Do people really not know the difference between sharing a family tradition in a secular setting and inappropriate evangelism?

[clarkacademy]

I don't see the big deal. I feel that if Muslims can stop the world to pray 5 times a day, atheists can preach God isn't real and those of Jewish faith can have menorahs then a Christian can state their thoughts as well. I can say God is real you can say he isn't and there is no disrespect on either sides.

[JudoMom]

Abstaining from speech doesn't impact on others.

 

Whatever. It's a beat up, guys. When we hear two sides to the story, it will BE a story.

 

The lesson was about sharing a tradition, not The Truth as one family/child sees it.

 

 

 

Meantime, I'll keep teaching my non-Christian kids to dial it down in mixed company. We're just polite like that.

.

 

[Wheres Toto]

I want to hear the other side.   I wonder if the assignment was really 'tell a family tradition about Christmas' and not 'tell a family tradition about your winter break/holiday' or something equally non-specific.  Maybe it's because I live/grew up in a very very diverse area (which I would assume Southern California also is??) but it would be very unusual for an entire class to have an assignment about a specific holiday's tradition around here since the assumption would be a fairly large portion of the class doesn't celebrate Christmas.

 

Although honestly, I don't see the big deal based on the article, we don't know what the teacher was thinking or worried about.  Maybe she thought the speech was going to go farther than it did and get to the point of condemning non-believers.   We just don't know.

[Word Nerd]

What a fuss. Seriously. If this is all Christians have to be up in arms over...

 

The story isn't real journalism. It tells one side of a single incident.

 

And like it or not, it's a pluralist world we live in. Common sense dictates that we be as loud and joyous about our beliefs in our homes or places of worship as we like and tone it down a little at school.

 

Is anyone seriously suggesting the child couldn't have told the Christian story of Jesus sans scripture ?

 

Jeez. Just because a right exists doesn't mean taking it to its extreme all the time.

What a fuss indeed. Reciting a Bible verse in the context given is hardly taking free speech to its extreme.

[Dad 4 Boys]

I think you are off here, Joanne.

 

It was a presentation to do with the biggest Christian holiday of the year. Students are absolutely allowed to share their religious views in school. If we want to protect kids with blue hair and kids who don't say the pledge, then we protect kids talking about this important aspect of their life.

 

Amen

[mytwomonkeys]

The teacher probably shouldn't have assigned a 'Christmas tradition' assignment at all, if she didn't intend to allow a child to share anything from the Bible.

Yes. Agreed!

[poppy]

I am guessing the kid was brought up evangelical and was making a sales pitch.  That's not OK.  She wouldn't know that, which is why it's her teacher's job to guide her. I think the parents are in the wrong here.

 

I'm amazed people think John 3:16 doesn't have anything to do with non-believers. It is pretty explicitly a message to non-believers, IMO.  A positive one, about salvation. The all welcome, all you have to do is believe is a powerful message that is fairly unusual among world religions.  One that's intended, and often used to, convert non-believers.

[WishboneDawn]

Abstaining from speech doesn't impact on others.

 

Whatever. It's a beat up, guys. When we hear two sides to the story, it will BE a story.

 

The lesson was about sharing a tradition, not The Truth as one family/child sees it.

 

 

 

Meantime, I'll keep teaching my non-Christian kids to dial it down in mixed company. We're just polite like that.

I don't think a lot of the people here are all worked up about this, they're simply discussing some of the issues around it. The FOX piece was typical FOX crap but there are still interesting implications.

 

Refraining from quoting scripture may be the polite thing to do but it still doesn't mean the girl didn't have the right to quote Christian scripture if she choose. And those who might point that out aren't making a big fuss over nothing, they're simply considering the matter with a focus that's broader then, "What is the polite thing to do?"

 

I'm quite sure that as An event in this girl's life, it's being blown way out of proportion but it's an important issue because there are times when you have to put aside being polite and exercise your rights. Especially in a school where part of the point is to be shaping responsible citizens. If the little cases aren't debated and considered, the important ones down the road may unnoticed.

 

I like disagreement on subjects like this because they help us really examine a topic. I admit I don't like dismissive posts where folks are told it's not worth the bother of discussing.

[Carrie12345]

"...if the expression is germane to the assignment."

