VENT--My really uncomfortable voting experience

[chiguirre]

While I was checking in this morning at my local polling place the volunteers were publically discussing how "people who don't take care of their families" are worse than unbelievers and will be punished. Talk about not creating an inclusive and welcoming atmosphere in a civic space!

 

I was tempted to complain but that would have possibly descended into a nasty confrontation in a public school lobby while kids are in class.

 

But seriously, if you cannot welcome every voter without sounding off about the assumed moral worth of a large chunk of the population, do not volunteer to serve the entire electorate. It is not okay to create a hostile environment for every random non-Christian who goes to vote.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[katilac]

You can still make a complaint; there are rules for how voting precincts are supposed to be run. 

 

Call your local government to find out where to file a complaint, or google something like "complain about voting precinct MY TOWN" and you should get some hits. 

[creekland]

Wow!  We always just catch up on life with the precinct workers where I live since we tend to see most of them just twice per year - the typical "how are the kids doing, etc."  (I had their kids in school.)

 

I like that much better.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would assume that volunteers expect to have free speech when talking amongst themselves.  Now if they were talking amongst themselves when they should have been taking care of voters, that would be a problem.  

 

 

 

[umsami]

I would assume that volunteers expect to have free speech when talking amongst themselves.  Now if they were talking amongst themselves when they should have been taking care of voters, that would be a problem.  

 

No, not in this capacity.  They are supposed to be nonpartisan as poll workers, very professional, etc.   Talking about punishing people who don't take care of their families really does not sound like the type of speech that is OK with poll workers.  

 

OP...I would definitely let my county's supervisor of elections know.  

[Bluegoat]

I would assume that volunteers expect to have free speech when talking amongst themselves.  Now if they were talking amongst themselves when they should have been taking care of voters, that would be a problem.  

 

No.  For the same reason you aren't allowed to canvass people outside of polling stations. 

 

[Faithful_Steward]

Was this just a group of poll workers standing around chatting because they weren't needed elsewhere? That wouldn't bother me at all.

[Bluegoat]

I would report this.  It was probably not intentional and someone will just need to have a word to point out why that sort of thing is not appropriate.

[Bluegoat]

It would be considered even a little inappropriate here for voters to talk about partisan politics at the polling station.  People tend to stick to the weather if they are stuck waiting around.

[Faithful_Steward]

No.  For the same reason you aren't allowed to canvass people outside of polling stations. 

 

 

I think the DOJ lowered the bar around 2008-2010.

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, not in this capacity.  They are supposed to be nonpartisan as poll workers, very professional, etc.   Talking about punishing people who don't take care of their families really does not sound like the type of speech that is OK with poll workers.  

 

OP...I would definitely let my county's supervisor of elections know.  

 

 

No.  For the same reason you aren't allowed to canvass people outside of polling stations. 

 

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, from the OP's description that this was a conversation that she, because of proximity, eavesdropped on.  I absolutely would expect professional behavior and speech from volunteers when dealing with the job at hand.  But honestly, this kind of thing has never come up in my own experience.  Back before our area went to mail in ballots only, the volunteers were so busy in our small city that there was no time or opportunity for any chit-chat of any kind.  

[Georgiana Daniels]

What was the context of the conversation? I can see where they're talking morality and such, but I'm not seeing how this is partisan.

[chiguirre]

Was this just a group of poll workers standing around chatting because they weren't needed elsewhere? That wouldn't bother me at all.

No, they were sitting behind the desk taking IDs and having people sign the voter roll. I think it started as a personal conversation like Creekland mentioned and just strayed into not-for-public-viewing-at-a-polling-place territory. If you look at it from that angle, the damner of unbelievers probably has an unhappy life and I should probably cut them some slack.

[marbel]

It sound uncomfortable and unpleasant, and I wouldn't enjoy hearing it, but it also doesn't sound like it had anything to do with the election so I'm not sure a complaint would be found to have basis.  If there is a rule the workers are supposed to have professional demeanor, etc., then it might be different.   People talk about all sorts of things in the polling stations here.  But the real fun is getting past the gauntlet of candidate signs and people wanting to hand you flyers and "voting guides" (for their people/party) as we walk in. 

