Larry Nassar

[Sk8ermaiden]

Oh and for the record, gyms that have this policy claim it is basically to prevent crazy gym moms ("Why did Susie get 5 turns and Jane only 4!?") and distractions. (My child seriously will look at me every time she does beam. I have to physically leave the room. I hide at meets. So I get it.) But if you're that worried put in two way mirrors or closed circuit TVs and make a stricter parent behavior policy. Restricting parent access is not the answer.

[Lostinabook]

I don't want to be accused of gender slurs, but we all know what the common feature is of the majority of those at the top...

 

 

That's true, but there are women who are complicit too. The uni president was a women, the gymnastics coach who discouraged reporting Nassar was a women, two of the three lawyers defending Nassar in part by being hateful to his accusers were women, several of the trainers who blew off the women's/girls' stories were women, not to mention Marta Karolyi's special brand of awful. I do get what you're saying, and I'm not denying that the boys club atmosphere at the top is a problem, but there are plenty of horrible women as well.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Lostinabook

[snowbeltmom]

This I cannot comprehend. For pity's sake, the doors in our church's children's program are open (with gates for toddlers and younger) the whole time kids are in the rooms. Which, frankly, is a pitb as a caregiver because every time someone walks by a kid flips out b/c s/he thinks a parent should be coming, BUT as a parent I thought it was great.  

 

I'm sure there are sports parents who are the equivalent of stage parents and don't care what happens as long as the kids "makes it", but I'm guessing that maybe most parents are also groomed? I'm trying to come up with a reasonable, charitable explanation for why you would allow your kid in a program which doesn't allow any parent supervision.

There are parents out there who are verbally abusive, not only to their kids, but also to the other participants. Parents are permitted to watch group lessons in my kids' sport (at least in my area), but there have been times when the owner of a facility has had to escort a parent out because he was verbally abusing the other participants during a group lesson. There are some crazy intense parents out there. I know of one extreme case when the governing board banned a parent from being on the premises for 6 months because he had to be restrained from physically assaulting his 10 year old son's opponent.

[FaithManor]

Does anyone know anything about Texas law? Is there some possibility that mandatory reporting laws there could apply to MSU employees and coaches when they worked at the ranch? Is the Attorney General there looking at action?

 

I have also wondered about international law. If any of the girls reported abuse to their coaches while competing abroad, would the laws of the host nation apply? Do any of the host nations besides ours have mandatory reporting laws? I am curious about this because the U.S. is a bit of a weird place legally speaking with fifty individual states all having their own laws in the matter and no federal law specific to reporting. If an athlete makes a complaint say in London and the coach/doc/trainer or whomever does not contact police, can their be G.B. law brought to bear?

[gardenmom5]

and... I'm out of likes again. . . .

 

 

There was a very articulate former gymnast on the radio saying that in general but especially in USAG, girls and women are conditioned to question their recollections and conclusions about things. This leads to girls and women disbelieving their own realities and wondering if what they thought happened actually happened. It’s that much harder to report if you don’t know for sure what you are reporting.

What she said rang true for me as a survivor. Even now, I have times where I *almost* convince myself that what most assuredly happened to me repeatedly didn’t really happen. I think this is a function of self protection but it’s also a very effective means by which our culture aids the cycle of child sexual assault. My rapist is dead. His son and more than one grandson are both on the registry in the city where I lived when I was raped. Incidentally,
I recently learned through ancestry DNA testing that I am not actually related to them and that was a big relief. My batshit crazy grandmother had told my mother that this man was her father so until quite recently, I thought the man who raped me was my biological grandfather. My mother died thinking that as a direct consequence of her trying to get to know her biological father, her daughter was raped. I wish I could have relieved her of that burden and the ick factor of thinking you are genetically linked with that man.

The gymnast said that under no circumstances would she allow her kids to get into gymnastics or recommend that other parents do. I think USAG needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt from the bottom up. All the current leadership should go and I’m sure the same is the case with the USOC.

 

the gaslighting/mindgames...you do start to believe them when they say the sky is green, the sky is green and you don't trust your own eyes that the sky is really blue.  (or here in seattle . . gray.)  because if you agree with them, they're happy and leave you alone.  if you disagree - they keep harping until you agree with them or shut up.

 

I still have too many times I look-at/think-about something and *question* what I am seeing.   is it rational? or the continued screwed up perspective?

 

2dd did gymnastics- never rated, i just wanted her to have fun.  we never talked a lot about what went on in her gym - but I had a lot of comments from her about how much she appreciated me just allowing her to have fun.

 

I recall how shocked I was when 1ds was doing soccer - he was FOUR.  one of the other kids, the little boy's dad was constantly running along side him on the sidelines yelling at him to go faster, be more aware, go after the ball harder, etc.   he's FOUR!!!  for pete's sake!

 

even parents need to do some attitude adjustments.   to me - kids sports was about having fun - not national competition.

