Mandylubug Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 My uncle will be removed off of life support tomorrow. It has been a wait and see for well over a week since he was found unresponsive in his home after slipping into a diabetic coma. So, while it is horribly sad, it feels like he passed away a week ago. I have called my mom daily, if not more than daily to check on her, let her know I care, etc. My dad calls me today wanting to address "the elephant in the room" and brings up me not attending two funerals in the past (well over 2 years ago) for my mom's siblings. I refused to take my kids. They didn't know these family members. IF I had childcare those times, I would have went but I didn't. If it was family that my kids knew, they would be there as well. I just didn't feel right taking them. I grew up being drug to every possible funeral in our county. When asked why I refused to take my kids I told him growing up I felt drug to too many and that I don't feel they should be at these funerals. I also stated they don't know the uncle that will be passing soon as well. They will not be there. He scolds me and says he won't tell me how to raise my kids but he thinks I am wrong in this decision :001_huh: He goes on to let me know how badly I hurt my mom those years prior, how she would kill him if she knew he was calling me but he thought I should know how hurt she was that I didn't attend those funerals and I need to be sure to make it to this funeral. What he fails to even remember is that I have attended 2 other family funerals since the 2 I missed. What also is horrible, is my DH is having shoulder surgery on friday. He will need me. I already see how this is going to go down. I predict it. Visitation will be on Friday and I will not be able to attend because we will be at the hospital having surgery. The funeral will be on Saturday, which then again I will not be able to attend because the in laws that could come and help DH have some mandatory meeting. I am at a loss. IF I go to the funeral after DH's surgery, he is left helpless or with kids that could make things worse or help. Huge variable of chance. I can't leave a 12 year old in charge of pain meds administering, etc. If I don't go to this funeral/visitation, I will yet again have hurt my mom's feelings and my dad will be sorely mad at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSmomof2 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Family stuff is so hard. Your DH's surgery is a perfectly legitimate reason not to attend this funeral if it happens to be this weekend. Your parents may be disappointed and/or mad, but you need to do what is best for your family and caring for dh after surgery takes priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 You need to separate your feelings about the past events and this funeral. You can't leave your husband the day of and immediately post op. Give up the guilt this time around. :grouphug: And your dad shouldn't be telling you how your mom feels. If you want to stop the circular conversation you need to go directly to her and talk about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Your parents should understand that you need to take care of your husband and children first. If they don't, they are being unreasonable and inconsiderate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 You need to separate your feelings about the past events and this funeral. You can't leave your husband the day of and immediately post op. Give up the guilt this time around. :grouphug: And your dad shouldn't be telling you how your mom feels. If you want to stop the circular conversation you need to go directly to her and talk about it. We have discussed it. I have been bluntly honest with her in the past. We are close. I am always 100% honest with her. So, she knows the WHY. Now, if she remembers the whys who knows. But I have always been upfront and honest with her. Dad. We clash. I usually communicate with mom. He was very verbally aggressive and I would say manipulative and abusive if I look back at it all. I closed up again today on the phone and refused to cry or lash out. Said yes sir entirely too many times. I did speak calmly and I did clearly state that my kids would yet again not be attending. So, while I did not cave into his will, I didn't let him know he offended me. DH was lividly mad once he heard what went on in the conversation but is staying out of it per my request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabella Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I don't know how fast funerals happen after a death in your part of the world, but in my experience, if someone died on a Wednesday, it's very unlikely that the funeral would be held that same week. I'd expect Monday or Tuesday the following week, so hopefully that is the case with this. I'm sorry for your family's loss though. It might make it easier if you think usually tensions run high surrounding deaths, especially for the ones closer to the departed, so perhaps don't take it to much to heart. