The Business of Being Born... are they for real?

[ktgrok]

I've had three c-sections. The first two, in hindsight, were probably unnecessary and caused by the hospital staff. And it was a nice hospital with good nurses and my doctor was good and respectful. But they did not do simple things that might have made a difference, they had me labouring on my back with pit and an epidural for hours, with no attempt to get me to move around of anything. (In both cases they told me the baby was in distress, and then afterwards said they'd been mistaken.)

 

The whole situation seemed a bit off to me afterward, and the realization came from, of all things, my experience with livestock. I knew that no vet would treat a labouring animal the way I had been treated, and so I got really into learning about human birth and even trained as a doula. So in my third pregnancy I had a pretty clear idea of how I wanted to do things.

 

Unfortunately there were no midwives available, and I was in a different hospital than before which was smaller. I had a GP who seemed nice, but I was overseen as well by an OB who would be on call for the birth since I was a VBAC. She was constantly telling me that I had a small pelvis, the baby was big, and so on, and I probably wouldn't be successful, and kept saying I had sections before because of too small a pelivis, which had nothing to do with it.

 

I had told them both I wanted no hep-lock, which I had to sign a waiver for, and no continuous monitoring which they didn't say anything about.

 

When I went in in labour the OB and the GP told me that the OB was leaving and another OB would oversee me and he was demanding a hep-lock and internal monitoring, and if I didn't agree they would send me to the big hospital, an hour strapped to a gurney ina n ambulance. They both yelled at me (and expected me to converse while I had contractions!), they told me I had a 10% chance of dying (which I knew was false) and basically tried to scare and manipulate me into doing what they wanted.

 

It is one of the most horrible experiences I have had, and in the end I told them just to do the section.

 

I knew of a few other people who birthed there. In one case a women labouring was pushing in a squatting position and the OB (supposedly an expert, they say, midwives seem to manage to do this easily enough) told her she only knew how to deliver in a prone position. My cousin was told two weeks before her birth that she couldn't VBAC because the ultrasound said her baby was big and a pelvic exam said her hips were too small (which is NOT a medically legitimate diagnosis.)

 

I do know people who were fine with their hospital births, but in most cases they had text-book labours. And even then I often find when I talk to them that they were not given good information by the staff.

 

Just wanted to offer hugs. I hope you have an ICAN chapter near you...the support can be wonderful.

[Quiver0f10]

I haven't read any other replies, but in my instance I had a C section with my 9th after being persuaded to an induction I didn't want and which didn't work.

 

When I got pregnant with my 10th I lived in a state that banned VBAC's. The doctor I went to was hostile to the idea of a vbac at all, but finally said he would "allow" me to try but only if I did xyz. Well xyz would of never worked for me. I had been through pregnancy 9 other times and I knew that. So I choose a home birth and had a wonderful, uncomplicated vbac.

 

I am not against C sections nor repeat C sections, if they are medically needed. Or wanted. But to be forced to have one due to the doctor and the hospital's worry over liability was not happening.

 

If we are blessed again we plan to have another home birth, Lord willing.

[kubiac]

As a nurse (who hasn't worked the OB floor for 30 years, but has worked it) and a patient who has had three vaginal births, the last one pain-med free.... I can tell you that 99 percent of patients ARE on Pit. That many of these patients do have c sections. That many doctors are so afraid of being sued that they like to take the most predictable route, which is a c section to ensure everyone's safety.

 

Most doctors aren't out to torture you. But they do want you safe. The sooner you are OUT of labor and delivered, the less risk of infection and fetal distress. Hence the Pit. If ANYTHING isn't textbook, they are more comfortable finishing it NOW with a section. They see safe as "In my control". You on a table, medicated, monitored, with predictable outcomes is "better" when any variable is "wonky" to them. That's just how hospitals work. They are there to fix people and solve problems. If you don't think you have a problem needing fixing, well, it isn't really the place for you. Doctors and OB nurses aren't really trained to do a normal, intervention free delivery. We have protocols, and training to help you with the risky scary stuff. We are good at at. We aren't good at sitting on our hands watching you scream (and it's the rare woman who isn't a mess when it comes to natural childbirth). If you want someone to just watch you from a distance, you need a birthcenter or a midwife or a homebirth. Different strokes. But I get annoyed at getting down on doctors and nurses for doing what they are trained to DO. We are trained to ACT.

