The Business of Being Born... are they for real?

[amo_mea_filiis.]

With my first, i was scared into getting an epidural. I was 17 and alone in the hospital. Prior to the epidural, i had been having some decent contractions, but still did not feel a thing. Nurse told me that i had to get it now or i would not be able to have it all. I was so drugged that my father and step mother had to keep waking me up to push. Post birth was a complete blur. I had to pee but no one would help and i ended up peeing on the floor (didnt make it to toilet) and just got back in bed. I could not stay awake at all. I tried to breastfeed but dd would not latch, so the nurse took her and gave her a bottle.

 

With ds, the nurses forgot to take me off magnesium. Told me to go to the bathroom alone after i asked because i had not been out of bed yet. And they refused to help with painful breastfeeding. They said that if it hurts to use a bottle.

 

If i ever had a third, it would be a homebirth provided all was as normal as the first two.

[happyhomemaker25]

I'm also wondering where you live.

 

I gave birth in 3 different states. In one state I was pressured by my OB to induce. I refused and she cranked up the pressure. When I agreed to be induced there was an actual medical reason and not a "what-if" which was what the doctor was going on previously. She apologized after the birth. The birth was quite stressful. I had an epidural and didn't feel the birth at all. Nursing was difficult and I couldn't walk for awhile. I never wanted an epidural again, but I did need it because of the pitocin. My son needed vacuum extraction because he was stuck. I do strongly believe that the pitocin lead to my need for an epidural which lead to me being immobile which led to my son getting stuck and a vaccuum extraction. I also believe that the nursing difficulties was related to the difficult birth. Add to that, after many days in the hospital and we wanted to leave the staff threatened that our insurance would pay nothing unless we stayed.

 

In another state I had the doctor tell me my baby could die if I didn't induce by my due date. I refused to go back to her and it was one week before my due date. Her medical reason was because I was borderline gestational diabetes. My baby was not measuring big at all and my blood sugar levels were always good without any insulin. I gave birth one day after my due date without any intervention in the hospital with my baby weighing under 7 lbs. I went in and a wonderful midwife was on staff. Together with my doula supporting me I was able to have a wonderful birth.

 

With my other birth my doctor was great. She gave me options and valued my decisions. Now, the hospital staff after birth is another story. I never left my baby out of my sight in a hospital after my experience there. In short, they gave my son something without my knowledge or permission and then proceeded to tell me that the doctor said my son needed formula:001_huh:

 

The Business of Being Born reveals what I went through. It isn't normal these days to give birth naturally in the hospital.

 

I had type 2 diabetes. I had the best pregnancy ever! Baby was good, I was good. My A1C was below 6. I was awesome. My OB wanted to induce at 38 weeks. I said, "No, 40." He said, "Diabetic babies are sometimes stillborn." I was having twice a week BPPs at this point. I said if there were any complications at a BPP I would agree to be induced. At 39w he started insisting. I was going to be 39w and 1 day on a Monday. I swore to anyone who would listen I was going into labor on Friday all by myself. My water broke at 2 a.m. Friday morning. DH freaked and we went to the hospital even though I was no where near contractions. I wanted to wait a little bit, maybe sleep. They started the pitocin when we got there. I did not want to start it yet, but my OB had written new orders that said pitocin. DH went ahead and told me to let them start it. So I did. I made it to 1 p.m. before getting the epidural. At 7 p.m. the nurse said that if I did not deliver in the next hour the OB would insist on a C-section. I was at 8 centimeters. She fudged the numbers and said I was about 1/2 a centimeter more so that he would not rush in and demand I get a C-section. I knew, knew, knew, I did not want a c-section. He kept insisting my baby was going to be huge just because I was diabetic. Never taking into account that my blood sugars were great, I'd only gained 25 pounds (about 15 of it that stinkin' month, LOL), and my A1C was less than 6. Diabetic babies are just big he kept insisting. I prayed for a whole hour with tears streaming down my face. I felt like my whole birth experience was being ripped from me because I was not a person, I was a statistic. No matter that I'd done everything I could to stay healthy during this pregnancy. The nurse came back in and with a huge smile told me it was time to push! I pushed for 2 hours and then she was here.

She weighed 7 pounds. My OB dropped whatever he had in his hand and demanded that repeat that number. He then looked at me and declared me his superstar hero while telling everyone in the room that he could not have been more wrong!

It ended up being good, but had real potential to end in a c-section I did not need. Baby's heart rate was good, I was doing fine, contractions were steady. My nurse, bless her heart, had to lie to keep me from having a c-section.

A friend had her first in the hospital with no drugs at all. No pitocin, no epi, no iv at all. After 20 hours of labor her Dr. stormed out of the room when she refused any intervention. They'd just checked baby's heart beat and it was perfect. He was very angry that she would not consent to intervention to gte the show on the road. We all knew it. She has had her last three at home with a midwife. She said she would never do it any other way as long as she can. Her iron levels were low at one point this pregnancy and she was open to a hospital birth if they did not go up. Thankfully, they did and she was fine. She's not someone who would refuse intervention if necessary. Nor would most people. If Drs. would start treating people like people instead of like statistics I think birth would be a better process. It's not a baby assembly line. Pop them out, hand them to mom, move to the next. Maybe that OB has been to over a hundred births, but this birth is special to that mom. She might never get to experience it again. I think OBs just need to take that into consideration a little bit more.

[Joanne]

The interventions between mother and child begin pre-conception. They begin with a culture of separation, profit, and medicalizing birth. The interventions are present ~ assumed a benign part of our culture ~ our entire lives. They exist in literature, books, media, T.V., movies, and in medical training.

 

There is an organized agenda against natural birth. And an organized agenda against natural minded mothering *after* birth. Ever walk into a Babies R Us? 90% of the products put distance between parents and baby.

 

I've helped and supported women during pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. I've done this in 2 states, across the span of 17 years. I've had 3 of my own kids in varying circumstances. Being born IS business, and pushing medicalization of birth is standard. It's on a continuum depending on geography, staff, shift, specific staff, but I'd say EVERYONE is on that continuum, having been born and indoctrinated into a culture in which pregnancy, birth and child rearing has garnered a price tag.

[ktgrok]

TEver walk into a Babies R Us? 90% of the products put distance between parents and baby.

 

 

LOL, you just reminded me of the first thing my sister picked out for this new baby she is having. It is some kind of "pocket nanny" that you use to time when you should feed/change/burp the baby. She was going on and on about it and I just was floored. I told her that I changed the baby when it was wet or stinky, and fed it when it was hungry. Really didn't require a lot of technology. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh, but she bought it anyway. And no, this is NOT her first baby.

[Amber in SJ]

With my first my water broke at 38 weeks, but no labor. It was a Saturday, so when we went to the hospital at 3am I saw whatever dr was on call. As soon as I walked in the door I was hooked up to monitors & the pit drip even though I said I didn't want either. The nurses and then doctor told me that if I didn't do as I was told I would be asked to leave the hospital, or they would mark my file as AMA and my insurance would not pay. My pit was up way too high and my contractions went through the roof. I was later told by a nurse that she had never seen someone have so much pitocin so fast. They also gave me an epidural. It didn't work. I began vomiting and one side of me was numb to the middle of my chest. It turns out the doctor had a 9am tee time and wanted my labor & delivery over. He missed the tee time and was very upset with me. He also said he had a lunch date he was not missing, so at noon they turned off my drip and he went to lunch. During this time several nurses came in and berated and belittled me for being such a "baby" about everything. They also gleefully told me to just wait until "real" labor hit. Then I would see what pain was. When the dr got back from lunch, they opened up my drip again, it took about an hour to get from 3cm to 10cm & the dr told me I could push with each contraction. He then left the room because, in his words, I was such a big baby that there was no way I would be able to push out my baby in less than 2 hours and his shift would be over and I would no longer be his problem. Dh & I were alone in the room for 15 minutes pushing through three contractions. The dr ran back into the room to catch the baby without putting down his phone. I had a terrible tear. That recovery was the most miserable of all 4 births.