2dd's HS X-cntry coach went to university of michigan - and ran in the olympics. he was a great coach - but he wasn't pushing so hard the kids would kill themselves to achieve.

she also did ncaa crew - she quit.  the expectation she spend saturday nights with the rest of the team - when they were partying and getting drunk, and more time on the sport than her academics, it wasn't worth it to her.   her crew coach (a woman) was *really* mad at her.

my message to my kids was - have fun, learn a skill, for me, there's a limit

 

 

 

I don't know where I'm going with that exactly, except that kind of brainwashing seems to be a common theme, and as my daughter grows I'm going to make sure to have a few conversations with her about what lucky really means. And if someone spends a lot of time trying to convince you that you're lucky to work for them, that you need to proceed cautiously.

 

gaslighting - even today, I wonder if I'm seeing things as they really are, or with the warped and distorted view my grandmother instilled in me.

and the witch has been dead for 24 years.

 

Yes, perhaps it's possible that the impulse to protect the "tribe" at all costs could be redirected at getting to the bottom of any claims of abuse so that they don't come back and take the whole thing down. Even if the motive remained protecting the tribe,  if the action taken was consistent with protecting people from abuse, that's a win. We want the protection of people to line up with the protection of institutions then there is no conflict of interest except for the abuser. 

 

Colleges now have more than just Penn State to think about. It remains to be seen what will fall at MSU because of this. What will the financial fallout be for those who knew and didn't protect? For the school? 

 

There has been a reckoning in political circles, newsrooms, and Hollywood. Maybe other institutions are next. 

 

needs to be a lot.   those who knew/suspected and covered up - should first lose their job AND THEIR PENSIONS (and any other perk), then charges filed where applicable.

those in charge need to feel pain, so the institution will get the message - their pockets will hurt if they enable this kind of criminal behavior.  there will be no prestige - just scandal.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

It would require convincing men they are being cheated of something they should have.

 

(Yeah, I retyped that sentence three times, trying to get it to make sense.)

((Yeah, #notallmen))

Do you maybe mean, "It would required convincing men that they are not being cheated of something to which they are entitled."?

[Lostinabook]

There are parents out there who are verbally abusive, not only to their kids, but also to the other participants. Parents are permitted to watch group lessons in my kids' sport (at least in my area), but there have been times when the owner of a facility has had to escort a parent out because he was verbally abusing the other participants during a group lesson. There are some crazy intense parents out there. I know of one extreme case when the governing board banned a parent from being on the premises for 6 months because he had to be restrained from physically assaulting his 10 year old son's opponent.

 

So then have restrictive parent behavior policies and enforce those even up to banning those specific parents, or do like sk8ermaiden said above & have 2 way mirrors or closed circuit tvs. Banning all the parents because some parents are dreadful is not ok.

 

[Rosie_0801]

Do you maybe mean, "It would required convincing men that they are not being cheated of something to which they are entitled."?

 

No. I mean the opposite.

[Sk8ermaiden]

 

So then have restrictive parent behavior policies and enforce those even up to banning those specific parents, or do like sk8ermaiden said above & have 2 way mirrors or closed circuit tvs. Banning all the parents because some parents are dreadful is not ok.

 

 

 

Yes, both gyms we attended had open team viewing. I have seen coaches at both tell parents to leave for continued coaching from the sidelines. it's not too hard to enforce good policies, as long as you're consistent from the start. 

[Lostinabook]

The idea that their lives don't really matter, only money does.

 

 

Yep. And it becomes even more obvious when you realize that the first reactions to hearing these accusations were suggesting that the women were "ambulance chasers" or "making up a story to get money." Apparently they only see the world through the lens of their own greed?

[Garga]

No. I mean the opposite.

 

What should they be convinced they are being cheated of and need to have?

 

 

ETA: Forgot to add the word “cheatedâ€

Edited January 29, 2018 by Garga

[LMD]

Do you maybe mean, "It would required convincing men that they are not being cheated of something to which they are entitled."?

I think she meant, if you want men to change their behaviour, convince them they're missing out on an entitlement - then they'll fight for the change themselves!

[gardenmom5]

Yep. And it becomes even more obvious when you realize that the first reactions to hearing these accusations were suggesting that the women were "ambulance chasers" or "making up a story to get money." Apparently they only see the world through the lens of their own greed?

 

which is why the best punishments will hurt their pockets - and their egos.  (loss of prestige, loss of personal credibility.)

 

there needs to be teeth in any mandatory reporter law - or they're worthless.

 

[Rosie_0801]

What should they be convinced they are being of and need to have?

 

If I knew how to sell that, I'd have bottled it and sold you some. :lol:

 

I don't know. I don't know how to think that far yet.

 

 

 

I think she meant, if you want men to change their behaviour, convince them they're missing out on an entitlement - then they'll fight for the change themselves!

is as far as I've got.

[ktgrok]

And this is not limited to sports! When I was looking for a pediatric dentist, I was shocked at how many offices had a policy of not allowing parents to accompany children during treatment. How often have parents trusted some "expert", only for that person to abuse his/her position? 

 

yup. I called TEN before finding one that would let me go back! They don't prefer it, but will allow it. And have benches to sit on, in the same room, so you can watch but aren't up on top of other people's kids, etc. 

