The Business of Being Born... are they for real?

[PeacefulChaos]

Warning: This is a vent. I know that not everyone here agrees with me. I'll even be so bold as to say that there will be MANY who won't agree with me.

I just don't see how what these people describe as 'the norm' in America could actually be the norm.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that honestly felt like a total piece of fiction to me. Maybe that is how it is in a few places...but all over the place? Doctors and hospitals just drugging people up and moving them down an assembly line to have a c-section? Really? :001_huh:

And don't even get me started on the guy who claimed that women who don't give birth naturally don't care about their babies. And that the birth experience, for the baby, can determine things about his or her life. :rolleyes: :glare:

I know that my experience with childbirth wasn't the norm. I know that there are plenty of people who can easily have an unassisted birth. But tbh, I am one of those people who think home births are risky. I didn't have medical professionals who pushed me to do anything. The hospital I went to doesn't even do inductions with no medical reason to my knowledge - I know they never said anything about one to me. I had picture perfect pregnancies. I always figured I'd end up having c-sections, though, just because I just figured I would. I don't know why, I just did. But I never asked for a c-section, and trust me, they wouldn't have done one even if I did. I figured I'd give the whole 'giving birth' thing a try.

My water broke (big gush - not a trickle) at 40 weeks - it was 3 am (this was 8.5 years ago). I went in and I just wasn't doing anything. I wasn't contracting, nothing was happening. Just hanging out. All day. They gave me some pitocin and I finally started having a few contractions at around 5pm. Light, easy ones. No big deal. The rest of the evening, the same. They stopped the pitocin around 8ish maybe, and let me eat and sleep. I ate a turkey sandwich, drank a ginger ale, and slept that night. They started it back up the next morning. I went for a walk around 8am, and finally started having some pain. Some actual labor pain. Then it got so bad so fast I didn't know what hit me. I spent the next 12 hours like that. I eventually (mid afternoon maybe?) got an epidural that didn't work (because of my spine), and we started asking if I could get a c-section around that time. Why? Because I was 1cm. Yep, 1. The doctor kept saying no, everything was going fine, etc. 9pm, a new doctor comes on shift and says, 'Well, what do you want to do?' and I say 'Get this baby out.' So we did a c-section. She checked me one last time before they got everything set up and wheeled me back and I'd made it to 3. She said it like it was some accomplishment. Give me a break. 40+ hours and you think 3 cm is worth that? If it took 43 hours to get to 3, how long would it take me to get to 10?! I said, that's nice, do the c-section. :D So they took me back, figured out that the epidural wasn't working and they couldn't get me numb enough to do a c-section, so they put me under general anesthesia and I had him at 11pm.

I didn't feel like I missed out on anything. I scheduled my next two because I sure as heck wasn't going through that again. It was misery. All that could never be worth it. My doctor actually caught a lot of flack from her fellow doctors at the hospital for allowing me to choose a repeat c-section instead of trying to talk me into a VBAC. But supposedly that isn't normal. :confused: I don't know how I managed to stumble upon a hospital like this if it's so abnormal. I certainly wasn't looking for it. When I went to have Astro (3 days before my due date), I started having contractions when I was waiting in my room for the c-section. I didn't care, I still wasn't going to put myself through that again, especially to end up with a baby even bigger than the first one. And even with a picture perfect pregnancy, Pink was in the NICU for a month.

I know, my situation (one where medical intervention IS ACTUALLY necessary) isn't normal, there are lots of women who are persuaded into unnecessary interventions by doctors, etc, etc...

Anyway, the whole thing just irked me. I watched it because I wanted to know what the fuss was about, even though I was pretty sure it was going to annoy me. And it did. I'm all for those women getting to have their baby the way they want - good for them. Really. I'm glad that we have the freedoms to have our babies the way we want, so long as it isn't endangering them (like the lady, totally unrelated to this movie or this concept, who wanted SO BADLY not to have a c-section that her baby died. She should be charged with murder, IMO. But that's, like I said, unrelated.)

But please don't assume, Ricki Lake and whomever, that other people are 'missing out' because they didn't have a baby that way. My ILs have told DH that we missed out because of our deliveries. I think it's baloney. *You get the same end result. Who cares how it got there?

Or wait, is that my 'non going into labor therefore I don't care about my kids' brain working?

Complete hogwash.

:rant:

Ok, I'm done. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

*ETA: I replied in posts 48 and 129 (pretty sure that was the numbers, anyway). I'm getting tired of reiterating my position on this statement. And you'll notice that I actually said it regarding MY IL's telling US that WE missed out on something by not having a natural birth, while we disagree. (and, to an extent, to ANYONE assuming that someone ELSE was missing out on something). :rolleyes:

Edited July 11, 2012 by PeacefulChaos

[staceyobu]

I'm really curious as to what area of the country you are in. I live in an area where the closest midwife is two hours away. The closest CNM is five hours away. Oh, and insurance won't pay for any of it... so you pay thousands out of pocket if you want that option.

 

Yes, the hospitals here are as pushy interventionist as what is seen in the movie. I was told this last pregnancy (my fourth) after three unmedicated deliveries that it was impossible for me to have the baby without an epidural. Really? Impossible? Even though I've already done it three times?

 

I used to work maternity and saw doctors lie through their teeth to get mothers to consent to inductions and c/sections. In nursing orientation I had an ob tell the new grads to never let a mother deliver without an epidural because he did not want to have to come in and listen to screaming. Our job was to convince the mom to get it before he got there.

 

With this last pregnancy (despite finding a more naturally minded ob) the nurses were upset if I was in any position other than flat on my back. I was tied to a monitor and iv continually despite having no intervention. They kept bright lights on above me despite repeated requests for them to turn them off (and absolutely no reason for them to be on). The whole experience was irritating.

[dangermom]

I know what I missed out on with my c-sections--dying! I am all for natural birth, but it's not going to work for everyone. Until 100 years ago we *only* had natural birth, and sometimes it came with death. I agree that people went kind of overboard with the drugs and all, and I hope that we're getting to a better balance. But I have no complaints about how my own birth experiences went, at least as far as how the hospital staff treated me. I do kind of with my first baby hadn't been over 10 pounds and flipped the wrong way! :001_smile:

 

Edit: with my first, the staff was wonderful. They encouraged me to walk around, get in the bath, whatever I wanted to do. Lamaze didn't work at all, and they taught me a different way to cope. I hated the bath! I walked until I was falling asleep on my feet in between contractions. If anything, my OB waited a bit too long to advise a c-section, and that was on a Friday night when I was the only one there. The second time, I had a planned c-section and that was *great*. I walked in 10 days before my due date, and 45 minutes later I had a 9lb. plus baby!

Edited July 10, 2012 by dangermom

[Dory]

I found the show rather shocking, but then I thought maybe it just is that drastically different up here in Canada. I don't think there is anything wrong with some women having c-sections. I was a c-section baby as I was a footling breech. My oldest was a c-section baby for the same reason. My best friend had too small of a cervix to have her babies naturally. Unless she was willing to kill both her and the baby, c-section was the only option.

I think that to assume that one way is the only way and all other ways to deliver a baby or horrible and destructive to the child, are foolish. Different situations, and different people, will require different approaches.

 

I would've had a home birth with my last one if I could've. My labors were pretty fast, but I was too high a risk to take that chance.

[Slartibartfast]

I think things are deliberately hyperbolic and the very extremes are emphasized in order to point to the problem as a whole.

 

It is true that inductions are dangerous and overused for convenience. Does saying that imply that inductions are never necessary? Of course not.

 

It is true that there are more risks to the mother with a c-section and that the c-section rates are too high. Does saying that imply that c-sections are never necessary? No.

