I was wrong (conversation about women changing their names when they marry)

[Greta]

In a previous conversation here, I said that I didn't find the feminist arguments for keeping one's birth name after marriage to be very compelling. It wasn't that I was opposed to women keeping their name when they marry (what other people do or don't do with their names is no concern of mine!) just that I didn't think there was any particular reason to reject tradition.

 

Turns out it's not a completely innocuous tradition. In some people's minds it is apparently quite symbolic of traditional gender roles.

 

http://www.workingmother.com/half-american-adults-think-it-should-be-illegal-for-married-women-to-keep-their-last-names?src=SOC&dom=fb

[Crimson Wife]

I can't believe that any significant number of the study participants thought that the fictional husband should divorce the fictional wife just for working late. Now if she were actually having an affair when she is claiming to "work late", that would be grounds for divorce. But working late in the hopes of securing a promotion and raise? SMH

[Greta]

I can't believe that any significant number of the study participants thought that the fictional husband should divorce the fictional wife just for working late. Now if she were actually having an affair when she is claiming to "work late", that would be grounds for divorce. But working late in the hopes of securing a promotion and raise? SMH

Agreed!

 

I followed links to see if I could find more information about the study that said half of those surveyed felt that women should be legally required to change her name (wth?), but I can't find details. I hope it was skewed by a small sample size or something!

[Reefgazer]

Well, it's not just the symbolism of where it originated, but the fact that my name is tied to my identity, which I spent 31 years building before I married and was in no hurry to discard.  To me, that was the best reason of all.

In a previous conversation here, I said that I didn't find the feminist arguments for keeping one's birth name after marriage to be very compelling. It wasn't that I was opposed to women keeping their name when they marry (what other people do or don't do with their names is no concern of mine!) just that I didn't think there was any particular reason to reject tradition.

Turns out it's not a completely innocuous tradition. In some people's minds it is apparently quite symbolic of traditional gender roles.

http://www.workingmother.com/half-american-adults-think-it-should-be-illegal-for-married-women-to-keep-their-last-names?src=SOC&dom=fb

 

[LucyStoner]

not surprised by the results. I would have been before I got married but in 15 years of marriage I remain rather bemused and disgusted by the sheer volume of crap people read into our name when they find out what name we use and what name we gave our kids. Besides reading way too much into it, some people take it as a personal affront. People are crazy and maybe in some instances crazy stupid. 🙄😂🙄

[Greta]

Well, it's not just the symbolism of where it originated, but the fact that my name is tied to my identity, which I spent 31 years building before I married and was in no hurry to discard. To me, that was the best reason of all.

Yes, sounds like a very good reason to me! I think there are many good reasons for a woman to choose not to change her name. Initially I thought that rejecting patriarchy wasn't really one of them, because I was simply thinking that a patrilineal naming system doesn't necessarily equal patriarchy. Apparently I was wrong!

[Greta]

not surprised by the results. I would have been before I got married but in 15 years of marriage I remain rather bemused and disgusted by the sheer volume of crap people read into our name when they find out what name we use and what name we gave our kids. Besides reading way too much into it, some people take it as a personal affront. People are crazy and maybe in some instances crazy stupid. 🙄😂🙄

Very weird that people get so emotional about something that doesn't affect them (or anyone else) at all.

[vonfirmath]

I now sponsor some children in South America and was fascinated to hear about their naming system

 

Names there generally are of the form:

FirstName MiddleName FatherLastName MotherLastName

 

Women do not appear to change their name on marriage. But pass on their 3rd name (FatherLastName) as the MotherLastName to their children.

 

[Greta]

I now sponsor some children in South America and was fascinated to hear about their naming system

 

Names there generally are of the form:

FirstName MiddleName FatherLastName MotherLastName

 

Women do not appear to change their name on marriage. But pass on their 3rd name (FatherLastName) as the MotherLastName to their children.

That's cool! I remember talking about different kinship and naming systems in an Anthropology class I took in college. Interesting stuff.

[LucyStoner]

Very weird that people get so emotional about something that doesn't affect them (or anyone else) at all.

Right?

 

I could understand if my FIL was upset that we broke with the norm on naming our kids but the people most bothered aren't family and don't share the name we opted to not use. What the heck?

