s/o Victim Blaming

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Sorry, I did not read other posts.

 

We have become a society of whiners, in my opinion. Political correctness has reached a point of stupidity. By not analyzing risks of every incident, we are leaving our outcomes to pure chance. In the meantime, I am teaching my DD:

 

1. Do not get drunk or incapacitated in crowds, public places, or anywhere, for that matter.

2. Be on guard for any man that gets too close to soon, shows any possessive traits, or happens to be there when not invited. Be more aware if he attempts to separate one from family or friends.

3. Walk and talk assertively. Do not appear helpless.

4. Lock stuff.

5. Do not go out at night to roam or ramble.

6. Prepare. Know where one is going, have enough gas, and have a cell phone connected to the car.

7. Keep the Onstar bill paid.

8. Dress for success, not the red light district.

9. Know basic self protection methods. Know how to shoot.

 

If this is victim blaming so be it. I call it not being stupid. While this certainly cannot deter all assaults, it lowers the odds a bit. I am not going to wait on moms, the government, or some grandiose ad campaign to teach men how to act.

This is a very similar list to what many rape victims were taught, tried to follow, and still were raped. Then their actions are picked apart to show how they didn't follow one of the steps just right. Now it's their fault they were raped. Even nuns are raped, granted they might not have OnStar or a gun, but they certainly aren't usually out drinking or "dressing for the red light district". Their clothing is concealing.

 

" Crap, I didn't pay my Onstar bill on time, it's all my fault now"

 

 

 

 

 

As for the previous unlocked vehicle example, if you forget to lock your car, still not your fault the perpetrator is a thief.

[Scarlett]

This is a very similar list to what many rape victims were taught, tried to follow, and still were raped. Then their actions are picked apart to show how they didn't follow one of the steps just right. Now it's their fault they were raped. Even nuns are raped, granted they might not have OnStar or a gun, but they certainly aren't usually out drinking or "dressing for the red light district". Their clothing is concealing.

 

" Crap, I didn't pay my Onstar bill on time, it's all my fault now"

 

 

 

 

 

As for the previous unlocked vehicle example, if you forget to lock your car, still not your fault the perpetrator is a thief.

So you think we shouldn't teach our kids any of those things?

[Caroline]

It is not victim blaming to say it is unsafe to be unconscious around strangers. Period.

 

But we weren't talking about the story you mentioned above. And the comments you quoted about going to,church or staying home....what does that have to do with this board.

It is victim blaming when someone says the rape victim needs to take responsibility in her statement. It is victim blaming when someone calls the victim an idiot. Both of those things were done in the other thread.

[Caroline]

So you think we shouldn't teach our kids any of those things?

No one is saying don't tell your kid those things. What we are saying is don't say if you do these you won't be raped, because that simply is not true. Don't say if the victim had done one of these things she wouldn't have been raped, because you don't know that is true. Girls who have done all of those things have been raped.

[SporkUK]

Sorry, I did not read other posts.

 

We have become a society of whiners, in my opinion. Political correctness has reached a point of stupidity. By not analyzing risks of every incident, we are leaving our outcomes to pure chance. In the meantime, I am teaching my DD:

 

1. Do not get drunk or incapacitated in crowds, public places, or anywhere, for that matter.

2. Be on guard for any man that gets too close to soon, shows any possessive traits, or happens to be there when not invited. Be more aware if he attempts to separate one from family or friends.

3. Walk and talk assertively. Do not appear helpless.

4. Lock stuff.

5. Do not go out at night to roam or ramble.

6. Prepare. Know where one is going, have enough gas, and have a cell phone connected to the car.

7. Keep the Onstar bill paid.

8. Dress for success, not the red light district.

9. Know basic self protection methods. Know how to shoot.

 

If this is victim blaming so be it. I call it not being stupid. While this certainly cannot deter all assaults, it lowers the odds a bit. I am not going to wait on moms, the government, or some grandiose ad campaign to teach men how to act.

 

Okay, here is my incident for your analysis: Disabled pregnant young woman in hospital after vomiting for several hours, they say that an internal swab is required to confirm I am pregnant [when I have my antenatal notes with me and am clearly showing at 16 weeks and they've already taken bloods I did not consent to when they put in the IV]. I firmly asked why. I was then held down by two medical professionals while a third violently sexually assaulted me with large cylinder object and left me in what was later described to me as a concerningly large pool of blood. The three women laughed as they walked out of the room discussing how I had been taught a lesson. 

 

How would you analyze that, how would any form of analysis stop that from happening, what lesson could other people learn other than never to be vulnerable, never be sick, never ask questions, never be alone with anyone? Cause, seriously, everyone is vulnerable sometimes and a lot of what I hear in terms of 'analyzing risks' comes down to 'it's okay as long as it isn't you, let some other more vulnerable person deal with society's view on acceptable power and force, just make sure it's someone else that is attacked'. I waited years to tell anyone because all I had ever heard about being sexually assaulted is that I should have been able to know and defend myself when all I did after being held down was cry, I blamed myself and was silent for years because all I've seen is people excusing professionals and carers when they hurt disabled people. I refused to file a complaint because, as a child abuse survivor, I previously seen how complaining led to backlashes against me, how quick people are to retaliate and blame victims to build up and protect our abusers, the words 'don't tell anyone about this' from my childhood still ring in my ears. 

 

Seriously, and people wonder why I fear leaving the house sometimes. Both my partner and I have conditions that cause us to become unconscious and even though it hasn't happened for years, I still wonder if it did happen and I was attacked, would I be blamed because I was incapacitated in public. When my limbs randomly go numb, I wonder if I would be blamed because I wouldn't be able to defend myself and I wouldn't be able to fight back. I worry for the other young disabled people like I was who are put through compliance behaviour training who do regularly get the blame when they are assaulted because they've been taught it is bad it is to question and fight back. I wonder why lists like these that are so commonly found in these discussions focuses on strangers in the night and the lack of discussion on relationship, peer, and professional abuse that are far more likely to happen -- and how much of the rhetoric around stranger rapes directly, negatively harms everyone. 

 

The most vulnerable people in our society should not have to shoulder the burden and shame of not only being attacked, but also being blamed and used as teaching lessons. And being empathic, sympathic, compassionate, careful with our words and considering their potential impact before speaking or writing is never a sign of a lack of intellect. Painful words can hurt and hinder for a lifetime. Survivors [and sex workers since you mentioned them] are humans who do not deserve to be treated as lesson tools, and it is quite possible to teach safety without dragging others through wringer to prove a point. No lesson should come at someone else's humanity and playing armchair quarterback and analyzing where victims went wrong to somehow lower the odds a bit really mainly continues the social message that being vulnerable is to be wrong and deserving of pain or consequence -- and everyone is vulnerable no matter what actions we take. Some just are more than others. 

