Vax'ed v. non-vax'ed homeschoolers "study" shared in my local hs group

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ever? Like no kid has ever developed autism as part of a vaccine reaction? 

 

 

Considering there is no link between vaccinations and autism, yes, I will say ever.

[SKL]

For the most part, you don't even need to ask people if their kids are vaxxed. In my experience, the anti-vaxxers will start ranting at anyone and everyone about the evils of Big Pharma and vaccines causing autism and aluminum adjuvants and on and on and on. They typically out themselves if you spend more than a few minutes with them.

 

 

The loud ones do.  The quiet ones ... you will never know.  And it most likely won't matter either way.

 

Not all unvaxed kids are children of "anti-vaxxers."

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't know anyone who says that vaccines never, ever cause any kind of medical problem. However, like with most things, it's extremely rare. It certainly doesn't happen often enough, imho, to justify not vaccinating healthy children with no history of a vaccine reaction.

 

Could a severe vaccine reaction cause some kind of brain injury that in turn causes the person to be diagnosed with autism? I suppose it's possible. But again, it would be very, very rare. I'm sorry, but someone saying their two year old was vaccinated and then a month later developed regressive autism does not mean the shots caused the autism any more than breathing air caused autism.

 

Also, as someone who is pregnant and living right in the middle of two cities having a big measles outbreak that was traced back to unvaxxed populations, I have very little patience for anti-vaxxers at the moment.

 

+1

[SKL]

Vaccines greatly reduce the risk of a child catching an illness, but they don't eliminate it completely. For example, the MMR vaccine is 93% effective at preventing measles. It's not 100%, but I'll gratefully get my kids vaxxed and live with the 7% chance.

 

Exactly.  We live with the small chance that our kids may get sick even though they are vaxed.  Not much is added by trying to manage that tiny risk by screening which kids we allow near ours.

Edited May 7, 2017 by SKL

[Mergath]

The loud ones do.  The quiet ones ... you will never know.  And it most likely won't matter either way.

 

Not all unvaxed kids are children of "anti-vaxxers."

 

 

No, but I have no problem with people who don't vaccinate because they have a legitimate medical reason not to. It's not like they have a choice.

 

The others do. And their ignorant, uninformed choice not to vaccinate because they think vaccines are made of aborted babies or whatever nuttery is going around this week puts everyone else at risk. Including the kids who legitimately can't be vaccinated.

[Mergath]

Exactly.  We live with the small chance that our kids may get sick even though they are vaxed.  Not much is added by trying to manage that tiny risk by screening which kids we allow near ours.

 

My state is having a measles outbreak at this very moment because of unvaccinated children. Andrew Wakefield and his buddies literally flew here, targeted vulnerable populations of refugees, and convinced them that vaccines are some crazy government experiment to give their kids autism. Seriously. I wish I was joking. So the vaccination rates for those groups fell to something like 40%, and now they're having a measles outbreak.  The risk of infection IS higher among unvaccinated groups.

 

[SKL]

My state is having a measles outbreak at this very moment because of unvaccinated children. Andrew Wakefield and his buddies literally flew here, targeted vulnerable populations of refugees, and convinced them that vaccines are some crazy government experiment to give their kids autism. Seriously. I wish I was joking. So the vaccination rates for those groups fell to something like 40%, and now they're having a measles outbreak.  The risk of infection IS higher among unvaccinated groups.

 

 

So you won't be letting your kids play with refugee kids I guess.

 

Many many people who have immigrated to the USA are not vaccinated the way we are, regardless of whoever Andrew Wakefield is.  Also if you travel outside the US, you will encounter thousands of unvaccinated people.

 

I choose not to worry about that small risk, which I can do little about anyway.

[gardenmom5]

UC Davis MIND Institute has debunked the "it's all just better diagnosis" claim and has shown that there actually HAS been an increase in autism.

 

 

by today's standards and awareness - I would have been diagnosed asd. (and capd) . . .instead I got speech therapy and was an outcast because I was "different".  by stereotypical girl asd.

 

I don't doubt the existence of vaccine injuries. I know they definitely happen. What I have an issue with is the throughly debunked notion that autism is a vaccine injury.

 

early after dudeling's diagnosis as I was reading up, I came across something written by the head of the yale child developmet center that specializes in autism.   she said after thoroughly interviewing parents - every single child diagnosed with autism DID show signs of something being off prior to the vax the anti-vax'ers complain is the culprit.

 

I wish more anti-vax folks could talk with my grandparent's generation - about how many were lost to polio, measles, etc, back then - more real life stuff instead of hype.

 

Vaccinations aren't perfect and a few are harmed by them.  I don't think anyone disputes that.  But far, far fewer have issues than those who died or had major issues from the diseases they work to prevent.

 

I wonder if the younger generation even knows anyone IRL who had polio and had leftover lifelong issues from it (wheelchair bound or similar).

 

there was a woman at church who was in a wheelchair due to polio.

 

before 2dd even started pharm school - she was voraciously reading about salk. (and other vaccines)

 

I don't know anyone who says that vaccines never, ever cause any kind of medical problem. However, like with most things, it's extremely rare. It certainly doesn't happen often enough, imho, to justify not vaccinating healthy children with no history of a vaccine reaction.

 

Could a severe vaccine reaction cause some kind of brain injury that in turn causes the person to be diagnosed with autism? I suppose it's possible. But again, it would be very, very rare. I'm sorry, but someone saying their two year old was vaccinated and then a month later developed regressive autism does not mean the shots caused the autism any more than breathing air caused autism.

 

Also, as someone who is pregnant and living right in the middle of two cities having a big measles outbreak that was traced back to unvaxxed populations, I have very little patience for anti-vaxxers at the moment.

 

congratulations on your new little one - and I hope you stay safe.

 

I'd read about the outbreak.  unfortunate - and since it's so early, the numbers are still climbing.

 

reminds me of when there was a measles outbreak going around in india - they were vaccinating like crazy to the surrounding villages in an attempt to stop it.   and some religious clerics went around telling their followers not to have their children immunized because it was an evil government plot to  harm their children. . . . the other mother's had their children immunized - but their followers were left with sick, damaged or dying children.

there are truly evil and perverted people in the world.

