Larry Nassar

[Pam in CT]

Tension between "structural safeguards" and "there will always be psychopaths":

 

Perhaps a policy like the Boy Scouts have needs to be implemented in these sports: two-deep leadership. Meaning, a child goes nowhere without TWO background-checked-and-trained-in-youth-protection adults present.

Not foolproof, but it does add a layer of protection.

ETA: It's maddening that this is even a thing. If perps would just STOP then we could be free of this type of thinking/action.

 

I kind of think this is a way of thinking that is not always fruitful.

 

We can think about why we might create certain types of people as a culture.

 

But about 1% of the population, across cultures and even times, are psychopaths.  Maybe 10% of people in the US have BPD or NPD.  Large numbers of people in prisons have these kinds of issues.

 

There will always be people who resist socialization and step outside of social norms.  

 

The thing is, both can be true.

 

Structural safeguards and other appropriate interventions can reduce incidence, even though psychopaths still exist.

 

With scrupulously followed two-deep leadership, the pedophile who takes a job as a camp leader will have fewer opportunities to molest.  Not none, but fewer.  Instead of molesting 8 kids over the course of a summer, perhaps only 2.  That's still ghastly, but it's BETTER.

 

With one-way windows through which parents can watch their kids at any time, coaches inclined to molest will be less inclined to act.  Not never, but less often.  That's still ghastly, but it's BETTER.

 

With an AMA or medical facility credentialing rule that a second professional must be in the examining room, psychopath doctors will have less opportunities.  Not none, but less.  That's still ghastly, but it's BETTER.

 

Hotel housekeeping staff wearing emergency call buttons for when they're assaulted.  Better lighting and ride-home services on college campuses.   Transparency about colleges' reported assault statistics - even if victims choose to maintain confidentiality - so that the subsequent years' crops of students and parents can make informed decisions about campuses' relative safety.  Transparency about the EXISTENCE of financial settlement payouts -- even if the victims choose to maintain confidentiality -- so voters and taxpayers and shareholders respectively can begin to take on a more informed role on accountability and how to do better going forward.

 

 

It is absolutely true that psychopaths will always exist.  It is also true that we can do better, on incidence.

 

 

________

 

A different issue is how ordinary, non-psychopath, run-of-the-bill basically decent men, in numbers quite higher than 1 or 10% of the population, also engage, without necessarily thinking much about it, in allowing and enacting behavior that is inappropriate.  Not psychopathic or violent but inappropriate.  Who don't themselves whip out their stuff in the office but laugh along at rumors that their colleagues do; who don't themselves sit junior colleagues before their computers and open up porn but advise those young colleagues to just ignore it; who don't themselves assault women on campus but attaboy-laugh or look away when they see the prelude in progress.  And etc. and etc. and depressingly etc.

 

That too is very much part is part of the "socialization" problem.  

 

Presumably shifting norms among men of good faith, who do not mean to be part of enabling and sustaining rape culture, is easier than trying to shift the behavior of psychopaths destined for incarceration.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 

I'm also struggling with the concept of camps for young teens and below. I just really don't see the benefit for that age group, other than maybe convenience?  Wouldn't week of day-long activities be just as good to improve skills?

I'm old enough to remember the youngening of women's gymnastics.

When Olga Korbut and then Nadia Comaneci won medals at the Olympics, suddenly other countries had to start their selection and serious training of much younger kids, and train them much more intensely to be in the game at all.

 

I'm not saying that the camps are essential, but they ARE the model used in Eastern Bloc countries at the time, and when those coaches came here they did the same thing here, too.  The difference is that we are a free country with different expectations.  And praise God for that.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Carol in Cal.

[Aura]

Often rural areas don't have funding for things like replacing doors and CCTV. Does their financial restrictions place them at greater risk? Not that it's their fault they don't have money! Just that...they don't. Or does it really matter? Cause if it's a priority to prevent abuse, then you find a way (and I can think of quite a few that don't involve $$$).

[Sk8ermaiden]

Often rural areas don't have funding for things like replacing doors and CCTV. Does their financial restrictions place them at greater risk? Not that it's their fault they don't have money! Just that...they don't. Or does it really matter? Cause if it's a priority to prevent abuse, then you find a way (and I can think of quite a few that don't involve $$$).

 

Yeah, I wouldn't buy it if a gym said it. DD's gym's owner is HIDEOUSLY tight fisted and they have CCTV. It was not expensive at all. And it protects both the coaches and the kids. 

