Need to rant......post office......passport......

[flopsymopsy]

Today I took my 18 year old son to the post office to obtain a passport for a mission trip he will be going on this summer. The lady we had the appointment with was filling out his paperwork and noticed he listed "homeschool" on his application. He needed 2 picture ids and he used his drivers liscense and his community college id(he takes dual credit courses there). She wanted to know why he has a college id if he is homeschooled. He responded that he is homeschooled but also takes dual creditclasses at the local college. She had him change the answer on the form to the college name instead of homeschool...........It irritated me but....fine....whatever...... So then he had to sign the application which he does and she says it can not be print, it has to be a signature. He said, that is my signature. She argues and says it needs to be in cursive or it may be denied. My son went to therapy for fine motor issues, we worked on handwriting, his signature is totally legible but in print and that is how he signs everything. Cursive handwriting was not something we focused on due to his fine motor issues. The goal had been legible writing(which happens to be print) His liscense, student ids, his checks etc....are all signed in totally legible print and it has never been questioned. Of course I do not share all this with the lady but I was really irritated now. So she grabs a separate piece of paper to have him practice his signature. At this point i got up from the waiting area(2 feet from where he was sitting) because I knew he probably had no idea how to write his name in cursive. I wrote his name on the paper, he then wrote it on the application and I commented to the lady that this seemed more like a fake signature because this is not how he signs documents. She said that this is what they required on the application. My son is very non confrontational so I closed my mouth but, my husband travels, he has a passport. Guess what???? His "signature" is also print. He has always written his signature as print. He is 45 years old and it has never been an issue? So was this lady being difficult or is a cursive signature truly the only acceptable means to sign at certain times??

Thanks for letting me vent!

[MEmama]

Eh, it's not her fault. She's probably seen applications retuned for many petty reasons and is trying to avoid a headache.

 

Knowing how to sign something is a life skill. Doesn't have to be legible cursive but it shouldn't look like print, either. I get comments on mine because it looks like a doctor's scrawl, but it's consistent and nearly impossible for someone to forge. I'm more surprised its never come up for him, but you are right that it's important that all his official documents match pretty well.

 

We got the raised eyebrows at declaring "homeschooled" recently, too. Whatevs.

[JonesinIndiana]

I feel for you. A signature should be a signature. It will be interesting to see how the signature issue evolves since some public schools aren't teaching cursive.

 

My own passport/license branch story was when DH and I were applying and it 45 minutes before closing. The clerk called DH over and said she didn't have enough time to process his application and besides that, he was ineligible to get a US passport because his BC said he was born in Nigeria! Uhhhh, that was NIAGARA County, NY, not Nigeria! We've had quite a few laughs thru the years when we tell that story.

[fairfarmhand]

Can he learn to sort of connect his print letters so they look like a quasi cursive? I know it's silly, but you never know.

[SKL]

She should have looked up the rules.

 

I have no idea whether that is a rule or not.

[SKL]

Oh, and what if you always sign your signature without including all the letters?  I've seen signatures be refused for that, even though this his how that person has been signing documents for decades.

 

I do go with the flow though, because I don't have time to fight about it.

[Jann in TX]

Not unusual for government forms to be denied because of printed signature...

 

When I took one of my teacher certification tests we had to copy a security sentence onto our test form in cursive (print would null the test!)...

 

They prefer a squiggle to print...

 

When my oldest daugther was applying for a drivers license they asked her for her middle name-- at lest she knew it-- then they had her write her full name and then she asked OUT LOUD-- "Mom- how do you make a cursive M"...

 

 

[luuknam]

Signatures don't have to be in cursive, nor be legible (nor does it have to be your full name... mine is my middle initial and my last name). Mine is not in cursive (but certainly not print either), nor is it legible. I'm not sure how to describe it. Kind of like a triangle wave... I haven't had anybody complain about it. I have had people complain about my previous signature (before I got married), which was first initial, middle initial, and last name, in cursive (with a little bit of flair). That one was legible, and the people complaining were saying it had to be my full name. I just told them that wasn't true, and they backed off. Americans are weird (never had a complaint about my signature in The Netherlands).

