Larry Nassar

[Lang Syne Boardie]

:popcorn

 

IBTL!

[mamaraby]

Sports, Hollywood, religious organizations, corporations, politics...everything is touched by this, though. Is it just select groups like gymnastics or figure skating that need to be rebuilt from the bottom up? Do you you just pick out the worst offenders and say, burn it down and rebuild?

Well that’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it. It’s not just one organization or one sphere. And it’s not just a women’s issue. #metoo brought up men who had faced harrassment as well (like Terry Crews). I think starting in any of these separate spheres is always a good place to start, maybe also bu extending support to each other? With the idea that like all social change, progress is a) not linear and b) like a snowball rolling downhill.

[Guest]

Are you OK with judges threatening those they are sentencing with threats of rape and speaking of giving them death warrants, Susan?

 

Is this the way a civilized legal system operates? You've studied civilizations, history, and justice.

 

Should such a judge be cheered?

 

Bill

Just rude.

[snowbeltmom]

Good grief. I should not have clicked on the option to view.

Edited January 29, 2018 by snowbeltmom

[Rosie_0801]

Are you OK with judges threatening those they are sentencing with threats of rape and speaking of giving them death warrants, Susan?

 

Is this the way a civilized legal system operates? You've studied civilizations, history, and justice.

 

Should such a judge be cheered?

 

Bill

 

Ya know, if Susan wanted to discuss this with you, she would have. She told you to stop, so stop.

 

 

 

Have the rest of you read enough Enid Blyton school stories to know the phrase "send to Coventry?"

[ktgrok]

:popcorn

 

IBTL!

 

Can I have some? With butter and salt?

 

Methinks we are about to see how a strong, confident woman handles things. 

[snowbeltmom]

Well that’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it. It’s not just one organization or one sphere. And it’s not just a women’s issue. #metoo brought up men who had faced harrassment as well (like Terry Crews). I think starting in any of these separate spheres is always a good place to start, maybe also bu extending support to each other? With the idea that like all social change, progress is a) not linear and b) like a snowball rolling downhill.

I agree. I think this is going to have a snowball effect throughout the sports world. I would not be surprised to see more revelations in the sports world, similar to what we saw in Hollywood and journalism.

[Catwoman]

Just rude.

And incredibly childish and offensive.

 

How about a little respect for Susan and our moderators?

 

This behavior is disgusting.

[mamaraby]

Have the rest of you read enough Enid Blyton school stories to know the phrase "send to Coventry?"

Wise as usual (and I had to Google it). It’s vastly preferrable to the popcorn comments so please, please let’s go this route. I know earlier Pam in CT had had an interesting language link that I’m hoing she’ll share here, but that only happens if the thread stays open.

[Catwoman]

Ya know, if Susan wanted to discuss this with you, she would have. She told you to stop, so stop.

 

 

 

Have the rest of you read enough Enid Blyton school stories to know the phrase "send to Coventry?"

Thanks, Rosie.

 

I’m so sorry that you and the other moderators are stuck dealing with this.

[eternalsummer]

Personally I'm generally happy to engage on the merits until the issue is hashed out (or the other side gives up, or I do), as long as there are no personal attacks.  I also generally loathe censorship separate of spam, completely off-topic posts, or illegal content (and I'm mostly okay with moderation of ad hom in a non-personal thread, although that can get murky sometimes).  So I can see where Bill is coming from in that way.

 

However, and this is a big however, that is not how these forums are run.  Here, sustained prosecution of a case, however it stands on the merits, is generally discouraged; moderation is often personal and moderation of "tone" is part of the package.

 

ETA: I'm not saying that this method of moderation makes these forums bad, just that it makes them, well, moderated.  At some point, to continue posting here, you have to accept the nature of the group (and to some extent the emotional judgment of the group).

 

It seems to me like it relates in a way to Bluegoat's other thread about empathy in arguments, and how hard it can be to have a discussion between people who want to argue logic and people who want to argue emotion and the space between.

Edited January 29, 2018 by eternalsummer

[Sk8ermaiden]

The common denominator in all these spheres are a small group of people at the top, who can make or break the people they oversee. Religion adds the eternal damnation factor. I do think that in almost all these places where abuse is allowed to go on and on, the "lucky" thing is rampant. I hear it a lot. In the ATI religion/cult, when it finally came out that Gothard was sexually harassing (abusing? I can't remember) young girls, they had all been told how lucky they were to be able to work under such a wonderful man. So lucky to be here. 

 

I don't know where I'm going with that exactly, except that kind of brainwashing seems to be a common theme, and as my daughter grows I'm going to make sure to have a few conversations with her about what lucky really means. And if someone spends a lot of time trying to convince you that you're lucky to work for them, that you need to proceed cautiously. 

 

I do think USAG needs to go completely. The culture that allowed this to go on for so long (even if they didn't know) pervaded every aspect of the organization. Most likely they will do everything the USOC says, but the lawsuits will bankrupt them. We (the gym moms) will have to keep a close eye on what springs up in their stead.

 

I think the idea that they don't need to exist anymore is especially strong because they victimized persons here were children, whereas most of the other examples given are the realms of adults, who theoretically can just leave if they don't like it. (Even though we know, in practice, how rape culture can make that easier said than done.)