 

It was. I think the teacher probably made two bad decisions - the assignment itself and the handling of it.  I don't know for certain without more details, but that's my impression.

 

All that said, that itty bitty little girl's parents knew what they were doing.

It's entirely possible that this classroom's show-and-tell is longer and more formal than those I'm familiar with but, at that age, s&t based on my experience would be more along the lines of "This is our family's Christmas star. It represents the star of Bethlehem that led the wise men to baby Jesus. Daddy has to hold me up real high to put it on."  Oohs and aahs. The end.

 

I know teachers can have great difficulty, especially with the littles, walking the line between expressions of religion and separation of church and state, but the assigment opened up a door that I can't imagine not expecting.

[zoobie]

I think Fox is pimping its book sales with this "news" story.

[Ellie]

Yeah, the teacher definitely didn't think that one through very well.

 

OTOH, we cannot ignore the fact that millions of people celebrate a holiday which is religious in its origins (even though it's possible to enjoy the season without feeling particularly religious about it). It just seems silly to try to pretend that nothing happens on December 25; acknowledging the fact that it exists (especially since schools are closed for Christmas; that it is called "winter break" doesn't matter--all those children know it's going to be Christmas vacation) only makes sense, especially considering the lengths public schools go to know to acknowledge other religions.

[Dmmetler]

Realistically, they have probably 25-30 kids in that class, and show and tell probably is budgeted for maybe 10-15 minutes. It's unlikely the teacher can allow each child to get up and say a minute long prepared speech. And even my upper elementary mythology students often start fidgeting during the 5 minute presentations if a child has memorized it and is just rattling through it (as opposed to dramatizing or speaking in a more conversational way-presentation skills are a major reason why I teach the class). I could see easily, based on even Fox News' account, that the natives were starting to get restless, the time was ticking before the class had to go to lunch, and that the teacher may well have been rushing ALL students through, but that only this child's parents raised a fuss, so only "My child was treated unfairly" made the news.

 

 

 

 

[Joanne]

Oh come on. I personally don't care but she seriously HAD to quote scripture to protect her right to free speech ?

 

'For us, Christmas is a celebration of when baby Jesus was born in Bethlehem. We put this star on top of the tree. It reminds us of the star that guided the wise men to visit baby Jesus.'

 

'Thank you Mary Lou. Please sit down. Nia, what does Christmas mean at your house ?'

 

 

EXACTLY. It seems to me that sharing her tradition was allowed. Even mention of Jesus and the basic Christmas story.

 

I'm sure the teacher thought it through and knew that Christmas tradition shares would include symbols of family culture, religion, and spirituality.

 

The fact that this story doesn't appear on mainstream news sites in my google search is also, IMO, telling.

[Joanne]

OTOH, we cannot ignore the fact that millions of people celebrate a holiday which is religious in its origins (even though it's possible to enjoy the season without feeling particularly religious about it). It just seems silly to try to pretend that nothing happens on December 25; acknowledging the fact that it exists (especially since schools are closed for Christmas; that it is called "winter break" doesn't matter--all those children know it's going to be Christmas vacation) only makes sense, especially considering the lengths public schools go to know to acknowledge other religions.

 

 

She shared about her star and its meaning.

[Alexigail]

This is an opinion piece.  It's in the opinion section.  So we have one writer's interpretation which is based on one side of the story. 

 

We don't know what the assignment was. 

We don't know if the girl was correctly following the assignment or not. 

We don't know how she presented the information or if it caused a disruption in class (or not).

We don't know if or why the teacher stopped her. 

We don't know about the nature of the parents' relationship with the school.

We don't know, we don't know, we don't know...

 

If this girl was really set up and then persecuted for her beliefs, then I truly feel sorry for her. As a kid, I was made fun of for the things I practiced.  It's not fun to be singled out as a kid, or taught something that you KNOW is wrong in school by a teacher who dislikes you ("If you're Christian, you're either Catholic or Protestant and those are the only options").   That was awful, but it's a pretty big leap from that to saying that the school was persecuting Orthodox Christians and tromping on my free speech.   

 

We just don't know what really happened and I refuse to form an opinion based on someone else's opinion piece.