 

For the next three births I went completely unmedicated. Yes, I had to fight the doctor & sometimes the nurses tooth & nail. Yes, there was always a moment when I announced that they would not be giving me pitocin or an epidural when everyone in the room stopped and stared. Yes, I was loud during transition. All of those labors were shorter, easier and had a better recovery than the first.

 

I am not trying to vilify medical professionals, but my experiences have led me to believe that the "too posh to push" mentality is alive and well in our big city, CA, and women are rarely given all the information they need to make decisions.

 

Amber in SJ

[ktgrok]

I guess I don't buy into it being a conspiracy. Maybe it's just a reality of our "modern" lives.

 

But I do admit I avoid doctors and hospitals because I do feel more like a number than a person when I go there. It also feels like half of what they do is completely unnecessary.

 

I don't think it is a conspiracy as in there are leaders somewhere trying to give women bad birth experiences. But there IS a group (ACOG) that systematically works to keep the monopoly they have over birth, even at the expense of science and health.

[CourtneyBrooke]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I have to add this:

My father is an obstetrician. He's delivered over 5,000 babies in 30 years. While the national c-section rate is 34%, his rate is 4%. And he's never ever lost a baby due to his choices.

 

Obviously there are unnecessary c-sections being done every day, to thousands of women. And c-sections are more dangerous than natural deliveries, under most circumstances.

 

Obviously they are needed on occasion, but not nearly the amount that they are being done, by doctors who don't want to be woken in the middle of the night, and doctors who want to be home by dinner, and doctors who are afraid of being sued (and rightly so!). I attended a delivery with my dad once, where he could've ordered a c-section. Instead, he and I both stayed at the hospital all night, sleeping in chairs, checking on the mother every so often, encouraging her that she could do it. And she did.

 

When I was pregnant with twins, I went to a doctor who said I *would* have a c-section. I said goodbye and walked out the door. Next pregnancy, I went to a different doctor who said I absolutely could NOT deliver at home. I did.

 

There are good doctors and midwives like my dad out there... ones who will not push c-sections or epidurals on you. They're just harder and harder to find.

[Veritaserum]

Not being trained to sit and watch doesn't mean that the nurses shouldn't ALWAYS treat you with respect. My whole point is simply that I was annoyed with the BOBB movie in that they made doctors and nurses out to be villains for doing what we are trained to do.

 

Two problems:

 

1. American obstetric providers are trained, as you have stated, to act--even when there is not an existing medical problem requiring that action. Interventions come with risks, thereby decreasing safety for mother and baby unless there is actually something going wrong. Pitting every woman is not at all justifiable for medical purposes, yet you said that it happened. THAT illustrates the underlying problem with American obstetrics. High intervention rates without medical justification have to have something to do with why our maternal and infant mortality rates are higher than those of industrialized countries that support birth as a natural process unless complications arise.

 

2. In my experience as a birthing mother and as a professional supporting birthing moms, respect is often absent. Mothers are often treated as children, berated, threatened, coerced, manipulated, and mocked by doctors and nurses. They should treat mothers with respect, but they often don't because their training has taught them that mothers need to be managed rather than be active participants in the process.

 

First: NO ONE, absoutely NO ONE in that movie says that c-sections are not sometimes needed. In fact, several people in the movie say they are VERY thankful they exist, and the producer of the film has a c-section herself at the end, and is grateful for it. C-sections are life saving, and should account for about 10 percent of births, according to the WHO. Studies show that when the number goes below 10 percent, or above 15 percent, maternal morbidity goes up. Yet my local hospitals all have rates around 40 percent! Two are ABOVE 40 percent!!!!!!! And down south, in Dade County, the rate for the whole county is about 50 percent! Some hospitals are as high as 70 percent!

 

There is NO medical justification for a c-section rate that high. NONE. Oh, and the same hospital near me that has the 41 percent c-section rate also published its data on non medical inductions. NON medical inductions were over 30 percent of their births. Again, there is absolutely no way to justify that. And that isn't uncommon for my area, they are just the only ones to publish their data on that stat.

 

My ex is an RN. When he was doing a rotation in Labor and Delivery, in a different part of the state, about 2 years ago, he told me he didn't see a SINGLE woman deliver without pitocin. (well, the c-section births didn't of course). Not one! Again, there is NO medical justification to say that ALL women need pitocin.

 

So yes, at least in Florida, that movie is 100 percent indicative of the norm.

 

Also, emotionally, there IS a difference between having a c-section that was needed, and having one that wasn't. I am part of ICAN and we see women with both. We even have a few members that had an initial c-section that they feel wasn't needed, and was traumatic for them, but went on to have needed repeat surgeries that were very healing. It isn't the method of birth that is the issue as much as the total lack of informed consent, the bullying of women at a time when they are vulnerable, and the pushing of what is convenient for doctors over what is good for the mom and baby.

 

When we as a nation have a c-section rate so high that one in three babies is born via surgery, where more women are induced than not, where women are denied the ability to VBAC not for medical reasons but for insurance reasons (VBAC patients are not more likey to have problems than c-section moms, but ARE more likely to sue) and yes, I've had 3 different doctors, in 3 parts of the state TELL me that to my face...yeah...that movie is accurate.

 

:iagree: In my experience working with birthing women, how they are treated has a HUGE impact on how they feel about themselves and their babies. I have had fully informed, supported moms rave positively about their natural-births-turned-c-section. Knowing that it was necessary and choosing it because it was makes a HUGE difference. I have had moms who on paper had the birth they wanted (unmedicated and vaginal), but they were depressed or traumatized because they were belittled and harassed throughout the process.

 

I had type 2 diabetes. I had the best pregnancy ever! Baby was good, I was good. My A1C was below 6. I was awesome. My OB wanted to induce at 38 weeks. I said, "No, 40." He said, "Diabetic babies are sometimes stillborn." I was having twice a week BPPs at this point. I said if there were any complications at a BPP I would agree to be induced. At 39w he started insisting. I was going to be 39w and 1 day on a Monday. I swore to anyone who would listen I was going into labor on Friday all by myself. My water broke at 2 a.m. Friday morning. DH freaked and we went to the hospital even though I was no where near contractions. I wanted to wait a little bit, maybe sleep. They started the pitocin when we got there. I did not want to start it yet, but my OB had written new orders that said pitocin. DH went ahead and told me to let them start it. So I did. I made it to 1 p.m. before getting the epidural. At 7 p.m. the nurse said that if I did not deliver in the next hour the OB would insist on a C-section. I was at 8 centimeters. She fudged the numbers and said I was about 1/2 a centimeter more so that he would not rush in and demand I get a C-section. I knew, knew, knew, I did not want a c-section. He kept insisting my baby was going to be huge just because I was diabetic. Never taking into account that my blood sugars were great, I'd only gained 25 pounds (about 15 of it that stinkin' month, LOL), and my A1C was less than 6. Diabetic babies are just big he kept insisting. I prayed for a whole hour with tears streaming down my face. I felt like my whole birth experience was being ripped from me because I was not a person, I was a statistic. No matter that I'd done everything I could to stay healthy during this pregnancy. The nurse came back in and with a huge smile told me it was time to push! I pushed for 2 hours and then she was here.

