Vax'ed v. non-vax'ed homeschoolers "study" shared in my local hs group

[flyingiguana]

I have asked if kids are vaccinated.  It can be done.  You just have to not be judgmental about it.  Least, not that anyone can tell.

 

Around us, at the time my kids were little, it seemed the vaccine that everyone was avoiding was tetanus.  Some people had been told by various drs that that was ok because "no one gets tetanus anymore".  I would doubt that dr's competence if that's the story they were giving people.

 

But then, I'm constantly surprised by the lack of scientific understanding in many people I know.  It just added an extra layer of surprise that someone who had been through a medical/science degree could come out with that statement.

[flyingiguana]

And while I'm chiming in here -- the reason it's not believed vaccines cause autism is because of statistical studies.

 

Bringing up the "well, how do we know that ONE kid's autism wasn't caused by a vaccine" is not a valid argument against a population survey.  If you want to argue against the statistical studies, you need to bring up the power of the statistical tests and whether a valid control group was used.  Which would involve delving more deeply into the data than just pointing to one kid who happened to develop autism at the time of a vaccine.

 

A sample of one doesn't tell us anything.  Nor does a sample that was chosen precisely because it gave the answer one was looking for (while discarding all other data points that argued against it).  

[creekland]

But then, I'm constantly surprised by the lack of scientific understanding in many people I know.  

 

Ditto - and not just with vaccines.  Considering we all are supposed to have K-12 education behind us, it boggles my mind just how much folks don't know.  However, I remind myself that science/math is my life, so I'm probably a wee bit biased.   :lol:   In (elementary) school my kids were considered science geniuses too.  That happened when my youngest was in high school too.  I guess it's a natural consequence to being raised with parents who accurately answer the "Mommy, why is the sky blue?" question even if the youngun is 4. ;)

 

Just don't ask any of them to name professional ball teams of any particular sport - or top Hollywood stars, etc.  If they know any of that, it didn't come from home. 

[StaceyinLA]

I have an international shot booklet. http://apps.who.int/bookorders/anglais/detart1.jsp?sesslan=1&codlan=0&codcol=68&codcch=1000 It's not that hard to ask a doctor to add to it when shots are given.

What people should be given is the vaccine insert. I realize most people wouldn't read it, but it isn't usually offered. What they give you is a little "fact sheet." This is far different from the vaccine insert that goes into great detail, so much in fact that on of the flu vaccine inserts actually says there is no evidence that giving the vaccine will reduce the incidence of the flu, and that there have been no studies of the flu vaccine in pregnant women. This is the sort of thing that makes me wary. How can we do something like this and risk unborn babies when absolutely ZERO studies have been done? And they haven't been done with pertussis either; well I guess they are now - plenty of women (and their unborn babies) are being government guinea pigs.

Edited May 11, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[StaceyinLA]

Ditto - and not just with vaccines. Considering we all are supposed to have K-12 education behind us, it boggles my mind just how much folks don't know. However, I remind myself that science/math is my life, so I'm probably a wee bit biased. :lol: In (elementary) school my kids were considered science geniuses too. That happened when my youngest was in high school too. I guess it's a natural consequence to being raised with parents who accurately answer the "Mommy, why is the sky blue?" question even if the youngun is 4. ;)

 

Just don't ask any of them to name professional ball teams of any particular sport - or top Hollywood stars, etc. If they know any of that, it didn't come from home.

For those who say the average person doesn't know much about science, how would you explain the actual scientists who DO have a problem with our vaccine program in this country? Are they all just improperly educated because they don't come to the same conclusion?

 

This is the reason I have a problem with the whole system. Any doctor who questions it is a quack, any scientist who doesn't agree must not be properly educated, and any parent who wants to make an educated decision for their own children must have gotten all their information from google or Jenny McCarthy.

[maize]

What people should be given is the vaccine insert. I realize most people wouldn't read it, but it isn't usually offered. What they give you is a little "fact sheet." This is far different from the vaccine insert that goes into great detail, so much in fact that on of the flu vaccine inserts actually says there is no evidence that giving the vaccine will reduce the incidence of the flu, and that there have been no studies of the flu vaccine in pregnant women. This is the sort of thing that makes me wary. How can we do something like this and risk unborn babies when absolutely ZERO studies have been done? And they haven't been done with pertussis either; well I guess they are now - plenty of women (and their unborn babies) are being government guinea pigs.

With regards to flu vaccine and pregnant women, we KNOW that influenza infection in the mother is a significant risk to unborn babies. We have good evidence that flu vaccine reduces the incidence of flu in the general population. We can reasonably extrapolate that the risks of vaccination are outweighed by the risks of infection.

 

We badly need more studies of all kinds of medical interventions with regards to pregnancy, it's a situation where I think some major past mistakes (i.e. the thalidomide fiasco) have made us run too far in the opposite direction to the point where collectively we think it is safer to just put warning labels on everything saying they have not been proven safe in pregnancy. Personally I would rather see a lot more resources dedicated to scientific research on how things do impact pregnancy (since these interventions are being used anyway).

Edited May 11, 2017 by maize

[ChocolateReignRemix]

With regards to flu vaccine and pregnant women, we KNOW that influenza infection in the mother is a significant risk to unborn babies. We have good evidence that flu vaccine reduces the incidence of flu in the general population. We can reasonably extrapolate that the risks of vaccination are outweighed by the risks of infection.

