If you had the choice, which would you pick?

[Tap]

I really can't give a lot of specifics, because it would be wayyy too much to try to explain on the internet. So, please don't ask for clarification.  Too few details will make the situation seem way different than it really is, so I can't answer even simple questions.

 

If you had a middle-school child with an iq score that is right on the cusp between borderline intelligence & impaired intelligence (accurate testing based on real life experiences) which group would you choose for them:

 

 

 

Would you rather put your child in a traditional, age/grade based learning environment with traditional students their own age, but know that your child will struggle, be frustrated, and come out at the bottom of the group?  Realizing that in life,that the peer group you have in school, is often the same one you have when you are out of school. You would expect them to try hard and to at least pass high school with a regular diploma but they will need some extra help to get there (tutoring, IEP, etc). Some of this student's  peers will be college bound, some will head right in to the work force, but they are all capable of living independently.  You expect that you child will grow up, go in to the work force and live independently, but know they will need lots of extra supports along the way. 

 

Or

 

Put them in a program with lower academic goals, with kids who are friendly but non-academic, and know that your child will come out on top....simply because the bar is set low. They will have more time to develop social skills and build friendships. They will be happier, but not academically challenged in anyway. They will have a modified diploma, and their peer group will not be college bound.  Few of the peers will live independently, unless it is in a supported environment (ie group home). Future jobs will be entry level work or assisted training programs.  You expect that your child will come out with the skills needed to live independently (a task the school will teach).  Job prospects will be entry level with modified diploma/experiences and will likely not progress beyond that. Due to how things are set up, the family can not augment the education. What they get at school is the limit to the education.

 

 

I know a family that is trying to decide on a school for their child. One parent would choose program A, the other parent would choose B.  The choices are two, radically different, independent programs (equivalent of tiny private schools).  There is no mix between environments.  It is all or nothing.  One program or the other. And no switching programs for 2 years with out Huge problems and/or financial loss (imagine the programs are pre-paid for 2 years, and non-refundable)

 

I am not giving an 'other' option, because these are the only two programs IRL, so you don't get an 'other' choice either.  The child will go to one of the two. 

 

I was trying to think of what I would choose for my own special needs daughter in this situation, and it would be very hard decision to make.  I thought I was bring it here for some feedback, and see if I could help my friend and her husband, come to a mutual agreement. 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Tap

[abba12]

As someone with disabilities both mental and physical, I have developed far more as a person rising to challenges than breezing through low expectations. The real world situations prepared me for adult life, and how to cope in it the way I am. My worry sending the child to a group of children worse off than him would be that he would have no preparation, confidence or motivation for the job that he IS capable of having and the independence he CAN work towards.

 

Don't get me wrong, where intervention is necessary I'd do it. If he was obviously of an impaired intelligence and unlikely to live independently the lower program would be great for him to meet peers and such. 

 

But at the borderline, I'd want him to aim high rather than settle for low. I'd want him to be used to socializing with general populations than solely others like him. I'd want him to learn to accept failure in the 'safe' environment of school before he hits the world. I would not want to set up an unrealistic ideal of what the world is like based on the normal he sees in a class for disabled students.

 

But, as someone with Aspergers and a visual impairment, I am strongly, strongly against any form of coddling or catering to disabilities beyond the necessities. Some kids NEED that class, he doesn't, it would be coddling and making him succeed in an artificial system. I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, I have very strong opinions on this topic after growing up with other kids who have Aspergers. The huge, massive difference between those who were catered to and those who were treated like typical kids who needed a little extra support is MASSIVE and depressing. Generally, a child is better off long-term learning to manage among the general population as best as they are capable. 

[scoutingmom]

I agree... I'd select the regular program with the challenges. It has, in my opinion, the best of the possible outcomes. If it doesn't work after a couple of years - then re-evaluate.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[kiwik]

I think the regular but that assumes his basic education has been solid and the parents can afford tutoring if required (or it is available through the school)

[Guest]

Challenge. Absolutely. If the child is borderline and able to function at all in the environment I think it is worth a try.

 

I would worry the other group would just put them further and further behind by not challenging or growing them and make coping with the real world that much harder.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Ausmumof3]

How are the kids at the traditional learning environment? Generally I value happiness over high level of academic success but it sounds like the long term outcome could be quite difficult from the less challenging environment. But I wouldn't risk exposure to a high level of bullying and teasing if it's likely at the traditional school as that does long term damage too. I'd prefer emotional well being over academic achievement.

[bettyandbob]

Is job training going to be available after the child finishes the program with high achievement. Learning enough Algebra 2and Geography to state mandated graduation requirements rounds great, but is it information that will be useful in the long run to this person. Will this child retain this knowledge long term?

