Vax'ed v. non-vax'ed homeschoolers "study" shared in my local hs group

[TechWife]

Working there is a kind of immigration, so I would expect additional requirements to apply.  One would also have time to prepare for this, and likely the employer would cover the cost of the titers.

 

 

He has gone to other nations on short notice. His employers' travel department sends someone to the embassy with his passport and required documentation to get any required visas. I think his fastest turnaround was once 36 hours from notification to the time his plane took off. Only by already having the titers done could he have done this.

 

His employer paid for the titers (they only have to be done once), they also pay for his anti-malarials, his passport and his visas. I'm not sure that who pays for what is relevant to the discussion, though. Traveling abroad is not a right and most people who can afford travel expenses could manage to have their titers drawn once as well. They don't have to be repeated. The passport office already examines birth certificates, marriage certificates and photo ID's. It wouldn't be hard to throw a lab test result in the same envelope when you get your initial passport. 

[TechWife]

So are you in favor of requiring everyone landing in the US to have proof of their immunity status?

 

Again, that would be quite extreme.  And I'm not sure it's so easy for every traveler in the world to do that.  But if you think there should be a lobby for that, go for it.  There wouldn't be much need for a "temporary travel ban" once that was in place.  :/

 

 

No, and I didn't say that. I am simply pointing out that assessing and proving immunity status isn't hard. 

[SKL]

No, and I didn't say that. I am simply pointing out that assessing and proving immunity status isn't hard. 

 

And what would you suggest for people who don't vax for medical reasons?  Never travel?

 

[goldberry]

I don't think we are at a point now where travel should be dependent on vaccinations... but I could certainly imagine a time when it could be.  If the anti-vax movement becomes more prevalent and you start seeing more outbreaks, then don't be surprised if nations start to sit up and take notice.  

 

And no, I don't think people with valid medical reasons should be held back by that.  

[TechWife]

And what would you suggest for people who don't vax for medical reasons?  Never travel?

 

 

That would be up to their destination country. 

 

Would someone who wasn't immune to a harmful illness want to travel to a country where the illness is common? If vaccines are deemed too risky for medical reasons,  I imagine being exposed to the illness would be at least as risky, if not more, so I don't see this as being a big issue. Again, international travel is not a right. 

[FaithManor]

The destination country is entirely in control of who may enter and who may not. So it doesn't matter what one feels about the issue, as with other laws one abides by the law of the country they are entering. If that country says you must present a vaccination record for X diseases, then you produce it or don't get enter. No country is required to accommodate non citizens breaking their laws.

[SKL]

The destination country is entirely in control of who may enter and who may not. So it doesn't matter what one feels about the issue, as with other laws one abides by the law of the country they are entering. If that country says you must present a vaccination record for X diseases, then you produce it or don't get enter. No country is required to accommodate non citizens breaking their laws.

 

Well I'm not aware of any country that requires proof of measles vax to enter / to land at their airports.

 

I've traveled widely on 5 continents.  Never heard of a restriction like this.

[TechWife]

There are currently no vaccination requirements to enter the US as a tourist. 

 

Immunizations required to immigrate to the US: 

At this time,* vaccines for these diseases are currently required for U.S. immigration:

• Mumps
• Measles
• Rubella
• Polio
• Tetanus and diphtheria
• Pertussis
• Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib)
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Rotavirus
• Meningococcal disease
• Varicella
• Pneumococcal disease
• Seasonal influenza

To find out what about health risks and CDC recommended vaccines for various countries, visit their travel page. 

 

World Health Organization Vaccine Recommendations - includes country requirements for entry

 

World Health Organization Vaccine Lists - includes routine, selective and requirements for entry 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

This would require a *massive* increase in infrastructure.  Customs officers would have to see papers from every single person entering the US - even US residents returning from a vacation - for this to be effective.  We would need more customs officers, more people to create the paperwork for Americans going overseas, and more space in airports to process the passengers upon entry.  Other countries would need more people to document the vaccines given and do titers, and in some cases more access to vaccines in general.  And of course there would be a problem with forged documents, etc., so the process of documentation would get tougher (and more expensive) over time.  I think this is an idea that sounds good in theory, but isn't very practical in practice.