She weighed 7 pounds. My OB dropped whatever he had in his hand and demanded that repeat that number. He then looked at me and declared me his superstar hero while telling everyone in the room that he could not have been more wrong!

It ended up being good, but had real potential to end in a c-section I did not need. Baby's heart rate was good, I was doing fine, contractions were steady. My nurse, bless her heart, had to lie to keep me from having a c-section.

A friend had her first in the hospital with no drugs at all. No pitocin, no epi, no iv at all. After 20 hours of labor her Dr. stormed out of the room when she refused any intervention. They'd just checked baby's heart beat and it was perfect. He was very angry that she would not consent to intervention to gte the show on the road. We all knew it. She has had her last three at home with a midwife. She said she would never do it any other way as long as she can. Her iron levels were low at one point this pregnancy and she was open to a hospital birth if they did not go up. Thankfully, they did and she was fine. She's not someone who would refuse intervention if necessary. Nor would most people. If Drs. would start treating people like people instead of like statistics I think birth would be a better process. It's not a baby assembly line. Pop them out, hand them to mom, move to the next. Maybe that OB has been to over a hundred births, but this birth is special to that mom. She might never get to experience it again. I think OBs just need to take that into consideration a little bit more.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Soror]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I have to add this:

My father is an obstetrician. He's delivered over 5,000 babies in 30 years. While the national c-section rate is 34%, his rate is 4%. And he's never ever lost a baby due to his choices.

 

Obviously there are unnecessary c-sections being done every day, to thousands of women. And c-sections are more dangerous than natural deliveries, under most circumstances.

 

Obviously they are needed on occasion, but not nearly the amount that they are being done, by doctors who don't want to be woken in the middle of the night, and doctors who want to be home by dinner, and doctors who are afraid of being sued (and rightly so!). I attended a delivery with my dad once, where he could've ordered a c-section. Instead, he and I both stayed at the hospital all night, sleeping in chairs, checking on the mother every so often, encouraging her that she could do it. And she did.

 

When I was pregnant with twins, I went to a doctor who said I *would* have a c-section. I said goodbye and walked out the door. Next pregnancy, I went to a different doctor who said I absolutely could NOT deliver at home. I did.

 

There are good doctors and midwives like my dad out there... ones who will not push c-sections or epidurals on you. They're just harder and harder to find.

 

We need more OBs like him! I went to see an OB w/ dd1, he also delivered at home(he ended up too expensive and really too far away), that is a rare breed these days. It was a huge lose to the community when he died. I love the OB I used for ds and back-up for my others. Interventions should be as needed, not standard practice as they are.

Edited July 10, 2012 by soror

[dirty ethel rackham]

Doctors and OB nurses aren't really trained to do a normal, intervention free delivery.

 

We have protocols, and training to help you with the risky scary stuff. We are good at at.

 

And that is really sad. It is deplorable that most doctors and many nurses never actually see a normal birth. (I am not talking about a typical birth, but physiologically normal birth.) That is what is wrong with the system. We tell everyone that an OB is the Cadillac of maternity care (and that midwives just have less training), but the OB don't do normal birth. If OBs don't need to be trained in normal birth, then they shouldn't be seeing healthy patients, but the ones who are higher risk. In countries developed countries where midwives attend most births and OBs only see the patients that risk out of midwifery care, infant and maternal mortality rates are among the lowest in the world.

 

We aren't good at sitting on our hands watching you scream (and it's the rare woman who isn't a mess when it comes to natural childbirth).

I think this is a perjorative description of a laboring woman. Not all vocalizing is screaming and does not mean that she is a mess. And if she is screaming - she could need help - a better position, more positive support, access to tools that could help her be in less pain or fear. And even if she has all of that and is still screaming - so what? She is bringing a new life into the world and is working hard to do it.

 

But I get annoyed at getting down on doctors and nurses for doing what they are trained to DO. We are trained to ACT.

 

Again, what is sad here is that the action is often NOT in the best interests of the mother or the baby, but the hospital staff. That is what is wrong with the system - when factors other than healthy mom/healthy baby take precedence. While I do believe that a birth center or a home birth can be a healthier environment for low-risk women wanting a natural birth (I had my last baby at home to get away from the assault on my body that happened with my two hospital births,) the hospital system needs to be changed to improve the health and well-being of mothers wanting or needing a hosptial birth.

 

 

But yes- from the PP with a nurse mother- you DO need a patient advocate, because there are often other alternatives your doctor won't give you, because it isn't what they "typically" do, that are possibilities. You gotta educate yourself first, before going in. And you have to educate your doctor on your wants and needs before heading to the floor and throwing a fit to your nurse LOL. You don't want an IV? Great. Talk to your doctor, get that Saline Lock in your order, and I'll do it. The orders come pre-written from the doctor, letting us know in the 11th hour that guess what, you don't want monitored, won't really help any of us, because now we are scrambling to get new orders instead of taking care of you. We want to do what you want, but we need to KNOW what you want at get it approved so we can actually DO it. These things can be done in advance, talk about your birthplan in the last weeks of your pregnancy! LOL (Just a vent!)

 

Ok..... I think I am off the original topic..... off the soapbox....

 

I agree with you here. I taught childbirth classes for 12 years and we stressed positive communication with one's caregiver. It was better to learn early on if it was not a bad fit. What I hated was doctors who would tell a mom what she wanted to hear until about 37 weeks. Then Doctor Whateveryouwant suddenly turned into Doctor Loveeveryinterventioninthebook, when it became too late in the game to find a truly supportive healthcare provider.

[Momof3littles]

THe screaming comment is kind of what some people are talking about though. That is just...uncalled for, IMO.

 

I had a very easy labor with my first and did scream some while pushing during my unmedicated labor. Oh well. 95% of my labor was very easy overall, and I don't regret it for a second. So what is wrong with my screaming? It makes the staff...uncomfortable? It is too primal? What exactly is wrong with it? If you polled the women who went unmedicated and screamed, I would wager a bet a good # of them were still very happy with their decision and wouldn't want an epidural if you asked them after the fact. I was on a birth high, and the screaming was far behind me within seconds. And truly, most of the labor was very tolerable and comfortable, so I had no regrets about not getting an epi.

 

My second and third labors were also easy, and easier in the pushing phase. No screaming. (eta: and on those two births I didn't push until I couldn't avoid pushing, I chose my position, etc. whereas with my first I got "coached pushing" despite asking not to have it in my birthplan, and despite working with a CNM. SHe laughed when she saw my birthplan's mention of not wanting coached pushing saying that I would "want it" when the time came. Guess what? I didn't. And I went on to have two births where I didn't get coached pushing, and it was a much better, more comfortable, calmer experience. Less swelling in my perineum, no tearing, no super sore legs that felt like I had run a marathon. My legs were incredibly sore after my first birth, from the nurse and DH holding my legs back. I couldn't follow my own urges. So how much of my screaming while pushing in my first birth was because of that being foisted upon me when I asked to not have it? Coached pushing isn't linked to better outcomes. My (very medical) MW was going to give it to me whether I wanted it or not, as I'm sure is the case with many OBs.

