Larry Nassar

[swimmermom3]

I agree, except I'll quibble with your numbers. ☺

 

The statistics say that out of every 1000 sexual assaults, only 11 will be referred to prosecution and only 6 will see a day in prison.

 

If up to 10% are false, then statistically a maximum of 0.6 of falsely accused are likely to see a day in prison and 1.1 to be referred for prosecution.

 

So really we're talking about 1 man > 900 victims.

 

Oh, I am perfectly okay with your numbers quibble, except that the fact that only 6 in 1000 will go to prison, makes me physically ill.

 

We have to change this. We just have to. It is unforgivable.

[fairfarmhand]

But what about all the innocent athletes? (You know, the 16 foortball players at MSU that have been charged with sexual assault.) What about all the innocent fans? What about the innocent townspeople?

 

What about all the innocent men?

 

What about all the innocent gun owners?

 

At this point, throw hands up in the air because nothing can be done ever. EVER. EVER. (By the way, I love the idea of the punishment lasting as long as the neglect did.)

 

Because apparently hundreds of thousands of sexual assault victims, and tens of thousands of gun violence victims were never innocent?

 

I like the idea of a SA data base, but could it ever be used against the victims? Hacked? Details spread over the internet?

 

What you've described about gymnastics applies to the swim world too. There was a local coach, you know, one of the Swim Gods, who would talk to his young female swimmers with his finger hooked in the bottom of their swimsuit in public. The excuse was he was just an old school coach. It took people filming him at a swim meet to get him gone. His employers had just passed him along.

What In the world! Yikes! I think my dh would punch someone if he ever saw that. It would just be a impulse!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greta]

 

When only about 6 rapists in 1000 see a day in prison, when women are silenced and shamed everyday about sexual assault, darn right I'll celebrate a judge who both gave victims a voice and gave them justice!

 

 

 

LMD, I am so very sorry that you were assaulted.  And that you never got justice.  I was wondering if you could share with me where you got this 6 in 1000 number?  Not because I doubt you, I just want to be able to point to the source.  I can believe it, because I've had the thought before that rape is basically legal in our culture.  Like most women, *many* of my friends and family were raped or assaulted.  Only two of them ever went to the police, and in both of those cases the police brushed it off and didn't do a damn thing about it.  So if I were compiling statistics based on personal experience, I would guess that about three-fourths of all women have been sexually assaulted, and 0% of perpetrators ever spend a day in jail.  But of course, I'd rather have some real statistics to rely on.  And I agree wholeheartedly with what you said here, and I thank you for saying it.  

[LMD]

LMD, I am so very sorry that you were assaulted. And that you never got justice. I was wondering if you could share with me where you got this 6 in 1000 number? Not because I doubt you, I just want to be able to point to the source. I can believe it, because I've had the thought before that rape is basically legal in our culture. Like most women, *many* of my friends and family were raped or assaulted. Only two of them ever went to the police, and in both of those cases the police brushed it off and didn't do a damn thing about it. So if I were compiling statistics based on personal experience, I would guess that about three-fourths of all women have been sexually assaulted, and 0% of perpetrators ever spend a day in jail. But of course, I'd rather have some real statistics to rely on. And I agree wholeheartedly with what you said here, and I thank you for saying it.

Thank you. My assault pales absolutely next to most of my friends and family, it feels like no big deal - what a sad world. To be fair to the police, they did believe me and took a statement, but then it just disappeared...

If I were guessing at statistics from experience, I'd say about 80-90% of women have been sexually assaulted at least once, and 0% have had the perpetrator see any legal consequences.

 

I got the statistic from RAINN - https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

Edited January 28, 2018 by LMD

[ktgrok]

one of my son's had an absolute whackadoodle for a girlfriend.  she was n.u.t.s - so yes, I DID fear something like that happening.   seriously - she was trouble.

 

eta: maybe this is why my feelings on this subject are so strong - it realistically could have happened to my son.

I was so relived when he broke up with her.

 

But were you specifically worried more about false rape than false robbery or assault charges? Those happen to but people don't usually worry about them, you know?

[Greta]

Thank you. My assault pales absolutely next to most of my friends and family, it feels like no big deal - what a sad world. To be fair to the police, they did believe me and took a statement, but then it just disappeared...

If I were guessing at statistics from experience, I'd say about 80-90% of women have been sexually assaulted at least once, and 0% have had the perpetrator see any legal consequences.

 

I got the statistic from RAINN - https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

 

 

Thank you for the link.  

 

And :grouphug:

[solascriptura]

Except, that is one more part of the issue. It shouldn’t require being someone’s relative to be treated with respect.

Of course!  Every woman is someone's daughter or grand-daughter.  That is what I was getting at.  It wasn't that only a man's relatives deserve respect.  

[solascriptura]

But what about all the innocent athletes?  (You know, the 16 foortball players at MSU that have been charged with sexual assault.)  What about all the innocent fans?  What about the innocent townspeople? 

 

What about all the innocent men?

 

What about all the innocent gun owners?

 

At this point, throw hands up in the air because nothing can be done ever. EVER. EVER. (By the way, I love the idea of the punishment lasting as long as the neglect did.)

 

Because apparently hundreds of thousands of sexual assault victims, and tens of thousands of gun violence victims were never innocent? 

 

I like the idea of a SA data base, but could it ever be used against the victims? Hacked? Details spread over the internet?

 

What you've described about gymnastics applies to the swim world too. There was a local coach, you know, one of the Swim Gods, who would talk to his young female swimmers with his finger hooked in the bottom of their swimsuit in public. The excuse was he was just an old school coach. It took people filming him at a swim meet to get him gone. His employers had just passed him along.