 

Passports are already required so all it would take is requiring proof of immunity or titers in order to get a U.S. passport or a visa in order to enter the U.S. If there is a concern about the legitimacy of foreign paperwork, there could be a lab tech on site at consuls in order to do titers. a

 

Yes, it would cost money but those costs would be borne by passport-seekers and foreigners seeking to visit the U.S. To keep deadly diseases out of the U.S. I absolutely think it's worth doing.

[SKL]

Not sure if a visa is required to enter the US from every other country.  I know a US passport allows one to enter many many countries without a visa.

[mamaraby]

Yes, I have proof of immunity from measles. I volunteer in healthcare and have had my titers done in order to prove immunity. I am in possession of the results and they have also been entered into my medical record at my primary care physicians' office.

 

ETA: To clarify, i originally had my titers drawn when my husband was exposed to the measles while on a business trip. I used them about six months later to prove immunity when I began working at the hospital.

It's a blood test and not terribly difficult/expensive. Most pregnant women have their titers done for rubella when pregnant. It's how I knew I was immune when pregnant with ds and not when pregnant with dd. I had a homebirth (CPM) with two children and still had my rubella titers drawn.

[TechWife]

Well I'm not aware of any country that requires proof of measles vax to enter / to land at their airports.

 

I've traveled widely on 5 continents.  Never heard of a restriction like this.

 

This discussion is broader than measles. While your travel experience may be extensive, it is not exhaustive. I'm quite sure you haven't been to some of the nations my husband has been to if you've never had to prove immunization status. Does he have to prove status for every country? No. Does he have to prove status for every disease? No. Has he ever had to prove immunization status? Absolutely. 

 

Additionally he has been pulled aside for "routine health screenings" in two different Eastern countries. 

 

The point people are making here is that it is within the rights of any country to determine who enters their country. If they choose to make immunization status a requirement, they can. In the US, proof of immunization status it is not a requirement to visit, but it is a requirement for a work or student visa. 

 

An even broader discussion is whether or not the immunization requirements should be expanded to include visitors, but that hasn't been undertaken extensively in this thread. 

 

I posted links to info (recommendations and requirements) from the WHO in another response in this thread if you're interested. 

[Joker]

.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Joker

[TechWife]

Not sure if a visa is required to enter the US from every other country.  I know a US passport allows one to enter many many countries without a visa.

 

Whether or not someone needs a Visa to enter the US depends on which country has issued their passport. This is a list of the countries that have a waiver - they can come in for 90 days or less without obtaining a Visa. Additionally, citizens of Canada and Bermuda don't need Visa's for visits.  This is the procedure for getting a visitor visa to enter the US for people from other nations. This information is readily available on the US State Department website. 

 

You can find out if you need a Visa to visit another country as a US Passport holder from the various countries' embassy websites. 

 

It's important to remember that it is the country that issued the passport that is the determining factor, not the country of origin for any one trip. For example, a student from India studying in the US on a student Visa taking a trip from the US to another country must meet that country's requirements as a citizen of India, not the US, even though the US is the origin for this specific trip and the student will be returning directly to the US. More than one exchange student has spent time in an airport waiting for a flight to return to the US when traveling for course requirements. 

[gardenmom5]

Whether or not someone needs a Visa to enter the US depends on which country has issued their passport. This is a list of the countries that have a waiver - they can come in for 90 days or less without obtaining a Visa. Additionally, citizens of Canada and Bermuda don't need Visa's for visits.  This is the procedure for getting a visitor visa to enter the US for people from other nations. This information is readily available on the US State Department website. 

 

You can find out if you need a Visa to visit another country as a US Passport holder from the various countries' embassy websites. 

 

It's important to remember that it is the country that issued the passport that is the determining factor, not the country of origin for any one trip. For example, a student from India studying in the US on a student Visa taking a trip from the US to another country must meet that country's requirements as a citizen of India, not the US, even though the US is the origin for this specific trip and the student will be returning directly to the US. More than one exchange student has spent time in an airport waiting for a flight to return to the US when traveling for course requirements. 