[Pam in CT]

first reactions to victims coming forward...

Yep. And it becomes even more obvious when you realize that the first reactions to hearing these accusations were suggesting that the women were "ambulance chasers" or "making up a story to get money." Apparently they only see the world through the lens of their own greed?

 

 

or "women scorned."

[sassenach]

The common denominator in all these spheres are a small group of people at the top, who can make or break the people they oversee. Religion adds the eternal damnation factor. I do think that in almost all these places where abuse is allowed to go on and on, the "lucky" thing is rampant. I hear it a lot. In the ATI religion/cult, when it finally came out that Gothard was sexually harassing (abusing? I can't remember) young girls, they had all been told how lucky they were to be able to work under such a wonderful man. So lucky to be here. 

 

I don't know where I'm going with that exactly, except that kind of brainwashing seems to be a common theme, and as my daughter grows I'm going to make sure to have a few conversations with her about what lucky really means. And if someone spends a lot of time trying to convince you that you're lucky to work for them, that you need to proceed cautiously. 

 

I do think USAG needs to go completely. The culture that allowed this to go on for so long (even if they didn't know) pervaded every aspect of the organization. Most likely they will do everything the USOC says, but the lawsuits will bankrupt them. We (the gym moms) will have to keep a close eye on what springs up in their stead.

 

I think the idea that they don't need to exist anymore is especially strong because they victimized persons here were children, whereas most of the other examples given are the realms of adults, who theoretically can just leave if they don't like it. (Even though we know, in practice, how rape culture can make that easier said than done.)

And for a child (and family, quite frankly) who has invested all of their hopes and dreams into a sport, the thought of becoming undesirable to the powers that be feels a whole lot like eternal damnation.

[ktgrok]

Oh and for the record, gyms that have this policy claim it is basically to prevent crazy gym moms ("Why did Susie get 5 turns and Jane only 4!?") and distractions. (My child seriously will look at me every time she does beam. I have to physically leave the room. I hide at meets. So I get it.) But if you're that worried put in two way mirrors or closed circuit TVs and make a stricter parent behavior policy. Restricting parent access is not the answer.

 

Yes, my daughter did dance for a while and they had two way mirrors so parents could watch but kids couldn't see the parents. 

[solascriptura]

In any case, I wanted to thank all of you for giving me a lot of food for thought.  Deeply ingrained societal ills are not something that I discuss with most of the people I know.  I try to bring it up and most just want to bury their heads in the sand.  Who wants to talk about the physical and sexual abuse of little girls?  It's such a painful subject and I can't even begin to imagine how excruciating it must be to talk about if it did happen to you or a loved one in the past.  

[swimmermom3]

Oh and for the record, gyms that have this policy claim it is basically to prevent crazy gym moms ("Why did Susie get 5 turns and Jane only 4!?") and distractions. (My child seriously will look at me every time she does beam. I have to physically leave the room. I hide at meets. So I get it.) But if you're that worried put in two way mirrors or closed circuit TVs and make a stricter parent behavior policy. Restricting parent access is not the answer.

 

I really think as a parent you need to be able to observe firsthand how a coach works with their athletes. Listen to language that's used. How do the athletes talk to each other? What's the reputation around town. A team that has a reputation for turning our good athletes with bad attitudes is worth a close observation.

 

I don't mean to be freaking out any swim parents who have had nothing but positive experiences, but I do believe coaches like the one below are fairly prevalent in swimming. A club with a connection to a big name coach has a lot of pull with parents and  the board less likely to look closely at behavior.

 

Paul Bergen

 

What his ISHOF does not say, is this:

 

"Deena Deardurff Schmidt says that sexual abuse has long been rampant in swimming and that throughout the decades, officials have dismissed it as an accepted element of the sport. The 57-year-old knows the issue personally. She was 10 years old when Paul Bergen, 16 years her senior, began coaching her club team in Cincinnati. He would train her for four years through 1972, when she snagged gold in the 4-by-100 meter relay at the Munich Olympics."  Miami News Times

 

I love swimming and don't regret most of our experiences with USA Swimming. I even got up enough nerve to join Masters while barely being able to swim. Dh and I officiated for several year. That said, they have a problem, at least with some clubs. The swim coach as god idea has to go.

 

USA Swimming currently has 148 coaches on a lifetime ban, most for sexually predatory behavior. 73 of those coaches have only been added since 2013. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by swimmermom3

[Sk8ermaiden]

I think she meant, if you want men to change their behaviour, convince them they're missing out on an entitlement - then they'll fight for the change themselves!

 

Tie their bonuses to the number of female employees who, in an anonymous survey by an independent organization, report not being sexually harassed in the workplace in that calendar year. 

 

I'm thinking of those OSHA banners: "XX days since a reportable incident!"

 

Sad

[snowbeltmom]

So then have restrictive parent behavior policies and enforce those even up to banning those specific parents, or do like sk8ermaiden said above & have 2 way mirrors or closed circuit tvs. Banning all the parents because some parents are dreadful is not ok.