What on earth?  I'm absolutely astounded!  My kids swim too and I have never heard anything like this.  How could this go on and for how long?  There are always parents swarming everywhere during meets and practices.  I'm absolutely disgusted by this.  

 

Yeah.  I'm judging all of those parents that said that he was just an old swim coach.  How could they let their little girls be treated like that?!  

Edited January 28, 2018 by solascriptura

[Lostinabook]

I know the conversation has moved on from a specific discussion to a more general one, but 20/20's episode last night was on the Nassar case and included several of those who gave victim impact statements. Much of what was said can be read elsewhere, but I think it's powerful to hear the words said aloud. I watched on hulu, but you should be able to watch it in a week on abc.com (unless your cable provider is listed--then you can watch now.)

[gardenmom5]

But were you specifically worried more about false rape than false robbery or assault charges? Those happen to but people don't usually worry about them, you know?

 

yes - It's hard to explain.

a fake robbery or general assault charge never occurred to me. at all.

she did inspire him to make some big changes in his life, starting with dumping her.  we'd been able to minimize the contact.  she was a very very troubled girl.  I really feared what could happen in the relationship.

 

eta: I should add - she was incredibly manipulative and could tell huge lies without blinking.  she also had no hesitation in telling terrible lies about other people

Edited January 28, 2018 by gardenmom5

[goldberry]

This thread is a roller coaster of emotions for me.

 

FWIW, I think the judge should not have used the words she did.  They did bother me...as a tiny, tiny blip on the radar.    But the way this whole thread got turned into mostly about "the judge should resign" and others trying to keep explaining how that wasn't the point, speaking against a total brick wall ... OMG.  That tweet was spot on. That's the whole entire problem in a nutshell, is that there can't even be a thread about this horrible rapist and his victims without it being deflected and redirected to be about something else.  It's disgusting and predictable all at the same time.

 

And I am so, so sorry that I've probably been guilty of it myself in the past at some point.  

 

Thank God for the courage of those women.  I am humbled by it.

[swimmermom3]

What on earth?  I'm absolutely astounded!  My kids swim too and I have never heard anything like this.  How could this go on and for how long?  There are always parents swarming everywhere during meets and practices.  I'm absolutely disgusted by this.  

 

Yeah.  I'm judging all of those parents that said that he was just an old swim coach.  How could they let their little girls be treated like that?!  

'Handsy' swim coach Don King wants job back

Much of the article reads like the poor guy was falsely accused or more accurately why it's difficult to pin charges on these jerks. Here is the final paragraph:

 

"During his interview with Lake Oswego police last June, regarding the Albany swim meet, King didn't deny touching the girls, hooking his finger under their swimsuits, letting them sit on his lap or kissing them, saying he was merely being affectionate. He said he often gave his swimmers "rubdowns" that may include pressing a "trigger point" in their buttocks muscles to help them relax. He said he sometimes lifts their swimsuits to reach the trigger points. He also said that touching a girl's groin area was a misguided way of showing attention, affection and love to the girls. He said it was stupid that he does it.

In conclusion, King said he may have overstepped his bounds. He said that if he saw his own daughter touched in that manner he would "definitely tell the coach about it. Because it's inappropriate."

[ktgrok]

 

a fake robbery or general assault charge never occurred to me. at all.

 

 

That's kind of my point. Fake rape charges are on par with other fake reports of crimes, and yet, we don't worry about those, because the media doesn't drum up coverage of them. Neither does society. We don't mistrust someone reporting a mugging the way we mistrust someone reporting a rape. We don't fear someone accusing us of mugging unjustly the way we fear being accused of rape (the general societal "we"). Why?

[ktgrok]

You know, what's most upsetting to me is that these women were very happy with the judge, pleased with how she handled things, called her a hero, and then a man comes along and decides no, they shouldn't like her, they deserve better, guess they just aren't bright enough to know what really happened and what it meant, etc. 

 

He doesn't get to speak for them. 

[swimmermom3]

This thread is a roller coaster of emotions for me.

 

FWIW, I think the judge should not have used the words she did.  They did bother me...as a tiny, tiny blip on the radar.    But the way this whole thread got turned into mostly about "the judge should resign" and others trying to keep explaining how that wasn't the point, speaking against a total brick wall ... OMG.  That tweet was spot on. That's the whole entire problem in a nutshell, is that there can't even be a thread about this horrible rapist and his victims without it being deflected and redirected to be about something else.  It's disgusting and predictable all at the same time.

 

And I am so, so sorry that I've probably been guilty of it myself in the past at some point.  

 

Thank God for the courage of those women.  I am humbled by it.

 

You are absolutely right, and I do apologize for contributing to the distraction. The victims should absolutely be the focus and I was blown away by the fact that the judge let them all speak. Maybe I am wrong, but my impression in sexual assault cases that go to trial where there is more than one victim, is that only one or two at most get to speak. It almost deliberately minimizes the impact of the crime.

[Joker]

I didn't like what the judge said and I've avoided most comment sections on articles because it's filled with the same. IDK, but being someone who was abused, I don't like to think of others enduring the same - even if they are evil. I don't think there should have been so many posts on here about it and it shouldn't be the focus of this whole thing at all.