 

 

years ago we hosted some students from japan.  words can't describe the panic the sponsors exuded when they were giving the lecture to host families on "don't take your student to canada!".  (it's a hop skip and a jump to vancouver or victoria)  just because of this one item. 

[Bluegoat]

 

That's a good question.  Here's my thinking:  

 

It's not so much the number of unvaxed kids in the study being proportional to the number of unvaxed kids in the general population.  Rather, the question is whether the unvaxxed kids in the survey are representative/typical of unvaxxed kids in the general population (or even of unvaxxed kids in the homeschooling population); ditto for the vaxxed kids.

 

The researchers basically contacted 131 homeschooling organizations and asked them to send info about the study, with a link to the study questionnaire, to the groups' members.  They made it clear in the request what the study was about -  long-term effects of vaccines.  Some chose to answer, some didn't.  They got 415 responses (which included 666 children).  They do not report how many mothers were asked, but that's an average of only 3 moms per homeschooling organization, so not a great response.  The main problem with that approach is that you don't get a random sample.

• Some moms might be more motivated to answer the survey because they are very anti-vax and want to share how healthy their children are. Moms who didn't vax and have kids with health issues might be less motivated to answer.  Thus it is unwise to extrapolate the data from these unvaxxing moms to unvaxxing moms in general.
• The unvaxxing moms are also overwhelmingly middle to upper class, married, older, educated, and white.  Their children are more likely to be healthy than the general population of children, whether vaxxed or not, because they are more likely to have access to quality food, adequate housing, and health care.  Thus it is unwise to extrapolate from the experiences of these moms to the general population.
• The fact that the sample included such a large number of unvaxxed or partially vaxxed children seems to me to be out of proportion with even the homeschooling population, though I don't have data to confirm that.  If it is the case, it means that the sample is disproportionately skewed towards low/no vax families, which leads me to question how representative of / typical of the homeschooling population the vaxxing responders are.  That is, the problem is not that there are more no/low vaxxers in the study group, but that the study group is not a random sample of homeschoolers combined with the fact that the responders are self-selecting, which leads to questions about whether the results can be extrapolated to homeschoolers at large, let alone the population at large.

Other things I noticed:

• Vaxxed kids were more likely to have been diagnosed with ear infections and pneumonia.  However, I wonder if the non/low vaxxers were less likely to take a child to the doctor to get this kind of diagnosis rather than treating it at home.  The same goes for allergies and eczema.  Again, the assumption seems to be that the two groups of families (vaxxing vs. low/no vaxxing) are similar in all other ways, but I don't think that's likely to be the case given the selection methods. 

• In fact, those with at least some vaccinations "were significantly more likely than the unvaccinated to use medication for allergies (20.0% vs. 1.2%...), to have used antibiotics in the past 12 months (30.8% vs. 15.4%...), and to have used fever medications at least once (90.7% vs. 67.8%...). The vaccinated were also more likely to have seen a doctor for a routine checkup in the past 12 months (57.6% vs. 37.2%...), visited a dentist during the past year (89.4% vs. 80.5%...), [and] visited a doctor or clinic due to illness in the past year (36.0% vs. 16.0%...)".  This can be seen as an indication of more sickness, or of a different reaction to sickness.  In other words, did the vaxxed kids see the doctor etc. more because they were sicker, or because their parents were more likely to take them to the doctor when they were sick?

• It also seems likely that families who don't vax are also less likely to spend the time and money to get formal diagnoses from health care professionals for things like ADHD, autism, and learning disabilities.  If you don't trust the medical community when it comes to their vax recommendations, why would you want their label for your child's behavioral or learning issues?  (Especially if you are homeschooling and can make the needed accommodations yourself without need for a label.)
• Obviously, some people don't vax for medical reasons, but given the sample population and the large number of non-vaxers as opposed to partial vaxxers, I am assuming that the preponderance of non-vaxxers in the survey do so out of concerns about vaccine side-effects outweighing benefits.  Interestingly, the researchers do not report asking the respondents about the reasons for their vax choices, although they do ask about their reasons for choosing homeschooling.  

As the researchers themselves stated, "additional research is needed" to see if the findings are replicated "in studies with larger samples and stronger research designs."  