 

We badly need more studies of all kinds of medical interventions with regards to pregnancy, it's a situation where I think some major past mistakes (i.e. the thalidomide fiasco) have made us run too far in the opposite direction to the point where collectively we think it is safer to just put warning labels on everything saying they have not been proven safe in pregnancy. Personally I would rather see a lot more resources dedicated to scientific research on how things do impact pregnancy (since these interventions are being used anyway).

They actually have done studies looking at the flu vaccine and pregnancy. I have no idea where Stacey gets the idea they have not.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

For those who say the average person doesn't know much about science, how would you explain the actual scientists who DO have a problem with our vaccine program in this country? Are they all just improperly educated because they don't come to the same conclusion?

 

This is the reason I have a problem with the whole system. Any doctor who questions it is a quack, any scientist who doesn't agree must not be properly educated, and any parent who wants to make an educated decision for their own children must have gotten all their information from google or Jenny McCarthy.

But some doctors are quacks (Mercola, Wakefield, etc).

[StaceyinLA]

They actually have done studies looking at the flu vaccine and pregnancy. I have no idea where Stacey gets the idea they have not.

It is actually on one of the flu inserts. I have a friend who is very involved with research and vaccines in her state, and she shared it with some of us. I'll see about getting an image, although I don't know if I can get the darn thing to post here.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It is actually on one of the flu inserts. I have a friend who is very involved with research and vaccines in her state, and she shared it with some of us. I'll see about getting an image, although I don't know if I can get the darn thing to post here.

The CDC states on their website their have been numerous studies on pregnant women and the flu vaccine. Dr. Google mentions a recent one looking to see if there is a connection to autism (answer: no).

[StaceyinLA]

But some doctors are quacks (Mercola, Wakefield, etc).

Some may be "quacks," but there are mainstream doctors who don't agree with our vaccination program.

 

My nephew is an anesthesiologist, and has many friends that are doctors. There are quite a few in his group of friends (and this is not in some radical part of the country; this is in a small town in Louisiana), who don't support the vaccine schedule the way it is, and don't follow it with their own children/families.

Edited May 11, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[StaceyinLA]

The CDC states on their website their have been numerous studies on pregnant women and the flu vaccine. Dr. Google mentions a recent one looking to see if there is a connection to autism (answer: no).

Well perhaps this was only for the particular flu vaccine whose insert she shared. Maybe that particular one isn't used in pregnant women.

Edited May 11, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[maize]

Some may be "quacks," but there are mainstream doctors who don't agree with our vaccination program.

 

My nephew is an anesthesiologist, and has many friends that are doctors. There are quite a few in his group of friends (and this is not in some radical part of the country; this is in a small town in Louisiana), who don't support the vaccine schedule the way it is, and don't follow it with their own children/families.

Oh, I know doctors who modify the schedule for there own kids. There is nothing about the specific schedule that makes it a gold standard scientifically--it is a practical schedule for getting widespread population coverage.

 

What I don't know of is significant numbers of trained medical doctors who believe that vaccines in general are bunk or are causing more problems than they prevent. I don't personally know any doctors who choose not to vaccinate their own children at all without medical contraindication. I don't know any doctors (though I am sure there are occasional ones out there) who buy into the conspiracy theory type stuff that goes around the anti-vax community. I don't know any doctors who think their child would be better off catching the measles than getting the measles vaccine.

Edited May 11, 2017 by maize

[StaceyinLA]

The CDC states on their website their have been numerous studies on pregnant women and the flu vaccine. Dr. Google mentions a recent one looking to see if there is a connection to autism (answer: no).

I'm not going to begin to get into a discussion about the autism link. I think there is likely way more to it than has been studied. Bottom line is I'm not going to be so brazen as to tell a parent who watched their child change within days or weeks after vaccinations that there is zero connection and they are full of crap.

 

There are plenty of documented vaccine injuries out there. We know they aren't 100% safe and effective.

[maize]

I've taken my kids to many different doctors and have never had trouble getting a modified vaccine schedule. I ask the doctor which vaccines they recommend at a given visit as most likely to prevent currently circulating diseases, and explain that I prefer to spread the total number of vaccines out and not get so many at once. Every single doctor--at least a dozen over the course of well child visits for many different children in several different locations--has been perfectly fine with putting together a modified schedule for me.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm not going to begin to get into a discussion about the autism link. I think there is likely way more to it than has been studied. Bottom line is I'm not going to be so brazen as to tell a parent who watched their child change within days or weeks after vaccinations that there is zero connection and they are full of crap.

 

There are plenty of documented vaccine injuries out there. We know they aren't 100% safe and effective.

I am not going to argue with a parent like that but I do keep in mind that parents are often unreliable narrators. I am also pretty certain there is no amount of research that will convince you that there is no link.

 

No one in tre medical community disputes that vaccine injuries can occur. I am noit sure why you keep acting as if that is new information.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Oh, I know doctors who modify the schedule for there own kids. There is nothing about the specific schedule that makes it a gold standard scientifically--it is a practical schedule for getting widespread population coverage.

 

What I don't know of is significant numbers of trained medical doctors who believe that vaccines in general are bunk or are causing more problems than they prevent. I don't personally know any doctors who choose not to vaccinate their own children at all without medical contraindication. I don't know any doctors (though I am sure there are occasional ones out there) who buy into the conspiracy theory type stuff that goes around the anti-vax community. I don't know any doctors who think their child would be better off catching the measles than getting the measles vaccine.