 

I will also say it's difficult to hear, not just with this case but with the whole metoo movement, how brave and awesome everyone who speaks out is. Yes, they are brave and awesome but those who don't speak out aren't any less. Some of us are just happy to have survived and know that speaking out will cost us a lot. If I spoke out, I would lose my family. Not my dh or kids but my mom and siblings. I didn't speak out in the beginning (I was only 9) because I knew my mom wouldn't believe me but I was just as scared that my dad would. I was so scared my dad would do something to the person and be taken away. Dad is gone now but those remaining wouldn't believe. Some of us have to live with knowing that the person who hurt us is a very loved member of our own family. It's all difficult. I don't know if I'm making sense but it's just hard. 

[swimmermom3]

I didn't like what the judge said and I've avoided most comment sections on articles because it's filled with the same. IDK, but being someone who was abused, I don't like to think of others enduring the same - even if they are evil. I don't think there should have been so many posts on here about it and it shouldn't be the focus of this whole thing at all.

 

I will also say it's difficult to hear, not just with this case but with the whole metoo movement, how brave and awesome everyone who speaks out is. Yes, they are brave and awesome but those who don't speak out aren't any less. Some of us are just happy to have survived and know that speaking out will cost us a lot. If I spoke out, I would lose my family. Not my dh or kids but my mom and siblings. I didn't speak out in the beginning (I was only 9) because I knew my mom wouldn't believe me but I was just as scared that my dad would. I was so scared my dad would do something to the person and be taken away. Dad is gone now but those remaining wouldn't believe. Some of us have to live with knowing that the person who hurt us is a very loved member of our own family. It's all difficult. I don't know if I'm making sense but it's just hard. 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: I am so sorry. I think that anyone who lives in the shadow of sexual assault, female or male, speaking out or not speaking out, is brave and awesome.

[ErinE]

Some of us have to live with knowing that the person who hurt us is a very loved member of our own family. It's all difficult. I don't know if I'm making sense but it's just hard. 

 

I support you. I stand with you. You make complete sense to me. It's lonely, in a way that cannot be articulated in mere words. You are not alone.

[goldberry]

I didn't like what the judge said and I've avoided most comment sections on articles because it's filled with the same. IDK, but being someone who was abused, I don't like to think of others enduring the same - even if they are evil. I don't think there should have been so many posts on here about it and it shouldn't be the focus of this whole thing at all.

 

I will also say it's difficult to hear, not just with this case but with the whole metoo movement, how brave and awesome everyone who speaks out is. Yes, they are brave and awesome but those who don't speak out aren't any less. Some of us are just happy to have survived and know that speaking out will cost us a lot. If I spoke out, I would lose my family. Not my dh or kids but my mom and siblings. I didn't speak out in the beginning (I was only 9) because I knew my mom wouldn't believe me but I was just as scared that my dad would. I was so scared my dad would do something to the person and be taken away. Dad is gone now but those remaining wouldn't believe. Some of us have to live with knowing that the person who hurt us is a very loved member of our own family. It's all difficult. I don't know if I'm making sense but it's just hard. 

 

Joker, I'm sorry if my comment about their courage caused any hurt. I was only thinking about this specific case and what they did and went through.

 

Surviving and living and just continuing to move on is a victory, whether spoken about or not.   :grouphug:

[gardenmom5]

That's kind of my point. Fake rape charges are on par with other fake reports of crimes, and yet, we don't worry about those, because the media doesn't drum up coverage of them. Neither does society. We don't mistrust someone reporting a mugging the way we mistrust someone reporting a rape. We don't fear someone accusing us of mugging unjustly the way we fear being accused of rape (the general societal "we"). Why?

 

my fear was specific to the girlfriend - not general.  her very behavior sparked those particular fears - not general.  and if not r@pe - then kidnapping.  we actually had the cops show up at one point, BECAUSE OF HER (she's a drama queen - so her father called them.).  they asked a few questions (she was over 18) - and left.

 

if my son had never gotten involved with her - I would never have had those fears for HIM.  (I have never had such fears for my other son.)

I doubt he will ever get involved with such a whackadoodle again, he's learned to spot the flags - and hearken to them.  he saw the flags - he just didn't have the self-confidence to follow them.

 

(and lest I get criticism for describing her thus - I would remind people of some of the threads over the years where parents were concerned about a girlfriend/boyfriend.)

 

You know, what's most upsetting to me is that these women were very happy with the judge, pleased with how she handled things, called her a hero, and then a man comes along and decides no, they shouldn't like her, they deserve better, guess they just aren't bright enough to know what really happened and what it meant, etc. 

 

He doesn't get to speak for them. 

 

much as "that man" tried - most of the women here did tell him to shove off, stop trying to distract, and that his "opinion" needed an adjustment.  that the opinions that mattered - were the girls, and they thought she was a hero.

 

but you know what - not only does "that man", (or any other man) get to speak for me,  other women don't get to speak for me either.

each of those young women - spoke for themselves - until they were *done* speaking.

Edited January 28, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Joker]

Joker, I'm sorry if my comment about their courage caused any hurt. I was only thinking about this specific case and what they did and went through.

 

Surviving and living and just continuing to move on is a victory, whether spoken about or not.   :grouphug:

 

Oh no! It's not your words! It's just something I've been seeing over the past several months/weeks. I think it's just weighing on me and I don't want any of us to forget those who feel they can't speak out. I am envious of those who can. 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

I will also say it's difficult to hear, not just with this case but with the whole metoo movement, how brave and awesome everyone who speaks out is. Yes, they are brave and awesome but those who don't speak out aren't any less. Some of us are just happy to have survived and know that speaking out will cost us a lot. If I spoke out, I would lose my family. Not my dh or kids but my mom and siblings. I didn't speak out in the beginning (I was only 9) because I knew my mom wouldn't believe me but I was just as scared that my dad would. I was so scared my dad would do something to the person and be taken away. Dad is gone now but those remaining wouldn't believe. Some of us have to live with knowing that the person who hurt us is a very loved member of our own family. It's all difficult. I don't know if I'm making sense but it's just hard. 