 

But yes- from the PP with a nurse mother- you DO need a patient advocate, because there are often other alternatives your doctor won't give you, because it isn't what they "typically" do, that are possibilities. You gotta educate yourself first, before going in. And you have to educate your doctor on your wants and needs before heading to the floor and throwing a fit to your nurse LOL. You don't want an IV? Great. Talk to your doctor, get that Saline Lock in your order, and I'll do it. The orders come pre-written from the doctor, letting us know in the 11th hour that guess what, you don't want monitored, won't really help any of us, because now we are scrambling to get new orders instead of taking care of you. We want to do what you want, but we need to KNOW what you want at get it approved so we can actually DO it. These things can be done in advance, talk about your birthplan in the last weeks of your pregnancy! LOL (Just a vent!)

 

Ok..... I think I am off the original topic..... off the soapbox....

 

Cool post. Thanks BugsMama.

 

FWIW, I think The Business of Being Born isn't really the best information on this topic. Another piece of material to look at is the book Pushed by Jennifer Block. I found it evidence-based and well-sourced as well as rich in well-reported anecdotal experience.

Edited July 10, 2012 by kubiac

[Bluegoat]

Just wanted to offer hugs. I hope you have an ICAN chapter near you...the support can be wonderful.

 

THanks.:001_smile: I considered making a complaint to the college og physicians and surgeons, and I probably should have. I haven't considered a support group at all.

 

One thing I'd say now that I've read all the replies - I'm in Canada, and while I don't think things are as bad as in the US, I don't think they are a lot better. They have recently tried to bring midwifery into the medical system here, and it has had the result of making a midwife unavailable to almost anyone in our province and they drove half the midwives left out of work by giving them working conditions they couldn't accept. And the government has no plan to expand service.

 

I'm not anti-doctor either, I come from a medical family. But I was taught as a child that doctors aren't gods, and that I'm the employer in the health care relationship and I have the responsibility for my health. I think the North American attitude to maternity care is systematically broken, and part of that is related to larger problems in institutional healthcare and part seems to be some particular issue with maternity care. Even with a good, conscientious doctor it is really hard to get the system to work for you.

[Dory]

Depends on the doctor/hospital. I've never been to a hospital birth where the mom wasn't on her back. And some had the woman in stirrups, some had a nurse and another helper hold the mom's legs back (also a weird thing!).

 

I wasn't on my back until the baby was crowning with either of my last two. I moved and rolled and sat up and paced and did whatever I wanted. I was lucky to have my mom coach me through it though. Our hospital up here also doesn't use stirrups anymore. They have a section of the bed that pops out of the way so that the doctor can get in there to catch the baby easier if necessary. I also never had anyone holding my legs back, but perhaps it's because they knew that I would deck them if they did.:D

[LittleIzumi]

I don't buy into doctors inducing early because 'the baby is too big' (especially since, the last I heard, they can't actually TELL how big a baby is - not to mention how would they know whether or not the woman could deliver it naturally?)

 

I know many moms who were told they needed an induction or c/s for a large baby. They were given an ultrasound, told a large weight, and that was it. The docs never mentioned that u/s weights in late pregnancy can be off by up to a pound either way, and some of them who had the induction or c/s ended up with babies well under 8lbs--not anywhere close to the "large" baby they were induced for.

 

Ah. Well everything has a "group". Doesn't it?

 

It would be nice if this group were just a fringe group instead of the main OB group in the country. It's like the AAP being just "a group" with regards to pediatric issues.

 

I think there is also less fear of litigation if there is a bad outcome.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: What I've read supports that a lot. It's much harder and less lucrative to sue for this sort of thing in Canada.

