s/o Victim Blaming

[SKL]

This makes me crazy when I hear about this stuff.  And interestingly it seems that the majority of clothing issues that supposedly must be fixed revolve around what females are wearing.  Growing up the only one I can recall for boys was hats.  With girls there was a long list.

 

One that my brothers dealt with was facial hair.  My brother had a skin condition that made shaving problematic, so he and my mom went back and forth with the school.  Also hair length - a girl's hair could be any length; a boy had specific limits (and did get called out for pushing those limits).  I think these are still rules in many if not most schools.

 

I think we'd have fewer issues about girls' clothes if the manufacturers / retailers would provide reasonable options.  Exactly why do they think parents want their daughters' clothes to be so revealing?  And part of that goes back to what Hollywood is wearing, which goes back to trying to be look sexy.  Just being honest here.  I don't blame school administrators for wanting school to be free of wardrobe extremes which we all know are distracting to both girls and boys.

 

And then we go back to "girls should be allowed to run naked and not get raped."  Yes, girls should not get raped, but no, girls (or boys if that were the issue) don't need to be allowed to run naked.  No, I'm not blaming girls' fashions for rape - afaik nobody here has done that - but I don't understand why people keep insisting that girls need to be able to run naked in order to kill rape culture.  How about everyone should dress appropriately, AND separately, rape is inexcusable?

[marbel]

I can't help but be concerned about my son being falsely accused.  There seems to be a "he was a boy and she was unconscious, so it must have happened."

 

I am not talking about this particular incident.

But what if that girl had been left and one of my sons (or yours) found her and tried to help her but someone saw him with an unconscious, assaulted, naked girl?  I worry that the court of public opinion would be accusatory immediately.

 

I want my son to know that he should not bend down to help her or try to give her CPR, or do anything other than immediately get on his phone and call 911.

 

And honestly, that makes me sad that I even have to think about it.

 

I think that may be the wise course, to tell young men not to touch a female in that situation without witnesses - who are also not male.  Call 911 and stand watch.  Someone upthread, or maybe it was another thread, thread "keep your DNA out of her" but I would include "keep your DNA off of her.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

One that my brothers dealt with was facial hair.  My brother had a skin condition that made shaving problematic, so he and my mom went back and forth with the school.  Also hair length - a girl's hair could be any length; a boy had specific limits (and did get called out for pushing those limits).  I think these are still rules in many if not most schools.

 

Those aren't rules here.  There are no rules regarding facial hair or hair length for anyone.  But there is a long list of what girls cannot wear. 

[SKL]

I think that may be the wise course, to tell young men not to touch a female in that situation without witnesses - who are also not male.  Call 911 and stand watch.  Someone upthread, or maybe it was another thread, thread "keep your DNA out of her" but I would include "keep your DNA off of her.  

 

To me, this is a big problem with the pendulum swinging way too far.  Does society really want men to be unwilling to, say, perform CPR on a person who is not breathing?  How about performing the Heimlich on a woman who is choking? What about using some level of physical force to stop another guy from taking her to a private space when she seems "too drunk to consent"?  I could understand not wanting them to touch a person who is merely unconscious (other than to make sure they are breathing), but at some point we are preventing people from being part of the solution.  I sure hope this doesn't become a serious recommendation.

 

Well it's like that kid who was abducted after walking alone at night.  Another man had seen her and thought of checking in with her to make sure she was OK, maybe offer a ride, but he was afraid he'd be accused of something and it would ruin his and his family's life.  So he drove on by and next thing he heard, the girl was abducted and raped.  There has to be a middle ground.  It could start with the understanding that most people are not creeps.

[DawnM]

I think that may be the wise course, to tell young men not to touch a female in that situation without witnesses - who are also not male.  Call 911 and stand watch.  Someone upthread, or maybe it was another thread, thread "keep your DNA out of her" but I would include "keep your DNA off of her.  

 

 

And I know my middle son's first instinct would be to touch her, roll her over, make sure she is breathing, do first aid, try to help.  He has a heart of gold but can be naive.  He would never even think of hurting anyone.  It sickens me to think he would be accused of something.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh it has gotten rather ridiculous.  I was walking alone at night near the campus (100 years ago).  Way across the street several feet down there was a guy walking who I could barely see.  A cop drove up to me and asked me if he was bothering me.  I said..who...who is bothering me?  He said that guy down there.  I said oh no..not at all.  But what?!  I mean geesh, a guy can't take a walk 100 feet away from a woman without someone suspecting something?

 

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[EMS83]

I largely avoid the argument by ignoring all news media and 99% of social media (to me, message boards & blogs fall into this category and there are a few I peruse).  I find that it's not actually useful in any way for me to know what tragic awful thing happened to person X halfway across the country or world or what everyone else thinks about it and then what everyone else thinks about what everyone else thinks about the tragedy.  These sorts of topics really ought to be left alone by the media, news and social alike.  There isn't much useful anyone on the "outside" can say or do, and people on the "inside" have a pain that is very personal and dark and may or may not be complicated by shame, fear, or bitterness.  Few people or things can touch that place positively and the general public shouldn't be allowed access.  Discussing the perpetrator in any way on a mass scale simply brings them glory; they become a celebrity for their actions.

 

That said, I do advocate for wisdom and proactive attitudes without becoming driven by fear or falling into a false sense of security.  When considering personal safety, emotionally detached risk assessment is a useful tool for anyone.  Building skill in self-defense is a good measure, also.  Please don't choose karate.  

[Greta]

Why assume that feeling of shame is caused by external forces?  I too was molested as a child and I too felt irrational shame.  As you point out, rape victims have a natural tendency to feel shame.  I don't know why, but if you think about it, that is one of the reasons rapists rape - because it hurts so much emotionally, largely because of that natural tendency to feel shame.