Edited January 29, 2018 by Sk8ermaiden

[LucyStoner]

Sports, Hollywood, religious organizations, corporations, politics...everything is touched by this, though. Is it just select groups like gymnastics or figure skating that need to be rebuilt from the bottom up? Do you you just pick out the worst offenders and say, burn it down and rebuild?

I’m of the mind we have to rebuild our culture around gender expectations and sex from the bottom up but I don’t claim to know how to do that. We live in a guilty land. It’s nothing new but it’s a relief to see it boiling over finally.

[swimmermom3]

Sports, Hollywood, religious organizations, corporations, politics...everything is touched by this, though. Is it just select groups like gymnastics or figure skating that need to be rebuilt from the bottom up? Do you you just pick out the worst offenders and say, burn it down and rebuild?

 

 

I think you are probably looking at not only a cultural but very human problem: those in power taking advantage of those with less power for personal gain.

 

That is an almost insurmountable problem if you look at it as a whole; however, if I do believe that if we tackle the problem one bad organization at a time and in our own lives and homes, we can make significant progress.

 

With regards to USA Gymnastics, given the Nasser case, I think it probably does need to be burned to the ground. I am speculating that with the success of the Nasser case, we will see more abuse there brought to light and the Karolyis will probably be in the middle of it. The rumors have been there forever.

 

Has anyone investigated yet, the question of if the men gymnasts were required to see only one doctor?  

 

Honestly, there are also several university football, basketball, and swimming programs that need to be burned to the ground. The only way in part to stop this is to make it hurt so badly financially and reputation-wise, that organizations want to keep a clean house. One of my teaching peers talked about going home for break after being in another country. His old high school was involved in a sexual abuse scandal involving the high school team. My colleague said that the culture was horrific when he was there 15 years ago and nearly all the same staff was there still at the time of scandal. Nearly all of the staff was fired. The football team ran roughshod over the whole school. Think Stuebenville, think Vanderbilt football.

 

WE need to address the sense of entitlement. We as women need also to look at our own sense of righteousness that we like to rain down on other women and sometimes, we do this to gain the accolades of men.

 

I got up this morning and was bummed to see that the thread was locked. Then, after reading the amazing responses written after I went to bed, I was even more bummed. I am grateful to SWB for reopening the thread. It's been incredibly educational.

[Rosie_0801]

I’m of the mind we have to rebuild our culture around gender expectations and sex from the bottom up but I don’t claim to know how to do that. We live in a guilty land. It’s nothing new but it’s a relief to see it boiling over finally.

 

It would require convincing men they are being cheated of something they should have.

 

(Yeah, I retyped that sentence three times, trying to get it to make sense.)

((Yeah, #notallmen))

[eternalsummer]

I haven't done other sports nor do I have kids who have done other sports for more than a rec season, but to me, gymnastics culture, including the behavior of parents, seems quite twisted.  Even for not-yet-elite gymnasts, who are maybe 10-12 years old, they allow behavior from coaches that I can 100% guarantee I'd never allow.

 

It's behavior that would get a classroom teacher fired.  It's behavior that would have your neighbor wondering if she should call CPS if she saw you doing it 3-4x a week.  And yet parents just...allow it.  

 

Plus, it is a physically damaging and dangerous sport at the top levels.

 

And yet, I love gymnastics.  I love the way it looks, and the way it felt to do, and the strength and flexibility and sense of control of body you get from it.  I just also know that I never ever want my daughters to get good enough to have to worry about demanding coaches.

 

 

Do you think the XCEL program (which didn't exist when I was in gymnastics 20 years ago, at least to my knowledge) helps with this for kids who are in it?  Our gym only does XCEL after the introductory levels, no JO.  

[Spy Car]

And incredibly childish and offensive.

 

How about a little respect for Susan and our moderators?

 

This behavior is disgusting.

 

It is disgusting to ask our host a question on a topic on which she has a high-level of expertise?

 

I don't think so.

 

I'd love to hear an informed opinion on the appropriateness of these words:

 

Our Constitution does not allow for cruel and unusual punishment.“If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls ― these young women in their childhood ― I would allow some or many people to do to him what he did to others.

 

And whether it is ever OK to signal support for the rape of murder of a convict by a judge.

 

Who better to weigh in on the question that SWB?

 

I ask as a sign of respect.

 

Bill

[Sk8ermaiden]

I’m of the mind we have to rebuild our culture around gender expectations and sex from the bottom up but I don’t claim to know how to do that. We live in a guilty land. It’s nothing new but it’s a relief to see it boiling over finally.

 

Agreed. Has anyone seen the SNL skit/song "Welcome to Hell"? It's not even that original or witty, but it's just so true it kind of makes you want to laugh/cry.

[Guest]

It is strange, to me, to have so much riding on people who are so young. I see it here with high school sports. There are grown men who have their days ruined because a teenage boy didn’t catch a ball like he should. I know ending youth sports isn’t possible but, idk, it seems crazy to me that we ask for so much from young athletes.

[Rosie_0801]

It is disgusting to ask our host a question on a topic on which she has a high-level of expertise?

 

I ask as a sign of respect.

 

Bill

 

If you were asking as a sign of respect, you'd have respected her request to stop repeating yourself here on this thread and taken it to pm.

[ErinE]

I haven't done other sports nor do I have kids who have done other sports for more than a rec season, but to me, gymnastics culture, including the behavior of parents, seems quite twisted.  Even for not-yet-elite gymnasts, who are maybe 10-12 years old, they allow behavior from coaches that I can 100% guarantee I'd never allow.