 

I sure miss Oregon's vote by mail.  :-)

[VaKim]

But if someone does not provide for his own relatives, and especially the members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (1 Timothy 5:8)  Posted this just to show that they were evidently discussing a Bible verse, and not just something they came up with on their own. Not that it is good, bad, or other. Just posted in case someone might not realize where it came from.

[Bluegoat]

I think the fundamental issue is, no one should be made to feel uncomfortable when they come to vote.  If they are homeless, religious, irreligious, obese, wealthy, illiterate, whatever.  A conversation like that could easily make someone feel a little uncomfortable.  It's not the end of the world, but being in charge of the voting procedures or practicalities is really important and needs to be done properly.

[Mergath]

Whether it's technically legal or not, it was certainly inappropriate, imo. I'd call and let the person in charge know.  

[mamiof5]

There are many topics out there that I don't necessarily want to, or care to hear about. However, if they were discussing it at the voting poll it wouldn't bother me a bit, unless they were trying to engage me in the conversation? It's OK if they are discussing topics I don't necessarily agree with, I don't always need to feel welcomed or included in a conversation. Besides, there's only so much they can discuss about the weather :) Oh, and I don't see how this could be considered partisan?

[livetoread]

As a nonbeliever, I would be tempted to say, "Worse than me? Really? Cuz I'm a nonbeliever and we are terrible, terrible people!" and then give a nice, friendly smile.

 

But I wouldn't have because I am generally non-confrontative.

[MercyA]

We were voting once in Brenham, TX. An elderly black man was having problems, and asked why there were some spots that only had one political party candidates. The 2 old hags volunteering laughed at him without explaining, then commented on his " ignorance" in overly loud whispers. A young white man glared them down, then quietly had a talk with the old man. You can bet I reported those skanky excuses for humans.

 

Good for you, Dot, and good for the young man that helped him. That makes my blood absolutely boil.  :mad:

[mamajag]

Hostile environment? Hearing an opinion different from yours constitutes a hostile environment? It's an open civic place. The Bill of Rights still applies.

 

If someone had said something to or about you personally or commented on the wellbeing or not of your kids, I'd be behind you. Not liking the conversation topics happening between volunteers for the 30 seconds you're engaged is just one of those things that should just roll off of your back. Seriously. Someone you don't know who follows a religion you don't believe thinks that nonbelievers and those who neglect children will be punished by a god you don't think exists...and somehow this is hostile?

 

I don't get it. I mean, who cares what a random stranger thinks? Who has the time to get worked up over it?

[purplejackmama]

Meh. This would not have even registered on my radar.  

[umsami]

Hostile environment? Hearing an opinion different from yours constitutes a hostile environment? It's an open civic place. The Bill of Rights still applies.

 

If someone had said something to or about you personally or commented on the wellbeing or not of your kids, I'd be behind you. Not liking the conversation topics happening between volunteers for the 30 seconds you're engaged is just one of those things that should just roll off of your back. Seriously. Someone you don't know who follows a religion you don't believe thinks that nonbelievers and those who neglect children will be punished by a god you don't think exists...and somehow this is hostile?

 

I don't get it. I mean, who cares what a random stranger thinks? Who has the time to get worked up over it?

 

Yes, it is a hostile environment.  Poll workers are not supposed to damn people or discuss religion.   Religion should not play a part at all. 

 

Saying that these people are "worse than unbelievers" is offensive and hostile to people who do not subscribe to the majority faith.

 

I like the NYC poll workers manual which says on page 10...