+1

[StaceyinLA]

Oh, I know doctors who modify the schedule for there own kids. There is nothing about the specific schedule that makes it a gold standard scientifically--it is a practical schedule for getting widespread population coverage.

 

What I don't know if is significant numbers of trained medical doctors who believe that vaccines in general are bunk or are causing more problems than they prevent. I don't personally know any doctors who choose not to vaccinate their own children at all without medical contraindication. I don't know any doctors (though I am sure there are occasional ones out there) who buy into the conspiracy theory type stuff that goes around the anti-vax community. I don't know any doctors who think their child would be better off catching the measles than getting the measles vaccine.

Well I know several who have chosen to forego some vaccines for their children (and quite a few nurses who have as well). My niece and nephew have a vaccinated autistic son, and have not vaccinated other children.

 

I can't answer whether other people would choose the measles over the vaccine, but with the side effects of the MMR being as prevalent as they are, I'd take my chances, especially for lifelong immunity. Every single one of my siblings and I had measles when we were young, and mumps and chicken pox.

 

I had an MMR shot going into college because of Rubella, and when I got pregnant less than 3 years later, I had NO immunities to rubella. I'm sorry but I don't want to be vaccinated every other year.

[StaceyinLA]

I am not going to argue with a parent like that but I do keep in mind that parents are often unreliable narrators. I am also pretty certain there is no amount of research that will convince you that there is no link.

 

No one in tre medical community disputes that vaccine injuries can occur. I am noit sure why you keep acting as if that is new information.

Well I do think there is likely research that shows a link, but no one will share it. Maybe it's a conspiracy theory and maybe not, but I just don't believe we are getting the whole story. Honestly, it may not be a direct link, but if there is an indirect link (maybe children with a predisposition that are triggered by vaccines, or some sort of combination that affects certain children), we need to be willing to have an open discussion and more studies that aren't funded by pharmaceutical companies. I just don't understand all the fear associated with finding out the truth. Frankly, to me, if ONE CHILD is damaged by a vaccine, that is one too many.

 

There is no other area in our lives where we are willing to sacrifice children's health and/or lives to save others. I mean hell, everyone get vaccinated and risk injury so 1 out of 10,000 (maybe) doesn't die of measles? How is THAT more logical than just fighting the measles? Why are we so afraid of this? How many injured children ARE acceptable to make sure we keep our vaccine program going strong?

 

ETA that I have to take my dgs to speech, so if I don't respond that's why.

Edited May 11, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I can't answer whether other people would choose the measles over the vaccine, but with the side effects of the MMR being as prevalent as they are, I'd take my chances, especially for lifelong immunity. Every single one of my siblings and I had measles when we were young, and mumps and chicken pox.

 

I had an MMR shot going into college because of Rubella, and when I got pregnant less than 3 years later, I had NO immunities to rubella. I'm sorry but I don't want to be vaccinated every other year.

 

Except...they aren't.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well I do think there is likely research that shows a link, but no one will share it. Maybe it's a conspiracy theory and maybe not, but I just don't believe we are getting the whole story. Honestly, it may not be a direct link, but if there is an indirect link (maybe children with a predisposition that are triggered by vaccines, or some sort of combination that affects certain children), we need to be willing to have an open discussion and more studies that aren't funded by pharmaceutical companies. I just don't understand all the fear associated with finding out the truth. Frankly, to me, if ONE CHILD is damaged by a vaccine, that is one too many.

 

There is no other area in our lives where we are willing to sacrifice children's health and/or lives to save others. I mean hell, everyone get vaccinated and risk injury so 1 out of 10,000 (maybe) doesn't die of measles? How is THAT more logical than just fighting the measles? Why are we so afraid of this? How many injured children ARE acceptable to make sure we keep our vaccine program going strong?

 

ETA that I have to take my dgs to speech, so if I don't respond that's why.

 

When your fallback position is simply "I know the truth and everyone else is hiding it!" then there really is no need for further discussion.  It probably doesn't help that you have seriously overstated the risk of vaccine injury in your own mind.

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by ChocolateReignRemix

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well I do think there is likely research that shows a link, but no one will share it. Maybe it's a conspiracy theory and maybe not, but I just don't believe we are getting the whole story. Honestly, it may not be a direct link, but if there is an indirect link (maybe children with a predisposition that are triggered by vaccines, or some sort of combination that affects certain children), we need to be willing to have an open discussion and more studies that aren't funded by pharmaceutical companies. I just don't understand all the fear associated with finding out the truth. Frankly, to me, if ONE CHILD is damaged by a vaccine, that is one too many.

 

There is no other area in our lives where we are willing to sacrifice children's health and/or lives to save others. I mean hell, everyone get vaccinated and risk injury so 1 out of 10,000 (maybe) doesn't die of measles? How is THAT more logical than just fighting the measles? Why are we so afraid of this? How many injured children ARE acceptable to make sure we keep our vaccine program going strong?

 

ETA that I have to take my dgs to speech, so if I don't respond that's why.

 

I just wanted to address this directly.  *IF* there was even an indirect link, we would expect to see a a difference in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.  Contrary to claims that circulate among the anti-vax crowd, there is no difference.