[hornblower]

Black's Law Dictionary

 

"A signature may be written by hand, printed, stamped, typewritten, engraved, photographed, or cut from one instrument and attached to another, and a signature lithographed on an instrument by a party is sufficient for the purpose of signing it, it being immaterial with what kind of instrument a signature is made. ... whatever mark, symbol, or device one may choose to employ as a representative of himself is sufficient ... The name or mark of a person, written by that person at his or her direction. In commercial law, any name, word, or mark used with the intention to authenticate a writing constitutes a signature. UCC 1-201(39), 3-401(2). A signature is made by use of any name, including any trade or assumed name, upon an instrument, or by any word or mark used in lieu of a written signature."

https://books.google.com/books?id=bigVLBrcF7IC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=%22A+signature+may+be+written+by+hand,+printed,+stamped,+typewritten,+engraved,+photographed,+or+cut+from+one+instrument+and+attached+to+another,+and+a&source=bl&ots=Xpj7dlm3sJ&sig=NxyhQtaApNRferqbWi4z40AkdjI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OX4dVbmRMMuaNrjdgLAN&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22A%20signature%20may%20be%20written%20by%20hand%2C%20printed%2C%20stamped%2C%20typewritten%2C%20engraved%2C%20photographed%2C%20or%20cut%20from%20one%20instrument%20and%20attached%20to%20another%2C%20and%20a&f=false


I used to work for Canadian immigration & we accepted anything. Printing. Signatures in different languages/alphabets/characters. An X.  It just has to be your mark.

If this were my kids, I'd do the application again & have him sign the way he normally does.

[idnib]

I wonder what they do for people who have no arms or who are paralyzed. I'm not being snarky, I'm really wondering.

 

Well, maybe a bit snarky. I might have asked her wide-eyed and curious.

[gardenmom5]

 

then he had to sign the application which he does and she says it can not be print, it has to be a signature. He said, that is my signature. She argues and says it needs to be in cursive or it may be denied. My son went to therapy for fine motor issues, we worked on handwriting, his signature is totally legible but in print and that is how he signs everything. Cursive handwriting was not something we focused on due to his fine motor issues. The goal had been legible writing(which happens to be print) His liscense, student ids, his checks etc....are all signed in totally legible print and it has never been questioned. Of course I do not share all this with the lady but I was really irritated now. So she grabs a separate piece of paper to have him practice his signature. At this point i got up from the waiting area(2 feet from where he was sitting) because I knew he probably had no idea how to write his name in cursive. I wrote his name on the paper, he then wrote it on the application and I commented to the lady that this seemed more like a fake signature because this is not how he signs documents. She said that this is what they required on the application. My son is very non confrontational so I closed my mouth but, my husband travels, he has a passport. Guess what???? His "signature" is also print. He has always written his signature as print. He is 45 years old and it has never been an issue? So was this lady being difficult or is a cursive signature truly the only acceptable means to sign at certain times??

Thanks for letting me vent!

 

I would be sending a nice letter to her BOSS about her rigidity issues. :nopity:   (I'd also include your son's disability with handwriting - and you both felt "discriminated against" and feel she needs to attend remedial sensitivity training for dealing with those with unseen physical disabilities. - she was discriminating by telling him what he could offer wasn't good enough. (especially since she was also spouting steer poop.  er . . . against us federal regulations for permissible signatures.)  oh, and btw - wouldn't the media just have a field day with that? :toetap05:   have a nice day. :D

 

I honestly think she was being this big of a pita because you homeschool, and that she *was* judging him as incapable of cursive because you didn't teach it to him - not because there was another reason.

 

I bet if she didn't know you homeschool - she wouldn't have cared.  seriously - I've seen lots of signatures you'd be hard pressed to discern a letter - let alone entire name. 

 

I will also share a nice anecdote for your son. at a college dog and pony I attended, an admissions officer shared the story.

their university *requires* a handwritten application essay.  the point is to help them remember they are dealing with real human beings.  they received one that was absolutely indecipherable.  the student also included a word doc version so they could actually read it.  that one little extra got him admitted.

[gardenmom5]

I wonder what they do for people who have no arms or who are paralyzed. I'm not being snarky, I'm really wondering.

 

Well, maybe a bit snarky. I might have asked her wide-eyed and curious.

 

 

If I thought about it in time - I would ask her to show me the pertinent regulation in print, section, etc. . . . (works with many a bureaucrat spouting bureaucratese.)   usually will shut them up.

[gardenmom5]

Signatures don't have to be in cursive, nor be legible (nor does it have to be your full name... mine is my middle initial and my last name). Mine is not in cursive (but certainly not print either), nor is it legible.

 

there are advantages to illegible signatures . . . they are harder to fake.