[Caroline]

The original question in the thread was:

 

 

However, where do we distinguish between advocating prudent actions to minimize your risks of being harmed by "bad people" vs. blaming victims?

 

 

That is what I was answering.

 

 

It wasn't said that doing those things mean you won't be raped. What was said was

 

Doing things like making sure your cell phone is charged, locking your doors, wearing seatbelts etc etc etc doesn't completely prevent anyone from becoming a victim.

 

Doing those things mitigates the risk. Talking about mitigating risk isn't victim blaming. It's talking about what are simple things that someone can do to make things less risky.

[Soror]

Yes, we teach our kids ways to try to be safe. BUT you do it with an acknowledgement that not everything is in our control. You do not do frame it in that not getting raped is the responsibility of the woman(or man), raping someone is 100% the choice of the rapist. Fault or blame is never the appropriate word for the victim. 

 

People continue to rape because we continue to let them with a slap on the wrist, if that. We continue to blame the women for the action of the men. We continue to make the women out to be the slut- she just regretted it etc. We continue to value the life of the men over their victim. We keep acting like men are just some helpless creatures that can't help themselves and women control them with their body. 

 

So be it if people think it is PC. Either you are continuing our rape culture or you're trying to put a stop to it. I have 3 girls I just don't have patience for anything else at this point.I want my girls to grow up in a better world and that starts with me. Language matters and I'm sure as h*ll going to do my damnedest to watch how I phrase things so if the unthinkable happens my daughter isn't afraid to turn to me for fear that I find fault in her for the actions of another. We will learn about protecting ourselves to the degree we can to be sure BUT again that will be outside the context of blame and fault.

 

The upworthy article posted above is a good one- 

Like I have the privilege of not thinking about it.

Like I don’t think about it when I go for a run after work and instead of using a timer, my personal best is just running faster than anyone who’s following me.

Like I don’t think about it when I leave the headphones at home on my way to pick up milk because I need to hear if anyone’s coming up behind me and it’s already hard enough to make out my music over the soundtrack of my someday interrogation:

“Don’t you know you live in K-town? Why would you walk alone after dark? What did you think was going to happen?â€

Like I don’t think about it when I pick an outfit from my closet and look at it like a piece of evidence.

“If I get raped when I’m wearing this tonight, how guilty would it make me?â€

Like maybe they should mark it on the tag: 60% cotton, 40% her fault.

Like I don’t think about it when strangers offer to buy me a beer.

Like this is Wonderland, and that bottle says, “Drink me,†and you think that my miniskirt says “Rape me.â€

Like we’re all just making bad choices.

Like I don’t think about it when my little sister sends me photos that she wants to put on Facebook, for my approval, to make sure they’re appropriate.

To make sure they’re safe. To imagine them under a headline about how she got raped behind a dumpster.

 

 

[MercyA]

Wow, SporkUK. I am so sorry those horrible women did that to you.  :grouphug:

Edited June 11, 2016 by MercyA

[Caroline]

Oh. The post you quoted said "So you think we shouldn't teach our kids any of those things?" so I thought that's what you were responding to.

I was. I don't understand your problem here. It's like you aren't reading. Yes, teach your kids these things, just be careful how you say it. Don't say it won't get them raped. That's the answer to the question.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It's all about the context, not necessarily about the content. 

 

Although content is often an issue. 

 

Everyone here is smart. It's not that hard to work out. 

 

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/faq-what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-suggesting-that-women-take-precautions-to-prevent-being-raped/

I totally agree with this article having been an ardent feminist all of my life. I have repeated said that I think that even if a women is naked out in public that she still does not deserve to be raped and that the rapist is always wrong. I know full well that women in a burqa or a nun's habit could get raped. I strongly feel that we should repeatedly teach our sons' about respect for women and about consent as in that British tea film and consent and sex.

 

That being said, I think it is prudent to teach our sons and daughters how to minimize harm to themselves since that is commonsense and unfortunately we live in a world where there are some bad people. Of course, using precautions will not eliminate all risks but I think it makes sense just as wearing as seat belt makes sense.

 

So I have repeatedly over the years taught my son how to protect himself and minimize risk by teaching him to wear seat belts, to look carefully when crossing the street, to carry his epi-pen, to dress appropriately for the weather, to not go with strangers, to not let others touch his privates or to see him naked, etc., etc. We have also had many conversations on the dignity and equality of both men and women and of all races. We have also had many conversations on the dangers and stupidity of the binge drinking and drugging that often occurs among high school and college kids. We have told him of how kids have actually died or hurt their health from this or who committed crimes. We have also discussed alternate activities for him to enjoy in his college years such as clubs and volunteering. My husband and I abhor the drinking and drugging culture and are doing our best to prevent him from seeking this out as an outlet to make friends.

 

Since we live in the city we have also had many conversations on how to protect oneself from robbery or assault with our son such as not staying out late or using uber later at night. How not to fight a robber and to give them whatever they want except in the case where you have to defend your life or to defend against being taken to another location where we advised to fight like heck or to try and run away.

 

We have also had many conversations on sex and how it should only take place ideally in a loving relationship and ideally when he is older, etc., etc. We have discussed on the drawbacks of teenage parenthood and about birth control. We have discussed about the sexual abuse, etc.

 

I would tell my daughter the same if I had one. As for clothes, I think both men and women should dress fairly modestly but again a rapist is always wrong. I do not like to see women dressed in a too sexualized way in general and not because I think they are more likely to get raped. It is because as a feminist, I have always despised how our culture sometimes puts pressure on women to be scantily dressed or to wear excessively high heels or do crazy things to their bodies just to please men. I think women should be pleasing as is so to speak without going through contortions. Now of course, I can understand wanting to look attractive, we all do but I always felt I never had to do things like that to look attractive.

 

My 2 cents.

Edited June 11, 2016 by NoPlaceLikeHome

[poppy]

So you think we shouldn't teach our kids any of those things?

 

Here's the thing.    You were teaching your kids these things already.  The Stanford rape case isn't what prompted you to think "oh, drinking to the point of passing out is a bad idea, I should probably teach that to my kids".  

 

The question isn't, should we teach the kids this.  You should.   The question is, when you see a rape that plays out this way, how do you talk about?

