I was wrong (conversation about women changing their names when they marry)

[luuknam]

I was annoyed that when I renewed my (NL) passport, it had to have my full birth name, and then, optionally, in tiny print "spouse of ...".

 

I should probably add that one thing that irked me about this is that "spouse of" sounds so much more like being property to me. While I know the history of taking your husband's name, *taking* something from somebody is usually not some sign of weakness or being someone else's property. If I take your lunch, for example, it tends to indicate that I'm the one in power - the one deciding whether that lunch is yours or mine, even though originally it was yours. Whereas "spouse of ..." does not sound like I'm the one in power. So, yeah, that annoyed me.

[fdrinca]

Right?

 

I could understand if my FIL was upset that we broke with the norm on naming our kids but the people most bothered aren't family and don't share the name we opted to not use. What the heck?

 

For clarity I will say that my husband and I both added each other's name when we got married. So say I was Lucy Stone like my avatar and I married Henry Blackwell. I became Lucy Stone Blackwell and he became Henry Stone Blackwell. When our son arrived we decided to name him John Stone rather than either Blackwell or Stone Blackwell. And in practice we both use Stone more often than Stone Blackwell.

We did the same! confuses the heck out of my poor gram...

[IfIOnly]

Curious, what have spouses done if both have their father's and mother's names? For example, Jane Smith-Johnson marries Jack Black-Hadley?

[eternalsummer]

I don't have the same last name as my kids. (They do have my last name as their middle name)

 

But I have never had anyone question it, ask about it, or even comment on it.

 

Possibly we live in different areas (I've lived in the midwest and a conservative but slightly more libertarian city in the mountain west).  Also, I have a fairly high anxiety about people who are giving me the side-eye.  And they do not have my last name as their middle name.

[lailasmum]

I didn't change my name when I married. The only people who get it wrong consistently are really elderly relatives who hang on to the tradition, They've been told but won't change their habit. They have occasionally written me cheques for the kids presents with my husband's surname and I just don't pay them in, it's not worth the fight with people who'll never respect my choice. 

 

When it comes to official stuff I've found that every business/institution copes just fine with me having a different surname to my kids. The only thing I've had a problem with is the bank because some spots in their banking software and documents automatically shorten the visible information to my husband's surname and our initials because of the space available even though my full name is on the account. It's just a bit annoying. 

[Carrie12345]

My sister changed her name when she got married, but she's been divorced for years and hasn't changed it back.  She doesn't feel like going through the whole thing and changing her professional license.  Her daughter has her boyfriend's last name. She doesn't intend to do the marriage thing again.  It's kind of funny b/c I always forget BOTH last names.  In my head, they're all my maiden name, even though that's not true for any of them.  :huh:

(I've only made the mistake out loud once. Now it just takes me an extra beat for my brain to pull up the right names.)

[Alice]

I had to do a background check for my clinical coursework and it was a total PITA because I had to list any possible variation that records might be listed under.

 

Let's say my maiden name was Jane Doe-Smith and my married name is Jane Brown. I listed Jane Doe-Smith, Jane D. Smith, Jane Doesmith, Jane-Doe Smith, Jane Doe, and Jane Brown. 

 

My file got flagged because for some inexplicable reason there were records under Jane Brown-Smith :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:  Who hyphenates by putting the husband's surname first? Jane Smith-Brown isn't my name but at least that would've made sense.

 

 

I find the same thing for me whenever one of those "possible last names" comes up. I'm listed as all kinds of weird combinations. I've had to do background checks for various organizations and it's never been a problem. None of them were high-level security clearance kind of checks though. 

 

I got married at the end of my medical residency so my medical diploma is in my maiden name. That hasn't been an issue either. I think that if I had already been established in practice I might have considered not changing it. But I hadn't started practicing yet so it was an easy time to change it. I think my Dad was a little sad that I never really practiced under my maiden name. I'm an only child so it was somewhat of a big deal to him that the name died with me. He never said anything overt but made a couple of comments about how it was weird to think of me as my new name and it would have been nice to hear Dr. ____. 

 

For my parents, they hyphenated it by putting my Mom's name first and then my Dad's. And then all three of us had the same name. So Mom was Jane Smith and Dad was Joe Jones and we all became the Smith-Jones family. They picked the order because in their case the other way sounded weird. Having a hyphenated name before marriage did somewhat take away that as a choice for me but by that point I was sick of it and ready to change.