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 We have discussed it. I have been bluntly honest with her in the past. We are close. I am always 100% honest with her. So, she knows the WHY. Now, if she remembers the whys who knows. But I have always been upfront and honest with her. Dad. We clash. I usually communicate with mom. He was very verbally aggressive and I would say manipulative and abusive if I look back at it all. I closed up again today on the phone and refused to cry or lash out. Said yes sir entirely too many times. I did speak calmly and I did clearly state that my kids would yet again not be attending. So, while I did not cave into his will, I didn't let him know he offended me. DH was lividly mad once he heard what went on in the conversation but is staying out of it per my request. You probably did exactly the right thing. If your dad is always like this, what possible good would it have done to let the conversation escalate into World War 3? You stood your ground and told him what you were going to do, and I think that's enough. He was looking for a fight, or for you to cave in to his demands, and you did neither. Good for you! :hurray: Do what is best for your dh and kids, and be very matter-of-fact about it with your parents. Above all, don't apologize or act like you are doing anything wrong. Be sure they know that your priority is to take care of your dh after his surgery and that you also need to be there to take care of the kids because your dh will be in no shape to do it for you. If they don't like it, that's unfortunate, but I think it would be pretty mean of them to be angry that you are choosing to take care of your own husband after his surgery!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I don't know how fast funerals happen after a death in your part of the world, but in my experience, if someone died on a Wednesday, it's very unlikely that the funeral would be held that same week. I'd expect Monday or Tuesday the following week, so hopefully that is the case with this. I'm sorry for your family's loss though. It might make it easier if you think usually tensions run high surrounding deaths, especially for the ones closer to the departed, so perhaps don't take it to much to heart. :grouphug: I think it varies a lot. In our family, if someone died on a Wednesday, the viewing would be on Thursday and the funeral would probably be held on Friday. The only reason it might be delayed an extra day is if relatives were flying in from a long distance and needed the extra day to make travel arrangements, or if the person passed away late on Wednesday and the funeral home needed an extra day to get everything arranged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would try to drop in to the visitation if possible, and I'd personally call (or visit) Mom (ASAP) and tell her why I couldn't come to the funeral. I would normally go to an aunt/uncle's funeral if my parents were going and it was local, even if I wasn't very close to that person. But there are extenuating circumstances, and your DH having a surgery is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think it varies a lot. In our family, if someone died on a Wednesday, the viewing would be on Thursday and the funeral would probably be held on Friday. The only reason it might be delayed an extra day is if relatives were flying in from a long distance and needed the extra day to make travel arrangements, or if the person passed away late on Wednesday and the funeral home needed an extra day to get everything arranged. Yep. Family actually flew in internationally. I expect it to happen quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would try to drop in to the visitation if possible, and I'd personally call (or visit) Mom (ASAP) and tell her why I couldn't come to the funeral. I would normally go to an aunt/uncle's funeral if my parents were going and it was local, even if I wasn't very close to that person. But there are extenuating circumstances, and your DH having a surgery is one of them. I will be there if possible. My kids will not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I agree that if your kids didn't really know this uncle, they don't need to come to the funeral. And even if they did know him, in the current circumstances, you can't be expected to drag them around between the funeral and the hospital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkTulip Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 A girlfriend told me something recently that really resonated with me: when you are growing up, your parents and siblings are your family. But once you are married (and have children), your spouse and children are your family, and your parents and siblings become your relatives. You need to put the needs of your family before the needs of your relatives. I had a similar situation last year where I did not attend DH's aunt's funeral because my 17-year-old son had recently had surgery. MIL was NOT happy with me, but I know I did the right thing by not going. Your husband is going to need your help the day of and the day after his surgery. I am sorry for the loss of your uncle, but your DH needs his wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Is there a neighbor who could come and stay Saturday for a couple hours with hubby and kids so you can at least make an appearance at the funeral service? Funerals are for the living, and it obviously would mean a LOT to your mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 It's wonderful that you are close to your mom and able to talk with her. It s so madding when one gets tangled up in conversations they wish they hadn't. I'm sorry about your dad. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would stay with DH post-op and talk to mother directly to let her know hat I am sorry; I would get together with her to comfort her outside of the funeral. She does not just grieve on the day of the funeral, but also afterwards - and at the funeral there will be plenty of other people around. I would refuse to talk to father about this and refuse to be made feeling guilty. Keeping a running tally on funeral attendance is petty. Like you, I would not drag my kids to funerals of people they don't know. ETA: If it's close and you can pop by visitation for a few minutes, I'd do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Honestly, I would probably find a way to try and make an appearance either one day or the other. Especially if it's local. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambam Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Snarky me would call my dad and explain that if he would stay with my just-out-of-surgery-husband to manage his pain meds, I'd be glad to go to the funeral. But I do think people forget, or maybe don't realize, what other people's situations are - they only see their own side. Especially in times of stress, people don't think about the situation/possible problems with other people and why they have legitimate reasons for not doing whatever. Husbands recovering from surgery trump uncle's funerals. If your mom and dad have a problem with that, tough. Hopefully once they get over the initial grief, they would agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 When my sister died, I was truly surprised at how much it meant to me for people to take the time and effort to show up at the visitation and/or service. It may not make sense, it may not be logical, but, for whatever reason, it usually offers a lot of comfort to those who are grieving. All of us have situations with our kids that we resolve to handle differently than our own parents, but we should keep in mind that there's usually a middle ground. The choices aren't limited to either dragging your kids to every funeral in the county or missing all of them except for people they know well, kwim? Attending the funerals of your mom's siblings would equal three services in well over 2 years; not excessive imo. Sometimes you attend because you know the deceased well, other times you attend because you know the survivors well. I would likely bring the kids with me on Saturday, and find someone to sit with or check in on dh if needed. Alternately, I think they are old enough to leave with dh (certainly the oldest, and you could take the 9-yr-olds with you). With same day shoulder surgery, I don't see why he couldn't handle his own meds and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Snarky me would call my dad and explain that if he would stay with my just-out-of-surgery-husband to manage his pain meds, I'd be glad to go to the funeral. She could do the same thing in a non-snarky way as well. If nothing else works out, and her dh needs someone with him at all times, maybe her dad or someone else could leave the visitation long enough for her to make an appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would try to find a trusted adult to come stay with my recovering DH and the kids while I attended the funeral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I regret the wakes and funerals I did not attend. When my mom died it surprised me how much it meant to me that people attended. Since then I attend wakes and funerals and send cards. It was said upthread...these events are for the living. I have attended services for people I've never met because someone I do know was grieving there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I do think one should attend funerals for family members if they can. Since your Dh is having surgery I think you should stay home for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 When my MIL passed, the wake, church service, and lunch afterwards were PACKED, and it meant a lot to my FIL and my hubby (and his five siblings). Less than a year later FIL passed, too, and again it was a huge event. Hubby still is in touch with some of the long-lost family friends who showed up. Everyone who came was valued and appreciated for doing so. Funerals are for the living. There has to be some way for you to make an appearance while keeping hubby safe, post-op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 How far away is the funeral? Is it drivable? Do you need to stay overnight? etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I wonder if the feeling that the kids should attend has to do with funerals often being the only place where far flung families connect. Although your kids may see their grand parents, if they went to this funeral, they'd see some other relatives too. People they'd never see otherwise. And as your parents are dealing with this loss of family, they may be hoping that the next generation will get to know the relatives from their older generation. It's a hard call with tweens and teens, though. Most of them really don't want to be dragged along to funerals. It's often upsetting for them and they may not be thinking in terms of keeping in touch with a generation that is disappearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 :grouphug: Your dh is going to need you, and I feel it's your right to place his needs above what your dad wants. In all honesty, your dad was way out of line. Love and support your mom, but don't feel pressured into doing something that goes against your marriage or what feel is in your children's best interest. I'm sorry about your uncle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 My background is that everyone in the family...from infants to the elderly go to funerals and/wakes of family and friends, if at all possible. And that the funeral and/or wake takes priority over almost any other social obligation. That is the culture I grew up in and how I raised my kids. Within that background, staying home to care for a spouse who just had surgery WOULD BE an understandable reason to not attend. But I'd also make an effort to either make food for the family (if needed) or stop by the family home before the surgery, send flowers or a donation, etc. etc. Any or all of these things to show support to the grieving. I am guessing in your situation your parents just see your non-attendance as a pattern, not an acceptable/understandable reason not to attend. It seems too complicated to be fixed with just showing up, even if you could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think the husband/surgery thing is a very valid reason not to be there for this instance. However... "I can't find a sitter" for the previous absences is less valid to me. I would have arranged to be there in the previous instances. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymonster Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 This may not be particularly on-question, but is relevant to the dynamic. My aunt died recently, and it was a shock and a blow to the entire family. My remaining three aunts were surprisingly quarrelsome with one another and lashed out at unexpected times and for things I wouldn't expect. Then I realized that it was easier for them to react in anger than to deal with the grief they were feeling. Perhaps your dad is trying to bully you because it is easier for him to react to a perceived "prior transgression" than for him to deal with the loss (or deal with your mother's loss). Anger is sometimes easier. If it were me, I would call my mom, explain about the surgery, and just let her know the situation. I would do my best to attend either the visitation or the funeral, but I'm close withy aunts and uncles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 My uncle will be removed off of life support tomorrow. It has been a wait and see for well over a week since he was found unresponsive in his home after slipping into a diabetic coma. So, while it is horribly sad, it feels like he passed away a week ago. I have called my mom daily, if not more than daily to check on her, let her know I care, etc. My dad calls me today wanting to address "the elephant in the room" and brings up me not attending two funerals in the past (well over 2 years ago) for my mom's siblings. I refused to take my kids. They didn't know these family members. IF I had childcare those times, I would have went but I didn't. If it was family that my kids knew, they would be there as well. I just didn't feel right taking them. I grew up being drug to every possible funeral in our county. When asked why I refused to take my kids I told him growing up I felt drug to too many and that I don't feel they should be at these funerals. I also stated they don't know the uncle that will be passing soon as well. They will not be there. He scolds me and says he won't tell me how to raise my kids but he thinks I am wrong in this decision :001_huh: He goes on to let me know how badly I hurt my mom those years prior, how she would kill him if she knew he was calling me but he thought I should know how hurt she was that I didn't attend those funerals and I need to be sure to make it to this funeral. What he fails to even remember is that I have attended 2 other family funerals since the 2 I missed. What also is horrible, is my DH is having shoulder surgery on friday. He will need me. I already see how this is going to go down. I predict it. Visitation will be on Friday and I will not be able to attend because we will be at the hospital having surgery. The funeral will be on Saturday, which then again I will not be able to attend because the in laws that could come and help DH have some mandatory meeting. I am at a loss. IF I go to the funeral after DH's surgery, he is left helpless or with kids that could make things worse or help. Huge variable of chance. I can't leave a 12 year old in charge of pain meds administering, etc. If I don't go to this funeral/visitation, I will yet again have hurt my mom's feelings and my dad will be sorely mad at me. Your dad is just sharing his feelings. Nothing wrong with that. You disagree, that's all. However, your husband takes precedence, and if his surgery is scheduled at that time, you can only apologize for not being able to be there to your mom. I don't know how old your kids are, but it is certainly possible to take them, but I suspect your husband won't be ready to be alone anyway. I think you need to treat funerals like a normal part of life, not shield kids as old as yours seem to be, but that's a moot point at this juncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would try to drop in to the visitation if possible, and I'd personally call (or visit) Mom (ASAP) and tell her why I couldn't come to the funeral. I would normally go to an aunt/uncle's funeral if my parents were going and it was local, even if I wasn't very close to that person. But there are extenuating circumstances, and your DH having a surgery is one of them. This is a good option. Maybe there will be visitation on two nights? That often happens here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I'd probably get someone to sit with dh so I could attend the funeral. If dh had a heart attack or something, that would be different. For this, I'd go be with my family, especially my mom. She lost her brother. This is about being there for her. The funeral is not about the dead, it's about those still with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would ignore your father's attempts at manipulation and guilt tripping. keep in touch with your mom. be there for your dh's surgery. be there for your kids. Saturday - how far? how much time? is there a competent and trustworthy ADULT who can stay with your dh and children? if not - it's a no-go no matter how much I might want to attend. do remind them of your attending ___'s and ____'s funerals. you're sorry, but this time it just doesn't work because