 

So to your point, "these discussions ... don't protect us" - can you really protect a rape victim from those feelings, regardless of what has or has not been said about prevention?  I think not.  I think there is ample evidence that shame / self-blame is an extremely common response even among little kids who have never heard of rape or rape prevention.  I think the assumption that it's a learned reaction is faulty.  Can you make it worse by rubbing it in, sure, but that's not what anyone is advocating here.

 

 

 

I never made the assumption that it's a learned reaction.  As you pointed out in your first paragraph, I said that rape victims seem to have a natural tendency to feel self-blame.  My point is that we have to be very careful and thoughtful in these discussions, because it's so easy to heap more blame on innocent people who are already blaming themselves.  I'm also not saying that means we can't talk about it.  I'm just trying to say that context and word choice and tone matter.  It's an area where it is worth it to take the effort to tread lightly and discuss very carefully and thoughtfully.  I have failed to do that before, and unintentionally hurt some people right here on these boards.  My intentions were good, but my word choice was bad, and I deeply regret it.  I hope that I can do better in the future.  Of course I know that no one is *advocating* rubbing it in.  But sometimes we do that even when we don't mean to.  So I'm urging caution.

 

 

Think about it - many of the people talking about rape risk avoidance have been victims of rape or molestation.  Many of them have drunk alcohol in less-than-perfectly-safe situations.  Some have experienced both at the same time.  They are thinking, "I don't want others to have this happen to them."  Some might even be thinking, "I would prefer others learn from my mistakes than make the same mistakes and get hurt."

 

I absolutely would do my best to listen to and honor anyone who shared such a story like that with me, including honoring her desire to spare others from such a horrifying event.  Absolutely.  And I would also try to do everything in my power to reassure her that it wasn't her fault.

 

SKL, I am so profoundly sorry that you too have been assaulted.  Those of us who have never been through that can only imagine, and so we stumble through these conversations as best we can.  Sometimes we make mistakes.  I only want to minimize those mistakes.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I largely avoid the argument by ignoring all news media and 99% of social media (to me, message boards & blogs fall into this category and there are a few I peruse).  I find that it's not actually useful in any way for me to know what tragic awful thing happened to person X halfway across the country or world or what everyone else thinks about it and then what everyone else thinks about what everyone else thinks about the tragedy.  These sorts of topics really ought to be left alone by the media, news and social alike.  There isn't much useful anyone on the "outside" can say or do, and people on the "inside" have a pain that is very personal and dark and may or may not be complicated by shame, fear, or bitterness.  Few people or things can touch that place positively and the general public shouldn't be allowed access.  Discussing the perpetrator in any way on a mass scale simply brings them glory; they become a celebrity for their actions.

 

That said, I do advocate for wisdom and proactive attitudes without becoming driven by fear or falling into a false sense of security.  When considering personal safety, emotionally detached risk assessment is a useful tool for anyone.  Building skill in self-defense is a good measure, also.  Please don't choose karate.  

 

I get what you are saying, but they should not be ignored.  We need to know about these things.  I think awareness can help a lot.  How much do you want to bet that maybe other people on other college campuses are being more vigilant or at least talking about this since the latest incident?  Maybe some women got together before a party and said hey lets watch out for each other.  I did that with other women.  Is it 100% going to protect me?  Nope. But I can't imagine it putting me at a greater risk either.

 

What is problematic is we don't know what is true or not.  Stuff gets exaggerated, lied about, etc.  So we can't be 100% certain about all the details. 

 

 

[Greta]

Wait, I'm confused, has this actually been a thing - that someone was trying to give medical care to an unconscious woman and got falsely accused of rape?  That's happened?

[swimmermom3]

I never went to wild parties or got blackout drunk.  

 

I never got raped.  

 

I can see the temptation to think that those two facts are related.  But they are NOT.  They are a coincidence that could very easily make me feel good about myself, that I protected myself by making the “right†choices, IF it weren’t for the fact that the women I know who have been raped were not drunk, were not at a wild party, were not out alone late at night, were not in “bad†neighborhoods, were not dressed provocatively or leading him on, were not doing any of the the things that we get told not to do.  They were just girls and women who were living their lives, and had the misfortune of being in proximity to a rapist:  walking to school, playing with the kids in the neighborhood, going on a first date at the age of 16, accepting the offer of a ride from a coworker, answering the door when a friend of her boyfriend dropped by unexpectedly.  They did NOTHING that led to the rape.  They did NOTHING to put themselves “at risk†unless you count being female.

 

I understand the desire to protect ourselves and our daughters, because believe me, as the mom of a daughter myself, it scares the crap out of me, knowing how vulnerable she is.  Yes, I talk to her about ways she can try to protect herself.  I don’t know any parent who doesn’t.  But when those kinds of discussions are about rape, they need to be handled with a lot more delicacy and thoughtfulness than when they are about having stuff stolen from your car.  Because the stakes are so much higher.  There are few things in this world that I can imagine that would be worse than my daughter being raped.  But one of those things is, my daughter being raped AND having my careless, blaming words in her head, adding to the self-blame and guilt and shame that all rape victims seem to feel.  

 

Have we discussed the dangers of wild parties?  Sure!  Will we discuss it in the context of this particular case?  NO.  What’s up for discussion in this case is, why does our culture give athletes more of a pass when it comes to beating and raping women?  Why do judges give such light sentences to rapists, while giving harsh sentences for non-violent crimes?  Why have so many colleges been in denial about this very serious problem for so long?  THOSE are the questions this should bring up.  Not “why did she go to that party?†or “why did she get drunk?† That poor young woman was raped for one reason and one reason only:  because of a rapist.  Her behavior is not up for discussion, at least not in my household.