 

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/no-mmr-autism-link-large-study-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-kids

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2275426

[SKL]

What I don't know of is significant numbers of trained medical doctors who believe that vaccines in general are bunk or are causing more problems than they prevent. I don't personally know any doctors who choose not to vaccinate their own children at all without medical contraindication. I don't know any doctors (though I am sure there are occasional ones out there) who buy into the conspiracy theory type stuff that goes around the anti-vax community. I don't know any doctors who think their child would be better off catching the measles than getting the measles vaccine.

 

Well that's like saying I don't know too many pastors/priests who don't profess to believe in Christianity.

 

The person we see for wellness doesn't encourage vaxes.  She is a trained and licensed chiropractor, covered by my health insurance.

[SKL]

I would also add that my brother is a nurse practitioner who does not agree with some vaxes.  He is adamantly against my girls getting the HPV vaccine.

[maize]

Re: autism--there are lots and lots of studies showing correlations between all kinds of factors and higher rates and/or severity of autism symptoms. The etiology of the disorder seems to be quite complex, and probably does involve both genetic and environmental factors. I have read studies showing correlations between factors as diverse as children spaced close together, exposure to first trimester ultrasound, and both low and high levels of folic acid/folate.

 

There have likely been more studies done looking for a link between vaccination status and autism than any other single factor, and yet such studies have not found any correlation. The correlations that have been found between various factors and autism rates mostly point towards prenatal factors.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well that's like saying I don't know too many pastors/priests who don't profess to believe in Christianity.

 

The person we see for wellness doesn't encourage vaxes. She is a trained and licensed chiropractor, covered by my health insurance.

Do chiropractors have medical degrees?

[Bluegoat]

I have asked if kids are vaccinated.  It can be done.  You just have to not be judgmental about it.  Least, not that anyone can tell.

 

Around us, at the time my kids were little, it seemed the vaccine that everyone was avoiding was tetanus.  Some people had been told by various drs that that was ok because "no one gets tetanus anymore".  I would doubt that dr's competence if that's the story they were giving people.

 

But then, I'm constantly surprised by the lack of scientific understanding in many people I know.  It just added an extra layer of surprise that someone who had been through a medical/science degree could come out with that statement.

 

I think that might have been the younger Dr Sears - he said that kids didn't die of tetanus. :confused1: 

[Butter]

Well perhaps this was only for the particular flu vaccine whose insert she shared. Maybe that particular one isn't used in pregnant women.

 

I vaguely remember a flu vaccine insert that was going around a few years ago that said the flu vax had not been studied in pregnant women.  Turned out it was photoshopped.

 

ETA: I wonder if the one your friend shared was this: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/flu-vaccine-and-pregnancy-a-dangerous-practice/  That is out of date, however.  The current insert can be found here:  https://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM404086.pdf and tells how that particular vax has been studied in pregnancy.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Butter

[Jean in Newcastle]

Do chiropractors have medical degrees?

 

No.  They have a doctorate of chiropractic degree where they are trained to adjust the spine.  That is the scope of their training and their expertise.  I love my chiropractor and he keeps me functional in my chronic illness that has significant skeletal and muscular issues (since the muscles are attached to the skeleton and there is some degree to which the health of one impacts the other) but he absolutely is not qualified to treat childhood diseases whether viral or antibacterial. 

 

[Bluegoat]

I would also add that my brother is a nurse practitioner who does not agree with some vaxes.  He is adamantly against my girls getting the HPV vaccine.

 

Chiropractors aren't qualified to say anything about vaccinations.  The reason they oppose vaccination goes back to the origins and philosophy of chiropractic care, which has a view of disease that is based on an improper flow of energy in the body, rather than on infection from disease organisms.  Something that vaccinations would not help.

[creekland]

For those who say the average person doesn't know much about science, how would you explain the actual scientists who DO have a problem with our vaccine program in this country? Are they all just improperly educated because they don't come to the same conclusion?

 

This is the reason I have a problem with the whole system. Any doctor who questions it is a quack, any scientist who doesn't agree must not be properly educated, and any parent who wants to make an educated decision for their own children must have gotten all their information from google or Jenny McCarthy.

 

Most of those I've heard of who have problems with vaccines (totally anti-vax) are also against pretty much all of modern medicine.  It's a mindset - almost like the prosperity gospel mindset TBH.  I've no doubt they believe what they say.  I've no doubt they also are guessing at a good bit of what they say.  They have theories, but until those theories are proven, well... and like the prosperity gospel, even when the theories are proven wrong, they cling to them anyway as if they were gospel.

 

And yes, there absolutely are studies out there on vaccines.  Middle son's university does some of them - including trying to develop one for Aids.

 

Science knowledgeable folks realize there are problems with vaccines.  I haven't seen one doubt that.  But they also look at and understand stats.  Stats say "someone" isn't going to win the mega lotteries.  Out of millions, one wins and the news/advertising covers it as front story.  (We don't get the stories of the millions who bought tickets and lost.)  Does that mean stats are wrong?  No, but people who don't understand stats will insist it does.  It's very similar with vaccines.  Studies are ongoing with vaxs in order to improve them.  Science isn't "done."  It's a work in progress.  If we had waited until they were done many of us would have had polio, smallpox, measles, etc, and undoubtedly some of us wouldn't be here.

 

 

Oh, I know doctors who modify the schedule for there own kids. There is nothing about the specific schedule that makes it a gold standard scientifically--it is a practical schedule for getting widespread population coverage.