 

"Be Respectful

You are a professional, assisting New York City Voters! The voter is your guest. Each person who enters a Poll Site deserves your respect and courteous service. As a Poll Worker, you provide understanding, appreciation of cultural characteristics and respect for each individual. Remember that you are working for the people of America. We are all equal—regardless of party, culture, race, ethnicity, language, gender, age, disability, religion or family background. "

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My sons are precinct clerks and judges. They would not tolerate this behavior, in spite of the actual quote being from the Bible that they have been taught to revere. At the end of the day, whether political bias was being shown or not (I think we'd have to know the candidates' platforms to judge that), the people representing the law and this civic duty were condemning a faction of the population. I can't see how that's appropriate in any way.

[lllll]

nm

[HRAAB]

For years I was the Chief Judge and Registrar for my precinct. It is a paid position here with training provided. If was clearly against regulations to discuss politics during open polling hours. Although the discussion you overheard didn't cross that line, I would not have allowed it while any voters were present. It is inappropriate in a polling place. Even if it's not technically against regulations, it is not appropriate conversation in that environment. That is a conversation better suited to personal time (we took breaks throughout the day) or when no voters are present.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well that stinks. 

 

They were very friendly and welcoming where I went. 

[December]

Leave your hostile Bible verses outside the polling place, imo.

 

In other news, isn't it great to discover a new nasty thing the Bible says about unbelievers - that we are worse than those who neglect their children ? Nice.

 

The verse has it the other way around; people who neglect their children are worse than unbelievers.

[Lady Florida.]

No, not in this capacity.  They are supposed to be nonpartisan as poll workers, very professional, etc.   Talking about punishing people who don't take care of their families really does not sound like the type of speech that is OK with poll workers.  

 

OP...I would definitely let my county's supervisor of elections know.  

 

Absolutely! When I used to vote in person one of the poll workers was a retired teacher I taught with, who I knew was of the same political stripe as me. I joked with him one time and said, "I came to cancel out my father-in-law's vote". He smiled but politely told me he wasn't supposed to comment. 

 

I would definitely complain to the Supervisor of Elections. 

[Mergath]

Hostile environment? Hearing an opinion different from yours constitutes a hostile environment? It's an open civic place. The Bill of Rights still applies.

 

If someone had said something to or about you personally or commented on the wellbeing or not of your kids, I'd be behind you. Not liking the conversation topics happening between volunteers for the 30 seconds you're engaged is just one of those things that should just roll off of your back. Seriously. Someone you don't know who follows a religion you don't believe thinks that nonbelievers and those who neglect children will be punished by a god you don't think exists...and somehow this is hostile?

 

I don't get it. I mean, who cares what a random stranger thinks? Who has the time to get worked up over it?

 

Just because you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you SHOULD.  I could volunteer at my local poll and sit there saying that I believe <insert specific class of people here> are ignorant morons who are going to end up reincarnated as sea slugs. I mean, there's nothing to legally prevent me from doing that. But I wouldn't, because I'm not a complete douche canoe, and yes, loudly insulting entire groups of people in a public place (especially at the polls where people are just trying to do their civic duty and get on with their lives) makes said place hostile. 

[poppy]

Complain to your town clerk.  Those positions are typically paid and somewhat sought after, at least around here.  I don't think the ladies need to be fired, but, they need to be better educated about their position and responsibilities.

[Lady Florida.]

 Really ? So it's saying that people who neglect their children are so bad, they are even worse than unbelievers aka lower than the low absent neglect. I feel so much better.

 

Either way you spin it, it's not appropriate for a polling place. Maybe if Jesus said something about the beauty of a democratic voting system, that verse could be appropriate for poll workers to mull over in public right next to voters.

 

Well, he did supposedly say something about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's, so I think that could be stretched to apply in this situation. IOW, if you work at a polling place whether you're paid or a volunteer, keep your opinions and beliefs to yourself. 

[Daria]

I would assume that volunteers expect to have free speech when talking amongst themselves.  Now if they were talking amongst themselves when they should have been taking care of voters, that would be a problem.  

 

In our state there are paid election judges, and there are teenage school kids who volunteer.  