 

Some people suggested I pick one name and hyphenate it with my husband's name. That would have been weird, like picking one parent's name. Others suggested both dh and I choose a third name unrelated to either family. We could have done that but it would have been a HUGE issue in dh's Chinese-American family. Dh is the only son who had kids and it was enormous thing to his Dad that our son was the first grandson with the family name. Plus we didn't really want to just randomly pick a name. The other suggestion was that we use his name and replace it with one of the syllables in my name. That would have worked since his name is similar in sound to the last syllable in my maiden name. So if I was Smith-Johnson and he was Sun we would have become Smith-Johnsun. In the end I didn't really want to do any of that and was just happy to have the short name. 

 

I do think though that it's good to have the choice of what to do and it should be the primarily the choice of the person changing the name. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Alice

[Reefgazer]

The state forced you to change your name? I didn't think they had the power to do that.

 

I have to say, though, that my different name never was even remotely an issue. Butthen again, I was assuming you are my age, but maybe you're a bit older and that was the custom at that time. But it might be a regional thing, as well. I grew into adulthood in the northeast.

I kept my name much longer than that. But I'm a pragmatist, and finally decided it would be easier if we all had the same last name, so I didn't have to constantly explain that no, I wasn't remarried to someone other than their father, and yes, we actually were married.

 

Not to mention the stupid state forced me to change my name well into my 40's. It said my name was suddenly too long to fit into Social Security boxes, so I had to change it. That was insane. What do people with ethnic super-long names do? No answer. Mine wasn't that long.

 

At any rate, we all have the same last name now, and I'm not even slightly diminished by that. I still write out the full name I have always used, but officially it has changed.

[TranquilMind]

The state forced you to change your name? I didn't think they had the power to do that.

 

I have to say, though, that my different name never was even remotely an issue. Butthen again, I was assuming you are my age, but maybe you're a bit older and that was the custom at that time. But it might be a regional thing, as well. I grew into adulthood in the northeast.

 

Well, I didn't have to do it, if I didn't mind my driver's license being invalidated. 

I did mind.  I HAD to match driver's license to SSN information and the name was too long for the SSN boxes so the state forced me to change it if I wanted to keep my license. 

[Reefgazer]

In this era of divorce, name changes or no name changes, and all sorts of hyphenations and newly created names, do businesses even aks about familial relationships anymore? It seems as if you have th proper signatures on the guardian lines of doctor forms and what not and you promise to pay, medical professionals and schools don't care. I have *never* had a medical or school professional ask about my relationship to my kids.

 

k about

 

It is a non-issue for me, but I will tell you that it is a pain to be constantly explaining to the dentist, school, doctor, swimming coach, hockey registration, landlord, etc. that you are married to the child's father, you just didn't change your name (and they look at you at that point, so you say "because he has this twin sister" yadayadayada.)

 

I don't wish I'd changed mine, as I like my name more than I dislike the annoyance of explaining, but I do wish that maybe no one changed their names? That would be great. I'd like to fit in.

[poppy]

I've been married since 2001, and did not change my name. I have been asked ONE TIME to clarify if my husband and I are married.    It was for a gym membership. 

 

That was a sales lady. I've never been asked by a medical professional or anything related to school, about my own name or my kids names.

Edited February 10, 2017 by poppy

[LucyStoner]

We had a bank teller that didn't want to deposit wedding checks made out to "Lucy Stone" and "Henry Blackwell" because the names on the account had just been changed to "Henry and Lucy Stone Blackwell". Only imagine Stone and Blackwell are names uncommon enough that you've probably never met anyone else named either other them, much less both. She called over her manager when we complained and the manager was irked the teller was being so dense and deposited them.

 

We've never had to clarify that we were related to our kids or whatever. The only people who care are people who just inquire and are flummoxed that the kids have my maiden name. Mostly this comes up when people assume that my FOO is my husband's FOO because we use that name. And we clarify that no, that's my family and that his lives far away.

[Supertechmom]

Repeating a previous poster as to how do the names work if the tradition is to take mother and fathers last name and you marry someone of the same tradition. Are you now Jane Smith-johnson-black hadley???? How does that work in a couple of generations or are there name picking rules too?

 

And I just want to say to all of you who have had people ask about why your name is not the same as your husband or kids....