[Sk8ermaiden]

Also on two-deep leadership. I think that is a great thing for preventing sexual abuse, but does very little to prevent emotional and verbal abuse and a culture of fear. DD's old gym ALWAYS had at least two coaches with the girls, but it was the culture of that gym to be abusive, so....

[Aura]

An iconic rock on Michigan State's campus is covered with the names of Larry Nassar's victims

[gardenmom5]

Institutions in general are subject to corruption, and evil individuals using them for personal advantage.  The same things that make them useful are what make them appealing to these people.  

 

To say, have no more institutions is not, IMO, a doable approach.  There are things you can do to make them responsive when something is going wrong in a new way, but there will always be a new way I suspect.

 

I do think that there are some where it is worse though, or maybe are especially problematic in particular areas, and while maybe they should be destroyed, I think it's really important to think about why those ones in particular have such problems.  I think when we look closely at elite sports, there are basic problems with some of it's goals.  Hollywood has similar serious flaws as they operate now that IMO make them very prone to certain kinds of abuses.   Politics in some countries as well. In all cases I don't see starting a new organization as being effective unless it somehow modifies those elements.

 

those systemic s3xual abuses in hollywood go back to the beginning.    - it's not "now" - it always has been. actresses from the 20's have reported it.

[snowbeltmom]

I hope the head of the NCAA is the next to step down. Here is a snippet from the linked article:

 

According to the Athletic, Emmert was informed of some 37 cases of sexual assault at MSU, including one implicating basketball players Adreian Payne and Keith Appling, in 2010.

 

Kathy Redmond, the founder of the National Coalition Against Violent Athletes, told the Athletic she wrote a letter to Emmert detailing the incidents at MSU and what she was hoping she could do to address the problem.

 

"Despite recent reports of sexual violence involving two Michigan State University (MSU) basketball players, one of which admitted to raping the victim, neither man was charged criminally or even disciplined by the school," Redmond's letter read. "An earlier report of similar violence involving two other MSU basketball players also went un-redressed. In the past two years alone, 37 reports of sexual assault by MSU athletes have been reported, but not one disciplinary sanction was imposed by school officials against any of the men involved."

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-basketball-football-michigan-state-mark-emmert-mark-dantonio-larry-nassar/1fmq82mpny78c1uphsv2ovpyvb

[ktgrok]

Often rural areas don't have funding for things like replacing doors and CCTV. Does their financial restrictions place them at greater risk? Not that it's their fault they don't have money! Just that...they don't. Or does it really matter? Cause if it's a priority to prevent abuse, then you find a way (and I can think of quite a few that don't involve $$$).

 

For a hundred bucks or so a video baby monitor could be set up, or other camera. If 10 parents chip in $10 it is paid for.

[snowbeltmom]

The Michigan State basketball coach had these words at a recent press conference:

"Our top priority in this healing process is for our courageous survivors," Izzo said. "As a campus community, we do need to come together as Spartans to be a part of that healing process. And it’s going to fall on all of us."

 

Maybe it is just me, but I feel "courageous survivors" has too positive of a connotation and fails to acknowledge Michigan State's culpability in this tragedy. These girls were victims of abuse due to the corrupt culture at Michigan State.

I believe that the Michigan State officials should acknowledge that in their statements by using the word "victim."

 

ESPN has issued a report about both the basketball and football coach. The football coach "punished" one of his players accused of rape by making him call his mother and tell her what he did. WTH?

 

Here is a snippet:

After ESPN’s “Outside the Lines†released an investigation into the school’s treatment of sexual violence accusations on Friday, Spartans coaches Mark Dantonio and Tom Izzo might be on shaky ground, as well.

 

Paula Lavigne’s reporting points toward a decades-long pattern where Michigan State failed to properly address accusations that disgraced athletic physician Nassar, as well as prominent athletes and coaches, sexually assaulted or physically abused women.

 

The ESPN story revealed that at least 16 Michigan State football players have been accused of sexual assault or violence against women since Dantonio became the Spartans’ coach in 2007. A former campus sexual assault counselor implied that Dantonio’s punishment for one player accused of sexual assault was to have him talk to his mother about what he had done.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidching/2018/01/26/espn-report-pulls-mark-dantonio-tom-izzos-programs-into-michigan-state-scandal/#6166baf856d7

[maize]

I think it is exactly the same issue with school teachers that it is with coaches. How many teachers behaving badly have been caught now that most teens carry cell phones? And how many times a year do we learn of a teacher who was sexually abusing a student? Now, having parents in the room isn't feasible. You can't build parent viewing into every classroom. What the solution there is, I don't know. (And none of the school boards do either; I have NEVER heard any proposed solution to that issue.) I think the idea is supposed to be that teachers are accountable to someone. And you can take it up the chain, all the way to the school board and the court, because there are legal protocalls schools have to abide by. They get federal funding....