 

What I don't know of is significant numbers of trained medical doctors who believe that vaccines in general are bunk or are causing more problems than they prevent. I don't personally know any doctors who choose not to vaccinate their own children at all without medical contraindication. I don't know any doctors (though I am sure there are occasional ones out there) who buy into the conspiracy theory type stuff that goes around the anti-vax community. I don't know any doctors who think their child would be better off catching the measles than getting the measles vaccine.

 

Ditto.  I was told the main reason they do them all at once is because most parents don't want to come in over and over again to spread them out.  I don't know of anyone who opposes spreading them out for parents who are willing to do so.

 

Well I do think there is likely research that shows a link, but no one will share it. Maybe it's a conspiracy theory and maybe not, but I just don't believe we are getting the whole story. Honestly, it may not be a direct link, but if there is an indirect link (maybe children with a predisposition that are triggered by vaccines, or some sort of combination that affects certain children), we need to be willing to have an open discussion and more studies that aren't funded by pharmaceutical companies. I just don't understand all the fear associated with finding out the truth. Frankly, to me, if ONE CHILD is damaged by a vaccine, that is one too many.

 

There is no other area in our lives where we are willing to sacrifice children's health and/or lives to save others. I mean hell, everyone get vaccinated and risk injury so 1 out of 10,000 (maybe) doesn't die of measles? How is THAT more logical than just fighting the measles? Why are we so afraid of this? How many injured children ARE acceptable to make sure we keep our vaccine program going strong?

 

You feel that one child is important (no one disagrees), but feel the thousands or millions who would be severely affected by the disease aren't worthy of caring about?  That sounds really strange.  You'd buy the lottery ticket for the lottery where you'd have to be one in millions to win, but skip the lottery where it's one in thousands?  It sounds like you really don't understand that thousands/millions (pending time period and planet area you are considering) are saved with vaccines and comparatively only a handful have problems.  Those problems are usually light and not lasting, though sometimes act as a warning that medically that individual should skip them in the future.

[creekland]

Chiropractors aren't qualified to say anything about vaccinations.  The reason they oppose vaccination goes back to the origins and philosophy of chiropractic care, which has a view of disease that is based on an improper flow of energy in the body, rather than on infection from disease organisms.  Something that vaccinations would not help.

 

We just returned from taking my dad to his chiropractor.  There were all sorts of sayings on the wall and on a changing screen about how typical medical care is not good and to be healthy one should avoid it all.  

 

It was rather scary TBH - definitely doesn't give me good vibes about chiropractors and really reminded me of the prosperity gospel.

 

I fully agree that many times our bodies will heal themselves.  We're designed that way whether one gives God or nature credit for it.  But then there are those other times... like with the 2 year old who recently died from pneumonia because her parents wouldn't take her to a doctor.  I doubt a chiropractor would have healed her either.

 

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/03/minister_and_grandfather_of_2-.html

 

I'm against most prescription meds in general, but some are very worthy.  Is healthy living going to help that student with childhood (Type I) diabetes?  Or will the chiropractor?

[Jean in Newcastle]

We just returned from taking my dad to his chiropractor.  There were all sorts of sayings on the wall and on a changing screen about how typical medical care is not good and to be healthy one should avoid it all.  

 

It was rather scary TBH - definitely doesn't give me good vibes about chiropractors and really reminded me of the prosperity gospel.

 

I fully agree that many times our bodies will heal themselves.  We're designed that way whether one gives God or nature credit for it.  But then there are those other times... like with the 2 year old who recently died from pneumonia because her parents wouldn't take her to a doctor.  I doubt a chiropractor would have healed her either.

 

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/03/minister_and_grandfather_of_2-.html

 

I'm against most prescription meds in general, but some are very worthy.  Is healthy living going to help that student with childhood (Type I) diabetes?  Or will the chiropractor?

 

There are lots of chiropractors out there.  All the ones I've gone to have recognized their limits as chiropractors and their legal scope of practice (at least in my state).  My chiropractor says that having your spine adjusted (which impacts the nervous system of course since your nerves go out from your spine) can help to boost your immune system.  And I have no problem with that.  But it is a far cry from some of the snakeoil salesmen out there that I have heard about but have never gone to. 

 

This underscores though my point that we all have to do our homework.  Allopathic doctors can have blindspots and biases.    Some just push drugs or surgery no matter what is best for the patient.  Naturopathic doctors can have blindspots and biases.  Some are into crystals and other things with no scientific backing.  Some (like mine) are extremely knowledgeable about regular allopathic lab testing and meds and use them in addition to more holistic approaches. Chiropractors can also have blindspots and biases.  Some go outside their scope of practice and promise things that chiropractic care can't deliver.  Others are very good at adjusting spines and thus alleviating pain and increasing functionality.  Looking at reviews and their website and talking to them can help you to identify which ones are good or not. 

[maize]

Random sampling of recent research on autism. Note that none of these studies provide some kind of conclusive "this is the cause of autism" evidence--each is one possible piece of the puzzle, needing further study and confirmation. Research on autism is intensive and ongoing; if only the explanation were so simple as "autism is caused by a vaccine"--the medical community would honestly rejoice if they could find such a clear cause and doctors all over the country would jump to recommend changes to the current vaccine regimen.

