Do you personally know a "millenial snowflake"?

[LMD]

The bolded, though, is far from a millenial attitude. It was practically standard for most men of my father’s generation, who posited that they had no obligation to do any “women’s workâ€.

I get what you're saying but this was a very different dynamic, that I didn't really describe very well. I knew the couple very well and he really wasn't a misogynist, he adoes his wife and kids, he was just... useless for a long time. A kind of learned helplessness mixed with the 90s apathy maybe?

[Crimson Wife]

They'd like a chance to start at the bottom and work their way up! Instead, they graduate from college and are shunted into retail, temp work, and unpaid internships - all that with a huge load of debt as well, and more expenses than their parents and grandparents. It's not "entitlement" to think you ought to be given a chance to succeed in the same way previous generations were.

 

My very first job out of college was a temporary office manager job that was basically a glorified receptionist. It paid $1 more per hour than the then-minimum wage. I didn't think it was "beneath" me to work this simply because I had a bachelor's. I used it as a "foot in the door" and did a good job so that I could use the reference in order to land a permanent position at a different company that paid $5 more per hour and had promotion potential. Worked hard & earned my promotion, then a few years later switched employers and took a job paying almost double.

 

I didn't waltz through the door as a brand-new 22 y.o. graduate thinking that I deserved the job that I got at 26 after I'd had several years of experience to prove myself.

[HomeAgain]

Millenials are classified as kids born after 82 and before 1998-1999, so they're all adults.  My oldest is a Gen Z, I think they're called, or the iGeneration.

 

I can't say I know any young adults who act like snowflakes.  The amount of older people I know in that category is every growing, though.  As generations become set in their ways I'm seeing seriously disturbing things come out of the over-60 crowd.

[Sandwalker]

I haven't read the whole thread.

 

I don't really know what age range constitutes millenials. I don't care.

 

I've found there's a lot of ignorance about what age range constitutes the boomers. Too many people think boomers are all retired folks now, living the good life. They're clueless that the younger boomers are still in the trenches, raising kids or trying to help them with college expenses, taking care of elderly parents (and sometimes their grandkids, too!) and were hurt more--because they're much closer to retirement--by the last economic crisis than younger people.

 

I do not like stereotyping or generalizing about huge numbers of people. It's rarely/never accurate on the whole. That said, cultural norms do change over time. On the whole they're usually not good or bad. Just different.

This. ^ I am a late baby boomer, have 2 millennial offspring, and I worked my butt off homeschooling them, working nights, and taking care of my disabled husband. We weren't all at the malls buying designer purses on the future dime of the millennials.

[Sandwalker]

"Anymore"?

 

It never has. Ever.

It did in the 1950s and 60s. And many without a college education were able to support a wife and several kids well on one salary.

[bettyandbob]

Entitlement sometimes doesn't come from parents. I think entitlement happens in every generation.

 

IME there was an attitude that getting a degree was a guarantee of a job and stable life. I graduated college mid 80s. I didn't know anyone who didn't get a job. I got an offer everywhere I applied. Some people didn't get great jobs. No one had fast food jobs. I know some people who did wait tables, but that was because they worked at high end restaurants and made more in tips than jobs they got offered with degrees.

 

And college was cheap. I had my first baby within a decade of college graduation and noticed then the cost of college had gone up significantly. It was frightening to me back then. I had friends who told me college costs were the kids' responsibility because they were still thinking that lifeguarding had paid for their degree.

 

Millennials I see are working. Often part time because that is all they can find. I know millennials who work three jobs at a time. Many have degrees and are starting part time at an entry level that requires no degree. I can see a little resentment in that situation. However they begin working their way up and get the promotions because they do have the degree and have proven they will work.

[Crimson Wife]

I know quite a few but also some really great ones too. Overall, as a cohort though, I do see less grit and perseverance. My sons, who are millenials themselves but have a Gen x attitude, complain constantly about their millenial subordinates at work. It wasn't something they saw until they had to supervise them and manage them on a team. They gripe about it alot. They both much prefer their Gen X and Boomer team members in general. Their complaints have been not working very hard, not showing up for shifts, not calling in, showing up late, not wanting to do certain aspects of their job, crying at work when things don't go their way or if they receive constructive feedback, quitting without notice often times after getting constructive feedback, and so forth. However, they have both said when they do find a golden millenial in their recruits that person is hands down the best with innovation, creativity, willingness to learn new things and so forth.

 

Yes, this. It used to be understood that when you're young and inexperienced, you will start at the bottom doing "grunt" work so that you can prove yourself and move up. If you want to get paid what you know you're actually worth, it was on YOU to work hard and show everyone else that you can handle the responsibilities of a better-paying position. Nobody's going to just hand it to you on a silver platter like many Millennials seem to believe should happen.

 

[Guest]

I get what you're saying but this was a very different dynamic, that I didn't really describe very well. I knew the couple very well and he really wasn't a misogynist, he adoes his wife and kids, he was just... useless for a long time. A kind of learned helplessness mixed with the 90s apathy maybe?

Okay, but let’s not forget couples behave in tandem. So what SHE chooses to do will either curb or reinforce what HE chooses to do.

 

If my DH had said, “You need to get back to work; it’s been 3 weeks. What’s your problem?†I would have told him to go pound sand. (I’d also like to think I would not have married someone with lazy tendencies to begin with, but that’s another subject.) So, if his parents originally gave him the idea that he was the bright and shining center of the universe, well, that was sucky, but if his wife behaves in ways that allow him to keep his head up his ass, then she’s going to get what she gets.