 

It's behavior that would get a classroom teacher fired.  It's behavior that would have your neighbor wondering if she should call CPS if she saw you doing it 3-4x a week.  And yet parents just...allow it.  

 

Plus, it is a physically damaging and dangerous sport at the top levels.

 

And yet, I love gymnastics.  I love the way it looks, and the way it felt to do, and the strength and flexibility and sense of control of body you get from it.  I just also know that I never ever want my daughters to get good enough to have to worry about demanding coaches.

 

 

Do you think the XCEL program (which didn't exist when I was in gymnastics 20 years ago, at least to my knowledge) helps with this for kids who are in it?  Our gym only does XCEL after the introductory levels, no JO.  

 

I'm struggling with same feelings. Three of my children love gymnastics, but we're at a franchise gym, not a hard-core competitive one.  I think they revel in the ability to learn new skills, competing with themselves as opposed to someone else. I've observed how the gym runs things. The entire space is open. The coaches are always nice to the children, even when they are firm. Will this gym ever have a top competitor? Likely not, especially since a child with drive and talent would likely move to a more grueling gym. But not everything has to be about the competition.

Edited January 29, 2018 by ErinE

[Laurie4b]

I think you are probably looking at not only a cultural but very human problem: those in power taking advantage of those with less power for personal gain.

 

....

The only way in part to stop this is to make it hurt so badly financially and reputation-wise, that organizations want to keep a clean house.

 

 

 

Yes, perhaps it's possible that the impulse to protect the "tribe" at all costs could be redirected at getting to the bottom of any claims of abuse so that they don't come back and take the whole thing down. Even if the motive remained protecting the tribe,  if the action taken was consistent with protecting people from abuse, that's a win. We want the protection of people to line up with the protection of institutions then there is no conflict of interest except for the abuser. 

 

Colleges now have more than just Penn State to think about. It remains to be seen what will fall at MSU because of this. What will the financial fallout be for those who knew and didn't protect? For the school? 

 

There has been a reckoning in political circles, newsrooms, and Hollywood. Maybe other institutions are next. 

[Catwoman]

If you were asking as a sign of respect, you'd have respected her request to stop repeating yourself here on this thread and taken it to pm.

Thank you for responding, Rosie, so I didn’t have to. :)

[maize]

I haven't done other sports nor do I have kids who have done other sports for more than a rec season, but to me, gymnastics culture, including the behavior of parents, seems quite twisted. Even for not-yet-elite gymnasts, who are maybe 10-12 years old, they allow behavior from coaches that I can 100% guarantee I'd never allow.

 

It's behavior that would get a classroom teacher fired. It's behavior that would have your neighbor wondering if she should call CPS if she saw you doing it 3-4x a week. And yet parents just...allow it.

 

Plus, it is a physically damaging and dangerous sport at the top levels.

 

And yet, I love gymnastics. I love the way it looks, and the way it felt to do, and the strength and flexibility and sense of control of body you get from it. I just also know that I never ever want my daughters to get good enough to have to worry about demanding coaches.

 

 

Do you think the XCEL program (which didn't exist when I was in gymnastics 20 years ago, at least to my knowledge) helps with this for kids who are in it? Our gym only does XCEL after the introductory levels, no JO.

I have had hopes that Xcel could provide a healthier alternative.

 

My guess is that a gym that only does Xcel will be fine--they've opted out of the elite dreams and madness.

[Lostinabook]

 

Honestly, there are also several university football, basketball, and swimming programs that need to be burned to the ground. The only way in part to stop this is to make it hurt so badly financially and reputation-wise, that organizations want to keep a clean house. One of my teaching peers talked about going home for break after being in another country. His old high school was involved in a sexual abuse scandal involving the high school team. My colleague said that the culture was horrific when he was there 15 years ago and nearly all the same staff was there still at the time of scandal. Nearly all of the staff was fired. The football team ran roughshod over the whole school. Think Stuebenville, think Vanderbilt football.

 

 

Including MSU's according to the ESPN report from the other day. I think the only way to hit these schools is financially--alumni and donors have got to STOP giving $ to universities until they are willing to actually care for their students because $ raised seem to be all that matters. The comments by the one MSU trustee (Ferguson?) were horrifying. He said they'd never get rid of Simon--look at the basketball arena she built, that those filing charges were "ambulance chasers", and that the board had more important things to discuss than "this Nassar thing." He also laughed when asked if the NCAA would investigate because "This isn't Penn State"--iow this doesn't involve football so why would they care? If these are the people in charge than there's no way anything can change. 

[eternalsummer]

I think ours only does Xcel because they don't really have the space or equipment or population for a JO team - they don't even have room to run a full vault (a very small gym in a small town) and they don't have a full sprung floor.  But boy, they are great at fundamentals, and they are kind.  They don't hire many teenagers to teach classes (one teenager helps with the PreK class, that's it), so they have 30-40 year old women teaching the classes, which has been great.  They're firm without being unkind or aggressive, but get better results than the teen-taught classes the kids have had previously (as intro classes).  

