Mike Huckabee's FB comment on public education

[Blueridge]

nm

[mom@shiloh]

Point well taken.  Years ago I read the book Endangered Minds which discusses how television viewing actually alters the brains of small children.  I'm not surprised that excessive reliance on technology would also alter our brains. 

[BigMamaBird]

My Dh and I go around and around about whether I should be teaching the kids cursive.  When the trial was happening and that part about the witness came out it really amped up our discussion and I believe added a lot of fuel to my argument that they need to learn it.  He still thinks it isn't necessary, but since I'm the one at home actually teaching them, they are learning cursive.  :laugh: 

[kewb]

To be fair, I know a few homeschool students who can't read cursive either. 

 

I have been telling my kids for years that the future is not about how many facts you can memorize it is about having the skill set to know how to find that information-whether electronic or in a book.  I don't know if memorization teaches you how to think but it certainly does exercise your brain which everyone needs.  Memorizing multiplication facts just makes math easier so I don't see why you would not want to do that.

 

That said, I taught mine cursive because all of our historical documents are in cursive and one should be able to read them.  At the very least you need to know how to sign your name on a check.

[bettyandbob]

I don't think cursive writing is that important. I have child who can't read cursive. He has severe fine motor deficits. He can write. He communicates extremely well in writing. He earned a 5 on his AP govt exam, which had an essay portion he was permitted to typ e. He earned an A in freshman composition in college. He doesn't read cursive.

 

Please name a job where handwritten writing in cursive is required. Every job I've had I typed my communications. I see contractors doing estimates and using portable printers to print the in their trucks now.

 

I don't consider cursive a necessary basic skill. Grammar and multiplication are necessary basic kills and a computer cannot make up for not having good grammar and basic math. It takes multiple steps for a computer to simulate, but not replace grammar and basic math and still things are missed when relying on the computer for grammar and basic math. But when a contractor hands me an estimate, I don't guess the any of the words he typed. The pharmacist no longer has to call a doctor to ask what he wrote on a prescription. Everyone who can read can read typed words. Everyone who reads cursive cannot read every version of cursive. I cannot read my mom's cursive. My brother failed handwriting in school. He doesn't hanwrite anything and he's very successful in a job that requires a lot of technical writing.

[marbel]

One of my kids can't write cursive, other than his signature.  He can read some cursive.  Honestly, some very old cursive is hard for me to read, and I have been writing in cursive for 50 years.   Handwriting changes.

 

I've never been able to keep facts in my head, and I am definitely pre-computer/internet.  My son has more ability to keep facts at hand (in his head) and make connections, than I ever could   (I do know my multiplication tables though.)   But I agree with a pp that being able to find facts is more important than keeping them memorized. When I was in school, history was all about dates and not much about connections between people and events, past and present.  Are the dates of the Civil War more important than what caused it and the consequences of it?   

[Farrar]

The idea that all public schools have taken the same track is incorrect.  Some public schools still teach cursive or the other skills he mentioned (well, maybe not sentence diagramming, but understanding grammar).  It really depends on your school.  But that doesn't really fit his narrative, does it?

 

I also question whether some of these things can really be termed "basic skills" anymore.  We know there are some brain benefits to cursive over print.  But as someone else pointed out, I can't think of any jobs that require writing in cursive, unless it's wedding calligrapher or something.

[Blueridge]

This is the part I thought was most interesting:

"...Many of these basic skills that have been taught to kids for generations, like memorizing multiplication tables and grammar rules, don’t just teach them math and enable them to communicate clearly: they train their minds to think. We’re already seeing studies that show kids’ brains are being rewired by their reliance on computers, with lower ability to recall facts..."

 

You know...Well-Trained Mind and all. :)

[Word Nerd]

I agree with his overall point but am not keen on his generalizations about public schools. My DD starts cursive this year (3rd grade) in school and will begin formal sentence diagramming with Shurley Grammar. She started memorizing multiplication tables toward the end of second grade and that will be a big focus this year (the school uses Saxon). Spelling correctly has been stressed ever since kindergarten (when she first started writing, she was expected to be able to spell only a few known words correctly).