 

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170427091740.htm

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170222131515.htm

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170126083605.htm

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160901152140.htm

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170215130707.htm

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170131124146.htm

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161115083700.htm

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160616140723.htm

[Bluegoat]

There are lots of chiropractors out there.  All the ones I've gone to have recognized their limits as chiropractors and their legal scope of practice (at least in my state).  My chiropractor says that having your spine adjusted (which impacts the nervous system of course since your nerves go out from your spine) can help to boost your immune system.  And I have no problem with that.  But it is a far cry from some of the snakeoil salesmen out there that I have heard about but have never gone to. 

 

This underscores though my point that we all have to do our homework.  Allopathic doctors can have blindspots and biases.    Some just push drugs or surgery no matter what is best for the patient.  Naturopathic doctors can have blindspots and biases.  Some are into crystals and other things with no scientific backing.  Some (like mine) are extremely knowledgeable about regular allopathic lab testing and meds and use them in addition to more holistic approaches. Chiropractors can also have blindspots and biases.  Some go outside their scope of practice and promise things that chiropractic care can't deliver.  Others are very good at adjusting spines and thus alleviating pain and increasing functionality.  Looking at reviews and their website and talking to them can help you to identify which ones are good or not. 

 

Well, I agree to some extent.  But, what about the theory behind chiropractic care?  If it is essentially bogus, it just isn't going to have the health effects it claims - and benefits will be because they stumbled onto the right things for the wrong reason.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, I agree to some extent.  But, what about the theory behind chiropractic care?  If it is essentially bogus, it just isn't going to have the health effects it claims - and benefits will be because they stumbled onto the right things for the wrong reason.

 

What theory do you think is behind chiropractic care?  The theory is that the skeletal system should be in proper alignment so that nerves aren't pinched or otherwise impeded and so that people can have proper posture and body mechanics.  https://www.acatoday.org/Patients/Why-Choose-Chiropractic/What-is-Chiropractic

[StaceyinLA]

Most of those I've heard of who have problems with vaccines (totally anti-vax) are also against pretty much all of modern medicine. It's a mindset - almost like the prosperity gospel mindset TBH. I've no doubt they believe what they say. I've no doubt they also are guessing at a good bit of what they say. They have theories, but until those theories are proven, well... and like the prosperity gospel, even when the theories are proven wrong, they cling to them anyway as if they were gospel.

 

And yes, there absolutely are studies out there on vaccines. Middle son's university does some of them - including trying to develop one for Aids.

 

Science knowledgeable folks realize there are problems with vaccines. I haven't seen one doubt that. But they also look at and understand stats. Stats say "someone" isn't going to win the mega lotteries. Out of millions, one wins and the news/advertising covers it as front story. (We don't get the stories of the millions who bought tickets and lost.) Does that mean stats are wrong? No, but people who don't understand stats will insist it does. It's very similar with vaccines. Studies are ongoing with vaxs in order to improve them. Science isn't "done." It's a work in progress. If we had waited until they were done many of us would have had polio, smallpox, measles, etc, and undoubtedly some of us wouldn'

 

 

You feel that one child is important (no one disagrees), but feel the thousands or millions who would be severely affected by the disease aren't worthy of caring about? That sounds really strange. You'd buy the lottery ticket for the lottery where you'd have to be one in millions to win, but skip the lottery where it's one in thousands? It sounds like you really don't understand that thousands/millions (pending time period and planet area you are considering) are saved with vaccines and comparatively only a handful have problems. Those problems are usually light and not lasting, though sometimes act as a warning that medically that individual should skip them in the future.

Can you share some statistics with me of those who have died of "vaccine-preventable" illnesses (in the US) in the last 10, 20, 30 years? And I put that in quotes because obviously if they've contracted one of these diseases, they either weren't vaccinated, or had a vaccine that didn't work properly.

 

Because, yes, I do think one child's life lost from a vaccine is one too many, and I'd be willing to be that anyone who has a permanently injured child from a vaccine would agree that their child's life is/was just as important as others.

[Bluegoat]

What theory do you think is behind chiropractic care?  The theory is that the skeletal system should be in proper alignment so that nerves aren't pinched or otherwise impeded and so that people can have proper posture and body mechanics.  https://www.acatoday.org/Patients/Why-Choose-Chiropractic/What-is-Chiropractic

 

I think that's a pretty sanatized version.  The theory of is a bit like what you hear in acupuncture - that disease states come about when the energy in your body - which is called the innate intelligence - can't move around freely. 

 

Most chiropractors now also allow that there are other causes for disease and accept some scientific thinking about that, but they still accept the theoretical basis that gave rise to chiropractic approaches in the first place.  Practitioners that look at it purely within the scope of a scientifically based practice are in the minority. 

 

So - while some do see it as a rationally-empirically based approach, the practice really wasn't developed on that basis, it was developed more like a revealed, intuitive, metaphysical knowledge, and it's logical structures are based on that.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Can you share some statistics with me of those who have died of "vaccine-preventable" illnesses (in the US) in the last 10, 20, 30 years? And I put that in quotes because obviously if they've contracted one of these diseases, they either weren't vaccinated, or had a vaccine that didn't work properly.

 

Because, yes, I do think one child's life lost from a vaccine is one too many, and I'd be willing to be that anyone who has a permanently injured child from a vaccine would agree that their child's life is/was just as important as others.

 

The number in the U.S. is going to be very, very low because, you know, vaccinations.