[Caroline]

My daughter plays tennis, but she is by no means Olympic bound. She may not even be high school tennis team good. She mostly has group lessons, but she has had a few private lessons. Her coach is a man. The vast majority of the time, her private lessons are at the public tennis facility with zillions of people around. However, once she had a lesson at our private courts. 90 minutes. So I went for a run around the neighborhood checking in about every ten to twenty minutes. It was just weird. I didn’t want to just sit there and watch. (Some tennis parents actually pick up balls through the lesson to get more lesson in. I am not that mom. If that makes me a bad tennis mom, so be it.) Anyway, I think the only way to protect her is to teach her to be vocal. And even that might not be good enough. I mean, I would believe her, but I’m not enough. How sad is that?

 

I do wonder if women’s tennis might be the next thing to fall. Or ice skating. Or soccer. Or softball. Or volleyball. Or all the above. And it makes me horribly sad to think that girls are considered expendable. The sport was more important than the individual girls. And I don’t even think it has to be high level for this to happen. Summer swim league, rec soccer...

[maize]

I think ours only does Xcel because they don't really have the space or equipment or population for a JO team - they don't even have room to run a full vault (a very small gym in a small town) and they don't have a full sprung floor. But boy, they are great at fundamentals, and they are kind. They don't hire many teenagers to teach classes (one teenager helps with the PreK class, that's it), so they have 30-40 year old women teaching the classes, which has been great. They're firm without being unkind or aggressive, but get better results than the teen-taught classes the kids have had previously (as intro classes).

I was happy when the boy's Xcel program was announced--was it just last year?

 

I'm not aware of any gyms in our area running one though

 

We've opted more for tumbling, though we're not even doing that right now. Limited time and resources and all. My kids would love to do more.

[DawnM]

Ya know, if Susan wanted to discuss this with you, she would have. She told you to stop, so stop.

 

 

 

Have the rest of you read enough Enid Blyton school stories to know the phrase "send to Coventry?"

 

My favorite author!  Yup, I sure do!

[ktgrok]

 

I do wonder if women’s tennis might be the next thing to fall. Or ice skating. Or soccer. Or softball. Or volleyball. Or all the above. And it makes me horribly sad to think that girls are considered expendable. The sport was more important than the individual girls. And I don’t even think it has to be high level for this to happen. Summer swim league, rec soccer...

 

I'm also curious about dance. That's another arena where there is room for punishing a dancer who doesn't toe the line (literally and figuratively), etc. And it's about bodies, pushing through pain, etc. 

[Jaybee]

This has been a thought-provoking thread. These last posts have set me thinking about one ds. My other kids have not really been interested in competitive sports beyond a season here or there. But this one ds is very coordinated. He has the natural build of a gymnast. He loves soccer. But we have not had the funds to develop either of them. Gymnastics is too expensive, and we limited soccer to rec league due to the time commitments as well as the money. I'm beginning to think that is not a bad thing. He can enjoy the sport, get good exercise, and develop skills and relationships, without the kind of unhealthy pressure both physically and emotionally. 

[maize]

I'm also curious about dance. That's another arena where there is room for punishing a dancer who doesn't toe the line (literally and figuratively), etc. And it's about bodies, pushing through pain, etc.

My DD was in an Irish dance studio for awhile where the top dancers were getting injured left and right--broken feet, sprained ankles, etc.

 

No hint of sexual misconduct but a teacher who cares so little for the dancers as to push them to that high an injury rate is really problematic.

[Catwoman]

I have to say that, although I know we are focusing on girls in this thread, I hope anyone who has been abused will come forward and demand justice — and that includes the young male athletes, as well, because I’m sure there are plenty of pervert coaches, trainers, and team doctors who are abusing them, too.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack... it was just something I have been thinking about lately, after all of the focus on this issue.

[LMD]

The common denominator in all these spheres are a small group of people at the top, who can make or break the people they oversee. Religion adds the eternal damnation factor. I do think that in almost all these places where abuse is allowed to go on and on, the "lucky" thing is rampant. I hear it a lot. In the ATI religion/cult, when it finally came out that Gothard was sexually harassing (abusing? I can't remember) young girls, they had all been told how lucky they were to be able to work under such a wonderful man. So lucky to be here.

 

I don't know where I'm going with that exactly, except that kind of brainwashing seems to be a common theme, and as my daughter grows I'm going to make sure to have a few conversations with her about what lucky really means. And if someone spends a lot of time trying to convince you that you're lucky to work for them, that you need to proceed cautiously.

 

I do think USAG needs to go completely. The culture that allowed this to go on for so long (even if they didn't know) pervaded every aspect of the organization. Most likely they will do everything the USOC says, but the lawsuits will bankrupt them. We (the gym moms) will have to keep a close eye on what springs up in their stead.

 

I think the idea that they don't need to exist anymore is especially strong because they victimized persons here were children, whereas most of the other examples given are the realms of adults, who theoretically can just leave if they don't like it. (Even though we know, in practice, how rape culture can make that easier said than done.)

My bold.

I don't want to be accused of gender slurs, but we all know what the common feature is of the majority of those at the top...

 

I don't know how to fix it. But Judge Aquilina allowing those 156 victims to speak, and imposing an adequate sentence, is a great first step!

Edited January 29, 2018 by LMD

[Sk8ermaiden]

I haven't done other sports nor do I have kids who have done other sports for more than a rec season, but to me, gymnastics culture, including the behavior of parents, seems quite twisted.  Even for not-yet-elite gymnasts, who are maybe 10-12 years old, they allow behavior from coaches that I can 100% guarantee I'd never allow.