 

It is true that under ideal circumstances homebirth is perfectly safe. That doesn't mean that hospital births are *not* safe.

 

All of those things are true, saying so doesn't take away from someone else's experience. I think people often take things personally that shouldn't be personal. Facts are not personal. It isn't about the individual, it is about women as a whole. Sure we could all discuss our very necessary c-sections (and I had c-sections) but that still doesn't change that the c-section rate is hovering at over 30% and it should be lower.

 

Women should have choices available to them. It will make our future daughters and daughters in law safer.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Sis

[Tohru]

Yes they are for real. I have 4 friends that are midwives and I know women who are doulas. I hear more horror stories and complications from the doulas that work in hospitals than the midwives that do home births.

 

I'm sorry you had a difficult time. Pitocin, stress from being in the hospital, expectations, not being informed of what our bodies are truly capable of - all complicates things.

 

Either hospital or homebirth, women should have the right to choose where to give birth. The movie was to help educate the public about the costs behind hospital births...the purpose wasn't to make women angry for their choice.

Edited July 10, 2012 by jadedone80

[Mommyof4ks]

I agree with you OP. we delivered in a wonderful hospital with two different OBs who worked very, very hard to avoid c-sections and inductions. My dd should have been born via c-section, and most doctors would have insisted given my blood pressure and the fact that after two hours of pushing she was no where near being born. My doc knew I did not want to be cut on, so he used the vacuum. It was scary, but it all turned out well. My last child was breech, but again the doc knew I did not want a c-section (no way he was coming out in his position), and he turned him. That was VERY painful, but we had tried everything else out there. My OB even told me things to try to get him to turn before intervening. My docs really did just plan to be there to catch the babies and congratulate us lol. I know there are hospitals that are bad, and I know there are docs who do not care about their patients, but it is just like any profession, there are good apples and bad apples.

 

I know babies who have been born at home who have been fine and a couple that have not, so where a baby is born is not as important as being born in the safest place for that baby IMHO.

[staceyobu]

I know there are hospitals that are bad, and I know there are docs who do not care about their patients, but it is just like any profession, there are good apples and bad apples.

 

 

To me, it's a bit more complicated than that. When large regions of hospitals will not permit women to vbac, you completely deny women an option of a nonsurgical birth. How does this support the rights of women?

[BakersDozen]

OP, I'm in agreement with you as well. To be honest, once I hear someone who is expecting bring up that movie I tune out and move away from the conversation quickly. Even worse is the "documentary" "Born in America". :glare: :banghead:

[Embassy]

I'm also wondering where you live.

 

I gave birth in 3 different states. In one state I was pressured by my OB to induce. I refused and she cranked up the pressure. When I agreed to be induced there was an actual medical reason and not a "what-if" which was what the doctor was going on previously. She apologized after the birth. The birth was quite stressful. I had an epidural and didn't feel the birth at all. Nursing was difficult and I couldn't walk for awhile. I never wanted an epidural again, but I did need it because of the pitocin. My son needed vacuum extraction because he was stuck. I do strongly believe that the pitocin lead to my need for an epidural which lead to me being immobile which led to my son getting stuck and a vaccuum extraction. I also believe that the nursing difficulties was related to the difficult birth. Add to that, after many days in the hospital and we wanted to leave the staff threatened that our insurance would pay nothing unless we stayed.

 

In another state I had the doctor tell me my baby could die if I didn't induce by my due date. I refused to go back to her and it was one week before my due date. Her medical reason was because I was borderline gestational diabetes. My baby was not measuring big at all and my blood sugar levels were always good without any insulin. I gave birth one day after my due date without any intervention in the hospital with my baby weighing under 7 lbs. I went in and a wonderful midwife was on staff. Together with my doula supporting me I was able to have a wonderful birth.

 

With my other birth my doctor was great. She gave me options and valued my decisions. Now, the hospital staff after birth is another story. I never left my baby out of my sight in a hospital after my experience there. In short, they gave my son something without my knowledge or permission and then proceeded to tell me that the doctor said my son needed formula:001_huh:

 

The Business of Being Born reveals what I went through. It isn't normal these days to give birth naturally in the hospital.

[JoLuRu]

My mom has been an L&D nurse for 30+ years and was there for the long, drawn out induction (2 weeks overdue) of my first baby. When my doctor gave a deadline of 10:30 to push out the baby or have a C-section, my mom told me it wasn't for the health of me or the baby - everything was taking awhile but we weren't in any distress - but because he had an 11 pm shift change and didn't want to stay over. She yelled at him for me and he backed down. I don't doubt that I would have had an unnecessary C-section without her knowledgeable advocacy.

 

With my third at a different hospital, different doctor, the baby flipped breech in the days before my due date. My doctor immediately scheduled a C-section at my prenatal appointment, despite two previous vaginal births. I went home and called my mom, who insisted that I call for a manual version (flipping the baby) before agreeing to a C-section, and explained that even if the baby didn't flip, a vaginal birth can be done with a breech baby but most doctors don't want to take the risks. I called my doctor and she was quite hesitant to try flipping the baby, but it worked and I had an easy vaginal birth.

 

Without having a personal advocate who was inside the system and knew the right things to say, and not knowing those things myself, I would easily have ended up with unnecessary C-sections with both of those births.

[LittleIzumi]

Oh yes, it's quite true in many parts of the country. Heck, even at the CNM group for my second birth, they signed you up for an induction a few months into pregnancy, just in case it was needed later, because the hospital was so booked up that it would be hard to get an actual medical induction if it was needed near the due date. :confused::confused::confused: (I refused to sign up for one, just "lost" the form:lol:, and didn't need it.)

[BlsdMama]

You get the same end result. Who cares how it got there?

 

IF you end up with a healthy mother and a healthy baby. C-sections are major surgery. Ideally no one would ever undergo one unless it was life or death necessary.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for the option. Baby #4, a premature footling breech with the cord on the cervix, was my c-section. But it shouldn't be able to be requested. It should be by necessary medical necessity and only at 38 weeks unless an absolute emergency.

 

There are just too many health risks and too many complications and I believe they will find there are more complications than we currently realize.

 

I'm considered high risk. As a matter of fact, I am considered "so" high risk at this point that my last doctor was a perinatologist specializing in high risk deliveries rather than an OB. (I have easy peasy deliveries though. ;) ) I actually don't believe my pregnancies are nearly so scary as the medical profession would like to believe - just scary. I think that the medical profession isn't as pushy IF mothers would bother to be informed and in charge and be an advocate for themselves.

 

Truly I consider myself incredibly blessed to have had the obstetric professionals I've dealt with - but I've had several incredible doctors - one in the military, one in a "regular" practice, one in a high risk hospital, and one here in Oregon. I've also dealt with one total pain in the tailfeathers, but he was the exception.

 

All that said, I FIRMLY believe an at home birth (not at the hospital), supervised by a trained professional (CNM) is the safest and healthiest choice for all involved in your average pregnancy & delivery. I've NEVER been able to have a homebirth and I STILL firmly feel, after much research, that is the safest choice. That said, in my situation, I am grateful for hospitals and science. :D

 

ETA: I think it's interesting to note that most women DO believe they had to have their necessary c-sections. Some did. Some didn't. For example, did you know that women often can and do dilate PAST 10cm? They do. If doctors would stop shoving their hands in places they don't belong, your body will literally take over and you will push out the baby. No stirrups, no drama, no pushing, no breathing, no counting.

