Too hard for second grade?

[Wheres Toto]

This was on facebook with a lot of comments about it being too hard for 2nd graders (and many of the adults saying they couldn't figure it out). The original poster did say that leaving purple off the original list of colors may have been a copying error. Do you think your average 2nd grader would be able to figure this out?

 

 

Angelica has 5 lunch boxes. The lunch boxes are yellow, red, orange and blue. She brings a different color to school each day. She brings the purple lunch box on the fourth day of the week. She brings the blue lunch box on the second day of the week. She brings the yellow lunch box on the day after the purple lunch box. She brings the red lunch box in the day after the weekend. Show on which day of the week Anjelica brings the orange lunch box.

Which day did she bring the orange lunch box? How did you solve the problem? Act it out? Draw a picture?Use logical reasoning? Look for a pattern? Make an organized list? Explain how you got your answer.

[PentecostalMom]

There is not a purple lunchbox in the second sentence. Is there supposed to be?

 

ETA: I think it is an error. The way it is worded, "She brings the purple lunch box on the 4th day of the week" indicated to me that there is supposed to be a purple lunchbox in the second sentence.

 

ETA (again): The info about the purple lunchbox does not affect the answer.

[Murphy101]

Monday = 1st = red

Tuesday = 2nd = blue

Wednesday = 3rd = ORANGE

Thursday = 4th = purple

Friday = 5th/last = yellow

 

It takes a straight logic grid, which is what I would suggest if my 2nd grader was getting the info confused.

 

Which days are what order? List that.

 

Reread problem and fill in facts as you go.

 

Only one day left must be orange.

 

I think most second graders could do this. The problem isn't hard at all. It's more an issue of learning how to order information in a useful manner. A very important problem solving skill and I think with very little assistance most 2nd graders could find the answer easily and quickly.

[Murphy101]

It is poorly worded, but it's very simple still.

[EKS]

Things that might be difficult for a 2nd grader could be being able to read the problem well enough to get at the meaning and coming up with a systematic way to get at the answer. I have two kids and in 2nd grade, one would have had trouble with this problem (if he had to read it himself especially) and the other would have found it easy (I think).

 

I am having a little difficulty seeing how an adult would have trouble with it though.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Ds6 just figured it out (end of 1st grade). He drew seven boxes and labeled them with the days of the week then just plugged in the colors on the days it tells you they correspond with. The only thing he asked me to clarify was whether the week should start on Monday or Sunday. I told him that since it was in regards to school it should start on Monday.

 

I did it in my head in while I was reading through it the first tme ... I don't mean to sound snarky, but adults couldn't figure it out?

[Wheres Toto]

Yeah. Here's the original post: https://www.facebook.com/DonnaForOklahoma/posts/469821839753345

 

It's not worded great, although the original poster did say at one point that she may have made a mistake in copying it.

 

Listing the colors is extra information and is not needed (just a different color each day) and I think most public school 2nd graders know what days they go to school. So, it didn't seem hard to me but I was wondering what response it would get here.

 

My son could read it and do it but we've been doing logic grid puzzles so it was familiar to him.

My daughter could do it when I read it to her. She basically put a finger up for each day of the week and put them down as she knew what color went there. Whatever was left was the answer, and she wound up with her middle finger in the air.

[5LittleMonkeys]

and she wound up with her middle finger in the air.

 

 

:lol:

[Arcadia]

In the order the information was given

 

4th purple

2nd blue

5th yellow

1st red

3rd orange

 

My 7 and 8 year old solved it separately in less than 2mins including reading. They were competing with each other

[Farrar]

I saw this discussed elsewhere. The logic seems like the majority of second graders should be able to get it to me. Depending on how the test was administered, I would think the reading comprehension ought to be the harder part. I think one of my boys would have struggled to get it as a 2nd grader - not because of the logic, but because of the reading being pared with the logic.

[TracyP]

My 7yo did struggle a bit. First he said it didn't make any sense. I told him to write down the days of the week and he was fine from there. I teach first graders in Sunday School. It is hard to judge because kids change so fast at this age, but I know that a couple could not read this and I would be shocked if any could figure it out without assistance. So I guess I do think this is a little bit too hard.

