Vax'ed v. non-vax'ed homeschoolers "study" shared in my local hs group

[Laura Corin]

 

Even within the G-8 the number of vaccines between the US (49) and Italy (32?) can vary wildly.  If Germany only requires 5 doses of MMR and the US requires 6, is that a disqualifying reason for entry to the US?  Is Japan's vaccination schedule correct?  or should the world be following more closely to the US number?  Is there any body of work that says 49 doses is superior in disease prevention and herd immunity than 30? 

 

I've seen different countries just accepting other schedules.  When we moved from Hong Kong to Scotland, the Scottish doctor's practice didn't suggest any extra or different schedule for the boys.

[DawnM]

Conduct the study in South Sudan or Somalia or Ghana and then get back to me. 

 

This all makes me crazy with studies in developed countries where they have the choice to vax or not vax, knowing their child probably won't be exposed to the diseases anyway.

[SKL]

The proof could be required as part of the paperwork need for the issuance of a new passport or the renewal of an old passport. Compared to many other laws that have been enacted over the years, it would be a piece of cake to phase this in. 

 

New passport applications require either:  proof of immunity to selected diseases OR completed/in progress immunization record

Renewal passport applications require either: proof of immunity to selected diseases OR  completed/in progress immunization record

 

At the end of the phase in period:

New passports: continue to provide proof of immunity to selected diseases OR completed/in progress immunization record

Renewal passports: If the immunizations were in progress at the time the passport was issued or last renewed, then the person has to provide either proof of immunity or a completed/in progress immunization record. 

 

I'm not really advocating for or against such a provision, I'm looking at from a purely logistical standpoint.

....

 

You'd also have to decide what to do about people who are not vaccinated for medical reasons.  Should those people not be allowed a passport, or do they get a free pass since it's not under their control?

 

[justasque]

Moving back to the study mentioned in the original post, it has been retracted by the journal that published it - 

Updated: Vaccine-autism study retracted — again
 

For the second time, a journal has quickly retracted a study that suggested vaccines raise the risk of autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders.

 

The study first raised a furor last year, prompting a Frontiers journal to quickly retract it. After it was republished in the Journal of Translational Science this month, that journal has also retracted it.

 

Although the titles of the two papers changed, the abstracts were nearly identical. Both studies surveyed the parents of 666 home-schooled children, 39% of whom where not vaccinated, and concluded that vaccination increased the risk of neurodevelopmental problems, particularly if children were born prematurely.

 

A representative of the Journal of Translational Science told us “Pilot comparative study on the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated 6- to 12-year-old U.S. children†has been retracted, and it will update us with an explanation.

...

 

When the study appeared last year in Frontiers in Public Health, it caused a firestorm on Twitter, prompting Frontiers to release a public statement, noting that the study was only “provisionally accepted but not published.†It was retracted later that same week.

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm just going to say it.  That is flat-out irresponsible.  

The people around you who are immune-compromised, newborns, pregnant moms, the fragile elderly, and those particularly vulnerable to certain diseases for other reasons, need this information to care for their health.  You may not be aware of their circumstances, so you cannot know when exposure may be cause for concern and when it is more likely to be benign.

And consider this - if you have an unvaxxed kid, you need this information from others to care for your own child's health.  

Please think seriously about the potential ramifications of your choice. Pray or meditate on how "do unto others" applies in your situation.

Please - seriously consider giving others the information they need to make their own informed choices about if and when they will expose themselves or their vulnerable loved ones to your unvaxxed kids. 

 

Seriously?  I had a kid who was immumocompromised for years and a SIL in her 10th year of cancer treatment and no, we don't go around asking if everyone we encounter is up to date on shots.  How could anyone possibly do this in the real world? 

 

That daughter came down with blood test confirmed Whooping Cough two years ago (she had only had a couple of vaccines,pneuomo and MMR, since her immunologist OKed a selective schedule, as did her boyfriend and several of their friends who had been fully vaccinated according to schedule.  It goes around, even among vaccinated population every few years and always has. The only restriction the doctors told them was not to cough on any babies.  That's it.  No quarantine.  Plenty of other people had it without knowing it because it was the typical symptoms-a normal cold like cough for a couple of weeks, not the extreme symptoms with the whoop sound and vomiting.  Being in her situation, we're more likely to seek medical diagnosis rather than making assumptions.  The doctor said it's going around vaxxed and unvaxxed again.  Most won't even know. Meh.  No big deal.

 

I know people want to live in an ideal world where they can know and control everything, but you can't.  And no, you can't go around demanding everyone else's vaccination status or health status or whatever.  If your immune system is so fragile that any exposure would be the end of you, you quarantine yourself.

 

[Butter]

That daughter came down with blood test confirmed Whooping Cough two years ago (she had only had a couple of vaccines,pneuomo and MMR, since her immunologist OKed a selective schedule, as did her boyfriend and several of their friends who had been fully vaccinated according to schedule.  It goes around, even among vaccinated population every few years and always has.

 

 

I just want to throw out that of course it does, but this is not a failure of the vaccination, but rather a known limitation.  Pertussis vaccine wears off sometime in childhood.  We know this.  We've known this for many years.  And that is why they've developed a booster for adults now, to help protect babies.  In grown people, pertussis is rarely scary, but is definitely annoying.  I don't know if you know that it wears off or not, but I've had people argue that teens and adults getting pertussis even having been fully vaxed "proves" the pertussis vax is useless.