 

For clarity I will say that my husband and I both added each other's name when we got married. So say I was Lucy Stone like my avatar and I married Henry Blackwell. I became Lucy Stone Blackwell and he became Henry Stone Blackwell. When our son arrived we decided to name him John Stone rather than either Blackwell or Stone Blackwell. And in practice we both use Stone more often than Stone Blackwell.

Edited February 9, 2017 by LucyStoner

[TranquilMind]

Well, it's not just the symbolism of where it originated, but the fact that my name is tied to my identity, which I spent 31 years building before I married and was in no hurry to discard.  To me, that was the best reason of all.

 

I kept my name much longer than that.  But I'm a pragmatist, and finally decided it would be easier if we all had the same last name, so I didn't have to constantly explain that no, I wasn't remarried to someone other than their father, and yes, we actually were married.

 

Not to mention the stupid state forced me to change my name well into my 40's. It said my name was suddenly too long to fit into Social Security boxes, so I had to change it.  That was insane.  What do people with ethnic super-long names do?  No answer.  Mine wasn't that long. 

 

At any rate, we all have the same last name now, and I'm not even slightly diminished by that.  I still write out the full name I have always used, but officially it has changed.

[Greta]

Right?

 

I could understand if my FIL was upset that we broke with the norm on naming our kids but the people most bothered aren't family and don't share the name we opted to not use. What the heck?

 

For clarity I will say that my husband and I both added each other's name when we got married. So say I was Lucy Stone like my avatar and I married Henry Blackwell. I became Lucy Stone Blackwell and he became Henry Stone Blackwell. When our son arrived we decided to name him John Stone rather than either Blackwell or Stone Blackwell. And in practice we both use Stone more often than Stone Blackwell.

I was a little curious, and was thinking about asking you how you'd managed it. The biggest part of my motivation for changing my name was that I wanted to have the same name as my kid - can't offer a rational explanation for why, I just wanted that. But you ended up with the same name as your kid anyway! :-) It seems like most of the couples I know where the wife kept her birth name, the kids ended up with the husband's last name, or sometimes with the two names hyphenated, which would get complicated after a couple of generations. :D

 

Learning about what jerks some people can be about it kind of makes me wish I hadn't changed it -- it's always fun to irritate a sexist jerk, right? ;-) j/k I like my married name. I don't like having to spell it two or three times before people get it, but I guess that's another thread. :lol:

[Greta]

Not to mention the stupid state forced me to change my name well into my 40's. It said my name was suddenly too long to fit into Social Security boxes, so I had to change it. That was insane. What do people with ethnic super-long names do? No answer. Mine wasn't that long.

 

That is ridiculous!

[Crimson Wife]

I was glad to dump the hyphenated abomination that my parents had inflicted upon me when I got married but as long as the couple is in mutual agreement, it's all good to me.

 

Keep the maiden name, adopt the husband's name, hyphenate, both spouses hyphenate, create a new blended name that both spouses take, whatever floats your boat :)

[chiguirre]

I now sponsor some children in South America and was fascinated to hear about their naming system

 

Names there generally are of the form:

FirstName MiddleName FatherLastName MotherLastName

 

Women do not appear to change their name on marriage. But pass on their 3rd name (FatherLastName) as the MotherLastName to their children.

 

Not only do women not change their last name, it is seriously embarrassing to have the same last name as your child. It means that their father refused to recognize them, not just that the parents aren't married, but that the father would not put his name on the birth certificate.

 

In the US, I started using MyLastName de DH'sLastName on sign up sheets to clarify whose mom I was. This is also what I had on my business cards in Venezuela. For everyday stuff, you only use your first last name but on more formal documents you use both with married women using MaidenName de HusbandName. I did get the stink eye sometimes for my odd name but I just don't give a rip. IMHO if you care that much about my name, you're not someone I want to spend time with anyway.

[SparklyUnicorn]

yuck

 

 

[wintermom]

It's a very narrow mind-set that dictates everyone must do the exact same thing or they will be fined/arrested.