[Caroline]

Can you share some statistics with me of those who have died of "vaccine-preventable" illnesses (in the US) in the last 10, 20, 30 years? And I put that in quotes because obviously if they've contracted one of these diseases, they either weren't vaccinated, or had a vaccine that didn't work properly.

 

Because, yes, I do think one child's life lost from a vaccine is one too many, and I'd be willing to be that anyone who has a permanently injured child from a vaccine would agree that their child's life is/was just as important as others.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2015/07/02/first-u-s-measles-death-in-more-than-a-decade/amp/

[Bluegoat]

Can you share some statistics with me of those who have died of "vaccine-preventable" illnesses (in the US) in the last 10, 20, 30 years? And I put that in quotes because obviously if they've contracted one of these diseases, they either weren't vaccinated, or had a vaccine that didn't work properly.

 

Because, yes, I do think one child's life lost from a vaccine is one too many, and I'd be willing to be that anyone who has a permanently injured child from a vaccine would agree that their child's life is/was just as important as others.

 

Why would that mean quotes are required? 

 

You understand, that if a vaccine works well and people get it, there will be more effects from the vaccine than from getting the disease?  But fewer will be affected than if there is no vaccine at all?

 

If you want to see what happens when people stop vaccinating, look at Europe.

[StaceyinLA]

When your fallback position is simply "I know the truth and everyone else is hiding it!" then there really is no need for further discussion. It probably doesn't help that you have seriously overstated the risk of vaccine injury in your own mind.

 

That is NOT my position. FWIW, my children HAD vaccines, and boosters when they went to college. We did a very delayed, selective schedule, but they have had some. It's interesting to note that neither of my daughters were immune to rubella when they found out they were pregnant, even though they had been vaccinated a few years prior. I have done a lot more reading and research over the last 6-7 years since I've had grandchildren, and the more I read, the more I see vaccine failure and ineffectiveness. We also have 3 vaccine-injured boys in our family (extended, as in my nieces and nephews), and one vaccine-injured girl.

 

As far as overstating injury, I just don't believe I am. One doesn't have to die or be permanently disabled to be considered vaccine injured. We know, right now, two girls right around a year old, unrelated, having unexplained seizures. Both of them have been vaccinated on schedule and both have been having seizures on and off for months. There is ZERO explanation, and of course, no one has mentioned vaccines, but this type of thing actually does happen often. Seizures are one of the main common side effects of the MMR and occur in 1 in 3,000 children who receive the vaccine. That's not THAT minuscule of a risk. They are also side effects of other vaccines. I DO realize many of the seizures may be harmless, but in these children, whose parents would never think to question the vaccine or the doctor, it has caused them both to be put on anti-seizure meds and go through an awful lot of testing. Neither of these babies had ever had a seizure prior to being vaccinated.

 

Bottom line; why can't a doctor just admit that could be the cause, tell them it's considered a "normal" reaction and move on? Why must we pretend it never happens?!?

 

I think this is my absolute biggest issue with all of it; they are so big on pushing vaccines on everyone that they won't even be honest about what COULD and DOES happen to some children.

 

My other issue; people deciding that just because someone is skeptical means they must just be ignorant. The information regarding side effects and injuries is not made up. Sure, maybe on paper the severe risks seem small, but they aren't small when they affect YOUR child.

Edited May 11, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[StaceyinLA]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2015/07/02/first-u-s-measles-death-in-more-than-a-decade/amp/

And she certainly could've contracted it from a vaccinated individual. They aren't even able to determine that. The thing is, if people contracted measles naturally when they were young, they'd have lifelong immunity. She could've gotten it from someone whose vaccine had worn off. It's just too difficult to determine how long they are effective in some people.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That is NOT my position. FWIW, my children HAD vaccines, and boosters when they went to college. We did a very delayed, selective schedule, but they have had some. It's interesting to note that neither of my daughters were immune to rubella when they found out they were pregnant, even though they had been vaccinated a few years prior. I have done a lot more reading and research over the last 6-7 years since I've had grandchildren, and the more I read, the more I see vaccine failure and ineffectiveness. We also have 3 vaccine-injured boys in our family (extended, as in my nieces and nephews), and one vaccine-injured girl.

 

As far as overstating injury, I just don't believe I am. One doesn't have to die or be permanently disabled to be considered vaccine injured. We know, right now, two girls right around a year old, unrelated, having unexplained seizures. Both of them have been vaccinated on schedule and both have been having seizures on and off for months. There is ZERO explanation, and of course, no one has mentioned vaccines, but this type of thing actually does happen often. Seizures are one of the main common side effects of the MMR and occur in 1 in 3,000 children who receive the vaccine. That's not THAT minuscule of a risk. They are also side effects of other vaccines. I DO realize many of the seizures may be harmless, but in these children, whose parents would never think to question the vaccine or the doctor, it has caused them both to be put on anti-seizure meds and go through an awful lot of testing. Neither of these babies had ever had a seizure prior to being vaccinated.

 

Bottom line; why can't a doctor just admit that could be the cause, tell them it's considered a "normal" reaction and move on? Why must we pretend it never happens?!?

 

I think this is my absolute biggest issue with all of it; they are so big on pushing vaccines on everyone that they won't even be honest about what COULD and DOES happen to some children.

 

My other issue; people deciding that just because someone is skeptical means they must just be ignorant. The information regarding side effects and injuries is not made up. Sure, maybe on paper the severe risks seem small, but they aren't small when they affect YOUR child.

 

1.)  That is your position, as it is what YOU said.