[maize]

I just want to throw out that of course it does, but this is not a failure of the vaccination, but rather a known limitation. Pertussis vaccine wears off sometime in childhood. We know this. We've known this for many years. And that is why they've developed a booster for adults now, to help protect babies. In grown people, pertussis is rarely scary, but is definitely annoying. I don't know if you know that it wears off or not, but I've had people argue that teens and adults getting pertussis even having been fully vaxed "proves" the pertussis vax is useless.

Yes, pertussis immunity from the acellular vaccine wears off quite quickly. Which is why boosters are now recommended for pregnant women with each pregnancy, and for all other household members or people who will be in close contact with infants--because the vaccine DOES provide significant protection and save lives, but it doesn't last very long.

 

I just wish they would make it readily available outside of a combination shot. I really don't need that many doses of the tetanus vaccine...

Edited May 9, 2017 by maize

[wapiti]

Some info about the pertussis vax:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/maso/facm/pdfs/BSCOID/2013121112_BSCOID_Minutes.pdf (see page 6)

 

• Resurgence of Pertussis. As reported at the May 2013 BSC meeting, the recent resurgence in pertussis cases has been associated with waning immunity over time in persons who received the acellular pertussis vaccine (which is administered as the pertussis component of DTaP vaccine). However, a recent study suggests another explanation for decreased vaccine effectiveness: an increase in Bordetella pertussis isolates that lack pertactin (PRN)--a key antigen component of the acellular pertussis vaccine. A study that screened B. pertussis strains isolated between 1935 and 2012 for gene insertions that prevent production of PRN found significant increases in PRN-deficient isolates throughout the United States.2 The earliest PRN-deficient strain was isolated in 1994; by 2012, the percentage of PRN-deficient isolates was more than 50%.

 

To assess the clinical significance of these findings, CDC used an IgG anti-PRN ELISA and other assays (PCR amplification, sequencing, and Western blots) to characterize 752 B. pertussis strains isolated in 2012 from six Enhanced Pertussis Surveillance Sites3 and from epidemics in Washington and Vermont. Findings indicated that 85% of the isolates were PRN-deficient and vaccinated patients had significantly higher odds than unvaccinated patients of being infected with PRN-deficient strains. Moreover, when patients with up-to-date DTaP vaccinations were compared to unvaccinated patients, the odds of being infected with PRN-deficient strains increased, suggesting that PRN-bacteria may have a selective advantage in infecting DTaP-vaccinated persons

 

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/fda-study-helps-provide-understanding-rising-rates-whooping-cough-and-response

 In response to concerns about the side effects of the whole cell pertussis vaccine, acellular vaccines were developed and replaced the use of whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the U.S. and other countries in the 1990s; however, whole-cell pertussis vaccines are still used in many other countries.

none of the vaccinated animals developed outward signs of pertussis disease after being exposed to B. pertussis. However, there were differences in other aspects of the immune response.  Animals that received an acellular pertussis vaccine had the bacteria in their airways for up to six weeks and were able to spread the infection to unvaccinated animals. In contrast, animals that received whole-cell vaccine cleared the bacteria within three weeks.

 

This research suggests that although individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.

 

The FDA study itself, for those (like me, with an immune deficient kiddo with Th2 autoimmunity issues) who want to get into the weeds of Th1/Th2/Th17 cytokines http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/787.full.pdf

Taken as a whole, the data presented in this study suggest that antibodies induced by aP vaccination are sufficient for preventing severe pertussis symptoms but do not mitigate colonization.

Currently, a major focus of public health agencies is the pre- vention of pertussis infection in young infants who have not completed their primary aP series and have considerable morbidity and mortality to pertussis infection (1). One recommendation to reduce transmission of pertussis to infants is by “cocooning,†or vaccinating people who have contact with infants (11). Our data show that aP-vaccinated animals are infected and transmit per- tussis to naïve contacts. Consistent with these findings, seroepi- demiological studies have concluded that B. pertussis circulation is still high in countries with excellent aP uptake (27, 50), and a cross- sectional study showed that postpartum aP vaccination of mothers did not reduce pertussis illness in young infants (51). These data suggest that cocooning is unlikely to be an effective strategy to reduce the burden of pertussis in infants. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by wapiti

[ealp2009]

I just want to throw out that of course it does, but this is not a failure of the vaccination, but rather a known limitation. Pertussis vaccine wears off sometime in childhood. We know this. We've known this for many years. And that is why they've developed a booster for adults now, to help protect babies. In grown people, pertussis is rarely scary, but is definitely annoying. I don't know if you know that it wears off or not, but I've had people argue that teens and adults getting pertussis even having been fully vaxed "proves" the pertussis vax is useless.

So if you get vaccinated and it doesn't work and you still get the disease that is not a failure of the vaccine? Just a "known limitation". That sounds like 1984 speak.

My kids are fully vaccinated but when a vaccine is given and it doesn't work, that is failure of the vaccine. When something is designed to work a certain way and it doesn't that would fit my definition of failure. One definition of failure is lack of success. I also feel like effectiveness is not well defined. According to the CDC the pertussis vaccine (Tdap) protects 7/10 people in the first year after receiving it and it drops to 3 or 4 out of 10 by 4 years. Even with 100% compliance pertussis is going to be floating around. The effectiveness rates for dtap are higher but still not high enough to prevent outbreaks even with everyone being up to date. Sure, I'll keep myself up to date but I won't be shocked when my kids or myself get it.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/pregnant/mom/vacc-effectiveness.html

 

 

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[TechWife]

You'd also have to decide what to do about people who are not vaccinated for medical reasons.  Should those people not be allowed a passport, or do they get a free pass since it's not under their control?