 

But so what if I did scream? It doesn't make me a "mess" and doesn't make another woman a "mess" for screaming. That whole attitude is very insulting and I think there is a patriarchal origin to it. Sorry, but that's how I feel. And yes, I worked in healthcare as a physical therapist. I'm not anti medicine, anti healthcare worker, anti intervention. I do think the system as it is has serious, serious problems.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Momof3littles

[Lily_Grace]

LOL, you just reminded me of the first thing my sister picked out for this new baby she is having. It is some kind of "pocket nanny" that you use to time when you should feed/change/burp the baby. She was going on and on about it and I just was floored. I told her that I changed the baby when it was wet or stinky, and fed it when it was hungry. Really didn't require a lot of technology. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh, but she bought it anyway. And no, this is NOT her first baby.

 

Okay, I just have to say, the Itzbeen timer is awesome! I got one with my newborn two years ago and being able to look at it and figure out what my baby needed immediately when I was half asleep and wandering around in a daze...it was wonderful. It's not to time when to feed/sleep/medicate, but to tell you how long it's been since the last time. Seriously, it's a great item. That thing got carried around almost as much as the baby did.

[celticmom]

I think that the parts about moms not caring about their babies if they deliver one particular way or other is baloney, but as a former OB nurse (including working as a travelling OB nurse all over the USA) and having trained as a nurse midwife I do have to say that the book is quite accurate. Lying to pregnant women to manipulate them into agreeing with what the doctor wants to do to suit his or her personal preferences or agenda is more common that you imagine. Yes, I also have personally witnessed providers at dozens of hospitals 'lying through their teeth' to pregnant women during labor and delivery, and believe me the way those providers present themselves to those women talking all nice and respectfully is NOT how they talk about them at the nurse's station. I have also personally witnessed numerous providers making decisions about managing a particular woman's labor and delivery according to the provider's personal schedule, agenda, or vacation plans, none of which was disclosed to the laboring woman, believe me!

 

I actually got out of the profession altogether because I couldn't stand to be a part of the mismanagement and lying and manipulation anymore. I've seen women nearly die many times because of the provider's stupid choices or lack of interest in what was actually going on with a given woman and her baby. I would really love to see some kind of enforceable national standards of care with full transparency in obstetrics, and providers who refuse to actually provide OB care to standard need to be removed from the profession. That will never happen, it is too big a racket for the providers who are making too much money, and women in the US are too brain-washed into thinking that the doctor has actually has their best interests at heart. They don't.

 

My experience has been that it is extremely rare to find a provider who is actually interested in providing safe, honest OB care to women. So if you feel you have found such a creature, good for you. I'm sure there are one or two out there.......but I doubt there are more than that.

 

We really need a like button. This sums up perfectly why I will never trust a doctor especially an ob again.

[FO4UR]

I had the perfect birthing options with babies #2 & #3. It was a practice that has several OB/GYNs who specialize in high-risk pregnancies and several CNMs who specialize in natural childbirth. I delivered in a hospital, in a wing that was set up as a birthing center. The nursing staff was well trained to accommodate the mother's wishes.

 

 

I moved across the country and am preggo with #4...and there is NOTHING like that here. If I want a midwife, it has to be a homebirth. If I want a hospital birth, I cannot have a midwife.:glare: I have already heard enough about the local hospitals (and by local I mean 45min-hour away) that I'm understanding I will need to go in with advocating for my rights/well-being and the safety of my baby in mind.

 

 

My biggest concern about having baby #4 is being pushed into unnecessary interventions while I'm in labor. Yes, there ARE hospitals like that...

 

 

At the same time, the closest hospital is 45min-hour away and I don't want to be at home needing medical care.

[Caraway]

If anything, I thought the movie down played the current assault on natural birth.

[celticmom]

If anything, I thought the movie down played the current assault on natural birth.

 

:iagree:

[Robyn]

To me, it's a bit more complicated than that. When large regions of hospitals will not permit women to vbac, you completely deny women an option of a nonsurgical birth. How does this support the rights of women?

 

My third baby was almost born on the side of the highway because we had to travel so far for a hospital that would allow me to VBAC. Even though I had a successful VBAC with my second baby, the four local (and not so local) hospitals had VBAC bans.

[JoLuRu]

I talked to DH about this thread in bed last night. I told him about the "this is the protocol" comment and he said what I was thinking: "You're a person, not a protocol."

 

With my first delivery, protocol was pushed over my carefully decided wishes and I believe that I avoided an unnecessary C-section only because my mom was there to say no, you're doing it for your convenience and not medical reasons. I would never have considered that. As soon as the doctor says "it's in your baby's best interest" it's very hard for a mother to say no, even if it really isn't the baby's best interest. (He told me my baby was getting "tired" from the long labor. My mom said that's BS!

[Supertechmom]

Drs lie point blank to your face and hospitals have procedures that they initiate just because...... That is what they do. With my last, I got to see a resident when I went in for an IV for dehydration ( puking for 9 months does that. Ivs had been a normal course for that pregnancy). I was 37 weeks and 3 cms ( had been dilated for 3, 4 weeks? 4 th baby ) The resident marched in said they would start pit and I would have a baby in about an hour and left. Never looked at me or examined me. I laughed at the nurse and said she had better ignore every single order she just gave because I would not be doing any of that and i would go home once my IV had finished. They brought in the chief dr who calmly told me I was in preeclampsia and it was urgent that we get the baby out ASAP. I asked her where were the labs?? Since I had not been there long enough to have lab results, my BP was almost my normal level non pregnant, the baby was good and strong, and I was there for dehydration which my labs would support that conclusion and I named off which values. I then proceeded to tell her that if anybody had asked, they would have discovered that I have bad reaction to pit, can't do an epidural because of severe issues and have bad reactions to the only other pain med they allow, that I would have a natural child birth. She was stunned. I told her to come back in 30 more mins with the labs in her hand and we would discuss her conclusion that I was in preeclampsia. instead, I was checked (for the first freaking time) and had progressed another cm or two, so I agreed to wait around and see if contractions started. She turned out to be nice dr but I would have had a different outcome had I simply done as told.

 

They lie. And people who don't know medical info and jargon, get taken advantage of.

[ktgrok]

Okay, I just have to say, the Itzbeen timer is awesome! I got one with my newborn two years ago and being able to look at it and figure out what my baby needed immediately when I was half asleep and wandering around in a daze...it was wonderful. It's not to time when to feed/sleep/medicate, but to tell you how long it's been since the last time. Seriously, it's a great item. That thing got carried around almost as much as the baby did.

 

Lol, I still don't get it. I just stick my finger in the diaper...if it is wet/dirty I change it, no matter how long it has been. If the baby is rooting and fussing I offer the breast, again, no matter how long it has been. I figure the baby knows what it wants, even without a timer, lol.

[justLisa]

Lol, I still don't get it. I just stick my finger in the diaper...if it is wet/dirty I change it, no matter how long it has been. If the baby is rooting and fussing I offer the breast, again, no matter how long it has been. I figure the baby knows what it wants, even without a timer, lol.

 

 

Uh, yeah. A timer? I had never heard of it. I am trying to not laugh out loud about the idea.

