Do I respect privacy or intervene?

[melmichigan]

Thank you for the helpful comments. The current plan is in post #29.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know that I'd clean the house while she is gone.  The shock might be too much.  Is it possible to hire someone who specializes in this sort of thing?  That's what I'd do if possible.

 

 

[Catwoman]

If you don't intervene, someone else will, because those vermin are eventually going to be reported to the health department by her neighbors. Also, the house is a fire hazard so someone could report that, as well.

 

Obviously, she needs psychological help very badly, but if the house is physically unsafe for her to live in, I think something has to be done. But I wouldn't want to see the poor woman come back home to see all of her "stuff" missing, as it could be devastating for her.

 

I wish I knew how to suggest you handle it. :grouphug:

 

Has she ever seen a mental health professional about it? Is there anyone in her area that specializes in dealing with hoarders?

[Susan in TN]

I think you and/or a cleaning company need to get this taken care of right now, though I wonder if it would be legal. Does your FIL own the house as well? Her safety is more important than her happiness.

[Anne in CA]

If the floors are buckling and there is vermin she cannot go home to the house when she is done. 

 

She is not going to be happy no matter what you do, so I would err on the side of her health. I would get a social worker to come to the house as is and get legal power to make decisions for your MIL, if at all possible. If that is not possible, I would clean up the house and take her wrath when she sees it. There is nothing to be gained by leaving it as it is, and if you clean it up at least you will feel you did something.

 

My mother was a hoarder, and has moved her anxiety to other areas. But I can still remember throwing away a phone bill that was two years old and the horrible screaming melt down that she had. When she was at work I mercilessly removed trash and burned it (we lived in the country) so there was no evidence. I never had friends home during my high school years except in the middle of the summer when I had had time to clean things up good enough. 

 

I feel for your dh, because I felt that trash was more important to my mother than I was, and it was very hurtful. As an adult I understand that her anxiety had nothing to do with me, but that doesn't stop the hurt that already happened.

 

 

[mom2scouts]

She needs help, but it won't be easy.  We just had a local story where a hoarder's house caught on fire and he couldn't be saved because the firefighters couldn't get into the house.  All the windows were blocked with stuff.  This is a life safety issue, a health issue, and a mental health issue.  Honestly, I would work on the obvious trash while she's gone and then get someone experienced to help her with the rest.

 

 

[fraidycat]

While she is away staying wherever she is, is it possible for her to get started on counseling there?

 

Perhaps get the authorities involved. If the floors are buckling, the house could be deemed unsafe/unfit for habitation and need to be cleaned/repaired before she is allowed back in. It will stress her, but something needs to be done.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

:( such a tough situation. :grouphug:

[73349]

I vote for intervening here, as she is otherwise in real danger. Could you call the county social services dept. and see what they suggest?

[Jean in Newcastle]

You need to intervene but as others have said the intervention must include mental health support for her.  I would start by calling her doctor and telling the doctor exactly what you found.  

[livetoread]

Such a tough situation. I would consider talking to the current facility she is at. Hopefully they have a social worker assigned to discharge and s/he can intervene. They won't want to release her to an unsafe environment. It actually might be easier now that she is already out of the house and others are involved with her care. They just need to know. I would start there anyway. If it is as bad as you say, it can't be ignored.

[Joanne]

Intervention. She is

Unwell and needs help. This is not a MYOB situation; she is mentally unhealthy as well.

[Slipper]

I would also suggest taking pictures since you are allowed inside of the house. In this case a picture is truly worth a thousand words. And then I would start with her doctor and ask for help. 

[Jenrae]

I would certainly try to do an intervention. Call a psychologist and get them involved. I would not try to throw all of it away on my own. She needs help and unless she is legally incompetent, and you are willing to pursue that and care for her,she will just hoard again given the opportunity. If it was my mother, I would intervene with a psychologist and see if the "threat" of losing her home and autonomy would move her to let the psychologist and you help her clean up.

 

I just watched an episode of the show call Hoarders a few weeks ago. A woman was takent to court by her sister and the judge was going to take her child away unless she cleaned up the mess. It motivated the mother to use the help from the psychologist. He was able to help her see that a personal assault she experience had caused her to do this. She was fearful of another intruder, so she had stacked things against all the windows and doorways to protect herself. She wasn't even aware of her own feelings until all the anxiety came upon removing all the stuff from windows and the the doorways.