 

You can offer sympathy to the victim and outrage at the perpetrator.  This, to me, is teaching the lesson "rape is never OK under any circumstance".  Or, you can point out what steps the victim took that led to her victimization. This, to me, is teaching the lesson "rape happens to women who fail to protect themselves".  Which is NOT the same thing as "rape is never OK under any circumstance." As has been explained by a terribly high number of sexual assault victims, even here on this thread.   If you think rape is never OK under any circumstance, that is the lesson to emphasize. 

 

EVEN IF you think 'if my kid is ever dumb enough to pass out drunk at a college party, maybe getting fingered by some random jerk is a reasonable consequence' ... I still wouldn't use this case as an example. If your (collective your) daughter is unfortunate enough to be the victim of rape, she is likely second guess her choices, no matter what. A parents' unconditional condemnation of rape might help mitigate that.  And the opposite is true to: a parent teaching that rape is a shared responsibility between attacker and victim is definitely one that a  lot of women have absorbed.

Edited June 11, 2016 by poppy

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh damn that sucks.

 

I was abused by medical "professionals".  So yeah.  I was also a child.  Where did I go wrong?  Should I stop whining about it?

 

Big hugs...

 

 

Okay, here is my incident for your analysis: Disabled pregnant young woman in hospital after vomiting for several hours, they say that an internal swab is required to confirm I am pregnant [when I have my antenatal notes with me and am clearly showing at 16 weeks and they've already taken bloods I did not consent to when they put in the IV]. I firmly asked why. I was then held down by two medical professionals while a third violently sexually assaulted me with large cylinder object and left me in what was later described to me as a concerningly large pool of blood. The three women laughed as they walked out of the room discussing how I had been taught a lesson. 

 

How would you analyze that, how would any form of analysis stop that from happening, what lesson could other people learn other than never to be vulnerable, never be sick, never ask questions, never be alone with anyone? Cause, seriously, everyone is vulnerable sometimes and a lot of what I hear in terms of 'analyzing risks' comes down to 'it's okay as long as it isn't you, let some other more vulnerable person deal with society's view on acceptable power and force, just make sure it's someone else that is attacked'. I waited years to tell anyone because all I had ever heard about being sexually assaulted is that I should have been able to know and defend myself when all I did after being held down was cry, I blamed myself and was silent for years because all I've seen is people excusing professionals and carers when they hurt disabled people. I refused to file a complaint because, as a child abuse survivor, I previously seen how complaining led to backlashes against me, how quick people are to retaliate and blame victims to build up and protect our abusers, the words 'don't tell anyone about this' from my childhood still ring in my ears. 

 

Seriously, and people wonder why I fear leaving the house sometimes. Both my partner and I have conditions that cause us to become unconscious and even though it hasn't happened for years, I still wonder if it did happen and I was attacked, would I be blamed because I was incapacitated in public. When my limbs randomly go numb, I wonder if I would be blamed because I wouldn't be able to defend myself and I wouldn't be able to fight back. I worry for the other young disabled people like I was who are put through compliance behaviour training who do regularly get the blame when they are assaulted because they've been taught it is bad it is to question and fight back. I wonder why lists like these that are so commonly found in these discussions focuses on strangers in the night and the lack of discussion on relationship, peer, and professional abuse that are far more likely to happen -- and how much of the rhetoric around stranger rapes directly, negatively harms everyone. 

 

The most vulnerable people in our society should not have to shoulder the burden and shame of not only being attacked, but also being blamed and used as teaching lessons. And being empathic, sympathic, compassionate, careful with our words and considering their potential impact before speaking or writing is never a sign of a lack of intellect. Painful words can hurt and hinder for a lifetime. Survivors [and sex workers since you mentioned them] are humans who do not deserve to be treated as lesson tools, and it is quite possible to teach safety without dragging others through wringer to prove a point. No lesson should come at someone else's humanity and playing armchair quarterback and analyzing where victims went wrong to somehow lower the odds a bit really mainly continues the social message that being vulnerable is to be wrong and deserving of pain or consequence -- and everyone is vulnerable no matter what actions we take. Some just are more than others. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

After reading some of these responses I feel like some are using extreme examples to make their point on both ends and on both ends are missing the point.  Not all responses to bad things happening are about whining.  Not all bad things that happen are the result of anything anyone can control at all.  And then yes there are certainly people who act very recklessly and while might still be considered a victim probably should consider being more cautious.  There is taking a "normal" risk and then there is throwing yourself off a tall building and wondering if you'll survive the fall.

 

 

 

 

[Jaybee]

I have a lot of scattered thoughts on this and am not sure I can pull them together coherently. There is such a delicate balance in all this. We lived for years in a culture that does not treat women well. We intentionally taught our daughters ways to help keep themselves safer. Some of that involved our being more vigilant as parents (always walk behind them on the sidewalk, etc.). I hated that we had to be so proactive. I wished that our world was different and safer. I would not have assumed our girls (or any girls) were inviting an attack, but we had to recognize that the world we were in (and in general, the world we live in) is often not safe. So I did/do what I can to help keep them safer. It is not a guarantee. But it might help. 

 

One thing that has often bothered me about teaching kids methods of protecting themselves has been the assumption that if we do A, B, and C-- X, Y, and Z won't/can't happen. You see that assumption in many children's books on personal safety. Of course, we need to teach them about self-protection. But somehow, without scaring them into oblivion, they need to know that sometimes, no matter what you do, you might be overpowered, your screams or shouts might be ineffective (or you might not be able to do it), yelling "no!" might not work, etc., and it is NOT YOUR FAULT if someone does something bad to you. So...these particular things are good things to try? These things might keep you safe? I want my kids to have thought through scenarios. But I don't want them paralyzed by fear. I don't want them to refrain from telling us if something bad happens to them because they feel they should have been able to avoid it. In reality, we all occasionally do things that are not the smartest. Those things may or may not have extreme consequences. Of course it doesn't mean that they should be raped, tazed, killed, hit head-on, etc. But sometimes that happens too.

 

The high-and-mighty attitudes that you often see in comment threads bother me immensely. There is a difference in recognizing that we do not live in an ideal world, and in assuming that anything that happens in this world is due to the victim's ineptness. So somehow we try to teach in age-appropriate ways that this world can be very dangerous. Just because we wish that it were safe doesn't mean we should act as though it were. We try to find some balance with personal responsibility, our humanness and possibilities of not always being at the top of our game, the bad things/people in this world, and compassion. It's hard to find the right degree of tension with it all.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Although the way I look at teaching methods of protecting one's self is not that stuff can't happen, but it gives one the feeling that they have some control.  It's somewhat empowering. They don't have to walk around just being afraid, but can be proactive in trying to minimize risk.  What is the alternative?  Do whatever I want whenever I want because there is nothing I can do anyway?  Go around being terrified?  But yeah of course, stuff can still certainly happen. 