[maize]

I jumped at the chance to change my name from a long unwieldy one that took me years to learn how to spell to a nice simple one :)

 

I like the whole family having one name, but don't care whose name it started out as. Dh made up an abbreviated combination of my maiden name and his family name that he sometimes uses to refer to our family--maybe that tradition could catch on :)

[foxbridgeacademy]

I changed my name the first time I got married, although I fought it but the ex made me so miserable and hounded me (threatened to divorce me) if I didn't that I just gave in (I was 18 and rather passive).  When I got married this time I kept my maiden name and DH offered to change his to match (still does, it's a cool name).  We gave the kids Dh's last name because hyphening our names makes a very inappropriate term and I am still a bit traditional.  I do get a lot of flack, mostly from school officials about the name differences and even a few "how..... odd" when I explain that no these are Dh's children and yes we are married.

[Outdoorsy Type]

I jumped at the chance to change my name from a long unwieldy one that took me years to learn how to spell to a nice simple one :)

 

I like the whole family having one name, but don't care whose name it started out as. Dh made up an abbreviated combination of my maiden name and his family name that he sometimes uses to refer to our family--maybe that tradition could catch on :)

Not quite the same, but I was thrilled to lose my overly common first/last combo when I married. I only regret not changing my middle while I had the chance.

[Greta]

I changed my name the first time I got married, although I fought it but the ex made me so miserable and hounded me (threatened to divorce me) if I didn't that I just gave in (I was 18 and rather passive). When I got married this time I kept my maiden name and DH offered to change his to match (still does, it's a cool name). We gave the kids Dh's last name because hyphening our names makes a very inappropriate term and I am still a bit traditional. I do get a lot of flack, mostly from school officials about the name differences and even a few "how..... odd" when I explain that no these are Dh's children and yes we are married.

I'm sorry your first husband was a jerk about it. Sounds like you got a better deal second time around. :D

 

My husband was chill about the whole thing. It was entirely my choice to change it. If I'd had a career and had made a name for myself I seriously doubt I would have changed it. But I was quite young.

[Greta]

Oh, also, I simply liked dh's last name. It's an unusual name, but I did know one elderly couple with the name when I was growing up. They were very sweet people, so the name had a positive connotation to me. Admitting that I'm shallow, if he'd had a name I didn't like, I absolutely would have kept my own!

[eternalsummer]

DH and I are quite socially conservative (probably more so than 98% of this board) but I did not change my name.  His twin sister has the same first name as me and she was already kind of pissed I existed, so taking her name was not something I wanted to do.  I don't love my last name but I am attached to it.

[Janeway]

Actually, I do not think it should be allowed. I think it is ok to go by the name, but legally, the name should remain the original name and if someone wants to change it, they should have to go through a regular court order name change process. Here is why...women can change their names and get away with credit issues and legal issues. Men have to go to court to prove they have a clean record and no one is trying to find them to collect and such. Women changed their names to the man's name back when women and children were property. Now days, women have their own property, careers, criminal records, debts, etc. 

[Greta]

Actually, I do not think it should be allowed. I think it is ok to go by the name, but legally, the name should remain the original name and if someone wants to change it, they should have to go through a regular court order name change process. Here is why...women can change their names and get away with credit issues and legal issues. Men have to go to court to prove they have a clean record and no one is trying to find them to collect and such. Women changed their names to the man's name back when women and children were property. Now days, women have their own property, careers, criminal records, debts, etc. 

 

 

Is this really a problem?  I've never heard of it - which is not to say I'm debating you, just curious for more info.

[Crimson Wife]

Actually, I do not think it should be allowed. I think it is ok to go by the name, but legally, the name should remain the original name and if someone wants to change it, they should have to go through a regular court order name change process. Here is why...women can change their names and get away with credit issues and legal issues. 

 

Huh? Credit problems are tied to someone's SSN and THAT doesn't change with a marital name change.

[maize]

I do think all states should allow either spouse to easily change their name at marriage; some do, but others only allow "automatic" name changes (without a lot of extra paperwork etc.) for the bride.

[LucyStoner]

Actually, I do not think it should be allowed. I think it is ok to go by the name, but legally, the name should remain the original name and if someone wants to change it, they should have to go through a regular court order name change process. Here is why...women can change their names and get away with credit issues and legal issues. Men have to go to court to prove they have a clean record and no one is trying to find them to collect and such. Women changed their names to the man's name back when women and children were property. Now days, women have their own property, careers, criminal records, debts, etc.

Eh, credit and bills follow you via social security, address and former names.