 

When she had her second, we took her oldest to see her in the birth center, and I didn't say it out loud, but I was so thankful I didn't have to give birth there! A week later, she could barely walk, and I asked if she was still using icepacks or had she run out of them. The birth center didn't give her any. The icepacks the hospital gave me helped reduce my swelling so that I wasn't sore very long after birth and they were so soothing.

 

Well that stinks. I had ice packs and an herbal mix the midwife whipped up and all sorts of great things promoting comfort & healing after my homebirth.

 

Depends on the doctor/hospital. I've never been to a hospital birth where the mom wasn't on her back.

 

I wasn't at my second birth, but that wasn't exactly standard procedure at that hospital.

[Quiver0f10]

I first gave birth in rural KY and now live in a progressive west coast city - the difference in the entire birthing experience is drastic. In KY, I had a very kind and gentle doctor who was used to women wanting all the intervention they could get. When I told him in advance that I wanted a drug free birth he said I would be the only patient in 5 years who actually didn't want an epidural.

 

I went into labor perfectly naturally but slowly. My doctor casually said that he'd let me go for a few hours then they would induce. The only reason is that he didn't want to come back in the wee hours of the morning. When I told him that I would only be induced if it were medically necessary, he acquiesced but seemed sheepish... He wasn't used to patients knowing what they want and being willing to speak up. That is my beef - doctors and nurses taking advantage of trusting, uninformed patients to suit their own purposes, not the best interests of the patients.

 

I also had to tell the nurses to stop trying to talk me into having an epidural. I had to be forceful... they were really putting the pressure on. The documentary takes a fairly strong stance, but lets be honest, if it wasn't somewhat controversial it wouldn't get watched by many. I hope it at least helps some women make informed choices and stand up to medical staff for their own best interest.

 

 

Before I switched to a MW/homebirth, I was visiting the labor and delivery floor and told the nurses I would be bringing a birth plan. They said that mine would be the first birth plan they had ever encounted.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Quiver0f10

[ocelotmom]

Depends on the doctor/hospital. I've never been to a hospital birth where the mom wasn't on her back. And some had the woman in stirrups, some had a nurse and another helper hold the mom's legs back (also a weird thing!).

 

At the hospital where I had my first, I said I didn't want to lie on my back to push, and the OB (NOT the one I had hired - my baby came early and she was out of town) said, snarkily, "Oh, do you know a different way to push?" I didn't feel like arguing at that point, and just gave in.

 

The hospital where I had my second was a very different environment, encouraged free movement, and were supportive of birthing in whatever position the mother wanted (though my birth, on the toilet, was not anyone's ideal, including my own :lol:). However, I have noticed that, in absence of clear preference on the part of the mother, they tend to maneuver people into the lying down with legs held position.

[JoLuRu]

At the hospital where I had my first, I said I didn't want to lie on my back to push, and the OB (NOT the one I had hired - my baby came early and she was out of town) said, snarkily, "Oh, do you know a different way to push?" I didn't feel like arguing at that point, and just gave in.

 

 

My OB this time said basically the same thing. He told me that the pushing position (lying down, feet in stirrups) is for the convenience of the doctor, not the mother, but that's just the way it's done. It discouraging to hear that I wouldn't have the option of pushing however my body felt most comfortable, and I was pushed to lying down when it was clear that she was coming even though I could have given birth in my more comfortable squatting position. They just weren't comfortable catching her that way and that's what ended up being more important.

[ktgrok]

THanks.:001_smile: I considered making a complaint to the college og physicians and surgeons, and I probably should have. I haven't considered a support group at all.

 

 

 

Well...I do highly suggest it, if there is a chapter near you. (yahoo groups would be a good place to search). If only because with all your knowledge you might be able to help support moms just getting into this, with your experience and such. Plus, at least the chapter I attend, has become my tribe...my group of women that I turn to for everything. Plus, I happen to be friends with the international president, lol.