[vonfirmath]

Possibly, but it is a common verse taught to 4 and 5yo kids in private Christian schools and in Sunday School, Awanas ect.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit that it was the girls own idea.  

 

By Christmas, my 6 yr old son has recited that particular verse at least a half dozen times in AWANAs alone (And I'm not sure if it was in Cubbies or not).  Maybe he's not "Average" But I have, indeed, overheard him quoting scripture a handful of times without any prompting from mom. (And sometimes when the scripture would not have occurred to ME.) He goes to bed nearly every night listening to AWANA CD for the year and this probably helps with keeping scripture at the forefront of his mind.

[vonfirmath]

I want to hear the other side.   I wonder if the assignment was really 'tell a family tradition about Christmas' and not 'tell a family tradition about your winter break/holiday' or something equally non-specific.  Maybe it's because I live/grew up in a very very diverse area (which I would assume Southern California also is??) but it would be very unusual for an entire class to have an assignment about a specific holiday's tradition around here since the assumption would be a fairly large portion of the class doesn't celebrate Christmas.

 

Although honestly, I don't see the big deal based on the article, we don't know what the teacher was thinking or worried about.  Maybe she thought the speech was going to go farther than it did and get to the point of condemning non-believers.   We just don't know.

 

My son was assigned, this past December, a project to study the "Winter Celebrations" in an assigned country (for him Japan) -- except one of the requirements was he had to answer the questions. And the questions made it obvious they wanted to know how Christmas was celebrated in JApan.  Since Christmas is not a big celebration in Japan (except insofar has it has become celebrated like they think Americans celebrate it -- so imitative), this was a bit problemmatical.  We solved the problem as best we could.

 

But I can see, even if worded as "winter holiday" most kids would take it to mean "what did you do for Christmas"

 

My son currently has to write 3 sentences about what he did over the winter break.  In trying to work out what he wants to write, I notice he's focusing on Christmas despite their being all these other days in there as well.

[bolt.]

I agree with Alexigail, above: there are simply too many unknowns about the structure of the assignment and whether this child was within her allotted time, on the assigned topic, and using an appropriate 'sharing' (not pressing) tone. The fact that she was cut off before saying her memory verse makes me think that perhaps her speech was already off the rails for some reason... But maybe not.

 

As far as the general topic, my kids (Canadian public school -- just after-schooling for now) have often been invited to share the traditions, holidays and significant things of their home-life and culture. This is normal, and considered a positive class engagement. It's part if the curriculum, and teachers have training/exposure to methods for doing it.

 

This has never been a problem and is not at all a "set up" -- I don't encourage them to be little evangelists, but to respond clearly, briefly and factually to the questions as asked.

 

All children are affirmed as having shared something interesting that contributes to the unique cultural plurality of the class. They are pleased to learn about both similarities and differences. To preserve that 'spirit of sharing' I would expect my child to be moderated by a teacher if she got carried away in a 'everyone should repent and believe in Jesus like me' manner. There IS a distinction, and there is a skill set for sharing in diverse groups -- just one of the many things a child who has a religion needs to learn.

[msjones]

If you're going to send your child to public school, you need to be prepared for him/her to confront other beliefs.

 

Little kids speak very openly about what they believe.  Yes, little kids do quote scripture.  They also sing songs, talk about YouTube videos, use foul language, talk about the beer in the fridge, about the movies their parents watch, about Daddy's boyfriend, people going to heaven/hell, what they think of the president, etc. etc.

 

Usually the other kids don't bat an eye. 

 

I wonder if the teacher was a rookie, because that kind of thing is routine.

[SKL]

This is crazy.  The teacher never should have given such an assignment.  The teacher set up this little girl and any other Christian child who is not conversant in the current interpretation of the 1st Amendment.  I'd like to know why they were allowed to mention the star and Bethlehem, which also come from the Bible.  Naturally the parents who received this assignment assumed that the kids were allowed to talk about the Bible.  The teacher should issue an apology to the family.

 

And to some of the comments - Santa is also offensive to some.  And yes he does threaten torture for children who are naughty.  Shame, deprivation, and in some traditions, a switch to be beaten with.  Not to mention the whole "he's watching you all the time" peeping tom stuff.  I mean gimme a break.