 

By the way, the girl I mentioned who got raped while playing with friends in the neighborhood was my mom.  She was five years old when it happened.  And she never told a soul, not even my father, until just a few years ago, because she felt so ashamed and blamed herself for being “so stupid.† Can you imagine?  She blamed HERSELF for the fact that a grown man lured an innocent little five year old girl away from her friends so that he could abuse her.  THAT is why these discussions of what the victim did or didn’t do to avoid the crime have to stop.  They don’t protect us.  Yet they do shift the blame to the victim.

 

Thank you. :grouphug:

 

 

[hornblower]

 

I want my son to know that he should not bend down to help her or try to give her CPR, or do anything other than immediately get on his phone and call 911.

 

And honestly, that makes me sad that I even have to think about it.

 

I do not worry about this. My son has taken first aid. I would expect him to use his training, which of course means calling 911 or getting someone to or going to get help first. But I would expect him to render all assistance he can, while also trying to preserve any forensic evidence.  But if the victim requires CPR, I hope he'd have the presence of mind to administer it. 

[marbel]

To me, this is a big problem with the pendulum swinging way too far.  Does society really want men to be unwilling to, say, perform CPR on a person who is not breathing?  How about performing the Heimlich on a woman who is choking? What about using some level of physical force to stop another guy from taking her to a private space when she seems "too drunk to consent"?  I could understand not wanting them to touch a person who is merely unconscious (other than to make sure they are breathing), but at some point we are preventing people from being part of the solution.  I sure hope this doesn't become a serious recommendation.

 

Well it's like that kid who was abducted after walking alone at night.  Another man had seen her and thought of checking in with her to make sure she was OK, maybe offer a ride, but he was afraid he'd be accused of something and it would ruin his and his family's life.  So he drove on by and next thing he heard, the girl was abducted and raped.  There has to be a middle ground.  It could start with the understanding that most people are not creeps.

 

No, I'm sure no one wants that.  And I'm not even sure I would teach my kid to refrain from helping someone.  That was my gut reaction but I'm really still thinking about it.  It is scary to imagine a false accusation.  I don't know how much it happens if at all, but it's not hard to see how it could, when it seems every man is a potential rapist in some folks' eyes.  I just don't know.  My kid has had a good bit of first-responder type training (he's not an EMS or anything like that, but through Boy Scouts and volunteer firefighter training) so it would be hard for him not to see if he could help someone.  I would want him to.  But it does give me pause at times because of how it might look to someone else who was to come by. 

 

I think perhaps the best thing to do would be to call 911 and keep them on the line, talk though what he's doing as he waits for other help.   For all I know, first responders are trained to do that anyway. 

 

[SKL]

I agree, call 911 and keep them on speaker while rendering assistance sounds best.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Although helping strangers is problematic for women as well.  I once was approached by a very large guy in a park who said he needed help.  He fell off his bike.  He seemed a bit shaken up, but he was walking so it didn't appear to be dire.  I was a little nervous.  My dad just so happened to be at the park so I asked him to call for help.  I didn't have a phone on me.  Had I been alone, i would have probably walked away from the guy and called as soon as I could.  What exactly was I going to do to help him?  I felt bad, but I just wasn't sure about the situation.

 

 

[Paige]

happi duck here being paranoid duck for a moment...

I just wanted to be sure that you know that I was already agreeing with you and that is why I wrote what I did.  I can't tell if you quoted me because you saw me agreeing or if you were quoting me because you thought I was not agreeing.  So for the record...I was agreeing with you!

 

I'm having a panicky day and just needed to be sure...carry 

 

 

I quoted because you said it better than I did!  :thumbup1:

[happi duck]

I quoted because you said it better than I did! :thumbup1:

Whew!

[LMD]

Wait, I'm confused, has this actually been a thing - that someone was trying to give medical care to an unconscious woman and got falsely accused of rape? That's happened?

No, it doesn't happen.

But yet again these hyperbolic hypothetical scenarios are trotted out. Yet those of us who continue to point out victim blaming and try to explain why it can hurt are accused of using 'extreme' examples...

 

It has been pointed out again and again, on both threads, how and why focusing on the victim's supposed unwise actions is damaging and unhelpful.

[LMD]

There's a case happening here at the moment, where 3 brothers in their 20s abducted and gang raped a 14 year old girl. Do you know what the defense attorney is focused on? Whether she was wearing makeup.

[Joules]

 

 

I think perhaps the best thing to do would be to call 911 and keep them on the line, talk though what he's doing as he waits for other help.   For all I know, first responders are trained to do that anyway. 

 

 

We were always told to stay on the phone.  Not because of false accusations, but because every little piece of information can help the EMTs and hospital be better prepared.  The 911 operator can relay information.  In attack circumstances, the perpetrator may return and the operator needs to know what's going on to inform police. 

 

I think it's a good idea to tell kids to call 911 even if they just suspect something, before they walk over to investigate, just in case they may be in danger too.  The person laying on the grass may not be drunk, but may have been shot.  If it's nothing, the operators are fine with a "never mind" as long as there is an explanation.

 

Calling 911 first is also important because it is easy to get caught up giving aid and delay the call.  There's a chance you can't be much help, so that ambulance needs to be on the way while you are trying.  All you have to do is dial three digits, put on the speaker and toss the phone on the ground next to you.

[Ausmumof3]

Oh it has gotten rather ridiculous. I was walking alone at night near the campus (100 years ago). Way across the street several feet down there was a guy walking who I could barely see. A cop drove up to me and asked me if he was bothering me. I said..who...who is bothering me? He said that guy down there. I said oh no..not at all. But what?! I mean geesh, a guy can't take a walk 100 feet away from a woman without someone suspecting something?

Not to justify too much but it's possible that he had a known history but not enough for a conviction.