 

You WILL feel your body take over. You'll feel the baby rotate and move down WHEN your cervix is as open as it needs to be. I've delivered a baby at 6.5cm. As open as it needed to be. And with our daughters Abigail, Sarah, Daniella, and Olivia, I was very adamant that I wanted a natural birth - no checking for dilation. If we had confidence in our bodies and were informed and had SEEN and EXPERIENCED other womens' birth experiences, we would know what a NORMAL birth experience was. But we don't. Instead we watch TLC where we are totally numb, dependent on "experts" to tell us when we can push, and follow their instructions. Result? Long pushing, vacuums, forceps, damaged babies, unnecessary c-sections.

 

As women, frankly, we do not understand the natural birth process. :( I'm not angry about it. I'm sad. I'm really sad.

 

I had two societally "normal" births with Briana and Christian that resulted in a damaged cervix. That damaged cervix can no longer function correctly and hold a baby. So baby #3 died tragically early because the cervix didn't work right anymore. Who knows what caused it? But my so called "normal" births didn't help. Follow Baby #4 - my c-section.

 

I was bound and determined to deliver #5 naturally and did so though painfully, lol. She was sunny side up with a hand by her head. Ouch. Baby #5 wasn't natural due to a cerclage (stitch) that couldn't be removed without an epidural.

 

But, my truly natural births, sans drugs with a doctor who really KNEW me well, were beautiful, beautiful births. I really wish that everyone could experience birth as it is meant to be. It was painful. Oh, my, yes it was! But the recovery was AMAZING compared to my c-section and really ALL of my other births. I really wonder about the "chemical/hormonal" side of giving birth. I wonder about the euphoria and the bonding. I absolutely know I was completely bonded to my c-section baby. :) So I don't compare the two. But the wonderfulness that is giving birth and then feeling GREAT is a world apart from c-section. And I guess what frustrates me is not the women who choose to have an elective or semi-elective c-section because they just don't know, often, the difference between normal birth patterns and completely non-normal birth patterns, but they are advised and pushed and prodded by a system that thinks everyone should be typical. It's frustrating. :(

Edited July 10, 2012 by BlsdMama

[JoLuRu]

Also, my mom says that in the case where a mother refuses consent for a C-section and it is medically necessary for the baby to survive, they can override the mother's wish and do a C-section. This is in California, if that makes a difference.

[MrsBasil]

I think it varies regionally or by dr.

 

My first birth water broke(gushed) at 37 weeks. I didn't want a c-section, because I didn't care to recover from surgery with a new little one.

After two rounds of cytotec and a round of pitocin I had lots and lots of contractions for hours, but never dilated. Maybe to 1 cm? I was even given an epidural for overnight to relax, but no dice. I had a c-section. It was scary and I was heavily medicated, had a bad reaction to the anesthesia, hadn't eaten much in 9 months. But the medical staff(for the most part) couldn't have been more compassionate, helpful, and caring. The OB had a rotten bedside manner, but was very good at the actual delivering/surgery.

 

Second birth, scheduled c-section at 39 weeks. Water broke(gushed) one day before the surgery. Had the c-section anyway about 18 hours later. Wouldn't you know it? I never dilated that entire day after my water broke. At the time I was on a state plan and had a hard time finding a Dr. who would take me. The midwives/OB who delivered my first baby would, but they don't do VBACs due to staffing. I had wanted to try a vaginal birth, but win some/lose some. The baby still arrived. We're both healthy. The same OB had drastically improved his bedside manner, but the staff nurses where less compassionate.

 

Like I said, win some/lose some. At the end of the day, the kids are here and I'm content. I'm glad that c-sections are an option and I honestly do not care how someone chooses to give birth. If there's pressure that's a problem. All I have anecdotes from friends and no one felt pressured into something they were opposed to. I'm another one who is fine with home birth being legal, but would never have one.

Edited July 10, 2012 by MrsBasil

[Veritaserum]

That movie isn't my favorite, but there really are hospitals and doctors like that. I gave birth to my first with a doc in an extremely intervention-oriented hospital. It was dangerous and it was traumatic.

 

I gave birth to my next four at home with a midwife because I was unwilling to put myself and my babies at risk of the same unnecessary and dangerous routine procedures. I didn't want to have to "fight" for a low tech birth while in labor, either. At the time I did not trust any of my hospital options to be safe.

 

My most recent birth (four years since my last home birth) was in a good hospital with a great CNM. It was a more medical birth than my home births for sure, but it made sense due to the circumstances and ALL of the decisions were very clearly mine. That made a huge difference.

 

I do think most women (and men) in America are woefully undereducated about childbirth and the benefits/risks of each option. I wish there were more balanced films.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Veritaserum

[BugsMama]

As a nurse (who hasn't worked the OB floor for 30 years, but has worked it) and a patient who has had three vaginal births, the last one pain-med free.... I can tell you that 99 percent of patients ARE on Pit. That many of these patients do have c sections. That many doctors are so afraid of being sued that they like to take the most predictable route, which is a c section to ensure everyone's safety.

 

Most doctors aren't out to torture you. But they do want you safe. The sooner you are OUT of labor and delivered, the less risk of infection and fetal distress. Hence the Pit. If ANYTHING isn't textbook, they are more comfortable finishing it NOW with a section. They see safe as "In my control". You on a table, medicated, monitored, with predictable outcomes is "better" when any variable is "wonky" to them. That's just how hospitals work. They are there to fix people and solve problems. If you don't think you have a problem needing fixing, well, it isn't really the place for you. Doctors and OB nurses aren't really trained to do a normal, intervention free delivery. We have protocols, and training to help you with the risky scary stuff. We are good at at. We aren't good at sitting on our hands watching you scream (and it's the rare woman who isn't a mess when it comes to natural childbirth). If you want someone to just watch you from a distance, you need a birthcenter or a midwife or a homebirth. Different strokes. But I get annoyed at getting down on doctors and nurses for doing what they are trained to DO. We are trained to ACT.

 

But yes- from the PP with a nurse mother- you DO need a patient advocate, because there are often other alternatives your doctor won't give you, because it isn't what they "typically" do, that are possibilities. You gotta educate yourself first, before going in. And you have to educate your doctor on your wants and needs before heading to the floor and throwing a fit to your nurse LOL. You don't want an IV? Great. Talk to your doctor, get that Saline Lock in your order, and I'll do it. The orders come pre-written from the doctor, letting us know in the 11th hour that guess what, you don't want monitored, won't really help any of us, because now we are scrambling to get new orders instead of taking care of you. We want to do what you want, but we need to KNOW what you want at get it approved so we can actually DO it. These things can be done in advance, talk about your birthplan in the last weeks of your pregnancy! LOL (Just a vent!)

 

Ok..... I think I am off the original topic..... off the soapbox....

[BlsdMama]

To me, it's a bit more complicated than that. When large regions of hospitals will not permit women to vbac, you completely deny women an option of a nonsurgical birth. How does this support the rights of women?

 

In many hospitals in Oregon ( OF ALL PLACES?!?!?!) I cannot give birth. I have to go to Portland.

 

Why?

 

I had a c-section in 2001.

 

Never mind that I had a VBAC. Oh wait. That I've had SIX V-BACS since that c-section. I am not allowed to have a V-BAC at many hospitals.

 

My perinatologist, who shall remain nameless, told me that if I had to deliver at one of those hospitals that I could legally refuse the c-section. It was an FYI - just in case. But they could have made my time miserable, and worse, with legislation these days, they probably could have a child taken away for endangerment if they wanted to be awful about it. :(

[I.Dup.]

I think it's baloney. You get the same end result. Who cares how it got there?

 

I think it matters very much.

 

That being said, I am not one of those die-hard, crunchy, eat my placenta types that thinks home birthing is the ONLY way. I have had my last 2 at home and I am thankful for the experience and think it went well. It wasn't some orgasmic ecstasy, change my whole life experience, but it was nice to have my baby at home and not have to worry about grumpy nurses or rushing to the hospital in time. That was REALLY nice to leave behind as I usually arrive in transition and it was just a horrible experience in that regard in the hospitals.

