A lawmaker in MO wants to ban shopping on Thanksgiving

[scholastica]

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/st-louis-area-lawmaker-plans-try-again-ban-mo-retailers-opening-thanksgiving-day

 

What do you think? 

 

scholastica

[scholastica]

Great! Workers get to spend time with family, everyone gets a one day break from consumerism. Lovely.

 

I'm sure there a zillion reasons my initial reaction is wrong :)

I agree with you.  Last night my nieces and nephews were all leaving early to get to work.  We hardly get to see them as it is, can't we just have one day?

 

I understand emergency workers and hospital workers, but retail is not necessary on Thanksgiving.

 

scholastica

[zoobie]

I don't think the government should make that call. Restaurants, hotels, lots of people work on holidays. I don't really think the state should have a say in what is and isn't necessary. (Blue laws are stoopid too IMO...)

[Χά�ων]

I don't think the government should make that call. Restaurants, hotels, lots of people work on holidays. I don't really think the state should have a say in what is and isn't necessary. (Blue laws are stoopid too IMO...)

This

[TechWife]

I think the government should keep its nose out of company policies in this matter. There have always been some stores of one kind or another open on Thanksgiving - pharmacies, gas stations and the like.

 

I think that if people don't want to shop, they should just stay home. If companies loose money by opening on the holidays then they'll stop doing it, it's as simple as that.

 

There are 365 days in a year, with enough advance planning you can find time for your family to get together.

[Aura]

I don't know what to think. On one hand, I think the gov't should stay out of it. On the other, retailers are only listening to their pockets and really are not considering what their customers want. It's just a big game of one-upmanship. I love shopping on Black Friday because I can usually find some really good deals that I wouldn't otherwise. However, if I want to take advantage of those deals, I HAVE to be there. For some things, it's then or never. This year, I didn't go shopping at all because I just don't have any money to spend, and the few gifts we're looking at are not part of any super Black Friday sales. No advantage for me. However, my sis managed to get her dd a Nook Simple Touch. At $39, this is the only way she can afford it. Based on past marketing, it will not go on sale again for this price until next year. So for cash-strapped shoppers (and there seems to more of us each year), the idea of boycotting early shopping only works if you are not dependent on those deals.

 

If retailers would simply wait, then I and others like me wouldn't have to choose. But although people would prefer not to shop on Thursday (and that really does seem to be the prevailing opinion), the retailers are not listening and forcing them to choose.

 

Yeah, you can say that the whole idea of getting your child what he/she wants for Christmas is just too commercial as it is and that Christmas is not about gifts...but really, if it was your dd and all she wanted was a decent ereader (so she could read the tons of ebooks her aunt has ready and waiting to give her), and the only way you could do that was to be there when the store opened, then I'd bet you'd be there.

 

I really dislike gov't getting involved in this, but again, retailers are only listening to their bottom line. The whole thing is just very frustrating.

[PrincessMommy]

I think the idea is great, but I don't like that gov't is stepping in.    It should not be a law.

[NicAnn]

It should not be a law, at all.

 

1. People should take responsibility for themselves if they don't like Black Friday...as much as I despise the shopping and ads and a million other things, most seem to enjoy it.

 

2. Many people prefer to work holidays. People like DH and I, who don't celebrate, get an opportunity to allow workers that do be with their families, and we typically get a higher wage.

 

3. Who gets to decide who can work and who can't? There are tons of business and occupations that cannot close up for the day. Should those people not be allowed to eat, get gas in their car, buy a necessity for their jobs?

 

Bad idea all around.

[kitten18]

I don't think the government should make that call. Restaurants, hotels, lots of people work on holidays. I don't really think the state should have a say in what is and isn't necessary. (Blue laws are stoopid too IMO...)

:iagree:

[Word Nerd]

Dumb and incredibly short sighted.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Regulating that would be a nightmare. All the rules necessary to determine what is necessary/essential to remain open and what is not. Not worth the effort.

[sassenach]

Great! Workers get to spend time with family, everyone gets a one day break from consumerism. Lovely.

 

I'm sure there a zillion reasons my initial reaction is wrong :)

 

I totally agree.

I don't think the government should make that call. Restaurants, hotels, lots of people work on holidays. I don't really think the state should have a say in what is and isn't necessary. (Blue laws are stoopid too IMO...)

I totally agree with this, too!  