[LucyStoner]

Ever? Like no kid has ever developed autism as part of a vaccine reaction?

 

 

This is a sincere question, but I totally get it if you don't want to engage. I'm curious, which vaccine injuries do you think are valid? Is autism the only medical issue that you think is never caused by vaccinations (assuming that's what you meant), or are there other medical disorders/symptoms/reactions that you also think are never caused by vaccinations?

 

I ask, because I am completely unconvinced on both ends- that vaccinations are always or never the cause of any given infirmaty. I believe our immune systems are complex and not completely understood. And, no, I don't trust the marriage of science, government, and big pharma that keeps telling me to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

But like I said, we vaccinate. My kids have always responded very well and we have no reason to avoid them. We even do flu shots.

I have two sons with autism. I have throughly reviewed the research. No one has demonstrated a credible link between ASD and vaccines. Many researchers have demonstrated that there is not a causal link. I am quite confident in this. I'd post a crap ton of links here but, bluntly, it's all there for people to find and I think anyone who is genuinely interested can find all they need to know.

 

Vaccine injuries can be very severe and vary. Neurological symptoms, disability, even death. They do not include ASD. A lot of time has been invested in studying this. If there was a causal link, I really think it would have been found by now. I don't discount the role of environmental factors. I just think it's bullshit that one of those factors is vaccines.

Edited May 7, 2017 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

Both of my sons had symptoms before the they received the vaccine most often erroneously blamed for ASD. While not conclusive my family tree is littered with people with ASD dx or suspected ASD. We live all over the world and do different things WRT: vaccinations and other choices. Yet many children in my son's generation of my family have all been dx. Obviously not conclusive but I'm definitely not ruling out genetics.

Edited May 7, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

The loud ones do. The quiet ones ... you will never know. And it most likely won't matter either way.

 

Not all unvaxed kids are children of "anti-vaxxers."

 

It's a big deal around other children who are too little to have full vaccines yet, or those who are elderly or immune compromised and cannot tolerate certain vaccines.

 

Additionally, herd immunity only works if enough of the herd is immune, and with too many people opting out that fails as a public health measure.

[Χά�ων]

I was exposed to whooping cough by unvaxxed children whose parents brought them to a park day while sick. I did not know I had it when I accidently exposed my 87 year old grandmother with congestive heart failure. Turned out the parents suspected but felt it was a minor issue and took their sick children out to be around other people, including pregnant women and infants too young to be protected by the vaccine.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Back in the early nineties when it started to become popular to fear vaccines, I remember many people talking about exceptions, that is, when they would go against their preference and immunize their children.

 

Basically, if they could be persuaded that this risk of the vax was less than the risk of the disease,

During an outbreak or epidemic,

If the VPD made an undeniable comeback (goodbye, herd immunity),

Or if they had to put their kids in school.

 

We were just beginning to grasp the rise in autism. Wakefield was doing his thing. Dr. Sears provided a selective-delayed schedule that he believed was reasonable, given the low prevalence (then) of disease. And most people had an understanding of how immunizations work. So it didn't seem unreasonable to delay or skip some vaxes, back then.

 

But I'm not seeing ANY of the above, among anti-vaxers of today.

 

The autism link has been debunked. Wakefield is known to be a fraud. Pediatricians are refusing to have non-vaxed children in their practice. The diseases have come back, because too many have skipped their shots. People have NO idea how vaccines work, and they learn to fear medicine and science at home *schooling* conferences. They will not make exceptions for the greater good. They assume that VPDs aren't even dangerous.

[Bluegoat]

 

Here's something I wrote for another forum - 

 

There is *so* much scientifically wrong with this study, and even worse the way it was reported in the article, that it's hard to know where to start. The most important thing to understand is that they used a non-random, non-representative, self-selected sample of homeschoolers, and that they attempted to extrapolate their results to the general population. Of the people who volunteered to participate in the study:

 

92.5% were white.

91.2% had at least some college education.

69.3% made over $50K per year.

91.2% were Christian.

93.7% were married.

And a whopping 70% were either unvaccinated or partially vaccinated, with 39% completely unvaccinated.

 

This is not representative of the homeschooling community, let alone the general population.

 

Again, the group studied was NOT randomly chosen from the homeschooling population. Rather, the study was described to potential participants as looking at “whether vaccination is linked in any way to children's long-term healthâ€; it is thus no surprise that mothers who choose not to vaccinate their children were dramatically over-represented in the study population. 

 

The authors (of the study) are careful to explain *some* of the limits of their study, but the article written about the study comes to a number of conclusions that simply aren’t supported by the data. For those concerned about these issues, I encourage you to read the actual study, rather than the inflammatory and misleading article, and to keep in mind that the people who participated in the study are in no way a random sample. 

 

 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at here - why would the number of unvaccinated people compared to the regular population would not need to be proportional for a study like this?  I thought the point was to look at a population of non-vaccinated kids and compare the rate of illness to a control population of non-vaccinated kids?  They would need a significant number of unvaccinated children to do this.  Just like a study of kids with a heart condition would include more than the normal proportion of kids with a heart condition.

[FaithManor]

I was exposed to whooping cough by unvaxxed children whose parents brought them to a park day while sick. I did not know I had it when I accidently exposed my 87 year old grandmother with congestive heart failure. Turned out the parents suspected but felt it was a minor issue and took their sick children out to be around other people, including pregnant women and infants too young to be protected by the vaccine.

My niece's this deliberately when her child had pertussis which had been diagnosed by the pediatrician. Though he warned her that her child must remain isolated, quarantined at home, she thought she was doing the community a favor by exposing them to the disease. She sent her to school - eventually the school figured out she had whooping cough and refused to let her attend - to the playground, the grocery store, you name it. Just thinking about the trip to the pharmacy where she buys her vitamins makes me shiver....so many sick people. I have to wonder who she killed by refusing to stay home.

 

I have one with an immune issue who also had a grandparent dying of bone cancer at the time so her vaccines were delayed for several months, and then done a delayed schedule. We had to be very careful, but by the time she was five she was caught up except that the dtap formula had not been created yet, and the pertussis portion was what she reacted so dangerously too. She was given dt only at that point. When dtap came out, then she was able to get caught up on pertussis.