[VeganCupcake]

My OB this time said basically the same thing. He told me that the pushing position (lying down, feet in stirrups) is for the convenience of the doctor, not the mother, but that's just the way it's done. It discouraging to hear that I wouldn't have the option of pushing however my body felt most comfortable, and I was pushed to lying down when it was clear that she was coming even though I could have given birth in my more comfortable squatting position. They just weren't comfortable catching her that way and that's what ended up being more important.

 

My DD was born on the birthing stool, and my DS was born in the birth pool when I was on my hands and knees. Neither were particularly hard to catch, as far as I know--my DH caught my DS, and he's a software engineer and had never caught a baby before that. I just don't see what's so hard about catching a baby that's coming out when the mother is in some other position other than on her back. :confused:

[Firefly]

I think the movie is pretty accurate, and this is coming from someone who had two fairly positive hospital experiences with emergency C-sections.

 

I was younger at the time (obviously ;)) and completely gave myself up to the medical model of birth-- homebirth never even crossed my mind. I probably would have made different choices knowing what I know now. I think I was just lucky to have an OB who was respectful of my wishes-- she worked WITH me and guided me, but never pressured me to do anything. No pitocin (didn't need it), no pressure for an epidural or other drugs; that was all up to me and I did eventually ask for the epidural. I was allowed to squat or get in whatever position I needed to. But both of mine were "sunny side up" and because I have a very narrow birth canal I ultimately needed the C-sections, or I would have died (blood pressure had dropped dramatically after several hours of straight pushing). I wasn't successful, but at least she respected my wishes to try for VBAC with DD.

 

That said, I do not for a minute think my experience is the norm. I have seen/heard/read too much to believe that is the case. The movie may be somewhat sensationalized, but I think its message is important and real. Women should watch it; if they decide to have a traditional hospital birth in the end, at least they will be empowered to advocate for themselves.

[JoLuRu]

My DD was born on the birthing stool, and my DS was born in the birth pool when I was on my hands and knees. Neither were particularly hard to catch, as far as I know--my DH caught my DS, and he's a software engineer and had never caught a baby before that. I just don't see what's so hard about catching a baby that's coming out when the mother is in some other position other than on her back. :confused:

 

I agree with you! I wish I'd pushed to stay squatting on the ball; it was a drug-free birth and being on my back was unbearable. I felt very out of control, when I'd been managing well until then.

[Plucky]

I haven't seen the movie, but you would think in the NW that birthing babies would be more natural and handsoff, sadly it's just the opposite. I was given every intervention and ended up with a c-section & vacuum extraction that tore me up. Then I had 2 at home very easily. If I were to get pregnant again I would not be able to give birth here vaginally because of the one c-section even though I've had 3 vaginal births. Makes no sense.

[dirty ethel rackham]

:lol: That is so funny.

 

My midwife was so funny. We kept cracking jokes the whole time and that really helped!

 

Funny. One of the signs that I was in active labor is that I no longer found anything funny - just highly annoying. I needed peace and quiet, soft voices and soft, well, everything. Every action that brought me back from the "other planet" brought me pain. If I could stay on that other planet and not need to be aware of the here and now, I felt labor was manageable. I made lots of noise, most of it sounded to me like it came from someone else, far away.

[Caraway]

This is about so much more than just having a healthy baby at the end. This is about dignity of self. When someone cuts into your body, when somebody makes a decision that has the potential to cause YOU injury (NOT them), and they don't take the time that they COULD, in many cases, reasonably take to make you understand WHY they believe it's necessary, or when they don't even have a reason why you, specifically need to have such-and-such done to your person but do it anyway, it can create a HUGE sense of violation. Especially when you find out that the "reasons" you were given for what they did were either exaggerations, or just out-right lies to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. And it's made even worse when what they did created long lasting physical consequences that YOU, not THEY, have to deal with after you leave that hospital.

 

There may still be a healthy baby in your arms when it's all over, but the emotional scarring can take a long time to heal.

 

In my case we probably won't have any more children based on my last birth. My baby is healthy, many of the people involved have been disciplined or fired. It has been 15 mos, and I am still not over it. Not sure I ever will be.