 

How does this particular state handle job training for persons with disabilities. Some states font send a student who graduates with a regular diploma to job training. The reasoning is by graduating at the level, the student has proved extra training and job placement assistance is not necessary. Is the family going to be able to get job training and placement assistance no matter the type of diploma?

 

Has the child been around the high academic achievement peers before, what is their level of acceptance?

 

Will any peers in high a chievement program actually be peers? What is the potential for any other student to build a relationship and interact, even a tiny amount, beyond school requirements with child?

 

Has the child been in typical environments to this point?

 

How does frustration manifest itself in this child? Is behavior going to set the child apart in a very negative way?

 

This is tough because I don't want to sell my child short, but I don't want my child potential destroyed because his self esteem goes down the toilet. I don't want him to develop permanent depression.

 

ETA the terms you used "borderline" and "impaired" sound like the person is hovering around 70 on most IQ measures. I actually know what that looks line. Some people go the regular diploma route, but the requirements for a regular diploma are such that a regular diploma can never be achieved. The student never finds a peer group. And students leaves school, getting an attendance diploma and no vocational training. I'm baring my thoughts on what I've seen happen in my state,

Edited January 30, 2016 by Diana P.

[creekland]

I'd pick the challenging group and make sure the support was there given the situation you described.

 

It's almost always better to see how far one can go than to pick a bar and say one shouldn't go over it.

 

After graduation, except for college entrance, few will care what the GPA was, but many could care about which diploma was earned - including the student involved.

[DawnM]

Given the perimeters you set, I would pick the challenging group.  

 

If this were a homeschool coop, one day a week, I would choose the non-academic.

[Carrie12345]

I *think* I would lean toward challenging, but I don't feel confident enough to actually vote!

 

I do put my (normal intelligence, slower developing skills) in lower level groups, but I do so with the knowledge that I can change it up as needed.  Permanence freaks me out.

[mom2scouts]

I would put the child in the regular program and give as much support and encouragement as possible.

[madteaparty]

The first, no question. And the scenario you describe is why I don't do intelligence testing. I don't want to open that can of worms and I know it doesn't matter ;) the olsat result before K was enough to shake me. And it didn't matter ;)

[FO4UR]

Kids grow.  Give him a fighting chance with the challenging group.

 

His ability to face challenge and failure and try, try again will be a defining characteristic.  He will get a chance to grow that in Group A.

 

"Jenny taught me how to climb. I taught her how to dangle."   ~ Forrest Gump

[Innisfree]

I would want to consider carefully how the child handles frustration, as Diana P mentioned. I have known children with a lower IQ who were sunny, happy, and optimistic, and who could handle some frustration relatively well. I have also known children who were not actually diagnosable as impaired, but tested as low average, who had very poor skills at handling frustration.

 

I think I would consider emotional health and coping more important than academic skills, even at the expense of a traditional diploma, if those skills are currently very weak.

 

Also, is there any way to gauge how the other students would treat the child? Would she be a target, or be manipulated, or be treated kindly, or be ignored? Those variables matter.

 

What a wrenching choice.

[73349]

I'd go by personality and what the child has accomplished academically so far. In many cases, I'd pick option 2, and I'm surprised at how many wouldn't. I'd be concerned that option 1 would provoke an easily frustrated youth to drop out.

 

If the student has historically had a cheerful attitude about school and is a hard worker, then I'd choose 1. Otherwise, I'd rather have him/her complete option 2 and feel good about that entry-level job (perhaps found through a community support program) and have the life skills foundation than struggle like crazy through 1 and then if s/he completes it, still have to compete with typical learners for that same kind of low-wage job.

Edited January 30, 2016 by whitehawk

[myfunnybunch]

I faced that decision. I keep thinking I should be able to easily pick a poll choice for someone else, right? Instead, I feel overwhelmed by it, just like when we were facing it ourselves. I still wonder if we made the right decision, even though I know it was probably the option that made the most sense.

 

Tap, I believe that we are in the same state. If this student is on an IEP, he may receive education and support services until he turns 21. This has made a huge difference in the transition from school to adult support services. The family should be clear about and factor into the decision the possibility/need for continuing services with each choice.

[City Mouse]

I want to know more about each program first. The first may be more challenging academically, but not really do anything to help the student learn to life skill or how to hold down a job. i would be more inclined to ask for stronger academic goals on the iep and have the kid in the second program. It really doesn't matter if the kid can solve quadratic equations if he has to live in the parents basement because he doesn't know how to do his own laundry or cook anything but grilled cheese.