 

 

I think that would depend, in part, if people were allowed to decline vaccinations for reasons other than medical reasons when the law was put into place. How strong is the herd immunity? 

 

Would someone who can't vaccinate want to travel to an area where they could contract an illness and bring it home?

 

There are a lot of worms in this can, aren't there?  They need to be let out, though. It's time to think through these things. 

[SKL]

I think that would depend, in part, if people were allowed to decline vaccinations for reasons other than medical reasons when the law was put into place. How strong is the herd immunity? 

 

Would someone who can't vaccinate want to travel to an area where they could contract an illness and bring it home?

 

There are a lot of worms in this can, aren't there?  They need to be let out, though. It's time to think through these things. 

 

Sure, many would.  People take all sorts of risks in order to do their version of "living life to its fullest."

[Dmmetler]

Medical excemptions work for other areas where vaccinations are required. I don't think they're even strongly debated. Where the issue comes in is the "religious or personal beliefs" excemption, which comes down frequently to "I don't want to vaccinate, and you have to deal with it". Those are the folks that some pediatric practices are refusing to take as patients, for example.

[Ananda]

I learned about how ineffective the pertussis vaccine was when my oldest's preschool had to deal with an epidemic.  The first child (vaccinated) got it and the preschool had to inform everyone that they had been exposed.  They also made a rule that children with any cold symptoms had to receive a doctors note that they didn't have pertussis.  This was a preschool during cold season so that applied to most of the children, including my child.  

 

Anyway it turned out that my child did, in fact, have pertussis.  The CDC required that our entire family be on prophylactic antibiotics and be quarantined (at home) for the five days until we finished them.  I know a lot of the preschoolers ended up catching it despite the preschool & CDC taking precautions.  I understand that occasionally a vaccinated kid with still get the illness.  But it shouldn't be able to spread through a vaccinated population.  I wouldn't call that success.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't call it failure either.  While many kids got sick, most didn't.  All of the sick kids had mild cases and didn't pass it on to siblings or their pregnant mommies.  

[Butter]

So if you get vaccinated and it doesn't work and you still get the disease that is not a failure of the vaccine? Just a "known limitation". That sounds like 1984 speak.

 

No.  What you wrote and what I wrote are two different things.  You are talking about getting vaccinated and it not working (you don't get immune at all ever).  That IS a failure of the vaccine (and in a certain percentage of people vaccines do fail to render them immune).  What I am talking about is waning immunity after a few years.  THAT is a known limitation.  The vaccine initially makes kids immune when they are most at risk and then wears off.  Would you say that needing a tetanus shot every 10 years because immunity wanes is a failure?  Because *that* is what I am talking about.

[ealp2009]

No. What you wrote and what I wrote are two different things. You are talking about getting vaccinated and it not working (you don't get immune at all ever). That IS a failure of the vaccine (and in a certain percentage of people vaccines do fail to render them immune). What I am talking about is waning immunity after a few years. THAT is a known limitation. The vaccine initially makes kids immune when they are most at risk and then wears off. Would you say that needing a tetanus shot every 10 years because immunity wanes is a failure? Because *that* is what I am talking about.

First of all, according to the latest research tetanus immunity lasts 30 years.

 

https://news.ohsu.edu/2016/03/22/study-shows-tetanus-shots-needed-every-30-years-not-every-10

 

The pertussis vaccine protects less than half the people given it after 4 years. That's not just waning immunity. It was designed to keep those who are up to date from getting and spreading pertussis and it doesn't do that. So I would call that failure and we can agree to disagree on that.

 

 

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Edited May 9, 2017 by ealp2009

[Scarlett]

Out of 5 kids I have one with ADHD and one with ASD. My ASD kiddo was diagnosed before vaccines. We delayed him because after having so many kids and both myself and my husband being neurobiologist we saw he was different as early as 3 months. I started taking video documentation with my thoughts as he grew. My pediatrician thought I was crazy but sure enough he received his preliminary diagnosis at 15 months and full at 2 years. The diagnosis is correct and has maintained. His was not at all due to vaccines and all of my kids are indeed vaccinated. I have no worries about that. Here is what I have observed though...after he gets his vaccines he has effects. His language abilities nose dive, his behaviors become a bit wonky and we see noticeable differences for about 2 to 3 weeks post vaccines and then he is fine again. We have always documented this. My husband works as a research scientist and looks at various brain insults (TBI, dementia, etc). We have had a theory ever since grad school that our immune response plays a part in this. When your immune system activates it creates inflammation to battle the insult. Some are more susceptible to this than others. It also activities various proteins that act on other pathways. These cascades are meant to protect us but they do damage as well. On a small scale this damage is negligible. However, with increases in pollution, plastics, processed foods and so forth (sugar is the biggest culprit), our bodies exist under more inflammation states than those in the past. This, I believe, has led to higher rates of diagnosis to some extent. Also, women are born with their eggs and these eggs are assaulted for years before use. This does effect the genetic viability. Literally what our grandmother's do to their body effected us inadvertently as we will effect all those in our lineage. So again, nature/nurture is at play. My husband and I are now seeing journal article after journal article now in preliminary studies starting to look at inflammation and the immune system as a viable reason for many of these brain disorders that we are seeing more of. I think it is an exciting time in research.

 

So with all of this to say, I too wish people would stop causing hysteria around vaccines. If immuno inflammation does promote some disorders then not vaccinating is worse because those serious illnesses will lead to way more inflammation over time.

 

 

This is a very interesting post.  Thank you.