 

Also, the process for my husband to change his name was the exact same. We just showed the solmnized marriage license to the Social Security and DMV. He did not have to go to court. A certain time after the wedding, we'd both have needed to file a name change with the court.

 

I think some of your impressions are dated or perhaps specific to your state.

Edited February 10, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Tanaqui]

Legally, Janeway, it's never compulsory to go through the court. Common law name changes are legal and valid - although the DMV might try to disagree.

[Janeway]

Is this really a problem?  I've never heard of it - which is not to say I'm debating you, just curious for more info.

Yeah, it is. 

 

If two people marry and the man wants to change his name, he is often put through having to go to court and proving to the judge that he does not have a past he is hiding from. If a woman wants to change, she just turns in a copy of her marriage certificate. 

 

One of my husband's relatives has a long history. She also keeps getting remarried. She lucked out this last time though. She has a not incredibly uncommon first name and she married someone with the last name Smith. I suspect she will never drop that last name.

 

Also, if you want to just change your surname, not for marriage, or if you are a man, you have to put out a notice about the name so that anyone who has claims with you can come forward to speak up and even find you if they need to after the fact. And the courts do not have to approve it.   https://www.depts.ttu.edu/sls/forms/Name-Changes-in-Texas.pdf

[Garga]

I wish I hadn't changed my name. I liked my maiden name better than my married name.

 

DH and I talked and talked about it. He didn't mind either way. In the end I changed it because I didn't want to explain myself to his family, but I was only 19 and painfully shy and easily intimidated.

 

Now, I would have no problem explaining things. Actually, I wouldn't explain, and I wouldn't be shy or embarrased about it. I'd treat it like the non-issue it should be.

 

I'm tempted to go back and change it, but it seems like a hassle now. Plus I like having the same name as the kids.

[IfIOnly]

Interesting article. My middle name is my mom's last name and my last is my dad's. Love that. I'm not sure if my legal last name is my husband's or my dad's. My DL is my husband's but I have to file taxes under my maiden name because I didn't change it with the SS office as well. Since my dad died with no siblings to carry or children that carried on his family name, I'm glad it worked out the way it did- whatever "it" is. :)

Edited February 10, 2017 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[Alice]

I jumped at the chance to change my name from a long unwieldy one that took me years to learn how to spell to a nice simple one :)

 

 

 

This was me too. My parents hyphenated their names and mine (back in the 1970s). It was such a pain growing up because it was so unusual and noone ever got it right. It was also so long and I was tired of spelling it. I used to joke that all I wanted in a husband was a man with a short last name and no debt (after my med school debt). Dh's family name is about as short as possible and he had no debt so I tell him he is the man of my dreams. :) 

[eternalsummer]

I wish I hadn't changed my name. I liked my maiden name better than my married name.

 

DH and I talked and talked about it. He didn't mind either way. In the end I changed it because I didn't want to explain myself to his family, but I was only 19 and painfully shy and easily intimidated.

 

Now, I would have no problem explaining things. Actually, I wouldn't explain, and I wouldn't be shy or embarrased about it. I'd treat it like the non-issue it should be.

 

I'm tempted to go back and change it, but it seems like a hassle now. Plus I like having the same name as the kids.

 

It is a non-issue for me, but I will tell you that it is a pain to be constantly explaining to the dentist, school, doctor, swimming coach, hockey registration, landlord, etc. that you are married to the child's father, you just didn't change your name (and they look at you at that point, so you say "because he has this twin sister" yadayadayada.)

 

I don't wish I'd changed mine, as I like my name more than I dislike the annoyance of explaining, but I do wish that maybe no one changed their names?  That would be great.  I'd like to fit in.

[FaithManor]

Dd kept her maiden name. It was going to be expensive and very time consuming to try to change over her FEMA certifications and all her medical licensing. She would also be unable to work in the state they were moving to until all of it was done due to security and licensing issues if she chose to change her name.

 

Dh's family really wanted me to change mine. I had a terrible time with the social security administration and for six months could not get them to process the paperwork. No one could drain the hang up. I made the mistake of signing our taxes with Dh's last name because that is what I was using socially. Of course that last name did not match the SS# name so we got flagged for an audit. Sigh...not a fun first year of marriage experience. But I will say this, when an IRS agent calls the social security administration and tells them to get off their backsides and process the darn paperwork, it is amazing how fast something gets done! So if I had it to do over again, I would not do it.