[FO4UR]

On second thought, I'd want to see each situation in person before deciding.

 

If you have an opportunity for a teacher like Mr Chris, I wouldn't even think twice. Group B.

 

 

If the Group A teacher is too new or too closed-minded or simply too strapped down by standards and testing, I'd lean towards Group B.

 

 

There are so many factors to consider.  I think I'd have to see both situations live and in person before I could make a decision.

[SproutMamaK]

For me, I would skew towards the more challenging class... but it would greatly depend on the environment in each class and how my child was likely to respond to it.

[bolt.]

For me it would really come down to the "life skills" bit, and some things on the social side (which is a life skill).

 

The intelligence level is valuable overall info, if it was definitive, it would be enough. Since its inconclusive, as the direct parent of the actual child, I would look at more details, and I would probably know the answers from my own experience...

 

1. "In the life skills that are currently age appropriate: Are they (now) successfully attained? Nearly? How much assistance was needed? If each new skill is projected to need the same approxamate amount of effort-and-help, is that 'assisted education' territory or 'try hard, I'll help' territory?"

 

2. "In peer group situations, does my child appear content with where he fits in, even when intelligence differences are discernible? Does he cope well with 'failure' (poor evaluations)? Does he have the social skills to be considered at least 'likable' by other kids (who are immature and not angels)? Is he likely to find a peer group depressing or cope-able?"

 

If s/he needs direct instruction in order to succeed in life skills, or if he was likely to be meaningfully rejected by peers, I'd go with the special program and re-evaluate every 2 years.

 

If the life skills were within reason to attain through normal dedicated parenting, and if the child was likable and expressed overall comfort with 'smarter' peers, I'd do with the normal program with assistance as needed (a generous pro-active strategy).

[Arcadia]

A neighbor's child was overfed fever or cough medicine when he was a baby which led to brain damage. He had no problems coping in a normal academic track (not honors/AP).

 

My cousin was born with down syndrome and has an aide in a inclusion classroom. The academics is not dumb down just accomodations given for him.

 

The first, no question. And the scenario you describe is why I don't do intelligence testing.

 

Sometimes iq testing is part of comprehensive testing for children with down syndrome or in the case of a neighbor drug overdose by a babysitter.

[Daria]

I teach students in this range, as well as students who are more clearly in the intellectually disabled range.  Making educational decisions for them is challenging.

 

Having said that, I can't vote on your poll.  In part, because there are so many other factors to consider.  How are his academic skills?  Does he seem to have additional developmental challenges (e.g. the abilities of a student with borderline IQ with significant working memory deficits or ADHD will be different from the abilities of a student with a borderline IQ and more even profile)?  How has he handled elementary school?  

 

The second question I have is which diagnosis does he actually have?  You say that he sits right on that line, but whoever did the testing must have made a decision.  Did they classify him as I.D. or not?  An individual with an intellectual disability is entitled to certain services as an adult that an individual with borderline intelligence is not entitled to, and sometimes that is going to play a role in deciding on services.  Good educational planning involves developing a vision for a person's adulthood and working backwards.  Knowing what kind of services he'll be eligible for changes the vision.  

 

But the biggest reason I can't vote, is that there shouldn't be 2 choices.  If he is in the U.S, and these are public schools. then federal law is very clear on that matter.  Do school districts violate the law all the time?  Yes, they do, but it's something that parents can and should fight.  

 

In my opinion, for the vast majority of students with I.D. and other significant disabilities, the way you learn "life skills" is by living life.  That is, by participating fully in a rich, chaotic, challenging environments that students without disabilities participate in.  Kids with disabilities need more opportunities to practice skills like navigating their way from place to place, or following a schedule, etc . . . and yet they are often placed in self contained environments where they get less practice.

On the other hand, some kids do need modified curriculum.  For some kids, the gen ed curriculum without modifications is just an exercise in frustration.  If this kid's team decides that that's what he needs, then there's no reason why those modifications can't be delivered in the context of a gen ed school, with resource classes (where kids work on assignments from other classes with sped support) and RTI or other support classes (where students work on basic skills they missed first time around), and possibly a modified schedule with a longer time table to graduation, and with modified tests and assignments in the classroom.  

 

Finally, I can understand that it is very hard to take a kid from a non-diploma track curriculum, and move them to a diploma track curriculum, but I don't understand why he can't try the diploma track curriculum with maximum support, and them move to a modified curriculum in the inclusive setting, before making a decision to move to the self-contained setting. What is preventing that move?

 

[SKL]

I chose a challenging situation for my challenged kid, and it has been a good decision IMO (so far).  In general, I think challenge is a better choice.