[zoobie]

Is she married to FIL? Who has the legal right to intervene on her behalf? You can't let her return to an unsafe home, and whomever is legally responsible for her needs to be involved.

[unsinkable]

(((Melissa)))

 

I am so sorry. It is so dangerous for her to live like that I say intervene.

[brehon]

Intervention with appropriate mental health supports and lots of documentation (photos & video) of the house and any outbuildings.

 

I'd take the photos/video then start with either her doctor or hospital social worker.

[trulycrabby]

I agree with the others. Personal safety trumps privacy in this suruation. I am so sorry! :grouphug:

[clementine]

If this was my MIL, I think I'd start boxing up anything salvageable and close the box and stack it in the garage (if there is one).  A wall or two of stackable boxes - even if filled with junk (not trash) - is neater than having it strewn all over the place.  

 

That way, when she comes home, you can say "We didn't throw your things away, but they are boxed up in the garage (or basement) for you."  

 

Although, if a therapist doesn't intervene, she'll probably just start again from scratch.

 

Anytime we go to my MIL's house, she'll say "Oh, I don't use this coffee pot (iron, vacuum, vase, jewelry box, etc.) anymore.  Would you like it?"  I always say yes and if I don't need it, I bring it to goodwill the next time I go.    

[Word Nerd]

Intervention with appropriate mental health supports and lots of documentation (photos & video) of the house and any outbuildings.

 

I'd take the photos/video then start with either her doctor or hospital social worker.

That would be hard to handle, but I think this is what I would do.

 

:grouphug:

[melmichigan]

:)

[Harriet Vane]

Intervention.

 

She needs help. She will be unhappy no matter what you do, so do what will keep her safe.

 

Take pictures.

 

Get a social worker involved.

 

Get a therapist.

 

:grouphug:

[Seasider]

You need to intervene but as others have said the intervention must include mental health support for her.  I would start by calling her doctor and telling the doctor exactly what you found.  

 

 

I agree completely. If you [eta not addressing the OP but other responders] do not know someone with this issue, then you cannot truly understand why "just clean it up while she's gone" is not an acceptable answer in and of itself. If she is currently under institutional care, especially long term for some physical rehab), there should be a social worker assigned to her to help manage transitions. This is person you want to contact. If she was not assigned someone, ask the hospital/rehab facility if they can assign one. Another option is the elder care services of your city or county.

[Orthodox6]

BTDT.

 

A very good possibility is that she has OCD, for which "hoarder" is a sub-type.  This was my mother.  I always thought that she was reacting to the supreme poverty of her youth and adolescence.  Decades later, when I was diagnosed with OCD-or-Asperger's (probably both, despite the overlaps), and one son was diagnosed with Asperger's, I recognized that this was my mother's never-diagnosed difficulty. 

 

Negative criticism -- (and I am not saying that you do this) -- won't change anything.  Assistance from a good adult psychiatrist (for diagnosis and, if appropriate, medication) and therapy (perhaps CBT?) can effect wonders. 

 

Evaluation cannot be forced unless you can demonstrate that she is a danger to herself and/or other people.  Photograph as much as you can.  Too bad there is no way to record odors.  Don't remove things/stuff until after she has an evaluation, because the absence of these things directly undercuts your case (leaving you in an unsupported position of claims). 

 

Before she returns home, consult your local MHMR for guidance. (In my state MHMR stands for "mental health mental retardation".  Maybe called something else in other states.)

 

You are immediate family.  Yes, I vote for intervention. 

 

:grouphug:

[elegantlion]

I would find a third party as mediator, social worker, counselor, therapist, someone for your own (and your dh's) emotional sanity.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: Yes, I would intervene and realize it will probably change your relationship with her. 

[zoobie]

**deleted quote--sorry!**

Is she mentally competent? Has she assigned power of attorney or signed healthcare PoA? If she's still married, FIL would be the default. I would get paperwork in order before tackling anything. She's going to be super uncooperative after you broach the house issue, so I'd get the legal stuff lined up first. An attorney specializing in elder law will be helpful.