I completely agree. I was just trying to explain why those policies may have been implemented.

[fairfarmhand]

I have known of abuse that has happened in tennis, but in all of the situations I know about first-hand, the coach was traveling with the minors without parents.

 

I have been shocked at the number of parents who pay to have their teen-age daughter travel with their coach all over the country unsupervised. Obviously, most of the coaches can be trusted, I would never want to take that chance, though.

i don’t understand why a coach would agree to that kind of an arrangement. Even if nothing happened all someone has to do is start a rumor and your coaching career could be toasted.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spy Car]

Bill, many on this thread have agreed with your original statement. Others haven't. It is unlikely at this point that continuing to promulgate the same point, is going to change any more minds. That doesn't negate the seriousness of the point you made.

 

I have always enjoyed my discussions with you and would appreciate hearing what your thoughts are on how we can change the culture. I will assume that one of your first suggestions is that rape should never be acceptable under any circumstances.  Many of us agree with that premise and several of those that agree have been rape survivors. I mentioned that my son brought up that making prison rape jokes is part of promoting rape culture.

 

What can we do in the area of sports? I know you played football. Is Will Jr. playing football?  

 

I will go see if I can find the support for the following info, but I thought I saw somewhere that the majority of sexual assaults on campus are linked to sports teams?  Do you think the culture in some sports is part of the problem? If so, what do you think can be done about it?  When the sports programs involve minors, what can we do to protect them? I am thinking about football coaches who let young players continue to play with severe injuries. 

 

My son is not playing football. I consciously steering him towards other sports. First lacrosse (which we both loved and where I've spent the past 5 years as a coach) and now--because the high school he plans to attend in the fall has no lacrosse team--he switched to water polo last May.

 

He and I are loving that sport too. Quite a switch for a kid who was never an aquatic athlete. But I've been proud of his efforts and his accomplishments in the transition.

 

While I loved playing football (passionately), I must take the concussion risks seriously as a parent and I was mindful not to project my passion on to my son. He actually felt I wasn't fully fair in not having him play football, when I did.

 

Lacrosse and water polo have provided good tough physical sports that attract him, as they attracted me. With less risk of brain injury.

 

As for protecting players, it was my main mission as a coach to prevent head injuries. I was an advocate at the league level of our youth conference for better enforcement of rules that would prevent such incidents with just the sort of passion you might expect from me.

 

Injuries are a risk in even well-coached sport. But there are bad methods that dramatically increase the risks. I let my players know the one thing I would not abide was initiating hits that could cause another player (or themselves) a head injury. And in 5 years, we had none.

 

Among coaches that I'm exposed to there is a far greater awareness of not putting an injured player back in games vs the "you gotta play with those little hurts" mentality that prevailed when I was a kid. Heck, I was as gun-ho as any coach and played through some injuries myself. Probably not wise.

 

I'm not sure about the correlation between on-campus assaults and sports teams.

 

Sports culture can cut both ways. Quality coaches (people of high integrity) can be profoundly important role models for young men and women. They have a powerful influence. Sadly, that power is very destructive when coaches are of bad character. We've seen examples of both. My advice to a parent would be to make sure any team or coach they entrust their child to is worthy of trust and of noble character.

 

It is a powerful role.

 

You are correct in your assumptions on rape. Never acceptable in any circumstance. Not ever. 

 

Bill

Edited January 29, 2018 by Spy Car

[fairfarmhand]

I have known of abuse that has happened in tennis, but in all of the situations I know about first-hand, the coach was traveling with the minors without parents.

 

I have been shocked at the number of parents who pay to have their teen-age daughter travel with their coach all over the country unsupervised. Obviously, most of the coaches can be trusted, I would never want to take that chance, though.

dp

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 29, 2018 by fairfarmhand

[solascriptura]

i don’t understand why a coach would agree to that kind of an arrangement. Even if nothing happened all someone has to do is start a rumor and your coaching career could be toasted.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I suspect that if they're at a certain level they begin to feel untouchable.  People will do whatever is told is best for your child to get them to that level you want.  

 

The #METOO movement reflects this entirely.  All of these powerful men felt absolutely untouchable.  Can you imagine what would compel some of these men to do what they did? Did they actually think that all of those women liked all of those sexual overtures or worse?  Some of those men seem genuinely perplexed when they found out that hey, those women didn't actually want to see them naked or forced to perform unmentionable things.    

[Carol in Cal.]

I suspect that if they're at a certain level they begin to feel untouchable.  People will do whatever is told is best for your child to get them to that level you want.  

 

The #METOO movement reflects this entirely.  All of these powerful men felt absolutely untouchable.  Can you imagine what would compel some of these men to do what they did? Did they actually think that all of those women liked all of those sexual overtures or worse?  Some of those men seem genuinely perplexed when they found out that hey, those women didn't actually want to see them naked or forced to perform unmentionable things.    

Because, you know, the women are so irrelevant.  And all.

[LucyStoner]

I haven't done other sports nor do I have kids who have done other sports for more than a rec season, but to me, gymnastics culture, including the behavior of parents, seems quite twisted. Even for not-yet-elite gymnasts, who are maybe 10-12 years old, they allow behavior from coaches that I can 100% guarantee I'd never allow.