 

hugs.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying.

 

my grandmother was psychologically abusive - we were raised to think her opinion was the cat's meow.  and if we had to debase ourselves for her approbation - to do it.

 

I always had a hard time with the parable in the NT where the Savior says:  which of you when your son asks bread - will give him a stone? (as in, you'll give your child bread!). . . and I'm thinking - uh, my grandmother would give a stone - and censure us if it wasn't with sufficient obsequiousness.

 

people who haven't had that with a close family member - can have a hard time understanding the dichotomy. 

I can be happy for them that they don't know.  I can be very happy my own children don't know.

[Garga]

This thread is a roller coaster of emotions for me.

 

FWIW, I think the judge should not have used the words she did.  They did bother me...as a tiny, tiny blip on the radar.    But the way this whole thread got turned into mostly about "the judge should resign" and others trying to keep explaining how that wasn't the point, speaking against a total brick wall ... OMG.  That tweet was spot on. That's the whole entire problem in a nutshell, is that there can't even be a thread about this horrible rapist and his victims without it being deflected and redirected to be about something else.  It's disgusting and predictable all at the same time.

 

And I am so, so sorry that I've probably been guilty of it myself in the past at some point.  

 

Thank God for the courage of those women.  I am humbled by it.

 

This is exactly how I feel. I even defended the man at first, and then I woke up to see sooo many more posts by him and I felt sick about it.

 

I have been under a rock and didn’t know anything about this case until I started reading this thread two days ago. I’m reeling from all of it.

[LucyStoner]

I think that it would be profoundly difficult, even for a judge who has probably seen and heard a lot more than most of us ever deal with, to sit and listen to all of the victim statements. It’s a lot. Judges are human beings not super human paragons of optimal professionalism at all moments. I don’t think what she said was ideal but I’m also willing to cut the judge some slack for the context in which she made those remarks. She’s dealing with an unrepentant whiny jackass. I think she gets to say something that was less than ideal without being defrocked and disbarred. That there are A LOT of men, even liberal ones, making a fuss about the judge is wholly unsuprising. Liberal men are often some of the worst when it comes to sexism in my experience. In this situation you have a mix of liberal men and unapologetically sexist men acting like the judge’s words are the biggest deal. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

 

As a survivor of child rape, I really bristle at the common cultural meme that it’s ok for abusers to be abused in prison. No, it is not. Nobody, not even Nasser, deserves to be raped. That we don’t ensure the safety of all in state custody is a shame of which we should all feel the weight. So no one gets to say I am one in favor of vengeance or revenge or part of any sort of mob mentality against rapists. I wouldn’t even condemn my own rapist to assault.

 

ETA- before anyone attacks me for disparaging liberal men, just know that I don’t give a flying duck. Not even one small one. So have at it.

Edited January 28, 2018 by LucyStoner

[Spy Car]

I think that it would be profoundly difficult, even for a judge who has probably seen and heard a lot more than most of us ever deal with, to sit and listen to all of the victim statements. It’s a lot. Judges are human beings not super human paragons of optimal professionalism at all moments. I don’t think what she said was ideal but I’m also willing to cut the judge some slack for the context in which she made those remarks. She’s dealing with an unrepentant whiny jackass. I think she gets to say something that was less than ideal without being defrocked and disbarred. That there are A LOT of men, even liberal ones, making a fuss about the judge is wholly unsuprising. Liberal men are often some of the worst when it comes to sexism in my experience. In this situation you have a mix of liberal men and unapologetically sexist men acting like the judge’s words are the biggest deal. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

 

As a survivor of child rape, I really bristle at the common cultural meme that it’s ok for abusers to be abused in prison. No, it is not. Nobody, not even Nasser, deserves to be raped. That we don’t ensure the safety of all in state custody is a shame of which we should all feel the weight. So no one gets to say I am one in favor of vengeance or revenge or part of any sort of mob mentality against rapists. I wouldn’t even condemn my own rapist to assault.

 

No judges need to be paragons of professionalism. That's the job. if a judge can't handle the job he or she should quit.

 

It brings shame on the justice system that a judge would muse in open court that a prisoner should be raped out of revenge in a rape trial.

 

Such words are sickening from a presiding judge.

 

That multiple individuals want to make this about gender and to make sexist attacks is beneath contempt.

 

Any judge--regardless of gender--who makes these sort of comments in court is unqualified for the position.

 

it is a terrible message to say rape is OK sometimes.

 

This is what we expect in fascist states.

 

I fear for the republic when people excuse reprehensible behavior from the bench. Her shameful words distracted from what should have been an unsullied day of somber justice.

 

Bill

[Lostinabook]

As a survivor of child rape, I really bristle at the common cultural meme that it’s ok for abusers to be abused in prison. No, it is not. Nobody, not even Nasser, deserves to be raped. That we don’t ensure the safety of all in state custody is a shame of which we should all feel the weight. So no one gets to say I am one in favor of vengeance or revenge or part of any sort of mob mentality against rapists. I wouldn’t even condemn my own rapist to assault.