[Janeway]

The problem is we've been forcing women to do the majority of the changing and prevention. All of those things we teach our kids (and you should teach your kids!!) about how to stay safe isn't helping. Look at the rape stats. Looking outward is what will change things. Identifying rape culture and calling it out will bring attention to behavior that has been normalized that really shouldn't be. 

 

School dress codes come to mind. They are getting more and more strict to prevent boys from being tempted to sexually harass or rape. Really? It's up to the girls to dress a certain way. Male swimmers shouldn't wear speedos because it's too revealing said no one ever. But girls can't wear a tank top. 

 

If 99% of rapists are male, then there should be more classes for men about rape prevention than for women; especially for fraternities and athletes. 

 

Blaming girls for sexting their boyfriends who then share it with everyone. It's easy to say the girl shouldn't have taken the pictures, but how about teaching the boys about respecting girls privacy and discretion. 

 

It's every teen movie where the persistent boy wins the girl over by convincing her she actually really likes him. 

 

 

Men are much more likely to confess to sexually assaulting someone when you don't use the R word. Lots of Men Don't Think Rape is Rape Why is that? Because their definition of rape is the same famous myth of a stranger with a knife or gun jumping out of the bushes. It's not the boyfriend who pressures his girlfriend into sex. All guys do that right? It's not the intoxicated girl that you put your hand down her pants. Almost a third of the men (31.7 percent) said that in a consequence-free situation, they’d force a woman to have sexual intercourse, while 13.6 percent said they would rape a woman. The researchers think that “men who endorse using force to obtain intercourse on survey items but deny rape on the same may not experience hostile affect in response to women, but might have dispositions more in line with benevolent sexism.â€

They do not put in dress codes to rid of temptation from boys. They put dress codes because kids (and their parents) seem to forget this is a school, not a beach. And there is a reasonable standard for how people should dress at school. When I was in school, growing up, kids could not even wear shorts to school. 

[Joker]

They do not put in dress codes to rid of temptation from boys. They put dress codes because kids (and their parents) seem to forget this is a school, not a beach. And there is a reasonable standard for how people should dress at school. When I was in school, growing up, kids could not even wear shorts to school.

Well, we were allowed to wear shorts. And tank tops, and cheerleader uniforms, and etc... Yet, somehow we all also received an education. The only distraction due to clothing was always because an administrator decided something was inappropriate. Students didn't care.

 

I'm so glad that my dds' high school doesn't focus on dress code. Girls can wear leggings. Boys can have long hair and facial hair. Both genders can dye their hair. The emphasis is on education and there's no ridiculous loss, or disruption, of class time due to clothing. The kids just all look comfortable being whoever they are.

 

FTR, neither of my dds own leggings or dye their hair but they are very comfortable at this school surrounded by people who choose differently. It doesn't change the education they are receiving.

[purplejackmama]

My school district claims the uniforms are to help battle inequality. The name brands are apparently a huge classroom distraction. I've never heard them mention anything about reducing temptation for hormonal boys.

[SKL]

When I was in high school, the dress code rules were mainly to avoid slovenly or disrespectful appearance.  There were always some kids who would push the limits of the rules, and every so often the principal would get up in a huff and say, "well, once again, a few people have ruined it for everyone, and you can no longer do xyz."  In my school, skimpy clothes weren't popular, probably because we lived where it's winter for most of the school year, or maybe because parents were sensible enough to say "put some clothes on" before their kids left for school.  Kids were allowed to wear cheerleader uniforms etc., so it wasn't that the idea of skin horrified the administration; it was just a matter of there's a time and place for everything.

 

Anyhoo, talking about consideration for rape/assault victims, how do you think it feels to be a victim of rape/assault and have everyone try to change the conversation to school dress codes?  "Yeah, I'm sorry you were assaulted, and would you believe my high school didn't allow me to wear cutoff short shorts?  Your rapist must have had a really puritanical school principal."  I really don't think there's much of a connection between school dress codes and rape.  And also, blaming school dress codes for rape takes away blame from the rapist, not the victim.

[bettyandbob]

We can teach precaution.

 

We can also accept that people are human and sometimes don't take precautions they understand logically. Maybe they've always taken precautions and let their guard down this one time. Maybe they've a always had the optimistic belief that the places and situations they find themselves in are safe. For whatever reason most people do not take every precaution every time.

 

Honestly, if we all took every precaution every day it would be hard to live. Yes, we should teach how to take precautions. We should also not fault a victim for not taking precautions. We are all human and have fails in our decision making. Most of us do not pay a huge price for those fails and end up as victims. Most of us are lucky.

 

After the fact making an example of the victim, actually takes guilt away from predators. We should not do this. Predators need to be seen fully for what they are: rapists, thieves, ect. The victim was not legally required to take precautions, the predator broke the law. We need to put responsibility squarely on the predator.

[DawnM]

I grew up in SoCal. We all wore shorts and pretty much whatever. I don't remember anyone being sent home for something they wore. In fact, a few kids were at the beach surfing before school. 

 

 

Could you show up in a bikini?

I worked as a school counselor in SoCal for 17 years in a high school.  We absolutely had a dress code.  Girls were not allowed to show mid-drift.  Girls had to have sleeves.  The girls always wore those shirts that just came to the edge of their waist on their pants, they were constantly pulled it down when they saw a teacher, but since the rule was that it had to touch, they got away with it, and would show their mid-drift when they could.

 

Boys had to have clothing that would stay on if the belt came off.  (I worked in a very inner city school and our boys had low rider pants long before it hit the rest of the country.)  

[poppy]

Since someone brought up dress codes - have you never heard people complaining about boys leaving their pants down showing their underwear?  How come that isn't slut shaming?

 

If boys' fashions were as revealing as girls' fashions, there would be similar comments about them.  Why are boys' clothes so much less skimpy than girls' clothes?  I am trying to buy shorts for my 9yo and it's a real challenge to find something that doesn't look like Daisy Duke.  But I suppose not wanting my kid's butt cheeks to show every time she bends over is slut shaming.