[Arcadia]

We just renewed my 9 year old's passport at USPS three days ago. My husband, me and our boy just print our signature, no cursive required. We did the same when we applied his first passport five years ago at another USPS.

 

We just used his expiring passport and his birth certificate as identification. For his first passport application we only needed his birth certificate.

 

We were using the DS11 form for minors though so I don't know if they are more picky about DS82 form.

[Tap]

These type of situations, are one where asking "what are the consequences of xyz" comes in handy. I find that there are often rules that people try to enforse that have no consequences at all, or the consequence is so minor that I would rather chance it.

In this situation. I would expect them to say that it may get rejected and you would have had to apply again. As long as you had time to allow for that, you would have been fine. Otherwise you could have made the decision accordingly.

[kroe1]

DD14 was homeschooled when she got her passport last year. It was not an issue. She does sign in cursive, but no one could read it as her handwriting is atrocious. Still, it was a nonissue. She got her passport really quick, too, maybe a week or so.

[Lanny]

When she was very young, my wife was a member of the Colombian National Police. (“Policia Nacionalâ€). She was in an elite unit (“F2â€) and she was trained to be a Graphologist. When I mentioned this thread to her, her immediate reply was that one doesn't need to be a Graphologist, to know that it is obviously much harder to forge a “signature†that is written in cursive, than one that is printed. Something that is printed is far easier for forgery. That was my belief before I spoke with her, but I wanted her “professionalâ€opinion...

 

DD had lessons in Cursive Writing when she was taking 6^th grade English. I remember printing out the papers from the school, for her to submit her lessons on.

 

 

 

 

[Lanny]

DD14 was homeschooled when she got her passport last year. It was not an issue. She does sign in cursive, but no one could read it as her handwriting is atrocious. Still, it was a nonissue. She got her passport really quick, too, maybe a week or so.

 

 

That's fine. If forgery were ever an issue, it would be relatively simple for a Graphologist to determine whether it was signed by your DD or was a forgery. Not being able to read it is OK...

[Tsuga]

I get putting the college because the ID will need to match the school.

 

The signature thing is stupid. No. Such. Law. The signature is a formality... Who is checking??? They use your biodata and numbers for travel anyway. Lord.

[Kerileanne99]

Ah, bureaucracy:)

 

I think sometimes government workers get so used to following the 'rules' that it is easier to just go with it:(

 

True story:

Both my hubby and his buddy came to the U.S. from England to do postdoctoral research for a fellow Englishman. The buddy went to get his driving license at the DMV and was put through the whole thing: written test as well as driving test had to be passed.

I didn't realize he had done it, and so I called to ask what the requirements were...telling them hubby was from the U.K., and he only had to take the written portion. One day after the buddy.

Imagine our surprise later when we were discussing it:)

 

Turns out, if you say you are from England the 'book' says you need both...but if you are from the U.K, it says you only need the written portion. Nothing else matters.

Because so many people in the U S are known for their geography skillsðŸ˜ðŸ˜ðŸ˜ðŸ˜

[Lara in Colo]

I have a friend that has a strange name (it has a shape in it) and she signs it with the shape.

[gardenmom5]

Ah, bureaucracy:)

 

I think sometimes government workers get so used to following the 'rules' that it is easier to just go with it:(

 

 

not just govt.

 

I recall a story about a woman who always cut a chunk off the side of a roast before sticking it in the oven because that's how her mother did it.  her mother did it the way her mother did it.

woman finally asked grandma *why* she cut a chunk off her roast before sticking it in the oven.  "that's the way it fit in the pan."

 

[katilac]

The worker may well be wrong, but I'd cut her some slack and assume she was trying to be nice and make sure the passport didn't get kicked back. We had ours done last year, and the worker stressed again and again that things had to be JUST SO, or it would not go through. She may have actually had the experience of seeing one sent back due to printing the signature (whether that is correct or not). 

 

One of my jobs required a cursive signature on the hiring letter and all documents (many moons ago). 

[jenn-]

OP: I'm sorry you and your son were put through that.  My signature is a cursive J followed by scribble, cursive L followed by more scribble.

 

 

there are advantages to illegible signatures . . . they are harder to fake.

 

I don't find this to be true.  I can fake my dad's scrawl way better then my mom's beautifully written signature.  My stop marks are very obvious when I try to do hers. 

[Tanaqui]

Thank you, hornblower. I've been telling people that for years, but I didn't have as good a citation as that!