 

My hospital births were not horrible, so I was lucky in that regard. I did have pitocin for one. I am thankful to not have needed a C/S and I had a Dr. who refused to give me one even when I begged (with my first baby, I was 19 and had no idea how terrible labor could be) :lol:

 

I do know, because of liability issues, doctors really have their hands tied and need to be OVERLY cautious, to a fault. Some will go against the grain and do what is best for the mom, but many are so worried about getting sued and trying to see as many patients as possible to pay for their crazy malpractice insurance rates, med school loans etc, etc, that they don't have much time to devote to each woman and long labors.

[JoLuRu]

 

...If you don't think you have a problem needing fixing, well, it isn't really the place for you. Doctors and OB nurses aren't really trained to do a normal, intervention free delivery. We have protocols, and training to help you with the risky scary stuff. We are good at at. We aren't good at sitting on our hands watching you scream (and it's the rare woman who isn't a mess when it comes to natural childbirth). If you want someone to just watch you from a distance, you need a birthcenter or a midwife or a homebirth. ...

 

My body never did go into labor and I was induced, overdue, all three times. I wanted the least intervention possible and was clear about it in my birth preferences (you just can't *plan* these things) but I couldn't have a birth center or home birth given the need for induction. I definitely understood that they have their protocols, but I didn't want my birth experience to have more intervention than medically necessary and I had more than one nurse who acted offended by this. One nurse, after I got an epidural with the first baby, said, "It's about time! We could hear you bellowing from down the hall!" There just wasn't much support for the mom attempting a natural birth.

 

The last baby was epidural-free and I was only a mess in the last 15 minutes, after laying down for the convenience of the nurse who was checking me! I was managing very well while squatting, but that's an inconvenient position for the baby catcher!

[Kate CA]

Never mind.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Kate CA

[BugsMama]

My body never did go into labor and I was induced, overdue, all three times. I wanted the least intervention possible and was clear about it in my birth preferences (you just can't *plan* these things) but I couldn't have a birth center or home birth given the need for induction. I definitely understood that they have their protocols, but I didn't want my birth experience to have more intervention than medically necessary and I had more than one nurse who acted offended by this. One nurse, after I got an epidural with the first baby, said, "It's about time! We could hear you bellowing from down the hall!" There just wasn't much support for the mom attempting a natural birth.

 

The last baby was epidural-free and I was only a mess in the last 15 minutes, after laying down for the convenience of the nurse who was checking me! I was managing very well while squatting, but that's an inconvenient position for the baby catcher!

 

I hope you didn't take offense to what I said- because like I said, I've been that woman having the natural birth. I PLANNED to stay home until the end, but I ended up going into labor early, and then stalling out, and then ending up with an induction. Inductions are dangerous, hence the interventions. But I get wanting to do it "your way" regardless, because I've been there. Even with the bellowing (although I think I was screaming and cussing the last hour LOL).

 

Not being trained to sit and watch doesn't mean that the nurses shouldn't ALWAYS treat you with respect. My whole point is simply that I was annoyed with the BOBB movie in that they made doctors and nurses out to be villains for doing what we are trained to do.

[Shamzanne]

I first gave birth in rural KY and now live in a progressive west coast city - the difference in the entire birthing experience is drastic. In KY, I had a very kind and gentle doctor who was used to women wanting all the intervention they could get. When I told him in advance that I wanted a drug free birth he said I would be the only patient in 5 years who actually didn't want an epidural.

 

I went into labor perfectly naturally but slowly. My doctor casually said that he'd let me go for a few hours then they would induce. The only reason is that he didn't want to come back in the wee hours of the morning. When I told him that I would only be induced if it were medically necessary, he acquiesced but seemed sheepish... He wasn't used to patients knowing what they want and being willing to speak up. That is my beef - doctors and nurses taking advantage of trusting, uninformed patients to suit their own purposes, not the best interests of the patients.

 

I also had to tell the nurses to stop trying to talk me into having an epidural. I had to be forceful... they were really putting the pressure on. The documentary takes a fairly strong stance, but lets be honest, if it wasn't somewhat controversial it wouldn't get watched by many. I hope it at least helps some women make informed choices and stand up to medical staff for their own best interest.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Shanzanne
clarification

[Dory]

As a nurse (who hasn't worked the OB floor for 30 years, but has worked it) and a patient who has had three vaginal births, the last one pain-med free.... I can tell you that 99 percent of patients ARE on Pit. That many of these patients do have c sections. That many doctors are so afraid of being sued that they like to take the most predictable route, which is a c section to ensure everyone's safety.

 

My mom was a nurse as was my aunt. Hearing the difference between what you just said, and what I've heard from them, is shocking to me. Up here doctors are pretty big on having as little intervention as possible. But I don't think we have as many lawsuits either.

[JoLuRu]

No offense taken, Bugsmama! I grew up with my L&D mom and I know that she (and other nurses and doctors just like her) are in it because they want the best outcome for their patients. But I think the protocol makes it hard to see the individual patient at times.

 

I was angry at the doctor after the birth of my son. I had a healthy baby in the end, but I had been polite but clear about wishing for the least possible intervention and was still pressured to hurry up for his convenience, or have a medically unnecessary C-section. A mom without the kind of advocate that I had would have had a harder time with that situation, without knowing she can say no to the doctor (this is still very difficult for many women, especially if the idea that it might be harmful to her baby is involved).

 

My husband told the nurse who complained about my bellowing that I was "getting in touch with my inner moose." :lol:

 

That is my beef - doctors and nurses taking advantage of trusting, uninformed patients to suit their own purposes, not the best interests of the patients.

 

I also had to tell the nurses to stop trying to talk me into having an epidural. I had to be forceful... they were really putting the pressure on.

 

I'm in a progressive West Coast city and had all of this in my birth experiences.

[Love_to_Read]

To the OP:

 

I'm glad you had a good enough hospital experience, that you don't have to second-guess your own c/s.

Seriously, that's great that you had decent staff. Saves you a lot of heartache and hindsight.

 

There are a lot of women who don't have that. Does the movie show a balance btw their experiences and yours? No. It is rather one-sided. But that side exists. Big time.

[BugsMama]

My mom was a nurse as was my aunt. Hearing the difference between what you just said, and what I've heard from them, is shocking to me. Up here doctors are pretty big on having as little intervention as possible. But I don't think we have as many lawsuits either.

 

That's funny- Maybe it's regional. I've worked two L&D floors, one in central California, one in southern. Both larger, busy hospitals. One of them talked big talk about being natural birth friendly, and they were.... sort of. They're still going to pit you, if not before birth, immediately after.

[dansamy]

I'm a terrible preggo. I developed full blown HELLP syndrome with my first and severe pre-eclampsia with my 2nd and 3rd. Everyone was preterm by emergency c/s. The first was under GA. 2 & 3 were epidurals. 100 years ago, my oldest child would certainly have died. I probably would have died as well. For me, medical intervention was an absolute necessity.

[Mama Geek]

I haven't seen the movie. I did have a doc that was great. He had no problems with natural childbirth. He met at least one of his office nurses while doing his internship at a birthing center. She kind of trained him:D. Only after I was well passed my due date did he talk of doing an induction. He went over the potential health problems with going more than 42 weeks. I did end up not being induced. I went through about 14 hours of labor, the nursing staff did ask if I wanted drugs once or maybe twice and I said no. There was no bullying or no being coerced into it. Dd did get into trouble and the doc did end up doing a c-section, her heartrate wasn't doing what it was supposed to. Dh and I trusted the doctor well before the baby was delivered and we went with his advice for an emergency c-section. He was also a doctor came in no matter what time it was, he didn't have another doc deliver babies for him except for extenuating circumstances (while I was pregnant he did have to go out of country because one of his parents was dying.)