 

2.) I get the feeling you use the term "vaccine-injured" quite liberally. 

 

 

[StaceyinLA]

1.) That is your position, as it is what YOU said.

 

2.) I get the feeling you use the term "vaccine-injured" quite liberally.

 

 

I may use the term liberally because I think there are a lot of side effects that are not necessarily minor, but certainly not considered debilitating. Perhaps vaccine-affected would be better for those types of side effects.

 

And I said I think there is likely research, but no one will share it. I didn't say I know the truth one way or the other. I just think there is a lot more to the story, and I stand by that.

Edited May 11, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that's a pretty sanatized version. The theory of is a bit like what you hear in acupuncture - that disease states come about when the energy in your body - which is called the innate intelligence - can't move around freely.

 

Most chiropractors now also allow that there are other causes for disease and accept some scientific thinking about that, but they still accept the theoretical basis that gave rise to chiropractic approaches in the first place. Practitioners that look at it purely within the scope of a scientifically based practice are in the minority.

 

So - while some do see it as a rationally-empirically based approach, the practice really wasn't developed on that basis, it was developed more like a revealed, intuitive, metaphysical knowledge, and it's logical structures are based on that.

That link matches the views of every single chiropractor that I have gone to in the last 30 years. And I have gone mostly once a week for the last 20 years. (I do not go for the resolution of a temporary problem like most people but as I mentioned up thread have muscular skeletal problems that can't be cured but can be alleviated by chiropractic care. ). I have gone to or talked to at least half a dozen chiropractors in that time so I don't think that I am finding the "one anomaly ".. In fact, in my state it is illegal for chiropractors to practice outside of that scope. I looked up the applicable law to make sure.

[Ausmumof3]

I have asked if kids are vaccinated. It can be done. You just have to not be judgmental about it. Least, not that anyone can tell.

 

Around us, at the time my kids were little, it seemed the vaccine that everyone was avoiding was tetanus. Some people had been told by various drs that that was ok because "no one gets tetanus anymore". I would doubt that dr's competence if that's the story they were giving people.

 

But then, I'm constantly surprised by the lack of scientific understanding in many people I know. It just added an extra layer of surprise that someone who had been through a medical/science degree could come out with that statement.

And it may be that was the persons interpretation not the Drs actual words.

[creekland]

Can you share some statistics with me of those who have died of "vaccine-preventable" illnesses (in the US) in the last 10, 20, 30 years? And I put that in quotes because obviously if they've contracted one of these diseases, they either weren't vaccinated, or had a vaccine that didn't work properly.

 

Because, yes, I do think one child's life lost from a vaccine is one too many, and I'd be willing to be that anyone who has a permanently injured child from a vaccine would agree that their child's life is/was just as important as others.

 

I'm confused as to why you would compare those stats rather than the incidents of death from vaccine preventable illnesses from before vaccination (or in countries where they aren't vaccinating many - or inadequate amounts like in Romania as per link) vs those who died from getting the vaccine.  If not deaths, then severe issues in either group.

 

If you compare apples to apples, there's no comparison.  This is why at least the vast majority who lived through those diseases (having friends and siblings who weren't so fortunate) had no problem adding whatever weapon was available to fight these diseases - including vaccinating their kids and incorporating vaccs into schools.  (When I was in elementary school, that's where we all got our vaccinations - no one opted out in my class.)

 

The problem with today's generation is they have no experience with life when those diseases were rampant.

 

Again, no one is disputing that a relative few have health issues from vaccines - most of these issues aren't biggies and those with larger issues should possible stay away from other similar vaccinations.  What they are saying is the alternative is worse for far more if they get the disease.  You say (in a later post) that kids should get the disease and have lifelong immunity.  The point you miss is not everyone lives.  More die from the disease than die from the vaccination.  If we were to get outbreaks again (can happen - look at the Romanian article or the US one), I'd prefer having the vaccination to not odds-wise.

[Ausmumof3]

Well I do think there is likely research that shows a link, but no one will share it. Maybe it's a conspiracy theory and maybe not, but I just don't believe we are getting the whole story. Honestly, it may not be a direct link, but if there is an indirect link (maybe children with a predisposition that are triggered by vaccines, or some sort of combination that affects certain children), we need to be willing to have an open discussion and more studies that aren't funded by pharmaceutical companies. I just don't understand all the fear associated with finding out the truth. Frankly, to me, if ONE CHILD is damaged by a vaccine, that is one too many.

 

There is no other area in our lives where we are willing to sacrifice children's health and/or lives to save others. I mean hell, everyone get vaccinated and risk injury so 1 out of 10,000 (maybe) doesn't die of measles? How is THAT more logical than just fighting the measles? Why are we so afraid of this? How many injured children ARE acceptable to make sure we keep our vaccine program going strong?

 

ETA that I have to take my dgs to speech, so if I don't respond that's why.

Well the vaccine causes encephalitis or possibly death at a much lower rate than contracting the disease. Given that without vaccination in the population chances of catching the disease are almost guaranteed, the vaccine is safer than the disease.

[Ausmumof3]

Chiropractors aren't qualified to say anything about vaccinations. The reason they oppose vaccination goes back to the origins and philosophy of chiropractic care, which has a view of disease that is based on an improper flow of energy in the body, rather than on infection from disease organisms. Something that vaccinations would not help.

Isn't that the basis of Chinese medicine as well.