[MiniBlondes]

I had 2 natural hospital births. With my oldest I tried to get an epidural but it never worked. The anes. claimed that my spine was crooked and he couldn't insert it correctly. :glare: With my second, she just came so fast that there was no time for medication. I wouldn't say that I enjoyed either of these experiences... except that I got 2 bundles of joy from them.

 

I actually enjoyed the documentary in question. I watched it about 2 years ago and it actually opened up my mind in regards to home birth and midwifery. I decided that if we are ever blessed with another child, I would definitely consider home birth with a midwife. It broke apart some of the preconceived notions that I'd had regarding home birth and it's description of unnecessary medical intervention really made a lot of sense to me.

 

I realize that home birth is not for everyone. But I do support the 'woman's right to choose'. In this case, anyway. ;)

[Bearcat]

I have never had a c-section and have never felt pressured to have a c-section or be induced. I have given birth in the Pacific Northwest and in the Midwest.

My first was over a week late and came out at almost 10 pounds. It was not an easy labor at all. The doc talked to me about a c-section but I really did not want one so she did not push. The baby's heart rate kept dipping way down and they were concerned but they worked with me, moved positions etc, to help. My nurse and doc both understood that I did not want a c-section and really did what they could to avoid it. I was torn pretty bad and things were rough but we did get him out after a few hours and everything was fine.

After that I was a little concerned and did not want to go past my due date or end up with another 10 pound baby but also still did not want a c-section. My (new) doc knew this. She offered an induction at 38 weeks but I told her I wanted to wait until I was 40 weeks and see what happened. She was okay with that. I finally decided on a scheduled induction the day of my due date. Before I went in I started contracting pretty good and could tell I was in early labor. When I went to the hospital I told them I felt I was already in early labor. They checked me out and agreed so decided to let me sleep and skip the pit until morning to see how things progressed. Sure enough my water broke within the hour and she came on her own in the middle of the night. She weighed a whole pound less than her brother at 9 pounds.

Repeat the same basic outline with my third except add extreme bleeding post birth that had me totally freaked out. That is a whole 'nother story though. (The last one weighed even less, just over 8 1/2. They are getting smaller! We shall see what will happen with the next one.)

Again, I was never pressured to do something I did not want to do. (I forgot to mention I had mild pre-eclampsia with the last two.) Maybe that is not the norm but somehow I don't think the extreme opposite is the norm either.

[momacacia]

I've had two wonderful home/waterbirths and would wish my births on anyone having a baby.

 

Maybe I just birth easily or have been granted easy births, but I also know I'm not the physcially strongest girl on the block and that I do put in a lot of emotional, physical and mental training into "birth preparation." Sure, I do all the supplements and vitamins my midwife recommends, but I think my psychological "birth prep" is a big part of my enjoying my birth experiences.

 

I've never seen Business of Being Born. From what I read of it on here, I honestly wish they would do a similar expose on homebirth---show lots of homebirths and natural births, talk to midwives, get into the homebirth culture and mindset, why different families choose it, benefits to mom and baby, etc. I think it likely to do more for the homebirth and/or natural birth movement than something like Business. While it's important to expose the state of hospital birth in our nation and our imo less-than-optimal cultural mindset on birth, I think it would be wonderful to show the positive, beautiful potential that there is in natural and homebirth because it is so little covered in the media and our daily culture.

[PeacefulChaos]

OP here (again).

 

I guess I don't buy into it being a conspiracy. Maybe it's just a reality of our "modern" lives.

 

But I do admit I avoid doctors and hospitals because I do feel more like a number than a person when I go there. It also feels like half of what they do is completely unnecessary.

I agree with the bolded.