 

 

Yes, these are the things that seemed questionable to me.  It's just not that strong a study.  But it isn't because there are a lot of unvaccinated kids.

[Dmmetler]

And realistically, you have to show a shot record to take a single college class locally. I think most US citizens are pretty used to shot record requirements for school, some jobs (I had to file mine to teach early childhood, and had had a ridiculous number of TB tests), etc. Having to include a copy in a passport application doesn't seem a big deal.

[Bluegoat]

Could you really refuse entry to citizins?  Where would they go?

[SKL]

People are saying it's easy to get titers, but that is in the USA.  I don't know how easy or hard it is in other countries.

 

I asked my immigrant friend from a developing country.  She said a doctor provided an immunization record for her visa process.  She also said the record was totally bogus, and that is the norm where she comes from.  So there is that.

[SKL]

And realistically, you have to show a shot record to take a single college class locally. I think most US citizens are pretty used to shot record requirements for school, some jobs (I had to file mine to teach early childhood, and had had a ridiculous number of TB tests), etc. Having to include a copy in a passport application doesn't seem a big deal.

 

The rules are different here - depending on where you attend and how many hours you take.  Also, you can get an exemption (religious, moral, philosophical, medical).  But yes, for traditional students living on campus, immunization records are requested.  That was not the case when I was in school.  The last time I needed my "baby shots" record was 1979, and that was mostly filled in by my mom - not sure how the passport office would look at that, even assuming the document could still be found.

 

My kids' shot records are also largely based on my kids' handwritten "baby shot records" from when they were in their birth country - which may or may not be accurate.  The US doctor entered them in their system, so now they look nice and official - at least to the school and scout folks.

 

Once I asked our doctor to order titers for my kids, but he refused to order them.  I don't remember the reason given.

[momacacia]

A sample of 666 kids (so small! and come in, couldn't they have gotten 665 or 667 and been a lot less obvious!), self-reporting...it's a mess. Would be hard to really get solid research like this on the general population.

 

I would be fascinated with a really well-done study on this, though. I talk to multiple parents/grandparents in varying groups (not just homeschool land), who question the vaccines they have their kids or saw changes in grandkids, etc., I have to say it has me questioning, too. Would be great to have research like this done...done well.

[Crimson Wife]

Could you really refuse entry to citizins?  Where would they go?

 

If the immunization/titer requirement were made a pre-requisite for getting a passport, they would know that before they chose to leave the U.S. If they did not want to comply, they could simply vacation domestically.

 

[vonfirmath]

Could you really refuse entry to citizins?  Where would they go?

 

During the ebola epidemic, I know Samaritan's Purse went to extra efforts to make sure a citizen with ebola would be allowed in.  Which leads me to believe that the US could deny entry.

[Laura Corin]

 

Last I heard, even UK and Japan do not require measles vax.

I don't quite understand the 'even'. MMR is recommended in the UK but not required for residents or visitors.

[justasque]

No one I know in person knows that I no longer vax.

 

 

I am an anti-vaxxer. I never ever tell anyone that I know in person, ever.

 

I'm just going to say it.  That is flat-out irresponsible.  

The people around you who are immune-compromised, newborns, pregnant moms, the fragile elderly, and those particularly vulnerable to certain diseases for other reasons, need this information to care for their health.  You may not be aware of their circumstances, so you cannot know when exposure may be cause for concern and when it is more likely to be benign.

And consider this - if you have an unvaxxed kid, you need this information from others to care for your own child's health.  

Please think seriously about the potential ramifications of your choice. Pray or meditate on how "do unto others" applies in your situation.

Please - seriously consider giving others the information they need to make their own informed choices about if and when they will expose themselves or their vulnerable loved ones to your unvaxxed kids. 

[SKL]

During the ebola epidemic, I know Samaritan's Purse went to extra efforts to make sure a citizen with ebola would be allowed in.  Which leads me to believe that the US could deny entry.

 

If a person is sick, that is one thing.  If the person is not sick but just not immune, that is another.