[mommaduck]

I worked at a job this winter where I dealt with a lot of signatures. Not everyone was American either. Canadian, Brazilian, Mexican, Russian, etc. I've seen signatures that were so many circles with a line through them and a loop. I've seen a signature be an initial and squiggle. They all qualify. As long as that THAT person's signature, it's a signature. You got someone that probably didn't like "homeschool" and tried to show you up.

 

ETA: some of the signatures were printed names. Everyone still has their own form. I've even received signatures in Arabic and other such languages.

[Tanaqui]

I worked at a job this winter where I dealt with a lot of signatures. Not everyone was American either. Canadian, Brazilian, Mexican, Russian, etc. I've seen signatures that were so many circles with a line through them and a loop. I've seen a signature be an initial and squiggle. They all qualify. As long as that THAT person's signature, it's a signature. You got someone that probably didn't like "homeschool" and tried to show you up.

 

No, this "printing isn't a signature" myth is widespread. I blame third grade teachers. They need to entice their kids to learn cursive with a minimum of whining, so they say "Cursive will let you have a grown-up signature, and you can't sign your name unless you know cursive!" and then whole generations of adults believe that story because, after all, Mrs. Gomez would never lie, would she? (Yes, yes she would.) And then new third grade teachers and parents of third graders say the same thing and really believe it, like that silly story of pool water changing color if you pee in it.

 

Then you get some obstructive bureaucrat who really believes it, just like they really believe it's illegal to go barefoot in a store (it's not, and you can write to your health department and ask), and they just mindlessly recite that rule without ever checking.

 

This sort of nonsense, btw, is why I have formulated my first postulate of life: The more you hear people say something "everybody knows", the more likely they have no idea what they're talking about. Corollary: "Common sense" is another way of saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I hope you won't find out". So often this rule has served me in good stead, and I've looked up whatever it is to find that exactly the opposite thing is true.

[Amira]

I don't use cursive for my signature, but I also don't print neatly because people seem to have a problem with that sometimes.

 

Anyway, I asked the passport-issuing person I know about this and that person said that the only thing that matters is that the signature on the passport application matches the signature on the ID. No matter what the signature looks like. That person has never had an applicant who couldn't write so they don't know the rule for that yet. :)

 

I love to see people's unique signatures. Some have a lot of flair. Mine, however, does not.

[horsellian]

When living in Nigeria my FIL had the opposite signature problem to this while trying to open a bank account - he was told his signature was not allowed to be legible.  Apparently that was just writing your name, not a signature!

[elegantlion]

Ds has a similar issue signing things. He got so nervous signing his library card several years ago, the librarian was staring at him while he did it, that he misspelled our last name. We let it go. His signature is more like printing. I will probably have him practice more as he's moving into official document territory now too. 

[school17777]

One year I helped dh's travel soccer team get their cards ready (soccer id cards for games). It was an ordeal getting the 6th grade boys to sign their name properly because they weren't taught cursive and the signature had to be in cursive. It also had to be their full name, including full middle name. It took several times for several of the boys to get it right. One boy mispelled his own name! My son wanted to write his nick name rather than the full version of his name. I wasn't prepared for how difficult it would be to get all the boys to sign their name properly. I also didn't expect the league to be such sticklers with the signatures, but it probably was a good learning experience for those boys - they no excuse to know what a signature means now!

[mommaduck]

One year I helped dh's travel soccer team get their cards ready (soccer id cards for games). It was an ordeal getting the 6th grade boys to sign their name properly because they weren't taught cursive and the signature had to be in cursive. It also had to be their full name, including full middle name. It took several times for several of the boys to get it right. One boy mispelled his own name! My son wanted to write his nick name rather than the full version of his name. I wasn't prepared for how difficult it would be to get all the boys to sign their name properly. I also didn't expect the league to be such sticklers with the signatures, but it probably was a good learning experience for those boys - they no excuse to know what a signature means know!

 

A signature is a signature. Handwriting (cursive), printed, an X, circles/lines/squiggles. As long as it's something your own. I'd be more concerned about improper grammar. FTR, my older children learned cursive in Kindergarten, but their signature is still however they choose to do it.

[MFG]

What does you son think about the incident? As a young adult he may want to think about how he will handle similar situations in the future, involving a signature or some other issue.

[gingersmom]

My son got his first passport when he was 8. I forgot to have him sign it so they asked him at security to sign. He wrote his name in print in giant capital letters. No one ever questioned it.

[Tammyla]

I feel bad for your son, that sounds uncomfortable and embarrassing.  (Our local schools have dumped cursive here btw.)