 

Are you genuinely asking why people complaining about boys underwear showing is slut shaming?

Or do you just think it's not fair that something happens to girls but not boys (slut shaming)?

 

Serious question. Fairness seems very important to you. I believe you were the poster who says it's not "fair" that girls can get drunk and not blamed for being raped but boys can get drunk, rape someone, and get blamed for that.

Edited June 12, 2016 by poppy

[Ravin]

Okay, here is my incident for your analysis: Disabled pregnant young woman in hospital after vomiting for several hours, they say that an internal swab is required to confirm I am pregnant [when I have my antenatal notes with me and am clearly showing at 16 weeks and they've already taken bloods I did not consent to when they put in the IV]. I firmly asked why. I was then held down by two medical professionals while a third violently sexually assaulted me with large cylinder object and left me in what was later described to me as a concerningly large pool of blood. The three women laughed as they walked out of the room discussing how I had been taught a lesson.

 

How would you analyze that, how would any form of analysis stop that from happening, what lesson could other people learn other than never to be vulnerable, never be sick, never ask questions, never be alone with anyone? Cause, seriously, everyone is vulnerable sometimes and a lot of what I hear in terms of 'analyzing risks' comes down to 'it's okay as long as it isn't you, let some other more vulnerable person deal with society's view on acceptable power and force, just make sure it's someone else that is attacked'. I waited years to tell anyone because all I had ever heard about being sexually assaulted is that I should have been able to know and defend myself when all I did after being held down was cry, I blamed myself and was silent for years because all I've seen is people excusing professionals and carers when they hurt disabled people. I refused to file a complaint because, as a child abuse survivor, I previously seen how complaining led to backlashes against me, how quick people are to retaliate and blame victims to build up and protect our abusers, the words 'don't tell anyone about this' from my childhood still ring in my ears.

 

Seriously, and people wonder why I fear leaving the house sometimes. Both my partner and I have conditions that cause us to become unconscious and even though it hasn't happened for years, I still wonder if it did happen and I was attacked, would I be blamed because I was incapacitated in public. When my limbs randomly go numb, I wonder if I would be blamed because I wouldn't be able to defend myself and I wouldn't be able to fight back. I worry for the other young disabled people like I was who are put through compliance behaviour training who do regularly get the blame when they are assaulted because they've been taught it is bad it is to question and fight back. I wonder why lists like these that are so commonly found in these discussions focuses on strangers in the night and the lack of discussion on relationship, peer, and professional abuse that are far more likely to happen -- and how much of the rhetoric around stranger rapes directly, negatively harms everyone.

 

 

The most vulnerable people in our society should not have to shoulder the burden and shame of not only being attacked, but also being blamed and used as teaching lessons. And being empathic, sympathic, compassionate, careful with our words and considering their potential impact before speaking or writing is never a sign of a lack of intellect. Painful words can hurt and hinder for a lifetime. Survivors [and sex workers since you mentioned them] are humans who do not deserve to be treated as lesson tools, and it is quite possible to teach safety without dragging others through wringer to prove a point. No lesson should come at someone else's humanity and playing armchair quarterback and analyzing where victims went wrong to somehow lower the odds a bit really mainly continues the social message that being vulnerable is to be wrong and deserving of pain or consequence -- and everyone is vulnerable no matter what actions we take. Some just are more than others.

This bears repeating.

 

As for victim blaming, it is a defense mechanism. People hear about how one person wronged another, or how something happened to them due to other forces beyond the victim's control, and they fear the same thing happening to themselves. To answer that fear, they tell themselves stories about why it happened that emphasize factors under the individual's control because they can then comfort themselves and control their fear by modifying their own actions. It's a very basic and primitive form of social learning.

 

Another defense mechanism is to emphasize the stories where a stranger was the wrongdoer. This serves at least two purposes. First, it makes it easier to de-humanize and alienate the perpetrator. By doing this, one can distance what happened from one's own social world. By making the perpetrator out to be a stranger/sociopath/monster etc., you can tell yourself that "no one I know or interact with would do such a thing" and thereby avoid fear of people you know and must interact with all the time.

 

Second, dehumanizing the perpetrator makes it easier to emphasize the actions of the victim as the controllable factors in the narrative, and bring the story back around to emphasizing those factors for the reasons discussed above

Edited June 12, 2016 by Ravin

[SKL]

Are you genuinely asking why people complaining about boys underwear showing is slut shaming?

Or do you just think it's not fair that something happens to girls but not boys (slut shaming)?

 

Serious question. Fairness seems very important to you. I believe you were the poster who says it's not "fair" that girls can get drunk and not blamed for being raped but boys can get drunk, rape someone, and get blamed for that.

 

Nope, I did not say that.  I said many posters were holding men and women to a different standard.  Drunk man, drunk woman.  Both agree to have sex.  The woman is a victim, the man is a rapist.  Because a drunk woman can't consent, but a drunk man can not only consent but can tell exactly how impaired his partner is.  It's a crime to be the man in a mutual sexual encounter if the woman doesn't remember it the next day.  I have a problem with that.

 

You also misread the post you quoted about the boys' low-rider pants.  Most people have no problem complaining about that.  How is that different from complaining about low necklines or shorts that are cut smaller than regular underwear?  The only difference is the gender of the wearer.  Apparently people think guys can take it but women can't.

 

But see, the girl dress comments support the theory that rape culture is ingrained throughout our society.  The boys' pants comments are OK because boys are ... I don't know, what are boys that girls aren't?

 

Yeah, I like the idea of fairness, and I hate the way our society keeps trying to infantillize our girls for their emotional protection.  Women used to be strong.  I hope we don't do too much damage to this and future generations by wussifying our girls.  [ETA I am specifically responding to the implication that school dress codes somehow harm girls' self-esteem.  I think girls can survive school dress codes just like they always have.]