 

When I was a teen I had to sometimes walk home from my job late at night.  It was about 2 miles away.  It was often rather scary because I was alone.  Sometimes people would stop to offer me a ride.  I developed some coping techniques that I think were helpful.  Besides absolutely not engaging the person who stopped, one thing I'd often do is pretend as if I reached my destination and turn into the walkway of a house.  They always drove away after that.  Even during the day I absolutely never responded if someone stopped in their car to ask directions or whatever.  You don't ask a 16 year old girl directions in a place that has plenty of options to ask directions.  So I can only assume they were up to no good.  Interestingly nobody ever suggested these things to me.  I tell my own kids these things though.  I wish someone had told me! 

 

All that said, certainly stuff could have happened.  Thankfully it didn't.  I did feel less afraid knowing I had some plans in place for various scenarios. 

 

 

I have a lot of scattered thoughts on this and am not sure I can pull them together coherently. There is such a delicate balance in all this. We lived for years in a culture that does not treat women well. We intentionally taught our daughters ways to help keep themselves safer. Some of that involved our being more vigilant as parents (always walk behind them on the sidewalk, etc.). I hated that we had to be so proactive. I wished that our world was different and safer. I would not have assumed our girls (or any girls) were inviting an attack, but we had to recognize that the world we were in (and in general, the world we live in) is often not safe. So I did/do what I can to help keep them safer. It is not a guarantee. But it might help. 

 

One thing that has often bothered me about teaching kids methods of protecting themselves has been the assumption that if we do A, B, and C-- X, Y, and Z won't/can't happen. You see that assumption in many children's books on personal safety. Of course, we need to teach them about self-protection. But somehow, without scaring them into oblivion, they need to know that sometimes, no matter what you do, you might be overpowered, your screams or shouts might be ineffective (or you might not be able to do it), yelling "no!" might not work, etc., and it is NOT YOUR FAULT if someone does something bad to you. So...these particular things are good things to try? These things might keep you safe? I want my kids to have thought through scenarios. But I don't want them paralyzed by fear. I don't want them to refrain from telling us if something bad happens to them because they feel they should have been able to avoid it. In reality, we all occasionally do things that are not the smartest. Those things may or may not have extreme consequences. Of course it doesn't mean that they should be raped, tazed, killed, hit head-on, etc. But sometimes that happens too.

 

The high-and-mighty attitudes that you often see in comment threads bother me immensely. There is a difference in recognizing that we do not live in an ideal world, and in assuming that anything that happens in this world is due to the victim's ineptness. So somehow we try to teach in age-appropriate ways that this world can be very dangerous. Just because we wish that it were safe doesn't mean we should act as though it were. We try to find some balance with personal responsibility, our humanness and possibilities of not always being at the top of our game, the bad things/people in this world, and compassion. It's hard to find the right degree of tension with it all.

 

[Jaybee]

We definitely tried to instill "street smarts" into our kids. I discussed with them how even the ways they carry themselves, the ways they look around them on the sidewalk, etc., convey to those around them that they are not easy people to victimize. That didn't guarantee anything. But it did make them aware of the things/people around them so that they could possibly take action if they felt they needed to avoid a person or scenario. And yes, that gives a certain level of confidence and empowerment.

[Guest]

The genesis of this thread was 'how do we talk about this without victim blaiming?'

 

People have answered.

 

People have responded *I talk about this with my kids and I am certainly not victim blaming!*

 

.....K

 

We all talk to our kids and friends and internet screens about this stuff guys! All of us.

 

Stay safe out there. Talk to people if you want. Try to be compassionate when you do.

[Valley Girl]

After reading some of these responses I feel like some are using extreme examples to make their point on both ends and on both ends are missing the point.  Not all responses to bad things happening are about whining.  Not all bad things that happen are the result of anything anyone can control at all.  And then yes there are certainly people who act very recklessly and while might still be considered a victim probably should consider being more cautious.  There is taking a "normal" risk and then there is throwing yourself off a tall building and wondering if you'll survive the fall.

 

Good point.

 

Personally, I think there needs to be a far more liberal use of JAWM on threads where people clearly do not wish to be sidetracked with dissenting opinions. It's very rare to have the opinion stated in a particular OP carry the entire thread. It just doesn't. That's the nature of conversation. So if a topic is controversial and sensitive, make it clear up front that other opinions (or what kind of opinions) aren't welcome on that particular thread. People who wish to dissent can start another one, and you (general you) can then be mutually respectful and not participate in the new one if it bothers you. But this constant sniping at each other and accusing people of saying or implying things people didn't say or imply is really disheartening. More and more, it feels as though people just talk past each other. It's a shame because I've learned so much on this board, even--or especially--from people I don't agree with on topics.

 

Edited to fix a typo.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[SparklyUnicorn]

We definitely tried to instill "street smarts" into our kids. I discussed with them how even the ways they carry themselves, the ways they look around them on the sidewalk, etc., convey to those around them that they are not easy people to victimize. That didn't guarantee anything. But it did make them aware of the things/people around them so that they could possibly take action if they felt they needed to avoid a person or scenario. And yes, that gives a certain level of confidence and empowerment.

 

I do feel like it helps "for real".  Sure, if someone is hell bent on giving you a hard time they certainly will find a way to do it.  But I'm not going to go out of my way to make it easy for them.

[City Mouse]

This may be a bit off topic, but I have an example that is not related to sexual assault, so I am wondering sexual assaults are just so horrible (and they are) that it is very difficult for people to discuss without getting emotional/personal/insert better word.

 

A bit of background- My DD has many autistic characteristics but is not diagnosed. She is very blac and white, and has always been very focused on being "right" about things. Her learning to drive was a horrible ordeal for me and her. She took drivers Ed in school and knew everything in the book. She could tell you all the driving laws. She could tell you exactly what the book said people were supposed to act/behave in a certain situation. What she had a very hard time with was the fact that other drivers did not act the was they were supposed to. Other drivers did not always follow the laws. One day, my DD and I are out, and she is driving. She pulls out from an intersection in a perfectly legal manner. Unfortunately, another driver does not follow the law and ends up hitting us. My DD does not understand why I am upset with her actions because she was following the law and the other person was at fault. She does not see where she has any responsibility in the accident.