 

I was just having a great, very funny conversation with a friend who drew a line in the sand on always being the dish washer in the household; she and her DH are in their 50s and the kids are out of the nest. So she got in a stand off with the husband over washing the dishes that lasted until ALL the dishes were dirty; the last thing left to eat with and on was a turkey platter and a big meat fork. But she held out because she works outside the home too and said NO; NO, I am not going to work a FT professional job to come home and buy all the groceries, cook all the meals, do all the laundry, wash all the dishes TOO.

 

He finally washed the dishes. She said it took him hours. After that, they divided the domestic load much more equitably. They are wonderful people, BTW; I love him and I love her. They have been great parents and great friends to us and are good, decent folks. He’s not a misogynistic turd. But he had a blind spot and she...umm, revealed it to him.

[Bluegoat]

I don't think i's inaccurate to see that cohorts tend to share certain traits, FWIW - you just have to remember that it will look different in individuals.  But even those who don't fit the generalization are often affected by the fact that it describes things about the people they grew up with.

 

Lots of boomers were really affected by growing up in the sexual revolution.  Those who lived through the World Wars had particular sets of ideas and experiences.  The same for the depression.  There is a character that is different in the period between the wars.

 

You can see this often in literature and art, so it must be part of the people themselves.

 

I think when we look back the biggest shared experience of young people may be those who grew up after social media will have a different way of relating to things.

[momacacia]

The video is spot on. 😂 And pretty much how I feel on the topic. I see the Boomers and think "Sheesh! What a mess!" And realize they were raised by "the Greatest Generation." Show me your kids and we'll talk how great you are.

 

Signed, Gen Xer

[LMD]

Okay, but let’s not forget couples behave in tandem. So what SHE chooses to do will either curb or reinforce what HE chooses to do.

 

If my DH had said, “You need to get back to work; it’s been 3 weeks. What’s your problem?†I would have told him to go pound sand. (I’d also like to think I would not have married someone with lazy tendencies to begin with, but that’s another subject.) So, if his parents originally gave him the idea that he was the bright and shining center of the universe, well, that was sucky, but if his wife behaves in ways that allow him to keep his head up his ass, then she’s going to get what she gets.

 

I was just having a great, very funny conversation with a friend who drew a line in the sand on always being the dish washer in the household; she and her DH are in their 50s and the kids are out of the nest. So she got in a stand off with the husband over washing the dishes that lasted until ALL the dishes were dirty; the last thing left to eat with and on was a turkey platter and a big meat fork. But she held out because she works outside the home too and said NO; NO, I am not going to work a FT professional job to come home and buy all the groceries, cook all the meals, do all the laundry, wash all the dishes TOO.

 

He finally washed the dishes. She said it took him hours. After that, they divided the domestic load much more equitably. They are wonderful people, BTW; I love him and I love her. They have been great parents and great friends to us and are good, decent folks. He’s not a misogynistic turd. But he had a blind spot and she...umm, revealed it to him.

☺

Yes, of course there were issues on both sides of their relationship (and mine!) Her issues just didn't present in a typical millenial snowflake way - though come to think of it, he would be right on the x/millenial cusp!

 

Anyway, that was just one example. I have seen this assumption in some millenials that they can be supported by their parents/other adults indefinitely in a weird dynamic because, life is hard and they're afraid to try. Obviously not all millenials (hello! I'm a millenial myself!)

 

Maybe I'm just cranky today, highly probable...

[SKL]

When I was young, I wanted very much to change the world.  I was very very passionate about certain things.  I started working on that change when I was a teen.  But my idea of changing the world was not making a big noise.  It was doing something about it with my own hands and talents and showing people what works.  I chose my educational path with a view to helping people and innovating ideas that would work in practice.  I still expected to have to interview many companies before landing a job that would pay my bills, and then work long hours and learn new things every hour to build my resume for the next better job.  (I graduated high school in the year when unemployment peaked at the highest level since the Great Depression, and unemployment has been above today's levels for the vast majority of my adult life.  I never felt entitled to a job, let alone any perqs you traditionally get with a good job.)

 

So I don't agree that today's kids are more idealistic.  I think they express their idealism differently.

 

A few years go a popular song was "We're just waiting on the world to change."  This was a huge turnoff to me.  There is nothing we had as kids that these kids / young adults don't have, but we weren't waiting on the world to change, we (at least those who cared) were doing stuff to help make an actual difference.  Personally I don't feel that screaming on a college campus does that, but that's just my opinion.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SKL

[Mergath]

ETA: One thing, however, is backed by data: young people seem to be more prone to depression than in the past. The percentage of college students who admit to suicidal thoughts is much higher than it used to be, as my counselor colleagues tell me with concern. This is likely a combination of high perceived pressure and possibly less resilience because difficulties have been kept away from these kids, but nobody has clear answers. It's also not exactly what the op asked about.

 

But is depression actually more common, or is it just more acceptable to admit it now?

 

[leeannpal]

As a university professor, I have encountered quite a few.  

 

I've been a high school teacher for quite a few years, and, I have to say, the entitled attitude of students is getting worse every year. 

[Carrie12345]

My very first job out of college was a temporary office manager job that was basically a glorified receptionist. It paid $1 more per hour than the then-minimum wage. I didn't think it was "beneath" me to work this simply because I had a bachelor's. I used it as a "foot in the door" and did a good job so that I could use the reference in order to land a permanent position at a different company that paid $5 more per hour and had promotion potential. Worked hard & earned my promotion, then a few years later switched employers and took a job paying almost double.

 

I didn't waltz through the door as a brand-new 22 y.o. graduate thinking that I deserved the job that I got at 26 after I'd had several years of experience to prove myself.

 

A dollar over minimum wage went a lot longer "back in the day" than it does today.  In 1998, I was making ends meet with a dual barely-above-minimum income and raising a baby.  (Granted, that was with an opposite shift schedule that avoided daycare expenses.)  The minimum wage hasn't kept up with 20 years of inflation.  And the increases in health care and student loans are a whole other level.