 

That said, I could understand a parent wanting the child to have one thing in life they do really well.  For my kid, she is able to feel good about her athleticism.  She isn't "the best" at anything, but at least she is "good" at some things.  If there was nothing my kid could do right in group activities, I'd be tempted to find some activity where she could shine.

[bettyandbob]

OP what happens in the district if the child manages to go through all the classes, collect credits and not pass exit exams. What kind of diploma does the child get.

What happens when the child graduates at 17, 18,19. If services end with official graduation, then there's transition to work training through age 22. And quite honestly that is a very big deal to consider.

 

The description of functioning level doesn't give me a strong idea of where this child really falls and whether a big push on academics is going to benefit him longterm. Many people in my support group push hard on the academics. I did as well through elementary school. But I've taken a hard look at my ds future. My state has limited resources. My resources are limited. I can't do what needs to be done to find job training, placement, coaching. I also can't become a full time babysitter when ds exits school because he haas nothing to do. So, it's the future for this child has led me to look at a less academic direction.

 

I can make decisions for my ds because I know him in greater detail. I think this family needs to really examine all the details closely. It may be that the more academic program makes sense for this child and future services available where you live.

[Laurie4b]

I chose challenging, too. However, that is a really hard IQ range to deal with academically, especially if they do not qualify for an IEP, which many will not because there is technically no disability unless there is another issue. However, keep in mind that it won't be one child with an IQ around 70 who is in with all kids with IQs of 100 and above. There will be kids with IQs in the higher 70s, 80s, etc. There is a continuum. So it's likely the child will fit in somewhere with peers. 

 

The bigger problem is that US schools are set up in such a way as to make academics a no-win situation for kids with IQs below the average range yet without disabilities. If there is a possibility of a vocational track, I would go with that. The problem is that when kids can't win, they tend to give up trying. 

 

Also, try to help the child get a job of some kind. Job experience is going to make a big difference, both to self-esteem and to the future. 

 

Try to get the child as much help as possible. Even if a child doesn't have a disability, often school officials are quite willing to help if state testing requirements, etc. don't tie their hands behind their backs. Depending on the state, the student may or may not be able to get a high school diploma. (I think it's ridiculous to require Algebra, for instance, for graduation when it's not needed for everyday life. Require consumer math, for heaven's sakes.)  If the parents (or friends of the parents) can afford to give the student a Kindle, that can be quite helpful. Changing the size of the font often makes reading easier for those who struggle. Many classic books such as are assigned in high school are available as audiobooks as well where the student can follow along with the text. That will often give the student a better grasp on the content. Any chance of tutoring? Sometimes there are volunteer tutors in the schools. Or put a sign up in a senior center asking for a volunteer. Former teachers may jump at the chance to contribute something meaningful.  

[RioSamba]

Based on the very limited information, I chose the challenging option. The second option seems to be closing doors.

[katilac]

It's hard to decide with so little information. And I don't see how these can be the only two choices, because public school. 

 

I'd probably wind up going with the more challenging option, but I'd have the tutoring and other supports in place from the get-go. As other posts noted, you can switch from this to the non-challenging, but not the other way around. There are many jobs that require a high school diploma, and some students are late bloomers. 

 

Now, I'm basing that on the fact that the student is strong enough to be be accepted into a more academic program, and that it is anticipated that he will live independently. If 'independently' actually means in a group home, or out of the parent's home but with lots of interventions and support throughout life, I'd think a lot harder about the non-academic program. 

 

Questions to ask and consider: 

 

How good is the non-academic program at placing students in jobs, teaching living skills, and so on? 

 

How good is the academic program at providing support to struggling students? 

 

Is there a required exit exam for the academic program? 

 

Is the social environment positive for the most part? (for both schools)

 

I would also ask the student. 

 

 

 

[Annie G]

I can't choose without knowing the kid.  While one kid might rise to the challenge of a more stimulating environment, another might just give up. What motivates one might discourage another.  A kid put in the lower academic class might shine being at the top while another might just lower the bar and settle for becoming middle of the pack.  It's too hard to say without knowing the student. 

 

And socially it's just as much of a challenge. In the higher group, would the student be included or be friendless? If put in the lower group, are the kids there suitable as friends long term?  

 

Tough decision! 

[cera2]

As someone who teaches in a program similar to B I would absolutely put my own child in program A.

[Ottakee]

Is public school an option? I have a child in that range that takes a mix of academic regular Ed and special life skills classes.

 

I would have to know the child in question to make a suggestion but a warning...if they are in the US and they get a high school diploma then their access to services is severely limited. If the get a certificate of completion then they can get services and job training until age 21-26 depending on the state. That is HUGE.