 

Thankfully, her little boy did not inherit the issue and has been getting his vaxes with no issue. Since my brother and one of his five children nearly died of potentially lethal complications of over reaction to vaccines - my brother was even one of those crazy rare ones that got Guillain Barre syndrome after a flu vaccine in his thirties - there is definitely something that runs in the family so her pediatrician only gives him one or two shots at a time so his schedule is spread out. So far so good.

 

I struggle with what to do about those that do not vax without a valid medical reason because it is life threatening to the child and potentially to others in the community. The Amish here do no vaccines, and they do have pertussis, measles, pox, etc. go around. But they also live fairly isolated from others and do not take their children out much in town so it stays within their families.

 

The science is solid. Incontrovertible. Why is their no small pox in this nation? Vaccines. Why do people no longer die of lock jaw? Vaccines. Why do schools no longer have diphtheria sweep through the student body killing children left and right? Vaccines. Why was a vaccine developed for Meningitis A, as well as B? Because those disease are lethal!!

 

Medical technology cannot save every person who gets these diseases. I have heard this argument before, "Well, we have treatments now so my child does not need vaccines." Sorry. This is an invalid argument. The diseases targeted are the ones for whom the treatment success is iffy or non existent.

 

Given that not vaxing when there is no medical contraindication puts the child's life at risk as well as everyone else who does have a contraindication, it is difficult to define a line between personal liberty and community safety.

[Saddlemomma]

 

And the aversion to tetanus itself I simply do not understand. It is nearly 100% lethal and can be picked up from a simple cut, the prick of a rose thorn. My niece will not even allow this vax despite the fact that we have had Amish horses in the area die of tetanus because they aren't vaxed. If the Amish neighbor's horse can get it, her kids most certainly can!

 

 

 

I have an aversion to the tetanus shot because it could literally kill me.  

 

The last tetanus shot I got was 32 years ago.  I was 21 and cut myself.  I went to the Dr's; got the shot; went home. Within hours my arm at the shot site started to swell and itch.  I showed it to my mom who was a surgical nurse.  She said I was having a mild reaction and not to worry, a little swelling was normal. By the next morning (a Saturday), my the shot site was the size of a baseball with blisters covering it, and I was out of it.

 

I never said anything else to my mother. Instead, I laid on the couch because I didn't feel very well. A while later, I noticed that every movie I tried to watch would be over within minutes.  That's when I realized I was going in and out of consciousness. I decided I needed some air.  When I got up, still really groggy, I vaguely noticed I couldn't support my head.  It was like my neck was a wet noodle. Amazingly, I was so out of it, I wasn't alarmed by this.  I got outside and sat on the steps of our house.  This is when my mom and dad got home.  Mom took one look at me and rushed me into the ER.

 

I was under observation for a few hours.  The only thing the ER Drs. could figure is that the tetanus shot actually gave me a mild case of tetanus.  Back then, the shot came in two different serums: human and horse.  The Dr who gave me the shot couldn't recall and had no records of which he had given me.  Wonderful.  I was told, by the ER docs. that I should never, ever receive another shot under any circumstances.  If I did, I had a 50/50 chance of it killing me the next time.

 

So, that's why I don't get Tetanus.  Everyone else in my family does.  However, because of the Tetanus fiasco and the fact that my mother has developed, over the years, reactions to otherwise normal vaccines and medications -- as well as me, I'm very careful not to just willy-nilly grab the newest and most promising vaccines.  I'm very careful because of our medical history.  Youngest DD had delayed shots and NONE of us get the flu shot ever.  So far, we're about the only ones who DON'T get the flu every year.

[gardenmom5]

    NONE of us get the flu shot ever.  So far, we're about the only ones who DON'T get the flu every year.

 

I've had the flu shot twice.  the first time, my little voice went from encouraging to *demanding* I get it -  was countering every single reason I gave why I couldn't.  (lack of insurance, unemployment, besides previously,- I hardly ever got the flu)  little voice finally changed tactics and got me to a drug store where there was a visiting nurse doing flu shots.  so, I paid my $20 and got the shot.

 

six? eight?  weeks later - I got the flu.  I was almost as sick with flu as I've ever been.  little voice told me - if I hadn't had that shot, I would have been in the hospital - with no insurance.  I even had it again - milder - a couple months after that.  I'd had a compromised immune system that year. (that actually went on for a few years.)

 

the 2nd time I was pg (reduced immune system) and had had pneumonia which was really slow to recover.   even when I was getting it, I felt like it was more of a covering bases formality than necessity.  I didn't get sick.

[nrg]

My mom had polio (I'm in my 30s). 

 

She's in very bad health now due to post-polio syndrome. She's had extreme nerve damage that has hindered her for a decade and now has severe back problems due to the lousy muscles she has due to polio paralysis. This is real stuff.

 

Emily

 

 

My mother also had polio. She was 28 in 1951 and was left paraplegic with limited use of her arms. Despite this, my parents subsequently had 3 children. I was the March-of-Dimes miracle baby in 1957.  In her later years, she was completely paralyzed from post-polio syndrome, able to move only her head  in her last year. Polio is very real and not yet eradicated from the earth. Every time a group fails to vaccinate, this disease rears its ugly head.

I promised my mother that any children I would have would be vaccinated. They have all been vaccinated. One has autism. His symptoms were clear before the vaccination.

 

This post is purely for pathos purposes. I have done my homework and read the research and recognize the highly agendized slant to everything published. This is difficult stuff. Meaningful parental choices have to be made from biased, curated, limited information, so that what could be a reasoned decision becomes a bizarre act of faith.  We do the best we can for our children.

[bethben]

I was exposed to whooping cough by unvaxxed children whose parents brought them to a park day while sick. I did not know I had it when I accidently exposed my 87 year old grandmother with congestive heart failure. Turned out the parents suspected but felt it was a minor issue and took their sick children out to be around other people, including pregnant women and infants too young to be protected by the vaccine.

