Parenting WWYD?

[Plateau Mama]

At the beginning of the school year my DD (12) asked to go on a student trip put on by her Social Studies teacher thru the Smithsonian. It's an amazing trip. 9 days on the East Coast, Boston, New York, Wash D.C, etc. The teacher has done this trip 6-7 times. For Christmas we gave her the trip on the condition that she did her chores and kept her grades up. This was not her only present. It was more of a, we are going to give it her may as well put it in her stocking, kind of thing.

 

Fast forward to now. For some reason she's decided that turning in work on time is optional. For example in LA out of 41 assignments 17 have been late. There are no consequences for late work in any of her classes. First semester she had all A's. I have no idea what her grades will end up being because she has so many late assignments and most of the teachers are slow to grade. She gets 2 things graded then has a new mising assignment. I can't keep up.

 

So her grades are fluctuating drastically from day to day. For example last week she had a D in LA, this week it's a B. Shes had an A in SS all year, today it dropped to a C+. Our rule is nothing below a B with an overall GPA of 3.6. As for he chores she hasn't done them AT ALL unless we hound her. She doesn't have a lot (recycle, keep room clean, clean up dog poop 1x week)

 

So today we told her no trip. We are thinking that in the future she will know we will follow thru if she doesn't hold up her end. My mom thinks she will be mad at us forever and we should just let her go. This really surprises me because my mom was the queen of consequences and I never got away with anything.

 

WWYD? I can cancel until the day of the trip and get all but $250 back.

[Guest submarines]

I'd let her go, and consider this lesson learned--I'd be more clear about my intentions and expectations in the future.

 

You gave it to her for Christmas, so this must be a gift. If it was a gift, there shouldn't be strings attached. Gifts are gifts, and they aren't conditional.

 

If it wasn't a gift, but was instead conditional on certain things, then it was a mistake to give it as a Christmas gift.

 

Either way, this is a situation where the parent need to backtrack and explain that a mistake were made. IMHO, it makes mores sense to apologize for attaching conditions to a gift, instead of explaining that it wasn't a gift, after all.

[NotSoObvious]

First of all, your mom is now Grandma. She's a new person. ;)

 

Second, it sounds like the school set up makes it hard to tie a consequence to school work. She's 12. She still needs adults helping her manage and it sounds like the school dropped the ball on their end.

 

Finally, I think not doing chores deserves immediate attention, not the removal of a privilege in the future. That's just my opinion.

 

There would be very few things that would warrant me taking a trip like this away because of the educational benefits it offers. It's not like they are going to a theme park for the day. I realize it's a big treat and it is expensive, but there is no way I'd take it away for what you described, especially at only 12 years old (at 16 it would be another story).

 

That's just my opinion and it's always easy to say what I'd do when I'm not the one dealing with the behaviors.

[xixstar]

My opinion - I think the requirement is too broad and far reaching for a 12 year old. I think for my junior it would be a challenge too. I think I wouldn't make the trip contingent on something like that can almost be guaranteed to fail (especially if this is typical behavior for your child, it is for mine). Instead I would address all this late work and chores in a more immediate way (ie. right now my teen lost social time because she had stopped turning in her school work).

 

ETA: I would tell my child that I realize in hindsight that my expectations and connections with the trip were unreasonable. That I think it is a valuable trip to attend and am still interested in her going. However, there would be x expectations/consequences for not turning in school work and for chores. I'm assuming there are other things she'd be more pressured to loose/miss out on right now instead of having to give up some future event.

 

I feel I failed at something at a similar age with oldest when I told dd that she had to earn some really large amount to attend a summer program the following year. I knew she was not good at following through on earning money and lacked motivation and I thought offering this large incentive, a program that she *loved* greatly, would be the magic ticket to help her over that hump. I was wrong, she missed out on the trip that I realized in hindsight it was an experience I wish she hadn't missed and that I had funded it anyways because of the many benefits it offered. In the end, I feel like I'm the only one that learned anything from that experience: a giant carrot is not a magic solution to an ongoing concern with my child.

[justasque]

Honestly, I think it's something you should have considered before you tied the Christmas present trip to her school performance to begin with.

 

I tend to believe such educational trips are part of my children's education, and not "extra" or dependent on grades.

 

Non-educational trips are a different thing, and frankly we usually skip them in able to afford more of the educational variety.

[Anne in CA]

^{I do think cancelling would be reasonable, however, my mom let me go on a similar trip when my grades were bad at her age and I was not ruined. I do think that teacher's being slow to grade caused me to think that the work would not be corrected and was not important. Teachers go so slowly grading papers at the end of the year that it can be very discouraging. Also, toward the end of the year they lose some in their huge stacks :glare: , so she may not be as far behind as you think. I would talk to her and if she really wants to go I would have her sit at the table with homework after school every day until dinner doing home work and consider that my due diligence.}

[elfgivas]

when we have set something up to fail, and it does, then one thing we have done is to say to the child in question:

well, these were the conditions. you haven't met them. perhaps they ought not to have been the conditions, so we're prepared to give you a chance to earn the trip back if you'd still like to go. why don't you think about what you might do to earn it back, write those things down with specifics, and then we'll talk about it together after dinner. do you know what we mean by specifics? well, instead of "practice my violin" it would be "practice my violin for a half hour before lunch and a half hour before dinner each day except sunday, when i'll practice after lunch and before dinner". we'll make a list too, and then we can choose a few things from the combined list. does that sound like a good idea?

 

and then everyone saves face, but its not a free-bee, either...

[jewellsmommy]

That is a difficult situation, but these are my immediate thoughts:

I know you set guidelines such as grades/chores to this a trip but, it was also a present. This trip is not like a device that can be removed and given back like a game system. You may remove a child's access to a Wii when they really want it in order to discipline etc. but they get it back when they prove themselves therefore the present is never void. Missing a trip is very different. So, for me, the fact that this trip is also tied to a present makes it a little harder to judge, especially with so much time between the two. I could promise my dd a pony to be given in December for hr 11th birthday present in June provided that she do xyz. I can almost guarantee that at some point between now and then, she will mess up enough for me to revoke that pony.