 

I hate that black Friday is now becoming black Thursday.  

[Susan in TN]

Lucky for the people of MO, they get to hire, fire, and petition their lawmakers on a regular basis. Hopefully someone is paying attention here.

[Word Nerd]

Idk. I'm old enough to remember when nothing, except the service station, was open on Sundays. A whole day every week where you could run out for petrol or milk and that was about it. Pre- ATM as well. Everyone lived. I'm pretty sure that was regulated.

 

That's the way it is now every Sunday in our little town, and regulations have nothing to do with it (though our state's silly blue law prohibits alcohol sales in the gas station that's still open that day).

[Zebra]

I have to say, that I absolutely love living in a state that doesn't allow stores to be open on Thanksgiving.   In theory I think the stores should be allowed to do whatever they want to do.   But in reality it's so nice to have the peace that goes along with stores being closed, and I hope they never change it.

 

I also remember when things were closed on Sundays, and I miss it.  There is just something nice about it, IMHO.  But it's probably like thinking outhouses and buggies are nice too :lol:!

[LaxMom]

I'm pretty sure it is exactly the government's job to protect the citizens against the interests of commerce. I'm sure there were a fair number of people who were equally horrified when workplace safety and child labor laws were passed. The fact is, commerce does not willingly do that on its own.

 

Where does one draw the line between the perceived "right" to acquire stuff and others' rights to a healthy and satisfying life?

[elegantlion]

Dumb and incredibly short sighted.

 

I read that in Benedict's voice, just so you know. :D

 

 

I'm in MO, shouldn't be regulated. The only way to change it is to change the consumeristic zombie mindset of the people. 

[Chelle in MO]

Where does one draw the line between the perceived "right" to acquire stuff and others' rights to a healthy and satisfying life?

 

Will you please elaborate on the above part of your post?  I'm trying to understand how shopping on Thanksgiving is related to people's lives being healthy and satisfying.  Absolutely no snark intended.

 

Thanks!

 

[marbel]

I have to say, that I absolutely love living in a state that doesn't allow stores to be open on Thanksgiving.   In theory I think the stores should be allowed to do whatever they want to do.   But in reality it's so nice to have the peace that goes along with stores being closed, and I hope they never change it.

 

I also remember when things were closed on Sundays, and I miss it.  There is just something nice about it, IMHO.  But it's probably like thinking outhouses and buggies are nice too :lol:!

 

I also remember when things were closed on Sundays.  I don't understand your comment about it being nicer, though.  Sunday shopping is pretty easy to avoid. [ETA:  Except, of course, for retail workers who may be forced to work on a day they'd prefer not to.]

 

My family was talking about this the other day.  I've heard a lot of people complaining about stores being open on Sunday and how that's contributed to the general decline of American culture.  But I think that the change from stores being closed to stores being open is not the cause but a result of cultural changes.

 

When I was a kid Sunday was spent going to church and visiting grandparents. Even if stores were open we wouldn't have been shopping.  Then our family moved across the country and of course those weekly visits stopped.  We didn't start shopping, but our Sundays changed.

 

In the US, more and more people are living away from family.  (Well, in a lot of places.  Where I live now, no one moves away.)   Fewer people are going to church on Sunday.  It's not a special or set-apart day for so many people. So it probably stopped making sense for stores to be closed. 

 

I try very hard not to participate in commerce on Sunday.  Sometimes I slip.  But that's my choice.  Whether the store is open or not hasn't anything to do with me.   Sunday is as peaceful a day as I make it. 

 

Thanksgiving is a bit different to me.  I honestly think it's more important to have stores closed on Thanksgiving, an American holiday, than on Christmas, a religious holiday.  I wouldn't shop either  day as both are important to me.  But I don't see any reason anymore for stores to be closed on Christmas as there are plenty of people for whom that is just another day.

 

I don't think a law is the answer here.  In my dream world, people who work in nonessential industries would be given the choice to work or not work on those days.  I realize that's impossible as there might be more people who don't want to work than do.  I do feel bad for people who have to work but don't want to.  I'm not convinced that most people get such great bargains on Black Friday that it is truly essential for them to participate in it but I am not sure about that.   But if people are willing to shop, stores will be open. 

 

[ErinE]

I have to say, that I absolutely love living in a state that doesn't allow stores to be open on Thanksgiving. In theory I think the stores should be allowed to do whatever they want to do. But in reality it's so nice to have the peace that goes along with stores being closed, and I hope they never change it.