 

Incidentally, one of the most vehemently anti-cursive diatribes I've ever read appeared on this board. 

[Miss Mousie]

Please name a job where handwritten writing in cursive is required.

 

Well, there's professional forgery for starters....  ;) 

[trinchick]

Another PS school mom here whose child is being taught cursive and multiplication tables (both begun in second grade and will be further expanded in third).

 

These generalizations against the public schools are commonplace and, frankly, cliche. Not every public school is great. Not every public school is poor. The same holds true for religious schools, private schools, and homeschooling families (see yesterday's thread about the religious exemption in VA). I certainly don't lump most HS families on this board with that mentioned in the NPR piece yesterday.

 

And let's not forget that Mike Huckabee (whom I generally like so this isn't just a bash at him) is also selling homeschool history DVDs. He's playing to a certain audience when he puts down public schools. It's part of his marketing plan.

[Miss Mousie]

This may be the first time I agree with Huckabee, if only in a general sense. 

 

I do have a child in public school.  They were good about memorizing "math facts" (they don't call it "multiplication tables" anymore); only fair-to-middlin' on grammar (which I have tried to supplement with MCT and diagramming, but we just don't have enough time to do everything I want to do); and only a cursory patch on cursive.

 

My son's brain moves *far* faster than his hands, and his printing is abysmal, but it's still faster than his unskilled cursive.  I write in cursive often just to make sure he is still required to decipher it from time to time, and I have informed him that, once his letter-formation skills in cursive become automatic, cursive will be much faster than printing.  So far, though, he seems not to have bought in.  Sigh.

 

 

[Miss Mousie]

And let's not forget that Mike Huckabee (who I generally like so this isn't just a bash at him) is also selling homeschool history DVDs.

 

I didn't know that.  Thanks for the information.

[trinchick]

Yep, here's the link:

 

http://www.mikehuckabee.com/learn-our-history

[FloridaLisa]

Notwithstanding public/private/charter/home/whatever school, this quote rang true for me:

 

 

"But the ability to store facts is the first step to recombine facts and ideas in fresh, new ways."

 

This is the beauty of ANYTHING memorized or learned. It's stored up for later use. Maybe my kids will never need to recite the Gettysburg address or many of the other things we learned, but it's in them.  The rhythm, syntax, vocabulary, ideas, numbers, dates and whatever else we've memorized is hopefully not the end-all but the *first step to recombine* for further uses. 

 

Lisa

[bolt.]

I think that people who are naturally change-adverse tend not to see the "up side" of various things/skills sliding out if usage, while other things/skills become more relevant and commonplace. Also, people learn differently.

 

Math "facts" are great for verbal learners who rely on memorization. On the other hand, "How numbers work, and how to 'do' minor calculations instead of just jumping to a 'known' answer." -- is also a valid style of instruction.

 

We aren't memorizing the names and dates of the royal families if Europe any more are we? Or geometry from Euclid? (Well, maybe some!) Yet that was once basic (at least in Canada it was).

 

If this man really thinks that grammar, times tables and cursive writing are the adaptive skills needed for a post EMP world -- and if that's really the only scenario that he can think of for the skills to become highly relevant again... Well, I beg your pardon, but I question the logic of calling those skills 'basic'.

[Miss Mousie]

Notwithstanding public/private/charter/home/whatever school, this quote rang true for me:

 

 

 

This is the beauty of ANYTHING memorized or learned. It's stored up for later use. Maybe my kids will never need to recite the Gettysburg address or many of the other things we learned, but it's in them.  The rhythm, syntax, vocabulary, ideas, numbers, dates and whatever else we've memorized is hopefully not the end-all but the *first step to recombine* for further uses. 

 

Lisa

 

Agreed.  Recently we have been watching the Teaching Company's How to Be A Superstar Student (McGee version), and he defines learning as combining information in new ways (paraphrased).