[Saddlemomma]

I haven't read the other replies, but here's my humble advice:

 

You're DH is in an extremely delicate position.  First, his mother cannot stay in that house.  It's not healthy or safe, especially since she's had surgery.  That being said, it is extremely mentally traumatic for a hoarder to have someone go in and "violate" their possessions by removing them. Those possessions have a life of their own to the hoarder.  Removing possessions is akin to mental rape for them (not meaning to lessen the impact or trauma of rape in any way).

 

Your best bet is to try to keep your MIL away from the house.  Can she be moved to a nursing home?  Ideally, someone else (not a family member), or an anonymous tipster will report the conditions of the house to the health department.  In the meantime, contacting mental health professionals specializing in OCD and hoarding issues can help your MIL cope and begin to deal with these issues. 

 

While this will still be a traumatic period for your MIL, by having others intervene, you and your DH can be seen as supporters trying to help her get through the turmoil rather than adversaries. 

[Laurie4b]

I think because the situation is unsafe (buckling floors, vermin, fire hazard) that you can contact the elder care social worker at your local CPS. (They are usually housed together) and ask what to do. You may also have to have her declared unfit (and she is given what you describe.) So sorry you are having to deal with this. :grouphug:

[melmichigan]

please do not quote

 

I called FIL and updated him on the situation at the house.  He said he will have to think about it.  :willy_nilly:

 

I think I will wait and on Monday I will call and ask FIL if she has a social worker assigned to her case.  I know she has had a home nurse coming in, so I assume there is a social worker that we might be able to approach.  I'm not sure how much her being out of state impacts this.  DH is extremely hesitant to call any mental health services (these are people she works with regularly).  I am debating stopping by the fire house and making them aware that there is a safety hazard in case they are called out there for any reason.  We haven't seen a blight notice come in yet, but it's just a matter of time, she got them regularly last year.  In the meantime we will try to address the vermin to what extent is possible under the circumstances. 

 

I am very aware of the mental impact this will have, which is a big part of the equation. I'm hoping FIL will be willing to step up, otherwise this will get very complicated very quickly.

[mommymonster]

Melmich, I'm sorry, this is a tough situation. My DH and I have a rule for dealing with family members, which is probably a good indication we're dealing with this quite a bit lately. The rule is that if there is a choice that is either popular or safe, we err on the side of basic safety. If your MIL is recovering from a surgery of pretty much any sort, it's not going to be safe for her to be in that house. Can she transition to something like an adult foster home, or apartment. Also, if you talk to her current physicians about her living space, they may be able to help with other options. 

 

I'm going to guess your MIL lives in Michigan somewhere and is over 65. If these assumptions are correct, I would start with your Commission on Aging. Here is a link to a Michigan services locator: http://www.michigan.gov/osa/1,4635,7-234-64081---,00.html Otherwise, you can also google your county name and "Commission on Aging." See what they can do to help. They might talk about guardianship/conservatorship. 

 

If you can't find help with the Commission on Aging, I would try Community Mental Health or her county's local Public Health organization. If the house is in danger of falling down around her, you can call the building inspector to see if the house can be condemned? I would just call what can be done about it. You don't *have* to give her address -- I've found that a number of state employees are willing to play "I have a hypothetical situation..."

 

Also, this Michigan hoarder website has mental health professionals: http://hoardingcleanup.com/michigan

[Susan in TN]

(((Melissa)))

[Tanaqui]

You are going to need to intervene, as these conditions are hazardous.

 

However, if you just swoop in and throw everything out and tidy it up while she's away, you may exacerbate the problem. For a hoarder, losing their possessions is very stressful, and they may react by hoarding even more fiercely as soon as you're done, like the person who's put on a strict medical diet who immediately loads up on cake as soon as the doctors say they're down to a normal weight. If they're not part of the process and it's just "done to them", you haven't fixed anything, you've just put a dirty bandaid on the situation.

 

I bet that's what you want to do. Been there, done that, have spent more of my life bagging things up and throwing them out than I care to contemplate. But unless you get the buy-in from them, it just doesn't work long-term.

 

Most definitely you should try to speak to an expert on the subject of hoarding. Other people have given you some resources. The experts will have a better idea of the steps you can and should take. I would *strongly* suggest doing this *before* calling a more generic service for mental health issues or for house inspections or the like. Although awareness of hoarding is increasing, it's still not very good among the general public, and people who are not very educated on those specific issues do tend to push "shovel it all out" as the solution. It's not. Speak first with an expert on *hoarding*.