 

However,

 

9 days is a long time and by the nature of the trip it sounds as though the kids going need to show themselves capable of responsibility, and your dd failed to prove herself responsible. I would tell my dd that I am concerned about her going because she has not shown herself to be responsible to her word. If I cant trust you at home, I can't trust you out of my care either.

 

Have you counseled her along the way that the trip was at stake if she did not correct these problems as they were occuring? If not, then it is a lot to expect her to self correct at this age over this long a time.

 

And...Rather the work was late or not was not part of the deal. If you said grades and chores, then stick with grades and chores. You can't change the deal now, so if the grades come back good then it doesn't matter that the teachers should have 'punished' her for tardy work and didn't. Deal with that separately.

[Garga]

When is the trip? Is there time for her to earn it back with chores?

 

What helps did you have in place to help her be disciplined with her job duties? Did you gave her a checklist? Have you taught her how to create and follow a strong routine? Did you remind her from time to time that she was close to losing the trip?

 

I'd find a way for her to earn it back, being sure you've given her the tools to succeed (charts, calendar, whatever else you can think of.)

 

Maybe your mom regrets something like this that she did to you and is speaking from a position of experience.

[Plateau Mama]

First of all, your mom is now Grandma. She's a new person. ;)

Second, it sounds like the school set up makes it hard to tie a consequence to school work. She's 12. She still needs adults helping her manage and it sounds like the school dropped the ball on their end.

Finally, I think not doing chores deserves immediate attention, not the removal of a privilege in the future. That's just my opinion.

There would be very few things that would warrant me taking a trip like this away because of the educational benefits it offers. It's not like they are going to a theme park for the day. I realize it's a big treat and it is expensive, but there is no way I'd take it away for what you described, especially at only 12 years old (at 16 it would be another story).

That's just my opinion and it's always easy to say what I'd do when I'm not the one dealing with the behaviors.

My mom is usually the one to tell me I'm to soft on the kids. ;-) So, while she is a grandma, she still plays by the same rules. She is not soft in her discipline with them either. Yes, she lets things slide with them that she wouldn't with me, but she s still firm.

 

I have tried everything possible over the years and she just won't do her chores w/o nagging. She as been grounded for a month for her grades & chores and she just doesn't care.

Instead I would address all this late work and chores in a more immediate way (ie. right now my teen lost social time because she had stopped turning in her school work).

ETA: I would tell my child that I realize in hindsight that my expectations and connections with the trip were unreasonable. That I think it is a valuable trip to attend and am still interested in her going. However, there would be x expectations/consequences for not turning in school work and for chores. I'm assuming there are other things she'd be more pressured to loose/miss out on right now instead of having to give up some future event.

I feel I failed at something at a similar age with oldest when I told dd that she had to earn some really large amount to attend a summer program the following year. I knew she was not good at following through on earning money and lacked motivation and I thought offering this large incentive, a program that she *loved* greatly, would be the magic ticket to help her over that hump. I was wrong, she missed out on the trip that I realized in hindsight it was an experience I wish she hadn't missed and that I had funded it anyways because of the many benefits it offered. In the end, I feel like I'm the only one that learned anything from that experience: a giant carrot would be a magic solution to an ongoing concern with my child.

We are addressing the grades. We sit down with her every day to go over what she has to do etc. I've been in contact with her teachers for the last two weeks. She does 90% of the work, she just doesn't turn it in. She turns it in the day after I learn its late. She is an A student. The workload is not an issue she just does not feel its important to turn in on time. If she couldn't turn in late work this wouldn't be an issue she admits it.

 

Thank you for your input on missing out. This is exactly what we did. Dangled this great experience and were sure shed follow thru. Now I'm in a catch-22. Ugh.

^{Teachers go so slowly grading papers at the end of the year that it can be very discouraging. Also, toward the end of the year they lose some in their huge stacks :glare: , so she may not be as far behind as you think. I would talk to her and if she really wants to go I would have her sit at the table with homework after school every day until dinner doing home work and consider that my due diligence.}

They have been slow all year! Right now she has assignments that have been turned in for over 2 months that haven't been graded. I checked with the teacher and they've been turned in.

 

I have been sitting with her for two weeks and I feel like we are treading water. I've done everything I can to help her but I'm exhausted and she's showing no initiative to stay caught up.

[xixstar]

I totally understand the frustration with an A student losing points like this -- I soooooo understand. My A student child has a D in two classes for just not turning in the work -- after maintaining As the rest of the year. And her consolation response 'it'll average out into a C' -- oh yeah dear, that makes it all better, sigh. Again, I so realize the frustration.

[Plateau Mama]

when we have set something up to fail, and it does, then one thing we have done is to say to the child in question:

well, these were the conditions. you haven't met them. perhaps they ought not to have been the conditions, so we're prepared to give you a chance to earn the trip back if you'd still like to go. why don't you think about what you might do to earn it back, write those things down with specifics, and then we'll talk about it together after dinner. do you know what we mean by specifics? well, instead of "practice my violin" it would be "practice my violin for a half hour before lunch and a half hour before dinner each day except sunday, when i'll practice after lunch and before dinner". we'll make a list too, and then we can choose a few things from the combined list. does that sound like a good idea?

and then everyone saves face, but its not a free-bee, either...

I feel the expectations were clear, except maybe the "clean room", but she honestly didn't even try. All we were lo oking for on the chores was effor, not perfection. I will talk your idea over with DH. Saying that I feel we've given chance after chance and she just not putting any effort in.

 

 

9 days is a long time and by the nature of the trip it sounds as though the kids going need to show themselves capable of responsibility, and your dd failed to prove herself responsible. I would tell my dd that I am concerned about her going because she has not shown herself to be responsible to her word. If I cant trust you at home, I can't trust you out of my care either.

Have you counseled her along the way that the trip was at stake if she did not correct these problems as they were occuring? If not, then it is a lot to expect her to self correct at this age over this long a time.

And...Rather the work was late or not was not part of the deal. If you said grades and chores, then stick with grades and chores. You can't change the deal now, so if the grades come back good then it doesn't matter that the teachers should have 'punished' her for tardy work and didn't. Deal with that separately.

I trust her behavior on this trip. She is not a bad child. She's just lazy when its not something she wants to do.