A couple of days later, we set down to discuss what happened. I agree that she was legally "right" in this situation and that the other guy was wrong for not stopping at the intersection. However, I have to explain to her that the goal of driving is not to be "right". It is to get where you need to go without an accident or injury. Just because she knows all the rules and will follow them exactly, does not mean that other people will. As a driver she is responsible for being aware of situations and anticipating when someone may not be following the laws exactly right. That is called defensive driving.

 

I don't see this situation and discussion as "victim shaming" but I would not sit down with a victim of a sexual assault and analyze the details of what happened and discuss what could have been done differently. But I don't see a problem talking with other people about what might could have been done differently to get a different outcome.

 

There are consequences to every action. Determining who is at fault or who is right or wrong isn't always the point.

I have gotten a purse stolen out of a car. I have had cars broken into several times. It isn't my "fault" that the car was broken into, but I am not going to leave my purse sitting in the car in plain sight even though I really wish that there were not scumbag people around who will break into cars and steal stuff. It sucks, but that is reality.

[marbel]

Nm.  Started typing too soon and realize I was being repetitive.  :-)

Edited June 11, 2016 by marbel

[SKL]

Next time there's a highway accident, I dare you to call the victim's family and say, "Don't you know that interstate crashes are more likely to be deadly? It's really too bad he didn't take the back roads, huh?"

 

The OP clearly said it would be wrong to kick a victim while down.

 

If they had posted the story on WTM the next day and someone commented, "scary - that's why I take backroads" would that poster be a victim shamer?  Or if another poster wrote, "I tell my kids it's safer to take backroads for just that reason."  Victim shaming?

[fairfarmhand]

I almost never get into these threads, but for me and my girls, I frame it as being wise and looking ahead to potential outcomes.

 

I also start these conversations with " When evil people hurt others, it is never the fault of the victim."

 

Kind of like how I don't run after dark, because I don't want to get mowed down by cars. Or how we pay attention to how our cattle, especially the bull, are behaving before we start working them. If they're agitated, there's a likelihood that someone may get hurt. So we wait till another day.

 

 

And we don't discuss these things in the context of a news story. It's not my business to stand up and point fingers at someone else and talk about where they went wrong. I think that's the victim blaming thing. I just talk about them in the context of "Oh, that party you want to go to next weekend? lets talk about staying safe while you're there."

[DesertBlossom]

We can teach kids that there are ways they can protect themselves while also teaching them that there are bad people who are going to do bad things no matter what. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

[SKL]

I don't understand why people can't separate the reality that criminals exist from the reality that prevention is wise.

 

Let's compare rapists to bears for a moment.  I know bears can't help it that they're bears, and rapists can, but from the victim's perspective, that doesn't change the fact that an attack is an attack.

 

When you go out hiking in bear country, you are told to do various things to discourage those bears from coming close to you and even trying anything.  Then if a bear comes close you have additional instructions on how to get it to run away.  Ultimately it may not work and you may be mauled.  Now if someone posted on WTM a story of a bear mauling (not their own family) and a discussion started up on the thread about bear encounter prevention, would that be viewed ad victim shaming?  No.  In fact, even if the victim had specifically gone against recommendations (e.g., got up closer to get a photo), people would be saying "what an idiot" here on WTM.  "Everyone knows or should know not to do that."  Now that might actually be victim shaming, but I'll bet nobody here would call it out, because nobody would read it as mitigating the bear's guilt - because the bear's guilt is not a thing.

 

If we all agree a rapist is guilty, then anything said after that does not take from that.  The rapist's guilt is a thing, but what if we separated that out in our minds, because doing so would allow us to give really useful prevention advice that could actually help women?  Or can't our brains manage that?

I have pondered whether some of us are more able to separate the two because of the way our brains work in general.  For me, I have emotions and I have logic, and usually (unless I'm being personally attacked), the two can work independently.  Some people seem to have a lot of trouble with that.  And maybe they are the normal ones, and I'm a psychopath because I can think about prevention in a thread about an actual rape.  I dunno.

Edited June 11, 2016 by SKL

[Guest]

I think it is well and right and good that we treat (speak about) assault differently than we treat other issues.

 

There is no implied morality in the issue of defensive driving.

 

All metaphors will always fall short because there's nothing like being raped. Like there's nothing like being murdered.

[Guest]

We can teach kids that there are ways they can protect themselves while also teaching them that there are bad people who are going to do bad things no matter what. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

Correct.

 

Once more, with feeling! No one is saying anyone should be dishonest with or tell partial truths to their children.

[Paige]

For me, I find it irritating because of how one sided and overdone it is. Everyone knows that some things are generally riskier than others. Everyone. Everyone who gets drunk at a party already knows it is risky behavior and I can't imagine anyone over the age of 11 not realizing that unless they have some sort of mental issue or developmental delay. So, everything anyone says, we all already know, and it's not super helpful. It's not helpful because even if you do everything right and reduce your risks, you can still be assaulted. 

 

I find it irritating because the conversation should 100% be directed at how we can raise our children and the future generation to not assault people. That is what will really make an impact and that is the conversation that is different from the one that has been going on for years and has not been effective.

[SKL]

People keep saying it's fine to say these things to your kids, just don't say it on a public message board where people are going to take it all sorts of ways.  I disagree.

 

IME messages that teens / young adults hear only from their parents go largely in one ear and out the other.  It is very helpful to have other authorities provide supporting viewpoints.

 

I can tell my kids that cigarettes are highly addictive and unhealthy, but if the public statements don't back me up or even contradict me (e.g., you can get lung cancer whether you smoke or not, without mentioning that smoking is a big risk factor), then how much weight are my kids going to give my words when they are out in the world?  Well maybe that's why all the public statements about cigarettes and most public discussions about it and even the cigarette wrappers themselves acknowledge the risk and mostly encourage abstention.

 

How about anti-bullying education.  Is it victim shaming to teach kids how to respond more effectively to bullying behavior?  It's not their fault bullies bully, so is giving them some better techniques a way of shifting the blame to the victim?

 

And think about it - who does this mindset really benefit?  The perpetrators who now have victims who are easier targets.  Thanks to all those people who thought they were supporting rape victims, there may be more rape victims needing support.  I truly believe this in the rational side of my brain.  The emotional side of my brain says that is not OK.

Edited June 11, 2016 by SKL

[Guest]

 

 the conversation that is different from the one that has been going on for years and has not been effective.

 

The conversation entitled:

How to protect the women from themselves. --A retrospective through millennia

[marbel]

For me, I find it irritating because of how one sided and overdone it is. Everyone knows that some things are generally riskier than others. Everyone. Everyone who gets drunk at a party already knows it is risky behavior and I can't imagine anyone over the age of 11 not realizing that unless they have some sort of mental issue or developmental delay. So, everything anyone says, we all already know, and it's not super helpful. It's not helpful because even if you do everything right and reduce your risks, you can still be assaulted. 