 

On a twitter thread I was reading, some guy said something like he wished Nassar would receive what he'd dealt out and a woman who was a survivor of child rape reponded to him. She said that while she got what he meant, and understood that he was trying to be supportive of the women, she always cringes when she hears someone say that because it implies that rape can be deserved. He replied with an apology which she accepted. It was probably the kindest twitter exchange between strangers who initialIy disagreed with one another that I've ever seen.

[Spy Car]

On a twitter thread I was reading, some guy said something like he wished Nassar would receive what he'd dealt out and a woman who was a survivor of child rape reponded to him. She said that while she got what he meant, and understood that he was trying to be supportive of the women, she always cringes when she hears someone say that because it implies that rape can be deserved. He replied with an apology which she accepted. It was probably the kindest twitter exchange between strangers who initialIy disagreed with one another that I've ever seen.

 

Fortunately, there was a person of character around to straighten this guy out.

 

Such statements are worse than cringe-worthy. 

 

We need more people like this woman to speak up.

 

Bill

[LucyStoner]

Seriously Bill, no one, NOT EVEN YOU, is a superhuman force above all mistakes. Judges, even good ones, make mistakes all the time. In the grand scheme of things, this just is not and should not be the headline. That some rather obtuse men are making it even a sub headline is just silly.

 

Next post usually comes with some level of attack on *me* as a feminist.

 

It’s a story you’ve written before. Sometimes it’s ok to just not take up all the air in a room by repeatedly pounding your own opinion. It is ok, crazy as this sounds, for me or any number of people to disagree with you. I see your point and almost liked your first post but then you just.couldn’t.stop.yourself.

 

Have you ever stopped and tried to take someone else’s perspective?

[LucyStoner]

Fortunately, there was a person of character around to straighten this guy out.

 

Such statements are worse than cringe-worthy.

 

We need more people like this woman to speak up.

 

Bill

I, and others like like me, have been speaking up about this for decades. And trust me, few have listened.

 

It’s never ok to wish rape on someone but lots of people do a lot of things that aren’t ok every single second of any given day. Catch me at the right moment and I’d sooner take a bat to someone’s head than explain, for literally the 10,000th time that no one, not even a rapist, deserves to be raped. No one is perfect. It’s ok to accept our imperfections. So long as I refrain from actually swinging the bat.

[Spy Car]

Seriously Bill, no one, NOT EVEN YOU, is a superhuman force above all mistakes. Judges, even good ones, make mistakes all the time. In the grand scheme of things, this just is not and should not be the headline. That some rather obtuse men are making it even a sub headline is just silly.

 

Next post usually comes with some level of attack on *me* as a feminist.

 

It’s a story you’ve written before. Sometimes it’s ok to just not take up all the air in a room by repeatedly pounding your own opinion. It is ok, crazy as this sounds, for me or any number of people to disagree with you. I see your point and almost liked your first post but then you just.couldn’t.stop.yourself.

 

Have you ever stopped and tried to take someone else’s perspective?

 

This wasn't a "mistake." It was a supreme betrayal of the judicial oath.

 

One can't go that far off the rails and claim to have the necessary judicial temperament necessary for the role.

 

The gender slurs are beneath you. Men and women of sound minds understand that what the judge said in open court was reprehensible, irrespective of her gender.

 

There is no amount of rationalizing or excuse making that will ever (ever) make those comments OK.

 

Horrifying that she legitimized rape as a tool in front of rape victims. Unforgivable.

 

Bill

[LucyStoner]

This wasn't a "mistake." It was a supreme betrayal of the judicial oath.

 

One can't go that far off the rails and claim to have the necessary judicial temperament necessary for the role.

 

The gender slurs are beneath you. Men and women of sound minds understand that what the judge said in open court was reprehensible, irrespective of her gender.

 

There is no amount of rationalizing or excuse making that will ever (ever) make those comments OK.

 

Horrifying that she legitimized rape as a tool in front of rape victims. Unforgivable.

 

Bill

Your horror isn’t shared by those victims.

 

Your remarkable volume of superlatives is beneath a person of your intelligence.

 

I have not now, nor ever, used a gender slur against you other than needing to remind you more than a few times that as a woman, I get to have an opinion and perspective that is different than yours. And that I, as a woman who grew up in poverty, may know a thing or two about sexism and/or classism in our culture that an affluent man may not.

 

Liberal men: not free of sexism and male privilege.

[Garga]

OH MY GOODNESS.

 

Do Not Feed The Troll.

 

(Lucy—you’re ok. We were posting at the same time. My “OH MY GOODNESS†was because I could not BELIEVE that someone came back to troll some more.)

Edited January 28, 2018 by Garga

[LucyStoner]

OH MY GOODNESS.

 

Do Not Feed The Troll.

Bill isn’t a troll. He’s a community member who feels very deeply about things. Some things are big. Like this. And others are not. Like k-cups and unexcused school absenses. Quite often I agree with him. Please stop buying k-cups. But other times, not so much.

[LMD]

OH MY GOODNESS.

 

Do Not Feed The Troll.

 

(Lucy—you’re ok. We were posting at the same time. My “OH MY GOODNESS†was because I could not BELIEVE that someone came back to troll some more.)

But I almost got me a bingo!!! ;)

 

I love how he totally glides over aaaaaaall the sexual assault discussion and brings the thread right back to the important things. :rolleyes:

 

Some kind of privilege showing... can't make a 'gender slur'... self control waning...

Edited January 28, 2018 by LMD

[Spy Car]

Your horror isn’t shared by those victims.

 

Your remarkable volume of superlatives is beneath a person of your intelligence.