 

Like others, I don't understand how an adult could possibly struggle with this. My 9yo just did it in her head in under a minute. Some of those fb comments were just depressing. :(

[kdownie]

I will have to get my first grader to try it tomorrow. I think she could get it just fine.

[Holly]

My 2nd grader struggled with the wording, but he was able to do it in his head once I explained which days of the week were included...they don't quite get that other kids go to school Mon-Fri. :blush:

[Mommy22alyns]

:blink: What is this world coming to when adults can't figure that out???

 

ETA: I had to reiterate that school was M-F too.

[SorrelZG]

This comment caught my attention: "Maybe we should be teaching logic skills to our kids, and demanding excellence, instead of crying that they might encounter something too difficult."

 

This is more my own line of thought. (Honest questions because I am detached from the prevailing thought and confused) Are children of any grade only supposed to encounter the simple? How does one learn anything if they don't first encounter it as new and unknown? But if this question is an example of the common core, doesn't that mean it is teaching how to approach the problem and solve it? Are they saying that second graders aren't ready to learn to approach such problems? Or is this from a test for students ENTERING second grade?

 

 

[LMD]

That doesn't seem too difficult for a second grader IMO. They may need some direction or time to think it over, but not difficult at all.

[Word Nerd]

It's not too hard for second grade. Most PS second graders should know their days of the week well, and they should know how to make simple charts. Though it isn't a math problem per se, this is the type of word problem that appears regularly on DD's Saxon math worksheets.

[Arcadia]

But if this question is an example of the common core, doesn't that mean it is teaching how to approach the problem and solve it? Are they saying that second graders aren't ready to learn to approach such problems? Or is this from a test for students ENTERING second grade?

 

The Faceook link says this question is an example of Common Core Task Performance Question.

"Performance tasks help uncover deeper levels of student understanding by measuring a student’s ability to think through a complex problem that may have more than one correct answer.

 

They call for students to apply their knowledge within an authentic learning experience, which may take anywhere from minutes to days to complete."

This seems to be an example of a question that a student would have to read, work out and explain to the teacher how he/she would solve the problem. Kind of like a free response question of a test. The commentors on the Facebook link seems to think 2nd graders aren't developmentally ready to approach such problems.

[Lucy the Valiant]

My 1st grader got it, but I, too, had to explain that most kids would be automatically clear on the M-F school days.

[SKL]

It was pretty automatic for me - very straightforward. As for a 2nd grader, I think some would find it easy and some would find it hard. Given what I see with my own kids (1st graders), logic just doesn't come naturally to some.

[Cindyz]

First of all, it doesn't list the purple lunch box when it lists all of the colors at the beginning. Second , some people consider the first day of the week to be Sunday and some consider the first day to be Monday. My son considers the first day of the week to be Sunday. Because of that he knew that his grid was not correct when it got to the part about the day after the weekend. He then said, "This was written by someone who doesn't know what they are doing" and walked away. He does logic problems much more difficult than this regularly.

[PachiSusan]

Should I be embarrassed to admit that my 4th grader had a tough time with this? :huh:

[SorrelZG]

Nm.

 

Edited because I don't need to know. The whole thing baffles me (the responses, not the problem) and I am content to let it be.

[Rai B.]

It’s might seem harder because some of the problem is missing. (I recognized the problem. And I kept the workbook from when we were doing Saxon :tongue_smilie: . In the 2008 edition it is second grade Saxon Lesson 20-1.) I don‘t know how it is related to the Common Core, so I do not know how good it is as an example.

 

It should be:

 

Anjelica has five lunch boxes. The lunch boxes are yellow, red, purple, orange and blue. She brings a different color lunch box to school each day. She brings the purple lunch box on the fourth school day of the week. She brings the blue lunch box on the second school day of the week. She brings the yellow lunch box on the day after the purple lunch box. She brings the red lunch box on the day after the weekend. Show on which day of the week Anjelica brings the orange lunch box.

 

The teacher is supposed to read the problem to the class.

[Joker]

Mine are both old enough now to find it very easy. At the 2nd grade level, though, one would have found it very easy and one would have agonized over them not mentioning purple as an option in the beginning. The one who would have agonized is my perfectionist. She doesn't like to make mistakes and would have thought it too easy, which means it must be a trick. She used to way overthink things like this.