 

I'm not saying a country can't have a law requiring vaxes - countries can make all sorts of laws.  But it would be very unusual to make it illegal for a person to cross a border without vaccination papers / titers.

 

Though, perhaps this has been considered in the past and rejected.  If so, it would be interesting to read the discussion.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If a person is sick, that is one thing. If the person is not sick but just not immune, that is another.

 

I'm not saying a country can't have a law requiring vaxes - countries can make all sorts of laws. But it would be very unusual to make it illegal for a person to cross a border without vaccination papers / titers.

 

Though, perhaps this has been considered in the past and rejected. If so, it would be interesting to read the discussion.

Some countries do for certain diseases (example: yellow fever).

[SKL]

I'm just going to say it.  That is flat-out irresponsible.  

The people around you who are immune-compromised, newborns, pregnant moms, the fragile elderly, and those particularly vulnerable to certain diseases for other reasons, need this information to care for their health.  You may not be aware of their circumstances, so you cannot know when exposure may be cause for concern and when it is more likely to be benign.

And consider this - if you have an unvaxxed kid, you need this information from others to care for your own child's health.  

Please think seriously about the potential ramifications of your choice. Pray or meditate on how "do unto others" applies in your situation.

Please - seriously consider giving others the information they need to make their own informed choices about if and when they will expose themselves or their vulnerable loved ones to your unvaxxed kids. 

 

How many of us here haven't had our boosters and are therefore just as dangerous as an unvaxed child?  Should we all carry a sign announcing that?  What about toddlers whose parents are spacing their vaxes out?  What about people who are not vaxed for medical reasons?  Is that really any of my business?

 

I would agree that if there is an outbreak anywhere near, one who is more likely to spread that needs to be more careful - and so does everyone who is immune compromised, very old, and very young.

[Butter]

I don't quite understand the 'even'. MMR is recommended in the UK but not required for residents or visitors.

 

Which is pretty much exactly the same as in the US.

 

Laura, do they require MMR for school entrance there?  Are there exemptions like in the US?  While we were in Ireland in 2013 there was a measles epidemic in Wales, actually pretty much exactly where we would have crossed on the ferry to go to the UK (because that also coincided with lots of snow up where Jamie's aunts and uncles live, we ended up changing out plans and stayed in Ireland the whole month).

Edited May 8, 2017 by Butter

[Laura Corin]

Which is pretty much exactly the same as in the US.

 

Laura, do they require MMR for school entrance there?  Are there exemptions like in the US?  While we were in Ireland in 2013 there was a measles epidemic in Wales, actually pretty much exactly where we would have crossed on the ferry to go to the UK (because that also coincided with lots of snow up where Jamie's aunts and uncles live, we ended up changing out plans and stayed in Ireland the whole month).

 

No, vaccinations are not required for school entrance.  If the children go on a school trip, the permission form will ask when the child last had a tetanus jab, but only for information's sake.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Bluegoat]

During the ebola epidemic, I know Samaritan's Purse went to extra efforts to make sure a citizen with ebola would be allowed in.  Which leads me to believe that the US could deny entry.

 

So, where would they go?  You can't just go off and live in some other country.

[SKL]

So, where would they go?  You can't just go off and live in some other country.

 

I guess in the case of a person with ebola, back to the country where they contracted it?

 

I would also hope/assume they were not on a commercial aircraft ....

 

[Laura Corin]

I guess in the case of a person with ebola, back to the country where they contracted it?

 

I would also hope/assume they were not on a commercial aircraft ....

 

 

Visas are usually for a specific number of entries (often one).  So US citizen goes to volunteer in an epidemic area, comes back with that or another illness, and can't return to the previous country because s/he no longer has a valid visa.  I've dealt with visa issues in several countries and the border guards don't tend to be magnanimous.

 

Two British nurses who volunteered to work in the Ebola epidemic came back with the disease.  Should they have been sent back to die?

Edited May 8, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Bluegoat]

I guess in the case of a person with ebola, back to the country where they contracted it?

 

I would also hope/assume they were not on a commercial aircraft ....

 

 

You can't just fly into another country and expect to be let stay when you aren't a citizen.  They will just fly you right back where you are a citizen.