 

Terrible assignment from a public school teacher.  And then to shame a little girl over it, and blame her parents and make it a political thing.  Ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, I disagree that he law forbids kids from talking about the Bible in public school.  But obviously the school / teacher thought so, and they nevertheless invited Christian speech into the classroom.

[mrsrevmeg]

 

 

However, I'm also a bit suspicious about this story. It doesn't sound that normal for an average 6yo to be reciting scripture at every opportunity. I hope she did this because she happens to be a religious child and wanted to share a special Bible verse, but the cynic in me suspects that she may have been put up to it by her parents just to create the ensuing controversy.

 

My youngest child has always been like this. He loves to share scriptures with others. This is the kid who has said since he was four that he wants to be a missionary and/or preacher when he grows up. So maybe not exactly normal/average for most kids, but not unheard of either. It may be  that the parents did nothing to create controversy, this could just be the way the kid thinks.

 

[goldberry]

I think you are off here, Joanne.

 

It was a presentation to do with the biggest Christian holiday of the year. Students are absolutely allowed to share their religious views in school. If we want to protect kids with blue hair and kids who don't say the pledge, then we protect kids talking about this important aspect of their life.

 

As someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas, this would not have disturbed me in the least.

 

If the teacher wanted to avoid discussion of religious issues, she should never have made the assignment concerning a religious holiday.  And we are talking about 6 year olds here...are they supposed to understand all the finer points of political correctness?  And would we even want them to?  They are just full of love and enthusiasm.  About Christmas or My Little Ponies...it doesn't matter.

 

ETA, yes, of course, we DO want them to eventually learn tactfullness, and we teach them.  But I certainly don't expect that to be perfected at that age.  There is something appealing about their enthusiasm, even at the same time we teach them to restrain it.

[Ellie]

 

Meantime, I'll keep teaching my non-Christian kids to dial it down in mixed company. We're just polite like that.

 

I guess the Apostle Paul was not nearly as polite as y'all.

[SpecialClassical]

It doesn't matter one bit if the scripture she used was Offensive. Isn't that what free speech is about? If people are not allowed to voice their unpopular opinions in public places our country really will have lost a vital freedom. The issue isn't offense, it is endorsement by the state. The teacher could have politely explained that she appreciated the child's presentation of what Christmas meant to her and then mentioned that all religious view of the holiday break were welcome.

 

Also, in our Christmas celebration we talk about how Jesus was born to die. That verse covers his birth (he sent) and salvation (through his death). If "he sent" doesn't refer to Christmas, what does it refer to?

[SKL]

And to answer the question in the title, no, people do not all know the exact latest local interpretation of the First Amendment, which changes from time to time and from place to place.  The families were invited to share their Christmas traditions and that's what they did.  I believe it is a stretch to assume that the inclusion of a Bible verse in this context was intended to convert any children who might not be Christians.  The one-time recitation of that one verse, which is not in kid-friendly language and does not include the word "Jesus" nor "Christ," does not have the potential to convert children.

 

On the other hand, the entire exercise could have been hurtful to those (Christian and otherwise) who do not celebrate Christmas the way the mainstream does.  Imagine being the child who had to stand up and say, "we believe Christmas is a Pagan holiday and do not celebrate it at all."

[Scarlett]

I think the teacher did it on purpose to make a point.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Oh come on. I personally don't care but she seriously HAD to quote scripture to protect her right to free speech ?

'For us, Christmas is a celebration of when baby Jesus was born in Bethlehem. We put this star on top of the tree. It reminds us of the star that guided the wise men to visit baby Jesus.'

'Thank you Mary Lou. Please sit down. Nia, what does Christmas mean at your house ?'

Abstaining from speech doesn't impact on others.

Whatever. It's a beat up, guys. When we hear two sides to the story, it will BE a story.

The lesson was about sharing a tradition, not The Truth as one family/child sees it.

Meantime, I'll keep teaching my non-Christian kids to dial it down in mixed company. We're just polite like that.

Personally, I do not want to live in a country where free speech becomes free-but-say-only-what-you-have-to-say speech. It doesn't matter that she didn't HAVE to quote scripture. It would be an oxymoron to think of free speech as limited to getting out the bare minimum to express your point. The Truth as that child sees it is the focus of her tradition. To many, The Truth is inseparable from any discussion of Christmas, and that one short, simple verse succinctly expresses the main focus of her holiday.