[Miss Mousie]

Yep, here's the link:

 

http://www.mikehuckabee.com/learn-our-history

 

Thank you.  Just a glance at the site made me shudder (it isn't my cup of tea), but I'm glad to know it's out there.

[KrissiK]

I realize that the whole cursive thing is an example, and not his point, but cursive ultimately got dropped with us because it was a battle I just was not willing to fight. However, I completely agree with what he says regarding the training of the mind. It comes from the progressive-utilitarian approach to education. We now educate children to be good citizens and good workers. And everything they are taught must fit that paradigm. It's the old, " why do I have to learn algebra, I'll never use it," argument. We believe that unless education is "useful" it is worthless. I've discovered something amazing this year about my 10 year old son, who many people have whispered ADD about.... he calms down if his mind is challenged. Latin, math, logic....

[mommymilkies]

nm

Edited August 8, 2013 by Moderator
No politics. That way, you can all keep talking.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The idea that all public schools have taken the same track is incorrect.  Some public schools still teach cursive or the other skills he mentioned (well, maybe not sentence diagramming, but understanding grammar).  It really depends on your school.  But that doesn't really fit his narrative, does it?

 

I also question whether some of these things can really be termed "basic skills" anymore.  We know there are some brain benefits to cursive over print.  But as someone else pointed out, I can't think of any jobs that require writing in cursive, unless it's wedding calligrapher or something.

Cursive may not be needed but the brain benefits IMO are critical. I think cursive enables a kid to learn to focus in many cases and also helps with muscle memory so to speak when learning things. I see it as a tragedy that some schools are skipping this and not teaching it to mastery.

[bolt.]

I think cursive was invented because the flow of dipped pens made 'joined' letters easier to execute than distinct ones. Therefore a convention was adopted to make sure that letters remained clear and understandable even when joined by trials between them. The transition from printing to cursive for a student would be right around the time when they were transitioning to ink (from pencil or slate pencil).

 

I even wonder if there is a sociological background to this (poor=pencil=printing=childish person barely educated) vs (richer=ink=cursive=person of quality and breeding).

 

That us not to set aside that it is *possible* that forming one's own words as 'whole units' (connected together) with only breaks to lift the pen between the words... It might have some effect on the brain, on learning, and on literacy it creativity... But just to say that these things are complicated.

 

Grammar is also sociologically complicated. English has dialects. When one dialect is "proper" and the others are "wrong" that is a clear statement of the stratification of society. When children are educated to abandon the grammar if their parents' dialect in favour of "proper" speech and writing (fluent use of another dialect) that's a strong socialization effect that bears looking into.

[LucyStoner]

I think that concerns about the slipping performance of some public schools is not at all an issue that breaks along political ideology. I am as liberal as they come. I still think grammar, handwriting and math facts have a big place in primary education. I think that statements like Huckabee's which frame this as a conservative or liberal issue are unhelpful and part of the problem.

[mommymilkies]

I think that concerns about the slipping performance of some public schools is not at all an issue that breaks along political ideology. I am as liberal as they come. I still think grammar, handwriting and math facts have a big place in primary education. I think that statements like Huckabee's which frame this as a conservative or liberal issue are unhelpful and part of the problem.

This. I'm a out of likes.

[LibraryLover]

I think all children should take several years of ballet, even little boys (the outfit is adorable- black shorts, white Ts, and cute black slippers).  *That's*  muscle memory, plus you get to learn French and identify classical music.   It would also help with the obesity problem, which learning cursive doesn't address.

 

;)

 

[nmoira]

I have a few scattered thoughts.

 

A lot of things we used to consider basic education are being set aside because kids today have computers and smartphones that make them obsolete.

 

Is that also why we're setting aside art, music, theatre arts, a comprehensive history and other "frills" and "enrichments"? Or is it at least partially because we have to find time and resources to test, test, test?

 

I wonder why Huckabee chose a poor black girl, from an educationally "underserved" community, who at 19 is not yet a high school graduate as his example. And are we really making the assumption that the educational opportunities available to her are the same as that of Huckabee's average supporter?