 

We did counsel her. We reminded her often of the expectations. She was/is clear on what we expect. She knows she doesn't deserve to go. Turning in work was part of the good grades. She knew this. We specifically discussed this because she does ths an extent every year. This year has, by far, been the worst for turning work in.

 

When is the trip? Is there time for her to earn it back with chores?

What helps did you have in place to help her be disciplined with her job duties? Did you gave her a checklist? Have you taught her how to create and follow a strong routine? Did you remind her from time to time that she was close to losing the trip?

I'd find a way for her to earn it back, being sure you've given her the tools to succeed (charts, calendar, whatever else you can think of.)

Maybe your mom regrets something like this that she did to you and is speaking from a position of experience.

When is the trip? July 3rd

 

What helps did you have in place to help her be disciplined with her job duties? We remind her when something hasn't been done, we check her planner/grade website with her daily, we check her room and point out what still needs to be picked up. (We look for vacuum ready, not model home).

 

Did you gave her a checklist? Yes. I even at one point put times on the checklist so she old see there was plenty of time to get things done. I've helped her make prioritized lists for her late work so she would know what to work on each step of the way.

 

Have you taught her how to create and follow a strong routine? Been trying for years. ;-)

 

Did you remind her from time to time that she was close to losing the trip? Yes

 

[Plateau Mama]

Im just wondering, would your answers be different if it weren't a "present"?

 

I know it was put in her stocking, but she knew from the get go that we just presented it that way for fun. If we hadn't given it in her stocking she wouldn't have gotten anything more. She got several other, very nice gifts. Even without the trip I spent more on her than on my boys.

[Plateau Mama]

I think the conditions were reasonable (min Bs and chores) and attainable by a 12yo. Since she hasn't held up her end of the deal, she shouldn't go. It's not like you just now told her what the terms were - she knew back in Dec what the consequence would be for not keeping up her grades or completing her chores.

 

If you allow her to go, you are setting the example not only to her, but to your other children that the conditions are irrelevant. I think this is a bigger lesson that what she would learn if she got to go on the trip. She may be mad at you, but that's the bed she made every time she didn't do her chores or let her grades slip.

 

Thanks. This is how I feel exactly. She knew the deal, she knew the consequences. I feel letting her go sets the precedence that our rules don't matter.

 

But now after reading replies maybe I did dangle a carrot hoping she'd rise to the occasion. (On the chores, never expected the grades to be an issue.)

[katilac]

I'll toss out a slightly different idea: it sounds like this is new behavior for your dd; might she be worried about going on the trip? Nine day is a very long trip to take without mom or dad. I can see my kids being excited by the idea, but then frightened by the reality as it gets closer. You refer the behavior as 'sudden,' and say that she is doing the work but not turning it in. I would definitely consider that she may be subconsciously sabotaging herself.

 

I would do as others have suggested, and have a talk with her that includes an apology for somewhat mixing up the idea of a gift and a trip that has to be earned. Then I would say that I did want to give her the chance to be responsible and earn the trip back, but gently suggest that might not be what she wants, and that's okay. I'm not going to be mad if I lose a deposit b/c you changed your mind - maybe you would prefer to wait? Take a shorter family trip? Whatever options you can think of.

[bolt.]

If you can cancel right up to the date if the trip, I suggest that you let her work to earn it back right up to that time. Have some sort of indicatior in your home that says "the trip is off" or "the trip is on" -- define exactly what kind of success from this point forward will turn the decision back to "on" and how it can be maintained.

 

It is very much not your DD fault that her school has taught her that there is no real reason to do things on time. It's ridiculous, but she isn't the one who has made it that way. If the teachers neither penalize lateness, nor have an incentive for promptness, not give timely feedback on assignments -- that makes students adjust their working style. You won't be able to successfully tell her "this matters" when her experiences are clearly saying that it just isn't so.

[Plateau Mama]

I'll toss out a slightly different idea: it sounds like this is new behavior for your dd; might she be worried about going on the trip? Nine day is a very long trip to take without mom or dad. I can see my kids being excited by the idea, but then frightened by the reality as it gets closer. You refer the behavior as 'sudden,' and say that she is doing the work but not turning it in. I would definitely consider that she may be subconsciously sabotaging herself.

I would do as others have suggested, and have a talk with her that includes an apology for somewhat mixing up the idea of a gift and a trip that has to be earned. Then I would say that I did want to give her the chance to be responsible and earn the trip back, but gently suggest that might not be what she wants, and that's okay. I'm not going to be mad if I lose a deposit b/c you changed your mind - maybe you would prefer to wait? Take a shorter family trip? Whatever options you can think of.

 

Hmmm. I agree that she is sabotaging herself, but I don't think it's the trip that's the problem. She is very independent. Her best friend is also going on the trip. Hmm, I will have. Feel this one out some more. Thanks.

 

It is very much not your DD fault that her school has taught her that there is no real reason to do things on time. It's ridiculous, but she isn't the one who has made it that way. If the teachers neither penalize lateness, nor have an incentive for promptness, not give timely feedback on assignments -- that makes students adjust their working style. You won't be able to successfully tell her "this matters" when her experiences are clearly saying that it just isn't so.

 

I agree. It's hard to say "these are the house rules" when the school says different. It's also hard to tech her that late work in a job will get you fired when she sees no consequences at her "job". I m thinking about asking the principal hat their thought is behind this. Other middle school does penalize for late work. This is going to be a tough lesson for her to learn in High school.

[Lilaclady]

I think it is really hard to enforce something when the schools are saying something different. I also do not like the idea of using it as a gift with strings attached. I have told my dd sometimes that she will get a gift if certain requirements are met but once she gets the gift, that is it. I do not attach any string to it. I will say let her go but she has to work up till the time of the trip. It is a very educational trip that might impact her in many ways.

[Laurie4b]

Any chance she has ADD? The symptoms are different in girls. Just something to think about, not the whole point.

If teachers don't grade work promptly, they are contributing greatly to her perception that it doesn't matter. Again, not the whole point, but when the adults aren't diligent and don't get their work done on time, they're modeling for the child.