 

Polite is not just dialing down your own perspective; it is also dialing down extreme reactions and righteous indignation when others express their perspective.

[WishboneDawn]

I think the teacher did it on purpose to make a point.

I find it as likely, if not more so, that the parents sent the child in with scripture to make a point.

 

But guessing motives is useless and their motives are beside the point.

[Joanne]

How are so many people seemingly missing that the child was able to share her tradition and the story behind it?

[albeto.]

How are so many people seemingly missing that the child was able to share her tradition and the story behind it?

 

confirmation bias 

[Scarlett]

I find it as likely, if not more so, that the parents sent the child in with scripture to make a point.

 

But guessing motives is useless and their motives are beside the point.

I would imagine every kid there had help from their parents for that assignment. People talk about what is important to them. Parents teach their children what they believe to be right.

 

And guessing motive may be useless, but I very much believe motive matters. People trying to stir things up on either end does matter.

[SKL]

How are so many people seemingly missing that the child was able to share her tradition and the story behind it?

 

That's what makes the whole thing crazy.  Explicitly inviting religious speech into a 1st-grade classroom AND expecting the students (or their parents) to know where to draw the line.

[poppy]

It doesn't matter one bit if the scripture she used was Offensive. Isn't that what free speech is about? If people are not allowed to voice their unpopular opinions in public places our country really will have lost a vital freedom. The issue isn't offense, it is endorsement by the state. The teacher could have politely explained that she appreciated the child's presentation of what Christmas meant to her and then mentioned that all religious view of the holiday break were welcome.

 

Also, in our Christmas celebration we talk about how Jesus was born to die. That verse covers his birth (he sent) and salvation (through his death). If "he sent" doesn't refer to Christmas, what does it refer to?

School policies do not have to allow full 1at amendment protections. Any dress code, for example.

[Joanne]

That's what makes the whole thing crazy. Explicitly inviting religious speech into a 1st-grade classroom AND expecting the students (or their parents) to know where to draw the line.

It seems fairly intuitive and straightforward to me. If my kids were that age today, I'd expect them to say we celebrate the spirit of giving. And I know I would stop at calling Jesus a myth, even with "freedom of speech" in a public school setting.

 

Brynn telling her star story = appropriate for the assignment and setting. Quoting Christian scripture is not.

[SKL]

Joanne, I think you misunderstand the rules.  Children are allowed to say pretty much whatever they want about their beliefs in school.  The teacher is not allowed to teach whatever she wants.  Now maybe this crossed a line because by putting a child up front to give a report, the child is momentarily teaching the class - but IF that is the case, it was the fault of the teacher for instructing children to go up front and tell the class about how they do Christmas (or the Holidays or whatever).  I can't believe you are holding a first-grader to some sort of standard.  She has never heard of the First Amendment.  The kids' parents could be from any kind of background - they could be immigrants from a very Christian country, they could be uneducated, they could be all kinds of things.  And, she should have known that some of the parents, educated or not, would encourage their kids to quote scripture.  She should not have given the assignment if that was going to be a problem.

[Alte Veste Academy]

How are so many people seemingly missing that the child was able to share her tradition and the story behind it?

I don't think people are missing it. They are just focusing on the issue of her being cut off from sharing the scripture that best expresses the focus of her tradition. Well I am anyway.

 

Brynn telling her star story = appropriate for the assignment and setting. Quoting Christian scripture is not.

In your opinion. Many disagree, and not just Christians.

 

I must admit that I find myself wondering what your opinion on the matter would have been when you were a Christian.

[Joanne]

SKL, I understand the rules just fine. And children learn standards as we teach them, including what is appropriate in a public school classroom.

[Mergath]

Really?  John 3:16 is a very simple verse and is often one of the very first pre-k children are taught.  

 

John 3:16

New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

•  

 

 

 

I don't know where you got barbques and roasting from that, but if you do. I can't imagine what you would get from  stories about elves stalking children waiting for them to do bad things to report back to Santa.  A fat man, who breaks into peoples homes and only leaves presents for children he sees as worthy.  Some, who he presumably likes better getting expensive toys like gaming systems/hot Christmas fad items, gift cards and presents cramming a stocking full..... and other getting a small book, orange and a few bits of candy....or possibly nothing at all.  