 

As far as cursive, I do teach my kids to read it; however, they write using joined italics because it looks elegant but can be read by anyone, which is important because it is likely many of their peers will indeed not be able to read cursive.

[Arcadia]

 

Is that also why we're setting aside art, music, theatre arts, a comprehensive history and other "frills" and "enrichments"? Or is it at least partially because we have to find time and resources to test, test, test?

Actually art, music, theatre arts, a comprehensive history are not neglected here in the public schools because the homeroom teacher gets to send the kids to another teacher in the dedicated rooms.  So the music teacher would be in the music room waiting. Violin starts at 3rd grade and band starts at 4th grade as part of music during school time. History projects are used for open house exhibits.

For K to 3rd grade, science is the one that is neglected because the homeroom teacher teaches science and would use that time slot for language arts remedial.  From 4th grade, there is a dedicated science teacher and science room so kids are happily sent off by the homeroom teacher so that the homeroom teacher can do her admin work.

State testing is allocated 10hrs (10 days x 1hr) per school year for 2nd to 5th grade so really takes very little time off teaching time.  Test prep is send home as homework. Besides the last two weeks was play/party time when my older attended and still is since I have neighbors kids in public schools.

For the middle schools, there are general discipline issues and bullying issues.  Those actually take up much more time than test prep and test taking.

School (public and private) experience here comes down to the teachers that teach your (general) child.  There is no consistency in quality of teaching.  Still there are good teachers out there.

[LibraryLover]

Thank you.  Just a glance at the site made me shudder (it isn't my cup of tea), but I'm glad to know it's out there.

 

Bill O'Reilly also fancies himself a writer of history. ;)

[Mrs Mungo]

The argument re: grammar is that people from educated English speaking homes learn grammar as they learn to speak. It doesn't a capable student take years of direct instruction to learn to id parts of speech or go thru the rules. My sons have had about 1/10 of classroom time spent on grammar compared to what I did; basically that let them spend the time on reading more complex novels rather than unnecessary drill.

I would strongly disagree with that. How do you learn rules of spelling and punctuation via speech? The vast majority of people do not speak as one writes in formal writing. Most people make glaring errors on a regular basis. My husband recently moved into a new job and made his new staff take down a bunch of signs with misspellings and punctuation errors. These are people with college degrees who are working in what equates to management jobs.

[Mrs Mungo]

Also, there may not be a ton of jobs that "require" one to write in cursive, but there are PLENTY where one is required to read someone else's cursive handwriting.

[mommymilkies]

Actually art, music, theatre arts, a comprehensive history are not neglected here in the public schools because the homeroom teacher gets to send the kids to another teacher in the dedicated rooms. So the music teacher would be in the music room waiting. Violin starts at 3rd grade and band starts at 4th grade as part of music during school time. History projects are used for open house exhibits.

For K to 3rd grade, science is the one that is neglected because the homeroom teacher teaches science and would use that time slot for language arts remedial. From 4th grade, there is a dedicated science teacher and science room so kids are happily sent off by the homeroom teacher so that the homeroom teacher can do her admin work.

State testing is allocated 10hrs (10 days x 1hr) per school year for 2nd to 5th grade so really takes very little time off teaching time. Test prep is send home as homework. Besides the last two weeks was play/party time when my older attended and still is since I have neighbors kids in public schools.

For the middle schools, there are general discipline issues and bullying issues. Those actually take up much more time than test prep and test taking.

School (public and private) experience here comes down to the teachers that teacher your (general) child. There is no consistency in quality of teaching. Still there are good teachers out there.

You're lucky. Here with budget cuts, they get one short art and music a week, and they had to lay off the high school band director because of budget cuts. They don't have high school band, ffs. Languages are not even available under high school age. It's good to hear there are schools out there excelling. My brother in another state is finishing at an excellent public high school. But just know that it isn't the norm everywhere. Teachers don't have the resources to teach a lot of the "extras" with high stakes testing nowadays. This is not an indictment of teachers, but of the system.