[HS Mom in NC]

I just want to throw out that of course it does, but this is not a failure of the vaccination, but rather a known limitation.  Pertussis vaccine wears off sometime in childhood.  We know this.  We've known this for many years.  And that is why they've developed a booster for adults now, to help protect babies.  In grown people, pertussis is rarely scary, but is definitely annoying.  I don't know if you know that it wears off or not, but I've had people argue that teens and adults getting pertussis even having been fully vaxed "proves" the pertussis vax is useless.

 

Right, but I'm pretty sure most people have no idea that's the case.  Just two weeks ago a local FB friend was shocked!  Shocked ! I tell you!  That her late elementary aged kid's school is dealing with Whooping Cough among the vaccinated kids! But she thought that it never went around the vaccinated population!  How did this happen!?!  She's outraged and so are her many of her FB friends! Blame the anti vaxxers!   It seems they didn't get the memo that the vaccine decreases chances for a while, it doesn't eliminate them for a lifetimes.  Apparently plenty of doctors aren't explaining this clearly to mommies these days.

[Ausmumof3]

http://www.immune.org.nz/duration-protection-efficacy-and-effectiveness

 

According to this chart, measles is lifelong in more than 96% of cases. Some of the others are shorter, but many are around 20 years. Interesting info though.

Whooping cough seems to be the bad one here. I know a few people who've had it and they were all vaccinated as kids but haven't had boosters. A lot of mums here with new babies will request friends and relatives get the booster shot before holding the baby.

[SKL]

Right, but I'm pretty sure most people have no idea that's the case.  Just two weeks ago a local FB friend was shocked!  Shocked ! I tell you!  That her late elementary aged kid's school is dealing with Whooping Cough among the vaccinated kids! But she thought that it never went around the vaccinated population!  How did this happen!?!  She's outraged and so are her many of her FB friends! Blame the anti vaxxers!   It seems they didn't get the memo that the vaccine decreases chances for a while, it doesn't eliminate them for a lifetimes.  Apparently plenty of doctors aren't explaining this clearly to mommies these days.

 

Right, the medical community does nothing to inform the general public of this type of information.

 

What is so hard about telling people how long each immunization is effective, I don't know.  But they don't do it.  Most people are in the dark, so no wonder they resort to medieval type thought processes.

 

Personally I have never, before today, heard that the pertussis vax wears off that fast.  And I have read a lot.

[Butter]

I originally read about it in a parenting magazine when I was 17 or 18.  I worked at a therapist office and we were having a slow night and the magazine was in the waiting room so I paged through it and that was one of the things in it.  That was in the late 90s, so it definitely has not been kept secret.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Right, but I'm pretty sure most people have no idea that's the case. Just two weeks ago a local FB friend was shocked! Shocked ! I tell you! That her late elementary aged kid's school is dealing with Whooping Cough among the vaccinated kids! But she thought that it never went around the vaccinated population! How did this happen!?! She's outraged and so are her many of her FB friends! Blame the anti vaxxers! It seems they didn't get the memo that the vaccine decreases chances for a while, it doesn't eliminate them for a lifetimes. Apparently plenty of doctors aren't explaining this clearly to mommies these days.

Or the mommies are told and forget. Or the mommies get into and don't read it. Or....

[wapiti]

The fact that the acellular pertussis vaccine does not prevent people from becoming infected with the most prevalent strains is an even bigger issue, IMO, than the short duration.

 

I heard about the short duration a few years ago; hearsay, but a doc told me that a local Infectious Disease doc flat out admitted the Tdap is a "faulty vaccine" due to the short duration.  (ETA, Tdap is the one usually given around age 11 or 12 here.  I'm pretty sure the "faulty" statement was about Tdap rather than DTaP.)

I didn't look thoroughly but here is a random study in NEJM finding that protection was gone by five years after the fifth dose of DTaP.

 

As for the Tdap, from Pediatrics:

​ Routine Tdap did not prevent pertussis outbreaks. Among adolescents who have only received DTaP vaccines in childhood, Tdap provided moderate protection against pertussis during the first year and then waned rapidly so that litle protection remained 2-3 years after vaccination

 

 

 A lot of mums here with new babies will request friends and relatives get the booster shot before holding the baby.

 

FWIW, according to the FDA study I quoted in another post above, unfortunately that may not protect the baby.

Edited May 10, 2017 by wapiti

[Bluegoat]

First of all, according to the latest research tetanus immunity lasts 30 years.

 

https://news.ohsu.edu/2016/03/22/study-shows-tetanus-shots-needed-every-30-years-not-every-10

 

The pertussis vaccine protects less than half the people given it after 4 years. That's not just waning immunity. It was designed to keep those who are up to date from getting and spreading pertussis and it doesn't do that. So I would call that failure and we can agree to disagree on that.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It means people, including doctors, would probably be very happy if a more robust version was developed.

 

But it still works a lot better than doing nothing.

[HS Mom in NC]

Right, the medical community does nothing to inform the general public of this type of information.

 

What is so hard about telling people how long each immunization is effective, I don't know.  But they don't do it.  Most people are in the dark, so no wonder they resort to medieval type thought processes.

 

Personally I have never, before today, heard that the pertussis vax wears off that fast.  And I have read a lot.

 

It's worse than that.  When reports of outbreaks don't include all of this specific information for each vaccine then they're crap.  Stop posting them on social media, people.  You're getting all the mommies in a dither.

 

1. number of people with illness who are too young to vaccinated according to recommended schedule

2. number of people with illness only partially vaccinated, due to age,  in a series vaccinated according to recommended schedule

3. number of people with illness not vaccinated at all due to medical reasons

4. number of people with illness who completed the original series but not recommended boosters

5. number of people with illness who are eligible by age to be vaccinated but opted out after partial series for medical reasons.