 

It's behavior that would get a classroom teacher fired.  It's behavior that would have your neighbor wondering if she should call CPS if she saw you doing it 3-4x a week.  And yet parents just...allow it.  

 

Plus, it is a physically damaging and dangerous sport at the top levels.

 

And yet, I love gymnastics.  I love the way it looks, and the way it felt to do, and the strength and flexibility and sense of control of body you get from it.  I just also know that I never ever want my daughters to get good enough to have to worry about demanding coaches.

 

 

Do you think the XCEL program (which didn't exist when I was in gymnastics 20 years ago, at least to my knowledge) helps with this for kids who are in it?  Our gym only does XCEL after the introductory levels, no JO.  

 

I 100% agree. We were at a gym like that. These were all good, loving parents. None of them really seemed to be living vicariously through their children. But it felt almost like a cult. This gym pulled ten kids a year out of a thousand to be on team. TEN. So it started there. Feeling like a chosen one. Wow, she must be really talented. And the coaches weren't too bad at first (at 4 and 5) but by 7 and 8 the very same coaches were in my opinion, verbally and emotionally abusive. But we were all scared that they wouldn't get as good of coaching anywhere else. Wasted potential is what I know kept running through my head.

 

I would ask the other parents what they would do if their daughter's teacher talked to her that way. What I got back was a bunch of mumbling about how they had tough coaches in high school and they really respected them. To which my response was always, me too, but they're 6! They're learning from this how they should be treated. They're forming ideas about who they are and now much worth they have as people.

 

And the part I didn't say, was that most kids who start in competitive gym at a very young age are pleasers. They didn't pick gymnastics - we put them in a mommy and me and they were the ones who were best at doing what they were told. They know we are in awe of what they do and so they want to do it more. Come to think of it, this may be why the old gym took kids on from 4-6 years old and then the team door was shut. They want the extremely compliant kids. (Sorry, revelation.) 

 

We probably stayed a year too long, but we moved to an Xcel gym. I would say that it's not a surefire way to find good (decent human being) coaches. We compete against two gyms who have awful coaches. I would say that since Xcel is lower stakes, you see less of the crazy coaching and parenting. However, in some states, gyms are using Xcel to speed their most talented girls past the compulsories, so the competition is still very similar to JO. Here that is not the case, but Xcel empties out at the higher levels. The few who stick with gym long enough to get past platinum usually transition to level 7. Then you get the issue where at some gyms Xcel is considered the "lesser" team, and JO girls are threatened with getting "sent down to Xcel" if they don't make skills/work hard enough, which is damaging to girls on Xcel in a whole different way. Then at smaller gyms, often the same coaches who coach JO coach Xcel, OR totally inexperienced coaches who don't know what they're doing coach Xcel. Several of the gyms we compete against do what I consider to be bad-form, dangerous gymnastics, because the hours and expectations are lower.

 

We found our gym by trying out gyms, combing meet scores for trends, and talking to coaches. We are at an Xcel-only gym, but they were JO until a few years ago, so the coaches are extremely experienced and know what good and safe gymnastics is. 

 

The only way to make sure your kids' coaches are good is to watch practice. I'm sure eternalsummer may know, but the non gym moms may not...Did you know most serious gymnastics gyms do not allow team parents to watch practice? Or only 15 minutes at the end, or only the last Friday of the month. Bull freaking S***. I refused to even consider gyms with this policy. It's one thing that I feel REALLY needs to change. I never would have known what went on at DD's old gym if I didn't watch. 

 

The infamous ranch, where all national team development camps were held, and where the most talented girls in the country were training, from the age of 7, does not allow parents. Can you imagine? Seems like with all this coming out, we are seeing the reason children having their parents around is a good idea. Someone has to have the CHILD's best interest at heart. 

[Aura]

I have to say that, although I know we are focusing on girls in this thread, I hope anyone who has been abused will come forward and demand justice — and that includes the young male athletes, as well, because I’m sure there are plenty of pervert coaches, trainers, and team doctors who are abusing them, too.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack... it was just something I have been thinking about lately, after all of the focus on this issue.

 

Yes, I have mostly boys, so this is something I've thought about as well. There are boys that have been abused, too. Justice needs to be blind, including gender-blind. Abuse is abuse.

[swimmermom3]

It is disgusting to ask our host a question on a topic on which she has a high-level of expertise?

 

I don't think so.

 

I'd love to hear an informed opinion on the appropriateness of these words:

 

Our Constitution does not allow for cruel and unusual punishment.“If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls ― these young women in their childhood ― I would allow some or many people to do to him what he did to others.

 

And whether it is ever OK to signal support for the rape of murder of a convict by a judge.

 

Who better to weigh in on the question that SWB?

 

I ask as a sign of respect.

 

Bill

 

Bill, many on this thread have agreed with your original statement. Others haven't. It is unlikely at this point that continuing to promulgate the same point, is going to change any more minds. That doesn't negate the seriousness of the point you made.

 

I have always enjoyed my discussions with you and would appreciate hearing what your thoughts are on how we can change the culture. I will assume that one of your first suggestions is that rape should never be acceptable under any circumstances.  Many of us agree with that premise and several of those that agree have been rape survivors. I mentioned that my son brought up that making prison rape jokes is part of promoting rape culture.