[Erin]

My dad never figured cursive out, either.   He can read very neat penmanship, but not the sloppy scrawl of most people.  He has never done anything but print.

 

He managed to not only graduate high school, as well as magna cum laude from college, but also second in his law school class.   He went on to be one of the most respected attorneys in his part of the state for 35 years.  Several times he was approached for judicial selection and even encouraged to run for legislature.  

 

 

 

I figure if Dad managed to scrape through life without cursive, everyone else probably can too.  ;)

[Miss Mousie]

My dad never figured cursive out, either.   He can read very neat penmanship, but not the sloppy scrawl of most people.  He has never done anything but print.

 

Heh.  You reminded me - my Dad had no problem reading cursive, but always wrote in printed caps.  I was in fifth grade, I think, before I realized he even knew *how* to write cursive, because he had to sign a permission slip when my Mom wasn't home.

 

:)  Thanks for bringing a pleasant memory to mind! 

[Arcadia]

 Teachers don't have the resources to teach a lot of the "extras" with high stakes testing nowadays. This is not an indictment of teachers, but of the system.

I do agree. Science and Math are teach to the test, there is no enrichment in my district unless the child is in a lottery school where there is math enrichment during class time. Some schools in my district have math enrichment and science enrichment as afterschool clubs that are sponsored and run by the PTA. Some schools also have better (more caring and efficient) principals and are hot favorites for open enrollment even though they are not lottery/magnet schools.  The difference in discipline (the basic courtesy kind) between schools in the same district can be very stark.

[Stellalarella]

Near our home there is a school for special needs children.  They only teach cursive from the earliest grades on up.  It's a challenge for these kiddos to learn to write and they choose not to teach two separate styles.  The flow of cursive is an aid to those who would have greater motor difficulty in repeatedly picking up the pencil from the paper.   

 

I think that behind the issue of some PS not teaching cursive is that some PS even find their time to teach printing tightly squeezed.  Go out and try to find a kid who can print neatly and hold a pencil correctly and then go hug that kid's teacher!  My son did some work soldering parts this summer--he was one of the people who could do it.  Another young man didn't solder because he couldn't hold the soldering iron--just like he couldn't hold a pencil.  Anecdote is not data, but I do think it would be a super fascinating study to find out if students (homeschool or brick and mortar) are finishing elementary school with legible handwriting.  :)  

 

Anyway, I am a fan of cursive, math facts and grammar!

 

[Excelsior! Academy]

Our ps has taken out cursive.

 

Cursive writing uses the same part of the brain as creating art. Drawing letters is an artistic skill. One might be able to function in society without it, but one is also blessed if able to learn such a skill.

[Audrey]

I have a hard time reading that, because I find the man to be lacking in most human attributes.

 

There is that, but, on the whole, I don't like to read most things that talk about what public schools are doing (whether right or wrong).  I homeschool in a manner that does not necessitate comparing our homeschool to any public schools.  I find most of those articles irrelevant -- unless, of course, I want to simply indulge in a bit of schadenfreude.

[Paula in PA]

My dd learned to write cursive using HWT. She could read that because the letters were, as she put it, "clearer" to her. She cannot read most other cursive, though, because she has synesthesia and the colors blend together, making it difficult or impossible for her to decipher them. We didn't even know she had it until just 2 years ago. Little things she'd said over the years finally started adding up and we made the connection. Our situation makes me wonder if other kids who can't read cursive could have similar issues.

While I agree, in general, with the "teach the basics" mantra outlined above, I think we need to be pragmatic every time we say it is really important to teach X, Y, or Z.  In isolation, it is easy to make the case that it is really important to teach all kinds of subjects.  But, here in the real world, there's a finite amount of time, and a real limit to the amount of study that any one kid can do.  So, as much as I'd like to have my kids learn a classical language, a couple of modern ones, read the Western Canon, study western civ, realize that "Eastern" civ is growing in importance, and should probably be taught too, learn math through calculus, and statistics, numeracy,  and discrete math also, do good, hands-on lab based sciences, understand how to apply technology, understand persuasive rhetoric, have enough P.E. to by physically fit, fathom economics, master philosophy, learn to write well, etc. etc. etc.; at some point you have to start ranking the desires, and dropping subjects that don't make the cut.

