways of thinking and felt more aggression and lost some of their “female” ways of thinking—they lost a bit of their nurturing side.  So there is an element of how Dads bond differently than Moms and maybe these Dads will need some explicit instruction on how best to meet the bonding needs of the babies.

 

I would find some way of gifting them a book or getting other good info into their hands re: Babywise. Certainly the advice you've already given them was good. 

The quoted above, btw, is crap. Trans guys tend to be pretty masculine in our thinking to begin with. Testosterone does make one more likely to want to punch a wall and less likely to cry at the drop of a hat, because of the way hormones regulate emotional responses--not emotions themselves, but, the physical responses to them.

I for one got more nurturing because I was less depressed. Plenty of dads are capable of being nurturing. There is nothing about manhood that prevents it other than taught behaviors--which gay men tend to be quiet aware of, ime. The only practical difference their maleness really imposes on their parenting is that there's no breastfeeding. Personally, it would be a learning curve for me to figure out how to deal with babies without that particular tool. Certainly, holding them is just as crucial when bottle feeding, though--#1 advice I'd have for them is to hold those babies as much as they can, and to have the cribs/bassinets in their room rather than hiring a night nurse. To quote Conan: "Time enough to sleep in the grave." Being able to parent at night can be crucial for bonding when new parents go back to work full time. But even if it's with a night nurse or nanny, they should be encouraging those babies being held. Being bonded to multiple caregivers is fine, as long as they get plenty of human contact. And for that there's no substitute for holding the baby!

[SanDiegoMom]

Tell them to buy two bouncy seats, use the extra inserts that surround their necks for support, and bottle feed them simultaneously. I struggled with breastfeeding myself and gave up after five weeks and this is what I did for my boy/girl twins.  They also slept in their car seats at night until four months. Probably frowned upon, but they really didn't want to sleep flat out in a crib. 

It is a shock, the difficulty of twins.  We were not prepared for how physically exhausting it would be.  I cried A LOT.  I had to go on anti-depressants for six months.  It was so hard.  They didn't sleep through the night until 9 months and until then they woke up at different times in the night and my husband worked long hours so I did all the feedings.  It was SO HARD.  But I couldn't imagine not feeding them or picking them up when they cried. That would have killed me. And my dd, she cried all the time if she wasn't held.  I basically held her the whole first year.

Mine were born at 35 weeks and considered full term, no high calorie formula needed.  One was 4'6 the other 5'2.  

[SKL]

Have they asked their doctor when to expect long sleep times?  They may need to adjust their expectations due to the early birth and possibly other factors.

I have nothing against sleep training actually, provided the parents are open-minded enough to notice what does & doesn't work and make adjustments accordingly.

The night nurse may be a real blessing.  I would not diss it.

My kids came home together at 9mos and 12mos and I became incredibly exhausted trying to figure them out and give them individual time.  And I had lots of experience with kids, AND my kids were great sleepers.  I ended up having to adjust my plans for being an awesome mom, because it was more important to be an alive mom, LOL.  With that said, please give these new parents some grace and offer an ear.  I'm sure they will figure it out eventually.  And the babies will most likely be just fine.

[kiwik]

6 hours ago, moonflower said:

I dunno, they deliberately created children who will never know their mother (or at least who will not be parented by or live with their mother) in order to satisfy their own desires for offspring.  When you start with that sort of selfishness, how surprising can it be that they'll parent selfishly.

 

Do they know how socially conservative the people who wrote Babywise are?  Do they know about the subsequent books, or the logical conclusion of the philosophy?  Maybe if you bring up either of these points (assuming they're liberals, and not cultish-leaning Christians), they'll shy away from associating themselves with people like the Ezzos.

Ugh, I should not have read this thread, it is so depressing.  As if the standard for a baby is whether they're still alive - that being proof of adequate parenting and moral behavior in regard to a newborn. 

We ALL have children for selfish reasons.  Even those who have children because they "are supposed to" do it to avoid judgement.  

 

If they can afford it they should get an experienced nanny who can also gently educate them.

Edited August 29, 2018 by kiwik

[Storygirl]

I think the hive giving advice about what the parents should do may be pointless, since the parents are not actually reading this.

However, I will say that I really disagree with those who have suggested that they feed both babies at once by putting them in bouncy seats or baby carriers. I had two babies to feed at once when we adopted our youngest two at the same time, and it was hard! But cuddling and looking into the eyes of the baby while feeding him or her is the BEST way for bonding, and adoptive parents should spend more time doing this with their new babies, not less. Feeding time should be close and intimate, even if it is by bottle and not by breast.

[bethben]

The dad’s also have to realize that these babies have essentially gone through a trauma of sorts.  They have been separated from the birth mom which may not seem like a big deal to people now, but they are still missing the voice of the woman they heard for their pre-birth days.  They need bonding time more so than a typical birth situation.