However, I LOVE hospitals. Like, seriously, the one I had my kids in I absolutely love. Going there has made me want a job in healthcare, which I never would have seen myself doing. But I love the whole thing - fluorescent lights, shoes squeaking on shiny linoleum floors, the smell, the feeling of being clean and antiseptic... just everything. To me, the thought of giving birth at home gives me the willies. It's just so... messy. And dirty. And yucky. :ack2: :lol: (That's my personal opinion, and I know YMMV :) ) Give me a hospital with people who will take care of me and take the baby to the nursery all night! :D

Lol, I still don't get it. I just stick my finger in the diaper...if it is wet/dirty I change it, no matter how long it has been. If the baby is rooting and fussing I offer the breast, again, no matter how long it has been. I figure the baby knows what it wants, even without a timer, lol.

AHHHH! :lol: This would drive me nuts. I'm totally scheduled - I can't stand the thought of just feeding the baby every time it's hungry (unless, like my kids, it happens to be hungry every 3 hours). I had a SIL who literally fed her daughter every half hour. No. Way. Not a chance - not me!

This is what bothers me about the rhetoric surrounding this issue.

 

Many doctors don't lie. Many hospitals, like the ones I went to, have procedures that involve asking what the mother's birth plan is so they can respect that. No amount of anecdotes about horrible experiences is going to eliminate the fact that hospital births can be wonderful, warm experiences.

 

Is the issue giving women the freedom and information they need to make the choices they need to or just framing hospitals as a horrid and unnatural place to haves babies? Because the second works against the first and very likely does more harm then good.

:iagree:

I live in Canada so it may well be different but barring some statistical evidence I'm not going to accept that. I also won't accept that calling the majority of medical professionals involved in birth liars is particularly helpful when trying to change the system.

:iagree:

 

Saying a healthy baby is all that matters is saying that the mother's physical and emotional health don't matter.

 

It also doesn't take into account that these interventions can harm babies, too. Yes, they can be lifesaving when needed. Doesn't mean that they're without risk when the doc doesn't want to be late to their dinner date.

Well, I did address this once already, but just in case anyone missed it - I'm not saying that people with a traumatic birth experience should just be like, 'oh well'... I think everyone is different in that regard. What I am saying is that no one should assume for anyone else whether they had a fulfilling birth experience or not. I'm sure that no one would love for me to say that surely these women who have had natural homebirths couldn't have possibly had the wonderful experience I did, or imply that they missed out on something by not doing things the way I would or did.

And in the end, yes, there are many women who do eventually have to suck it up and say 'oh well'. Even if they aren't happy with the way things happened, even if things didn't go their way. I've read articles of women who are seriously having issues with the fact that their birth didn't go the way they planned. Yep, it's rough, and it sucks, but we don't always get what we want. Sometimes things just don't go the way we plan. Do I think they should not care at all? I guess not. I had no feelings on birth before I had kids, and so maybe that colors my view a bit, because I got what I expected. I wouldn't have minded it no matter how it turned out, as long as there was a kid at the end.

Anyway, I said it before and I don't think I'm reiterating it as well here at the end of the day as I did this morning. Somewhere on page 5 I replied then, if this doesn't make sense lol.

I know many moms who were told they needed an induction or c/s for a large baby. They were given an ultrasound, told a large weight, and that was it. The docs never mentioned that u/s weights in late pregnancy can be off by up to a pound either way, and some of them who had the induction or c/s ended up with babies well under 8lbs--not anywhere close to the "large" baby they were induced for.

 

I just wanted to clarify - when I say I don't buy into it, I mean I think it's total hogwash for a doctor to say that a woman can't give birth naturally because of the size of the baby. I honestly don't agree with inductions or c sections for anything but medical reasons - even repeat ones. I know, to each their own, but I have some friends who chose repeat c-sections who had their first because of something that would most likely not happen again, and I can't help but wonder why they would choose a surgery over just letting the baby come when the baby comes. And I have fussed at people on fb (and yes, they took offense) when they started talking about wanting to be induced at 33-34 weeks (and had people telling them, 'oh, yeah, you're ready! Get that baby out!') because I tend to get a little soap-boxy about that. :D

Anyway, just wanted to clarify - I wasn't saying I don't believe that it happens, I know it does. My other SIL's last baby was 10 lb 6 oz, born naturally (with an epi), she did fine and recovered fine, and she's pg now and they're already telling her to go on a diet at the end, that she might need a c/s, blah blah blah... It's annoying.