 

That is RUDE AS HELL.  Point blank. Nobody's business as to why your name is not the same.  And i would be tempted to come up with an incredible story that would make them regret asking.  Like one that takes ten minutes to tell the details and ends up with me sniffling or being teary eye and sad by the end..... That's just so incredibly rude especially in a day and time when the divorce rate is so high and the single parent rate is so high and Why does anyone need to know????  Outside of a medical professional making sure of the relationship in cases where one must know who needs to make the medical decisions in absence of paperwork......why does anyone feel the need to ask????  The answer stands a good chance of making that person feel sad or relive negative feelings/situations so why ask?  Why not just be polite and think none of my business to ask a random stranger why her name is different?

 

Just RUDE!

[chiguirre]

Repeating a previous poster as to how do the names work if the tradition is to take mother and fathers last name and you marry someone of the same tradition. Are you now Jane Smith-johnson-black hadley???? How does that work in a couple of generations or are there name picking rules too?

 

 

 

If Juan Valdez Garcia marries Ana Martinez Fernandez, their kids are Valdez Martinez. Ana is now Martinez de Valdez.

[Greta]

I hope my girls keep their names but of course it is a personal decision. Ultimately they are all just some guy's name anyway. If not my husband's, then my father's. Sigh.

 

I feel very drawn to my great-grandmother's family name (Corson) although, obviously, that came from a guy named Cor......

That was my initial thinking as well: basically, why bother since it's a man's name either way. Both of my great-grandmothers had nice-sounding names - French on one side, Irish on the other. Either one would have made for a pleasant sounding but unusual combination with my German first name. Should have picked one of those! :)

[Reefgazer]

I really don't get all twisted up about people asking this; but then again, nosy questions are not that big a deal to me if they're asked with a genuine sense of curiosity and not as a lead-in to an argument.  If anyone had asked, I would have just told them that DH and I have different fathers.

Repeating a previous poster as to how do the names work if the tradition is to take mother and fathers last name and you marry someone of the same tradition. Are you now Jane Smith-johnson-black hadley???? How does that work in a couple of generations or are there name picking rules too?

 

And I just want to say to all of you who have had people ask about why your name is not the same as your husband or kids....

 

That is RUDE AS HELL.  Point blank. Nobody's business as to why your name is not the same.  And i would be tempted to come up with an incredible story that would make them regret asking.  Like one that takes ten minutes to tell the details and ends up with me sniffling or being teary eye and sad by the end..... That's just so incredibly rude especially in a day and time when the divorce rate is so high and the single parent rate is so high and Why does anyone need to know????  Outside of a medical professional making sure of the relationship in cases where one must know who needs to make the medical decisions in absence of paperwork......why does anyone feel the need to ask????  The answer stands a good chance of making that person feel sad or relive negative feelings/situations so why ask?  Why not just be polite and think none of my business to ask a random stranger why her name is different?

 

Just RUDE!

 

[idnib]

I remember reading the paper when I was a kid and there was a letter to Dear Abby from a woman whose last name was "Hore" and she had been waiting her whole life to get married and change her name, and she was in love with a man whose last name was "Hooker".

 

 

[LucyStoner]

I remember reading the paper when I was a kid and there was a letter to Dear Abby from a woman whose last name was "Hore" and she had been waiting her whole life to get married and change her name, and she was in love with a man whose last name was "Hooker".

Sounds rather urban legend-y.

[idnib]

Sounds rather urban legend-y.

 

It might have been an urban legend which made it into print, but I definitely saw it rather than heard it. I took it to my parents who then had to explain the world's oldest profession.  :lol:

[LucyStoner]

It might have been an urban legend which made it into print, but I definitely saw it rather than heard it. I took it to my parents who then had to explain the world's oldest profession. :lol:

Oh, I don't doubt you read it. Some of her letters though definitely seemed to be the 70s and 80s version of trolling tho, lol.

[Laura Corin]

When it comes to official stuff I've found that every business/institution copes just fine with me having a different surname to my kids. The only thing I've had a problem with is the bank because some spots in their banking software and documents automatically shorten the visible information to my husband's surname and our initials because of the space available even though my full name is on the account. It's just a bit annoying. 

 

My brother and his partner had kids outside of marriage, so obviously the parents had different surnames.  The only people who used to get it wrong were at the school: she's was often (verbally) called Mrs (Brother's last name).  She was only mildly annoyed: they deal with a lot of people and it's hard for them to keep it all straight.  Any letters were properly addressed.