 

You don't have "free speech" when you are working at a job.  Your employer absolutely has the right to tell you what you may nor may not say.  For example, if you work at McDonalds, you can not tell the customers that their order will make the even fatter.  If you are a teacher, you can not tell your students that 3 + 3 = 7.  These are fireable offenses.  If you are an election judge, the law should say that you can not engage in speech that creates a hostile environment for voters.  

[bolt.]

On topic: I'm angry for you that you were made uncomfortable. If it's not already against regulations to talk religion and 'punishment' during idle chit-chat for volunteers, it should be. Raise a good stink.

 

As a nonbeliever, I would be tempted to say, "Worse than me? Really? Cuz I'm a nonbeliever and we are terrible, terrible people!" and then give a nice, friendly smile.

But I wouldn't have because I am generally non-confrontative.

 

Off topic:

 

This problem exactly why the verse is in the Bible. It's urging "believers" (those who chose Christianity) to at-very-least-pretty-please observe the morality of their surrounding culture as a minimum standard. Since the surrounding culture of Ephesus in the time of Timothy was such that 'not taking care of your family' (elderly relatives and various extended relationships) was considered terribly dishonorable... they (the ones who didn't believe in Jesus) *weren't* neglecting them. The Christians, apparently *were* neglecting them.

 

The substance of the quote is for the Christians to take those who weren't choosing faith in Christ as *good examples* of moral conduct, and stop using their religion as an excuse to be selfish and lazy towards their extended family.

 

Also, it's not about children. It's about the elderly.

[MercyA]

Off topic:

 

This problem exactly why the verse is in the Bible. It's urging "believers" (those who chose Christianity) to at-very-least-pretty-please observe the morality of their surrounding culture as a minimum standard. Since the surrounding culture of Ephesus in the time of Timothy was such that 'not taking care of your family' (elderly relatives and various extended relationships) was considered terribly dishonorable... they (the ones who didn't believe in Jesus) *weren't* neglecting them. The Christians, apparently *were* neglecting them.

 

The substance of the quote is for the Christians to take those who weren't choosing faith in Christ as *good examples* of moral conduct, and stop using their religion as an excuse to be selfish and lazy towards their extended family.

 

Also, it's not about children. It's about the elderly.

 

Exactly.

 

For context: "...if any widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to practice piety in regard to their own family and to make some return to their parents; for this is acceptable in the sight of God...But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

 

Christians who did not provide for their elderly relatives were rebuked for not following the standards of care that most unbelievers did follow in that culture.

[Pam in CT]

...

You don't have "free speech" when you are working at a job.  Your employer absolutely has the right to tell you what you may nor may not say.  For example, if you work at McDonalds, you can not tell the customers that their order will make the even fatter.  If you are a teacher, you can not tell your students that 3 + 3 = 7.  These are fireable offenses.  If you are an election judge, the law should say that you can not engage in speech that creates a hostile environment for voters.  

This, generally.

 

And a polling place, specifically, it is absolutely NOT a free speech zone.  There are both legal rules for the workers (in CT: no stickers/buttons/colors signifying partisan or candidate support, no talking about partisan or candidate support, no talking about political policies or issues) and also professional norms aimed at ensuring a hospitable environment which encourages all eligible voters to exercise their rights.  

 

Whether or not the comments breached the law, they were as inappropriate as would be poll workers who were audibly trash-talking homeschooling or handicapped ramps or recycling or climate change as voters were signed in.  

 

Frankly, they shouldn't be chatting audibly as voters come through.  They should suspend the chat and do their job.

[VaKim]

Well, he did supposedly say something about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's, so I think that could be stretched to apply in this situation. IOW, if you work at a polling place whether you're paid or a volunteer, keep your opinions and beliefs to yourself. 

Well, that would be kind of hard here, as the polling place is actually a local church. Even if they didn't say anything, it is all over the walls of the building, lol.

[Lady Florida.]

Well, that would be kind of hard here, as the polling place is actually a local church. Even if they didn't say anything, it is all over the walls of the building, lol.