 

I guess it comes down to we found a doctor that we liked, respected, and trusted who was all in favor of natural childbirth and we followed his advice when things didn't go the way they should.

[amy g.]

I think it depends on the area. There are ABSOLUTELY hospitals like that here. In fact, when I was pregnant with my son, the hospital I visited said outright,we will not allow an unmedicated birth here." Right there at the nurses station, they explained how every woman is given pitocin and and epidural.

 

One nurse can control the dosage so that they deliver in order, when their doctors arrive. They were laughing imagining the screaming and chaos they would have on that floor if they allowed natural childbirth.

 

I know the movie is not an exaggeration for some areas.

 

I was fortunate that I was able to fight for the births I wanted, but they don't make it easy. I had 3 unmedicated births in hospitals, and 2 in birthing centers. In order to go to the birthing center, I had to pay $800 more than I would have had to pay for a hospital birth, even though the birth itself was so much cheaper.

 

It doesn't make any sense.

[Mom-ninja.]

Yes, there are hospitals and OBs that are like the movie said. Many. I had one. Ended up with a c-section. Why? Nurse told me. The Dr. wanted to leave as he had dinner plans. There was zero medical reason for my surgery. Why did I consent? I didn't. I was begging the Dr. not to. He pressured and finally told my DH that if we didn't do a c-section at that time we would risk having to do a stat c-section later and really why would he want to put his wife and baby at risk?

 

So guilt trip. That's what made my dh sign....all the while I was crying and saying no.

[Soror]

If you look at the rates of inductions, epidurals and csections in this country it is obvious that a lot of areas are like this. Medically the csection rate should be around 5-10%, but we are at 30%. More c-sections don't mean it is safer for mom or baby, but actually more dangerous. For some women and babies they are absolutely needed, as I said about 5-10% but otherwise it is MORE dangerous to mom and baby. The problem is the birth process in many areas leads to c-sections, inductions and epidurals (especially how they are done and the timing) increase the risk and the number of c-sections.

 

I've had 1 hospital and 2 homebirths. My hospital birth actually went pretty well but I searched out for the only good ob in town. Others routinely induce at 37-38 weeks for convenience. Did anyone read that study last week about how babies born term but early - ie 37-39 weeks are shown to be at a disadvantage statistically than those born at term.

 

There are times when intervention is needed but those exceptions don't make the rule. It doesn't make intervention or csections safe or good for everyone. It just means for a small number of certain people it is the safest option given the circumstances. We need to stop creating those circumstances where they doesn't exist.

[Lily_Grace]

IIRC, didn't the pregnant friend at the end of the documentary have a c-section? I thought they did a fairly balanced job of exploring the history of hospitalized births and the way our country handles them.

[ktgrok]

First: NO ONE, absoutely NO ONE in that movie says that c-sections are not sometimes needed. In fact, several people in the movie say they are VERY thankful they exist, and the producer of the film has a c-section herself at the end, and is grateful for it. C-sections are life saving, and should account for about 10 percent of births, according to the WHO. Studies show that when the number goes below 10 percent, or above 15 percent, maternal morbidity goes up. Yet my local hospitals all have rates around 40 percent! Two are ABOVE 40 percent!!!!!!! And down south, in Dade County, the rate for the whole county is about 50 percent! Some hospitals are as high as 70 percent!

 

There is NO medical justification for a c-section rate that high. NONE. Oh, and the same hospital near me that has the 41 percent c-section rate also published its data on non medical inductions. NON medical inductions were over 30 percent of their births. Again, there is absolutely no way to justify that. And that isn't uncommon for my area, they are just the only ones to publish their data on that stat.

 

My ex is an RN. When he was doing a rotation in Labor and Delivery, in a different part of the state, about 2 years ago, he told me he didn't see a SINGLE woman deliver without pitocin. (well, the c-section births didn't of course). Not one! Again, there is NO medical justification to say that ALL women need pitocin.

 

So yes, at least in Florida, that movie is 100 percent indicative of the norm.

 

Also, emotionally, there IS a difference between having a c-section that was needed, and having one that wasn't. I am part of ICAN and we see women with both. We even have a few members that had an initial c-section that they feel wasn't needed, and was traumatic for them, but went on to have needed repeat surgeries that were very healing. It isn't the method of birth that is the issue as much as the total lack of informed consent, the bullying of women at a time when they are vulnerable, and the pushing of what is convenient for doctors over what is good for the mom and baby.

 

When we as a nation have a c-section rate so high that one in three babies is born via surgery, where more women are induced than not, where women are denied the ability to VBAC not for medical reasons but for insurance reasons (VBAC patients are not more likey to have problems than c-section moms, but ARE more likely to sue) and yes, I've had 3 different doctors, in 3 parts of the state TELL me that to my face...yeah...that movie is accurate.

[ktgrok]

I'm a terrible preggo. I developed full blown HELLP syndrome with my first and severe pre-eclampsia with my 2nd and 3rd. Everyone was preterm by emergency c/s. The first was under GA. 2 & 3 were epidurals. 100 years ago, my oldest child would certainly have died. I probably would have died as well. For me, medical intervention was an absolute necessity.

 

And you would be in the about 10 percent or so of women that NEEDS a c-section. The problem is that in my area 40 percent of women are having c-sections. Do you see how that is a huge problem?

[ktgrok]

I'll admit with my second I asked to be induced. I was 2 weeks past due, but yeah I asked for it. I guess I don't like surprises. And it was a midwife who agreed to it.

 

Being 2 weeks past due would count as a medical induction, so wouldn't be included in the 30 percent stat I quoted. 30 percent of births at my local hospital are NON medical inductions.

[chepyl]

I have been in two hospitals with two doctors, one in a small down and one in a large metro area. I had a c-section with DS. I was in labor for 56 hours. The doctor broke my water after over 48 hours and I progressed from a 2 to a 10 in a few hours where nothing had happebed for two days before that. I said I did not want an epidural, so the anesthesiologist went home for the night. When they told me no more iv meds after 8 cm when I hit 7....I vhanhed my mind. They had to call him back in. I felt bad, but it was a good decision in the end. I pushed once and ds's heart stopped. I went right into a c-section. The cord was wrapped very tightly around his neck. I know people deliver with the cord around the neck all the time, but I honestly believe my son would not have been okay.

 

I was more convinced.of thos.after DD's drug free Vbac. I had to push for two hours, partly because I have big babies, but partly because I did not know how to push the right way. I had an awesom doctor and nurses who were teaching me and helping me everyway possible. Had I pushed for 2 hours with my son's heart stopping, he would have had problems. He was slightly blue when he was born as it was.

 

I was in charge of all decisions regarding the birth of both of my children, my first doc left the water breaking up to me. He said to go check into the hospital when and if I wanted to have it done. I was exhausted and chose an intervention. I had educated myself before going into labor. I educated myself even more before going to the doctor with DD. I researched hospitals and doctors.

 

I do think many women are not educated about childbirth. I have friends who have ahd traumatic experiences because they did not self-educate and they had bushy doctors. Some do push pitocin to have a baby on their schedule. My SIL had the on call doctor try to do It to her, she said no and that she was fine waiting until her doctor came in. She had educated herself.

 

I do dislike the documentaries that make all doctors and hospitals look evil. It is just not true. I think there are better and more effective ways to educate women in childbirth. Scare tactics lead some women to avoid a hospital birth when it may actually become necessary.

[Annabel Lee]

I think things are deliberately hyperbolic and the very extremes are emphasized in order to point to the problem as a whole.