6. number of people with illness who are eligible by age to be vaccinated but opted out after partial series for personal/religious reasons

7. number of people with illness who are eligible by age to vaccinated but opted out of the entire series for personal/religious reasons

8. the source of the original exposure.  (Often this is due to someone entering the country from another country that is having an outbreak.)

 

Crap articles and reports distort the perceptions of people so that we have mommies walking around in a fantasy world and exposing people without knowing about it.  Most people who come down with Whooping Cough don't have the most extreme and well known symptoms: coughing 100 days, the whooping sound, vomiting. Most of them have what looks like a cold, they don't get their kid diagnosed, and they expose other people having NO IDEA they did. Older people come down with it too and expose their kids and grandkids because, again, they have idea it's not a cold or bad allergies. But they'll give 100% of the blame to the anti-vaxx crowd all over social media.  When your ped or immunologist tells you about outbreaks (which they do when your kid is immunocompromised) you're on the look out of milder symptoms like slight bluing around the lips and fingernails and more extreme symptoms.  When the mild stuff comes along, you make sure you get it checked before you make a mommy diagnosis. 

 

When people see exactly who is coming down with it because reporters and peds are doing their jobs well by explaining the above list during each outbreak,  they understand that sometimes, like in some measles outbreaks, the unvaccinated population is significantly more likely to come down with it and other times, like the Whooping Cough outbreak my daughter experienced, it's likely both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated population coming down with it.  You don't get to play the "I believe in science" card if you're not looking at the cold, hard facts in detail.  Yes, human nature craves simplicity and guarantees but there are no such things when it comes to vaccinations.  Vaccinations can only decrease the likelihood of catching the diseases for a while (duration varies by shot) and that's not anyone's fault.  It's the best we can do so far. That's the real world we all live in, we may as well face it and accept it.

[SKL]

Seems they should tell you (orally and in writing) how long the vaxes are supposed to last when you or your kid gets them.

 

That has never happened in my personal experience.

[StaceyinLA]

If the price of never getting polio, measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, or pertussis were a 30x increased risk of allergic rhinitis, I'd take that trade-off.

Not sure if I'd live a lifetime with allergies to avoid the small possibility of contracting something else. I think part of the issue is the fear-mongering about some of the illnesses. I'm not saying they can't be serious, or potentially fatal (tiny percentages, and frankly, allergic reactions kill people too), but with our medical care, not likely. Yes, pertussis is awful in infants, but the pertussis vaccine is one of the least effective, and one of the ones most likely to allow you to asymptomatically transmit and spread the disease.

 

I just don't believe it's as cut and dried as the government and CDC would like us to believe, and anyone who questions it is considered irresponsible at best. Hell, there are DOCTORS that don't agree with our vaccine schedule, but they are all quacks of course. I mean how DARE they!

 

There is too much information out there showing declines of these diseases before vaccines came into play. I just don't believe they are the answer to all our problems. You can't vaccinate people for everything. Where does it end?

 

ETA that my kids did have a few, select vaccines as children, and upon entering college, so I'm not ANTI-vaccine.

Edited May 10, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[LucyStoner]

Doctors don't control media coverage of outbreaks.

 

I have discussed each vaccine in detail with my sons' pediatrician and he's been very open about the risks, benefits, efficacy and length of potential immunity. They also give me the package insert and the health department handout which goes into a lot of detail.

 

Just chiming in as a mom who doesn't feel deceived or kept in the dark.

Edited May 10, 2017 by LucyStoner

[StaceyinLA]

I just want to throw out that of course it does, but this is not a failure of the vaccination, but rather a known limitation. Pertussis vaccine wears off sometime in childhood. We know this. We've known this for many years. And that is why they've developed a booster for adults now, to help protect babies. In grown people, pertussis is rarely scary, but is definitely annoying. I don't know if you know that it wears off or not, but I've had people argue that teens and adults getting pertussis even having been fully vaxed "proves" the pertussis vax is useless.

The worst part about this adult "booster" is that it allows adults to asymptomatically spread Pertussis. This is a huge downfall of the pertussis vaccine. Those who are vaccinated can still have the bacteria and spread it. The FDA had a page about it on their site, and about how it can be spread. I don't think vaccinating adults helps babies because at least if I'm ill, I'll stay away from people's babies/toddlers, but if I am carrying something without knowing, who knows when and where I could be spreading it.

[wapiti]

I've been thinking about the pertussis vax since I poked around at some studies last night and something's been bothering me more than before (fwiw, all my kids are fully vaxed at this point in time).

 

A vaccine that is given multiple times (e.g. my older kids each had 5 dtap and 1 tdap so far), lowers immune response (severity of symptoms) but tends to not prevent actual infectivity (of the PRN-deficient, prevalent strain, per the FDA study) sounds an awful lot like an allergy shot, in spite of the adjuvants.  While that may have an upside for some of the recipients, that is a huge issue for controlling the spread.