If you have been putting that much emphasis on these behaviors, either 1) she doesn't care about the trip or 2) she can't put together "my little misbehavior today = no big reward in distant future." That is partly age, but it's also one of things that made me ask about ADD (the other two issues you brought up are related to having difficulty with stuff that is boring and ADD follks have more difficulty with that than nonADD folks. If she can get good grades on tests without doing the work, it's not really necessary for *her* so it's essentially busy work. Same with chores. )

 

It sounds like for your dd, immediate consequences are necessary.

 

One of the very best chores to assign her is doing her own laundry because if you do absolutely nothing, she has to deal with all the consequences herself. If she doesn't do it, she has no clean clothes. You don't have to do anything about it. No nagging, no nothing. Just don't do her laundry. Ever. My kids started when they were 11 (all boys.) The oldest said, "None of my friends' parents make them do laundry."

" This is the way our family does it"

"Well I'm not doing it."

"Okay, but I'm not either." (The parent has to be prepared to let their child wear dirty clothes if need be, but in my experience, that doesn't last long and most kids won't let it get that far once they realize you are truly not going to do it. )

 

Other chores aren't as easy, so you have to have something like no chores = no fun. But that also means parents don't take on the burden of trying to "help" her have fun. To you, it's no skin off your teeth--ho hum---no big deal, no lectures, no nagging, no negotiating , no arguing, just no. Friends are going to the mall? "That sounds like fun, but the dishwasher wasn't emptied this morning when it was supposed to be, so that won't be possible." Matter of fact tone of voice. (It's too late at the time of the outing. It was supposed to have already been done.) Want to do something entertaining? (DVD, whatever she likes to do for recreation). Is your bed made and your floor picked up? No? No DVD then. Walk away.

[Joker]

I would never give my young teen a 'gift' in December that requires them to do or behave a certain way until July to receive. It would be setting us all up for failure. My 13 yr dd is in ps and most teachers have a very lax policy on work/late work. She hands 95% of it in on time right now. I could see how it might become a bit much if she struggled in this area and then I laid down a big reward at the end of six/seven months. Once she got behind she might feel overwhelmed or defeated and it could go downhill.

[hillfarm]

When I am confused about what to do with my 14yo dd, I try to block out her words and see what her actions are telling me. IMO, your dd's actions clearly say that she is not all that excited about the trip. Whether it's the stress of the trip, just not her thing, or perhaps she didn't believe you would really make the conditions stick, the bottom line is that it is not motivating enough to her to cause her to hold up her end of the deal. Or even to seriously attempt to do so but fail a bit.

 

I would cancel the trip.

 

I would also talk to her about all the issues and the fact that her actions will always speak more loudly than her words. For example, if you tell someone you love them but your actions say otherwise, they do not perceive they are loved. If you say you value some possession but you are not careful with it, you are demonstrating that it is not really important enough for you to put it away properly or maintain it well. You may tell your boss you want the job, but if your actions show that you don't want to do it, you may well find yourself unemployed. If, as in this case, you say you want to go but you do not make good on your end of the deal, your actions say that it wasn't truly very important to you.

 

I believe there is way too much insincerity in the world. Talk is so cheap. But actions reveal the truth of a situation. Even if the actions are not completely successful, they still give an indication of where a person's heart lies. I think this could be an important life lesson about being truthful with one's self and with others. I imagine there will likely be the obligatory cries of outrage and hideous unfairness if you announce that the trip is cancelled. And I suspect that you as the parent will lament its loss. However, IMO, the lessons that could be taught here would have far more benefit than the trip.

[Murphy101]

I wouldn't make a gift tied to grades and chores to begin with. Either give the gift or don't.

 

I wouldn't have told her the trio was a no go until all the grades were in. (and what the what?! Teachers need to do their job, which includes grading within a reasonable timeframe to be useful for feedback and such. I'd be ticked at that ridiculousness. In my experience, students cannot be expected to be more dedicated or responsible than their teachers.)

 

But you did do those things, so you either need to:

 

Suck it up and admit they were a mistake and let her go anyways.

 

Or

 

Decide to stick to what you said, regardless of hindsight knowledge.

 

Personally, I'd tell her that I'm sorry I made something intended as a gift into just another hurdle to jump through.

 

I'd attribute whatever normal consequence you have for bad grades for the grades she ends up with and leave it at that.

 

[Plateau Mama]

.

One of the very best chores to assign her is doing her own laundry because if you do absolutely nothing, she has to deal with all the consequences herself. If she doesn't do it, she has no clean clothes. You don't have to do anything about it. No nagging, no nothing. Just don't do her laundry. Ever. My kids started when they were 11 (all boys.) The oldest said, "None of my friends' parents make them do laundry."

" This is the way our family does it"

"Well I'm not doing it."

"Okay, but I'm not either." (The parent has to be prepared to let their child wear dirty clothes if need be, but in my experience, that doesn't last long and most kids won't let it get that far once they realize you are truly not going to do it. )

 

 

Ha! She's been dong her own laundry for the last 6 months or so because she wouldn't fold it in a timely manner after washed it. She absolutely doesn't care about wearing dirty clothes. She's gone a month w/o washing her clothes. I then heled her get caught up. I didn't do it for her but I set a timer and reminded her every hour to switch & fold.

I'll toss out a slightly different idea: it sounds like this is new behavior for your dd; might she be worried about going on the trip? Nine day is a very long trip to take without mom or dad. I can see my kids being excited by the idea, but then frightened by the reality as it gets closer.

 

 

i talked with her. She's not too heartbroken about losing the trip. She still wants to go, but she had to think about it. He best friend might not get to go either, if her math grade doesn't improve. I told her to think about if she really wanted to go or not. If she does she needs to come up with a list of things she will do to prove she wants to go. I also told her if he grades aren't acceptable (and she knows what that is) the deal is off no matter what. (She is easily in reach of the grades. She had them Friday and as dropped as of today.)

[Chris in VA]

I'm not sure what I'd do.

Whatever you decide about the trip, is there a trip she can go to another year, when she's older? It does kinda sound like she's not really wanting to go.