 

It's behavior that would get a classroom teacher fired. It's behavior that would have your neighbor wondering if she should call CPS if she saw you doing it 3-4x a week. And yet parents just...allow it.

 

I’ve seen overtly abusive classroom teachers keep their job and be defended by the principal. Yes, plural. Only one, who was sexually harassing some of his students, was eventually fired. It took years AND my high school community divided, with many defending the charming popular teacher and attacking the shy, awkward girl whose family finally pressed hard enough for the district to do something. They were a family of financial means and were able to hire lawyers from a top firm. The evidence was solid. She wasn’t the first, or because of how slow the district was, the last he had harassed. Most families can’t plunk down a retainer for their own lawyer in situations like this. I had tussled with this teacher myself but because of my childhood by the time I was in high school I was pretty much in take no shit from anyone mode. He backed off of me. Had he not, I would have had significantly less of an opportunity to go after him and his job. Abusers seek those they have power over. While most teachers are not abusers, it is a career that has obvious attractions for those looking to abuse children or teens. As I have shared before, my husband had a college roommate who was studying to be a middle school teacher. Idiot had my husband fix his computer. My husband had to report him for porn featuring tween girls.

 

This is a culturewide issue.

[LMD]

i don’t understand why a coach would agree to that kind of an arrangement. Even if nothing happened all someone has to do is start a rumor and your coaching career could be toasted.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quite frankly, I think fear of false reports is about the only power we have to level the playing field.

Eta- why do you think it gets dragged out in every.single.discussion on sexual assault?

 

If men and people in positions of power (still mostly men) have to change their behaviour, nervously watch their drinks, who they associate with, have open door meetings and watch where they go late at night, well, welcome to equality!

 

To be clear - I don't want to see any innocent person wrongly punished, I don't want anyone to lie.

Edited January 29, 2018 by LMD

[Corraleno]

He also laughed when asked if the NCAA would investigate because "This isn't Penn State"--iow this doesn't involve football so why would they care? If these are the people in charge than there's no way anything can change.

They don't even care when it does involve football or basketball. In 2010 the NCAA was asked to investigate MSU for covering up 37 sexual assaults reportedly committed by athletes, just in the previous two years, NONE of whom had been disciplined. 

 

NCAA never investigated. Coincidentally, MSU President Lou Anna Simon was a member of the NCAA Division 1 Board of Governors at the time. She was even Chairman of the Executive Committee from 2012-2014.

 

The NCAA is worthless as long as the people running it are the very same people who benefit by covering up assault, abuse, and corruption.  They only get involved if the abuse is so blatant that criminal convictions and public outcry force them to act "concerned."

 

If we're gonna burn some of these organizations to the ground and rebuild from scratch, let's start with the NCAA.

[swimmermom3]

My son is not playing football. I consciously steering him towards other sports. First lacrosse (which we both loved and where I've spent the past 5 years as a coach) and now--because the high school he plans to attend in the fall has no lacrosse team--he switched to water polo last May.

 

He and I are loving that sport too. Quite a switch for a kid who was never an aquatic athlete. But I've been proud of his efforts and his accomplishments in the transition.

 

While I loved playing football (passionately), I must take the concussion risks seriously as a parent and I was mindful not to project my passion on to my son. He actually felt I wasn't fully fair in not having him play football, when I did.

 

Lacrosse and water polo have provided good tough physical sports that attract him, as they attracted me. With less risk of brain injury.

 

As for protecting players, it was my main mission as a coach to prevent head injuries. I was an advocate at the league level of our youth conference for better enforcement of rules that would prevent such incidents with just the sort of passion you might expect from me.

 

Injuries are a risk in even well-coached sport. But there are bad methods that dramatically increase the risks. I let my players know the one thing I would not abide was initiating hits that could cause another player (or themselves) a head injury. And in 5 years, we had none.

 

Among coaches that I'm exposed to there is a far greater awareness of not putting an injured player back in games vs the "you gotta play with those little hurts" mentality that prevailed when I was a kid. Heck, I was as gun-ho as any coach and played through some injuries myself. Probably not wise.

 

I'm not sure about the correlation between on-campus assaults and sports teams.

 

Sports culture can cut both ways. Quality coaches (people of high integrity) can be profoundly important role models for young men and women. They have a powerful influence. Sadly, that power is very destructive when coaches are of bad character. We've seen examples of both. My advice to a parent would be to make sure any team or coach they entrust their child to is worthy of trust and of noble character.

 

It is a powerful role.

 

You are correct in your assumptions on rape. Never acceptable in any circumstance. Not ever. 

 

Bill

 

Bill, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.I appreciate it. I do have a few more, but will reserve them for tomorrow after I have finished my homework. I am glad your son enjoys water polo. My oldest son played in high school after a couple of years of club swimming. He enjoyed it so much more than swimming.

[swimmermom3]

And for a child (and family, quite frankly) who has invested all of their hopes and dreams into a sport, the thought of becoming undesirable to the powers that be feels a whole lot like eternal damnation.