 

It is easy to say that "cursive is important".  I'm more interested in the tough conversations, such as "I'm skipping teaching keyboarding this year, and teaching cursive instead"  (or vice versa).  I certainly don't know the answers to all these questions, but I think it is much better to frame these in term of what you have to drop to add anything new in.  (But we ain't skipping our grammar, I can tell you that much)

[NASDAQ]

I have no idea how someone is supposed to know ''how to find information'' without knowing information. I am very good at looking things up, because I have a good memory, so I can make associations.

 

Skills can't be taught in isolation.

 

Diagramming sentences was gone by the time I entered school, and cursive I was aware was on the outs. I was surprised to learn, recently, the times tables are being forsaken as well at our local school.

[NASDAQ]

While I agree, in general, with the "teach the basics" mantra outlined above, I think we need to be pragmatic every time we say it is really important to teach X, Y, or Z.  In isolation, it is easy to make the case that it is really important to teach all kinds of subjects.  But, here in the real world, there's a finite amount of time, and a real limit to the amount of study that any one kid can do.  So, as much as I'd like to have my kids learn a classical language, a couple of modern ones, read the Western Canon, study western civ, realize that "Eastern" civ is growing in importance, and should probably be taught too, learn math through calculus, and statistics, numeracy,  and discrete math also, do good, hands-on lab based sciences, understand how to apply technology, understand persuasive rhetoric, have enough P.E. to by physically fit, fathom economics, master philosophy, learn to write well, etc. etc. etc.; at some point you have to start ranking the desires, and dropping subjects that don't make the cut.

 

It is easy to say that "cursive is important".  I'm more interested in the tough conversations, such as "I'm skipping teaching keyboarding this year, and teaching cursive instead"  (or vice versa).  I certainly don't know the answers to all these questions, but I think it is much better to frame these in term of what you have to drop to add anything new in.  (But we ain't skipping our grammar, I can tell you that much)

 

Our local schools aren't producing kids who type 80 wpm either.

 

[mamaraby]

I would strongly disagree with that. How do you learn rules of spelling and punctuation via speech? The vast majority of people do not speak as one writes in formal writing. Most people make glaring errors on a regular basis. My husband recently moved into a new job and made his new staff take down a bunch of signs with misspellings and punctuation errors. These are people with college degrees who are working in what equates to management jobs.

But if you read the quoted selection from the poster you choose all the way through, you'll see that she doesn't suggest that there should be *no* grammar instruction, but that for native English speakers, there is need for a great deal less. Not to mention the fact that intensive grammar instruction for a number of years including sentence diagraming does not guarantee that one will write well or use proper grammar. Otherwise, why does my husband who received just that rely upon me, who received quite a bit less and certainly no diagraming, as his living spelling and grammar checker?

 

Julie from Brave Writer makes a compelling case that for most native English speakers, what's needed is not more intensive grammar instruction, but less. She would suggest that a student, steeped in words, words, words could probably pick up a great deal of grammar when they learn a foreign language to supplement what they've already picked up by reading or being read to. Somewhere in the pages of hers that I've read, she includes the example of EB White, who wrote to book on grammar as it were, and yet did not necessarily follow his own guide when it came to his books. I doubt that you would argue his straying from *the book* made his works somehow less than.

 

I love the WTM and many of the old ways, but I don't think a literal minded one way of doing education suits the world in which we live for so many of the reasons already given by previous posters (especially when it comes to privilege and the ways in which education has been used as a tool of imperialist/colonialist aims). And yes, I will agree that there is evidence that cursive handwriting has a positive impact on the brain. However, because I do not think that human beings exist in a state of stasis, I suspect that we are continuing to evolve and change so that new pathways and changes are established in our digital, keyboard, touchscreen age that benefit the new ways. The difference is, we haven't found them yet.