[Forgiven]

I believe my 2nd grader can do this. The one thing I'll have to explain is that the problem doesn't have to include all five colors in the second sentence. My 2nd grader is crazy about that. He'll get to the second sentence and probably get stuck because he will expect to see five colors listed. I'll see how he does. Logically, he can totally do it. The second sentence will throw him a bit though and he'll debate me on why there should be one more color listed. LOL

[kiwik]

If my y2/1st grade brought this home for homework it would be a lot better than copying street signs.

[8filltheheart]

Ummmm, I guess that those adults and kids have never played Advanced Mastermind?? I play it with my little kids all the time and it requires a lot more complex analysis than that example!! Jeepers. :p That adults do not believe children are capable of solving that problem is just plain sad.

 

 

[Hunter]

Should I be embarrassed to admit that my 4th grader had a tough time with this? :huh:

 

No!

 

If a student were doing this on their own without assistance, and hasn't been previously taught to draw charts for similar problems, they should be expected to struggle. She's fine!

 

Different curricula stress different skills. Curricula that focuses on neatness and accuracy and the learning basic math facts for the first few years, probably doesn't teach chart drawing logic problems. I personally do NOT teach this type of problem solving in the K-4 levels. There is too much else I want to cover FIRST.

 

Teaching this type of problem solving in 1st grade is like teaching research papers in 1st grade. It can look good, but what basic classical skills are skipped to make time for these often sloppily completed or help from mommy/teacher projects?

 

My youngest 2E kid could have done this. My older son would not have been able to do it. Many of my adult tutoring students do not have the reading comprehension skills to do this.

 

Some people can do these type of problems at an early age without being taught to do them. Some people need extensive and explicit instruction on how to do them even as adults. I personally refuse to teach these skills in the K-4 levels. If someone can do them without my instruction--Good! But I'm not TEACHING this. I respect others that DO choose to teach these skills in K-4, but it's just not how *I* do things.

 

I've been reading the Simply Charlotte Mason math pdf this week. If anyone is having a math panic attack over this problem, they might like to read it, along with the math section of How to Tutor.

[Paige]

I would expect that a 2nd grader would be taught how to do all math that is being,...uh...taught, before being expected to perform. So kids wouldn't and shouldn't be expected to do this without some instructions and examples. It's a really simple logic problem, but if you've never seen it before, I can see how it might throw you off. I think most normal 2nd graders could do it independently after being taught similar problems. I think most 5yr olds could do it after working through a few similar problems.

 

My 2nd graders last year did a bunch of much harder logic problems and they are behind in math. At first, they had no idea what to do but after a few weeks (once a week lessons), they could do them all by themselves. I was taught how to do much harder problems when I was in 3rd grade in public school. Maybe the people who are complaining are in a district where math is heavily taught through "discovery" and they are picturing the kids being thrown this stuff with no support. I can see also that for some kids the reading level for this problem could be too high.

[Hedgehogs4]

not too hard, but I agree that it is very badly worded.

[angelmama1209]

my 2nd grader could do it

[Kathryn]

My first grader did it with no problem (I added purple to the list as I read it to him as the problem was supposed to be read). He did it in his head using his fingers for the five days and when I asked him to explain how he got his answer, he said "that was the only day left that you didn't talk about yet."

 

If it makes a difference at all, he's been doing Building Thinking Skills and Mind Benders for a few years.

[MrsBanjoClown]

My 2nd grader got it pretty quickly. At first he gave the wrong answer, but without prompting he read through the problem again and said, "No, wait, it wasn't Tuesday, it was Wednesday." I think he just kept track of it all in his head and logically found the answer by finding which day wasn't used already.

 

ETA: My 6yo K'er figured it out after a few tries. First, I had to tell him to use M-F because he was using Sunday as the first day of the week. Then he had trouble keeping track of what days he had used (he wasn't using paper/pencil). He finally figured out to keep track on his fingers and got it right.

[Bree]

My 2nd grader got it too... :laugh:

[chicagoshannon]

My dd could do it but we've been doing logic problems for a while. Some elementary kids wouldn't be able to do the problem.

 

It's really sad that adults don't have enough logic to solve this problem.

[Word Nerd]

I found the original Saxon math problem here—in a first grade classroom's online files. I wonder where the Facebook woman got the idea it had anything to do with Common Core?

[Meriwether]

.