 

It is true that inductions are dangerous and overused for convenience. Does saying that imply that inductions are never necessary? Of course not.

 

It is true that there are more risks to the mother with a c-section and that the c-section rates are too high. Does saying that imply that c-sections are never necessary? No.

 

It is true that under ideal circumstances homebirth is perfectly safe. That doesn't mean that hospital births are *not* safe.

 

All of those things are true, saying so doesn't take away from someone else's experience. I think people often take things personally that shouldn't be personal. Facts are not personal. It isn't about the individual, it is about women as a whole. Sure we could all discuss our very necessary c-sections (and I had c-sections) but that still doesn't change that the c-section rate is hovering at over 30% and it should be lower.

 

Women should have choices available to them. It will make our future daughters and daughters in law safer.

 

:iagree: 100%

 

 

The Business of Being Born reveals what I went through.

 

:iagree: It showed what I went through as well.

 

You get the same end result. Who cares how it got there?

 

OK, I get your basic point and agree that your kids aren't going to fare worse than Rikki Lake's or any other home-birthed babies just because of how they were born. I'll give you that. BUT, I think what you might be missing, between all the hyperbole, is the basic point from the other POV.

 

<Edited to remove way too much personal info from the web>

 

So yeah, the end result would have been a lot different had I been around some of the more natural method folks. Last 2 births were nightmares in so many ways. With my last dc, it was a year-long struggle and 2 surgeries that resulted from the neglect of mainstream docs, things that midwives would have known to look for. The end result would have been a LOT different had I known about any of the more natural methods back then, or especially had we had financial access to midwife or natural birth center. My oldest needed the technology available at the hospital or would have been in danger. So, I see both sides of the coin.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Annabel Lee
TMI on the internet, whoops

[ktgrok]

Ah. Although you have to admit that being able to plan which day you will go in is helpful. I know that probably sounds awful, but lets face it, there are a lot of people who are in a position who need to know. I planned to work up until the day. KWIM? Although that didn't work out because I had preterm labor and was told to take it easy. So I ended up going on short term disability. So I definitely understand why some people want it. Although I don't think being induced is in the same league as a c-section. I can't fathom electing to do that.

 

That was the situation a friend was in. Her husband only got a few days off work, so she wanted to schedule an induction so he could have the weekend off with her before going back to work. It was her second baby, so she figured it would be fine. She ended up with a c-section, which is common with induction. Instead of an easy vaginal birth and only a few days with her husband she ended up recovery from surgery for weeks, without her husband.....it was a bad gamble and she really regrets it.

 

Being induced carries risks to the baby, and makes it much more likely you will end up with a surgical birth, which also has risks. Sometimes the risks of staying pregnant are higher than the risks of induction (such as with pre-eclampsia, or with a deteriorating placenta), and in those cases thank heaven we have the technology to do them. But doing them when there is no medical indication means putting mom and baby at higher risk.

[susancollins]

My cousin is having her 2nd baby a little girl this fall. The only local hospital doesn't permit VBACs so she has to have another c-section this fall. I have had three hospital births every time I was given pitocin and had interventions pushed at me. My fourth child was born at a free standing birth center the midwives have privileges at a major university hospital. The birth center was the most peaceful experience. If God bless us with another baby I will go back to the birth center

[jillian]

I almost died during my c-section because my pressure dropped so low due to the massive amounts of medication I needed to stop my pain. I have sense learned that dd was sunny side up and that my uterus normally is extremely posterior (now that we are going through infertility I discovered this). They also removed a cyst in my uterine cavity without asking permission and that wasn't causing problems (I had had it for years). They informed dh and me after the fact. I was also stuck into a general surgery recovery room because they ran out of L&D rooms (they had just redone their L&D unit and only put in 8 rooms, it was a military hospital).

[Momof3littles]

And you would be in the about 10 percent or so of women that NEEDS a c-section. The problem is that in my area 40 percent of women are having c-sections. Do you see how that is a huge problem?

In my last home state, one hospital had very cushy rooms, 24 hour room service, etc. and over a 40% c-s rate. And they didn't cater to high risk women, weren't a teaching hospital, etc.

 

When people say "why does it matter how the baby enters the world, as long as everything works out safely," It is also important to remember that it isn't just the primary c-s (which has risks to the baby's lungs and breathing, risks to mom, etc.) but also that primary c-s often means the woman will now have to be concerned about rupture in subsequent pregnancies. She may not have the option to vbac in her area, even if she's a good candidate (based on NIH report on vbac for example). That means her subsequent pregnancies have an increased risk of rupture, and her subsequent births may have to be via repeat c/s. That comes with risks to baby's lungs, etc. all going back to that primary c/s.

 

Yes, they are absolutely sometimes necessary. As a mom who had a FSBC birth and a homebirth, I am thankful they exist! They certainly can be life saving. That doesn't mean I agree with their overuse, or with across the board defacto bans on vbac for women who are good candidates, etc. My concern is that it isn't just the baby born via that primary c/s that has risks, but the women's subsequent pregnancies that may see increased risks due to an unneeded primary c/s. Obviously, when truly needed the benefits outweigh the risks, no doubt! But when they are overused, you are impacting not just that baby, but possibly subsequent pregnancies and the babies born to that mom.

 

eta: I had a good first birth overall in a hospital with a CNM. I drove out of my way to go to a less intervention happy hospital. The closest hospital did not allow eating or drinking in labor, mandated minimum of a hep lock, etc. and I started figuring out quickly that they were a bit intervention happy. I had a doula who gently kind of prodded my thinking along about that, knowing what I wanted. She gently pointed out it might be tough to come by in that hospital, and I think she was absolutely correct. I also feel pretty confident advocating for myself-I have a background in healthcare, I am not terribly intimidated by medical issues, I had read the research on various topics, etc. For many women, it can feel scary, intimidating, etc. to rock the boat and decline certain procedures and interventions. I have friends who have had "stretch and sweep" of their membranes without their consent, for example. Stuff like that would infuriate me, yet they were afraid to tell their docs that they didn't appreciate not having a chance to decline such a procedure. I think it can be really tough to advocate for yourself when you are feeling vulnerable, particularly for those who aren't used to saying no. Some hospitals naturally use more evidence-based medicine, and don't push unnecessary procedures and interventions. Others, well, not so much. Many women can stack the deck in their favor in a hospital, but for some women that can be very difficult depending on their care provider, standard procedures at that hospital, etc.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Momof3littles

[PeacefulChaos]

Thank you all for your replies and experiences!

I will be honest and say that part of me had to question the reality of the film because of my having 'lucked out' with a hospital and doctors that are so accepting of natural birth. I just thought what are the chances, kwim? :) It really is news to me that this is the reality in many places and that so many people have actually had experiences like this. Around here that sort of thing is relatively unheard of.

 

I think it matters very much.

 

That being said, I am not one of those die-hard, crunchy, eat my placenta types that thinks home birthing is the ONLY way. I have had my last 2 at home and I am thankful for the experience and think it went well. It wasn't some orgasmic ecstasy, change my whole life experience, but it was nice to have my baby at home and not have to worry about grumpy nurses or rushing to the hospital in time. That was REALLY nice to leave behind as I usually arrive in transition and it was just a horrible experience in that regard in the hospitals.

 

My hospital births were not horrible, so I was lucky in that regard. I did have pitocin for one. I am thankful to not have needed a C/S and I had a Dr. who refused to give me one even when I begged (with my first baby, I was 19 and had no idea how terrible labor could be) :lol:

 

I do know, because of liability issues, doctors really have their hands tied and need to be OVERLY cautious, to a fault. Some will go against the grain and do what is best for the mom, but many are so worried about getting sued and trying to see as many patients as possible to pay for their crazy malpractice insurance rates, med school loans etc, etc, that they don't have much time to devote to each woman and long labors.