Edited June 13, 2016 by SKL

[Bluegoat]

Help me understand a bit. 

 

I've run into the "You're victim blaming" thing at least twice on these boards, once when I was suggesting various things to teach our kids/friends/women to avoid abusive relationships and then today when various folks were talking about what things we teach our kids to do to minimize their risks in dealign with police officers. And I've certainly seen it plenty of other places, too. 

 

I totally agree with the importance of not blaming victims for their attacker's actions. 

 

However, where do we distinguish between advocating prudent actions to minimize your risks of being harmed by "bad people" vs. blaming victims?

 

For instance . . .

 

Say I never lock my car doors, and I leave my purse on the seat while I run into various places for errands. Eventually, someone steals my purse while I'm at the playground with my kid. I report this crime. Someone (friend, cop, whoever) is likely to tell me, "Uh, lady, you really shouldn't leave your purse in an unlocked car. That's asking for trouble."

 

Is that victim blaming? To me, no, it's not. It's simply reminding a person that they exposed themselves to unnecessary risk. Likewise, me teaching my kids not to leave valuables in plain view in any vehicle (let alone an unlocked vehicle) isn't victim blaming. It's educating them about "bad people" and how to minimize your risks from said bad people. 

 

Another instance . . .

 

Say you plan a visit to a middle eastern country where women are legally and morally required and expected to be covered. Say this place has a known history of sexual violence against women, and that women who don't properly cover themselves are frequently targeted. Is it victim blaming to advise your family members/friends/etc who are traveling there of this elevated risk and the imperative nature of staying covered and/or staying guarded? To me, no, that's simple common sense.

 

It in *no way* excuses the criminals, but it is just prudent to avoid exposing yourself to risk. 

 

. . .

 

 

To me, it crosses from proactive self/others-protection to victim blaming only when you use the "advice" to shift blame away from the attacker, or certainly if used to "beat someone when they are down" if you are directly addressing someone who is already a victim. To tell a rape victim, "You shouldn't have been drinking alone at that party!" is cruel even if it is true. So, the cruelty is wrong. Or, to say, "The rapist isn't really at fault here because she was asking for it the way she dressed." is obviously victim blaming to me. Or to say, "Well, we won't charge the thief with stealing your purse since you left it in plain view." is victim blaming and wrong. To tell the woman whose purse was stolen, "Whoa, you do that all the time? That's really stupid. If you don't want your purse stolen, perhaps you should lock your doors, because otherwise, this is just gonna' keep happening until you relocate to Fantasy Land." -- that, to me, is not victim blaming or cruel, because having your purse stolen isn't (generally) a traumatic event and so as long as the victim isn't traumatized, then telling her like it is just maybe helps her get a clue and take fewer risks next time.

 

To me, the world is full of scary risks. Bears, dogs, rapists, lightning, floods, etc . . . I think learning about and discussing prudent self-protection prevention measures for all these risks is a reasonable thing to discuss and to teach our kids. 

 

Anyway, I have zero sympathy for the criminals in any of these examples or in the cases in the news, etc. I think they should all go to jail and be punished. I'm just wondering how we can even talk about these issues without this PC "victim blaming" card preventing us from even discussing prudent self-protection measures. 

 

I think victim blaming has been extended to apply to a much wider scope of things than it properly belongs to.  People who leave their doors unlocked caused the thievery they suffered" is different than any number of other statements "locking your doors can reduce opportunistic crime" "how does locking our doors affect our consciousness of the local community" or some other set of thoughts about it. For some reason, no one seems to make a fuss of "we will not pay out your insurance claim since your home was left insecure" though I think that is actually somewhat objectionable and can have a very negative social effect.

 

And most of the time when it is used that way, it is to shut down any discussion or criticism of a particular ideology or interpretation of the facts around whatever the topic happens to be.  I think that's its often not done all that self-consciously, but it's essentially a way of controlling the discussion.

 

I also agree with those who said there is a huge difference between discussing a situation in what might be called a pastoral type of setting - where you are helping or talking to people who are in fact affected by the incident being discussed, and a wider public discussion of the topic.

[Janeway]

I agree that nothing should ever be said to a victim about what they could have or should have done. Totally inappropriate.

 

However, I am a bit confused at those who insist we acknowledge that we have a rape culture but refuse to allow discussion on how we can protect ourselves while living in that rape culture.  Yes, I know we need to teach boys and men not to rape women. But I have no control over what boys outside of my own home are taught, so I will take measures to protect myself, with the understanding that bad things sometimes happen (and men still find ways to rape), no matter what we do.

I am not sure we have a rape culture so much as we call so much more rape. It might be interesting to have some statistics, if anyone ever did the research, in to how many rape reports today would not have been considered rape a few years ago. I think we definitely have a victim culture today. Yes, I acknowledge that some people are raped. But I also think today, we have a big victim mentality. Everyone is a victim, no one is responsible. This is not just referencing rape. This is referencing everything right down to a lecture at a college where students claim they were victimized because it made them feel bad. 

[Guest]

Nevermind. I regret posting. I was all hopped up on righteous indignation. As I tell my kids, it's OK to let people be wrong.

 

PP, I seriously hope you'd reconsider saying things like that. It's really gross and harmful.

Edited June 13, 2016 by OKBud

[swimmermom3]

 

Yeah, I like the idea of fairness, and I hate the way our society keeps trying to infantillize our girls for their emotional protection.  Women used to be strong.  I hope we don't do too much damage to this and future generations by wussifying our girls.

 

I have been on this board for over 7 years. In that time, I've learned so much from those of similar beliefs, but also those "friends" who have opposing beliefs, but have graciously and patiently shared so much with me.