 

But there also is a culture issue. What percentage of teachers do you think are abusive (counting all types, not just sexual)? How many coaches? Because I'd put coaches at 15-60% depending on which sport, while I don't think teachers are anywhere near that high. I have a real and vested interest in making sure my kid is in a healthy environment for this totally optional, but completely amazing thing she does.

 

And most gyms don't have parents "in the room" where they're interfering with the kids' focus. Especially in gymnastics, they're usually apart, often on a second floor, with a view of the gym. Our new gym has closed circuit TVs for the rooms we can't see, which is nice too. As mentioned before, 2 way mirrors are an option too.

I believe the percentage of male sports coaches is higher than the percentage of male teachers.

 

And sadly I think that is a factor in higher levels of abuse among coaches.

 

Yes females can engage in all types of abuse but rates are significantly lower.

[Aura]

The Michigan State basketball coach had these words at a recent press conference:

"Our top priority in this healing process is for our courageous survivors," Izzo said. "As a campus community, we do need to come together as Spartans to be a part of that healing process. And it’s going to fall on all of us."

 

Maybe it is just me, but I feel "courageous survivors" has too positive of a connotation and fails to acknowledge Michigan State's culpability in this tragedy. These girls were victims of abuse due to the corrupt culture at Michigan State.

I believe that the Michigan State officials should acknowledge that in their statements by using the word "victim."

 

ESPN has issued a report about both the basketball and football coach. The football coach "punished" one of his players accused of rape by making him call his mother and tell her what he did. WTH?

 

Here is a snippet:

After ESPN’s “Outside the Lines†released an investigation into the school’s treatment of sexual violence accusations on Friday, Spartans coaches Mark Dantonio and Tom Izzo might be on shaky ground, as well.

 

Paula Lavigne’s reporting points toward a decades-long pattern where Michigan State failed to properly address accusations that disgraced athletic physician Nassar, as well as prominent athletes and coaches, sexually assaulted or physically abused women.

 

The ESPN story revealed that at least 16 Michigan State football players have been accused of sexual assault or violence against women since Dantonio became the Spartans’ coach in 2007. A former campus sexual assault counselor implied that Dantonio’s punishment for one player accused of sexual assault was to have him talk to his mother about what he had done.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidching/2018/01/26/espn-report-pulls-mark-dantonio-tom-izzos-programs-into-michigan-state-scandal/#6166baf856d7

 

Re: the bolded, I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but I feel that "survivor" is one of those terms that some "victims" prefer. It could easily be that they had someone proof that statement before they released it so that they weren't causing any additional offense. I wouldn't be concerned about that.

 

The REST of it, however, is sickening. I can't "like" it, but I'm glad it's being revealed and shared, along with other posts showing these things.

[Guest]

Are you OK with judges threatening those they are sentencing with threats of rape and speaking of giving them death warrants, Susan?

 

Is this the way a civilized legal system operates? You've studied civilizations, history, and justice.

 

Should such a judge be cheered?

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

What I actually said was, You've made your point.

 

You've made your point.

 

Knock it off. And also, the ad hominem attacks and accusatory rhetorical questions are not appreciated.

 

SWB

[Bluegoat]

I think it is exactly the same issue with school teachers that it is with coaches. How many teachers behaving badly have been caught now that most teens carry cell phones? And how many times a year do we learn of a teacher who was sexually abusing a student? Now, having parents in the room isn't feasible. You can't build parent viewing into every classroom. What the solution there is, I don't know. (And none of the school boards do either; I have NEVER heard any proposed solution to that issue.) I think the idea is supposed to be that teachers are accountable to someone. And you can take it up the chain, all the way to the school board and the court, because there are legal protocalls schools have to abide by. They get federal funding....

 

But there also is a culture issue. What percentage of teachers do you think are abusive (counting all types, not just sexual)? How many coaches? Because I'd put coaches at 15-60% depending on which sport, while I don't think teachers are anywhere near that high. I have a real and vested interest in making sure my kid is in a healthy environment for this totally optional, but completely amazing thing she does. 