 

As far as chores, when motivational things like "carrots" (be they stickers or trips or toys or whatever) don't work, and leaving kids alone doesn't work (kid doesn't care about clean clothes, so doesn't wash them), i like to work beside them, doing chores together. Not, "You go clean your room and I'll check on you in 10 minutes--I'll clean the bathroom meanwhile..." but really together, in the same room, working on nearly the same task ("You dust this table while I dust this one"). Something about working beside each other seems to keep momentum going and gets things done. It gives talking time, too, because when hands are busy sometimes mouths will open! lol Connecting is important to me, even if it's connecting thru chores. The attitude is far more friendly and kind in our house when dd and I work side by side than when we each have our own list of git-er-dones.

[kiwik]

Don't know. Yes it would definately be different if it hadn't been a Christmas present. It does sound like she is a bit doubtful about going though.

 

On the work side. It is my opinion that it is part of the student/teacher contract for work to be marked and returned in a timely manner. To me this means far enough in advance of the due date for the next piece of work to be able to learn from previous mistakes. An example of this is at university our previous week's lab books were returned the day before we completed the current week's lab (reports were due the day after). If there is a two month lag this really needs to be addressed, starting with the teacher and going as high as need be. It does not help anyone to make the same mistake 5 times because you haven't received feedback on the first mistake.

 

JMO but it is one I feel strongly about.

[Laurie4b]

She will care about wearing dirty clothes when one of her friends says something, but if you aren't willing to let her go there, then it won't work. One of my four boys recycled for a while, too. I just ignored it. He eventually did it.

[Garga]

Ok, then. After reading that you've tried to help her suceed, you warned her that the trip was at stake and she still didn't do what you asked, I wouldn't let her go.

 

The only thing is that I'd let her try to earn it back. I would write up a contract with her in writing and create a daily schedule of jobs for her to do. If she fulfills her end of the contract she can go. If not, she doesn't. I'd make it all as concrete as possible, so it's clear whether she earned it back or not.

[Plateau Mama]

She will care about wearing dirty clothes when one of her friends says something, but if you aren't willing to let her go there, then it won't work. One of my four boys recycled for a while, too. I just ignored it. He eventually did it.

 

Well, I thought she got overwhelmed at the pile. I was teaching her that even if she gets behind she an still get caught up in a day if she focuses. I didn't wash, dry or fold. I just set a timer every hour. My 11 yo doesn't have issues getting his laundry done.

 

None of her friends care about clean clothes so peer pressure isn't going to work (yet).

[Danestress]

I would let her know the trip is in jeopardy and exactly what she needs to do to remedy the situation (turn in every piece of homework, for starters, regardless is how late).

 

I would not allow this to get deflected as someone else's fault (or your for not supervising, the teachers' for being slow to grade). 12 year olds know whether homework has been turned in on time. There is very little in the world that is the sole responsibility of a 12 year old, but getting assignments in in time is one thing that really is her own problem.

[Plateau Mama]

Ok, then. After reading that you've tried to help her suceed, you warned her that the trip was at stake and she still didn't do what you asked, I wouldn't let her go.

The only thing is that I'd let her try to earn it back. I would write up a contract with her in writing and create a daily schedule of jobs for her to do. If she fulfills her end of the contract she can go. If not, she doesn't. I'd make it all as concrete as possible, so it's clear whether she earned it back or not.

 

I gave her today to think about it. I told her either way was fine. I told her that if she wanted to still go she needed to come up with some ideas on what she can do to earn it back and we will make a list. I said if grades weren't where they needed to be then there was no trip under any circumstance. I verified her BFF is going on the trip but the BFF doesn't know yet because not knowing is motivating her to work on her grade.

[Tita Gidge]

Like others, I wouldn't have tied a "gift" to any expectation of output on the receiver's end. My husband grew up in a family where gifts were usually tied to obligations, and I don't see them as being any better off for it. My kids respectfully but routinely turn down gifts from his parents because there's some hoop to jump through, and they feel it's insulting. I'm not a fan of dangling carrots, but I can see how sometimes it might be necessary or motivational; never, though, in relation to a gift. So yes, my answer is influenced by the fact that this trip was offered as a Christmas gift.

 

Contracts are conditional. Gifts are not.

 

I have kids this age right now (11, 12, 13) plus older kids. This is a frustrating age to parent. It's frustrating to parent ANY age where we feel we're offering great incentives for reasonable expectations .... and the kid doesn't bite. But truthfully, I think it's a kid's prerogative. In effect, you were saying that if she kept her grades up, she'd get a trip. (You probably have reasonable expectations of good grades independent of this trip, but the 12 year old mind, especially once spring weather hits LOL, eventually morphs it into oh, I only have to keep up my grades if I want to go on the trip!)

 

You set the stage that her grades were negotiable (essentially, you entered a contract with her). She's decided she doesn't want the trip badly enough, whether it's because she's lazy about school or her friend mightn't be going or whatever. She may be doing it on purpose, but she generally may not care about her grades at all. It seems that this sentiment is somewhat echoed by the lax expectations of her school. Of my three this age, two attend public middle school and one is doing middle school at home - so I'm familiar with the challenge of home-expectations unsupported by school-expectations.

 

I'd be honest with her, and truthfully - I'd leave the decision re: the trip up to her.

 

I'd say Look, I never should have tied this trip expectations of behavior on your end for many reasons, least of all a gift is a gift, not a contract. But nor are your grades and chores negotiable. We'll definitely be addressing the issues of grades and chores in the very near future, independent of anything else. In the meanwhile, I'm offering a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for you. Despite everything, I'll let you decide whether or not you go on [or have earned] this trip. Don't answer now, think it over. I'll need an answer by [this date].

 

Start giving her some insight into your frame of mind as a parent. Don't accept an immediate answer, turn this into an exercise where she might mature some by thinking over it. Word it to your family's culture or your preference ("whether or not to go" versus "whether or not you have earned" - though I prefer the former, since it was a gift) and say it sincerely. Mean it sincerely, since hopefully this is a lesson for you as well.

 

But honestly, this would be a great trip. I've done it with my own kids and one son's school did something similar (Boston, NYC). I'm a big believer in this type of learning and seeing what they've studied. It's whets the appetite and is truly worth more (on many levels, not just academically) than digging in heels on the off-chance she thinks this one episode will set some kind of precedence. You seem confident in your parenting style, enough to admit a mistake and not make it again - she should know that about you well enough to know this will be an exception. The main precedence that will set is how to gracefully admit a poor call in judgement, and rectify it. Not a bad thing IMO. I know this from experience LOL. I'm a slower learner, though ;)

 

Your mom may be a bit dramatic about this, but I agree with the poster who said it's probably because she's reflecting on some of her own hard-ass lines ... and realizing maybe they didn't all have to be drawn.