 

Which is why "shunning" is one of the most despicable coaching techniques.

 

At the international meet we hosted, one of the Canadian swimmers staying with us made a mistake in a race. When I saw her at lunch, her coach was not talking to her. All four of "our girls" said this was standard procedure.  Later, the same swimmer set a national record in her event. The coach was still shunning her at the end of the meet. She was 15. I just wanted to go up and slap that man silly.

 

Ds once missed a race at a championship meet. I waited for the coaching explosion. When I saw the coach later, he said he didn't need to say anything to Sailor Dude. Coach knew it had never happened before and would never happen again. End of the situation. 20 minutes afterwards, he was advising him on the next race. He was a good coach and role model. Unlike the above referenced coach with the Olympic creds who would bellow across the pool at 11 yos, "Are you stupid?"

[Corraleno]

"Deena Deardurff Schmidt says that sexual abuse has long been rampant in swimming and that throughout the decades, officials have dismissed it as an accepted element of the sport. The 57-year-old knows the issue personally. She was 10 years old when Paul Bergen, 16 years her senior, began coaching her club team in Cincinnati. He would train her for four years through 1972, when she snagged gold in the 4-by-100 meter relay at the Munich Olympics."  Miami News Times

Wow, that article was painful to read. The extent of the abuse, and the lengths people will go to to cover it up — mostly to protect financial interests at the expense of children — is utterly horrifying.  :crying:

[Spy Car]

Bill, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.I appreciate it. I do have a few more, but will reserve them for tomorrow after I have finished my homework. I am glad your son enjoys water polo. My oldest son played in high school after a couple of years of club swimming. He enjoyed it so much more than swimming.

 

My pleasure.

 

William has been swimming on swim teams between the water polo sessions. Currently in he's in water polo conditioning and about to start the WP Spring season.

 

He got to do an "extended tryout" in the Fall due to the generosity of the coach of the "elite (private) team" at our city pool (his times were not yet fast enough to make the redline for this elite team, but he had the stamina to keep up with the two hour practices) and then he went over to the rec. level swim team.

 

He swims mostly to get in shape for water polo, to be honest.

 

Like me, he is a "team sport" kind of kid, I do, however, think the body chiseling aspect of swim is not lost on him. He is still pre-growth spurt and very lean. But dang if he's not getting ripped.

 

Until tomorrow.

 

Bill

[Sneezyone]

It really does pull you in. I compare it to a cult mentality. And if you have a child talented enough to be asked to the ranch...well...and their coach does go too of course...and all the top gymnasts do it so it's probably fine...

It absolutely does/did and definitely created a chosen one vs plebe dynamic in DDs old gym that wasn’t always reflected in the meet standings either. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how those TOPs parents must be feeling now.

[Sk8ermaiden]

It absolutely does/did and definitely created a chosen one vs plebe dynamic in DDs old gym that wasn’t always reflected in the meet standings either. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how those TOPs parents must be feeling now.

I guarantee you the moms at our old gym will still be sending any and all TOPs kids to the ranch. Hopefully we won't see any more of this "no parents" nonsense and those kids can be safe.

[The Governess]

I guarantee you the moms at our old gym will still be sending any and all TOPs kids to the ranch. Hopefully we won't see any more of this "no parents" nonsense and those kids can be safe.

The ranch has already been closed. Future camps will be held at a TBD facility. I bet the rules will be very different...

[Sk8ermaiden]

Well already been closed except not really, but yes. Valeri volunteered WOGA, which I think is hilarious. Ranch take two! 

I suspect it will be at one of the permanent summer camps, flipfest or woodward or something. We'll see. They had it at a college when Harvey shut down Texas. I sure hope they change things. I think it would be very difficult to keep parents away. Especially at the younger ages.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Sk8ermaiden

[Sneezyone]

The ranch has already been closed. Future camps will be held at a TBD facility. I bet the rules will be very different...

 

One can only hope. I felt like parents (and kids) got so caught up in the exclusivity of it that they lost sight of the oddity of the whole thing. Sending your 9-11yo halfway across the world to the middle of nowhere (with a trusted coach, yes) but without parents...it was/is a system ripe for abuse.

 

The girls in DDs gym who did regular JO vs. TOPS had a much healthier dynamic, more tortoise and less hare. The gym had solid coaching that could prep a kid for elite but their stated goal was to turn out solid collegiate gymnasts and it showed in the number of very successful local kids they trained from L3-10 and the small number of drop offs as kids moved through the pipeline. We were fortunate, I guess, never to get caught up in the race to the podium gyms.