[WishboneDawn]

Drs lie point blank to your face and hospitals have procedures that they initiate just because...... That is what they do. With my last, I got to see a resident when I went in for an IV for dehydration ( puking for 9 months does that. Ivs had been a normal course for that pregnancy). I was 37 weeks and 3 cms ( had been dilated for 3, 4 weeks? 4 th baby ) The resident marched in said they would start pit and I would have a baby in about an hour and left. Never looked at me or examined me. I laughed at the nurse and said she had better ignore every single order she just gave because I would not be doing any of that and i would go home once my IV had finished. They brought in the chief dr who calmly told me I was in preeclampsia and it was urgent that we get the baby out ASAP. I asked her where were the labs?? Since I had not been there long enough to have lab results, my BP was almost my normal level non pregnant, the baby was good and strong, and I was there for dehydration which my labs would support that conclusion and I named off which values. I then proceeded to tell her that if anybody had asked, they would have discovered that I have bad reaction to pit, can't do an epidural because of severe issues and have bad reactions to the only other pain med they allow, that I would have a natural child birth. She was stunned. I told her to come back in 30 more mins with the labs in her hand and we would discuss her conclusion that I was in preeclampsia. instead, I was checked (for the first freaking time) and had progressed another cm or two, so I agreed to wait around and see if contractions started. She turned out to be nice dr but I would have had a different outcome had I simply done as told.

 

They lie. And people who don't know medical info and jargon, get taken advantage of.

 

This is what bothers me about the rhetoric surrounding this issue.

 

Many doctors don't lie. Many hospitals, like the ones I went to, have procedures that involve asking what the mother's birth plan is so they can respect that. No amount of anecdotes about horrible experiences is going to eliminate the fact that hospital births can be wonderful, warm experiences.

 

Is the issue giving women the freedom and information they need to make the choices they need to or just framing hospitals as a horrid and unnatural place to haves babies? Because the second works against the first and very likely does more harm then good.

[ktgrok]

This is what bothers me about the rhetoric surrounding this issue.

 

Many doctors don't lie. Many hospitals, like the ones I went to, have procedures that involve asking what the mother's birth plan is so they can respect that. No amount of anecdotes about horrible experiences is going to eliminate the fact that hospital births can be wonderful, warm experiences.

 

Is the issue giving women the freedom and information they need to make the choices they need to or just framing hospitals as a horrid and unnatural place to haves babies? Because the second works against the first and very likely does more harm then good.

 

Unfortunately, the ones that DO lie, manipulate, etc are the norm, not the exception. And maybe pointing that out will slow the tide and move it back towards what you experienced.

[WishboneDawn]

The interventions between mother and child begin pre-conception. They begin with a culture of separation, profit, and medicalizing birth. The interventions are present ~ assumed a benign part of our culture ~ our entire lives. They exist in literature, books, media, T.V., movies, and in medical training.

 

There is an organized agenda against natural birth. And an organized agenda against natural minded mothering *after* birth. Ever walk into a Babies R Us? 90% of the products put distance between parents and baby.

 

I've helped and supported women during pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. I've done this in 2 states, across the span of 17 years. I've had 3 of my own kids in varying circumstances. Being born IS business, and pushing medicalization of birth is standard. It's on a continuum depending on geography, staff, shift, specific staff, but I'd say EVERYONE is on that continuum, having been born and indoctrinated into a culture in which pregnancy, birth and child rearing has garnered a price tag.

 

I really hate that term. My last one was, I think, "natural". It was a vaginal birth with no epidural. I was also close to bleeding to death which, considering how truly dangerous childbirth can be for humans, would also have been completely natural.

 

Natural is a neutral term and there's no inherent virtue or good in it.

 

Don't take this rant as condemning midwives or vaginal births or whatever. I just have growing issues with the way we use the term natural these days.

[WishboneDawn]

Unfortunately, the ones that DO lie, manipulate, etc are the norm, not the exception. And maybe pointing that out will slow the tide and move it back towards what you experienced.

 

I live in Canada so it may well be different but barring some statistical evidence I'm not going to accept that. I also won't accept that calling the majority of medical professionals involved in birth liars is particularly helpful when trying to change the system.

[JoLuRu]

I live in Canada so it may well be different but barring some statistical evidence I'm not going to accept that. I also won't accept that calling the majority of medical professionals involved in birth liars is particularly helpful when trying to change the system.

 

The medical system *is* different in Canada. Malpractice is different, C-section rates are different, the way medical care is delivered is different.

 

I haven't had a baby in Canada, but I've had babies at several in the US, and my mom has been present at thousands more as an L&D nurse at several different hospital. The things people are pointing out - that doctors do lie to patients, and it's not an anomaly - are perhaps more US-centric.

[InterestingCase]

I first gave birth in 1990 and had my last child in 2005. All of my children were delivered at the same hospital in Oregon. I am continually surprised by the stories that I hear from women who give birth in the hospital. I am sorry that anyone has to feel this way. I think your OB has an impact on this because I have a friend who had a baby in the same hospital that I did but was given some high level drugs to induce labor and had a C-section, even through the suspected crisis had passed by the time she was prepped.

 

While things did change over the years, even in the 1990, I gave birth with minimal interventions. In my more recent births, I created a birth plan and the doctor worked with it as much as possible, always offering me choices based upon my risk-factors.

 

I also benefitted from having my mother and/or my sister (labor and delivery and NICU nurse for many years) with me during delivery. My mother was my advocate and my sister let me know that if something needed to be done for the safety of the baby, she would let me know immediately.

[amy g.]

One of the most influential people in my life is a midwife. I remember being a child, and my dad would let me stay up late so that I could visit with her when she got finished delivering a baby in the middle of the night.

 

She had a great job at a teaching hospital, but left because she could not take the lying anymore.

 

She said, that woman after woman would come in with her birth plan, and everyone would smile and agree knowing good and **** well that she would not be allowed to have a single item on her plan.

 

So, you can not accept it all you want, but here it is just reality.

 

I was lucky that the nurses laughed in my face and told me the truth. At least I was able to change hospitals, and have the birth I wanted.

 

So many women are never given that choice.

[ktgrok]

I live in Canada so it may well be different but barring some statistical evidence I'm not going to accept that. I also won't accept that calling the majority of medical professionals involved in birth liars is particularly helpful when trying to change the system.

 

Ok, so how about I speak for just Florida. Our c-section rate is over 30%. In some counties it is over 50%. As there is evidence that only 10-15% of women should have c-sections (15% being high risk hospitals), half of all the c-sections done in my state are probably not needed. In Dade County there are hospitals with a 70% rate. My closest hospital has a 41% rate. It also, as I stated before, has a 30% NON medical induction rate.

 

Do you really really think doctors are being honest, and telling women that they don't need the induction or c-section, that it poses serious health risks to mom and baby, and the women are saying eh, I don't care? Or are those doctors manipulating women into what works for them, and feeling ok about it because at the end of the day most moms and babies do live?

[ktgrok]

The medical system *is* different in Canada. Malpractice is different, C-section rates are different, the way medical care is delivered is different.

 

I haven't had a baby in Canada, but I've had babies at several in the US, and my mom has been present at thousands more as an L&D nurse at several different hospital. The things people are pointing out - that doctors do lie to patients, and it's not an anomaly - are perhaps more US-centric.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with socialized medicine. There isn't a financial incentive in Canada to do the c-sections, use as many drugs as possible, etc etc.

[JoLuRu]

I think a lot of it has to do with socialized medicine. There isn't a financial incentive in Canada to do the c-sections, use as many drugs as possible, etc etc.

 

I think there is also less fear of litigation if there is a bad outcome.

[Parrothead]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I have to add this:

My father is an obstetrician. He's delivered over 5,000 babies in 30 years. While the national c-section rate is 34%, his rate is 4%. And he's never ever lost a baby due to his choices.