 

Hard decision, here - good luck however you handle it. 12 year olds can be so trying - especially when we feel we're not asking them to hang the moon or cure hunger.

[Plateau Mama]

I would let her know the trip is in jeopardy and exactly what she needs to do to remedy the situation (turn in every piece of homework, for starters, regardless is how late).

I would not allow this to get deflected as someone else's fault (or your for not supervising, the teachers' for being slow to grade). 12 year olds know whether homework has been turned in on time. There is very little in the world that is the sole responsibility of a 12 year old, but getting assignments in in time is one thing that really is her own problem.

 

Trust me every piece if work is being turned in, even the 3 math assignments that don't count towards her grade. I'm not passing the blame. I have checked grades/assignments every Thursday all year. When she started letting things go i switched to checking daily. I would never have expected to get 10 late assignments in one day, but that is what happened. If the teachers were grading or even just updating that assignments were in this would not have happended, but it did and I've said nothing about it to my daughter. Actually what I've told her is that the teachers shouldn't have to jump to grade late work and she will always get a better grade for the same paper turned in on time because teachers don't like to grade late work.

[catz]

I'm late to this thread, but I personally wouldn't have set an educational trip as a reward and especially not as a gift. She might learn and be inspired more on that trip than anything she's done in the classroom all year. If it were a trip to a beach or a water park with a BFF, I might feel differently. Not that I would allow slacking at school either. It sounds like maybe you're coming around to a good compromise.

[swellmomma]

You gave it to her as a xmas present, gifts should be unconditional and your mom is right imo. If you take it away now you will do nothing more than ruin your relationship with her and make the teen years so much harder, because honestly she will figure what's the point. I grew up with a mom that did (and continues to) make everything conditional/with strings attached. There is pretty much no relationship there, never was, never will be.

 

Now if you had not given it as a gift in her stocking, and she failed to uphold her end of the deal than my answer would be different, but it was, so now you have to follow through on that, because gifts shouldn't come with strings/conditions.

 

As for the homework not turned in, or chores not done, MANY 12 yr olds need constant reminders. They hit puberty and their brains fall out and things they were perfectly responsible for before are suddenly forgetten. If she was 16-17 and wasn't getting homework turned in, and wasn't doing chores etc as long as it wasn't given as a gift my answer would be different. But a) at 12 those assignments/grades have little standing. That is NOT to say they shouldn't be taken seriously, but really it's not they affect the high school transcript, and personally I think you dropped the ball mom. Back about assignment 2 or 3 forgotten/not turned in you needed to step up monitoring and enforcement because clearly this was an area she was struggling. If she was an A student previously and this is new it sounds like she needed some help with learning to stay organized(using a planner to write out homework due, and having you check that she did it, and had it in her bag to go back to school for example). b ) chores, well I don't know many kids of that age that don't need reminders to get going on them, yes they are required for family living, but I don't know many kids who won't procrastinate and push them off until the last minute/mom blows a gasket. and lastly c) it is an educational trip. This isn't a trip to lay on the beach in mexico with a family friend. It is a heck of trip with the teacher etc. Honestly she is not going to come back from her trip with the thought of "woo hoo I pulled the wool over mom's eyes and got to do what I wanted" she will come back with a new perspective for sure, and will know that gifts are freely given even if you mess up. And I personally think the lessons learned in those 9 days will outweigh what she would have learned in the classroom if she did those missing 17 assignments. Life experience trumps busywork imo(which is what I consider most homework before high school)

[Tammyla]

I'm just not crazy about conditional gifts, especially those that are long term and likely to fail.

 

It sounds like she needs nagging; some kids just do.

 

 

Your decision isn't going to be an easy one.

[Plateau Mama]

 

That is NOT to say they shouldn't be taken seriously, but really it's not they affect the high school transcript, and personally I think you dropped the ball mom. Back about assignment 2 or 3 forgotten/not turned in you needed to step up monitoring and enforcement because clearly this was an area she was struggling. If she was an A student previously and this is new it sounds like she needed some help with learning to stay organized(using a planner to write out homework due, and having you check that she did it, and had it in her bag to go back to school for example).

 

 

Not sure how I dropped the ball? I have been monitoring her all year long. I ask every day when she gets home what HW she has. I ask her in the evening if its in her backpack. I remind her every morning to turn it in. I have done this All. year. Long. When she started missing more than an assignment here or there I started checking her planner, going online with her making sure everything was written in the planner and she understood the assignments. I have been spending a least an hour, probably two a day on this. Talking to teachers, checking grades, going over the planner & work, signing late forms.The fact is she started lying to me about what was done. When she was caught she said she didn't feel like re-doing the assignments. That is when she got grounded. If the teachers aren't putting the assignments in and she's lying to me, not sure what more I can do?

 

And yes, some of these grades count. Her math class is HS credit. If she doesn't get a B or higher she cannot take the honors Science track in high school, or AP math. If she doesn't maintain her grades in her gifted classes she could get kicked out of the program. I've even told her, I don't care what you get in woodshop, please study for your math retake instead of woodshop, don't worry about the health test, finish you LA work, etc. I've talked with her about prioritizing and which grades are important to focus on.

 

I do agree that most HW is busy work. But it is what it is and it still needs to be done. If your boss aka you to do something and you think it's a wate of time you till have to do it. Her issue is not getting the work done, its turning it in. She "forgets" to turn it in, then loses it before I know it wasn't turned in. She then has to re-submit or re-do the assignment.

[garddwr]

You are not doing her any favors if send her on the trip, you are teaching her that consequences aren't real and she can get away with not fulfilling her end of a contractual agreement. Better cancel the trip, then put some real work into helping her learn better time management and project organizational skills. She will not hate you forever for keeping your word and being a responsible parent.

[kitten18]

I really think this thread needed a JAWM in the title.

[Scarlett]

First of all, your mom is now Grandma. She's a new person. ;)

 

 

Love this and so true!