 

I find it irritating because the conversation should 100% be directed at how we can raise our children and the future generation to not assault people. That is what will really make an impact and that is the conversation that is different from the one that has been going on for years and has not been effective.

 

100%?  Really?  0% on what people can do to mitigate risk?

 

There are always going to be people who do bad things to other people.  I am doing what I can to train 100% of my children not to commit crimes against other people.  Perhaps 100% of parents on this board are doing the same thing.  100% of the people in the world are not.  And even among those who are raised not to harm others, some still will.

 

So, no, I'm not giving 100% to "don't do these things to others" but also giving some of it to "here are some things you can do to try to minimize your risk of someone else doing it to you."    

 

(Note I did not say "do these things and nothing bad will happen" because no one can promise that.)

 

[happi duck]

A woman could be naked and unconscious and not be raped if there are no rapists around. The same woman could be fully clothed and fully aware and be raped.

 

Doing all the "right things" and not being raped does not mean the "right things" are why one was not raped.

 

We should all be aware and protect ourselves. We should teach our kids but, again, this conversation, this lesson, does not need a victim to be an object lesson or cautionary tale.

[JanetC]

I think that prevention can, when taken too far, cause harm by keeping women from being full participants in society.

 

Women who are afraid to travel or to go to a professional conference where alcohol may be served are hurting their careers.

 

Another way prevention can cause harm is by focusing on what's easy to do, or what we imagine the problem to be, rather than what the problem really is.

 

It's easier to give women whistles for when a stranger attacks than to talk about the reality of date rape. Women usually know their attackers, but because we are not comfortable with that, we'd rather call those rapes "a date gone wrong" or believe somehow a nice, clean cut guy does not belong in prison like a "real rapist."

[TranquilMind]

Yeah I guess the trouble is i want to see a society where women can jog alone, go out at night, walk home from work late without fear. Advising women of how to avoid risk inevitably compromises their freedom in some way. Kind of like the stranger danger thing with kids. And really so much of the risk in homes and inherent to society really how meaningful are these discussions.

 

We all want this society.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't exist and won't until the trumpet sounds.  Right now, we have to do what we can to protect ourselves.

 

I don't really believe that declining to walk home alone at 2 a.m. compromises freedom.  It's just wise, no matter who you are. 

 

People are so disturbed today, they don't even care if it is the middle of the night so they are likely not to be seen.  It happens in full daylight. 

There is an enormous difference between wisdom and fear. 

 

[TranquilMind]

100%?  Really?  0% on what people can do to mitigate risk?

 

There are always going to be people who do bad things to other people.  I am doing what I can to train 100% of my children not to commit crimes against other people.  Perhaps 100% of parents on this board are doing the same thing.  100% of the people in the world are not.  And even among those who are raised not to harm others, some still will.

 

So, no, I'm not giving 100% to "don't do these things to others" but also giving some of it to "here are some things you can do to try to minimize your risk of someone else doing it to you."    

 

(Note I did not say "do these things and nothing bad will happen" because no one can promise that.)

 

Yeah.  Duh.

 

I don't have kids who would attack anyone anywhere, no matter what the circumstances.  So I don't need to devote any discussion to that.  Our discussion has been focused on what to do to minimize risks in various scenarios.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

I agree that nothing should ever be said to a victim about what they could have or should have done. Totally inappropriate.

 

However, I am a bit confused at those who insist we acknowledge that we have a rape culture but refuse to allow discussion on how we can protect ourselves while living in that rape culture.  Yes, I know we need to teach boys and men not to rape women. But I have no control over what boys outside of my own home are taught, so I will take measures to protect myself, with the understanding that bad things sometimes happen (and men still find ways to rape), no matter what we do.

 

Again, no one said safety can't be discussed. No one.

 

We have repeatedly suggested how that can be done in a way that minimizes the contribution to the rape culture.

 

You do have control over how you discuss the victim both in public and in private. You have the choice to contribute to the problem by continuing to shift the focus to the victim's actions and away from the rapist's.

 

When rape cases come up, there are so many, many valuable discussion topics to thoughtfully pick our way through.  Why the need to drink to blacking out?  I remember passing out (general college population) as being an unintentional consequence, not blacking out as being an intentional end point. How many of us know that a blacked out person can be fully functional?  Athletes as being entitled members of society and how that plays out.  There could be a whole thread on drinking alone. It's good to remind yourself of what legal limits look. How many drinks per hour?  Can we change women's perception that their value is tied to their relationship with a man? (General point and obviously not applicable to everyone) Sebastian has a thread running on whether or not we glamorize binge drinking and the hook-up culture.  Does increasing social media use also decrease our social skills in interacting in one on one situations?  Oh, so many places to go and we seldom get pass the "Why can't we say these women were stupid and how we can protect ourselves?" points.  It always come down to the safety list being the sole focus.

[Corraleno]

But I get what the OP is saying.

 

If the person got into an accident because he/she was texting, or fell asleep at the wheel due to driving while extremely tired, or was distracted and not paying attention to the road......no, you never say something like that to the family, but you CAN explain to your children the dangers and use examples of people who didn't do what they were supposed to do and how dangerous it can be.

 

Yes, it was an accident.  No, we don't want it to happen again, so Yes, we discuss it to prevent it from happening again.

 

This analogy does not work.

 

If someone causes an accident because they were texting, their behavior caused the accident.

If someone causes an accident because they fell asleep at the wheel, their behavior caused the accident.

If someone causes an accident because they were not paying attention to the road, their behavior caused the accident.

 

If someone is raped while drinking, their behavior (drinking) did not cause the rape.  The rapist's behavior caused the rape. 100%. Full stop.

 

If we tell our kids these things as if they are comparable "warnings," we set them up to believe that A causes B, and that is absolutely not true of rape and assault.

[Sarah CB]

The problem in society right now is that we've swung so far that we're at the point where even cautioning people to minimize risks is seen as victim blaming.

 

Case in point from my city.  About six months ago, it became known to local police and to bar owners that someone (or some people) were drugging women's drinks in bars.  I can't remember the exact details, only that they were aware that it was happening and they hadn't caught the person (or people) yet.  So, the police went on the radio and talked about it and warned women not to leave their drinks unattended.