 

And most gyms don't have parents "in the room" where they're interfering with the kids' focus. Especially in gymnastics, they're usually apart, often on a second floor, with a view of the gym. Our new gym has closed circuit TVs for the rooms we can't see, which is nice too. As mentioned before, 2 way mirrors are ation opn too.

My sense is that across a lot of organizations, you see similar levels of people who are in some way abusive.  In organizations that deal with vulnerable people like kids, they are often going to be people who want to take advantage of those people.  

 

I do have a sense that coaching can be higher than that, at least if you include types of behaviour besides sexual abuse.  My sense has been that this is because of certain things we take for granted with sports in particular, some of which I've mentioned up-thread - I'm not a fan of elite sports.  But i also think that some of them are things we value and it becomes easy to cross the line.  So for example, working through discomfort and pushing yourself, trying to do your best and perfect a skill, team bonding - these can all be positive things.  So sometimes people don't recognize when these become a problem, or turn into similar seeming but negative values.  And some values, like fun or health, quietly get dropped along the way and they no longer constrain people.

 

Those attitudes can lead to a tendency to abuse and it turns into an environment that reinforces itself, like in a prison or other place where people start to normalize behaviours.

 

I have seen this from time to time in high pressure music, dance, and academics, but not as often.

[Bluegoat]

I'm old enough to remember the youngening of women's gymnastics.

When Olga Korbut and then Nadia Comaneci won medals at the Olympics, suddenly other countries had to start their selection and serious training of much younger kids, and train them much more intensely to be in the game at all.

 

I'm not saying that the camps are essential, but they ARE the model used in Eastern Bloc countries at the time, and when those coaches came here they did the same thing here, too.  The difference is that we are a free country with different expectations.  And praise God for that.

 

Nationalism in sports has a lot to answer for.  How winning a medal for skating shows that communism or capitalism or anything is a better model is really beyond me.  

 

The eastern bloc countries used to put their athletes in the army so they could remain "amateur" while being paid to train all day - something that was really never dreamed of unless you happened to be very rich and crazy.

 

 So we created a parallel system to compete and allow people to essentially train full time at the high visibility sports.

[Spy Car]

nm

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Susan Wise Bauer
Not sure what part of "you've made your point" is not clear.

[Bluegoat]

those systemic s3xual abuses in hollywood go back to the beginning.    - it's not "now" - it always has been. actresses from the 20's have reported it.

 

Yes, some of them also existed in the past, and some existed in the past that don't now.

 

The studio system used to be one way of controlling actors.  Money and fame have always been big, and maybe a sense of Hollywood being liberal and open.  One that is different now is the level of contracted sexual behaviour in film.

[Sk8ermaiden]

I believe the percentage of male sports coaches is higher than the percentage of male teachers.

 

And sadly I think that is a factor in higher levels of abuse among coaches.

 

Yes females can engage in all types of abuse but rates are significantly lower.

 

Interesting. This thought never occurred to me because of my limited experience; three of the five gym coaches I have personally witnessed being abusive to gymnasts were female. I can see how that could easily play a part. 

 

Also, I agree with whoever said that the victims of Nassar actively rebranded themselves survivors. And I think that that should be respected, to the extent that we can.

[Supertechmom]

Some info on stats...... I participated recently in a 40 hour assault class, domestic violence and elder abuse class (child issues are a separate class outside of this particular certification though it did cover from puberty - age 9ish -10ish)  The stats are for my particular state which I don't care to disclose as the above is enough is enough to out me IRL if coupled with some other posts.

 

These are rough numbers as I wrote down ish numbers and not the actual down to the decimal point 

 

From my state (around 5 million)

 

One woman a week dies from domestic violence.

 

Sexual assault exams/ protocol medications and follow up visits are paid through victim services. They report paying out  over 5152 claims in the last reported year.  

 

The police in the same state in the same year reported 1100ish cases reported,filed, paperwork done.

 

The State attorney stated the same year less than 1% of all cases are taken to trial but a little over 10% are plea bargained out to lesser charges and don't go through court.   Stated the rates were on par with the rest of the nation. 

 

Don't know whether the following was national level or still just my state

 

19.3% of women raped in their life

43.9% have experienced sexual violence

8.8% been raped by partner

40% raped before 18

 

We have entire counties that have 0 rape from the law side and hundreds and hundreds of rape kits from the medical side.