[AK_Mom4]

I don't think you dropped the ball at all. I have one kid that definitely feels that if the teacher doesn't make homework a priority, then neither should he. Just not worth his effort and his grades end up reflecting that. Does great on tests and quizzes and doesn't bother to turn in the homework he already completed. Sigh.

 

He is also my kid that would blow it if some future reward was tied to long-term behavior. Of course, he is old enough now to tell me to just forget it - it's not worth it and he recognizes he is likely to fail. It's more of a perfectionist thing than anything else. He is 17 now and would offer up something different - probably a large short-term project like chopping a cord of wood.

 

For something he wants to do, he is highly motivated. But it has taken many years of training to help him realize that he needs to put effort into things that he doesn't care about but are important to others.

[Scarlett]

I think it was a mistake to tie the gift to responsibilities.

 

I would tell her you made a mistake doing so. That she may go on the trip and the other issue will be dealt with in another way.

[chiguirre]

You have a firm line in the sand with the no Cs, 3.6 GPA requirement and I'd stick with that. She'll either get the grades or she won't. I wouldn't flip out about the late work if it really doesn't affect her grade. The teachers established the rules and I'd let her work within their system however she wants. Chores are harder, I think all kids need reminders and most need to be hounded. It is what it is. I wouldn't deny her the trip based on my opinion of the effort she put in her chores, I'd stick with the external yardstick of her GPA. She either gets it or not and it doesn't depend on you, you just input the information and output the appropriate reward. It's not debatable, it just is. It will be a shame if she misses the trip, but that's on her, not you. It will really suck if she loses her place on the AP track and is limited to less selective universities, but there's only so much hounding you can do unless you're willing to micromanage her life. I'm glad I don't have to deal with such permanent consequences for the very typical behavior of a tween.

[garddwr]

Not sure how I dropped the ball? I have been monitoring her all year long. I ask every day when she gets home what HW she has. I ask her in the evening if its in her backpack. I remind her every morning to turn it in. I have done this All. year. Long. When she started missing more than an assignment here or there I started checking her planner, going online with her making sure everything was written in the planner and she understood the assignments. I have been spending a least an hour, probably two a day on this. Talking to teachers, checking grades, going over the planner & work, signing late forms.The fact is she started lying to me about what was done. When she was caught she said she didn't feel like re-doing the assignments. That is when she got grounded. If the teachers aren't putting the assignments in and she's lying to me, not sure what more I can do?

 

And yes, some of these grades count. Her math class is HS credit. If she doesn't get a B or higher she cannot take the honors Science track in high school, or AP math. If she doesn't maintain her grades in her gifted classes she could get kicked out of the program. I've even told her, I don't care what you get in woodshop, please study for your math retake instead of woodshop, don't worry about the health test, finish you LA work, etc. I've talked with her about prioritizing and which grades are important to focus on.

 

I do agree that most HW is busy work. But it is what it is and it still needs to be done. If your boss aka you to do something and you think it's a wate of time you till have to do it. Her issue is not getting the work done, its turning it in. She "forgets" to turn it in, then loses it before I know it wasn't turned in. She then has to re-submit or re-do the assignment.

 

 

Sounds like your dd has trouble with executive function skills. Smart but Scattered Teens is an excellent resource to guide you as a parent in helping her build these skills.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug: parenting is just tough sometimes :grouphug:

 

i found myself thinking of you when talking to one of our dds this morning. she is trying to lose weight. she has done everything she thinks she can do, and its not working.

i heard myself say: "its like science. you have a hypothesis. you try it out. it does what you think it will or it doesn't. if it doesn't, then you need to go back to the drawing board and figure out how to tweak it of how to do it completely differently".

 

so it may be that the trip is just the moment when you and your dd come face to face with the idea that the current strategy (strategies) aren't working well for anyone, and its time to figure out a tweak/new/different way. ie. the trip may just be an indicator, not the actual thing to really work on.

 

i'm wondering if you are giving her more latitude than she can deal with at this age and stage (regardless of whether she "ought" to be able to do it.). the laundry incident you mentioned is what made me wonder if maybe you have to have her be way more specific and then follow up in real time rather than waiting. eg. i put my laundry in the washing machine at 9am every sunday morning. and then maybe you wait until 9:15 before reminding her. if no action happens by 9:20, i would be back with her standing there while she did it. our youngest (of four dds) is now 13, and when i have to stand and watch her do something i remind her that if she is managing her time well, then i don't need to help her with it, and that it is really her call whether she is managing her life at this point or i am. for two of them, this works well. for the other two, who are more like me, when it doesn't work i then work with them on how they might remember that it is sunday, and that it is 9 o'clock and that that means laundry. (eg. after sunday morning breakfast, she could set the timer or an alarm to go off at 8:55, to give her five minutes to finish up what she's doing or to start gathering laundry). and then we'd tweak it until it worked.

 

good luck!

ann

[Pippen]

Fast forward to now. For some reason she's decided that turning in work on time is optional. For example in LA out of 41 assignments 17 have been late. There are no consequences for late work in any of her classes. First semester she had all A's. I have no idea what her grades will end up being because she has so many late assignments and most of the teachers are slow to grade. She gets 2 things graded then has a new mising assignment. I can't keep up.

 

So her grades are fluctuating drastically from day to day. For example last week she had a D in LA, this week it's a B. Shes had an A in SS all year, today it dropped to a C+. Our rule is nothing below a B with an overall GPA of 3.6. As for he chores she hasn't done them AT ALL unless we hound her. She doesn't have a lot (recycle, keep room clean, clean up dog poop 1x week)

 

 

 

Have her final grades for the school year been determined? I ask because I have a son who is the king of pulling off very respectable grades at the last minute, even with missing assignments. (Exception was foreign language). We make each other crazy because I'm an obsessive be on top of it kind of student and he's a laid back, leave most everything to the last minute kind of student. Guess which of us had huge stress issues and achieved lower grades in college? Given my experience, if there are no penalties for late work, I wouldn't pull the trip until grades are finalized because in that scenario she hasn't broken that part of the deal yet.