[Mergath]

My very first job out of college was a temporary office manager job that was basically a glorified receptionist. It paid $1 more per hour than the then-minimum wage. I didn't think it was "beneath" me to work this simply because I had a bachelor's. I used it as a "foot in the door" and did a good job so that I could use the reference in order to land a permanent position at a different company that paid $5 more per hour and had promotion potential. Worked hard & earned my promotion, then a few years later switched employers and took a job paying almost double.

 

I didn't waltz through the door as a brand-new 22 y.o. graduate thinking that I deserved the job that I got at 26 after I'd had several years of experience to prove myself.

 

There's a huge difference in what a minimum wage income could purchase back then compared to what it can purchase now. The minimum wage has not kept up with the cost of living.

 

It's like older people who can't understand why Millennials are upset over student loan debt because back in the day, they worked their way through college, darn it. Yeah, when college was a few hundred bucks a year, you could work a part time job over the summer to pay for it.  Not so much now.

 

[SKL]

And speaking of young people making an actual difference vs. protesting on campus or "waiting on the world to change" - the feeling of actually tangibly helping something or fixing something, however small, is a great way to prevent or reduce depression/anxiety in young people.  This is one reason why I feel it's a mistake to steer young people away from hands-on work in favor of "focusing on their education" or "letting them be kids."  The opportunities for young people to do unskilled work (paid or volunteer) have for various reasons decreased severely, and I don't see any movement to change that.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SKL

[regentrude]

But is depression actually more common, or is it just more acceptable to admit it now?

 

 

It certainly is more acceptable to admit it, but that does not explain the actual suicide numbers.

 

"3X: The suicide rate among young adults, ages 15-24, has tripled since the 1950s and Suicide is currently the 2nd most common cause of death among college students."

 

http://www.collegedegreesearch.net/student-suicides/

[MedicMom]

Yes. I don’t know that it really has much to do with millennial or snowflake, but that a lot of people I know grew up being told how amazing and special they were and have carried over an entitled attitude to the workplace. I suspect it’s a combination of growing up in a fairly financially stable time, the growth of the self esteem movement, and prolonged financial and emotional dependence on parents. I work with several people in their mid-20s who seriously have no sense about them because they know mommy and daddy will bail them out. One coworker is burning through close to $60,000 a year on cars and concert tickets and alcohol, because his parents still pay his rent, health insurance, and some of his food. He carries that entitlement attitude over to work and has no idea how to behave in a workplace. He’s 24. Knowing his family, i think his parents felt so guilty over their divorce when he was a child that they swung the pendulum too far the other way and over-doted on the kid. Another coworker is 25. She just filed for her third divorce. She has three kids under 8, one of which is an infant. Between child support and her income, she’s making decent money. Yet her mother just signed for a brand new 2018 Suburban for her, because coworker “feels bad about the divorce and needs something to cheer her upâ€(never mind that the break up all of three marriages was due to infidelity on her part). Mommy also watches the kids every night my coworker isn’t working so she can go out and party(and puts it all on Facebook) most of the night. Her mother does this because she feels bad that her daughter was a teen mom and “needs to have fun.â€

 

I see a lot of young adults who are really struggling with making adult decisions and dealing with world views and ideas/ideals that are very different than their own. I also think the economy sucks and that encourages prolonged dependence on parents, especially when coupled with the ridiculousness of health insurance and college debt.

 

I don’t think this is snowflake syndrome. I think there is a cohort of kids whose affluent parents over-compensated with a lot of financial subsidies, toys, and praise instead of pushing responsibility and grown up choices. I also think you’ll find this in any age group, but due to cultural circumstances there are more in the Millenial cohort than ever before.

Edited November 20, 2017 by MedicMom

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

My very first job out of college was a temporary office manager job that was basically a glorified receptionist. It paid $1 more per hour than the then-minimum wage. I didn't think it was "beneath" me to work this simply because I had a bachelor's. I used it as a "foot in the door" and did a good job so that I could use the reference in order to land a permanent position at a different company that paid $5 more per hour and had promotion potential. Worked hard & earned my promotion, then a few years later switched employers and took a job paying almost double.

 

I didn't waltz through the door as a brand-new 22 y.o. graduate thinking that I deserved the job that I got at 26 after I'd had several years of experience to prove myself.

 

Except that what you're describing was absolutely the mindset of my Gen X college classmates, and many expected to and did walk out of college with good, high-paying, non-ground-floor-level jobs. So this attitude isn't limited to Millennials in any way. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Scarlett]

I don’t think this is snowflake syndrome. I think there is a cohort of kids whose affluent parents over-compensated with a lot of financial subsidies, toys, and praise instead of pushing responsibility and grown up choices. I also think you’ll find this in any age group, but due to cultural circumstances there are more in the Millenial cohort than ever before.

I don't know any snowflakes among my friends or their kids. I had to Google both Millenials and Snowflake because I was not exactly clear on the definitions.

 

However what you described above is how my sisters kids are. She has bought them so much stuff and they get their way so much of the time they have really turned into entitled brats. My sister is on her 4th marriage and she tries so hard to have a happy family....and she has just gone overboard on the coddling.

[creekland]

I know quite a few who fit the description, but they certainly aren't limited to a generation.

 

On a different note, if the youngsters among us demand change that is for the better, kudos to them!  Quite a bit has changed in my lifetime with education and expectations.  Some of that change (like different learning styles fitting different students to help them better succeed) is good.  I also don't think anyone should have to be a workaholic just to meet their basic needs or because it's in the job description.

 

But when someone is just a slacker - doing nothing and expecting to pass or have the bills paid anyway - then they need to get with the program called "life."  That personality goes beyond any one specific generation.