 

I have not now, nor ever, used a gender slur against you other than needing to remind you more than a few times that as a woman, I get to have an opinion and perspective that is different than yours. And that I, as a woman who grew up in poverty, may know a thing or two about sexism and/or classism in our culture that an affluent man may not.

 

Liberal men: not free of sexism and male privilege.

 

Are you charging me with sexism and male privilege for expecting a judge, who happens to be female, live up to her office?

 

Should we have double-standards?

 

Of course, you are free to your own opinion, which has nothing to do with being female. 

 

There has been a great deal of sexism and gender-bashing in the thread. It is repugnant. And disappointing.

 

This judge's comments would have been no less (or no more) inappropriate had they come out of the mouth of a male judge.

 

Bill

[gardenmom5]

this has also been weighing on me.

I don't think women are automatically saintly  . . . .  my grandmother- a WOMAN - was my abuser.   my mother - a woman - enabled her.  (my father committed suicide)  I complained, I was told "she loves you".  I was told "you need to chill out and stop over reacting".   . . I was told to "be more understanding" - by my mother.  I honestly though my brother would throttle me when he was b****ing about his 1st ex-wife, and I said "oh, she sounds like grandmother".  (no surprise to me he married a woman like her - he was "the boy," and she coddled him.)

outsiders thought I was an angsty teen, and ignored.   Many many years later, I was sharing a "roll my eyes moment" about her with a male family friend who is a marriage and family counselor.  He was sputtering "but that's abuse . . . "

I had a really hard time learning to be able to even trust a woman, let alone think positive thoughts about them - because of the example of the WOMEN in my life.
 

 

eta: clarification

and despite the childhood molestation, the grooming by my brother's friend, the s3xually assault by a stranger in my own home - they all come short of the damage done to me by  - A woman.

Edited January 28, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Garga]

Bill isn’t a troll. He’s a community member who feels very deeply about things. Some things are big. Like this. And others are not. Like k-cups and unexcused school absenses. Quite often I agree with him. Please stop buying k-cups. But other times, not so much.

I know he’s a member of the community. And he is still a troll right here, right now. His behavior is inexcusable at this point.

 

He should be ashamed of himself. I am very disappointed in him.

 

(And I just fed the troll. GAAA. Don’t feed the troll!)

Edited January 28, 2018 by Garga

[Spy Car]

But I almost got me a bingo!!! ;)

 

I love how he totally glides over aaaaaaall the sexual assault discussion and brings the thread right back to the important things. :rolleyes:

 

Some kind of privilege showing... can't make a 'gender slur'... self control waning...

 

No one is in disagreement over the horrifying actions of Larry Nasser.

 

There is profound disagreement over whether we throw civilization out the window when dealing with a monster of this sort.

 

The judge exemplified the worst in human nature. As a judge, he'd have allowed the same rape that Nasser employed. 

 

That is sick. Deeply sick.

 

Bill

[ErinE]

"Yes... but..." "Yes... but..." The posts are only variations on this theme. Go back and read them. I tried to multiquote and discovered there's a limit to the forum's ability to do so.

The position all boils down to: "Yes Nassar is horrible, but the judge is a miserable failure, her actions were unacceptable, she deserves to lose her position and her career."

 

All the posts are a variation on "Yes... but..."

 

I've said that the judge's words were wrong. Others have done the same. The continued posts have forced me to come around to the idea that fundamentally, this is why abusers continue.  It's because people deflect from the real issue. It's to use a poster's own words, disappointing, though that word doesn't begin to capture the feeling that dwells in my heart and throttles the words I wish to pour out from my throat.

 

Not a single post without a single histrionic "yes... but..." Go back and read the posts. All of them. As someone who witnessed a truly brave person stand against family, people that proclaimed love and still turned a blind eye to evil, I say it's not bravery to lecture a group of women on an Internet forum about mobs. I know someone who stood against a mob mentality. That was someone who deserves praise, even if no charges were ever filed against the child molester.

 

Rachel Denhollander. She stood against a mob. Simone Biles. Aly Raisman. The many, many woman whose names filled the front page of the Detroit Free Press. Those women praised this judge. And a poster dares to come here and chastise women for praising the judge. Dares to state disappointment in them. Like some disapproving dad chiding an errant child.

 

I had a father. And however awful he was in many other ways, he stood with his children when they said they wouldn't accept an abuser's presence in their lives. He didn't proclaim his disappointment because he focused on what was right, and good, and true. He was an advocate for children and girls and women. He didn't deflect. And he never told me or my siblings, "Yes... but..." 

 

People have agreed the judge's words were wrong.  People have disagreed with that interpretation. The point has been made.

 

Stop.

 

STOP.

 

S.T.O.P.

 

If you don't stop, you are not an advocate for children or girls or women. You aren't defending civilization,.you're obstructing an important conversation.  Put down your sword and shield, white knight. Forty posts ago, you became the problem. You became the deflection. You became the diversion from the harm done to 150+ women, the silence of thirty years, the willful blindness of multiple organizations.

 

Focus on the "yes" not the "but".

 

The thread title is focused on the "yes". A thread was created for the "but" and you chose to ignore it and then... and then... gaslighted the women here. Daring to tell them that they made the judge the focus of this thread, not you.

 

I keep asking myself why I'm so bothered by the bizarre turn this thread has taken and I realized today why. I've heard thirty years of "yes... but..." coincidentally as long as Nassar has been abusing children. I had someone say to my face, someone I love, "yes... but..." I was disgusted then and find it gross now. I can't believe it continues.

Edited January 28, 2018 by ErinE

[LucyStoner]

I know he’s a member of the community. And he is still a troll right here, right now. His behavior is inexcusable at this point.