 

What can we do in the area of sports? I know you played football. Is Will Jr. playing football?  

 

I will go see if I can find the support for the following info, but I thought I saw somewhere that the majority of sexual assaults on campus are linked to sports teams?  Do you think the culture in some sports is part of the problem? If so, what do you think can be done about it?  When the sports programs involve minors, what can we do to protect them? I am thinking about football coaches who let young players continue to play with severe injuries. 

[FaithManor]

I have been on a board break for a while, and unfortunately probably won't be able to get back after tonight due to mom having surgery again this week and needing a lot of care after. But I did want to weigh in here as a Michigander who has seen a LOT of reports on this and as a 4H volunteer who has seen some fall out among alumni.

 

We would all like to see a LOT of people not just lose their jobs but go to jail. The sad reality is that Michigan's mandatory reporter law is rather narrow and at the same time kind of ambiguous so that is going to make this very, very hard. Essentially the only ones who can be charged under the law are pastors, teachers, doctors, therapists, law enforcement. Teachers, as a term, is rather undefined so the legal consensus is that this probably cannot be applied to coaches unless those coaches are also teaching "academics" so ie. the basketball coach that teaches PE and Health, or Social Studies or whatever in a school as a paid employee. There is a strong feeling among local judges and lawyers that it will be very difficult to make the statute apply to sports coaches who do not have an academic schedule which would appear to be the case for MSU coaches.

 

So the next place to look is the child endangerment law, and again, it may be difficult to apply though if our Attorney General thinks it will stick, I would expect action on that and even accessories to a crime if possible. But again, this is Michigan. It is pretty darn hard to get an obvious mandatory reporter brought up on anything so there isn't high hope of criminal charges against MSU employees going very far. The most likely, pathetic road to any kind of punishment will be financial, and yes I think the civil suits will be massive and settled rapidly because these people are as guilty as sin, as the saying goes.

 

Despite the Big Ten Football obsession here, even alumni want to see punitive, big stick, makes Penn State's punishment look like absolutely nothing, style action from the NCAA. That says a lot in a place where the Wolverine/Spartan rivalry is a consuming fire. It has shaken some people for certain. Some who graduated from MSU are heart broken to call it their alma mater, and further broken to note that criminal action against those who were complicit in this man's horror show probably will.not come to fruition and will only likely suffer nothing more than the desolation of their pocketbooks.

 

Within 4H, some of us have been cautioned by program directors to consider ourselves mandatory reporters moving forward even though we are volunteers. Some program directors are looking at getting special speakers to come in and give us training in the matter. While I have qualms about putting an untrained, volunteer army in the hot seat for identifying abuse, I do think that at the very least, we do need to be trained anyway. The law probably should not be changed to cover volunteers as that could seriously gut a lot of programs like 4H, Scouts, etc., but still we work with minors in an official capacity so it is important that protocols are put in place. It should have been done a long, long time ago. It should not have waited until something this gut wrenching occurred.

 

As to athletics...I suspect that on a national level things are probably like the Michigan establishment, but I do not know that for certain. There may be some regions where things are a lot better. But in Michigan sports is god. The end. And the concept of making sacrifices to that god is very, very real. Winning is everything; there is no sacrifice too great. So sadly, I am not shocked that this happened at a Michigan college, and even sadder to say that the scope is not surprising to some of us. That is the worst thing of all. For a lot of years, the talk among many of us non sports oriented families had been that the athletic establishment here was out of control in a gigantic, all encompassing, human swallowing way. When we look at the abuse heaped upon athletes just at the middle and high school level in class C and D schools whose students will never see a sports scholarship of any kind, we have to imagine what the abuse must look like at an elite level. We thought it had to be hideously criminal, barely imaginable. And it turned out to be unimaginable.

 

Since Penn State did not turn out to be the case study that issued the air raid siren of ominous warning, I and many others I have spoken with at least hope that MSU will serve as a radical 180 degree turn within every educational and athletic organization to purge, cut, burn, take no prisoners in a radical new perspective in sports, and that needs to include the professional establishment as well.

 

Money talks. Sad. Sigh...But it does. I urge anyone with tickets to a a game that involves the Spartans to demand a refund, not attend, express email or phone call outrage in clear, blazing language to MSU. I hope alumni withdraw pending donations, put donations on hold for the future. Anything within your power to make the powers that be feel the pain is very welcome. Prayers, good thoughts, vibes whatever you have for our Attorney General who is going to take on an entity in this state who has always acted as though it should have NO accountability and is the darling, favorite of many very powerful state politicians. This is going to be a lot like a salmon trying to swim up Niagara Falls!

[snowbeltmom]

My daughter plays tennis, but she is by no means Olympic bound. She may not even be high school tennis team good. She mostly has group lessons, but she has had a few private lessons. Her coach is a man. The vast majority of the time, her private lessons are at the public tennis facility with zillions of people around. However, once she had a lesson at our private courts. 90 minutes. So I went for a run around the neighborhood checking in about every ten to twenty minutes. It was just weird. I didn’t want to just sit there and watch. (Some tennis parents actually pick up balls through the lesson to get more lesson in. I am not that mom. If that makes me a bad tennis mom, so be it.) Anyway, I think the only way to protect her is to teach her to be vocal. And even that might not be good enough. I mean, I would believe her, but I’m not enough. How sad is that?