 

Staggering.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

Institutions in general are subject to corruption, and evil individuals using them for personal advantage.  The same things that make them useful are what make them appealing to these people.  

 

To say, have no more institutions is not, IMO, a doable approach.  There are things you can do to make them responsive when something is going wrong in a new way, but there will always be a new way I suspect.

 

I do think that there are some where it is worse though, or maybe are especially problematic in particular areas, and while maybe they should be destroyed, I think it's really important to think about why those ones in particular have such problems.  I think when we look closely at elite sports, there are basic problems with some of it's goals.  Hollywood has similar serious flaws as they operate now that IMO make them very prone to certain kinds of abuses.   Politics in some countries as well. In all cases I don't see starting a new organization as being effective unless it somehow modifies those elements.

 

I don't know that anyone thinks that no institutions is a good policy, but I do think the core can be so rotten that you have no choice but to start over with a special focus on changing the contributing factors. I do think we need to start looking at the top and moving down the ladder. I am still stunned at the idea USA Gymnastics actually sent a letter warning the US Olympic Committee when the USOC told them they COULD NOT automatically fire coaches with FELONY sexual assault charges!!!!!! I am too lazy right now to go find my own article that I linked, but will do so shortly.

 

What the heck? 

Edited January 29, 2018 by swimmermom3

[Aura]

<snip>

 

Don't know whether the following was national level or still just my state

 

19.3% of women raped in their life

43.9% have experienced sexual violence

8.8% been raped by partner

40% raped before 18

 

We have entire counties that have 0 rape from the law side and hundreds and hundreds of rape kits from the medical side.

 

Staggering.

 

How do these two line up? Are they saying that 19.3% have been raped over the age of 18, while 40% have been raped under? Or is the 19.3% out of the remaining women who hadn't already been raped, so 19.3% of 60%? And does the 43.9% include the 40% or in addition to that?

 

All of it horrendous, though.

 

And that last sentence is A.W.F.U.L. Makes me wonder about the culture of the LEO of those counties.

[Laurie4b]

Re: coaches vs. teachers. 

 

My recall from news stories is that the majority of teachers who sexually abuse students have a limited number of victims, often only one,  whereas coaches can go through vast numbers of victims. Teachers would have a hard time committing sexual abuse within the school building, even during after hours. There are just too many chances that other adults will walk in on them.  Coaches have the ability to abuse higher numbers of victims because on overnight trips, camps, etc. there are typically many fewer adults---maybe only one--chaperoning a large group of athletes. .It's much easier to know where one other chaperone is than to anticipate the random person walking down the hall at school.  

 

All the schools I've ever worked in had glass windows in the doors. 

[LMD]

An iconic rock on Michigan State's campus is covered with the names of Larry Nassar's victims

Love!

[LMD]

How do these two line up? Are they saying that 19.3% have been raped over the age of 18, while 40% have been raped under? Or is the 19.3% out of the remaining women who hadn't already been raped, so 19.3% of 60%? And does the 43.9% include the 40% or in addition to that?

 

All of it horrendous, though.

 

And that last sentence is A.W.F.U.L. Makes me wonder about the culture of the LEO of those counties.

I read it as 40% of that 19% happens before age 18.

[Supertechmom]

How do these two line up? Are they saying that 19.3% have been raped over the age of 18, while 40% have been raped under? Or is the 19.3% out of the remaining women who hadn't already been raped, so 19.3% of 60%? And does the 43.9% include the 40% or in addition to that?

 

All of it horrendous, though.

 

And that last sentence is A.W.F.U.L. Makes me wonder about the culture of the LEO of those counties.

 

We took it to mean roughly 20% of all woman are raped. And then 40% of that were raped before 18. Leaving 60% raped after 18. Which is sad to know that the oldest rape victim was 101. And that nearly a majority of women have been assaulted before adulthood. And that for this training, girls in puberty even as young as 9 and 10 are being lumped into adult stats/treatments in some areas that don't have designated separation of that population.

 

As for LEO, you can have anonymous kits and refuse police involvement. The victim gets to decide to move forward. So some of that figure is because the victim refused law involvement. Some is because the evidence won't support a charge so no charge. But some most certainly is because the victim doesn't feel enough support from the community to move forward.

[gardenmom5]

The Michigan State basketball coach had these words at a recent press conference:

"Our top priority in this healing process is for our courageous survivors," Izzo said. "As a campus community, we do need to come together as Spartans to be a part of that healing process. And it’s going to fall on all of us."