[Meriwether]

Sorry. Triple post.

[Meriwether]

The way it is presented in Saxon makes it a very easy problem. The clues are listed to the left. To the right are five boxes labeled MONDAY, TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY, FRIDAY. As the teacher/parent reads the clues, the child crosses off the days of the week one at a time until Wednesday is the only one left. It isn't a logic problem that the student has to organize and sort out - or even read themselves.

[Meriwether]

I found the original Saxon math problem here—in a first grade classroom's online files. I wonder where the Facebook woman got the idea it had anything to do with Common Core?

 

 

I stand corrected. I've never seen it done that way in my kids' Saxon.

[regentrude]

(and many of the adults saying they couldn't figure it out).

 

This is truly frightening.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

This is truly frightening.

 

I agree. I am also depressed by the idea that somehow these skills are categorized as needing to be directly taught via curriculum that develop logic skills. Building with blocks/legos, constructing bracelets/necklaces, basically playing anything that involves sequencing, etc should enable children to intuitively know how to do this. This is a very low level critical thinking skill for a 7 to 8 yr old.

[weederberries]

My 6 yo second grader got this simply. I read the problem to him first, though he wouldn't have trouble with the language on his own and when he accepted the challenge, he took over rereading for the details. He immediately noticed that purple was missing from the list. He made a chart, listing the weekdays, assigning each a number and writing the colors below.

 

I agree that the stumbling block most ps second graders would face would be the reading/comprehension.

[Word Nerd]

I agree. I am also depressed by the idea that somehow these skills are categorized as needing to be directly taught via curriculum that develop logic skills. Building with blocks/legos, constructing bracelets/necklaces, basically playing anything that involves sequencing, etc should enable children to intuitively know how to do this. This is a very low level critical thinking skill for a 7 to 8 yr old.

 

I agree. My second grader figured it out in a minute or so. She's above average for her age academically, but the problem is rather basic and not difficult (at least if the Facebook OP had worded it correctly and not left out purple). I think the adults commenting that it's too hard likely have math anxiety and freeze up whenever they encounter a word problem. There really is no other explanation I can think of for why an adult would have trouble with it. I think showing kids that word problems aren't scary and intimidating is a good reason to introduce them early, not wait until upper grades.

[Hunter]

I agree. I am also depressed by the idea that somehow these skills are categorized as needing to be directly taught via curriculum that develop logic skills. Building with blocks/legos, constructing bracelets/necklaces, basically playing anything that involves sequencing, etc should enable children to intuitively know how to do this. This is a very low level critical thinking skill for a 7 to 8 yr old.

 

 

I had to be TAUGHT that a chart was a possible problem solving tool for math word problems. But on the other hand I didn't need to be taught to read; I figured it out for myself.

 

Just because I don't need to be TAUGHT certain things, doesn't mean I assume others don't need explicit instruction in that area. And vice-versa it's difficult when others assume I, and others like me, don't need explicit instruction.

 

For the MASSES to be expected to do this problem at the beginning of second grade will require the skills needed to be taught in the first grade curriculum. I personally am not a fan of squeezing this into a packed curriculum where even the more basic skills are not being taught adequately.

 

I'm not a fan of mathematicians having the bulk of responsibility of writing curriculum. I think they often assume the average child can do things that they cannot do. They think things are fun for everyone that are only fun for some.

 

I think this type of problem is great for children that are ready for it. I just don't think this is meant for the early 2nd grade masses.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

I had to be TAUGHT that a chart was a possible problem solving tool for math word problems. But on the other hand I didn't need to be taught to read; I figured it out for myself.

 

Just because I don't need to be TAUGHT certain things, doesn't mean I assume others don't need explicit instruction in that area. And vice-versa it's difficult when others assume I, and others like me, don't need explicit instruction.

 

For the MASSES to be expected to do this problem at the beginning of second grade will require the skills needed to be taught in the first grade curriculum. I personally am not a fan of squeezing this into a packed curriculum where even the more basic skills are not being taught adequately.

 

I'm not a fan of mathematicians having the bulk of responsibility of writing curriculum. I think they often assume the average child can do things that they cannot do. They think things are fun for everyone that are only fun for some.

 

I think this type of problem is great for children that are ready for it. I just don't think this is meant for the early 2nd grade masses.