 

Parents were always welcome and cameras were everywhere. I would never put up with anything less.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

I’ve seen overtly abusive classroom teachers keep their job and be defended by the principal. Yes, plural. Only one, who was sexually harassing some of his students, was eventually fired. It took years AND my high school community divided, with many defending the charming popular teacher and attacking the shy, awkward girl whose family finally pressed hard enough for the district to do something. They were a family of financial means and were able to hire lawyers from a top firm. The evidence was solid. She wasn’t the first, or because of how slow the district was, the last he had harassed. Most families can’t plunk down a retainer for their own lawyer in situations like this. I had tussled with this teacher myself but because of my childhood by the time I was in high school I was pretty much in take no shit from anyone mode. He backed off of me. Had he not, I would have had significantly less of an opportunity to go after him and his job. Abusers seek those they have power over. While most teachers are not abusers, it is a career that has obvious attractions for those looking to abuse children or teens. As I have shared before, my husband had a college roommate who was studying to be a middle school teacher. Idiot had my husband fix his computer. My husband had to report him for porn featuring tween girls.

 

This is a culturewide issue.

 

as does coaching.  as does anything that involves working with children.

[Caroline]

I played high level softball in softball mecca with a ton of "elite" players. The only time i ever heard of anything "untoward" was with one high school assistant coach. Coaches are hardly ever alone with players in the sport, and there are always tons of females around. Coaches who are known to be "jerks" or just mean, have reputations and cause many very good players to choose different teams.

Just because you haven’t heard of it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. I teach at an elite softball high school. Our girls play D1 and are on the national team. You are kidding yourself if you think they are never alone with coaches. Private pitching lessons. Private hitting lessons. Private catching lessons.

[Bluegoat]

There was a very articulate former gymnast on the radio saying that in general but especially in USAG, girls and women are conditioned to question their recollections and conclusions about things. This leads to girls and women disbelieving their own realities and wondering if what they thought happened actually happened. It’s that much harder to report if you don’t know for sure what you are reporting.

 

What she said rang true for me as a survivor. Even now, I have times where I *almost* convince myself that what most assuredly happened to me repeatedly didn’t really happen. I think this is a function of self protection but it’s also a very effective means by which our culture aids the cycle of child sexual assault. My rapist is dead. His son and more than one grandson are both on the registry in the city where I lived when I was raped. Incidentally,

I recently learned through ancestry DNA testing that I am not actually related to them and that was a big relief. My batshit crazy grandmother had told my mother that this man was her father so until quite recently, I thought the man who raped me was my biological grandfather. My mother died thinking that as a direct consequence of her trying to get to know her biological father, her daughter was raped. I wish I could have relieved her of that burden and the ick factor of thinking you are genetically linked with that man.

 

The gymnast said that under no circumstances would she allow her kids to get into gymnastics or recommend that other parents do. I think USAG needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt from the bottom up. All the current leadership should go and I’m sure the same is the case with the USOC.

 

I kind of wonder though whether the larger environment of elite sports would make that possible in a really meaningful way.  The goal for these groups seems to be the Olympics, and funding to get there.  The high visibility sports in the Olympics are all in a mess IMO and it's intrinsic to the way the athletes train and are funded to do so - it's really a far cry from the kinds of amateurs who were mostly the ones competing in the first years on the modern Olympics.  

[Bluegoat]

Sports, Hollywood, religious organizations, corporations, politics...everything is touched by this, though. Is it just select groups like gymnastics or figure skating that need to be rebuilt from the bottom up? Do you you just pick out the worst offenders and say, burn it down and rebuild?

 

Institutions in general are subject to corruption, and evil individuals using them for personal advantage.  The same things that make them useful are what make them appealing to these people.  

 

To say, have no more institutions is not, IMO, a doable approach.  There are things you can do to make them responsive when something is going wrong in a new way, but there will always be a new way I suspect.

 

I do think that there are some where it is worse though, or maybe are especially problematic in particular areas, and while maybe they should be destroyed, I think it's really important to think about why those ones in particular have such problems.  I think when we look closely at elite sports, there are basic problems with some of it's goals.  Hollywood has similar serious flaws as they operate now that IMO make them very prone to certain kinds of abuses.   Politics in some countries as well. In all cases I don't see starting a new organization as being effective unless it somehow modifies those elements.

[Bluegoat]

Oh and for the record, gyms that have this policy claim it is basically to prevent crazy gym moms ("Why did Susie get 5 turns and Jane only 4!?") and distractions. (My child seriously will look at me every time she does beam. I have to physically leave the room. I hide at meets. So I get it.) But if you're that worried put in two way mirrors or closed circuit TVs and make a stricter parent behavior policy. Restricting parent access is not the answer.

 

This is certainly something I've seen in some team sports like soccer and hockey.  The parents are often really really horrible, and honestly seem more risky people to me than the coaches.  I know coaches that just want to make a fun and healthy activity for the kids but the parents are so pushy it doesn't happen.

 

I've also found working with smaller kids myself that parents in the room often make the kids much harder to manage.

 

I'm actually not sure that parents in the room is always the best way to go in terms of solving this kind of problem.  It doesn't generally seem to be an issue with school teachers for example, that they normally don't have a bunch of parents around, and I've not heard that as a solution for when there are problems with teachers.

 

It seems to me that in a generally healthy environment, there should be other options for making as safe an environment as we need.  To me, the need to have a parent in some sports to make sure the coach isn't being a bully etc is at least in part to problems in how people understand the purpose of kids sports.