 

He should be ashamed of himself. I am very disappointed in him.

 

(And I just fed the troll. GAAA. Don’t feed the troll!)

 

See sometimes, it can’t be helped.

[LucyStoner]

Are you charging me with sexism and male privilege for expecting a judge, who happens to be female, live up to her office?

 

Should we have double-standards?

 

Of course, you are free to your own opinion, which has nothing to do with being female.

 

There has been a great deal of sexism and gender-bashing in the thread. It is repugnant. And disappointing.

 

This judge's comments would have been no less (or no more) inappropriate had they come out of the mouth of a male judge.

 

Bill

My opinions actually are shaped by being raised as a girl and woman. Gender blind isn’t the antidote to sexism. You seem to take any mention of gender or sex to be sexist. Which is just not the case.

 

Sometimes Bill, you would serve your position better overall if you knew when to hold them. And fold them. And walk away.

[Spy Car]

"Yes... but..." "Yes... but..." The posts are only variations on this theme. Go back and read them. I tried to multiquote and discovered there's a limit to the forum's ability to do so.

The position all boils down to: "Yes Nassar is horrible, but the judge is a miserable failure, her actions were unacceptable, she deserves to lose her position and her career."

 

All the posts are a variation on "Yes... but..."

 

I've said that the judge's words were wrong. Others have done the same. The continued posts have forced me to come around to the idea that fundamentally, this is why abusers continue.  It's because people deflect from the real issue. It's to use a poster's own words, disappointing, though that word doesn't begin to capture the feeling that dwells in my heart and throttles the words I wish to pour out from my throat.

 

Not a single post without a single histrionic "yes... but..." Go back and read the posts. All of them. As someone who witnessed a truly brave person stand against family, people that proclaimed love and still turned a blind eye to evil, I say it's not bravery to lecture a group of women on an Internet forum about mobs. I know someone who stood against a mob mentality. That was someone who deserves praise, even if no charges were ever filed against the child molester.

 

Rachel Denhollander. She stood against a mob. Simone Biles. Aly Raisman. The many, many woman whose names filled the front page of the Detroit Free Press. Those women praised this judge. And a poster dares to come here and chastise women for praising the judge. Dares to state disappointment in them. Like some disapproving dad chiding an errant child.

 

I had a father. And however awful he was in many other ways, he stood with his children when they said they wouldn't accept an abuser's presence in their lives. He didn't proclaim his disappointment because he focused on what was right, and good, and true. He was an advocate for children and girls and women. He didn't deflect. And he never told me or my siblings, "Yes... but..." 

 

People have agreed the judge's words were wrong.  People have disagreed with that interpretation. The point has been made.

 

Stop.

 

STOP.

 

S.T.O.P.

 

If you don't stop, you are not an advocate for children or girls or women. You aren't defending civilization,.you're obstructing an important conversation.  Put down your sword and shield, white knight. Forty posts ago, you became the problem. You became the deflection. You became the diversion from the harm done to 150+ women, the silence of thirty years, the willful blindness of multiple organizations.

 

Focus on the "yes" not the "but".

 

The thread title is focused on the "yes". A thread was created for the "but" and you chose to ignore it and then... and then... gaslighted the women here. Daring to tell them that they made the judge the focus of this thread, not you.

 

I keep asking myself why I'm so bothered by the bizarre turn this thread has taken and I realized today why. I've heard thirty years of "yes... but..." coincidentally as long as Nassar has been abusing children. I had someone say to my face, someone I love, "yes... but..." I was disgusted then and find it gross now. I can't believe it continues.

 

The point has been made and the responses have been:

 

She didn't mean what she clearly said.

 

She was overwrought having heard such testimony, so she made a mistake. No big deal.

 

You are a troll and a sexist pig for expecting a judge to do her job with dignity and professionalism.

 

Much excuse making. Many really low personal attacks.

 

Very few individuals acknowledging how wrong the judge's action were on the bench.

 

We are on a bad path,

 

Bill

[LucyStoner]

this has also been weighing on me.

I don't think women are automatically saintly . . . . my grandmother- a WOMAN - was my abuser. my mother - a woman - enabled her. (my father committed suicide) I complained, I was told "she loves you". I was told "you need to chill out and stop over reacting". . . I was told to "be more understanding" - by my mother. I honestly though my brother would throttle me when he was b****ing about his 1st ex-wife, and I said "oh, she sounds like grandmother". (no surprise to me he married a woman like her - he was "the boy," and she coddled him.)

outsiders thought I was an angsty teen, and ignored. Many many years later, I was sharing a "roll my eyes moment" about her with a male family friend who is a marriage and family counselor. He was sputtering "but that's abuse . . . "

I had a really hard time learning to be able to even trust a woman, let alone think positive thoughts about them - because of the example of the WOMEN in my life.

 

 

eta: clarification

and despite the childhood molestation, the grooming by my brother's friend, the s3xually assault by a stranger in my own home - they all come short of the damage done to me by - A woman.

Of course not. Your grandmother and my grandmother should go bowling together. In hell, where they both belong.

 

The cycle of sexual abuse is perpetuated by many people who aren’t male.

[ErinE]

The point has been made and the responses have been:

 

She didn't mean what she clearly said.

 

She was overwrought having heard such testimony, so she made a mistake. No big deal.

 

You are a troll and a sexist pig for expecting a judge to do her job with dignity and professionalism.

 

Much excuse making. Many really low personal attacks.

 

Very few individuals acknowledging how wrong the judge's action were on the bench.