 

As you'll see if you go back and read my post, I was talking about children proselytizing in general and the problems that arise when Hell comes up.  I wasn't referencing John 3:16 there, and while that verse may not specifically mention Hell, I think we can all agree that the idea of non-believers burning for eternity isn't exactly foreign to Christianity, though not all Christians believe it.  The type that would push their children to evangelize do seem to be fans of the idea, in my experience.

[Joanne]

I don't think people are missing it. They are just focusing on the issue of her being cut off from sharing the scripture that best expresses the focus of her tradition. Well I am anyway.

 

 

In your opinion. Many disagree, and not just Christians.

 

I must admit that I find myself wondering what your opinion on the matter would have been when you were a Christian.

Actually, those against the teacher's guidelines in this thread are Christians. Did yours that I'd also be against scripture from the qu'ran?

 

And when I was Christian, I was still anti-evangelistic and likely would have felt and responded the same way.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Actually, those against the teacher's guidelines in this thread are Christians. Did yours that I'd also be against scripture from the qu'ran?

 

And when I was Christian, I was still anti-evangelistic and likely would have felt and responded the same way.

Good to know, thanks!

 

I don't understand your first statement and question though. I was not addressing the teacher's guidelines. I was saying that it is not just Christians who would not have a problem with this Christian scripture being shared by a school child in class, in this context. I would also not have a problem with quoted text from other religious faiths in a similar context. I understand from your OP that you disagree there too.

[Miss Marple]

 

 

6yo knowing the difference/social rules vs. legal rules - highly unlikely and pretty unreasonable to expect. 

Yeah, I'd be surprised that any 6 year old would be able to figure out which words from the storybook could be quoted.  Since the Star story is in the Bible, any 6 year old I know would assume the rest of the Bible (storybook) could be used as well.  

[SKL]

As you'll see if you go back and read my post, I was talking about children proselytizing in general and the problems that arise when Hell comes up.  I wasn't referencing John 3:16 there, and while that verse may not specifically mention Hell, I think we can all agree that the idea of non-believers burning for eternity isn't exactly foreign to Christianity, though not all Christians believe it.  The type that would push their children to evangelize do seem to be fans of the idea, in my experience.

 

Well first of all, there is no evidence that any of that Hell talk occurred.  Second, nowadays many Christian kids aren't taught about Hell until they are older - their Christan ed focuses on love and other positive stuff.  Third, if a kid is taught to come into school and talk about Hell, she's going to do it on the playground, in the lunchroom, in the halls, etc., and I don't even think that's illegal.  How that relates in any way to this girl quoting John 3:16 during an assigned report about a Christian holiday is beyond me.  I mean, we get it, you don't like hearing about Hell.  I don't, either.

[MrsMommy]

I have one child in the public school system, and he had to make an "artifact box" over Christmas break, with pictures and items in it that showed how he spent his vacation. Probably 75% of the stuff in there (at least!) was church-related, because to us, that's kind of the point of Christmas, and we spent a lot of time at church during his vacation.

 

Now I'm wondering what kind of trouble we're going to get into when he starts sharing what's in his box, and writing about it for assignments.

 

Oh well. We can't change who we are and what's important to us just because he happens to go to a public school.

[ajfries]

The problem is that she quoted scripture?? Because there are a lot of sayings that originate with the bible. The Golden Rule, for example.

 

And also, again, there are Christians that don't believe the teaching of Hell is biblical. Stating that Jesus was the Savior of the world is not the same as saying, "And all y'all that don't believe that are damned to eternal torture."

[SKL]

You might want to look up the law on this, see the Fraser standard or Gov. Cuomo's State of the State address.  From what I've seen in this area, if your child's beliefs are expressed in a way that verbally harasses or physically harms another child, or are discriminatory in race, creed, national origin, etc your child is going to be in court, along with the school officials who are supposed to be running a place of learning, not a place of harrassment and intimidation. 

 

In my area, there are religious compounds and the children are instructed in what they are allowed to say and do before they enter public school. The parents are quite aware of what the current interpretation of the first amendment is.