 

The complexity of the immune system is daunting and often I feel like we're in the dark ages regarding what we know.  (Indeed, our immunologist is pretty cutting-edge but needs to have a conference call with other docs about my ds's case in order to decide next steps... a lot of trial-and-error because science just. doesn't. know.)  I came across an interesting bit last night about the tdap, a couple of studies where tdap was given to pregnant moms and subsequently the babies showed a reduced response to the first dose of Prevnar (e.g. here and more generally, here and here about subsequent reduced response to pertussis vax in babies following maternal tdap, and what about this one, reduced response to pneumococcal vax in adults when given following tdap - really weird; and yet, with more questions than answers, full speed ahead on policies to encourage tdap immunization of pregnant mothers.)  Note that a "normal" response to the pneumococcal vaccine is so robust that it is actually part of the criteria for diagnosis of immune deficiency, so any blunting of that response as described in the above study is unnerving IMO.  (Indeed, my own immune-deficient kiddo shows no pneumococcal titer response to the four doses of Prevnar he had as an infant; just coincidentally, his tdap was a few months before we found out about the immune deficiency.)   I read a great deal about the immune system and it is ultra-complex, fascinating stuff; I'm just saying, we don't know as much as some think we do about the immune system.  Combine that with microbes and we've got quite the scientific frontier.  (And that doesn't even include the effects of immune activity on the nervous system, i.e. neuroinflammation...)

Edited May 10, 2017 by wapiti

[vonfirmath]

Seems they should tell you (orally and in writing) how long the vaxes are supposed to last when you or your kid gets them.

 

That has never happened in my personal experience.

 

You don't get a piece of paper when your kid gets vaccinations? I've gotten one with every vaccination my kid (or I) has gotten. Yes, sometimes I don't read it. But the information is there if I choose to read it

Edited May 10, 2017 by vonfirmath

[SKL]

You don't get a piece of paper when your kid gets vaccinations? I've gotten one with every vaccination my kid (or I) has gotten. Yes, sometimes I don't read it. But the information is there if I choose to read it

 

In recent years I have received printouts.  Usually they are several pages about how my kids should eat fruits and vegetables and have a BMI between the 5th and 95th percentile.  They will say what was done that day, but never have they given additional info about the shots.  Once when I refused the shots (had decided to delay and my kid had just turned 1), the frustrated doctor gave me some CDC handouts (relating to the specific shots I was postponing) on my way out.  The CDC handouts do not tell you how long the shots are effective either.

 

After my above post that you quoted, I looked online for information about what changed when they switched from DTP to DTaP (or whatever it's called now) in 1996.  I read through about 4 web pages / downloads.  Not one of them mentioned how long the shots are effective.  Also none of them recommended an ongoing booster schedule for adults.

 

My kids are due for some boosters next year, so I will see whether my new medical practice provides any useful information about the shots in its printouts.

 

ETA FTR my kids had their infant shots (pre-12mos) while they were in foster care, so DTaP was not something I needed to research when my kids were babies.  I would probably not have delayed those like I did the MMR & CP, because the concerns of both the diseases and the side effects are different.

Edited May 10, 2017 by SKL

[wapiti]

You don't get a piece of paper when your kid gets vaccinations? I've gotten one with every vaccination my kid (or I) has gotten. Yes, sometimes I don't read it. But the information is there if I choose to read it

 

No, the information sheets do NOT include how long immunity due to the vaccine will last.  E.g. here are the CDC info sheets (the very ones we got from our doc) for Tdap and DTaP.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You don't get a piece of paper when your kid gets vaccinations? I've gotten one with every vaccination my kid (or I) has gotten. Yes, sometimes I don't read it. But the information is there if I choose to read it

 

I have an international shot booklet.  http://apps.who.int/bookorders/anglais/detart1.jsp?sesslan=1&codlan=0&codcol=68&codcch=1000 It's not that hard to ask a doctor to add to it when shots are given. 

[SKL]

I think most lay people assume that the vaccinations give lifelong immunity unless they are otherwise informed.  (So, if they are informed a booster is needed after x years, then they would not expect lifelong immunity until after the last booster.)

Edited May 10, 2017 by SKL

[Bluegoat]

It might well be the case that the need to educate patients on what a vaccination covers has been somewhat overlooked.  But, it isn't news to doctors or medical people, and the information has always been out there.

 

I'm not sure how it really impacts the discussion of the efficacy of vaccines - they work the way they work.

[Butter]

It would be impossible to say how long immunity from a vaccine will last in an individual.  We can't even say if an individual will get immune at all from a specific vaccine.  Some that we previously thought lasted a certain amount of time now we know last longer or shorter.  People may assume every vaccine produces lifelong immunity but based on the fact that I read in a parenting magazine in the 90s that pertussis immunity wanes, it certainly has not been kept a secret.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Doctors don't control media coverage of outbreaks.

 

I have discussed each vaccine in detail with my sons' pediatrician and he's been very open about the risks, benefits, efficacy and length of potential immunity. They also give me the package insert and the health department handout which goes into a lot of detail.

 

Just chiming in as a mom who doesn't feel deceived or kept in the dark.

 

 

I have an international shot booklet.  http://apps.who.int/bookorders/anglais/detart1.jsp?sesslan=1&codlan=0&codcol=68&codcch=1000 It's not that hard to ask a doctor to add to it when shots are given. 

 

Yes. In addition to the reality that health care providers are not trying to hide information about medications, it is ALL online. All the package insert information, extensive rationale on recommendations and schedules, the reasons, the risks, the population who should or shouldn't receive it, the history of each VPD and the history of the development of each vaccine...

 

immunize.org

CDC.gov

healthychildren.gov

vaccines.gov

 

Google "why does my child need ___ vaccine" or "how dangerous is pertussis" or "what is the schedule for the IPV" or "what shots will I need to travel to Acapulco" and BAM. It's all right there.

 

I'm not even going to get into the argument that there are under-educated and illiterate parents out there, who might not understand. Unless they are mentally incompetent, they can ask "Why does my baby need this," or "Is this a dangerous vaccine," and be provided with the health dept. info sheets which are readily available and easy to understand. The doctor, the nurse, the medical assistant, the pharmacist - these people can ALL explain.