I've seen his happen to. Anti-vax homeschool mom brings her sick child to a group activity attended by a majority of non-vaxed homeschoolers. She suspects whooping cough because her child was exposed to it, but she's "not that sick", so she brings her daughter. Later, an email goes out about how dd has whooping cough and you've all been exposed. Sorry!

 

I decided to vaccinate my children(they were older) because I realized that if my child got a preventable disease, I would expect the medical community to do all they could to help my child. Once I realized it was more than just my decision and did affect others, I vaccinated. I only gave one shot at a time every two months until they were up to date. No reactions.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crimson Wife]

 

Also, as someone who is pregnant and living right in the middle of two cities having a big measles outbreak that was traced back to unvaxxed populations, I have very little patience for anti-vaxxers at the moment.

 

The MN outbreak was almost certainly brought in from overseas. There would be much less of a concern about whether the % of Americans who vaccinate against measles is 90% or 95% or 99% if the U.S. government required proof of immunization or titers proving immunity against the disease for entry or re-entry into this country.

 

Don't want to vaccinate? Fine, but vacation at home rather than going overseas where the disease is still endemic.

[Mergath]

So you won't be letting your kids play with refugee kids I guess.

 

Many many people who have immigrated to the USA are not vaccinated the way we are, regardless of whoever Andrew Wakefield is.  Also if you travel outside the US, you will encounter thousands of unvaccinated people.

 

I choose not to worry about that small risk, which I can do little about anyway.

 

The vast majority of these kids were born in the US and are US citizens, for the record. I only brought up the parents' refugee status because I think it's unbelievably shitty that Wakefield and others specifically targeted them because, with their history, he thought they'd be easier to sell on his propaganda. Personally, I couldn't care less about their immigration status. What I care about is whether they've been vaccinated or not. My dd has a rare genetic disorder that hasn't been studied too much yet, and we have no idea what medical problems could pop up for her in the future. So we choose to be cautious.

 

[Mergath]

The MN outbreak was almost certainly brought in from overseas. There would be much less of a concern about whether the % of Americans who vaccinate against measles is 90% or 95% or 99% if the U.S. government required proof of immunization or titers proving immunity against the disease for entry or re-entry into this country.

 

Don't want to vaccinate? Fine, but vacation at home rather than going overseas where the disease is still endemic.

 

Brought in from overseas, yes. And is currently spreading very rapidly through a population with an extremely low vaccination rate. We're not talking 90% instead of 99% or something. Thanks to Andrew Wakefield and his cronies, the vax rate in this community, according to the last article I read, is hovering somewhere around 40%. You really don't see any connection? Do you think we'd be seeing dozens of small children with measles if the vaccination rates were above 90%?

Edited May 7, 2017 by Mergath

[goldberry]

Also, I'm not for criminal prosecution but it is totally and completely reasonable that unvaxed kids or adults are occasionally not allowed to be part of a group where parents have vaxed and want that protection.  

 

There have been some good posts already regarding the practical answers so I won't repeat them.  I'm going to give what I consider to be an ethical answer that I'm not afraid to say:

 

The rest of us take the risk of vaccination to protect our kids and because we value the benefit of living in a vaxed society where most people can be protected.  If you or your kids are not vaxed because of valid medical reasons, you are exactly who a vaxed society is designed to protect and I have no problem with that. I have no problem with people who modify the vaccination schedule under a doc's supervision.  If you CHOOSE not to vax because of vague unmedical reasoning, you are taking advantage of the rest of us and putting people at risk beyond your own family.  I have no problem with a school, or a group, or any entity saying that it's your decision if you don't vax but you are not welcome there. It's like joining a group that you haven't paid the fee for.  You are letting others pay the fee (take the risk) and still expect to have the advantages of it.  

 

There are consequences of that choice, and honestly I wish more schools including colleges would enforce it.

 

(This is an unusually harsh position for me, but I have given it a lot of thought and stand by it.)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Ah, I can see I'm going to be spending most of co-op alone in the kitchen this week!

 

There have been some good posts already regarding the practical answers so I won't repeat them.  I'm going to give what I consider to be an ethical answer that I'm not afraid to say:

 

The rest of us take the risk of vaccination to protect our kids and because we value the benefit of living in a vaxed society where most people can be protected.  If you or your kids are not vaxed because of valid medical reasons, you are exactly who a vaxed society is designed to protect and I have no problem with that. I have no problem with people who modify the vaccination schedule under a doc's supervision.  If you CHOOSE not to vax because of vague unmedical reasoning, you are taking advantage of the rest of us and putting people at risk beyond your own family.  I have no problem with a school, or a group, or any entity saying that it's your decision if you don't vax but you are not welcome there. It's like joining a group that you haven't paid the fee for.  You are letting others pay the fee (take the risk) and still expect to have the advantages of it.  

 

There are consequences of that choice, and honestly I wish more schools including colleges would enforce it.

 

(This is an unusually harsh position for me, but I have given it a lot of thought and stand by it.)

 

I completely agree with you, and it makes my head spin when anti-vax advocates cite herd immunity as a reason that they don't need to worry about vaccinating their kids.

 

The last vaccine related discussion I was involved in (before I decided it was a good time to get some coffee) was about how big pharma was using the ebola outbreak as an excuse to make more vaccines. Well, yes, it would be really nice if the thousands of people dying in Africa could have a vaccine that could prevent that. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't actually believe that we should force parents to vaccinate their children if they don't want to (though I don't think they should be allowed to go to school etc. if they're not vaccinated), and we don't vaccinate for everything. But if you're going to claim to use good science and research practices to back your decisions, then you should actually do that. And if you're going to claim the moral high ground to back your decision not to vaccinate, then you should examine the ethical implications of your decisions as well. 

 

Yeah, I'm definitely going to be spending some quiet time with my lesson planning at co-op this week. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Lady Florida.]

I'm curious about one thing.  How often do the unvaxed people go to the doctor?  Among non-vaccinators I know, there is a high percentage who choose to use alternative medicine and only take their kids to the doctor when they are really sick.  This would mean that their 6-12 year olds would have a much lower chance to be diagnosed with anything (like allergies... because you cannot tell me that of 261 unvaxed kids only 18 kids have allergies).  The non-vaccinating population tends to just be different from the vaccinating population (not counting those who don't vax for medical reasons).