[RioSamba]

Is public school an option? I have a child in that range that takes a mix of academic regular Ed and special life skills classes.

 

I would have to know the child in question to make a suggestion but a warning...if they are in the US and they get a high school diploma then their access to services is severely limited. If the get a certificate of completion then they can get services and job training until age 21-26 depending on the state. That is HUGE.

That could really be a game changer.

[Tap]

Thank you everyone for you replies!  I will pass it all on, and hopefully it can help the parents to think the decision through enough to come to a consensus. 

 

The public school isn't a good fit for this student. The student is in a PS supported learning environment right now, where they are in the regular class part day and in a pull out class part of the day. This is the only school he can attend due to the pull out. He is going more and more to the pull out, due to the special way he gets treated there. The problem is that they give rewards, candy, soda and tons of accolades for even the smallest achievements. We are talking all.day. every.day. They can 'earn' something like 10 tangible rewards a day (not including all the high-fives and verbal encouragement every 5 minutes for normal behavior and work). They give out a constant stream of tickets for prizes, pieces of candy everyday, and full size candy bars on other days, paper awards, stickers etc.  The problem they are starting to have, is that the student doesn't want to do anything without a reward now.  Even the smallest frustration, is causing problems, because he seems to be loosing his ability to be disappointed.  He doesn't want to do anything that requires work without extensive, one-on-one help. The one-on-one help is making it so every answer is correct and his grades look great, but it isn't all his own work.  Even basic math is taking lots of verbal encouragement from the parents to get through.He is capable of doing it alone, but he is getting dependent on the constant emotional support during lessons. This is how the school pull out functions, so there isn't a way to change that, they are going to have to look into other programs instead. It isn't realistic for the school to treat him different than the other students, so the parents can't really fight for him to not be given so many rewards.   

 

The parents know that all schools do this to an extent, but the two they are looking are much more about actually earning a reward, not just handing them out for normal behavior. 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Tap

[Daria]

So option A is a private school? Is it specific to kids with disabilities? You mentioned an IEP in your first post, but those are usually only available in public or special ed schools.

 

What disability is he diagnosed with

[bettyandbob]

Thank you everyone for you replies!  I will pass it all on, and hopefully it can help the parents to think the decision through enough to come to a consensus. 

 

The public school isn't a good fit for this student. The student is in a PS supported learning environment right now, where they are in the regular class part day and in a pull out class part of the day. This is the only school he can attend due to the pull out. He is going more and more to the pull out, due to the special way he gets treated there. The problem is that they give rewards, candy, soda and tons of accolades for even the smallest achievements. We are talking all.day. every.day. They can 'earn' something like 10 tangible rewards a day (not including all the high-fives and verbal encouragement every 5 minutes for normal behavior and work). They give out a constant stream of tickets for prizes, pieces of candy everyday, and full size candy bars on other days, paper awards, stickers etc.  The problem they are starting to have, is that the student doesn't want to do anything without a reward now.  Even the smallest frustration, is causing problems, because he seems to be loosing his ability to be disappointed.  He doesn't want to do anything that requires work without extensive, one-on-one help. The one-on-one help is making it so every answer is correct and his grades look great, but it isn't all his own work.  Even basic math is taking lots of verbal encouragement from the parents to get through.He is capable of doing it alone, but he is getting dependent on the constant emotional support during lessons. This is how the school pull out functions, so there isn't a way to change that, they are going to have to look into other programs instead. It isn't realistic for the school to treat him different than the other students, so the parents can't really fight for him to not be given so many rewards.   

 

The parents know that all schools do this to an extent, but the two they are looking are much more about actually earning a reward, not just handing them out for normal behavior. 

 

 

Sounds like he has an IEP. If this were the situation I was in I would request a revision is the IEP an request a behavior management plan that includes something besides the tangible rewards he's been getting. 

[Pen]

With the 2 parents equally divided, I would let the child have some input if he or she is capable of that. If the child has a strong feeling about it, I'd give that strong weight as a tie breaker.

 

I would also try to determine if living independently seems like a likely future for this child. If it does I would tend toward option 1 (challenge situation) because it sounds like that would be the goal for that, and if not, then for the non-academic group. But I'd want to be sure that the non-academic group does not have an independent living goal, because if they do, maybe they have more experience in dealing with the problems that the child will face, rather than trying to work on academics that are not the child's forte.

 

Alternatively I would put the child in whatever between the two seemed to be the most emotionally healthy situation for the child for the 2 years of middle school and look for something that would start independent living and jobs skills training for high school.