[Butter]

Aside from my own children, I have fairly close contact with a lot of millennials and I have been amazed by their passion and resilience.   As I look at the challenges they are facing, I have realized how much steeper a path they have to climb than I did at similar ages... and how much harder they are working.  (Not that my husband or I were slackers, but we didn't have to push so hard just to meet our survival needs.)

 

They are often more outspoken than my generation tended to be, and not just for themselves, and I value that enormously.

 

I have encountered a lot of fragile, entitled middle-aged folks who are afraid of losing the world they know and are kicking down at those trying to climb up to some measure of stability... but I have yet to see the stereotype you're describing.

 

ETA: just to be clear, my millennial children are also resilient & hard working!

 

Literally... this.  I could've written this myself.  Every word.  I am incredibly impressed by the Millenials I know.

 

I honestly only know one person I would even categorize as a snowflake.  He is my cousin.  And he is nearly 80.

[Bootsie]

I have not seen this play out so much in being whiney in a lazy, complaining way.  I find many of my college students to be hardworking young people.  I have seen a trend to them being much more caring and accepting toward each other.  They care deeply about particular global issues.  

 

What I see in not so much a sense of entitlement in that things should be handed to them, but an attitude that an exception should be made for them.  An example is that this semester I have the very last final exam slot on the Friday afternoon of final exam week (as set by the registrar); My other class has its final on Monday.  Anticipating that I would have a number of students assigned to the Friday exam wanting to take it early and realizing that I have 59 students in a 59 seat class and would not be able to accommodate extras, I even stated in the syllabus that students would not be able to change the exam date; I have explained this in class several times.  I posted this on the course webpage.  This past week my inbox is full of "I know you said that it would be impossible for anyone to take the exam on Monday, but I have a special situation...."  

 

I don't think this need for exceptions all of the time is driven by a selfish or lazy attitude.  My sense is that they have grown up with a lot of expectations of perfection.  They need to have over a 4.0 GPA, for example.  Any time that there is something that gets in the way of perfection, there needs to be a way to make the event "not count"  If they do poorly (not making an A) on a test the solution is drop the class, get the teacher to let you retake the test, ask for extra credit.

 

I have also seen a huge increase in anxiety.  I find it a bit concerning regarding not only how much anxiety is being displayed but how much they identify with that being a label for their generation.  Lil Peep, one of the music artists of this age group, who died of a Xanax overdose last week had been dubbed "The Voice of an Anxious Generation."

[Lady Florida.]

Well, I’m a Millenial as are most of my friends and I wouldn’t say I know any snowflakes. I do know most of our Boomer parents don’t understand us and think we are whiney. Just had a convo with mine about how my generation thinks it’s entitled to healthcare. Well, if that makes us snowflakes I guess we are. But our Boomer parents don’t see how jobs and cost of living have changed. They just see us as entitled when we are upset that a college education and a 40 hour job doesn’t always land you a house and stable life anymore. That’s my experience anyway.

 

I dislike generalization of boomers just as much as generalization of milennials or any other generation. My friends and I are all boomers and I don't know a single one who thinks milennials are snowflakes. We all understand how difficult it is for young people today. We know it's very different from when we were starting out and we know it's much harder (near impossible in some cases). Does that mean all Boomers are understanding? Of course not. That's just as ridiculous as saying all Boomers are clueless as to what milennials face.

 

 

 

I've found there's a lot of ignorance about what age range constitutes the boomers. Too many people think boomers are all retired folks now, living the good life. They're clueless that the younger boomers are still in the trenches, raising kids or trying to help them with college expenses, taking care of elderly parents (and sometimes their grandkids, too!) and were hurt more--because they're much closer to retirement--by the last economic crisis than younger people.

 

 

 

^^This^^ Dh is still working and will probably continue for 5-7 years even though he reaches retirement age next year. If I hadn't stayed home to homeschool ds I would still be working. I wasn't going to go back to teaching after being out of the field for nearly 20 years, but I don't sit around eating bon bons either. I volunteer. We have a milennial in college and a Gen-Xer going back to college (while raising 2 kids with his wife who is also continuing her education). We're helping both with those expenses. Dang. We're so selfish, us boomers.

 

It did in the 1950s and 60s. And many without a college education were able to support a wife and several kids well on one salary.

 

It did for some. As someone born in the mid-50s and who grew up in the 60s, it was not always true. It was most definitely easier than it is today but again, assuming it was easy for all is another generalization.

 

 

I get so frustrated at generation bashing. 

 

-Anyone ever heard of The Lost Generation? Not all of them were traumatized by WWI but they were lumped in together as a generation that was aimless. 

 

-The Greatest Generation? Yeah. They fought for freedom but only freedom for some. They're also the generation that fought to save segregation, that considered wife and child beating to be a personal matter and no one's business, and they did their best to keep women down. They begat and raised boomers.

 

-Baby Boomers? We screwed up the economy but we also fought for civil rights. We raised GenXers and milennials.

 

-GenX was called a selfish entitled generation (the term snowflake wasn't used then but if it had they would have been given that designation too). The generalization of them now is that they blame boomers for all their problems. Many of you are GenXers and you don't seem selfish and entitled.

 

-And now milennials get trashed. Maybe they'll be the generation that breaks the cycle of generation bashing but I doubt it. It's as old as humankind.

 

"The world is passing through troubled times. Young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them." ~Peter the Hermit, 1274 (from a sermon)

 

"Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt." ~Horace, circa 20 BCE

 

We're worried about electronics ruining young people and making them sedentary? We should be worried about chess.