 

 

About many of these diagnoses, only parents who are more into tradional medicine may get these diagnoses, especially in homeschool families.  I doubt that families that don't like going to doctors ever get their children diagnosed with ADHD, for example.  Some of these things are certainly just a matter of diagnosis.

 

My reply is similar to Chris' with the added comment that those people will very strongly avoid labels. Rather than get a dx of ADHD for example, they'll just change their "active" child's diet or give him more exercise. Learning disabilities, ASD, and other such conditions will also not be officially diagnosed because "Oh no! A label!" I've seen a few people from my former hs group have a light bulb moment when I tell them about ds' accommodations at college for his ADHD. Some have realized that without the label there are no accommodations (and some disabilities are harder to get a dx for when you're an adult).

 

I wish more anti-vax folks could talk with my grandparent's generation - about how many were lost to polio, measles, etc, back then - more real life stuff instead of hype.

 

Vaccinations aren't perfect and a few are harmed by them.  I don't think anyone disputes that.  But far, far fewer have issues than those who died or had major issues from the diseases they work to prevent.

 

I wonder if the younger generation even knows anyone IRL who had polio and had leftover lifelong issues from it (wheelchair bound or similar).

 

I think this is a big part of it. They don't know what it was like before vaccinations and they have a romanticized view of those "harmless" childhood diseases. I'm in an age group that saw a bit of both. When I was in K and first grade we got the polio vaccine in sugar cubes at school. I saw people half a generation before me live with the results of now-preventable diseases. The childhood vaccines weren't available until I was older. I remember a boy from a friend of our family who was deaf due to complications of measles. For a while they were worried it affected his intellectual abilities, which was also a feared complication. He was fortunate. He only lost his hearing. 

 

I understand not being familiar with now eradicated and/or preventable diseases. What I don't understand is not believing in modern medicine. I didn't live through the years when bleeding was a cure. I didn't live through the years before germs were discovered. And yet, I didn't need to live through them to know how much better off we are now. I don't understand not learning from the past. I don't understand not trusting settled science.

 

 

My brother's ex MIL had childhood polio. She was one of the "lucky" ones who survived. She survived to endure years of braces, and to have a permanent limp and only partial use of her right hand and arm. She was right handed and had to learn to become mostly left handed. I'm pretty sure she would have appreciated a vaccine had it been available to prevent her disease.

 

 

The loud ones do.  The quiet ones ... you will never know.  And it most likely won't matter either way.

 

Not all unvaxed kids are children of "anti-vaxxers."

 

 IME, and my admittedly tiny sample size, the quiet ones are those whose children have legitimate medical reasons for not vaccinating. The loud ones are actual anti-vax types.

 

 

The science is solid. Incontrovertible. Why is their no small pox in this nation? Vaccines. Why do people no longer die of lock jaw? Vaccines. Why do schools no longer have diphtheria sweep through the student body killing children left and right? Vaccines. Why was a vaccine developed for Meningitis A, as well as B? Because those disease are lethal!!

 

Medical technology cannot save every person who gets these diseases. I have heard this argument before, "Well, we have treatments now so my child does not need vaccines." Sorry. This is an invalid argument. The diseases targeted are the ones for whom the treatment success is iffy or non existent.

 

Given that not vaxing when there is no medical contraindication puts the child's life at risk as well as everyone else who does have a contraindication, it is difficult to define a line between personal liberty and community safety.

 

:hurray:

 

 

[LucyStoner]

My grandmother's brother died of tetanus as a child. When my parents believed the bull shit about vaccines being more dangerous than helpful after my brother was born, he didn't get inoculated. He then nearly died of whooping cough before my parents saw the light. Thankfully, my older brother and I were vaccinated and they didn't have 3 very sick kids on their hands.

Edited May 7, 2017 by LucyStoner

[justasque]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at here - why would the number of unvaccinated people compared to the regular population would not need to be proportional for a study like this?  I thought the point was to look at a population of non-vaccinated kids and compare the rate of illness to a control population of non-vaccinated kids?  They would need a significant number of unvaccinated children to do this.  Just like a study of kids with a heart condition would include more than the normal proportion of kids with a heart condition.

 

That's a good question.  Here's my thinking:  

 

It's not so much the number of unvaxed kids in the study being proportional to the number of unvaxed kids in the general population.  Rather, the question is whether the unvaxxed kids in the survey are representative/typical of unvaxxed kids in the general population (or even of unvaxxed kids in the homeschooling population); ditto for the vaxxed kids.

 

The researchers basically contacted 131 homeschooling organizations and asked them to send info about the study, with a link to the study questionnaire, to the groups' members.  They made it clear in the request what the study was about -  long-term effects of vaccines.  Some chose to answer, some didn't.  They got 415 responses (which included 666 children).  They do not report how many mothers were asked, but that's an average of only 3 moms per homeschooling organization, so not a great response.  The main problem with that approach is that you don't get a random sample.

• Some moms might be more motivated to answer the survey because they are very anti-vax and want to share how healthy their children are. Moms who didn't vax and have kids with health issues might be less motivated to answer.  Thus it is unwise to extrapolate the data from these unvaxxing moms to unvaxxing moms in general.
• The unvaxxing moms are also overwhelmingly middle to upper class, married, older, educated, and white.  Their children are more likely to be healthy than the general population of children, whether vaxxed or not, because they are more likely to have access to quality food, adequate housing, and health care.  Thus it is unwise to extrapolate from the experiences of these moms to the general population.
• The fact that the sample included such a large number of unvaxxed or partially vaxxed children seems to me to be out of proportion with even the homeschooling population, though I don't have data to confirm that.  If it is the case, it means that the sample is disproportionately skewed towards low/no vax families, which leads me to question how representative of / typical of the homeschooling population the vaxxing responders are.  That is, the problem is not that there are more no/low vaxxers in the study group, but that the study group is not a random sample of homeschoolers combined with the fact that the responders are self-selecting, which leads to questions about whether the results can be extrapolated to homeschoolers at large, let alone the population at large.