 

Obviously there are unnecessary c-sections being done every day, to thousands of women. And c-sections are more dangerous than natural deliveries, under most circumstances.

 

Obviously they are needed on occasion, but not nearly the amount that they are being done, by doctors who don't want to be woken in the middle of the night, and doctors who want to be home by dinner, and doctors who are afraid of being sued (and rightly so!). I attended a delivery with my dad once, where he could've ordered a c-section. Instead, he and I both stayed at the hospital all night, sleeping in chairs, checking on the mother every so often, encouraging her that she could do it. And she did.

 

When I was pregnant with twins, I went to a doctor who said I *would* have a c-section. I said goodbye and walked out the door. Next pregnancy, I went to a different doctor who said I absolutely could NOT deliver at home. I did.

 

There are good doctors and midwives like my dad out there... ones who will not push c-sections or epidurals on you. They're just harder and harder to find.

That is exactly what my doctor told me. My water broke about 7am. Nothing happened for a few hours after that. My doc suggested a Pit line so we could all be done by dinner. I, not knowing better, didn't want to be there all day and night tied to an IV (group B strep) and the monitors so I said okay. Dd was born less than 5 hours later.

[Momof3littles]

Ok, so how about I speak for just Florida. Our c-section rate is over 30%. In some counties it is over 50%. As there is evidence that only 10-15% of women should have c-sections (15% being high risk hospitals), half of all the c-sections done in my state are probably not needed. In Dade County there are hospitals with a 70% rate. My closest hospital has a 41% rate. It also, as I stated before, has a 30% NON medical induction rate.

 

Do you really really think doctors are being honest, and telling women that they don't need the induction or c-section, that it poses serious health risks to mom and baby, and the women are saying eh, I don't care? Or are those doctors manipulating women into what works for them, and feeling ok about it because at the end of the day most moms and babies do live?

 

I agree. Yes, there are necessary and life saving c/s. They are a critical part of the labor and delivery medical toolkit. But most health organizations recognize c/s are being overused. Dramatically overused. Yet no woman is ever told hers wasn't necessary. There is always a justification..."thank goodness we did it, the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck!" (a very common and normal thing. Yes sometimes it can be a bad situation, but usually it is just unloop and proceed as normal when the baby is born vaginally with the cord around their neck). Any number of justifications for the c/s are put forth, which may or may not be true.

 

I'm not interested in second guessing any individual woman's need for a c/s and whether it was truly necessary...I don't mean to suggest that I am interested in that type of litmus test. I just think that looking at the larger trend, and the acknowledgement by groups like WHO that the c/s rate is unjustifiably high, there is clearly a problem. Yet no woman is ever told her individual c/s probably wasn't necessary. They always put forth some crisis, some reason, some justification, and no one ever says, eh, we were wrong, things probably would have been just fine. So you have tons of women who walk around convinced their babies would have died without that c/s. Maybe that's why it is tolerated by most women, or why they don't question their individual care providers and hospitals more. There absolutely are cases where that is true, and thank goodness c/s exist as an option. But if you look at the statistics, there are clearly a whole lot of cases where that just isn't true. Again, I'm just talking about the trend...I'm not interested in picking apart whether any one individual's c/s was truly necessary or potentially life-saving, because certainly there are cases where they are. And even looking back, I'm sure most women who went through one do feel their c/s was a "necessary" and life-saving one, due to what they are told after the fact about why it was needed. In many cases, it would be difficult to tease out on one's own just going by what the OB says.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Momof3littles

[StaceyinLA]

the rate of c-sections is near 60%, yes SIXTY PERCENT, in some hospitals (and look it up because I found the rankings on the internet), I believe that much of what is stated in the movie is true. In the hospitals in our area, women start coming in at 4 a.m. for inductions, and they come in appx every 10-15 minutes until mid-morning. The goal? To have them ready for delivery by the time the doctor's normal day is finished so they can be "delivered" before he goes home.

 

My nephew is an anesthesiologist locally. It is absolutely a true scenario I am talking about. He has had confrontations with several obs because of it.

 

I think it is a sin and a shame for birth to be reduced to this.

 

Are interventions necessary? Sure they are, sometimes. Is induction necessary? Sure, sometimes. But as a regular occurrence? Absolutely not! I think it has become ridiculous.

[ktgrok]

the rate of c-sections is near 60%, yes SIXTY PERCENT, in some hospitals (and look it up because I found the rankings on the internet), I believe that much of what is stated in the movie is true. In the hospitals in our area, women start coming in at 4 a.m. for inductions, and they come in appx every 10-15 minutes until mid-morning. The goal? To have them ready for delivery by the time the doctor's normal day is finished so they can be "delivered" before he goes home.

 

My nephew is an anesthesiologist locally. It is absolutely a true scenario I am talking about. He has had confrontations with several obs because of it.

 

I think it is a sin and a shame for birth to be reduced to this.

 

Are interventions necessary? Sure they are, sometimes. Is induction necessary? Sure, sometimes. But as a regular occurrence? Absolutely not! I think it has become ridiculous.

 

Kendall Hospital, in Miami-Dade hospital, has a c-section rate of 70.1%. It is sick.

[ocelotmom]

With my first my water broke at 38 weeks, but no labor. It was a Saturday, so when we went to the hospital at 3am I saw whatever dr was on call. As soon as I walked in the door I was hooked up to monitors & the pit drip even though I said I didn't want either. The nurses and then doctor told me that if I didn't do as I was told I would be asked to leave the hospital, or they would mark my file as AMA and my insurance would not pay.

 

I am 98% sure this violates the Emergency Transport and Active Labor Act and probably other laws related to patient autonomy. The hospital cannot just kick out a patient in active labor (the question of the definition of active labor is the 2% I'm unsure about). You have the right to refuse treatment, short of a court order. Leaving AMA means you CHOOSE to leave against medical advice, not that the hospital kicks you out for not doing what they want, and the fact that they'd consider it leaving AMA (as opposed to being discharged because you weren't in labor) implies that you'd be covered by EMTALA.

 

I'm sorry you were treated that way.

 

:iagree: In my experience working with birthing women, how they are treated has a HUGE impact on how they feel about themselves and their babies. I have had fully informed, supported moms rave positively about their natural-births-turned-c-section. Knowing that it was necessary and choosing it because it was makes a HUGE difference. I have had moms who on paper had the birth they wanted (unmedicated and vaginal), but they were depressed or traumatized because they were belittled and harassed throughout the process.

I totally agree with this. My experience is that women who felt respected and involved in the decision-making process are generally ok with their birth experiences, even if things don't go as they intended.

 

The OP's post is a good example of that, too.

 

Most doctors aren't out to torture you. But they do want you safe. The sooner you are OUT of labor and delivered, the less risk of infection and fetal distress. Hence the Pit. If ANYTHING isn't textbook, they are more comfortable finishing it NOW with a section. They see safe as "In my control". You on a table, medicated, monitored, with predictable outcomes is "better" when any variable is "wonky" to them. That's just how hospitals work.

 

Rephrase: The faster you're in and out, the lower the liability for them. It is NOT safer for mom and baby to get interventions during normal labor. You cannot reasonably argue that a normal vaginal birth is a higher infection risk than an epidural or c-section. However, current medical law tends to favor intervention, so the OB is "safer" intervening than not, regardless of whether it is actually safer for the mom and baby.

 

I'm not trying to be down on OBs here. I'd hate to be an OB caught between a belief in the birth process (and I definitely know OBs like that!) and our litigious society.