 

"A pernicious excitement to learn and play chess has spread all over the country, and numerous clubs for practicing this game have been formed in cities and villages...chess is a mere amusement of a very inferior character, which robs the mind of valuable time that might be devoted to nobler acquirements (sic), while it affords no benefit whatever to the body. Chess has acquired a high reputation as a means to discipline the mind, but persons engaged in sedentary occupations should never practice this cheerless game; they require outdoor exercises -- not this sort of mental gladiatorship" ~from a Scientific American article 1859

 

Is text speak a problem? Have grammar and spelling gone out the window? Is proper English becoming obsolete?

 

"The total neglect of this art [speaking] has been productive of the worst consequences...in the conduct of all affairs ecclesiastical and civil, in church, in parliament, courts of justice...the wretched state of elocution is apparent to persons of any discernment and taste...if something is not done to stop this growing evil...English is likely to become a mere jargon. which everyone may pronounce as he pleases. ~from the preface to A General Dictionary of the English Language, 1780.

 

 

I didn't link to the most famous one attributed to either Aristotle or Plato (depending on who is using the quote) because neither one actually said it. However, they did complain about the younger generation in their writings. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/

 

My point is it's of no benefit to complain about the younger generation.

 

The kids are alright. ~Pete Townsend, 1965

Edited November 20, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[trulycrabby]

No, all the millennials I know are extremely hard-working, motivated adults.

[SKL]

 

 

It did for some. As someone born in the mid-50s and who grew up in the 60s, it was not always true. It was most definitely easier than it is today but again, assuming it was easy for all is another generalization.

 

 

 

I am not sure it was "easier" as much as that the definition of a good life was a lot different.  Things people believe they "need" in order to have a comfortable life just can't compare.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I can't think of a lot of people I know in that age range they speak of, but the one I do know...  very hard working/responsible, but very liberal and will rant and whine about a lot of politics.  I don't remember being so angry/vocal about my opinions regarding politics at that age.  I didn't have the social media outlet either, so perhaps I was just as angry/vocal but only dumped on family?  This person did complain about lack of jobs after college...but had a unique degree that I couldn't name one job that would naturally fit with it.  LOL

 

Anyway, I haven't seen the whiny people the news portrays.  I see a lot of people in that age group in my area forging a different life than my generation chose to seek out.  They work multiple jobs to have more personal freedom, but it gives lack of stability.  The multiple sources of income helps when one job goes away unlike our family where the 1 income is vitally important.  They go do the things they want to do in their spare time.  They seem happy.  I just don't hear complaining from that group in particular.  I'm sure these people exist for studies to show x or y results, but you can manipulate studies and results. 

 

[Tap]

No.  The millennials I know are hard working and too broke to fell privileged in any way. 

 

I work in pharmacy with millennials who have several hundred thousand in student loans and have doctorate degrees.  They definitely didn't get that far through college and end up feeling special. Maybe they went into college feeling unique because they were valedictorian of their high school, were an athlete or had some undergrad scholarships.  But by the time they got into pharmacy school, they were just one of 100 others who had the same accomplishments and now they were just one of the crowd.

 

My own kids and their friends are hard working, and see the world through pretty clear eyes.  They know they are unique due to their own skill sets, but also have their own struggles to go along with it.  They are smart and athletic, but have never been the 'chosen one' or the absolute top performer in anything they have done. They have always made it to the middle of the top group of whatever they tried and were happy to be there.  

 

 

I was a teen of the 80-90s and honestly, I had it a lot better than my own kids do.  Everything was wayyyy cheaper and there was less of a need for everyone to have a college degree. There were travel or 'select' sports teams, but it was also OK to just play normal school sports.  Schools had more money and provided more programs that everyone could participate in for free or low cost.  Now more programs are cut, so the kids who want to participate have to pay large sums of money to do so.  That creates division of class and makes the 'have and have nots' more obvious.  To me, that is part of what feeds the special snowflake's personality. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Tap

[HS Mom in NC]

I know someone who is raising their child to be a snowflake.  I know her personally so I've heard it from her own mouth to some degree, but I also know 2 of her SILs well and I get to hear it from them too. She's in her mid 30s.  Her son (about 12) goes to ps.  The mom has strict orders with the school that if he experiences any stress of any kind at any time he's to call her and she immediately picks him up and takes him home. She picks him up a lot. The school seems to go along with it because it's easier than arguing with her. She should obviously homeschool, but doesn't want to.  So she constantly calls wanting exceptions and extensions for him and telling the school how to do things. 

The mom protects the kid from every perceived stress and she's imagined a few too.  The dad seems upset by it but at a loss for what to do.   She's convinced he has some sort of dietary restrictions (I forget which ones) even though there hasn't been any medical testing to confirm any of it.  She expects her in-laws to create a near identical alternative to all the food (the father is one of 6 siblings who are all local and all have more than 3 kids) at every gathering.  If there are cupcakes everyone can eat then there should be cupcakes of the same flavor for him.  And, of course, she's not the one to make the alternative cupcakes.  And then there are the other foods he can't eat that she expects other people to make alternatives for. 

One SIL on occasion has matter of factly told the mom the truth and pointed out the consequences of the mom's parenting choices, but it's fallen on deaf ears.  The other SIL would never say anything.  That kid is emotionally a toddler/preschooler and his little sister (young elementary aged)  is a tyrant. Lots of toddler behavior from her.

 

[SKL]

Along these lines, I recently saw a news story about an uproar when a prof in the UK said that if students in his class wanted to pass, they would need to work hard and not drink their free time away.  Honestly I could not understand what was outrageous about that.  It sounds like something my profs would have said back in the 1980s.  But apparently nowadays saying that kind of thing causes too much anxiety etc.