Other things I noticed:

• Vaxxed kids were more likely to have been diagnosed with ear infections and pneumonia.  However, I wonder if the non/low vaxxers were less likely to take a child to the doctor to get this kind of diagnosis rather than treating it at home.  The same goes for allergies and eczema.  Again, the assumption seems to be that the two groups of families (vaxxing vs. low/no vaxxing) are similar in all other ways, but I don't think that's likely to be the case given the selection methods. 

• In fact, those with at least some vaccinations "were significantly more likely than the unvaccinated to use medication for allergies (20.0% vs. 1.2%...), to have used antibiotics in the past 12 months (30.8% vs. 15.4%...), and to have used fever medications at least once (90.7% vs. 67.8%...). The vaccinated were also more likely to have seen a doctor for a routine checkup in the past 12 months (57.6% vs. 37.2%...), visited a dentist during the past year (89.4% vs. 80.5%...), [and] visited a doctor or clinic due to illness in the past year (36.0% vs. 16.0%...)".  This can be seen as an indication of more sickness, or of a different reaction to sickness.  In other words, did the vaxxed kids see the doctor etc. more because they were sicker, or because their parents were more likely to take them to the doctor when they were sick?

• It also seems likely that families who don't vax are also less likely to spend the time and money to get formal diagnoses from health care professionals for things like ADHD, autism, and learning disabilities.  If you don't trust the medical community when it comes to their vax recommendations, why would you want their label for your child's behavioral or learning issues?  (Especially if you are homeschooling and can make the needed accommodations yourself without need for a label.)
• Obviously, some people don't vax for medical reasons, but given the sample population and the large number of non-vaxers as opposed to partial vaxxers, I am assuming that the preponderance of non-vaxxers in the survey do so out of concerns about vaccine side-effects outweighing benefits.  Interestingly, the researchers do not report asking the respondents about the reasons for their vax choices, although they do ask about their reasons for choosing homeschooling.  

As the researchers themselves stated, "additional research is needed" to see if the findings are replicated "in studies with larger samples and stronger research designs."  

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by justasque

[nixpix5]

Out of 5 kids I have one with ADHD and one with ASD. My ASD kiddo was diagnosed before vaccines. We delayed him because after having so many kids and both myself and my husband being neurobiologist we saw he was different as early as 3 months. I started taking video documentation with my thoughts as he grew. My pediatrician thought I was crazy but sure enough he received his preliminary diagnosis at 15 months and full at 2 years. The diagnosis is correct and has maintained. His was not at all due to vaccines and all of my kids are indeed vaccinated. I have no worries about that. Here is what I have observed though...after he gets his vaccines he has effects. His language abilities nose dive, his behaviors become a bit wonky and we see noticeable differences for about 2 to 3 weeks post vaccines and then he is fine again. We have always documented this. My husband works as a research scientist and looks at various brain insults (TBI, dementia, etc). We have had a theory ever since grad school that our immune response plays a part in this. When your immune system activates it creates inflammation to battle the insult. Some are more susceptible to this than others. It also activities various proteins that act on other pathways. These cascades are meant to protect us but they do damage as well. On a small scale this damage is negligible. However, with increases in pollution, plastics, processed foods and so forth (sugar is the biggest culprit), our bodies exist under more inflammation states than those in the past. This, I believe, has led to higher rates of diagnosis to some extent. Also, women are born with their eggs and these eggs are assaulted for years before use. This does effect the genetic viability. Literally what our grandmother's do to their body effected us inadvertently as we will effect all those in our lineage. So again, nature/nurture is at play. My husband and I are now seeing journal article after journal article now in preliminary studies starting to look at inflammation and the immune system as a viable reason for many of these brain disorders that we are seeing more of. I think it is an exciting time in research.

 

So with all of this to say, I too wish people would stop causing hysteria around vaccines. If immuno inflammation does promote some disorders then not vaccinating is worse because those serious illnesses will lead to way more inflammation over time.

[SKL]

The vast majority of these kids were born in the US and are US citizens, for the record. I only brought up the parents' refugee status because I think it's unbelievably shitty that Wakefield and others specifically targeted them because, with their history, he thought they'd be easier to sell on his propaganda. Personally, I couldn't care less about their immigration status. What I care about is whether they've been vaccinated or not. My dd has a rare genetic disorder that hasn't been studied too much yet, and we have no idea what medical problems could pop up for her in the future. So we choose to be cautious.

 

 

So are you saying you do ask parents if their kids are vaxed before letting your kid play with them?

 

[Crimson Wife]

Brought in from overseas, yes. And is currently spreading very rapidly through a population with an extremely low vaccination rate. We're not talking 90% instead of 99% or something. Thanks to Andrew Wakefield and his cronies, the vax rate in this community, according to the last article I read, is hovering somewhere around 40%. You really don't see any connection? Do you think we'd be seeing dozens of small children with measles if the vaccination rates were above 90%?

 

If we required proof of immunization or titers for entry or re-entry to the U.S., it wouldn't matter if the vaccination rate was 40% or 90% because the disease would not have been brought to the U.S. but rather would have remained overseas.

 

We could cut down on measles cases in the U.S. by a huge percentage simply by strengthening our entry policies.

[justasque]

If we required proof of immunization or titers for entry or re-entry to the U.S., it wouldn't matter if the vaccination rate was 40% or 90% because the disease would not have been brought to the U.S. but rather would have remained overseas.

 

We could cut down on measles cases in the U.S. by a huge percentage simply by strengthening our entry policies.

 

This would require a *massive* increase in infrastructure.  Customs officers would have to see papers from every single person entering the US - even US residents returning from a vacation - for this to be effective.  We would need more customs officers, more people to create the paperwork for Americans going overseas, and more space in airports to process the passengers upon entry.  Other countries would need more people to document the vaccines given and do titers, and in some cases more access to vaccines in general.  And of course there would be a problem with forged documents, etc., so the process of documentation would get tougher (and more expensive) over time.  I think this is an idea that sounds good in theory, but isn't very practical in practice.

[Caroline]

If we required proof of immunization or titers for entry or re-entry to the U.S., it wouldn't matter if the vaccination rate was 40% or 90% because the disease would not have been brought to the U.S. but rather would have remained overseas.