 

We aren't good at sitting on our hands watching you scream (and it's the rare woman who isn't a mess when it comes to natural childbirth). If you want someone to just watch you from a distance, you need a birthcenter or a midwife or a homebirth. Different strokes. But I get annoyed at getting down on doctors and nurses for doing what they are trained to DO. We are trained to ACT.

This is ridiculous. There are plenty of women who cannot or choose not to give birth at home for whatever reason (financial, health-related, lack of good environment, lack of availability of midwife/birth center care, or any number of other reasons). They still deserve to be treated respectfully.

 

I am a nurse. I was not trained to push epidurals and pitocin on patients desiring a natural birth.

 

That said, if someone was literally *screaming* (not just being noisy), could not be coached out of it, and it wasn't because the baby was crowning or something, I'd offer pain medication unless they had specifically requested that it not be offered. Screaming (as opposed to lower pitched moaning or yelling) tends to indicate panic and fighting against

the body, so some sort of intervention is appropriate. Coaching and support is generally safer for mom and baby and more respectful of a natural birthing mother's intentions. Pain medication is quicker and easier, and, as a nurse, I can totally understand that quick and easy is sometimes what is necessary from the nurse's perspective in order to give adequate attention to all patients and handle the workload. (I run into this in my work, too - I *want* to sit with the anxious dying patient all day, but I have 25 others I'm responsible for as well.)

 

However, I disagree that women experiencing normal natural labor, with reasonable freedom of movement and some level of education and support, are likely to be screaming.

 

(Not an L&D nurse, but have been at numerous births as a doula as well as my own births (natural, no screaming involved), so I'm not talking from total inexperience in the field)

 

But yes- from the PP with a nurse mother- you DO need a patient advocate, because there are often other alternatives your doctor won't give you, because it isn't what they "typically" do, that are possibilities. You gotta educate yourself first, before going in. And you have to educate your doctor on your wants and needs before heading to the floor and throwing a fit to your nurse LOL. You don't want an IV? Great. Talk to your doctor, get that Saline Lock in your order, and I'll do it. The orders come pre-written from the doctor, letting us know in the 11th hour that guess what, you don't want monitored, won't really help any of us, because now we are scrambling to get new orders instead of taking care of you. We want to do what you want, but we need to KNOW what you want at get it approved so we can actually DO it. These things can be done in advance, talk about your birthplan in the last weeks of your pregnancy! LOL (Just a vent!)

 

I totally agree with this. The more you discuss with your provider beforehand, the less you'll have to self-advocate during labor, when it may be difficult. You also may get pre-warning that your provider is not going to be supportive of your desires.

 

It's also very hard to judge how attached someone is to the natural birth thing if you're meeting them for the first time while they're in labor.

[beaners]

I have delivered at three different hospitals, and am delivering at a fourth (hopefully) within a month. That will be 4 hospitals in 3 states. I have received prenatal care from 5 providers in 4 states. I haven't seen the movie. I will emphatically state that there are many doctors in many different parts of the US who are very focused on interventions. I will also state that my experiences are my own. I'm not sure how they match up to statistics, and I'm certain many others have had lovely experiences.

 

I'm not thrilled with the practice I'm seeing right now, but the clock's just about run out on changing that. At my last visit, the doctor actually tried to threaten me that I wouldn't be able to get "my epidural" with a piece of jewelry in. I haven't had an epidural with any of my previous births. It is so assumed that everyone gets an epidural, that she was trying to use it as leverage. A midwife there also suggested that my baby was going to be stillborn to help encourage me to have tests repeated that the previous practice hadn't yet forwarded.

 

With my second baby, I was offered an induction a week before my due date. The charming OB also laughed unpleasantly at me and told me I was afraid of giving birth again. Of the several other women I know who have used that practice, all of them either were induced or had a c-section. I did end up having an induction at 10 days after my due date.

 

At every single hospital I have had to repeatedly decline epidurals and pitocin for normally progressing labors. I have seen deceit and manipulation from people in every position I've been in contact with, both before and during labor and during my postpartum hospital stays. I believe that the majority of those people thought they were acting in the best interests of my baby or me, but that doesn't mean they were right or had the right to act as they did. It also doesn't mean that everyone involved in this field is like that. It just means I've seen examples across the board.

 

I don't recall actual screaming, but I'm certain there was some loud moaning and grunting with each labor. I did have a nurse tell me I had an amazing amount of self-control after delivering my third baby. :confused: Maybe she was expecting a louder performance than I offered? I've always wondered what she meant by that comment.

[Sunshine Mom]

I have a friend who is a midwife. She has quite the horror stories. She really likes that movie.

[LizzyBee]

I still remember my neighbor 16 years ago telling me she was so thankful that she didn't have to give birth flat on her back with her feet in stirrups. I told her she was misinformed, as I'd had two hospital births and never saw any stirrups and wasn't flat on my back. When she had her second, we took her oldest to see her in the birth center, and I didn't say it out loud, but I was so thankful I didn't have to give birth there! A week later, she could barely walk, and I asked if she was still using icepacks or had she run out of them. The birth center didn't give her any. The icepacks the hospital gave me helped reduce my swelling so that I wasn't sore very long after birth and they were so soothing.

 

I had my third in a different hospital in a different state, but I was very impressed with how hard my doctor tried to prevent a C-section, including infusing fluid into my uterus to try to shift dd's position and reverse whatever was causing her distress. The OR staff was giving him grief because he was holding a room for me but trying not to use it, but he didn't sway. But when dd's heart rate dropped to 40, he was in the room before the nurse even called him (obviously watching a monitor instead of sleeping; it was 4:30 am), and we went to the OR.

Edited July 11, 2012 by LizzyBee

[ChristusG]

I've had three hospital births and they were just fine. I'm sure that movie (though I have not seen it) takes the most extreme cases to make their point (as most documentaries will do).

 

My first two babies were induced due to low fluid. My third came on her own, even after I was asking for her to be induced and they weren't agreeing.

[celticmom]

Unfortunately, the ones that DO lie, manipulate, etc are the norm, not the exception. And maybe pointing that out will slow the tide and move it back towards what you experienced.

 

:iagree:

[JoLuRu]

Lizzy, I had stirrups for all three births, but my head was elevated so I wasn't flat on my back. For the last baby, I was squatting until the last minute and then pushed to lay down while they caught the baby, who was coming fast - they were yelling to stop pushing, as though I had any control over it. My pain was very manageable until I laid down and put my feet up! That truly was the worst position for the pain!

[VeganCupcake]

Watching an unmedicated birth can make people uncomfortable if they aren't used to it. But making noise doesn't always mean a woman is out of control or needs pharmaceutical pain relief. I roared through my DD's birth and "aaaahhhed" through my DS'. I found the "aaaaahhhing" very helpful and did not mean at all that I was out of control or "a mess". I was most definitely not a mess--I was just working hard at birthing a baby.

[JoLuRu]

Vegan Cupcake - DH said I was "getting in touch with my inner moose" - moaning and grunting. That was very helpful!

[Soror]

Watching an unmedicated birth can make people uncomfortable if they aren't used to it. But making noise doesn't always mean a woman is out of control or needs pharmaceutical pain relief. I roared through my DD's birth and "aaaahhhed" through my DS'. I found the "aaaaahhhing" very helpful and did not mean at all that I was out of control or "a mess". I was most definitely not a mess--I was just working hard at birthing a baby.

:iagree:

It's called verbalizing and entirely normal. If it bothers people they shouldn't work with birthing women.