[freesia]

You can't blame us for thinking that a college degree and six figures of debt should land us a job that will pay for at least basic housing and food, given that it's what we've all been told our entire lives. Everything for Millennials has been about getting into college in order to get a good job. We were told from preschool that with a bachelor's degree, the world would be our oyster. With a college education, you can do anything! Then the financial collapse happened, everything went to hell in a handbasket, and now we have Ivy-educated lawyers working as barristas. I don't think it means that a person has "entitlement attitude issues" for them to be upset to find out that everything they've been promised, everything they worked for, and everything previous generations had is essentially gone.

 

Well, except, Genxers didn't have that.   My Dad grew up in the depression, so his parents generation didn't have this.

 

I didn't here basic housing mentioned--I think "buy a house" is what was mentioned.  For most generations buying a house was something that didn't happen right away.  Couples or singles lived with parents or in rentals.  Dh and I were 36 and 33 before we were able to buy a house.  We rented before then.  Both of us shared houses with 3 or 4 people in our early twenties to pay off our debt. My first job as a teacher in the 90s paid $23,000 in a major East Coast city--so not much more than a barista in a HCOL area.    We were also told we could do anything, but also taught that it wouldn't happen immediately.

 

OP, I don't actually know any millenial snowflakes.  I know snowflakes in all generations.  I also think parents of means have helped out their kids more or less in all generations.  The only thing I've noticed lately in young moms is less of a willingness to listen or learn from those older than them. There is a confidence which is enviable, but it is frustrating to see someone take over a group (like a homeschool group) and think she knows it all and how to run things and won't listen to anyone who's been in the group for a while.  Particularly if she has kids 5 and under.  There is no sense of assessing the politics of the situation before proceeding.  Maybe it will work out well, but it certainly does not motivate those of us who have more experience to do anything bc our help does not seem to be wanted or valued.  I see this with young moms in the nursery, too--less of a desire to tap into wisdom.  but, who knows, maybe I came off this way, too.

[6packofun]

Since Millenial snowflakes (in my experience) are raised by Whatever-generation snowflakes. I don’t think that they grow in a vacuum.

 

 

 

I totally agree.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, except, Genxers didn't have that.   My Dad grew up in the depression, so his parents generation didn't have this.

 

I didn't here basic housing mentioned--I think "buy a house" is what was mentioned.  For most generations buying a house was something that didn't happen right away.  Couples or singles lived with parents or in rentals.  Dh and I were 36 and 33 before we were able to buy a house.  We rented before then.  Both of us shared houses with 3 or 4 people in our early twenties to pay off our debt. My first job as a teacher in the 90s paid $23,000 in a major East Coast city--so not much more than a barista in a HCOL area.    We were also told we could do anything, but also taught that it wouldn't happen immediately.

 

OP, I don't actually know any millenial snowflakes.  I know snowflakes in all generations.  I also think parents of means have helped out their kids more or less in all generations.  The only thing I've noticed lately in young moms is less of a willingness to listen or learn from those older than them. There is a confidence which is enviable, but it is frustrating to see someone take over a group (like a homeschool group) and think she knows it all and how to run things and won't listen to anyone who's been in the group for a while.  Particularly if she has kids 5 and under.  There is no sense of assessing the politics of the situation before proceeding.  Maybe it will work out well, but it certainly does not motivate those of us who have more experience to do anything bc our help does not seem to be wanted or valued.  I see this with young moms in the nursery, too--less of a desire to tap into wisdom.  but, who knows, maybe I came off this way, too.

 

I'm at the tail end of the boomers and all my siblings are boomers.  None of us five were able to buy a house right away.  Many of us lived in rentals or shared with others at first and then eventually were able to buy a house later - often after we already had a child or two.  And when we did buy a house the houses were much smaller homes than the McMansions built now.  We were not abnormal in that regard.  I agree that we had to wait for things.  I really do not understand where this "I should be able to get these things right now" idea came from.  Though I won't blame it on the Millenials that I know.  They understand that these things will come with time.  BTW - Millenials are the largest group of home buyers now so I wouldn't feel too sorry for them being deprived.  https://www.nbcnews.com/business/real-estate/who-s-powering-housing-market-surprise-it-s-millennials-n768196

 

 

[Mergath]

Well, except, Genxers didn't have that.   My Dad grew up in the depression, so his parents generation didn't have this.

 

I didn't here basic housing mentioned--I think "buy a house" is what was mentioned.  For most generations buying a house was something that didn't happen right away.  Couples or singles lived with parents or in rentals.  Dh and I were 36 and 33 before we were able to buy a house.  We rented before then.  Both of us shared houses with 3 or 4 people in our early twenties to pay off our debt. My first job as a teacher in the 90s paid $23,000 in a major East Coast city--so not much more than a barista in a HCOL area.    We were also told we could do anything, but also taught that it wouldn't happen immediately.

 

The ones I know did. But that may be because the Gen Xers I know were born more toward the end of the generation. The pressure to go to college and get a degree has been increasing over the years.

 

And it isn't just one factor that's making things harder for Millennials. It's a perfect storm of changes. Relative buying power is far less, health insurance premiums and medical costs are drastically more, it's exponentially harder to get credit to buy things like a house, and college tuition costs have gone through the roof. Plus the government now seems determined to let predatory student loan lenders screw people even harder with interest and fees.

[MotherGoose]

The bolded, though, is far from a millenial attitude. It was practically standard for most men of my father’s generation, who posited that they had no obligation to do any “women’s workâ€.

But I think the bigger issue was that he didn't want to work full time. He just wanted a part time job so his wife had to go back to work to earn money, AND he wouldn't do women's work.

[bettyandbob]

I don't know millennials who think they should be able to buy a house right away.

 

It's more of knowing they won't be buying any house. They aren't thinking about McMansions. They know the starter homes of my generation are beyond reach. They can't save until student loans are paid. Student loans used to be set to be paid in 10 years. Now they can take much longer.