 

My boys think it would be weird to have their future wives give up a name they have used their whole lives. So I doubt they would ever pressure a wife to do such a thing. Since we are Danish and Icelandic on dh's side, they intend on using the Icelandic system for offspring. Sons get their father's surname, daughters their mother's. So sibs would not have the same last name, but not unusual in some Scandanavian cultures. They like the idea of preserving the tradition from their grandfather's heritage.

[IfIOnly]

Dd kept her maiden name. It was going to be expensive and very time consuming to try to change over her FEMA certifications and all her medical licensing. She would also be unable to work in the state they were moving to until all of it was done due to security and licensing issues if she chose to change her name.

 

Dh's family really wanted me to change mine. I had a terrible time with the social security administration and for six months could not get them to process the paperwork. No one could drain the hang up. I made the mistake of signing our taxes with Dh's last name because that is what I was using socially. Of course that last name did not match the SS# name so we got flagged for an audit. Sigh...not a fun first year of marriage experience. But I will say this, when an IRS agent calls the social security administration and tells them to get off their backsides and process the darn paperwork, it is amazing how fast something gets done! So if I had it to do over again, I would not do it.

 

My boys think it would be weird to have their future wives give up a name they have used their whole lives. So I doubt they would ever pressure a wife to do such a thing. Since we are Danish and Icelandic on dh's side, they intend on using the Icelandic system for offspring. Sons get their father's surname, daughters their mother's. So sibs would not have the same last name, but not unusual in some Scandanavian cultures. They like the idea of preserving the tradition from their grandfather's heritage.

The SS was being a total pain with me too and I finally just got tired of the hassle and gave up.

[Julie Smith]

It is a non-issue for me, but I will tell you that it is a pain to be constantly explaining to the dentist, school, doctor, swimming coach, hockey registration, landlord, etc. that you are married to the child's father, you just didn't change your name (and they look at you at that point, so you say "because he has this twin sister" yadayadayada.)

 

I don't wish I'd changed mine, as I like my name more than I dislike the annoyance of explaining, but I do wish that maybe no one changed their names?  That would be great.  I'd like to fit in.

I don't have the same last name as my kids. (They do have my last name as their middle name)

 

But I have never had anyone question it, ask about it, or even comment on it.

[Frances]

Very weird that people get so emotional about something that doesn't affect them (or anyone else) at all.

Over the years the three things my family gets the most comments on are our names (I didn't change mine), not having a TV for most of our married life and all of our son's childhood, and homeschooling. Many times we've had people act as though we are judging them for doing something differently when they find out indirectly about our differences. It never ceases to amaze me.

[LucyStoner]

Also, if you want to just change your surname, not for marriage, or if you are a man, you have to put out a notice about the name so that anyone who has claims with you can come forward to speak up and even find you if they need to after the fact. And the courts do not have to approve it. https://www.depts.ttu.edu/sls/forms/Name-Changes-in-Texas.pdf

This is Texas. This is not everywhere.

 

My brother changed his name in court. He had to sign a document attesting he wasn't a fugitive or dodging debt but there was no check and no public notice. His order was signed an hour after he filled it out at the courthouse. He used that at the DMV that day. The only reason it took a whole hour was because the judge tactfully saw him last after the courtroom was empty in case he didn't want to out himself as transgender.

 

With gay marriage, name change rules will likely become less gender biased in the places they still are. Here both brides and grooms can change their names with just their marriage certificate. And the SS office everywhere only requires the marriage certificate.

[Greta]

But I have never had anyone question it, ask about it, or even comment on it.

I wonder if it's a regional difference.

[MercyA]

Many times we've had people act as though we are judging them for doing something differently when they find out indirectly about our differences. It never ceases to amaze me.

 

This seems to be the case with a lot of things, doesn't it? Like, why do people *care* what other people do? I don't get it.

 

If anyone has that much energy to spend worrying about stuff like this, they can call me and I'll find them something better to do. :)

 

I like my husband's last name much better than my maiden name, and I'm proud to have it, because he is a seriously amazing person. Other people should do whatever floats their boat.