 

I recently did a long term substitute job in public middle school for a teacher who didn't penalize for late work. The lowest grade any student could receive was a 50%--and that included for missing assignments. Over time I did come to understand some of the reasoning but I tell you I never had to deal with so many missing assignments in my life, and that includes the years I was teaching remedial science to classes where 90% of the students were repeating the course. Some students simply don't function well when there aren't immediate consequences.

 

Your description of having to spend at least an hour a day managing her schoolwork is a huge red flag that something isn't right. I don't know what that is--maybe it is ADD, or executive function issues, or that she's not a good fit for this school's homework load, or that socially she's not found her place. Maybe she doesn't care about being in honors courses as much as you care about her being there. Maybe it's a symptom that's she's reached a point in school where academics, organizational, homework, and/or other demands are much greater than in the past and she's overwhelmed. I've also seen kids do quietly revolt and/or give up when parents stepped in with high levels of management. (Again, I have no idea--just tossing some out there).

 

Personally if her grades really do completely tank or she ends the year with many assignments that she hasn't taken the responsibility of completing on her own, I'd be scheduling with a professional such as a neuropsychologist. If there is an issue going on, it would be much better to find out now before the stakes are too high and that organizational accomodations can be put in place if needed. And also to avoid situations such this trip arrangment, which if she does have issues impacting organizational skills, would be impossible to achieve.

 

I do have another question--if she was getting all A's first semester, why did you tie the trip into grades in the first place? It sounds like she was doing well without the motivator in place.

[Plateau Mama]

I really think this thread needed a JAWM in the title.

 

 

How wa this a JAWM? I asked a question, most people told me I was wrong. I've talked to my daughter about whether she really wants to go or not and, based on suggestions here we are coming to a compromise where she will get to go on the trip?

 

I still disagree that because it was a "gift" she shold get to go no matter what. I think whe we did is more of a family culture thing and can't be explained online. She knows full well it wasn't a Christmas gift. I was going to give it to her for her birthday, which is this week, but my mom convinced me to tell her about it sooner so she could be excited.

[NorthwestMom]

((nicolepa)) I think you are doing pretty well taking feedback from the board. This is hard. If your teen is not handing in completed work, there's not much you personally can do about it except give consequences. I think you are handling it pretty well.

 

As a former teacher, i can say that teachers of teens who do not require timely turn-in of assignments or grade homework promptly are setting the kids up to struggle. Learners need feedback on the material learned.

[Plateau Mama]

Have her final grades for the school year been determined? I ask because I have a son who is the king of pulling off very respectable grades at the last minute, even with missing assignments. (Exception was foreign language). We make each other crazy because I'm an obsessive be on top of it kind of student and he's a laid back, leave most everything to the last minute kind of student. Guess which of us had huge stress issues and achieved lower grades in college? Given my experience, if there are no penalties for late work, I wouldn't pull the trip until grades are finalized because in that scenario she hasn't broken that part of the deal yet.

 

Your description of having to spend at least an hour a day managing her schoolwork is a huge red flag that something isn't right. I don't know what that is--maybe it is ADD, or executive function issues, or that she's not a good fit for this school's homework load, or that socially she's not found her place. Maybe she doesn't care about being in honors courses as much as you care about her being there. Maybe it's a symptom that's she's reached a point in school where academics, organizational, homework, and/or other demands are much greater than in the past and she's overwhelmed. I've also seen kids do quietly revolt and/or give up when parents stepped in with high levels of management. (Again, I have no idea--just tossing some out there).

I am not pushing her to be in these classes, she is. I have never forced her to be in honors. This kid reads college math & science textbooks for fun. She asks for work in the summer. She is freaky smart and I think part of the problem is she isn't being challenged. She has her heart set on going to a STEM school that gives College Credit. Her choice, not mine. She has said if she doesn't get in she will be devastated. She's not spending an hour a day on homework when she's caught up, it's more like 15 minutes. Right now I am spending an hour checking her grades, talking with teachers, checking to make sure she wrote all her assignments down etc. The only reason she is spending several hours doing homework each night is because she is playing catch up. This ki

 

 

I do have another question--if she was getting all A's first semester, why did you tie the trip into grades in the first place? It sounds like she was doing well without the motivator in place.

We still have 2.5 more weeks of school. Finals start this week, so no, grades aren't determined. The only grade I'm not sure she will have where it should be is math, and that is the only one that truly counts. But she has enough time to "fix" it so we talked last night and she realizes if she messes this up I did everything I could to help/warn her and it's only her fault.

 

We tied it to grades because she is notorious for getting lazy the last half of the year. She has just never done it to the magnitude that she has this year. Hindsite I probably shouldn't have done that but I did.

((nicolepa)) I think you are doing pretty well taking feedback from the board. This is hard. If your teen is not handing in completed work, there's not much you personally can do about it except give consequences. I think you are handling it pretty well.

 

As a former teacher, i can say that teachers of teens who do not require timely turn-in of assignments or grade homework promptly are setting the kids up to struggle. Learners need feedback on the material learned.

Thank you. I'm totally open to suggestions I haven't tried, but believe me, we've tried a lot and nothing yet has improved the situation. I really think until there are consequences at school for turning the work in late she's going to keep doing it. I guess I just ride it out another year and then she will have to figure it out when it counts. But the college she has chosen (yes, she's already researched them, without any help or input from us), has very high admission requirements and she won't have a chance if she has to learn this lesson in high school.

[skimomma]

Call me a mean parent, but I would stick with the original agreement. Whether or not it was a "gift" is subjective and means different things to different families. I personally would not have made a contract like this with my own kid because she is not capable of seeing the bigger picture yet.....it would have been setting her up for failure unless I was willing to hold her hand the whole time. BUT, I cannot say that the OP is in the same situation. Unless the OP truly feels she was mistaken in how the original plan was laid out, I think she should stick to it. To not do so is more damaging IMO. And if she has concluded that it was a flawed agreement, I think she should explain that, allow her dd to take the trip, and end the conversation there. Constant renegotiations of parent-child agreements is more damaging (IMO) than admitting parental wrong and just having her go.

[Luanne]

I don't really know what you should do about the trip, but I do wonder why you are sending your daughter to a school that is that incompetent. Are there no other options available? Part of her education should be teaching her to be accountable and they clearly are failing miserably in that department.