 

an msu basketball coach says this.   as in-  one who works with male ball players . . . .

 

the cynic in me wonders if he is referring to the "courageous 'ball-players who've been accused of committing s3xual violence and got claims against them dropped' survivors" to whom he's referring. . . . . .

[sassenach]

SWB, my hero.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

SWB, my hero.

Yes! One of the times I really wish we could “like†admin and moderator posts.

[sassenach]

Yes! One of the times I really wish we could “like†admin and moderator posts.

All the time! Rosie especially drives me crazy. 1000 likes for Rosie! (and SWB, of course)

[snowbeltmom]

an msu basketball coach says this.   as in-  one who works with male ball players . . . .

 

the cynic in me wonders if he is referring to the "courageous 'ball-players who've been accused of committing s3xual violence and got claims against them dropped' survivors" to whom he's referring. . . . . .

Someone else provided the perspective that the victims would rather be referred to as survivors, which makes sense. His response still bugs me. Yes, it is great that he wants the community to come together and heal, but it seems like he just wants everyone to move forward, when MSU should be looking backward to figure out how something like this could have happened. But in light of new information that has come to light about this coach's program since the coach made those comments, I can see why he wants to focus on the community healing and doesn't want to discuss things that happened in the past.

 

Yikes, this is a rambling response and I am not articulating my feelings very well. It just seems to me that his response is typical of an abuser that just wants his victim to let bygones be bygones and focus on the future and healing, when real healing can't take place until the root problem is fixed.

[Scarlett]

Nope. There’s the man on my mom’s birth certificate who was stationed overseas when she was conceived and born. There was this man. Those were the only two possibilities that my grandmother ever let on about. But whomever it was, he was of european descent and that eliminates this person who was verifiably of mixed ancestry and was definitely born at a segregated institution.

 

So that’s two people who it is not and, well any one else my grandmother may have spent time with sometime in the last part of 1953. So more or less it could be any man of european descent in a large swath of the state of Kentucky. And I just don’t care who it might be, I’m glad it’s not that dude though. It’s highly likely my grandmother truly died not knowing who my mom’s father was for sure. Or that she knew it wasn’t this man but lied to my mom on purpose. That’s also a distinct possibility. She was really quite awful but she came from an awful place and reflected that out on everyone else.

 

 

You have uploaded your DNA to ancestory.com?  My mom found her bio dad through his grand daughter.....which led her to an uncle...which led her to a half sister....and the half sister (at age 83) took the DNA to confirm that they are half sisters and thus my mom verified who who bio dad was even though he is long dead.

[maize]

All the time! Rosie especially drives me crazy. 1000 likes for Rosie! (and SWB, of course)

Yes, Likes for Rosie!!!

[Pam in CT]

It's like a poster at a women's march or something.

 

 

 

Yes, Likes for Rosie!!!

 

[gardenmom5]

Someone else provided the perspective that the victims would rather be referred to as survivors, which makes sense. His response still bugs me. Yes, it is great that he wants the community to come together and heal, but it seems like he just wants everyone to move forward, when MSU should be looking backward to figure out how something like this could have happened. But in light of new information that has come to light about this coach's program since the coach made those comments, I can see why he wants to focus on the community healing and doesn't want to discuss things that happened in the past.

 

Yikes, this is a rambling response and I am not articulating my feelings very well. It just seems to me that his response is typical of an abuser that just wants his victim to let bygones be bygones and focus on the future and healing, when real healing can't take place until the root problem is fixed.

 

 

yeah - that' was rather my point.  he doens't come across as having any sincerity about caring for female victims, just make it go away so they can get back to what they were doing - but I'll bet he does lots of complaining when his ball players are accused of s3xual violence against women.

[maize]

There is absolutely no reason for them to be alone with the coach for private lessons. Not a single player I knew would have ever been alone for a private lesson, and most of us had them. I'm sure it's happened, but I highly doubt it would be anywhere the same level of these other sports. In my entire tenure playing the sport, including college, I was never alone with a coach (including my "private" lessons).

But if the coach wanted the lessons to be truly private that wouldn't be hard to manipulate...

[Caroline]

Every time you say “It couldn’t happen in...â€.or “It never happened in...†you are telling a victim that it was her fault. You may not mean that. But that’s what you are saying. You are saying, “You did something wrong because it couldn’t have happened in softball if you did things right.†Think about it.