 

We could cut down on measles cases in the U.S. by a huge percentage simply by strengthening our entry policies.

So people who don't vaccinate for any reason should never be allowed to re-enter the country? "Sorry, your kid who cannot get vaccinated for a legitimate medical reason can go with you on vacation to France, but you can't bring him back home."

[Butter]

I do not understand what the parents of vaxed kids should need protection from as far as unvaxed kids.  I thought the whole point of vaxing my kids is that they can be exposed to measles and not catch it.

 

In addition to those not old enough for vaccine series and those who can't get immunized, in the general vaccinated public there are those who do not get immune from vaccines.  We know there is a "failure" rate for every one of them.  We also know sometimes they wear off earlier than expected.  For those people, who are fully vaxed, herd immunity comes into play.  If there are 100 kids and all are vaxed, but 1 isn't immune for whatever reason, the other 99 are going to keep that one from getting sick.  The problem is If you have 100 kids and 75 are vaxed and 1 of them isn't immune for whatever reason, there are 25 unvaxed kids who could spread a vaccine preventable disease to the one vaxed, but not immune, kid.  The only way to know which vaccinated kids are not immune is through titers, but that is unreasonable and costly so instead we rely on herd immunity.

 

  IME, and my admittedly tiny sample size, the quiet ones are those whose children have legitimate medical reasons for not vaccinating. The loud ones are actual anti-vax types.

 

My daughter is mostly vaxed and I guess technically my youngest is not fully vaxed (just missing chicken pox), but for the most part I don't talk about it because it's for medical reasons.  I do, however, like to talk about the reason why Adrian didn't have the chicken pox shot because it's so bizarre.  I've had chicken pox three times and my husband has had it twice and our titers *still* show non-immunity (have antibodies, but not enough).  What are the odds two non-immune people would marry?  The 5 of us got chicken pox in early 2008 (so the older three don't need the vaccine) most likely from close contact with a recently vaccinated child.  I was pregnant with the youngest which is why he didn't get the disease and so is technically not fully vaxed, but him having that vaccine would likely just cause us all to get chicken pox again and isn't likely to give him immunity.

 

Those I know who don't vax for philosophical reasons like to tell people why vaccines are bad.  A lot.  There's a joke I heard about a non-vaxer, a crossfitter, and a vegan walk into a bar and everyone knows these things about them because they tell everyone right away.

 

If we required proof of immunization or titers for entry or re-entry to the U.S., it wouldn't matter if the vaccination rate was 40% or 90% because the disease would not have been brought to the U.S. but rather would have remained overseas.

 

We could cut down on measles cases in the U.S. by a huge percentage simply by strengthening our entry policies.

 

Everyone just coming in, that would be a logistical nightmare.  For people who apply for an immigrant visa abroad or an adjustment in status to permanent resident after entry (this is, for example, refugees), we have vaccine requirements according the DHS/UCIS https://www.uscis.gov/news/questions-and-answers/vaccination-requirements

[SKL]

If we required proof of immunization or titers for entry or re-entry to the U.S., it wouldn't matter if the vaccination rate was 40% or 90% because the disease would not have been brought to the U.S. but rather would have remained overseas.

 

We could cut down on measles cases in the U.S. by a huge percentage simply by strengthening our entry policies.

 

Not sure it's such a good idea to kill the US tourism industry.

 

True, we have had outbreaks, but there has only been 1 death from measles in recent US history.  Measles is not fun, but it is rarely life-threatening.

 

Last I heard, even UK and Japan do not require measles vax.

[SKL]

And I think it's funny that people think most philosophical non-vaxers must be loud about it.  Are you loud about everything you don't choose for yourself or your child?  Do Atheists usually go around telling Christians they are stupid?  Do homeschoolers usually get out the foghorn around b&m school parents?  Maybe it's just me, but I make my own decisions (philosophical and otherwise) for my own family and don't assume anyone else needs or wants to know.  Unless they ask, in which case I would be thinking, "OK this person is ... different."

 

It's quite possible you know several philosophical non-vaxers but they just never told you that.  Unless you have asked about it.

 

In my world, people who have immune compromised kids protect them by keeping them away from many situations, because we all know that any kid, vaxed or unvaxed, could be exposed and could spread bad stuff to vulnerable kids.  As noted above, even a fresh vax can shed and infect people.  My [vaxed] kids were not allowed to play with their cousins for years, because they attended school and their youngest cousin was a vulnerable micro-preemie.  Little cousin's (healthy) sister was taken out of daycare for the same reason.  The kid down the street has immune issues, and her grandma told me so I could keep my kids away when they were showing symptoms of illness.  She didn't ask if my kids were fully vaxed (they weren't at age 2 when the playdates started).

 

I don't know of anyone at my kids' school who isn't vaxed, yet the chickenpox were going around a couple years ago.  We can have all the rules we want, but we can't really control our environment to the point some people seem to expect.

[justasque]

Not sure it's such a good idea to kill the US tourism industry.

 

True, we have had outbreaks, but there has only been 1 death from measles in recent US history.  Measles is not fun, but it is rarely life-threatening.

 

Last I heard, even UK and Japan do not require measles vax.

 

From the CDC:

 

Some people may suffer from severe complications, such as pneumonia (infection of the lungs) and encephalitis (swelling of the brain). They may need to be hospitalized and could die.

• As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.

• About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability.

• For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.

Measles may cause pregnant woman to give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

...

Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a very rare, but fatal disease of the central nervous system that results from a measles virus infection acquired earlier in life. SSPE generally develops 7 to 10 years after a person has measles, even though the person seems to have fully recovered from the illness. Since measles was eliminated in 2000, SSPE is rarely reported in the United States.  Among people who contracted measles during the resurgence in the United States in 1989 to 1991, 4 to 11 out of every 100,000 were estimated to be at risk for developing SSPE. The risk of developing SSPE may be higher for a person who gets measles before they are two years of age.

[TechWife]

 

True, we have had outbreaks, but there has only been 1 death from measles in recent US history.  Measles is not fun, but it is rarely life-threatening.

 

 

 

Death isn't the only complication. A disease, illness or injury  doesn't have to be life threatening to be devastating. 