Edited February 10, 2017 by MercyA

[goldberry]

A woman in our small town runs an insurance agency.. let's say the Jane Smith Insurance Agency, big sign.  Next thing you know it was Jane Syzmankorowsky Insurance Agency (other similar name with many letters, lots of consonants, and few vowels.)

 

I am a "take the name" girl usually, but dang....  I would have passed on that one.

[Julie Smith]

I wonder if it's a regional difference.

My Dh is from Quebec, and our wedding was in Quebec. (Even though we signed the paperwork in Ontario the day before since it meant less paper work for some reason I can't remember)

 

As it turns out what I heard was correct. In Quebec woman don't take their husbands name

http://globalnews.ca/news/2404384/does-quebecs-ban-on-married-names-infringe-on-womens-rights/

[Julie Smith]

This is Texas. This is not everywhere.

My brother changed his name in court. He had to sign a document attesting he wasn't a fugitive or dodging debt but there was no check and no public notice. His order was signed an hour after he filled it out at the courthouse. He used that at the DMV that day. The only reason it took a whole hour was because the judge tactfully saw him last after the courtroom was empty in case he didn't want to out himself as transgender.

With gay marriage, name change rules will likely become less gender biased in the places they still are. Here both brides and grooms can change their names with just their marriage certificate. And the SS office everywhere only requires the marriage certificate.

I don't know about men. But in Quebec unless you have an unusual circumstance it is illegal for a woman to change her name when she marries. It has been that way for decades.

[livetoread]

I don't have the same last name as my kids. (They do have my last name as their middle name)

 

But I have never had anyone question it, ask about it, or even comment on it.

Same here. Every once in a rare while someone will ask if I'm their legal parent and I'll say yes and that's that. It has been way less hassle than I even thought it was going to be and I've been married 23 years.

[Anne in CA]

Well, if you have a last name with POWER. Liz Chaney didn't change her name and just won a congressional seat. 

[Crimson Wife]

This was me too. My parents hyphenated their names and mine (back in the 1970s). It was such a pain growing up because it was so unusual and noone ever got it right. It was also so long and I was tired of spelling it.

 

I had to do a background check for my clinical coursework and it was a total PITA because I had to list any possible variation that records might be listed under.

 

Let's say my maiden name was Jane Doe-Smith and my married name is Jane Brown. I listed Jane Doe-Smith, Jane D. Smith, Jane Doesmith, Jane-Doe Smith, Jane Doe, and Jane Brown. 

 

My file got flagged because for some inexplicable reason there were records under Jane Brown-Smith :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:  Who hyphenates by putting the husband's surname first? Jane Smith-Brown isn't my name but at least that would've made sense.

[luuknam]

Actually, I do not think it should be allowed. I think it is ok to go by the name, but legally, the name should remain the original name and if someone wants to change it, they should have to go through a regular court order name change process. Here is why...women can change their names and get away with credit issues and legal issues. Men have to go to court to prove they have a clean record and no one is trying to find them to collect and such. Women changed their names to the man's name back when women and children were property. Now days, women have their own property, careers, criminal records, debts, etc. 

 

I was annoyed that when I renewed my (NL) passport, it had to have my full birth name, and then, optionally, in tiny print "spouse of ...". Even though I've been married for 12 years, and gone by my spouse's name all that time (driver's license, permanent residency card, etc), I didn't even have to put that on the passport. I figured it'd be a good idea to do let them write "spouse of", since I didn't want trouble with customs, but man... it used to be that if you took your spouse's name, that's what you got in your passport, with a required "maiden name" listed too. Now you just can't. Which also makes me wonder, what about the people who took their spouse's name, got divorced, but kept the name for whatever reason (kids, etc - certainly not uncommon)? I didn't see any option for that, only "spouse of ...". I don't know why they couldn't just leave it as it was... let people choose, require them to have their maiden name listed too if they did change it.

 

(and yes, I changed my name when I got married, because I didn't want to deal all the time with having trying to explain to Americans how to spell/pronounce my name)

[luuknam]

Who hyphenates by putting the husband's surname first?

 

The entire population of The Netherlands, and probably some other countries too.

[LucyStoner]

I don't know about men. But in Quebec unless you have an unusual circumstance it is illegal for a woman to change her name when she marries. It has been that way for decades.

Given the culture and social situation in the US I don't see such a law flying here.