[Catwoman]

Welcome to the forum, kdsuomi! :)

 

How did you find the WTM forum? Are you a homeschooler?

 

Glad you decided to join us!

Edited January 30, 2018 by Catwoman

[Laurie4b]

Someone else provided the perspective that the victims would rather be referred to as survivors, which makes sense. His response still bugs me. Yes, it is great that he wants the community to come together and heal, but it seems like he just wants everyone to move forward, when MSU should be looking backward to figure out how something like this could have happened. But in light of new information that has come to light about this coach's program since the coach made those comments, I can see why he wants to focus on the community healing and doesn't want to discuss things that happened in the past.

 

Yikes, this is a rambling response and I am not articulating my feelings very well. It just seems to me that his response is typical of an abuser that just wants his victim to let bygones be bygones and focus on the future and healing, when real healing can't take place until the root problem is fixed.

 

 

Yesireebob, move forward everyone.

 

Moving forward is a way of not owning it, of pushing it into the past so they don't have to think about it anymore. Whew! Glad that's over, let's move forward.  How bout them Spartans! Go Green! 

 

No one serious about this would be talking about moving forward. It's like saying that the first  day after a funeral. 

 

Now is the time for mourning. Now is the time for really honest self-evaluation. Now it the time for really hard evaluation of the institution that you loved. Now is the time to acknowledge that what you loved didn't actually exist. Now is the time to feel uncomfortable because what you had always thought about your institution and what the reality is don't match. Now is the time to acknowledge that the institution was corrupt, not glorious, warm-fuzzy, rah-rah college memories but a place where girls and young women were assaulted and all the other grown-ups looked away. The university is arguing in court that it had no duty to warn. #*@$& that.  Now is the time to begin the hard process of repentance and change. 

 

And it sure as heck won't begin with someone who wants to prematurely move forward.   :crying:  :cursing:  :crying:  :cursing:  :crying:

[Rosie_0801]

I do have a sense that coaching can be higher than that, at least if you include types of behaviour besides sexual abuse.  My sense has been that this is because of certain things we take for granted with sports in particular, some of which I've mentioned up-thread - I'm not a fan of elite sports.  But i also think that some of them are things we value and it becomes easy to cross the line.  So for example, working through discomfort and pushing yourself, trying to do your best and perfect a skill, team bonding - these can all be positive things.  So sometimes people don't recognize when these become a problem, or turn into similar seeming but negative values.  And some values, like fun or health, quietly get dropped along the way and they no longer constrain people.

 

Those attitudes can lead to a tendency to abuse and it turns into an environment that reinforces itself, like in a prison or other place where people start to normalize behaviours.

 

Then add:

 

"Trust us/them, we/they're the expert."

"Turn the other cheek."

"They meant well."

"They deserve the benefit of the doubt."

"Take the high road."

"It's not my/your place to interfere."

"You're a better person than I am" to people who stay neutral/ preach forgiveness.

Etc.

[shawthorne44]

I wonder if MSU's stature will take a tumble now?  I just glimpsed a news link about a MSU professor saying something about Yoga equals White Supremacy.  I haven't read the article and it was mostly 'MSU' that jumped out at me.  It made me think about MSU.    I know if DD was old enough to be college shopping, I would tell her that MSU was Off the table.   Totally and completely, not an option.    If enough parents think the same, and enough people link Nassar = MSU in their brains, this could be devastating to them.  

 

[Carol in Cal.]

The most thorough take on forgiveness in this situation that I have seen so far:  (Christian content)

 

http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/30/one-survivors-shows-forgive-monster-like-larry-nassar/#.WnB4AHIJjrM.facebook

[DesertBlossom]

Every time you say “It couldn’t happen in...â€.or “It never happened in...†you are telling a victim that it was her fault. You may not mean that. But that’s what you are saying. You are saying, “You did something wrong because it couldn’t have happened in softball if you did things right.†Think about it.

 

I didn't think she was saying it's the victim's fault at all. The onus is on the coaches, the organization, the parents, etc to put those safety measures in place and make sure they adhere to them. If there isn't 2 deep leadership, the blame should fall on those whose job it was to keep kids safe.

[DesertBlossom]

dp 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by DesertBlossom

[Bluegoat]

Every time you say “It couldn’t happen in...â€.or “It never happened in...†you are telling a victim that it was her fault. You may not mean that. But that’s what you are saying. You are saying, “You did something wrong because it couldn’t have happened in softball if you did things right.†Think about it.