 

I do wonder if women’s tennis might be the next thing to fall. Or ice skating. Or soccer. Or softball. Or volleyball. Or all the above. And it makes me horribly sad to think that girls are considered expendable. The sport was more important than the individual girls. And I don’t even think it has to be high level for this to happen. Summer swim league, rec soccer...

I have known of abuse that has happened in tennis, but in all of the situations I know about first-hand, the coach was traveling with the minors without parents.

 

I have been shocked at the number of parents who pay to have their teen-age daughter travel with their coach all over the country unsupervised. Obviously, most of the coaches can be trusted, I would never want to take that chance, though.

[Caroline]

I have known of abuse that has happened in tennis, but in all of the situations I know about first-hand, the coach was traveling with the minors without parents.

 

I have been shocked at the number of parents who pay to have their teen-age daughter travel with their coach all over the country unsupervised. Obviously, most of the coaches can be trusted, I would never want to take that chance, though.

I don’t doubt that abuse has happened in many (all?) sports. I think there is probably another big scandal like this just around the corner.

[thessa516]

 

The only way to make sure your kids' coaches are good is to watch practice. I'm sure eternalsummer may know, but the non gym moms may not...Did you know most serious gymnastics gyms do not allow team parents to watch practice? Or only 15 minutes at the end, or only the last Friday of the month. Bull freaking S***. I refused to even consider gyms with this policy. It's one thing that I feel REALLY needs to change. I never would have known what went on at DD's old gym if I didn't watch. 

 

The infamous ranch, where all national team development camps were held, and where the most talented girls in the country were training, from the age of 7, does not allow parents. Can you imagine? Seems like with all this coming out, we are seeing the reason children having their parents around is a good idea. Someone has to have the CHILD's best interest at heart. 

 

And this is not limited to sports! When I was looking for a pediatric dentist, I was shocked at how many offices had a policy of not allowing parents to accompany children during treatment. How often have parents trusted some "expert", only for that person to abuse his/her position? 

[LMD]

Several of you have expressed the sentiment that nothing will change until it financially hurts them.

 

This nearly brings me to tears.

 

The idea that their lives don't really matter, only money does.

 

It sickens me.

 

Eta: I'm not saying those who expressed the idea sickened me. You are only speaking truth. It's that truth that sickens me.

They don't see their victims as full humans. They are just taking what they're entitled to.

Take away their entitlement - their money, power, freedom - then they take notice.

[unsinkable]

I have to say that, although I know we are focusing on girls in this thread, I hope anyone who has been abused will come forward and demand justice — and that includes the young male athletes, as well, because I’m sure there are plenty of pervert coaches, trainers, and team doctors who are abusing them, too.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack... it was just something I have been thinking about lately, after all of the focus on this issue.

We had a local male coach that was arrested and charged with sexual misconduct and sending sexually explicit pics of himself to a young teen boy he coached. The boy's parents found out when they found their son sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night to meet him.

 

He had coached at day camps my son went to but he was never his team coach.

[Caroline]

I have to say that, although I know we are focusing on girls in this thread, I hope anyone who has been abused will come forward and demand justice — and that includes the young male athletes, as well, because I’m sure there are plenty of pervert coaches, trainers, and team doctors who are abusing them, too.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack... it was just something I have been thinking about lately, after all of the focus on this issue.

There have been a number of cases with wrestling and martial arts coaches in our area.

[Sk8ermaiden]

My favorite (the only?) gymnastics podcast - the woman who hosts it is also an avid wrestling fan. And she has been sickened that their response to being asked if THEY should maybe implement more protective policies for their kids, was basically that THEY haven't had a scandal, so there's no need. Everyone's just got their heads in the sand. Predators are in every industry. 

[swimmermom3]

My daughter plays tennis, but she is by no means Olympic bound. She may not even be high school tennis team good. She mostly has group lessons, but she has had a few private lessons. Her coach is a man. The vast majority of the time, her private lessons are at the public tennis facility with zillions of people around. However, once she had a lesson at our private courts. 90 minutes. So I went for a run around the neighborhood checking in about every ten to twenty minutes. It was just weird. I didn’t want to just sit there and watch. (Some tennis parents actually pick up balls through the lesson to get more lesson in. I am not that mom. If that makes me a bad tennis mom, so be it.) Anyway, I think the only way to protect her is to teach her to be vocal. And even that might not be good enough. I mean, I would believe her, but I’m not enough. How sad is that?

 

I do wonder if women’s tennis might be the next thing to fall. Or ice skating. Or soccer. Or softball. Or volleyball. Or all the above. And it makes me horribly sad to think that girls are considered expendable. The sport was more important than the individual girls. And I don’t even think it has to be high level for this to happen. Summer swim league, rec soccer...

 

Let's aim for the USOC. I just found this article and I am more than a bit disturbed.

USOC did not heed sexual abuse warnings in 2004, 2005

"However, there are now at least two documented instances in which national governing bodies raised concerns about child protection policies with the USOC.

 

In the case of the 2004 and '05 letters from USA Swimming, the USOC did not address the idea of creating a policy that could be implemented by all of the national governing bodies in its response. Instead, it referred USA Swimming to a company that was doing background checks for a handful of other national governing bodies and said it was in the process of sending out a reminder about the importance of them.