 

I also remember when things were closed on Sundays, and I miss it. There is just something nice about it, IMHO. But it's probably like thinking outhouses and buggies are nice too :lol:!

We had planned on having Thanksgiving dinner with family. Unfortunately, health issues forced us to stay home. Since I was anticipating being out of town and we're moving soon, our pantry is very light on food. I am glad at least a few stores were open on Thanksgiving.

[BigMamaBird]

I HATE the idea of people shopping on Thanksgiving and I wish people would voluntarily stop doing it.  But I am against the idea of legislating it.  

[Dmmetler]

I think he's thinking from a salaried viewpoint. When you have paid holidays, the idea of giving up one to work that you've always had is a horrible imposition. But I'm guessing that for some of the people working at Walmart Thanksgiving night, working on Thanksgiving may well be letting them pay a bill or two-or have something for their child on Christmas morning.

 

In my dream world, people would be able to choose to work holidays, or not, without penalty-and would be paid extra for working said holidays if they choose to do so.

 

DH worked (until it was bought out) for a small boutique software engineering firm that was very friendly to Orthodox Jewish workers. (It was owned by a man who had been raised Orthodox-so when the company grew enough that he could buy a building, he bought one that had kitchens in both upstairs and downstairs office suites, which let one be set up to be kosher), and, over time, also got a reputation for being friendly to religious needs in general. The result was that he had a wealth of good engineers and tech support and programmers to choose from when he had openings, and had little trouble maintaining the tech support desk or having engineers volunteer to be on the on-call rota over holidays, because people simply signed up for the days they were comfortable working (it also worked out well for non-holidays-my night-owl DH who's mind doesn't wake up until the sun has been up for a couple of hours was more than willing to shift his work schedule such that his Orthodox colleagues could be home before sundown Friday-or Monday-Thursday, for that matter!).

 

It has been much, much harder since the company was bought out, and holiday work is something that gets passed off to the most junior employees. DH has gotten pulled into crisis situations while on vacation much, much more often, and there's a lot more to deal with when he gets back (not to mention that soon after the acquisition , they lost a lot of really competent employees who found the new schedules to be incompatible with their beliefs). It doesn't work nearly as well for all concerned.

 

As diverse as the US is, it seems that maybe this would work for more industries, at least in larger cities.

 

 

 

 

[Word Nerd]

Thinking something is "nice" is not a reason to legally mandate it. Why do citizens need to be protected from the same "interests of commerce" that buyers and sellers willingly engage in every day?

[zoobie]

I'm pretty sure it is exactly the government's job to protect the citizens against the interests of commerce. I'm sure there were a fair number of people who were equally horrified when workplace safety and child labor laws were passed. The fact is, commerce does not willingly do that on its own.

 

Where does one draw the line between the perceived "right" to acquire stuff and others' rights to a healthy and satisfying life?

Making sure small children don't work 12 hours a day or people don't burn up in a sweatshop because the boss chained the doors shut are not in the same ballpark as making sure Susie doesn't have to work at Wal-Mart on the 3rd Thursday in November.

 

Why single out retail? Should the government close restaurants? Gluttony! Close the airports. The hotels. Watch your own tv! No movie theaters. And the TV should be pre-programmed so no one has to work at the stations. No football so no one has to work the concession stands or the parking lots. Should've filled up your tank yesterday, no gas stations!

 

If you don't approve of retail stores opening on Thanksgiving, write them and tell them. Boycott shopping there. But I would bet my boots that the people working there would rather the government intervened for a minimum wage increase to living wage than cutting off their chance for holiday pay on Thursday.

 

Blue laws are what prevent shopping, buying liquor, etc. on Sundays. Why single out retail? And why Sunday if not for promoting a religious purpose? I've always thought how incredibly inconvenient that would be for Orthodox Jewish families who have a different Sabbath. The whole weekend would be out for running errands. Are there many who live in New Jersey, for example? (Could that have been part of the point in passing the laws?)

 

If you don't want to shop on Sunday or Thursday, don't shop. If you own the store, close it!

[Zebra]

I also remember when things were closed on Sundays.  I don't understand your comment about it being nicer, though.  Sunday shopping is pretty easy to avoid. [ETA:  Except, of course, for retail workers who may be forced to work on a day they'd prefer not to.]