 

Never in all of that time have I come so close to actually wanting to earn myself a lifetime ban from this board.

 

So instead, in the name of my precious-to-me 23 yo dd who has experienced devastating loses and is still here to work it through, SKL, I am sending thoughts of grace, compassion, and understanding your way.

 

NEVER EVER confuse gracelessness and ignorance with strength.

 

Wussification?  Right.

[Rosie_0801]

I am not sure we have a rape culture so much as we call so much more rape. It might be interesting to have some statistics, if anyone ever did the research, in to how many rape reports today would not have been considered rape a few years ago. I think we definitely have a victim culture today. Yes, I acknowledge that some people are raped. But I also think today, we have a big victim mentality. Everyone is a victim, no one is responsible. This is not just referencing rape. This is referencing everything right down to a lecture at a college where students claim they were victimized because it made them feel bad. 

 

What a nauseating post.

[Soror]

The mind boggles.

 

It is not weak to acknowledge and point out when we've been wronged, abused, and used.

 

Personally I am raising a far stronger generation of women. A generation that is not afraid to stand up for their rights because it might offend someone. Women not afraid to say my body is my own and I can do what I please with it and it has nothing to do with anyone else. Women that say F You if you think that your life is some how more important than mine. 

 

So many of us have stories of abuse we were too afraid to tell because even from a young age we were taught on one level or another that it was our fault and our worth was tied to our "purity." It is not weakness to claim power, we are just now stepping out from weakness and into the light. 

 

If people think that makes me or my girls wusses I say bring it on, I'm not afraid to stand up for my rights and dignity, this battle is far from over.

 

*And I'm also tired of the fact that women with strong opinions are labeled b*tches but men with strong opinion are lauded for their convictions

Edited June 13, 2016 by soror

[Corraleno]

Yeah, I like the idea of fairness, and I hate the way our society keeps trying to infantillize our girls for their emotional protection.  Women used to be strong.  I hope we don't do too much damage to this and future generations by wussifying our girls.

 

Oh for the good old days, when women were strong enough to let their husbands beat the shit out of them without claiming "domestic abuse"... 

 

When girls who were raped by dates or acquaintances or even their husbands would just suck it up and deal instead of whining about it... 

 

When girls who were sexually abused just swallowed the shame and guilt instead of complaining... 

 

When girls who dared to drink knew they deserved what they got, instead of pretending their slutty behavior counted as "rape" and trying to file charges against the poor boys who were just taking advantage of the "opportunities" presented to them.

 

I feel so bad for these poor girls today! If we teach them that they own their own bodies and have the right to stick up for themselves, how will they learn to be strong? 

[SKL]

I am confident no one has ever said that they want to rape a guy because he's wearing pants that sag and show his underwear. Nor has he ever been accused of asking for it because of what he wore. The court system has placed that firmly in the girls corner. 

 

I dunno, I read that the origin of that style was in prison where the inmate used it to indicate a willingness to be the passive participant in anal sex.  (No I don't have a cite.)  [ETA Snopes says this isn't true - it started in prison but isn't about sex.]

 

Males hardly ever report being raped, because there is a lot more shame for a male who is raped than even for a female who is raped.  So there is a lot we don't know about what males are up against in that context.

Edited June 13, 2016 by SKL

[SKL]

Oh for the good old days, when women were strong enough to let their husbands beat the shit out of them without claiming "domestic abuse"... 

 

When girls who were raped by dates or acquaintances or even their husbands would just suck it up and deal instead of whining about it... 

 

When girls who were sexually abused just swallowed the shame and guilt instead of complaining... 

 

When girls who dared to drink knew they deserved what they got, instead of pretending their slutty behavior counted as "rape" and trying to file charges against the poor boys who were just taking advantage of the "opportunities" presented to them.

 

I feel so bad for these poor girls today! If we teach them that they own their own bodies and have the right to stick up for themselves, how will they learn to be strong? 

 

I should clarify that the post you quoted was in reference to the comments on dress code, i.e., that school dress codes somehow harm girls' self-esteem and make them victims.  I think girls can survive school dress codes just like they always have.  I wasn't talking about not reporting rape or abuse.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am not sure we have a rape culture so much as we call so much more rape. It might be interesting to have some statistics, if anyone ever did the research, in to how many rape reports today would not have been considered rape a few years ago. I think we definitely have a victim culture today. Yes, I acknowledge that some people are raped. But I also think today, we have a big victim mentality. Everyone is a victim, no one is responsible. This is not just referencing rape. This is referencing everything right down to a lecture at a college where students claim they were victimized because it made them feel bad. 

 

Wow.

[Paige]

I am not sure we have a rape culture so much as we call so much more rape. 

 

We call a lot more things rape today- that's for sure! But I would say that it only means that we are now aware of/talking about/ and concerned about rape culture and we weren't in the past. It's a good thing that more things are being acknowledged as rape. 

 

My daughters will have more power and protection because rape culture and privilege are being discussed. I had more power and protection than my mother because more things were defined as rape/assault. We are moving in the right direction. Sucking it up and keeping your mouth shut like a good little girl is victim making. Having a voice to say this is wrong and won't be tolerated silently anymore is empowering.

[LMD]

I am so confused. What do we call rape that isn't rape?

I hope it's not the false/regret report thing again - I'm pretty sure we've covered that...

[swimmermom3]

I am so confused. What do we call rape that isn't rape?

I hope it's not the false/regret report thing again - I'm pretty sure we've covered that...

 

Come on LMD, get with the program.  Rape only happens to virtuous, sober women who are attacked by complete strangers. If a woman was drinking any amount, well then, all bets are off.  She's just a  depression and anxiety drug-taking slut who is part of the hook-up culture and who can really know what happened except that you can be sure that she and thousands (according to members of this board) of her sisters in slutdom are trying to blame their wantoness on those poor, innocent, far more valuable members of society. You know, the dudes who were the paragons of virtue and that we are all terrified will get blamed, because rape is a one party crime. It's her fault.