 

20+ years ago, as a medical assistant (perhaps the lowest health care professional on the food chain), in an inner city Medicaid clinic, I did the parent education on vaccines, healthy baby information, infant feeding and moving to solid foods, babyproofing the home, carseat/booster seat info, all of that. I had pamphlets and posters, a brain, and physician backup, so I could do it. Many of our patients were functionally illiterate, or English was not their first language, yet they could understand and were ready to learn. Of course. And if anyone needed more information, the doctor would be in the room in another few minutes.

 

People are not stupid. And health care providers are not withholding information, or deceiving people into signing consent forms for procedures that they (the HCP) consider to be reasonable, routine, and safe.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Bluegoat]

I'm not sure I've ever been to the doctor without being asked if I had questions.  While it might not happen 100% of the time, it is one of the basic things that is almost always asked. 

 

So, a parent could easily say, please tell me a bit about how this works/how lng it lasts/whatever.

[ealp2009]

It might well be the case that the need to educate patients on what a vaccination covers has been somewhat overlooked. But, it isn't news to doctors or medical people, and the information has always been out there.

 

I'm not sure how it really impacts the discussion of the efficacy of vaccines - they work the way they work.

I disagree it has "always been out there." Measles and chickenpox were both put on the market and on the CDC schedule as a one shot for a lifetime of immunity. We now know that is not the case. It was not clear that immunity from the accellular pertussis vaccine would wane as quickly as it does and many people (3/10) wouldn't even have protection in the first year after completing the series.

 

I think the point is that being honest and being more forthcoming about how vaccines work or don't work might give people more confidence in the vaccine schedule and cause less blaming and animosity in society.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited May 10, 2017 by ealp2009

[SKL]

I'm glad some of you have doctors who provide useful information in a respectful way.  I and many others have had much different experiences, including being laughed at, brushed off, and/or treated with annoyance for asking to discuss something.  In fact, so far I have only had 1 doctor act open to an alternate vax schedule.  That doctor advertised herself as "holistic."  She was our doctor for 1 year until she moved out of state.

 

I don't know why this is.  I mean if I'm going to dose someone's baby with a chemical, I would expect them to want to understand what, why, and maybe have their own thoughts about it.  If they had questions I would do all I could to make them feel informed and empowered.

 

Could be because they schedule visits so tightly that they don't have time to talk.

[Valley Girl]

I'm glad some of you have doctors who provide useful information in a respectful way.  I and many others have had much different experiences, including being laughed at, brushed off, and/or treated with annoyance for asking to discuss something.  In fact, so far I have only had 1 doctor act open to an alternate vax schedule.  That doctor advertised herself as "holistic."  She was our doctor for 1 year until she moved out of state.

 

I don't know why this is.  I mean if I'm going to dose someone's baby with a chemical, I would expect them to want to understand what, why, and maybe have their own thoughts about it.  If they had questions I would do all I could to make them feel informed and empowered.

 

Could be because they schedule visits so tightly that they don't have time to talk.

 

That or it's just so routine for them they've forgotten what it's like to be the parent of young children. I had a ped give me the brush-off and tell me (in response to my vaccine questions when I was the parent of a newborn) that they "get tired of having the same conversations over and over with parents." Well, shoot. Maybe they're in the wrong line of work then.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that we are in an age where there is so much information out there.  I think that as parents we really need to do our homework about pediatric health issues in addition to going to the doctor.  We're not in the 50's where you just did what the doctor told you to do, no questions asked.  I also think that there are ways to talk to doctors.  I googled "how to talk to your doctor" and there were tons of hits on articles with good advice.  I'm short on time so I'm not going to link them.  Unless someone is in a really rural area, I think most people have choices on what doctor to see.  You can look for reviews on doctors before you go to them.  Or you can even call and ask to have a visit to just talk to the doctor so that you can decide if it is a good fit.  You may have to pay the co-pay for an interview appt but it can still be a valuable thing to do.  I've only done it once since I've gotten fairly good at figuring out a good doctor from their reviews, and website.  At my first appointment with a new doctor I do tell them what I'm looking for in a doctor.  It has led to some good conversations. 

[Bluegoat]

I disagree it has "always been out there." Measles and chickenpox were both put on the market and on the CDC schedule as a one shot for a lifetime of immunity. We now know that is not the case. It was not clear that immunity from the accellular pertussis vaccine would wane as quickly as it does and many people (3/10) wouldn't even have protection in the first year after completing the series.

 

I think the point is that honest and being more forthcoming about how they work or don't work might give people more confidence in the vaccine schedule and cause less blaming and animosity in society.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The particulars of particular schedules have changed, sure. Especially with newly available vaccines. But it's not new that they don't last forever.

 

I think sometimes doctors can cause their own communication problems, but I don't think this is a good general example of that. 

[EMS83]

I learned about how ineffective the pertussis vaccine was when my oldest's preschool had to deal with an epidemic.  The first child (vaccinated) got it and the preschool had to inform everyone that they had been exposed.  They also made a rule that children with any cold symptoms had to receive a doctors note that they didn't have pertussis.  This was a preschool during cold season so that applied to most of the children, including my child.  

 

Anyway it turned out that my child did, in fact, have pertussis.  The CDC required that our entire family be on prophylactic antibiotics and be quarantined (at home) for the five days until we finished them.  I know a lot of the preschoolers ended up catching it despite the preschool & CDC taking precautions.  I understand that occasionally a vaccinated kid with still get the illness.  But it shouldn't be able to spread through a vaccinated population.  I wouldn't call that success.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't call it failure either.  While many kids got sick, most didn't.  All of the sick kids had mild cases and didn't pass it on to siblings or their pregnant mommies.  