 

It's nicer because the roads are clear and there isn't this stressful intensity of even having the option of going out shopping.   You used to not be able to go to the store, and so you had to find other things to do on a Sunday.   Unless you had certain jobs, you were forced to take a day off.   It's a just a good habit to take some quiet time.  We don't do it enough as a culture.  

 

I don't go to church, and I am not against Sunday shopping.  I don't think it should be legislated.   It was just very nice on Thanksgiving to have this sort of laid back feeling in the air.  It reminded me how I used to have that feeling every week.   It's just wistful nostalgia on my part, nothing more :) !

[QueenCat]

I don't think the government should make that call. Restaurants, hotels, lots of people work on holidays. I don't really think the state should have a say in what is and isn't necessary. (Blue laws are stoopid too IMO...)

 

I concur............. although I don't shop on Thanksgiving, the govt is not the one who should be determining when I can or cannot shop.

[AlmiraGulch]

I'm pretty sure it is exactly the government's job to protect the citizens against the interests of commerce. I'm sure there were a fair number of people who were equally horrified when workplace safety and child labor laws were passed. The fact is, commerce does not willingly do that on its own.

 

Where does one draw the line between the perceived "right" to acquire stuff and others' rights to a healthy and satisfying life?

 

I hear what you're saying, but I totally disagree.  There is a huge difference between actual safety of human beings and in allowing businesses to be open during the days and hours they choose.

 

You know what would stop it?  If people didn't shop then.  If no one came, they wouldn't open.  

[trulycrabby]

Commerce drives our economy. People who work on holidays make money to feed their families. While I personally loathe shopping on holidays, I don't believe govt should regulate it; the laws just suppress the economy. Stupid and short-sighted, I agree.

[elegantlion]

I grew up with a dad that worked holidays unless it was his day off. Try getting Christmas off every 7 years. You all like to watch tv on the holiday? That's what he was doing, making sure your programming ran correctly. Do you board your pets to travel over the holidays? Guess what, someone has to run in and feed, water them all and take out the dogs. I did that for several years. Loads of people already work the holidays. Having retail closed isn't some bastion of sanity or a right of this culture. You don't have to go out, you may even have a choice not to work retail. I was at walmart at 6:30 this morning for groceries. Apparently they had extra staff overnight, I'll bet some of those people are grateful for a few extra bucks this time of year. 

 

Quiet family time can happen whether Kohls or Target are open or closed. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

We're having our Thanksgiving celebration today on Saturday.  I suppose you could say it was due to family members having to work on the  holiday because those family members live in Canada and didn't have the day off!  We're able to be just as thankful today.  We'll be able to stuff ourselves with good food just as much.  We'll be able to roll our eyes at family member's idiosyncrasies just as much as if we did it on Thursday.  I don't get the rigidity of having to celebrate  holidays on a certain day - esp. if the day has no particular significance other than being the one assigned by a president long ago.  

[Word Nerd]

Having retail closed isn't some bastion of sanity or a right of this culture.

Exactly. Your post illustrates how logically inconsistent and capricious the shopping ban idea is. Even in the states that ban Thanksgiving shopping, plenty of other businesses are allowed to remain open, and consumers are allowed to make purchases there. Why is it perceived as a violation of workers' rights to have to work at Sears or Target on Thanksgiving but not at a truck stop, hotel, movie theater, or toll booth? Why should it be up to the state to dictate when legal goods and services may be bought and sold just because it's a holiday? It's feel-good legislation based on emotional appeals.

[SKL]

Yeah, it's not the government's business, but it would be nice if individuals showed some restraint and some concern for their fellow man by not shopping at ridiculous hours on Thanksgiving night (or the wee hours of Friday morning).  That's my first thought.

 

Then again, maybe we should poll the retail workers who otherwise would not be getting paid for that time.  Not everyone has a storybook Thanksgiving with family anyway.  Maybe some of them need the money so they can have Christmas dinner this year?

 

There are a lot of people who work on holidays every year and don't make a fuss about it.  Maybe we are making a big fuss over something that shouldn't be.  I mean, look at the people who have to be deployed overseas for months and years.  You don't hear them complaining about the family dinners they have missed.  Also, if we act like Thanksgiving supper is too sacred for retail workers to miss, what will be next?  Do we really need shops to be open on Christmas Eve?  What about Sundays?  What about stores and factories that operate around the clock - shouldn't they be forced to respect a reasonable bedtime for their employees?