 

We are on a bad path,

 

Bill

 

 

No "Yes..." this time

 

Only "But..."

 

You are part of the problem

[Spy Car]

My opinions actually are shaped by being raised as a girl and woman. Gender blind isn’t the antidote to sexism. You seem to take any mention of gender or sex to be sexist. Which is just not the case.

 

Sometimes Bill, you would serve your position better overall if you knew when to hold them. And fold them. And walk away.

 

It is simply irrelevant whether the judge was male or female, or if those criticising her words are male or female.

 

It isn't relevant to whether such talk, that is to say rape is acceptable in some situations as a tool of vengeance.

 

It is not acceptable. It is not acceptable when the judge is female any more (or less) than were the judge male.

 

I did walk away. The personal attacks continued unabated.

 

People are defending the indefensible. And with no sense of irony that they are supporting the use of rape. Astonishing!

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

No "Yes..." this time

 

Only "But..."

 

You are part of the problem

 

No, I'm really not.

 

Some of us have integrity and don't fold when standards of right and wrong are clearly violated.

 

Others make excuses when it serves their interests.

 

Situational ethics and cowardice are how Larry Nasser got away with his abuse for so long.

 

Bill

[LucyStoner]

It is simply irrelevant whether the judge was male or female, or if those criticising her words are male or female.

 

It isn't relevant to whether such talk, that is to say rape is acceptable in some situations as a tool of vengeance.

 

It is not acceptable. It is not acceptable when the judge is female any more (or less) than were the judge male.

 

I did walk away. The personal attacks continued unabated.

 

People are defending the indefensible. And with no sense of irony that they are supporting the use of rape. Astonishing!

 

Bill

Are you seriously accusing me of “supporting the use of rape�

 

Irony much?

 

I would tack in all.the.smilies but I’m on my phone.

 

No one is supporting the use of rape. Some of us just don’t share your view that this is the death knell of the republic. Perspective taking: it’s a good thing.

[Spy Car]

Are you seriously accusing me of “supporting the use of rape�

 

Irony much?

 

I would tack in all.the.smilies but I’m on my phone.

 

No one is supporting the use of rape. Some of us just don’t share your view that this is the death knell of the republic. Perspective taking: it’s a good thing.

 

Those who excuse this judge are supporting vigilante justice and a judge who explicitly held that she would allow Nassar to be repeatedly raped just like he'd raped others, if she wasn't constrained by the Constitution.

 

That's serious stuff. Not a tiny mistake.

 

No irony. Rape is inexcusable in every scenario. The ironic position is those who find it OK that prisoners be threatened with rape by judges. Tha is ironic. And sad. And sickening, to be frank.

 

We have a criminal justice system, with judges in a paramount role to prevent vigilantism--not to be participants in it.

 

Those who support her words are supporting the use of rape as a tool of vengeance. She was plain as day about her position.

 

Bill

Edited January 28, 2018 by Spy Car

[gardenmom5]

Of course not. Your grandmother and my grandmother should go bowling together. In hell, where they both belong.

 

The cycle of sexual abuse is perpetuated by many people who aren’t male.

 

 

thanks.

 

I think it is also possible to wish nassar would understand the pain he has caused his victims - and not mean he should be r@ped in prison.  I wish he'd understand the pain he caused his victims - I believe it is the first step to being able to feel remorse.   (something I believe is necessary.   It is also something of which he seems incapable.

 

HOWEVER  - I do not wish for him to be/nor do I think if he were to be - r@ped in prison he would learn anything about what his victims feel.  because - he's a sociopath and it would be "all about him".  I'm 99.99999% positive - he wouldn't even give them a passing thought if he were to be.   so, not only would it be morally wrong (and descending to his level) to wish such a thing - it would be pointless - because he would make it all about him. 

 

he's such a victim  - he had to listen to his victims testimony for a week.  cry me a river.

I am very impressed with this judge - allowing every single girl to testify.  (I say girl - because they were "girls" when he did this to them.).  they each were able to speak as long as they needed.  I believe that to be empowering and healing for them.

 

I also wouldn't have a problem playing his victims testimony on a loop in his cell.

[Spy Car]

thanks.

 

I think it is also possible to wish nassar would understand the pain he has caused his victims - and not mean he should be r@ped in prison.  I wish he'd understand the pain he caused his victims - I believe it is the first step to being able to feel remorse.   (something I believe is necessary.   It is also something of which he seems incapable.

 

HOWEVER  - I do not wish for him to be/nor do I think if he were to be - r@ped in prison he would learn anything about what his victims feel.  because - he's a sociopath and it would be "all about him".  I'm 99.99999% positive - he wouldn't even give them a passing thought if he were to be.   so, not only would it be morally wrong (and descending to his level) to wish such a thing - it would be pointless - because he would make it all about him. 

 

he's such a victim  - he had to listen to his victims testimony for a week.  cry me a river.

I am very impressed with this judge - allowing every single girl to testify.  (I say girl - because they were "girls" when he did this to them.).  they each were able to speak as long as they needed.  I believe that to be empowering and healing for them.

 

I also wouldn't have a problem playing his victims testimony on a loop in his cell.

 

This has been a highly charged thread, and I hope you don't mind my saying that I'm sorry to read what you've gone through.

 

As to Nassar, he does seem like a sociopath and one of the few individuals who seems truly irredeemable. A person with no moral center.

 

Having him face his accusers was a good call. Not sure if any of it sunk in with him, but I hope with helps his victims in their healing process.

 

Best to you,

 

Bill