 

I don't think the implication was it would never or could never happen.

 

Only that in some sports it might be less likely.

 

That seems like it would be kind of obvious to me that some set-ups and sports make it a lot easier to get away with things.  I'm not expecting to hear any really shocking revelations about pickle ball.  Not that it's impossible.

 

And even if there is abuse in a less likely sport, how does it follow that the victim did something wrong?

[TechWife]

Am I missing some news, or has the NCAA been mysteriously silent about this? They were all over Penn State relatively quickly, but I’m hearing crickets about MSU. Shouldn’t they be doing something?

[unsinkable]

Hockey has "traditions" that make/made it easier for abuse to happen. Junior players (teens) have left their homes and moved to other cities to live with coaches or boosters. So that is another situation where young people are separated from their parents in order to advance in their sport and some were abused.

[Laurie4b]

Am I missing some news, or has the NCAA been mysteriously silent about this? They were all over Penn State relatively quickly, but I’m hearing crickets about MSU. Shouldn’t they be doing something?

 

https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/01/28/mark-emmert-ncaa-michigan-state-investigation-larry-nassar

 

Well, they are in a bit of bind. You see, 8 years ago, the  NCAA was informed of 37 reports of sexual assault by athletes at MSU against other students--none of which had any disciplinary action taken. NCAA? Yawn. 

 

Kinda hard to investigate when you yourself should be investigated.

[Corraleno]

Am I missing some news, or has the NCAA been mysteriously silent about this? They were all over Penn State relatively quickly, but I’m hearing crickets about MSU. Shouldn’t they be doing something?

They sent a letter to MSU "opening an inquiry" into the handling of the Nassar case about a week ago, but as far as I can tell, that is the limit of the investigation — no "inquiry" into the many many reported sexual assails by athletes against female students.

 

And considering NCAA's own role in the scandal, and the fact that the MSU president was on the NCAA board of directors while it was happening, they really aren't in a position to throw many stones. From an article in Sports Illustrated:

 

 

 

The NCAA, Michigan State could insist, has unclean hands: it is implicated in the same scandal and thus has an inherent conflict of interest. In fact, the NCAA may possess legal and financial incentives to see that blame is directed away from itself and toward other institutions—such as Michigan State. Arguably, then, the NCAA can’t objectively evaluate allegations against Michigan State. Perhaps the NCAA should even cede its enforcement authority in this particular controversy.[/size]

[snowbeltmom]

Am I missing some news, or has the NCAA been mysteriously silent about this? They were all over Penn State relatively quickly, but I’m hearing crickets about MSU. Shouldn’t they be doing something?

As others have said, it appears that the NCAA also knew about the abuse at MSU and did nothing. Unless some outside agency gets involved, I am afraid all that we will hear will be crickets and the status quo will continue. The media, imo, needs to begin investigating. I am not sure I trust ESPN to conduct a thorough investigation, either. I think it needs to be some organization with no connection to sports.

 

ETA: Post #905 has a link to an article that states that the head of the NCAA was informed on the abuse that was occurring at MSU years ago and did NOTHING.

Here is a snippet from the article (which discussed abuse by the basketball and football teams at MSU)

Emmert reportedly corresponded with Redmond repeatedly on the issue and was trying to help. However, she found after a while it was clear his hands were tied as the issue was simply bigger than him. {Added by me for clarity}

 

“What I {individual who filed the complaint}really got from the experience with Mark Emmert{Head of NCAA} was, that governing body governs him,†Redmond said. “He met with me, which was great and I appreciated that. But the governing board has an awful lot of power. … It’s a strange setup. You do kind of get the fox guarding the hen house mentality. You do feel like the NCAA doesn’t like to do investigations because they like their relationships (with university officials and conferences). I think Mark Emmert came in with the right tone but quickly realized, ‘There’s not a lot I can do here.’ â€

 

 

BOTTOM LINE: The Almighty Dollar Wins Again.

Edited January 30, 2018 by snowbeltmom

[LucyStoner]

You have uploaded your DNA to ancestory.com? My mom found her bio dad through his grand daughter.....which led her to an uncle...which led her to a half sister....and the half sister (at age 83) took the DNA to confirm that they are half sisters and thus my mom verified who who bio dad was even though he is long dead.

I am not interested in finding out who my biological grandfather is. Just happy to know who it is not.