 

Well, someone else called the radio and completely went off about how the message from the police was victim blaming.  She said what they should have done was come on the radio and warn the person who was doing the drugging not to do it anymore.  She likened it to how drunk driving is dealt with - people aren't warned to stay off the streets at night in case of drunk drivers, it's the drivers who are told not to drink and drive.

 

I think we need to be able to caution people - don't leave your drink unattended, don't leave your wallet in plain view in your car, lock your doors, don't get so drunk you lose awareness of what is going on around you, etc.  

 

But, I don't think that someone should be chastised after an assault or a robbery.  No one should tell the person who left her wallet on her seat and her window open that she shouldn't have done that, no one should tell the girl who left her drink on the bar while she went to the bathroom that if she hadn't done that she wouldn't have been drugged and assaulted.  That would be victim blaming, but teaching people how to potentially minimize risks isn't.

 

 

[Paige]

 

We should all be aware and protect ourselves. We should teach our kids but, again, this conversation, this lesson, does not need a victim to be an object lesson or cautionary tale.

 

That is what I was saying when I said 100% on the teaching people not to assault others. It's because the other conversation is already going on and has been for years, and saying we need to say it more is not going to help. I do tell my DDs how to be safe (and DS), but in a national conversation about rape culture, I feel the problem is not with victims making themselves easy prey. At all. 

 

Do people really think that if the victim only knew that blacking out made her vulnerable then she wouldn't have blacked out? I don't get it. Of course she knew. She took a risk like we all do every day. She probably takes risks I wouldn't, but perhaps I take risks that she wouldn't. Minimizing risk is not novel information and it's not telling anyone anything they don't know. 

 

Most parents of offenders did not believe their children could do what they did. What makes any of us different? We should quit thinking offenders are other people or monsters and realize they are just people and anyone can do terrible things. It doesn't make them terrible people that are easy to pick out from the rest of the population. Why shouldn't every one of us really work with our DS's about consent, entitlement, the way drugs can affect their ability to make decisions and control their emotions, etc? I don't believe my DS will offend either, but he won't be hurt if the conversation focuses on why men rape and how to prevent it instead of why women get raped.

[SKL]

Since someone brought up dress codes - have you never heard people complaining about boys leaving their pants down showing their underwear?  How come that isn't slut shaming?

 

If boys' fashions were as revealing as girls' fashions, there would be similar comments about them.  Why are boys' clothes so much less skimpy than girls' clothes?  I am trying to buy shorts for my 9yo and it's a real challenge to find something that doesn't look like Daisy Duke.  But I suppose not wanting my kid's butt cheeks to show every time she bends over is slut shaming.

[Scarlett]

It is victim blaming when someone says the rape victim needs to take responsibility in her statement. It is victim blaming when someone calls the victim an idiot. Both of those things were done in the other thread.

The vast majority of people were not saying such things.

[Scarlett]

The problem is we've been forcing women to do the majority of the changing and prevention. All of those things we teach our kids (and you should teach your kids!!) about how to stay safe isn't helping. Look at the rape stats. Looking outward is what will change things. Identifying rape culture and calling it out will bring attention to behavior that has been normalized that really shouldn't be.

 

School dress codes come to mind. They are getting more and more strict to prevent boys from being tempted to sexually harass or rape. Really? It's up to the girls to dress a certain way. Male swimmers shouldn't wear speedos because it's too revealing said no one ever. But girls can't wear a tank top.

 

If 99% of rapists are male, then there should be more classes for men about rape prevention than for women; especially for fraternities and athletes.

 

Blaming girls for sexting their boyfriends who then share it with everyone. It's easy to say the girl shouldn't have taken the pictures, but how about teaching the boys about respecting girls privacy and discretion.

 

It's every teen movie where the persistent boy wins the girl over by convincing her she actually really likes him.

 

 

Men are much more likely to confess to sexually assaulting someone when you don't use the R word. Lots of Men Don't Think Rape is Rape Why is that? Because their definition of rape is the same famous myth of a stranger with a knife or gun jumping out of the bushes. It's not the boyfriend who pressures his girlfriend into sex. All guys do that right? It's not the intoxicated girl that you put your hand down her pants. Almost a third of the men (31.7 percent) said that in a consequence-free situation, they’d force a woman to have sexual intercourse, while 13.6 percent said they would rape a woman. The researchers think that “men who endorse using force to obtain intercourse on survey items but deny rape on the same may not experience hostile affect in response to women, but might have dispositions more in line with benevolentsexism.â€

I certainly am raising my son to respect humans and not violate anyone in anyway. I hope my values stick with hm. Beyond that I have zero control over any other man. I do have control over myself and I will identify ways I can protect myself and do so. Doesn't mean I won't get assaulted someday. Just means I was as careful as I could be to avoid the crazy.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Since someone brought up dress codes - have you never heard people complaining about boys leaving their pants down showing their underwear?  How come that isn't slut shaming?

 

If boys' fashions were as revealing as girls' fashions, there would be similar comments about them.  Why are boys' clothes so much less skimpy than girls' clothes?  I am trying to buy shorts for my 9yo and it's a real challenge to find something that doesn't look like Daisy Duke.  But I suppose not wanting my kid's butt cheeks to show every time she bends over is slut shaming.

 

Although dress codes....rape is not about dress codes. 

[SKL]

Although dress codes....rape is not about dress codes. 

 

Of course not, but apparently rape victim shaming is about dress codes, since it as brought up in this thread (not by me).

Edited June 11, 2016 by SKL

[happi duck]

That is what I was saying when I said 100% on the teaching people not to assault others. It's because the other conversation is already going on and has been for years, and saying we need to say it more is not going to help. I do tell my DDs how to be safe (and DS), but in a national conversation about rape culture, I feel the problem is not with victims making themselves easy prey. At all. 

 

Do people really think that if the victim only knew that blacking out made her vulnerable then she wouldn't have blacked out? I don't get it. Of course she knew. She took a risk like we all do every day. She probably takes risks I wouldn't, but perhaps I take risks that she wouldn't. Minimizing risk is not novel information and it's not telling anyone anything they don't know. 

 

Most parents of offenders did not believe their children could do what they did. What makes any of us different? We should quit thinking offenders are other people or monsters and realize they are just people and anyone can do terrible things. It doesn't make them terrible people that are easy to pick out from the rest of the population. Why shouldn't every one of us really work with our DS's about consent, entitlement, the way drugs can affect their ability to make decisions and control their emotions, etc? I don't believe my DS will offend either, but he won't be hurt if the conversation focuses on why men rape and how to prevent it instead of why women get raped.

 

happi duck here being paranoid duck for a moment...