 

ETA: The other thing that I dislike about the FB post in question is the great big boogie man distinction being made where all public schools are condensed down to the lowest common denominator. There may be that great big disclaimer at the top of the OP's post, but regardless of one's intentions, it's still the matter at hand as for as the FB post is concerned.

[poppy]

I think he's missing the point entirely. It's not that the young woman can't read cursive... she was not able to WRITE her own words. She dictated her story to a friend, who wrote it out for her.  "I can't read cursive" is right up there with "I forgot my glasses" as a semi-graceful way to get out of having to admit not being able to read.  

 

I don't think this is a case of a kid who texts on her smartphone too much to understand good old-fashioned schooling, it's the story of a student who got into high school while being basically functionally illiterate.

[albeto.]

. 

 

[mommymilkies]

NY has an advanced Regent's diploma path that includes an art option, so we still have band and art. Our AP teachers are the ones that were moved to remedial courses, with the AP courses being dropped. The school's resources are being put into sped, security, and remedial/alternative at the expense of on/above grade level nonESL children. It's quite typical for a college bound junior or senior to have two to five study halls because there are no academic courses available and the child doesn't want to sit in a gen ed art or food or child care class. Most affluent parents are giving their children internet access via phone or laptop so they can participate in online courses to make up for the school board's choices, if they don't sell and move to a better district.  In about three years, there will be no band as most of the band members are honors students and its become increasingly obvious that they need to attend a different district in order to get a college prep education. At thiis point in a 1900 student high school, we have seen so many students move away that the band is down to fifty people. Because of the state funding formulas, nothing is going to change until the school becomes a Title 1 school, which means these affluent families have to depart. I think that's the real tragedy..in a diverse area, with many poverty related special needs, the funding isn't there since it does not follow the student.

Poverty is an issue here, but that's not why we don't have funding.  We don't have funding because of the NCLB test scores, which is ironic since the schools in this county are among the highest ps ratings in the state.  Our state is bankrupt and they laid off 90 personnel 2 or so years ago.  Most of that was special ed.  Then anything extra had to go.  IDK if they've ever even offered AP classes here, and I know the high school I graduated in a college town not far away didn't offer them a decade ago.  I'm not sure about now, but I don't think so.  I had never even heard of AP classes until recently on here.  It's just not as common in rural areas, I guess.  

 

An hour away they had the same problem-my brother was Captain of swim team.  When he graduated, that program was cut along with a ton of others.  I saw it was happening all over the state, but I don't have details.  It's even affected the colleges. 

 

However, my oldest brother is a senior at a public hs in a VERY affluent county a few states away.  They have everything you can imagine. And my cousin who just graduated was in a very poor high school in that state that DID offer AP and she is brilliant.  She just got a full scholarship at a great university.  Part of the problem is how the state funding works.  

[msjones]

I put cursive in the same category as calligraphy, sketching a portrait, saddling a horse, using a switchboard, and chopping wood.

 

Wonderful skills to have, but not essential in this day and age.  

 

 

 

 

[klmama]

I think a lot of the time the problem with handwriting is lack of communication between levels in the schools.  There isn't always a clear, multi-year scope and sequence laid out for teaching basic skills, so teachers think someone else will take care of it.  For example, a friend's dc had to write in kindergarten, but the teacher didn't teach them how to form their letters properly.  She told my friend that the first grade teacher would cover that.  When the dc were in first grade, and it wasn't covered, friend asked the teacher why.  She said that the kindergarten teacher had covered letter formation.  Friend after-schooled handwriting practice.   Then, when they learned cursive in 3rd grade, they didn't have to write everything in cursive, so they didn't learn it well.  They covered it briefly again in 4th, but it wasn't required on all papers.  By 5th, it wasn't practiced in school at all, and by 6th her dc didn't even remember how to do it anymore.  She after-schooled that again.  This is in a "good" school district, by the way, one that people purposely move to because of the quality of the education. 