In 1999, the then-president of USA Gymnastics, Bob Colarossi, made a similar plea. In lodging a complaint against a USOC group that had threatened to decertify USA Gymnastics as the sport’s governing body over its policy of immediately suspending anyone charged with a felony involving abuse of a child, Colarossi warned that the USOC was not doing enough to protect young athletes.

“This is not an issue that can be wished away,†Colarossi wrote. “The USOC can either position itself as a leader in the protection of young athletes or it can wait until it is forced to deal with the problem under much more difficult circumstances.â€

[Lostinabook]

The only way to make sure your kids' coaches are good is to watch practice. I'm sure eternalsummer may know, but the non gym moms may not...Did you know most serious gymnastics gyms do not allow team parents to watch practice? Or only 15 minutes at the end, or only the last Friday of the month. Bull freaking S***. I refused to even consider gyms with this policy. It's one thing that I feel REALLY needs to change. I never would have known what went on at DD's old gym if I didn't watch. 

 

The infamous ranch, where all national team development camps were held, and where the most talented girls in the country were training, from the age of 7, does not allow parents. Can you imagine? Seems like with all this coming out, we are seeing the reason children having their parents around is a good idea. Someone has to have the CHILD's best interest at heart. 

 

This I cannot comprehend. For pity's sake, the doors in our church's children's program are open (with gates for toddlers and younger) the whole time kids are in the rooms. Which, frankly, is a pitb as a caregiver because every time someone walks by a kid flips out b/c s/he thinks a parent should be coming, BUT as a parent I thought it was great.  

 

I'm sure there are sports parents who are the equivalent of stage parents and don't care what happens as long as the kids "makes it", but I'm guessing that maybe most parents are also groomed? I'm trying to come up with a reasonable, charitable explanation for why you would allow your kid in a program which doesn't allow any parent supervision.

[Pam in CT]

Thank you, Susan, for re-opening.  As SKL said way upthread, I think that hiccups notwithstanding, this has been a particularly productive and eye-opening thread.  

 

Perhaps even the Troll Takeover has been productive and eye-opening in its way. 

 

 

 

 Sidebar taken over to private message during the thread's closure...

Wise as usual (and I had to Google it). It’s vastly preferrable to the popcorn comments so please, please let’s go this route. I know earlier Pam in CT had had an interesting language link that I’m hoing she’ll share here, but that only happens if the thread stays open.

... (thank you mamaraby!) this is the language link:

 

 

 

 

re heinousness of rape of men v women, power, agency and language

Quote

...Doesn’t this then also point back to a power differential. Within what is often referred to as rape culture, the men are the ones who do the pursuing and conquest. It’s the women who should receive and be conquered. So for a man to experience that same thing is also about losing status as a “man†as defined by that culture. I don’t know that any of them is worse than the other. They are both equally heinous because it denies another’s humanity, bodily integrity, and right to consent or withhold consent. And yeah, those ideas all have roots in sexism.

 

 

 

 

About a million years ago, I read a book by an Icelandic linguist, about depictions of sex -- as it happened, homoerotic sex -- in art and literature in the ancient world -- Israelite, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian etc.

 

In the first portion of the book, the author focused on language and grammar, noting that in all the relevant languages, the verb for "to have sex" was transitive.  

 

Requiring, grammatically, a SUBJECT (with agency) and an OBJECT (unto whom the copulating verb was done to).  Akin to the verbs, in modern English, the verbs "to penetrate" or "to f@ck" or "to screw."  Or, within the same grammatical structure: "to rape." 

 

He went on to observe that the depictions of homosexual sex in ancient literature and art virtually ALWAYS have a sharp differential in POWER: conquering soldier / captive, slaveholder / slave, intact nobleman/ eunuch, much older man / youth.  To be on the receiving end of that transitive verb was to be powerless, shamed, emasculated.

 

He went on to discuss quite different subjects, about art and literature and society.  I've been left wondering for YEARS about how language shapes perception, about both coerced and consensual sex, heterosexual and homosexual, agency and phobia.  Because complex wordy workarounds like "make love with" notwithstanding, our common and simple verbs for sex are still transitive.  Our verbs still have associations with power and powerlessness. To be "screwed" is to have something taken.  To be "f@cked" is to be in trouble.  

 

 

 

 

And Carol's insight about men responding far more viscerally to the idea of rape of men, than rape of women -- and why that is so -- is now bringing me back to that.

 

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

This I cannot comprehend. For pity's sake, the doors in our church's children's program are open (with gates for toddlers and younger) the whole time kids are in the rooms. Which, frankly, is a pitb as a caregiver because every time someone walks by a kid flips out b/c s/he thinks a parent should be coming, BUT as a parent I thought it was great.  

 

I'm sure there are sports parents who are the equivalent of stage parents and don't care what happens as long as the kids "makes it", but I'm guessing that maybe most parents are also groomed? I'm trying to come up with a reasonable, charitable explanation for why you would allow your kid in a program which doesn't allow any parent supervision.

 

It really does pull you in. I compare it to a cult mentality. And if you have a child talented enough to be asked to the ranch...well...and their coach does go too of course...and all the top gymnasts do it so it's probably fine...

[Rosie_0801]

They don't see their victims as full humans. They are just taking what they're entitled to.

Take away their entitlement - their money, power, freedom - then they take notice.

 

That's what I was trying to get at. If entitlement is a/the key to the problem, it's going to be a/the key to the solution.