I remember thinking, while watching, that it actually has a lot to do with the American culture as a whole that we have ended up like this - that it isn't actually the fault of the doctors themselves, or the big evil hospitals who decided they wanted to push stuff on us that we didn't want. They mentioned malpractice and how they are so afraid of being sued that sometimes it is easier just to do a c-section, because they have all the variables under control.

I think we live in an overly sue-happy society, where people think they can and should sue for everything, so this didn't surprise me and I just saw it as an unfortunate way that our 'cultural norms' have affected medicine.

FTR, I also do not think a woman should be able to just walk in and say, 'I want a c-section' for convenience's sake. I don't buy into doctors inducing early because 'the baby is too big' (especially since, the last I heard, they can't actually TELL how big a baby is - not to mention how would they know whether or not the woman could deliver it naturally?) So I don't want to sound like I think birth is all about the convenience.

This is such a huge generalization that it astonishes me you would say it here on this board where there are thousands of women with different stories. Of course it matters to both mother and baby.

 

No one that is a serious home birth advocate would say (and I don't think Ricky Lake would say) that hospitals and emergency C sections don't serve an important purpose--when they are needed and required. Of course they do! One of my best friends would be dead without her C--but she did not elect the C--it was a result of bleeding that would have killed both she and her son.

 

With that said, it is absolutely a fact that Cs are WAYYYY overused in this country in comparison with other nations and there are complications and dangers from them. As someone else in this thread said--this is major surgery and some women choose this form of delivery for convenience. There are real dangers that come with this surgery to the mom and to the baby. Women still die from complications from C sections!

 

Women in our country should have a choice as to where they birth. It is increasingly harder and harder to find a midwife in many places in this country. That is just crazy to me. And doctors *do* force their patients into meds and procedures they don't want because it is inconvenient for them to wait on the baby. There is no choice at all in that--for mom or for baby.

 

Women should educate themselves. You don't have to like this movie, but it does serve an important purpose. This stuff IS going on around the country and women should know what they are getting into with both a hospital and a home birth.

 

There is a WORLD of difference in the kind of birth one has and how it affects both the mother and the baby. To say it doesn't matter because you end up with the same result is not factual at all.

I guess I just don't see it that way. In the end, if the baby is healthy, and mom is healthy (though I think most moms would be willing to be a little less than healthy if it was absolutely necessary to their baby's survival) I don't know what people have to complain about. I'm not trying to sound harsh or blase - I just think that in the end, there is a baby. I'm not talking about traumatic experiences that people wish hadn't happened or would have liked to do differently, I'm just talking about the process. I think that most moms who don't have the 'standard' natural birth don't feel like they've missed out on anything. I certainly don't. And I think that it's rude and assuming for others (not you) to think that we have. The fact is, I'm glad that we tried it 'normal' first. And I'm glad I never did it again, because I wasn't willing to go through that again. And in the end, I'm glad that my children got here and were healthy.

To the OP:

 

I'm glad you had a good enough hospital experience, that you don't have to second-guess your own c/s.

Seriously, that's great that you had decent staff. Saves you a lot of heartache and hindsight.

 

There are a lot of women who don't have that. Does the movie show a balance btw their experiences and yours? No. It is rather one-sided. But that side exists. Big time.

I think the movie is a bit more of a special interest piece, as opposed to a documentary.

I have thought to myself that the high mortality rates of both infants and mothers is very strange. I don't see how it is possible. I can't help but wonder if it has more to do (again) with our societal norms or with moms not taking care of themselves than with the hospitals themselves. I mean, I just don't see it... what is it that these hospitals are supposedly doing that is killing all these people? :001_huh:

I have been in two hospitals with two doctors, one in a small down and one in a large metro area. I had a c-section with DS. I was in labor for 56 hours. The doctor broke my water after over 48 hours and I progressed from a 2 to a 10 in a few hours where nothing had happebed for two days before that. I said I did not want an epidural, so the anesthesiologist went home for the night. When they told me no more iv meds after 8 cm when I hit 7....I vhanhed my mind. They had to call him back in. I felt bad, but it was a good decision in the end. I pushed once and ds's heart stopped. I went right into a c-section. The cord was wrapped very tightly around his neck. I know people deliver with the cord around the neck all the time, but I honestly believe my son would not have been okay.

 

I was more convinced.of thos.after DD's drug free Vbac. I had to push for two hours, partly because I have big babies, but partly because I did not know how to push the right way. I had an awesom doctor and nurses who were teaching me and helping me everyway possible. Had I pushed for 2 hours with my son's heart stopping, he would have had problems. He was slightly blue when he was born as it was.

 

I was in charge of all decisions regarding the birth of both of my children, my first doc left the water breaking up to me. He said to go check into the hospital when and if I wanted to have it done. I was exhausted and chose an intervention. I had educated myself before going into labor. I educated myself even more before going to the doctor with DD. I researched hospitals and doctors.

 

I do think many women are not educated about childbirth. I have friends who have ahd traumatic experiences because they did not self-educate and they had bushy doctors. Some do push pitocin to have a baby on their schedule. My SIL had the on call doctor try to do It to her, she said no and that she was fine waiting until her doctor came in. She had educated herself.

 

I do dislike the documentaries that make all doctors and hospitals look evil. It is just not true. I think there are better and more effective ways to educate women in childbirth. Scare tactics lead some women to avoid a hospital birth when it may actually become necessary.

 

:iagree:

[stripe]

I believe it. But I think it's sort of emotional and dramatic in its tone. The US has an outrageously high c-section rates. The World Health Organization thinks it's way too high. These are not emergencies -- they're scheduled for business hours. I know someone who went to the doctor, and at the first prenatal appt, was asked if she wanted to schedule an induction, and she wasn't shocked! I live in a place where midwives have had a big i,pact, and I went to a midwife for two births -- on purpose. A very large number of the women I know had a c-section for their first birth. Some were "allowed" to have vbacs when that was the trend. I think the whole thing is sick. Of course we want c-sections when required, and inductions when required, but not just because people don't want the hassle of unpredictable labor. Or because people sue for every little thing. Or because parents feel they have to sue to pay for the lifetime of care of their children with health problems because otherwise they won't be able to afford it (not an issue in some other countries).

 

Let's put it this way. The nurse who was at the birth of one of my kids, was really excited to have seen a birth without interventions. I got the impression it was pretty rare.

Edited July 10, 2012 by stripe

[Alice]

To the OP:

 

I get what you are saying. I haven’t seen the movie. As someone who works in hospitals I do think that C-sections are often done when they are not necessary (and often done when they are necessary). I tend to think the reasons aren’t just “big business” but are often doctors/hospitals who are opting for being overly cautious in a litigious society. OBs can be sued for 18 years for things that happen at birth. That’s a huge malpractice burden. And certainly once you enter the hospital culture there is a tendency to medicalize the normal. I see that in pediatrics too, and often from parents as well as doctors.

 

I had three C-sections. Looking back I’m not sure if the first one was truly necessary or one of those that had things been allowed to go a different way might not have happened. I opted for repeat C-sections with the others as I really didn’t want to go through labor again only to have to have C-sections anyway. My experience was similar to yours in that I didn’t feel like I bonded less with my babies because of how they were born, I didn’t feel like I was somehow a victim of the medical system, I didn’t regret my birth experience. I was just happy to have my babies.