[Crimson Wife]

 

I'm not saying a country can't have a law requiring vaxes - countries can make all sorts of laws.  But it would be very unusual to make it illegal for a person to cross a border without vaccination papers / titers.

 

We already require a valid passport and for many foreigners a visa. It would be very simple to make proof of immunization or titers a requirement for getting a U.S. passport and a visa for foreigners.

 

If you don't feel like getting your booster shots, just stay here in the U.S. and don't go overseas where you could easily pick up a disease and bring it back to this country.

[goldberry]

How many of us here haven't had our boosters and are therefore just as dangerous as an unvaxed child? 

 

http://www.immune.org.nz/duration-protection-efficacy-and-effectiveness

 

According to this chart, measles is lifelong in more than 96% of cases.  Some of the others are shorter, but many are around 20 years.  Interesting info though.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

We already require a valid passport and for many foreigners a visa. It would be very simple to make proof of immunization or titers a requirement for getting a U.S. passport and a visa for foreigners.

 

If you don't feel like getting your booster shots, just stay here in the U.S. and don't go overseas where you could easily pick up a disease and bring it back to this country.

 

Legally entry for non-citizens is very different than reentry for citizens.  Barring exceptional circumstances, a vaccination requirement for citizens could potentially be seen as an infringement upon the right to travel.

[SKL]

Visas are usually for a specific number of entries (often one).  So US citizen goes to volunteer in an epidemic area, comes back with that or another illness, and can't return to the previous country because s/he no longer has a valid visa.  I've dealt with visa issues in several countries and the border guards don't tend to be magnanimous.

 

Two British nurses who volunteered to work in the Ebola epidemic came back with the disease.  Should they have been sent back to die?

 

I did not say they should be sent back, I'm saying that I guess that is what would happen if the US did not allow entry.  Unless another country granted entry.

 

I'm not the person advocating for keeping US citizens out.  But I do know they quarantine people at times - Ebola seems like it would be one of those times ....  Not really sure exactly how that works.

[Laura Corin]

I did not say they should be sent back, I'm saying that I guess that is what would happen if the US did not allow entry.  Unless another country granted entry.

 

I'm not the person advocating for keeping US citizens out.  But I do know they quarantine people at times - Ebola seems like it would be one of those times ....  Not really sure exactly how that works.

 

What happened with the British nurses was that they were brought into the country and transported under quarantine conditions to a secure hospital unit that was designated for such situations.  I'm sure all developed countries have these arrangements.  For that matter, I came back from China and started developing symptoms thirty years ago that caused me to be sent to the isolation hospital outside my own city in the UK.  

[SKL]

What happened with the British nurses was that they were brought into the country and transported under quarantine conditions to a secure hospital unit that was designated for such situations.  I'm sure all developed countries have these arrangements.  For that matter, I came back from China and started developing symptoms thirty years ago that caused me to be sent to the isolation hospital outside my own city in the UK.  

 

When we had some ebola cases come back, I think they took them to a larger hospital but in a quarantined ward.  (I could be wrong about the details, but that situation was on the news a lot at the time.)  That said, I could understand why they had to figure it out with the US authorities beforehand.

 

I agree that one hopes all developed countries (and pretty much every country with an international airport) have a system for caring for quarantined travelers.  I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.

 

[KungFuPanda]

Soooo . . . . immunizations GIVE you bad genes? I thought I could science, but I do not understand science-ing at that level.

[Crimson Wife]

Legally entry for non-citizens is very different than reentry for citizens.  Barring exceptional circumstances, a vaccination requirement for citizens could potentially be seen as an infringement upon the right to travel.

 

By that logic, requiring a passport is an "infringement upon the right to travel". Yet nobody objects to the requirement to have a valid passport.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

By that logic, requiring a passport is an "infringement upon the right to travel". Yet nobody objects to the requirement to have a valid passport.

 

Proving identity is generally not considered an an infringement (need to know that someone is a citizen outweighs the burden of having a passport).  Requiring proof of vaccination to reenter when you are already are citizen likely wouldn't pass that test unless there was a more specific threat to public health.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Soooo . . . . immunizations GIVE you bad genes? I thought I could science, but I do not understand science-ing at that level.