[PeacefulChaos]

My thoughts:

Why does it bother others if people have to work on Thanksgiving?  Or if they choose to shop?  What business is it of mine if someone else wants to stand in line for a deal at 6pm?

Oh, right.  None.

Lots of people work on holidays.  Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.  Some of us volunteer to, not because of the money but because why not?  It's just a day.  Sure, it has a special name, whatever.  But it's a day.  I went to work at 2:30 on Thanksgiving.  It's not at all difficult to have a meal at 12 with extended family and leave at 2.  If we didn't live near extended family, we wouldn't travel for holidays anyway because we don't travel this time of year, we're too busy.  So then we'd just be at home.  

DH and I may both work Christmas.  Oh, the travesty!!!  :rolleyes:  Seriously?  If we can't make it over to the ILs on Christmas, who cares?  We can reschedule it for the Saturday following or something.

I just really don't think it's a big deal.  I think this guy who wants to pass this law is an interfering, possibly overemotional, idiot.

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

It is true that many families have to get together on a different day than the set Holiday.... and with so much divorce, it makes it even more difficult to spend time with multiple families.  

 

  My family thrives for the SET holiday's to see even a few relatives.  When grandmother's pass away, and the family's live far from each other, it is difficult too.  

 

   Dh only has Holiday's off so we must celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas on the day or it won't happen.  Many of our family members also are only off on set holiday's.

 

   My niece had to juggle her ex, kids, and work, on TG Day.... I felt badly for her.  

 

Still, I don't think the Gov. can really shut down the shopping... it is crazy IMHO to eat that much in one day though.... maybe they could put a limit on that ... JK :)

[marbel]

My thoughts:

Why does it bother others if people have to work on Thanksgiving?  Or if they choose to shop?  What business is it of mine if someone else wants to stand in line for a deal at 6pm?

Oh, right.  None.

Lots of people work on holidays.  Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.  Some of us volunteer to, not because of the money but because why not?  It's just a day.  Sure, it has a special name, whatever.  But it's a day.  I went to work at 2:30 on Thanksgiving.  It's not at all difficult to have a meal at 12 with extended family and leave at 2.  If we didn't live near extended family, we wouldn't travel for holidays anyway because we don't travel this time of year, we're too busy.  So then we'd just be at home.  

DH and I may both work Christmas.  Oh, the travesty!!!   :rolleyes:  Seriously?  If we can't make it over to the ILs on Christmas, who cares?  We can reschedule it for the Saturday following or something.

I just really don't think it's a big deal.  I think this guy who wants to pass this law is an interfering, possibly overemotional, idiot.

 

I don't disagree with you exactly, but for some people it's just not that simple. 

 

If a family has some members with the day off, and others who don't have it off, it can be hard to coordinate a family get-together.  It can be hard even without a holiday in the mix of course.   A lot of businesses close down for the long weekend which makes it ideal for some people to travel.  Not everyone has vacation days they can use at other times during the year. 

 

So, it can just be complicated for some people.  Having set days off makes it easier. 

 

I still don't agree with legal interference but I also don't think it's so easy for everyone to just move the day, or to say "no big deal." 

[Zebra]

I don't live in an area where the roads are ever clear.  I can't imagine that making any sort of difference.

 

What about a person who needs money and the best days for them to work is Sunday and Saturday?  You are projecting your desires and values on everyone else.

 

People don't get paid in retail for days off. 

 

I do live in an area where the roads are clear when everything is closed.  I am not projecting my desires and values on everyone else.   I am saying it's nice, in my opinion, for me, in my area, when things are closed.   I enjoy it.  It is my opinion, that it is a pleasant situation.   But, I also said that I don't think they should regulate it.   So even though I like it, I think it should be left up to the stores to do what they want.  Again, stating my preference, not projecting my desires and values on everyone else.

[LucyStoner]

I think having minimum paid time off laws (for sick and vacation time), like most first world countries do, would be more meaningful to retail workers and their families than no shopping on Thanksgiving. That said, I don't shop Thanksgiving or Black Friday. All I am buying this weekend is cat food, because we ran out and the cat starving isn't ok. No one needs the cheap crap being shilled. Some things are not a bargain at any price.