[LMD]

Come on LMD, get with the program. Rape only happens to virtuous, sober women who are attacked by complete strangers. If a woman was drinking any amount, well then, all bets are off. She's just a depression and anxiety drug-taking slut who is part of the hook-up culture and who can really know what happened except that you can be sure that she and thousands (according to members of this board) of her sisters in slutdom are trying to blame their wantoness on those poor, innocent, far more valuable members of society. You know, the dudes who were the paragons of virtue and that we are all terrified will get blamed, because rape is a one party crime. It's her fault.

Point taken. My fault for not asking my husband's permission before opening my mouth...

[Joules]

I am not sure we have a rape culture so much as we call so much more rape. It might be interesting to have some statistics, if anyone ever did the research, in to how many rape reports today would not have been considered rape a few years ago. I think we definitely have a victim culture today. Yes, I acknowledge that some people are raped. But I also think today, we have a big victim mentality. Everyone is a victim, no one is responsible. This is not just referencing rape. This is referencing everything right down to a lecture at a college where students claim they were victimized because it made them feel bad. 

 

 

I've read this lots of times in disbelief, but after my eyes blurred I can see some nuggets of truth:

 

"I am not sure we have a rape culture so much as we call so much more rape. It might be interesting to have some statistics, if anyone ever did the research, in to how many rape reports today would not have been considered rape a few years ago."

 

Yes, we call more things rape.  We've gotten better at calling a spade a spade.  I honestly doubt we have more rapes now than when I was, and I don't think the rape culture is worse.  It's always been there we are just pointing it out now.  

<<Personal details removed.  I hope they helped some understand. >>

 

 

"But I also think today, we have a big victim mentality. Everyone is a victim, no one is responsible."

 

Again, true.  I think Brock Turner is responsible, but he has been turned into a victim by some media, his friends and family, and the judge.  The affluenza teen was responsible, but he became just a victim of circumstances.  That guy that busted the car window was responsible, but it turns out he was just a victim of the temptation of the stuff on the seat.  

 

We've got a problem.  I just see it different from you.

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Joules

[LMD]

Thank you for having the courage to share your story, Joules. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

[Bluegoat]

The point was that there shouldn't be a dress code based on how the male students will react. I was pointing out that is part of rape culture. The boys can't control themselves, so the girls must change their behavior.

 

I don't know why people always frame it that way.  The term rape culture is a particularly annoying one to me because I think it means whetever people want it to, and sheds meanings when it isn't convienient.

 

Girls, and women's clothing has a very strong element of sexualizing women in a way that boys and men's clothing does not.  This is undoubtable something that contributes to the whole environment girls and boys move in, and affects their thinking - often without then really realizing it - because they are kids.  THis is why girls fashion tends to come in for more issues with regards to dress codes - it can reflect or create an atmosphere of sexualization in a way that we don't see often with boys fashions.

 

Boys can't really do anything much about this - they do not have the power to somehow change the nature of clothing that is intended to sexualize, and I am not sure how we could tell them not to notice it.  Everything in our culture is saying - this is a sexual message, the clothing, whether the girls notice it or not, is created that way on purpose.  Most boys will control themselves just fine - but it will affect their perception of what it means to be a boy or a girl, it will probably affect their feelings and attention. 

 

So I don't think it is odd at all that public schools for kids or immature teens want to control that message to some extent, to say - no, being a girl, being a student, is not all about that.  And since it is in fact wrapped around how we think about women's clothing, it does pretty much fall to the girls to actually wear different things, and become more aware of the nature of that hyper-sexualization of girls and women.  (And, I would say, lots don't really have much sense of this unless someone tells them - they often see certain things more in terms of what is popular or fashion, because they lack the experience to make accurate judgements.) 

[Bluegoat]

I would be totally flummoxed by this argument that people will think that they can totally avoid problems by doing not drinking or wearing the right thing, or whatever, that if anyone suggests these might be good ideas, they will cause people to blame themselves, and that it then becomes actually wrong to take reasonable risks.

 

I would be, except that people think other things that are so stupid.  Don't eat anything on the bad list when you are pregnant, or spank, or do CIO, and your child will be fine.  If your child is not fine, you are at fault, you must have done something wrong.  If you have a beer while you are pregnant, you should go to jail, and you better cut out sushi too, just in case.

 

Honestly though, if people's logic is that poor, if they are that subject to magical thinking, I don't see that it is really possible to do much about them, they will probably believe anything.  But I'm not going to take their view into account in thinking about whatever the actual topic is.

 

[Luckymama]

So sorry Joules :grouphug:

[Paige]

 

Girls, and women's clothing has a very strong element of sexualizing women in a way that boys and men's clothing does not.  This is undoubtable something that contributes to the whole environment girls and boys move in, and affects their thinking - often without then really realizing it - because they are kids.  THis is why girls fashion tends to come in for more issues with regards to dress codes - it can reflect or create an atmosphere of sexualization in a way that we don't see often with boys fashions.

 

 

 

It is not the clothing that is sexualizing girls and women. It's the culture. The clothing is neutral. In other cultures people walk around literally naked and nobody's saying the naked lady is looking for attention. It's entirely a subjective, cultural problem. And since it's a cultural issue, if we are aware of it and collectively decide that it's a problem, we can change our culture. 

 

I think there are 2 perspectives here. One way of looking at it is to say this is the way things are and we need to be realistic and work within that. The other way of looking at it is to say we need to change the way things are. In practice, I tell my kids to be practical and work within the way things are to be safe, but I think the problem is not that too many people aren't being realistic. The real problem is with the way things are so I focus my efforts on changing that.