 

 

You completely miss my point. It is incredibly sad that I agree that the masses probably can't solve the problem. It is the root cause of *why* that depresses me. If kids were actually playing and exploring and doing things that develop critical thinking skills naturally/normally, this would not require any complex thought process to answer. In the correctly worded problem, it is simply a list. I just read the problem to my very *avg* 1st grader. She simply listened to me read it (I agree that reading the problem **is** the difficult part. She could not have read it and processed it on her own easily b/c she is not a strong reader) and in her head simply placed the the lunch boxes in the correct days and stuck the answer in the one w/o a lunch box. That is not what I would even really classify as a critical thinking skill. It is more just a simple sequence. The hardest part outside of the reading is knowing the days of the week and their correct order and not including the weekend. (Since this particular child dislikes school immensely, she always keeps track of the days of the week b/c she lives for the weekend. ;) )

 

I don't want to veer OT, so this is just my personal perspective. But, if children were encouraged to make connections through natural play vs. direct instruction, higher order thinking would be developed/encouraged. My personal strong POV is that constant direct instruction and "academics" beginning with very young children as the solution is actually part of the problem.

[Kathryn]

 

 

You completely miss my point. It is incredibly sad that I agree that the masses probably can't solve the problem. It is the root cause of *why* that depresses me. If kids were actually playing and exploring and doing things that develop critical thinking skills naturally/normally, this would not require any complex thought process to answer. In the correctly worded problem, it is simply a list. I just read the problem to my very *avg* 1st grader. She simply listened to me read it (I agree that reading the problem **is** the difficult part. She could not have read it and processed it on her own easily b/c she is not a strong reader) and in her head simply placed the the lunch boxes in the correct days and stuck the answer in the one w/o a lunch box. That is not what I would even really classify as a critical thinking skill. It is more just a simple sequence. The hardest part outside of the reading is knowing the days of the week and their correct order and not including the weekend. (Since this particular child dislikes school immensely, she always keeps track of the days of the week b/c she lives for the weekend. ;) )

 

I don't want to veer OT, so this is just my personal perspective. But, if children were encouraged to make connections through natural play vs. direct instruction, higher order thinking would be developed/encouraged. My personal strong POV is that constant direct instruction and "academics" beginning with very young children as the solution is actually part of the problem.

 

And in the sample from Saxon someone posted where this came from, it was pretty clear that days of the week were being either worked on or reviewed.

[regentrude]

It is the root cause of *why* that depresses me. If kids were actually playing and exploring and doing things that develop critical thinking skills naturally/normally, this would not require any complex thought process to answer. In the correctly worded problem, it is simply a list. I just read the problem to my very *avg* 1st grader. She simply listened to me read it (I agree that reading the problem **is** the difficult part. She could not have read it and processed it on her own easily b/c she is not a strong reader) and in her head simply placed the the lunch boxes in the correct days and stuck the answer in the one w/o a lunch box. That is not what I would even really classify as a critical thinking skill. It is more just a simple sequence. The hardest part outside of the reading is knowing the days of the week and their correct order and not including the weekend.

 

Exactly. And I would expect even a beginning 2nd grader to know the days of the week and to have seen a calendar.

The problem does not require "charts for math word problems".

The problem requires that the kid has seen a calendar for the week.

 

I would not even consider this a math problem, but a life problem - after all, there are play dates, and gymnastics, and music lessons, and Grandma is coming - and the kids should have been introduced to the concept that there are 7 week days, 5 of them school, and that people use calendars to schedule stuff.

Not math. Life skill.

[regentrude]

For the MASSES to be expected to do this problem at the beginning of second grade will require the skills needed to be taught in the first grade curriculum. I personally am not a fan of squeezing this into a packed curriculum where even the more basic skills are not being taught adequately.

 

I think this type of problem is great for children that are ready for it. I just don't think this is meant for the early 2nd grade masses.

 

You don't think 2nd graders have seen a calendar and should know the name of the days of the week?

This is not about "charts for math word problems". It is about the simple life skill of using a calendar for the five days of school, something every public school kid has been doing every day since K.

 

So, the kid needs to know the days of the week, and be able to count to 4. I consider this appropriate for 2nd grade. And I am convinced the days of the week and counting to four have been taught in1st grade.