I just wanted to be sure that you know that I was already agreeing with you and that is why I wrote what I did.  I can't tell if you quoted me because you saw me agreeing or if you were quoting me because you thought I was not agreeing.  So for the record...I was agreeing with you!

 

I'm having a panicky day and just needed to be sure...carry on!

[Greta]

I never went to wild parties or got blackout drunk.  

 

I never got raped.  

 

I can see the temptation to think that those two facts are related.  But they are NOT.  They are a coincidence that could very easily make me feel good about myself, that I protected myself by making the “right†choices, IF it weren’t for the fact that the women I know who have been raped were not drunk, were not at a wild party, were not out alone late at night, were not in “bad†neighborhoods, were not dressed provocatively or leading him on, were not doing any of the the things that we get told not to do.  They were just girls and women who were living their lives, and had the misfortune of being in proximity to a rapist:  walking to school, playing with the kids in the neighborhood, going on a first date at the age of 16, accepting the offer of a ride from a coworker, answering the door when a friend of her boyfriend dropped by unexpectedly.  They did NOTHING that led to the rape.  They did NOTHING to put themselves “at risk†unless you count being female.

 

I understand the desire to protect ourselves and our daughters, because believe me, as the mom of a daughter myself, it scares the crap out of me, knowing how vulnerable she is.  Yes, I talk to her about ways she can try to protect herself.  I don’t know any parent who doesn’t.  But when those kinds of discussions are about rape, they need to be handled with a lot more delicacy and thoughtfulness than when they are about having stuff stolen from your car.  Because the stakes are so much higher.  There are few things in this world that I can imagine that would be worse than my daughter being raped.  But one of those things is, my daughter being raped AND having my careless, blaming words in her head, adding to the self-blame and guilt and shame that all rape victims seem to feel.  

 

Have we discussed the dangers of wild parties?  Sure!  Will we discuss it in the context of this particular case?  NO.  What’s up for discussion in this case is, why does our culture give athletes more of a pass when it comes to beating and raping women?  Why do judges give such light sentences to rapists, while giving harsh sentences for non-violent crimes?  Why have so many colleges been in denial about this very serious problem for so long?  THOSE are the questions this should bring up.  Not “why did she go to that party?†or “why did she get drunk?† That poor young woman was raped for one reason and one reason only:  because of a rapist.  Her behavior is not up for discussion, at least not in my household.

 

By the way, the girl I mentioned who got raped while playing with friends in the neighborhood was my mom.  She was five years old when it happened.  And she never told a soul, not even my father, until just a few years ago, because she felt so ashamed and blamed herself for being “so stupid.† Can you imagine?  She blamed HERSELF for the fact that a grown man lured an innocent little five year old girl away from her friends so that he could abuse her.  THAT is why these discussions of what the victim did or didn’t do to avoid the crime have to stop.  They don’t protect us.  Yet they do shift the blame to the victim.

 

[SKL]

 

By the way, the girl I mentioned who got raped while playing with friends in the neighborhood was my mom.  She was five years old when it happened.  And she never told a soul, not even my father, until just a few years ago, because she felt so ashamed and blamed herself for being “so stupid.† Can you imagine?  She blamed HERSELF for the fact that a grown man lured an innocent little five year old girl away from her friends so that he could abuse her.  THAT is why these discussions of what the victim did or didn’t do to avoid the crime have to stop.  They don’t protect us.  Yet they do shift the blame to the victim.

 

Why assume that feeling of shame is caused by external forces?  I too was molested as a child and I too felt irrational shame.  As you point out, rape victims have a natural tendency to feel shame.  I don't know why, but if you think about it, that is one of the reasons rapists rape - because it hurts so much emotionally, largely because of that natural tendency to feel shame.

 

So to your point, "these discussions ... don't protect us" - can you really protect a rape victim from those feelings, regardless of what has or has not been said about prevention?  I think not.  I think there is ample evidence that shame / self-blame is an extremely common response even among little kids who have never heard of rape or rape prevention.  I think the assumption that it's a learned reaction is faulty.  Can you make it worse by rubbing it in, sure, but that's not what anyone is advocating here.

 

Think about it - many of the people talking about rape risk avoidance have been victims of rape or molestation.  Many of them have drunk alcohol in less-than-perfectly-safe situations.  Some have experienced both at the same time.  They are thinking, "I don't want others to have this happen to them."  Some might even be thinking, "I would prefer others learn from my mistakes than make the same mistakes and get hurt."

Edited June 11, 2016 by SKL

[DawnM]

I can't help but be concerned about my son being falsely accused.  There seems to be a "he was a boy and she was unconscious, so it must have happened."

 

I am not talking about this particular incident.

But what if that girl had been left and one of my sons (or yours) found her and tried to help her but someone saw him with an unconscious, assaulted, naked girl?  I worry that the court of public opinion would be accusatory immediately.

 

I want my son to know that he should not bend down to help her or try to give her CPR, or do anything other than immediately get on his phone and call 911.

 

And honestly, that makes me sad that I even have to think about it.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

The point was that there shouldn't be a dress code based on how the male students will react. I was pointing out that is part of rape culture. The boys can't control themselves, so the girls must change their behavior.

 

This makes me crazy when I hear about this stuff.  And interestingly it seems that the majority of clothing issues that supposedly must be fixed revolve around what females are wearing.  Growing up the only one I can recall for boys was hats.  With girls there was a long list.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I can't help but be concerned about my son being falsely accused.  There seems to be a "he was a boy and she was unconscious, so it must have happened."

 

I am not talking about this particular incident.

But what if that girl had been left and one of my sons (or yours) found her and tried to help her but someone saw him with an unconscious, assaulted, naked girl?  I worry that the court of public opinion would be accusatory immediately.

 

I want my son to know that he should not bend down to help her or try to give her CPR, or do anything other than immediately get on his phone and call 911.

 

And honestly, that makes me sad that I even have to think about it.

 

Well not so much this, but you know what I find difficult is when talking about this with my boys, I feel like I'm treating them as if they might be potential rapists.  Seems like a lousy way to treat someone.  I mean no I don't say that, but what exactly should I say?  I think part of it is we say this is not about sex, but we talk about it as if it is so we advise our boys regarding how to behave towards women regarding sex.  Yet...sex isn't the issue with rape...so we say.  So what is it?  If it's not about sex or our attitude or their upbringing, what are we going to say that is going to make a difference?  It's one thing to say treat women respectfully, don't snap girls' bras, for example, etc...but bra snapping isn't rape.  It's disrespectful and rude, but not rape nor an indication that a boy will be a rapist.

 

Maybe that makes no sense, but it's a confusing subject.