 

 

[regentrude]

I have many complaints about our public school - but they managed to teach cursive and multiplication facts. Too much generalization.

Btw, I know enough homeschoolers who can't write cursive and do not get a systematic math instruction either.

[Stellalarella]

I just got to thinking about the connection between handwriting skills and writing skills.  Whether it is brick and mortar school or homeschool, there seems to be a trend in teaching writing that has kiddos inventing their own thoughts and recording them at an early age.  My kids that went to public school started that kind of writing (with invented spelling) in kindergarden.  There was a great emphasis on how much content that they could turn out, but not a corresponding emphasis on proper sentence construction with good grammar, spelling, or legible writing.  Also, my kids had at least 1 hour a week in "computer lab," but in 6 years of schooling, they were not ever taught keyboarding skills.  This was a high ranking magnet school with some really great teachers.  

 

When we began to homeschool, I decided to go the classical route with influence from Charlotte Mason.  We began the little kids with copy work and narrations.  It is so easy to teach handwriting if one is using copy work for writing, grammar and reading instruction.  There really isn't need for much time spent on separate lessons.  Also, we learn spelling as we learn phonics with our AAS curriculum.  And then again, as the kids write out words and take sentence dictation for AAS, that is also an opportunity for legible handwriting practice.  I also decided that all my kids needed to learn keyboarding early on--something I didn't pick up until my sophomore year of high school.  

 

As I see it, the decline in time spent training children to print well or to use cursive is directly related to the trend in current reading and writing instruction practices.  Of course, this also piggy-backs with a keyboard focused culture.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stellalarella]

I think that people who are naturally change-adverse tend not to see the "up side" of various things/skills sliding out if usage, while other things/skills become more relevant and commonplace. Also, people learn differently.  

 

Math "facts" are great for verbal learners who rely on memorization. On the other hand, "How numbers work, and how to 'do' minor calculations instead of just jumping to a 'known' answer." -- is also a valid style of instruction.

 

We aren't memorizing the names and dates of the royal families if Europe any more are we? Or geometry from Euclid? (Well, maybe some!) Yet that was once basic (at least in Canada it was).

 

If this man really thinks that grammar, times tables and cursive writing are the adaptive skills needed for a post EMP world -- and if that's really the only scenario that he can think of for the skills to become highly relevant again... Well, I beg your pardon, but I question the logic of calling those skills 'basic'.

 

 

I was thinking about what you are saying here--about people learning differently, need for math facts to be memorized.

 

This summer I read "Why Kids Don't LIke School," a book that compiles and distills decades of research on cognitive psychology.  The author shows how our brains have a limited "space" for thinking (processing).  We are able to increase our processing ability as we are able to store facts for quick recall.  Not having math facts down  leaves a kiddo without enough processing space to be able to think through a problem.  Or, the kid (person) could slog through the problem eventually, but the thinking process was so arduous that she doesn't want to do it again.  

 

I'm becoming a fan of giving my kids plenty of instruction in the how and why conceptual math, but I'm also making sure they know their facts.  

 

The author also delves into "learning styles" research.  Basically, people learn the modality for what they need--when you need to remember something that is a sound, that's how you store the memory (someone's voice).  When you need visual recall (an icon for an app), that's how you store the memory.  When you need to remember how something feels, that's how your brain stores it.  In short, we need to store things in memory for how we are going to use them.  

 

I personally haven't read any research about cursive (and it would be great if someone could post some links on that).  I do think it would be interesting to find out if people are able to distill their thoughts into writing easier by using a writing utensil when they are first learning to write.  I also wonder how good a writer a student could be if they had extremely poor keyboarding skills.  The first step in writing is formulating the thought, then forming it into a sentence and then putting it down on paper or on screen.  If someone doesn't have good transcribing skills, it would seem to be really difficult to remember the sentence  while simultaneously struggling through the transcription (print, cursive or keyboard.)  Because of this, I see how it is very important to spend time making sure students are skilled at printing (and/or cursive) and keyboarding.