dh is having surgery. (it's not like you're going skiing.) if you can swing it - send flowers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sorry but I disagree with you about taking kids to funerals. I'd take them and go. As others have said, funerals are not for the dead, they're for the living. I have gone to funerals of people that I didn't know, because they were loved by someone I know well. You go for the survivors who are grieving. You don't have to know the deceased, your kids don't have to know the deceased - someone you know is grieving and that is enough. You go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I above said I would try and find a way to go. I also just want to say my DH had day surgery this summer. It was scheduled very last minute (double hernia, 2 incisions). I did have to set him up to be alone day after surgery, and pretty much every day thereafter and it was fine. I had food Lined up for him, water bottle, drugs, iPad tv, extra pillows, etc. he managed his own pain mess with a notebook the entire time. It wasn't ideal but it was totally fine. I would either find a play date for my kids somewhere the day of the funeral or bring them along. I actually think it is a positive thing to get a feel for a funeral when it isn't someone kids know closely and I think your kids are old enough. YMMV of course. I think your dad sharing feelings isn't necessarily manipulation unless they have a track record of that type of behavior. You may disagree, but it does not mean your mom isn't feeling hurt and would greatly appreciate some support. I know my mom was so grateful to those that showed up when her parents and sister died. She had friends show up that didn't know them at all and she still talks about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2samlibby Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sorry but I disagree with you about taking kids to funerals. I'd take them and go. As others have said, funerals are not for the dead, they're for the living. I have gone to funerals of people that didn't know, because they were loved by someone I know well. You go for the survivors who are grieving. You don't have to know the deceased, your kids don't have to know the deceased - someone you know is grieving and that is enough. You go. I think it's sometimes easier for kids to have their first funeral experiences with someone that they aren't as close to. Makes it a little easier to process what all is going on. Your husband's surgery does throw a kink into the funeral plans and your parents, but I think you could find someone to sit with him for a few hours or set him up with food, water, and meds. I know after I had surgery, all I did for the first day or two was sleep. I think he'd be fine alone for a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I just wanted to clarify that I will be trying my best to make it to the funeral. I'm just irritated of me having to answer for my actions years later for no purpose other than stirring up guilt and manipulating me into feeling I must attend. I was already going to try my hardest to be there somehow. The sheer attitude of my Dad has just pissed me off so that it is clouding the entire week. I have enough stress of prepping my household for surgery, mourning the loss of an Uncle, stressing over this workers comp situation and upcoming financial struggles while trudging through rehab,etc. It doesn't matter now what my intentions were. To my Dad, he wins regardless of what happens. He never even asked if I was going to be there. He never even considered DHs surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteryJen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I just wanted to clarify that I will be trying my best to make it to the funeral. I'm just irritated of me having to answer for my actions years later for no purpose other than stirring up guilt and manipulating me into feeling I must attend. I was already going to try my hardest to be there somehow. The sheer attitude of my Dad has just pissed me off so that it is clouding the entire week. I have enough stress of prepping my household for surgery, mourning the loss of an Uncle, stressing over this workers comp situation and upcoming financial struggles while trudging through rehab,etc. It doesn't matter now what my intentions were. To my Dad, he wins regardless of what happens. He never even asked if I was going to be there. He never even considered DHs surgery. :grouphug: :grouphug: I am so sorry. You are under a lot of stress and your family is not helping. To me, you need to be at home with your dh. I saw the other thread about the surgery and you need to be there. This is not just about the funeral at all, but about a manipulative parent. My dad was buried several months after he died (long story) and my mother asked me when I could go (cemetery several states away, needed a flight, rental car, hotel). I gave her three dates and one weekend I absolutely could not go. She picked that one and has spent the last year hinting that if I had really cared, I would have been there. It makes me see red. Do your best. Your dh comes first. Because you are married. No other explanation is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Update: DH had his surgery and I was able to make it to the funeral as well. I only left DH for an hour, with kids there to help. I skipped grave side service, though. It seems to have satisfied my Mom and she seemed relieved I was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I'm glad it worked out. Hope your dh has a smooth recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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