[brehon]

MelMichigan, please be prepared for your FIL to decide to do nothing or next to nothing. This isn't a dig against him at all. It is extremely usual for the family members closest to the affected person to rationalize any numbers of reasons of why "it" (whatever their spouse, parent is dealing with) isn't really *that* bad; is bad, but not bad enough to warrant calling someone or otherwise intervening; they don't want to hurt their lived one/deal with the anger; would be too humiliating for them and/or their loved one; etc. Your dh's reaction is in this same vein.

 

There's no doubt; it is hard to deal with these types of issues under the best of circumstances. It is unbelievably harder when other family members either can't/won't see the extent of the problem or are unwilling for myriad reasons to do what needs to be done for the affected family member's health and safety.

 

My one piece of advice is to document now the vermin, rotting flooring, fire hazards, etc. That way you have it should you need it. I've walked this road as have others here. Many hugs to you and your dh as you navigate these waters.

[melmichigan]

MelMichigan, please be prepared for your FIL to decide to do nothing or next to nothing. This isn't a dig against him at all. It is extremely usual for the family members closest to the affected person to rationalize any numbers of reasons of why "it" (whatever their spouse, parent is dealing with) isn't really *that* bad; is bad, but not bad enough to warrant calling someone or otherwise intervening; they don't want to hurt their lived one/deal with the anger; would be too humiliating for them and/or their loved one; etc. Your dh's reaction is in this same vein.

 

There's no doubt; it is hard to deal with these types of issues under the best of circumstances. It is unbelievably harder when other family members either can't/won't see the extent of the problem or are unwilling for myriad reasons to do what needs to be done for the affected family member's health and safety.

 

My one piece of advice is to document now the vermin, rotting flooring, fire hazards, etc. That way you have it should you need it. I've walked this road as have others here. Many hugs to you and your dh as you navigate these waters.

This is my biggest concern, that he will do nothing.  He hasn't stepped in to this point, which makes me beyond angry after being in the house.   :cursing: I'm doing my best to check my anger because it won't help the situation.  

 

 

[*Lulu*]

Honestly, there are times when the best thing family can do is bring outside resources to bear. This really sounds like one of those times. Even if it means an "anonymous" call to the social worker on her case tipping them to the need for a home check before MIL moves back in, you may get more results that way than by trying to break the familial system of dysfunction around MIL's mental health issues.

[*Lulu*]

This is my biggest concern, that he will do nothing. He hasn't stepped in to this point, which makes me beyond angry after being in the house. :cursing: I'm doing my best to check my anger because it won't help the situation.

Having moved a hoarder to a new home and cleaned out the old home only to watch them turn the new place into a replica of the old..... While grown children sit by and do nothing because they don't want to upset mom.....

 

It is okay to be angry. It is okay to be frustrated with all the competent adults surrounding the situation but unwilling to make waves.

 

It is also wise to realize that smacking them upside the back of the head and yelling, "snap out of it", is unlikely to yield positive results.

[zoobie]

Is it time for an assisted living type residence? That would be more difficult to clutter up, especially if she's unable to drive and has restricted finances. My grandmother's sister's kids had to do that with their mom. She had a cash allowance but no credit cards (QVC addict back before Amazon delivered everything under the sun). They had to take away her car because she was going blind and still drove after she lost her license. I only know bits and pieces from my grandmother venting.

[luuknam]

I would be hesitant to clean up vermin droppings etc without protective gear. They can contain hanta virus, which you can get from inhaling particles while you sweep or w/e. Just wanted to throw that out there - the others have already said a bunch of useful things.

[melmichigan]

.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Good for your FIL in trying to help and setting boundaries.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[prairiewindmomma]

It is a really positive thing that FIL is willing to step out of the dysfunction.  (((Hugs)))

[Seasider]

It is a really positive thing that FIL is willing to step out of the dysfunction. (((Hugs)))

Yes. I can only imagine how difficult this is for your husband. But I do believe that she must experience the consequences of her choices (with professional help) before she can make forward progress.

 

FWIW, I'm not at all surprised by her reneging on the initial agreement. I think that's par for the course. I agree that it's positive that your FIL is holding course.