 

AND even if a women was screaming (which wouldn't be terribly productive but regardless) that is her choice.

[Bluegoat]

I've had three c-sections. The first two, in hindsight, were probably unnecessary and caused by the hospital staff. And it was a nice hospital with good nurses and my doctor was good and respectful. But they did not do simple things that might have made a difference, they had me labouring on my back with pit and an epidural for hours, with no attempt to get me to move around of anything. (In both cases they told me the baby was in distress, and then afterwards said they'd been mistaken.)

 

The whole situation seemed a bit off to me afterward, and the realization came from, of all things, my experience with livestock. I knew that no vet would treat a labouring animal the way I had been treated, and so I got really into learning about human birth and even trained as a doula. So in my third pregnancy I had a pretty clear idea of how I wanted to do things.

 

Unfortunately there were no midwives available, and I was in a different hospital than before which was smaller. I had a GP who seemed nice, but I was overseen as well by an OB who would be on call for the birth since I was a VBAC. She was constantly telling me that I had a small pelvis, the baby was big, and so on, and I probably wouldn't be successful, and kept saying I had sections before because of too small a pelivis, which had nothing to do with it.

 

I had told them both I wanted no hep-lock, which I had to sign a waiver for, and no continuous monitoring which they didn't say anything about.

 

When I went in in labour the OB and the GP told me that the OB was leaving and another OB would oversee me and he was demanding a hep-lock and internal monitoring, and if I didn't agree they would send me to the big hospital, an hour strapped to a gurney ina n ambulance. They both yelled at me (and expected me to converse while I had contractions!), they told me I had a 10% chance of dying (which I knew was false) and basically tried to scare and manipulate me into doing what they wanted.

 

It is one of the most horrible experiences I have had, and in the end I told them just to do the section.

 

I knew of a few other people who birthed there. In one case a women labouring was pushing in a squatting position and the OB (supposedly an expert, they say, midwives seem to manage to do this easily enough) told her she only knew how to deliver in a prone position. My cousin was told two weeks before her birth that she couldn't VBAC because the ultrasound said her baby was big and a pelvic exam said her hips were too small (which is NOT a medically legitimate diagnosis.)

 

I do know people who were fine with their hospital births, but in most cases they had text-book labours. And even then I often find when I talk to them that they were not given good information by the staff.

[Xuzi]

This is about so much more than just having a healthy baby at the end. This is about dignity of self. When someone cuts into your body, when somebody makes a decision that has the potential to cause YOU injury (NOT them), and they don't take the time that they COULD, in many cases, reasonably take to make you understand WHY they believe it's necessary, or when they don't even have a reason why you, specifically need to have such-and-such done to your person but do it anyway, it can create a HUGE sense of violation. Especially when you find out that the "reasons" you were given for what they did were either exaggerations, or just out-right lies to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. And it's made even worse when what they did created long lasting physical consequences that YOU, not THEY, have to deal with after you leave that hospital.

 

There may still be a healthy baby in your arms when it's all over, but the emotional scarring can take a long time to heal.

[ktgrok]

I still remember my neighbor 16 years ago telling me she was so thankful that she didn't have to give birth flat on her back with her feet in stirrups. I told her she was misinformed, as I'd had two hospital births and never saw any stirrups and wasn't flat on my back. When she had her second, we took her oldest to see her in the birth center, and I didn't say it out loud, but I was so thankful I didn't have to give birth there! A week later, she could barely walk, and I asked if she was still using icepacks or had she run out of them. The birth center didn't give her any. The icepacks the hospital gave me helped reduce my swelling so that I wasn't sore very long after birth and they were so soothing.

 

I had my third in a different hospital in a different state, but I was very impressed with how hard my doctor tried to prevent a C-section, including infusing fluid into my uterus to try to shift dd's position and reverse whatever was causing her distress. The OR staff was giving him grief because he was holding a room for me but trying not to use it, but he didn't sway. But when dd's heart rate dropped to 40, he was in the room before the nurse even called him (obviously watching a monitor instead of sleeping; it was 4:30 am), and we went to the OR.

 

Depends on the doctor/hospital. I've never been to a hospital birth where the mom wasn't on her back. And some had the woman in stirrups, some had a nurse and another helper hold the mom's legs back (also a weird thing!).

[ocelotmom]

This is about so much more than just having a healthy baby at the end. This is about dignity of self. When someone cuts into your body, when somebody makes a decision that has the potential to cause YOU injury (NOT them), and they don't take the time that they COULD, in many cases, reasonably take to make you understand WHY they believe it's necessary, or when they don't even have a reason why you, specifically need to have such-and-such done to your person but do it anyway, it can create a HUGE sense of violation. Especially when you find out that the "reasons" you were given for what they did were either exaggerations, or just out-right lies to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. And it's made even worse when what they did created long lasting physical consequences that YOU, not THEY, have to deal with after you leave that hospital.

 

There may still be a healthy baby in your arms when it's all over, but the emotional scarring can take a long time to heal.

:iagree:

 

Saying a healthy baby is all that matters is saying that the mother's physical and emotional health don't matter.

 

It also doesn't take into account that these interventions can harm babies, too. Yes, they can be lifesaving when needed. Doesn't mean that they're without risk when the doc doesn't want to be late to their dinner date.

[ktgrok]

This is about so much more than just having a healthy baby at the end. This is about dignity of self. When someone cuts into your body, when somebody makes a decision that has the potential to cause YOU injury (NOT them), and they don't take the time that they COULD, in many cases, reasonably take to make you understand WHY they believe it's necessary, or when they don't even have a reason why you, specifically need to have such-and-such done to your person but do it anyway, it can create a HUGE sense of violation. Especially when you find out that the "reasons" you were given for what they did were either exaggerations, or just out-right lies to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. And it's made even worse when what they did created long lasting physical consequences that YOU, not THEY, have to deal with after you leave that hospital.

 

There may still be a healthy baby in your arms when it's all over, but the emotional scarring can take a long time to heal.

 

Amen. I haven't brought up my own story in this thread, but my c-section was without cause. I of course didn't know that at first. I thought it was an "emergency" c-section, and was told he was stuck and would never have come out any other way. I only consented because his heart rate had dropped. No one told me it went back up and was totally normal before surgery. Also, I was told I "wasn't progressing", but no one checked me again before surgery. Basically, when his heart rate dropped they called in the doctor. He had been at dinner (he even talked to the staff about what wine he had as he was sewing me up!). When he got there he called from the OR demanding to know why I wasn't there yet. I guess "heart rate is back to normal, and mom says she feels pushy" wasn't a good enough answer, so without saying any of that they just took me to be cut open. The doctor got called in for surgery (a nurse midwife would have caught if it had been a vaginal birth), and by golly he wasn't leaving without doing the surgery.

 

I got my medical records about 6 months or so later. I saw that his heart rate was fine. I saw that instead, what they put as the "reason" for my surgery was that he was too big for my pelvis (CPD). I KNOW I had felt like pushing, but like I said, no one checked me. 10 years later I had my daughter. When I started pushing with her I realized WOW, this was exactly what I felt with my son! The bastards never let me even try to push him out! Oh, and after pushing her out in less than an hour, she was 9lbs. My son, the "too big" baby was only 7lbs 13 oz.

 

So yeah, doctors do what they want....and in my case it led to a surgery I probably didn't need, months of pain, lots of emotional trauma, and all for what? Because he didn't want to wait to see what would happen. Bah.