 

I do realize many other women have a different story and feel that they should have the place to tell that experience. But what I often feel is that there is a certain smugness about those who have “natural births” or are really into the “beauty of birth” where it’s implied if not out right stated that those who have their children another way have somehow missed out. I felt the same way about breastfeeding with my oldest. We had a terrible time and I ended up pumping and feeding. I was able to give him EBM only for over a year, but I always felt a little bit like less of a mother. I really had to get over that. I was able to breastfeed fine with the others but I have to say I feel no less bonded to him than to them.

 

I think it’s good for people who have had bad experiences to point to problems in the medical system. I think it’s fine for them to grieve their own sense of loss. But I think it’s a problem when those who have had a different experience are made to feel like they somehow failed or are less of a mother.

[ummix3]

I haven't come on to the boards for quite some time and I just found this thread. Tomorrow I actually have an appointment to see my MW, strange.

 

 

I had my four daughters at home (last was a waterbirth) with Cara Muhlhahn she's a wonderful MW. Many women I know have had her as well. She had been already involved in midwifery/obstetrics for more than 20 years before she participated in the documentary. Since the documentary she has been referred to as a "celebrity MW" like she became a MW during or after the movie, nonsense. We're planning on or fifth and I'm actually off to see her tomorrow for an appointment.:001_smile:

 

 

 

Oh and BTW since having my first daughter back in 1999 it seems that the MW's (and home birthing ones at that) in the tri-state (NY) have tripled.

 

 

Michelle

[Tarreymere]

I think that the parts about moms not caring about their babies if they deliver one particular way or other is baloney, but as a former OB nurse (including working as a travelling OB nurse all over the USA) and having trained as a nurse midwife I do have to say that the book is quite accurate. Lying to pregnant women to manipulate them into agreeing with what the doctor wants to do to suit his or her personal preferences or agenda is more common that you imagine. Yes, I also have personally witnessed providers at dozens of hospitals 'lying through their teeth' to pregnant women during labor and delivery, and believe me the way those providers present themselves to those women talking all nice and respectfully is NOT how they talk about them at the nurse's station. I have also personally witnessed numerous providers making decisions about managing a particular woman's labor and delivery according to the provider's personal schedule, agenda, or vacation plans, none of which was disclosed to the laboring woman, believe me!

 

I actually got out of the profession altogether because I couldn't stand to be a part of the mismanagement and lying and manipulation anymore. I've seen women nearly die many times because of the provider's stupid choices or lack of interest in what was actually going on with a given woman and her baby. I would really love to see some kind of enforceable national standards of care with full transparency in obstetrics, and providers who refuse to actually provide OB care to standard need to be removed from the profession. That will never happen, it is too big a racket for the providers who are making too much money, and women in the US are too brain-washed into thinking that the doctor has actually has their best interests at heart. They don't.

 

My experience has been that it is extremely rare to find a provider who is actually interested in providing safe, honest OB care to women. So if you feel you have found such a creature, good for you. I'm sure there are one or two out there.......but I doubt there are more than that.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Rainefox

[Annie]

Also, emotionally, there IS a difference between having a c-section that was needed, and having one that wasn't. I am part of ICAN and we see women with both. We even have a few members that had an initial c-section that they feel wasn't needed, and was traumatic for them, but went on to have needed repeat surgeries that were very healing. It isn't the method of birth that is the issue as much as the total lack of informed consent, the bullying of women at a time when they are vulnerable, and the pushing of what is convenient for doctors over what is good for the mom and baby.

 

Exactly! There is a huge emotional difference between a csection you choose to have to protect yourself or your baby and one you're coerced into having or are forced to have due to a cascade of interventions.

 

My planned home birth turned into a csection after seven hours of pushing with no progress (there were some pretty tough positional issues). I had burst capillaries from so much pushing, and my body was completely spent. I listened to what my body told me, and I reached a point where I just knew that it was time for him to come out even though we were both still stable for the time being. The choice was mine, nobody talked me into it, and that made all the difference. I *really* didn't want a csection, but I healed emotionally much more easily than friends who felt bullied. I had complications during surgery which mean that I am not a VBAC candidate, and that was hard for me to process even though I know my surgery was for the best. I can't imagine how the whole situation would have effected me if I had doubts about the need for the csection in the first place.

[DawnM]

I had no interest in that and you are confirming WHY!

Edited July 10, 2012 by DawnM

[ktgrok]

Thank you all for your replies and experiences!

I will be honest and say that part of me had to question the reality of the film because of my having 'lucked out' with a hospital and doctors that are so accepting of natural birth. I just thought what are the chances, kwim? :) It really is news to me that this is the reality in many places and that so many people have actually had experiences like this. Around here that sort of thing is relatively unheard of.

 

Ok, I have to know. where are you??? I think I want to move there, lol.

 

I remember thinking, while watching, that it actually has a lot to do with the American culture as a whole that we have ended up like this - that it isn't actually the fault of the doctors themselves, or the big evil hospitals who decided they wanted to push stuff on us that we didn't want. They mentioned malpractice and how they are so afraid of being sued that sometimes it is easier just to do a c-section, because they have all the variables under control.

I think we live in an overly sue-happy society, where people think they can and should sue for everything, so this didn't surprise me and I just saw it as an unfortunate way that our 'cultural norms' have affected medicine.

 

When I first researched VBAC, years ago, I googled it. And the first 5 sites that popped up were law practices looking for women to sue their doctors. Yeah..that's an issue.

 

FTR, I also do not think a woman should be able to just walk in and say, 'I want a c-section' for convenience's sake. I don't buy into doctors inducing early because 'the baby is too big' (especially since, the last I heard, they can't actually TELL how big a baby is - not to mention how would they know whether or not the woman could deliver it naturally?) So I don't want to sound like I think birth is all about the convenience.

 

I guess I just don't see it that way. In the end, if the baby is healthy, and mom is healthy (though I think most moms would be willing to be a little less than healthy if it was absolutely necessary to their baby's survival) I don't know what people have to complain about.

 

 

 

Well, if it was unneeded surgery there is the weeks of pain and discomfort...that seems like something to complain about. If someone did an uneeded gall bladder surgery on you, for convenience, wouldn't you be upset?

Also, the idea that "mom and baby are healthy" is a bit simplistic. It is simple fact that by having a c-section mom's chances of dying raise by 3 times that over a vaginal birth. That's a lot. Also, even more glaring, it drastically increases the chances of mom having an ectopic pregnancy in the future, or of the placenta attaching incorrectly in a future pregnancy. Placenta accreta is a horrid horrid complication that can be very life threatening, and having a c-section in a previous pregnancy is a huge risk factor. So there are VERY real reasons to be unhappy if all this happens to you and you don't need it.

 

Finally, there are the emotional issues. Look at it like a wedding. Some women just want a small ceremony, maybe justice of the peace or what not. Some want a big wedding and plan on it since they were small. Imangine if you planned a nice church wedding with all your friends and family, and a nice reception with your favorite song to dance to with your husband, and then a romantic honeymoon, but got in a car accident on the way to the church. You need emergency surgery to remove your spleen and repair a broken leg. You have a justice of the peace come to the hospital room afterwards to preform a brief wedding ceremony but the friends and family can't all be there, there is no reception, no first dance with your husband, and no romantic honeymoon. Instead you spend the first 6 weeks or so of your new marriage hobbling around in pain. You can't even consummate the marriage for weeks. Would you be disappointed and upset? Of course! Now, yes, you'd be grateful to be alive, and would realize the marriage is what is most important, not the wedding. But you'd be emotional about it probably, and always kind of have it in the back of your head that you missed out. Friends that chose to have a simple courthouse ceremony might not understand, and say it didn't matter, but it would matter to you. You'd get over it, but it would be a dissapointment. Birth is the same way. You can be VERY glad to be alive, glad your baby is alive, and still dissapointed that things didn't work out.