 

I think the complaint about not buying a house is valid because many will be able to buy any home ever.

[MotherGoose]

In general, I don't think going into debt of hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans is ever a good idea except perhaps to become a doctor. And then if you can't afford an Ivy League medical degree without debt, get one from a state school. You can still be a doctor. I have a Masters degree in Social work, for example. When I was looking at programs, I saw one at Harvard. (I'm gen x). I knew that even if I had a Harvard degree, I would never make enough money to justify that expense. So I got one at state school and it was fine. Yes not getting loans like that does keep the private schools full of rich, or else super elite smart who get scholarships. But if the other option is crippling debt for the rest of your life, the choice should be clear. I do believe that schools, culture, and student loan agencies do a good job of encouraging people to go into crazy debt, and what seventeen year old can actually fathom what they are signing up for? My parents just told me going into debt was not an option, that I would go where we could afford it. If I hadn't been able to get a scholarship, I might have gone to a tech school for the first couple of years. I don't know. Work my way through. That's what I would suggest to people now. A friend paid his way through college by working nights, full time, at a grocery store. He probably had some debt too, but nothing crazy. He had a very minimal lifestyle, numerous roommates, etc. I don't know all the ins and outs of the details.

[SKL]

Student loan interest was 12% when I graduated and started my full-time career, so I don't really think that is worse now either.  And going without health insurance while young and in unstable employment was absolutely the norm.

 

Over the years there have been different incentives to do things like buy a first house.  My folks bought one for $9,000 around 1965.  It is still standing, so I can see how tiny it is.  It is literally about the size of one of our current bedrooms.  It was furnished with old hand-me-down furniture and my mom made the curtains etc. with her hands.  Our clothes were also hand-me-downs or handmade out of scraps.  My folks shared one egg for breakfast.  This was my mom's idea of a great life; they lived there until kid #4 was conceived.

 

There are comparable options out there today for comparable investment, but are today's young adults likely to consider that the home of their dreams?

[SKL]

The ability to buy a house may be regional, and it depends more on income than age.  Where I live, anyone who intends to stay put and stay employed for some years can find an affordable house if that is what they want.

 

The millennials I know are on the younger side, just finishing college and launching their careers, so we'll see how long it takes them to buy a house.  What is the hurry?  I bought one-third of a house when I was 28.  I still only own one-third of said house, and I have no plans to ever buy "my own house."  It is good enough for me.

 

And speaking of "good enough for me," similar goes for education.  I did my undergrad at the cheapest option.  My brother asked me to "lend" his family tens of thousands of dollars so his daughter could go somewhere better, since apparently my education wasn't "good enough" for his daughter.  Well excuse me.  Someone needs to get over herself.  There are affordable options in most places.  Those of us who weren't born with a silver spoon get to make the most of what is available to us.  Back in the "good old days" when "a college degree guaranteed a good job," my uncle lived on the street while attending podiatry school, after which he joined the military so he could pay off the cost.  Yes, today he has a house and a practice.  It doesn't mean he came by it easily.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SKL

[hornblower]

You know how I posted that boomer won't admit how good they had it?  It's really inevitable. 

They won't admit the numbers, won't admit how much inflation has eaten into purchasing power, will always find someone 'back then' who had it hard, blabla.

"In fact, in real terms the average wage peaked more than 40 years ago: The $4.03-an-hour rate recorded in January 1973 has the same purchasing power as $22.41 would today."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

50 years ago, the largest employer was General Motors, where workers earned an equivalent of $50 per hour (in today's money). Today, the largest employer — Wal-Mart — pays around $8 per hour.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2014/10/25/cheat-sheet-middle-class-cant-afford/17730223/

 

I sort of get the instinct to go "hey I didn't have it easy!" For those of us who got out of school in the 80s, it wasn't easy. There were periods of very high unemployment in my country, coupled with double digit interest rates. We had a little housing boom and crash here in the 80s. But I also think those who managed then and managed through the subsequent crashes did so often because they benefited from holdings or savings accumulated by their parents. Many in our kids' generation can't count on that anymore because our generation is depleted.  A lot of people my age are only getting by on lines of credit. Their assets are shrinking, not growing and many won't be able to help the next generation as much as people my parents' age & older were able to help (here that consisted mostly of riding out the housing market. Houses bought for <100K in the 80s are worth well over a million now. People now in their 60s & 70s who got that, hung on to & didn't reverse mortgage will bequeath a tidy sum.)   





 

[PeachyDoodle]

I am not sure it was "easier" as much as that the definition of a good life was a lot different.  Things people believe they "need" in order to have a comfortable life just can't compare.

 

I think there's something to this. DH and I have discussed many times over the years (we've been married almost 18) how we want NOW what it took our parents years to earn. Leaving home and getting married and established on our own was a big step DOWN in lifestyle for us. And I'm sure that's true for many. Just look at the basic monthly bills an average person "needs" to pay in order to maintain a "normal" lifestyle. Many, many people didn't pay for things like TV service 30 years ago, much less internet or cell phones. Those few things are considered must-haves by most middle- and even lower-class people, but they can easily add hundreds to your monthly budget. 

 

The only snowflake I know personally is 35, so if he's a Millennial, he's on the far upper end. He's married, with one kid and one on the way, and he owns a successful business and his own home, which he paid cash for. Sounds great until you realize that he and his family continue to live in the upstairs of his parents' home because he hasn't been able to upgrade his own home to be "acceptable" for him to live in. He's owned it for OVER A YEAR. He has never lived anywhere except with his parents. When he married, they added on a room upstairs to give him and the new wife more room. His parents also put him through college and have bought him numerous vehicles and expensive equipment for his business. His mother does all the cooking and cleaning and laundry, and now child care too, despite the fact that he and his wife have a combined six-figure income. I know that before he was married he never contributed a dime to the household (hence the cash for the house). That may have changed (though I doubt it). He is not lazy and he works hard, but he is the most entitled person I know. He demands the world and then has the gall to complain about low-lifes who mooch off the government through things like Medicaid and unemployment.