 

That is a fairly common belief among the anti-vax harpies at places like mothering.com.

[creekland]

I'm not saying a country can't have a law requiring vaxes - countries can make all sorts of laws.  But it would be very unusual to make it illegal for a person to cross a border without vaccination papers / titers.

 

Cote D'Ivoire requires a Yellow Fever vax (and proof of it) to enter their country.  I don't think we need that in the US since Yellow Fever isn't really around here and we have decent medical facilities to deal with it/contain it if someone brought it in, but there are countries that have laws about vaxs that are important to their area.

[Bluegoat]

By that logic, requiring a passport is an "infringement upon the right to travel". Yet nobody objects to the requirement to have a valid passport.

 

How would anyone know you had the rights of a citizen without some way to show who you are? And other countries don't give you a right to travel into them, even if your own gives you the right to go and come back.

[KungFuPanda]

That is a fairly common belief among the anti-vax harpies at places like mothering.com.

Do they say roughly HOW this would work? I know that's not the only red flag in the article, but it's the one that has me fascinated. Do they say they alter your genes by XYZ or do they just write "causes bad genes" and move on never expecting to explain themselves.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Do they say roughly HOW this would work? I know that's not the only red flag in the article, but it's the one that has me fascinated. Do they say they alter your genes by XYZ or do they just write "causes bad genes" and move on never expecting to explain themselves.

 

They believe it alters genes somehow.  They don't get into specifics because it is all woo anyway.

[TechWife]

Proving identity is generally not considered an an infringement (need to know that someone is a citizen outweighs the burden of having a passport).  Requiring proof of vaccination to reenter when you are already are citizen likely wouldn't pass that test unless there was a more specific threat to public health.

 

 

The proof could be required as part of the paperwork need for the issuance of a new passport or the renewal of an old passport. Compared to many other laws that have been enacted over the years, it would be a piece of cake to phase this in. 

 

New passport applications require either:  proof of immunity to selected diseases OR completed/in progress immunization record

Renewal passport applications require either: proof of immunity to selected diseases OR  completed/in progress immunization record

 

At the end of the phase in period:

New passports: continue to provide proof of immunity to selected diseases OR completed/in progress immunization record

Renewal passports: If the immunizations were in progress at the time the passport was issued or last renewed, then the person has to provide either proof of immunity or a completed/in progress immunization record. 

 

I'm not really advocating for or against such a provision, I'm looking at from a purely logistical standpoint.

 

How specific of a threat to public health would something have to be to require proof of immunization in order to get a passport?

 

Currently, I don't know that there are any circumstances when a citizen can be denied reentry into the United States (although I imagine some get arrested when they return due to having committed crimes). Would there be a circumstance when this would be appropriate? Worldwide pandemic? Pandemic of what? Its' a question I think we need to grapple with - international travel is more common and I think it will only increase. I hope someone at the State Department and/or the CDC is thinking ahead about some of these things. But then again, would that even be possible to think about/study/propose without causing nationwide concern/panic? Maybe it's already part of some top secret emergency plan.  

[LisaKinVA]

I guess the bigger question in all of this mess is what is "fully vaccinated?"  My kids cannot attend the DoDEA school without a Flu vaccine (or a religious waiver), even though that is still considered optional by the Navy.

 

Even within the G-8 the number of vaccines between the US (49) and Italy (32?) can vary wildly.  If Germany only requires 5 doses of MMR and the US requires 6, is that a disqualifying reason for entry to the US?  Is Japan's vaccination schedule correct?  or should the world be following more closely to the US number?  Is there any body of work that says 49 doses is superior in disease prevention and herd immunity than 30?  

 

For me, it's not a question that vaccines work -- but I have this nagging doubt that more vaccines (let alone more combo vaccines) are better. 

 

My kids are all fully vaccinated (for mandatory vaccines).  Each one was vaccinated on a different schedule (youngest was most closely vaccinated on-schedule, but we still delayed vaccines until 6mos.) 

 

It seems resistance to vaccines grows as the number of *required* vaccines grows.  Would there be less resistance if we reduced the number of required vaccines?