 

Can you please explain this to me?  How is this enforced?  How was it communicated?

 

ETA: PM is fine; I don't mean to be so public.

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by CES2005

[Bluegoat]

I'm glad some of you have doctors who provide useful information in a respectful way.  I and many others have had much different experiences, including being laughed at, brushed off, and/or treated with annoyance for asking to discuss something.  In fact, so far I have only had 1 doctor act open to an alternate vax schedule.  That doctor advertised herself as "holistic."  She was our doctor for 1 year until she moved out of state.

 

I don't know why this is.  I mean if I'm going to dose someone's baby with a chemical, I would expect them to want to understand what, why, and maybe have their own thoughts about it.  If they had questions I would do all I could to make them feel informed and empowered.

 

Could be because they schedule visits so tightly that they don't have time to talk.

 

 

I think when you approach a doctor asking about things like alternate vax sceduals, you are likely to not get that kind of basic information.  It takes the whole conversation in a different direction.  It's not quite the same as asking basic questions about how the vaccinations work.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Bluegoat

[Ananda]

Can you please explain this to me?  How is this enforced?  How was it communicated?

 

ETA: PM is fine; I don't mean to be so public.

 

This was in reference to my family being quarantined (at home) for five days when my preschooler got whooping cough.  

 

It wasn't enforced.  I suppose we could have been jerks and just gone out and about.  I did go to the store once to get the prescriptions for antibiotics filled.  As far as I know, our compliance was on the honor system.

 

When the results of the test for pertussis came back positive, the doctor called us.  He told us that since our town was in the middle of an outbreak the CDC was overseeing everyone's care and they wanted us all to stay home, until we finished a course of antibiotics.  

 

Later the doctor called us again to say that the CDC wanted us to take a 5-day course of antibiotics instead of the 3-day course he had prescribed. Then the CDC called us directly.  They asked a lot of questions about where we had been and our health over the past few days.  They used their bossy voices to tell us how we were public health hazards and how we might spread it even without symptoms.  Pertussis is very serious, it can kill people etc.  We readily agreed to stay home. I seem to remember that they called my husband's work (that also may not have happened).  I know the CDC was in contact with my child's preschool.  

 

They called us again after the five days was over.  They asked if we had stayed home and if we had stayed healthy.  

[EMS83]

Gotcha.  Thank you for responding.    I guess I won't be caught off guard if we ever have to deal with that.  :)  The concept of a CDC-instigated home quarantine never occurred to me.

 

Honestly the first hing that popped to mind is how that would stink for a wage-supported household.  That's a lot of hours to miss.

[SKL]

I think when you approach a doctor asking about things like alternate vax sceduals, you are likely to not get that kind of basic information.  It takes the whole conversation in a different direction.  It's not quite the same as asking basic questions about how the vaccinations work.

 

I didn't approach a doctor asking about alternate vax schedules.

 

I took my kids to their first US well visit when they were 12mos & 15mos.  The doc did the standard look at them and then said at the end, "I'm going to go get the immunizations now."  I said, "can we talk about this?"  That was enough to set him off.

 

I had done enough research before going in that I had decided not to do vaxes at that visit.  I was taken aback that he was going to go do them without even checking whether I agreed.  For his part he was irritated that I had any thoughts of my own.  :/  He finally said he'd let me wait this time but I had to get the shots at their 18mo well check. 

 

Well, I never went back there.  We didn't go to any doctor again until my kids were 2.5.  After that point I was basically telling the doctors what was going to happen.  We were already off the "schedule" so there was no automatic "I'm gonna do the shots now."  One or two docs tried to push, but I pushed back.

[sewingmama]

Add me to the list of moms who have never left an immunisation appointment without copious information. Especially when immunising a baby!

 

Honestly, I wouldn't go back to a doctor who didn't provide me with info, and who wouldn't answer my questions. One strike, they're out.

I got a flu shot for myself yesterday and I left with two pages of info...not just on the vaccine I had but every other vaccine there is 😂. In fact I had to spend time convincing the nurse that my blocked sinuses were a sign of allergies and not a cold before she would consent to even give me the shot.

 

In Australia at least they are so careful about letting you know all the common, normal side effects so if something really does go wrong you will know the difference. Heck...I had to stay in the waiting room for 20 minutes after the shot before I could even leave just to make sure there was no immediate reaction...even though I've had it before.

[flyingiguana]

So if you get vaccinated and it doesn't work and you still get the disease that is not a failure of the vaccine? Just a "known limitation". That sounds like 1984 speak.

 

 

They're not designed to be 100% effective.  They're designed to do the best that can be done at this point.  Sure a higher rate of effectiveness would be nice, but that hasn't been developed yet.

 

However, what these vaccines CAN do is provide herd immunity if a threshold number of people are vaccinated.  This can be a better protection than individual protection -- it protects not only those who can't be vaccinated, but also those whose vaccinations failed.  Something to keep in mind is that anyone who's been vaccinated could fall into that latter group and not know it.  So it is in everyone's best interest to have a fully vaccinated population.  You never know if you're going to be the one who needs that herd immunity, even if you or your kids have had the vaccinations.

 

But I wouldn't call it failure.  These are just things we know about how vaccines work.  Nor would I call it the way they were designed.  That would imply that we wanted them to not be 100% effective.  Obviously, that would be the goal, but not all immune systems react the same.