[snowbeltmom]

This is certainly something I've seen in some team sports like soccer and hockey.  The parents are often really really horrible, and honestly seem more risky people to me than the coaches.  I know coaches that just want to make a fun and healthy activity for the kids but the parents are so pushy it doesn't happen.

 

I've also found working with smaller kids myself that parents in the room often make the kids much harder to manage.

 

I'm actually not sure that parents in the room is always the best way to go in terms of solving this kind of problem.  It doesn't generally seem to be an issue with school teachers for example, that they normally don't have a bunch of parents around, and I've not heard that as a solution for when there are problems with teachers.

 

It seems to me that in a generally healthy environment, there should be other options for making as safe an environment as we need.  To me, the need to have a parent in some sports to make sure the coach isn't being a bully etc is at least in part to problems in how people understand the purpose of kids sports.

I agree that the parents can be awful. My daughter witnessed a mother throwing a chair at her daughter when her daughter lost - the child was 8. There is a subset of parents who actually seek out the bully coach because these parents believe having their elementary aged kid subjected to profanity filled tirades by his coach builds character and toughness.

I don't know what the answers are, but I do think parents should be permitted to see what is going on, but maybe cameras can serve that purpose in some cases.

Edited January 29, 2018 by snowbeltmom

[shawthorne44]

Wow, a chair?    That is messed up.   

[snowbeltmom]

Wow, a chair?    That is messed up.

Most parents don't behave this way. But I personally know a number of parent/child relationships that have been destroyed because the parents were verbally abusive and simply out of their minds watching their kids compete.

[Bluegoat]

Perhaps a policy like the Boy Scouts have needs to be implemented in these sports: two-deep leadership. Meaning, a child goes nowhere without TWO background-checked-and-trained-in-youth-protection adults present.

 

Not foolproof, but it does add a layer of protection.

 

ETA: It's maddening that this is even a thing. If perps would just STOP then we could be free of this type of thinking/action.

 

I kind of think this is a way of thinking that is not always fruitful.

 

We can think about why we might create certain types of people as a culture.

 

But about 1% of the population, across cultures and even times, are psychopaths.  Maybe 10% of people in the US have BPD or NPD.  Large numbers of people in prisons have these kinds of issues.

 

There will always be people who resist socialization and step outside of social norms.  

[Aura]

I have so many thoughts running through my head right now.

 

I've noticed that there is a section of people that insist on smoothing things over. In every organization, in addition to those with power issues, there's this other set of people that can't stand to allow people to face the consequences of their actions. It's like they can't believe anyone is really "that bad" and so the abuser mustn't be "that bad" so they make it their job to smooth things over and placate the abuser.

 

But what they're really doing is enabling that behavior and helping abuse to continue.

 

Does anyone else notice this? Is it because most organizations I'm involved in tend to have religious ties of some kind, so maybe there's some kind of "peace-keeping" mindset that pervades my area? (just guessing)

 

 

I'm also struggling with the concept of camps for young teens and below. I just really don't see the benefit for that age group, other than maybe convenience?  Wouldn't week of day-long activities be just as good to improve skills?

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

This is certainly something I've seen in some team sports like soccer and hockey.  The parents are often really really horrible, and honestly seem more risky people to me than the coaches.  I know coaches that just want to make a fun and healthy activity for the kids but the parents are so pushy it doesn't happen.

 

I've also found working with smaller kids myself that parents in the room often make the kids much harder to manage.

 

I'm actually not sure that parents in the room is always the best way to go in terms of solving this kind of problem.  It doesn't generally seem to be an issue with school teachers for example, that they normally don't have a bunch of parents around, and I've not heard that as a solution for when there are problems with teachers.

 

It seems to me that in a generally healthy environment, there should be other options for making as safe an environment as we need.  To me, the need to have a parent in some sports to make sure the coach isn't being a bully etc is at least in part to problems in how people understand the purpose of kids sports.

 

I think it is exactly the same issue with school teachers that it is with coaches. How many teachers behaving badly have been caught now that most teens carry cell phones? And how many times a year do we learn of a teacher who was sexually abusing a student? Now, having parents in the room isn't feasible. You can't build parent viewing into every classroom. What the solution there is, I don't know. (And none of the school boards do either; I have NEVER heard any proposed solution to that issue.) I think the idea is supposed to be that teachers are accountable to someone. And you can take it up the chain, all the way to the school board and the court, because there are legal protocalls schools have to abide by. They get federal funding....

 

But there also is a culture issue. What percentage of teachers do you think are abusive (counting all types, not just sexual)? How many coaches? Because I'd put coaches at 15-60% depending on which sport, while I don't think teachers are anywhere near that high. I have a real and vested interest in making sure my kid is in a healthy environment for this totally optional, but completely amazing thing she does. 

 

And most gyms don't have parents "in the room" where they're interfering with the kids' focus. Especially in gymnastics, they're usually apart, often on a second floor, with a view of the gym. Our new gym has closed circuit TVs for the rooms we can't see, which is nice too. As mentioned before, 2 way mirrors are an option too.