 

"Complications and death from measles are more common in infants, young children, and adults compared with older children and adolescents.3 Measles complications include pneumonia and encephalitis. In addition, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, a degenerative disease of the central nervous system characterized by intellectual decline and behavior changes, followed by seizures, dementia, and death, can occur on average 4–10 years after acute measles illness, although latency periods have ranged from less than a year to several decades.7 Incidence has been estimated to be 4–11 cases per 100,000 cases of measles.7"

 

Pregnant women are at increased risk of morbidity and mortality associated with measles based on many studies (Table 1).

 

In a cohort study from New York City during the period from 1957–1964,8 measles was associated with an increased frequency of low birth weight (less than 2,500 g), which appeared to be due to preterm labor.

Edited May 7, 2017 by TechWife

[SKL]

One thing about measles stats - these are mostly from decades ago because we went a long time with few or no measles outbreaks in the USA.  Medicine has improved, so we really should be looking at current results in developed countries.

 

I'm not anti-vax, I'm saying it would do more harm than good to ban the entry of any person who doesn't have proof of immunity.  That is just as extreme as trying to scare people out of vaxing.

 

How many of you have proof of immunity from measles?

[lovinmyboys]

I would be shocked if I know someone who doesn't vaccinate for philosophical reasons and I don't already know it. Non vaxxers are still pretty uncommon and I know tons of them. I never ask them-they are happy to share. It is really weird to me. If I didn't vaccinate I wouldn't tell unless asked.

 

One of my children did get whooping cough as a baby from an unvaxxed child. He is fine, but it was really scary. After that I did not let unvaxxed people near my kids younger than 3 (to the best of my ability). We are out of that stage now so I don't mind if my kids play with kids who are not vaccinated.

[Butter]

Last I heard, even UK and Japan do not require measles vax.

 

No...

 

UK: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/vaccination-schedule-age-checklist.aspx

 

Japan: http://japanhealthinfo.com/child-health-and-childcare/vaccination/ (note that MUMPS is optional)

[SKL]

No...

 

UK: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/vaccination-schedule-age-checklist.aspx

 

Japan: http://japanhealthinfo.com/child-health-and-childcare/vaccination/ (note that MUMPS is optional)

 

Rountine / routinely offered does not equal required.

 

ETA:  I have traveled to dozens of countries and have never once been asked about my vax / immunity status.  It's a good thing, too, because I would not have been able to prove any of it.

Edited May 7, 2017 by SKL

[TechWife]

One thing about measles stats - these are mostly from decades ago because we went a long time with few or no measles outbreaks in the USA.  Medicine has improved, so we really should be looking at current results in developed countries.

 

I'm not anti-vax, I'm saying it would do more harm than good to ban the entry of any person who doesn't have proof of immunity.  That is just as extreme as trying to scare people out of vaxing.

 

How many of you have proof of immunity from measles?

 

Exactly. The US stats are old because people in the US get vaccinated. 

 

If you read the report I linked, you will see that it includes quite a few stats from other nations. 

 

Yes, I have proof of immunity from measles. I volunteer in healthcare and have had my titers done in order to prove immunity. I am in possession of the results and they have also been entered into my medical record at my primary care physicians' office. 

 

ETA: To clarify, i originally had my titers drawn when my husband was exposed to the measles while on a business trip.  I used them about six months later to prove immunity when I began working at the hospital. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by TechWife

[TechWife]

 

ETA:  I have traveled to dozens of countries and have never once been asked about my vax / immunity status.  It's a good thing, too, because I would not have been able to prove any of it.

 

My husband has had to prove his immunity status to get visas to travel to and work in various countries. Titers are a wonderful thing! 

[SKL]

 

Yes, I have proof of immunity from measles. I volunteer in healthcare and have had my titers done in order to prove immunity. I am in possession of the results and they have also been entered into my medical record at my primary care physicians' office. 

 

That's great, so you get to travel.  Most of us would be unable to under the suggested law.

 

[SKL]

My husband has had to prove his immunity status to get visas to travel to and work in various countries. Titers are a wonderful thing! 

 

Working there is a kind of immigration, so I would expect additional requirements to apply.  One would also have time to prepare for this, and likely the employer would cover the cost of the titers.

 

[TechWife]

That's great, so you get to travel.  Most of us would be unable to under the suggested law.

 

 

Anyone can get their titers drawn and have proof of their status. 

[SKL]

Anyone can get their titers drawn and have proof of their status. 

 

So are you in favor of requiring everyone landing in the US to have proof of their immunity status?

 

Again, that would be quite extreme.  And I'm not sure it's so easy for every traveler in the world to do that.  But if you think there should be a lobby for that, go for it.  There wouldn't be much need for a "temporary travel ban" once that was in place.  :/

 

[Janeway]

What are you talking about? No one said that.

I see it a lot on boards, but not this one. And in the news. Like when someone went to Disneyland and then later found out they had the measles, so many people flipped out and called for extreme measures.

[Janeway]

I would be shocked if I know someone who doesn't vaccinate for philosophical reasons and I don't already know it. Non vaxxers are still pretty uncommon and I know tons of them. I never ask them-they are happy to share. It is really weird to me. If I didn't vaccinate I wouldn't tell unless asked.

 

One of my children did get whooping cough as a baby from an unvaxxed child. He is fine, but it was really scary. After that I did not let unvaxxed people near my kids younger than 3 (to the best of my ability). We are out of that stage now so I don't mind if my kids play with kids who are not vaccinated.

No one I know in person knows that I no longer vax.

[Janeway]

Vaccines greatly reduce the risk of a child catching an illness, but they don't eliminate it completely. For example, the MMR vaccine is 93% effective at preventing measles. It's not 100%, but I'll gratefully get my kids vaxxed and live with the 7% chance.

 

For the most part, you don't even need to ask people if their kids are vaxxed. In my experience, the anti-vaxxers will start ranting at anyone and everyone about the evils of Big Pharma and vaccines causing autism and aluminum adjuvants and on and on and on. They typically out themselves if you spend more than a few minutes with them.

 

I am an anti-vaxxer. I never ever tell anyone that I know in person, ever.