 

I changed my name because it was ugly and irritating to explain.  I have two brothers who each had children, so the ugly name did not die.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Laura Corin

[rebcoola]

I think people should do whatever they want I changed my last name partially because I had a cousin with almost the exact same name and found it annoying  (first name, same middle intial, last name).  But I can see why not to my MIL has been married 6 times and changed her name each time every time she fills out an official form she has to list all those names and it takes forever.

[Laura Corin]

If Juan Valdez Garcia marries Ana Martinez Fernandez, their kids are Valdez Martinez. Ana is now Martinez de Valdez.

 

You are helping me a lot.  We get a fair few applications to the university where I work from South America and the applicants put the different parts of their names into the available boxes (first, middle, last) in a variety of ways, so I often don't know how to deal with it.

 

So if I see Juan Valdez Garcia, the 'surname' is Valdez Garcia?  And for Ana, the 'surname' is Martinez de Valdez?

 

Thanks for helping.

 

ETA: very ignorant question, please forgive: how wide is this usage in South America including Brazil?  How about Spain and Portugal?  

Edited February 11, 2017 by Laura Corin

[vonfirmath]

You are helping me a lot.  We get a fair few applications to the university where I work from South America and the applicants put the different parts of their names into the available boxes (first, middle, last) in a variety of ways, so I often don't know how to deal with it.

 

So if I see Juan Valdez Garcia, the 'surname' is Valdez Garcia?  And for Ana, the 'surname' is Martinez de Valdez?

 

Thanks for helping.

 

ETA: very ignorant question, please forgive: how wide is this usage in South America including Brazil?  How about Spain and Portugal?  

 

I've seen it in Ecuador and Guatemala for sure.

Haiti does not use it.

 

Brazil does not appear to use it.

[Guest]

I kept my maiden name for no particular reason for a few months, but when DH enlisted I really felt compelled to make a final decision. Ultimately I didn't particularly care about being associated with my foo, but very much wanted (obviously) to be associated with DH. If I'd wanted to keep my father's name, it wouldn't have been a big deal, but it is mildly simpler in the military to have the same last name. I have to brandish DH's Soc. Sec. # all the time, and it's just easier to be Mrs. DH in those scenarios.

 

I have a close friend who has been married thrice through no fault of her own and it's been a mind-mess for her to change her name so many times.

[chiguirre]

You are helping me a lot.  We get a fair few applications to the university where I work from South America and the applicants put the different parts of their names into the available boxes (first, middle, last) in a variety of ways, so I often don't know how to deal with it.

 

So if I see Juan Valdez Garcia, the 'surname' is Valdez Garcia?  And for Ana, the 'surname' is Martinez de Valdez?

 

Thanks for helping.

 

ETA: very ignorant question, please forgive: how wide is this usage in South America including Brazil?  How about Spain and Portugal?  

 

Actually, in Spanish speaking LatAm they have boxes for both and usually use the first last name only unless it's too common (so Juan Valdez and Ana Martinez). If your student took American exams, heaven knows what they put for their last name because there is only one box to fill in and people get creative. Spain follows this naming convention too.

 

And, in further bad news, the Brazilians do it the other way around, mother first, father second. So Joao Garca Valdes. Women don't often change their name.

 

I'm sorry, it's a mess.

 

ETA: If you give people instructions, they'll follow them. So if you add a note saying please use your first last name only on application forms, people will comply. They will want their whole names on their diplomas and transcripts so they can register them in their home countries so you should say that the name shortening is just for the application process.

Edited February 13, 2017 by chiguirre

[Laura Corin]

Actually, in Spanish speaking LatAm they have boxes for both and usually use the first last name only unless it's too common (so Juan Valdez and Ana Martinez). If your student took American exams, heaven knows what they put for their last name because there is only one box to fill in and people get creative. Spain follows this naming convention too.

 

And, in further bad news, the Brazilians do it the other way around, mother first, father second. So Joao Garca Valdes. Women don't often change their name.

 

I'm sorry, it's a mess.

 

ETA: If you give people instructions, they'll follow them. So if you add a note saying please use your first last name only on application forms, people will comply. They will want their whole names on their diplomas and transcripts so they can register them in their home countries so you should say that the name shortening is just for the application process.

 

Thank you for this and the PM - that's really helpful. Unfortunately, I just receive the data - I can't design the application forms.  But now I know what to look for.