 

Of course, his mother, aside from being an obvious enabler, is also a snowflake herself, so I don't really think you can put a generational label on it. Whoever said snowflakes raise snowflakes is right.

[kathkath]

Yes. DH has some working for him. One is upset about not being promoted quickly to a job most don’t get until they have put in 5 years AND there is an opening. Neither is true.

[TravelingChris]

It certainly is more acceptable to admit it, but that does not explain the actual suicide numbers.

 

"3X: The suicide rate among young adults, ages 15-24, has tripled since the 1950s and Suicide is currently the 2nd most common cause of death among college students."

 

http://www.collegedegreesearch.net/student-suicides/

 

Suicides back then and even now in some areas are reported as accidents to lessen surviving families grief.

[SKL]

You know how I posted that boomer won't admit how good they had it?  It's really inevitable. 

 

They won't admit the numbers, won't admit how much inflation has eaten into purchasing power, will always find someone 'back then' who had it hard, blabla.

 

"In fact, in real terms the average wage peaked more than 40 years ago: The $4.03-an-hour rate recorded in January 1973 has the same purchasing power as $22.41 would today."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

 

50 years ago, the largest employer was General Motors, where workers earned an equivalent of $50 per hour (in today's money). Today, the largest employer — Wal-Mart — pays around $8 per hour.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2014/10/25/cheat-sheet-middle-class-cant-afford/17730223/

 

 

 

Right, there were many people riding on an artificial economy propped up by protectionism in those days.  It was hard for them to accept later when they could no longer maintain their middle-class lifestyle on blue-collar skills.  But the problem was that they had been overpaid by a lot.  Unions forced non-sustainable compensation packages and the inevitable happened.  If today were like those days, it would be a bad thing, not a good thing.

 

Unfortunately, times like those taught people to define "need" and "standard of living" in ways that cause problems to this day.  Those who weren't lucky enough to have a jacked up salary managed on a more sustainable lifestyle in the long run.  That is a good thing.  But it is portrayed as a bad thing.

 

[EmilyGF]

There are studies that have been done since the 1960s (?) that ask basically the same questions each year (not things like, "Are you diagnosed with a mental illness" but things like, "How often do you feel _____?") that show a marked increase in mental health problems.

 

This isn't the article I was looking for, but it hits on some things.

Also the iGen book talks about smart phones and mental health problems (and these corroborate things my friends who work with undergrads have seen just in the last few years).

 

Emily

[Lady Florida.]

 

I sort of get the instinct to go "hey I didn't have it easy!" 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if this is cultural and/or related to relative financial comfort.

 

Dh's family was poor when they arrived in the 17th century but by his grandparent's generation they were comfortable. They worked hard yes, but weren't worried about food or shelter. And they have an "I worked hard and you will too" attitude.

 

My family arrived as poor immigrants in the late 19th century. They worked hard and barely scraped by. Their attitude has been, "I hope you don't have to struggle like I did. I want you to have it easier". 

 

I'm not calling either one better. Hard work can be good for you IMO but you shouldn't have to work until you drop just to provide the necessities. There's a balance somewhere. Anyway I'm just musing and wondering about the difference in attitude. And I'm talking about the same generation having such very different attitudes, not different generations.

[hornblower]

Right, there were many people riding on an artificial economy propped up by protectionism in those days.  It was hard for them to accept later when they could no longer maintain their middle-class lifestyle on blue-collar skills.  But the problem was that they had been overpaid by a lot.  Unions forced non-sustainable compensation packages and the inevitable happened.  If today were like those days, it would be a bad thing, not a good thing.

 

Unfortunately, times like those taught people to define "need" and "standard of living" in ways that cause problems to this day.  Those who weren't lucky enough to have a jacked up salary managed on a more sustainable lifestyle in the long run.  That is a good thing.  But it is portrayed as a bad thing.

 

yeah no. I'm a lefty and used to be a union shop steward.  I disagree fundamentally with the premise here.

 

It seems to me we're well on the way of moving back a peasant/serf class system.

 

Income inequality is a huge problem & getting worse. It doesn't have to be this way.  People weren't being overpaid then. They're being exploited and underpaid now. 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by hornblower

[SKL]

yeah no. I'm a lefty and used to be a union shop steward.  I disagree fundamentally with the premise here.

 

It seems to me we're well on the way of moving back a peasant/serf class system; we're pretty well on the way there. 

 

Income inequality is a huge problem & getting worse. It doesn't have to be this way.  People weren't being overpaid then. They're being exploited and underpaid now. 

 

 

 

Maybe a little of both, but yes, absolutely people were overpaid then for the skills they brought.

 

I don't deny some people are and were underpaid as well. I worked for a union shop in a grocery store where I was absolutely underpaid, especially after mandatory union dues were deducted.

 

I definitely don't see peasant/serf here, where it's still the case that the majority of US and Canadian families own their own homes.  There may be some pockets of the continent where that is the case though.

[Lady Florida.]

Suicides back then and even now in some areas are reported as accidents to lessen surviving families grief.

 

Also it's a sin in the Catholic church. While it's still a sin they've eased up on the way it's determined, and recognize mental illness now. Back then though, it didn't matter. It was a sin and the person would be deprived of a Christian burial. So yeah, it was an "accident" that killed so and so. Not suicide.

 

That's not to downplay the problem now. It's a real problem. But not all suicide in past decades was reported as such.