 

To you first paragraph, none of that allegedly happened here.  It would be along the lines of calling a child ugly or stupid or picking on his race, bullying a child over his religion, etc.  I didn't say there are zero restrictions on how a child can speak in school, but the content is a lot more open than Joanne seems to think.

 

To your second paragraph, that's nice that parents in your area are so informed, but this is a big and diverse country.  Where I live, that is certainly not the case.  It is very live-and-let-live here, and we do have a diverse population, although perhaps not as diverse as where you live.  That said, I would be very surprised to see our local public schools ask children to give a presentation about a religious holiday.  They would just avoid the whole thing rather than risk complaints from those who are not members of the religion(s) represented.

[albeto.]

If I could speak to the little girl I would say, "This is what Jesus says to you, 'Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.'"

 

In what way does telling a first grader to not finish her bible verse compare with being hated, separated, reproached, name cast out as evil?

[Scarlett]

You might want to look up the law on this, see the Fraser standard or Gov. Cuomo's State of the State address. From what I've seen in this area, if your child's beliefs are expressed in a way that verbally harasses or physically harms another child, or are discriminatory in race, creed, national origin, etc your child is going to be in court, along with the school officials who are supposed to be running a place of learning, not a place of harrassment and intimidation. .

The child in this article didn't appear to be doing any of those things. It was a presentation of HER beliefs. Which was apparently the assignment.

[Paige]

How are so many people seemingly missing that the child was able to share her tradition and the story behind it?

I agree that the quote was unnecessary, but I disagree that just because it was unnecessary means it should not be allowed. IMO, it would be just like if a child talked about setting up cookies for Santa Claus and wanted to include a quote from The Night Before Christmas.

 

If she cut the student off because it got long, that would be perfectly reasonable in both instances. However, if she cut one child off because of the content of the quote when she would have allowed another one, I think that was wrong. But, I don't think it should be a huge deal. Teachers make mistakes. Kids say things that can make people uncomfortable. It's life.

[albeto.]

Yeah, I'd be surprised that any 6 year old would be able to figure out which words from the storybook could be quoted.  Since the Star story is in the Bible, any 6 year old I know would assume the rest of the Bible (storybook) could be used as well.  

 

I agree with this. How could a six year old know what's appropriate and what's not in the context of a secular school and a presentation of a religious holiday? So wouldn't it be the duty of the teacher to be in charge of that? I could understand if this was say, fifth grade and these reports were 10-15 min long. The teacher might remind the student to leave the evangelizing out and move on. But this was a one minute talk given to an audience of arguably, short attention span six year olds getting excited for the holiday break. We don't know if her minute was almost up anyway, or if she has a history of talking about Jesus being the savior of the world, or if the teacher has a thing about religion. None of these things we can glean from the Fox source. I don't think anyone is assigning culpability to the child, she did as she thought was right. But the teacher has a responsibility as a representative of a secular school to not show favor to one religion over another. It's a logical and practical thing to simply not promote any religion. A practice (star of david on the tree) is not promoting a religion, it's sharing a practice. Telling the class Jesus is the savior of the world is promoting a religion. Perhaps that's the line the teachers are told to adhere to. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

I wonder if perhaps the assignment was not to discuss a Christmas tradition, but a holiday or winter tradition. I could very well imagine a child who celebrates Christmas assuming "holiday" was the same as "Christmas" and running with it, which would certainly be fair. I just bring this up because I keep reading "Well the teacher DID ask for Christmas traditions."  It would be nice if some org besides Fox covered this and someone asked deep questions rather than assuming this is persecution and the teacher is at fault because she got what she asked for.

 

I agree with Sadie's comments throughout this thread, especially the following:   

 

I don't know if I believe it, to be honest.

 

If it was my classroom, I would have let the child finish her presentation and any eyerolls over the parents sending her with scripture to quote would have been saved for the staffroom.

 

Maybe it was a little like an example discussed in the War on Christmas thread, where the teacher panicked because she wasn't sure about the rules.

 

I don't buy it as an example of Christian persecution in schools OR as offensive to non-Christians.

 

 

Teachers can get flustered just like anyone else. We don't know her intentions, but I highly doubt there was some grand conspiracy here to persecute Christians. More likely she didn't know what was allowed and had a knee-jerk reaction.