 

People who work at church polling locations don't necessarily belong to that church. Besides, it's one thing to hold an election at a church (which I'm against but I know some communities have limited facilities) where there are indications of the religion throughout the building. It's an entirely different thing for the people working the polling place to loudly discuss their beliefs in the presence of voters.

[Bluegoat]

Well, that would be kind of hard here, as the polling place is actually a local church. Even if they didn't say anything, it is all over the walls of the building, lol.

 

My polling station was once in a disused Orange Lodge.  That was a weird place.

[marbel]

People who work at church polling locations don't necessarily belong to that church. Besides, it's one thing to hold an election at a church (which I'm against but I know some communities have limited facilities) where there are indications of the religion throughout the building. It's an entirely different thing for the people working the polling place to loudly discuss their beliefs in the presence of voters.

 

Curious (not snarky) - why?  What difference does it make if the election is held in a church, synagogue, mosque... as opposed to a community center, firehouse, public school... ?

 

ETA: I assume your objection to churches extends to other places of worship but maybe that is not correct.

[unsinkable]

Just got back from voting.

 

A lady had 4 dachshunds inside the the polling place with her while she voted.

 

Weird stuff.

[Lady Florida.]

Curious (not snarky) - why?  What difference does it make if the election is held in a church, synagogue, mosque... as opposed to a community center, firehouse, public school... ?

 

ETA: I assume your objection to churches extends to other places of worship but maybe that is not correct.

 

Yes, that's my objection. I don't think government activities should be held in churches or any kind of place of worship or religious building. I think they should be in public government buildings such as schools, fire houses, public libraries, etc. I do know that some communities don't have this option.

[purplejackmama]

Yes, that's my objection. I don't think government activities should be held in churches or any kind of place of worship or religious building. I think they should be in public government buildings such as schools, fire houses, public libraries, etc. I do know that some communities don't have this option.

Every single voting precinct in my community is held in a religious building. The majority are churches but some are in mosques and synagogues.

[Catwoman]

Yes, that's my objection. I don't think government activities should be held in churches or any kind of place of worship or religious building. I think they should be in public government buildings such as schools, fire houses, public libraries, etc. I do know that some communities don't have this option.

This is news to me. I had no idea that religious buildings were used as polling places. In our area, they use the type of buildings you mentioned -- schools, libraries, fire houses, and other government buildings.

[Daria]

How do they use fire stations for polls?  Don't the people get in the way if the firemen need to leave in a hurry?

 

Here they use public elementary schools, community centers, churches, synagogues, libraries, the community rooms in apartment complexes, but not firehouses. 

[Tenaj]

How do they use fire stations for polls?  Don't the people get in the way if the firemen need to leave in a hurry?

 

Here they use public elementary schools, community centers, churches, synagogues, libraries, the community rooms in apartment complexes, but not firehouses. 

 

We vote at the firehouse.  There is a multipurpose room on one end that is used for the polling place.  Doesn't interfere with the fire services at all and uses a separate parking lot/driveway on the other side of the building from the fire trucks.

 

They quit using the schools around here (at least in our immediate area) due to security issues.

[Daria]

We vote at the firehouse.  There is a multipurpose room on one end that is used for the polling place.  Doesn't interfere with the fire services at all and uses a separate parking lot/driveway on the other side of the building from the fire trucks.

 

They quit using the schools around here (at least in our immediate area) due to security issues.

 

Around here, election day, if there's a big election like mayor or congress or president, is always a public school holiday.  

[Catwoman]

How do they use fire stations for polls? Don't the people get in the way if the firemen need to leave in a hurry?

 

Here they use public elementary schools, community centers, churches, synagogues, libraries, the community rooms in apartment complexes, but not firehouses.

The firehouses have separate meeting rooms and large parking lots, so no one is in the way of the firemen or the fire trucks. :)

[Bluegoat]

We vote in all these kinds of places.  It depends on what is available for the most part - they try and have stations within walking distance of almost everyone's homes, so in a lot of residential areas there are limited choices.  My local polling station here is usually in a church which is a block away, but the advance poll is at the community center which is probably a ten minute walk.