[Bluegoat]

My DD was born on the birthing stool, and my DS was born in the birth pool when I was on my hands and knees. Neither were particularly hard to catch, as far as I know--my DH caught my DS, and he's a software engineer and had never caught a baby before that. I just don't see what's so hard about catching a baby that's coming out when the mother is in some other position other than on her back. :confused:

 

I wondered about this too with the couple I know where the OB told them she didn't know how to catch in any other position. It seems pretty odd that they couldn't figure it out, or that a person who is supposed to be an expert wouldn't at least have read how to do it at some point in learning about the subject.

[misidawnrn]

I am an L&D nurse. When someone walks in with a "birthplan" they are snickered at by the nurses...I am not kidding! We seem to induce almost everyone because it is convenient for the doctors. If you aren't making major progress by 5PM you will get a C/S. You will be told that it is safer to do a C/S now before the baby gets into distress. What pregnant mom doesn't care for the safety of their baby and so they agree to the C/S. We have an atrocious C/S rate. Almost every doc I work with will talk a patient into a first time C/S because their baby is too big...see it every week and I only work 2 days a week! It is a fact that a first time mom that is induced has a 50% chance of a C/S. Our hospital is no different (and probably higher!) Sometimes I get to work and out of around 14 patients, 1-2 might have had a vag birth, the other 12-13 had a C/S. That is no exageration! Also, the younger nurses that come in have no ability to help a woman who desires to labor naturally. Again, I am not making this up! I get teased "Hey, Melissa...we have one for you in room XXX. She wants natural labor! (insert snicker here!). "

 

It makes me sad that women are coerced or scared into the convenience of a C/S.

 

Don't get me wrong. I also know a few people who have chosen to have a C/S for their first baby. If you make an educated decision to birth the way you want to, then I support that. I don't support doctors pushing them because it is 5PM!

 

Part of the problem is we put you in bed, strap you to monitors that we think will help detect a problem (a problem that is mainly caused by us by stressing the baby with pitocin,) breaking the water at 1cm so the baby has no cushioning-which increases baby's chance of stress, limit your movement and your body's natural ability to get into a position that feels better and allows for baby to get in the right position-which can increase pain, take away all natural coping methods like squatting, rocking, walking, turning, staying focused on something else so you only have the paint to focus on-which leads to getting an epidural, staying stagnant in the bed,.......I could go on and on and on but you get the idea. We used to only allow epidurals when a mom was 4-5 cms. That gave baby time to get into position, mom to change positions for comfort, etc. Our C/S rate was much lower as well.

Edited July 10, 2012 by misidawnrn

[PeacefulChaos]

Oh, so I just checked my state and it has a 36% Cesarean rate. My particular hospital had 30%.

I'm surprised it is that high, tbh. But it does certainly sound better than some of the %s some of the other states have!

[Galatea]

Uh, yeah. A timer? I had never heard of it. I am trying to not laugh out loud about the idea.

 

My daughter spent the first 3 weeks of her life in a children's hospital where everything is done on schedule. This trained her to expect a schedule. A timer was a great thing for my husband and I because we were able to adjust to her instead of making her adjust to us. Of course there were times she was hungry ahead of what the schedule called for, and we adjusted. But in general, she expected to be fed every 3 hours because that is what she had adapted to. I think it's better to consider other situations rather than laugh at people because they are different than you.

[TranquilMind]

Yes, the hospitals here are as pushy interventionist as what is seen in the movie. I was told this last pregnancy (my fourth) after three unmedicated deliveries that it was impossible for me to have the baby without an epidural. Really? Impossible? Even though I've already done it three times?

 

I used to work maternity and saw doctors lie through their teeth to get mothers to consent to inductions and c/sections. In nursing orientation I had an ob tell the new grads to never let a mother deliver without an epidural because he did not want to have to come in and listen to screaming. Our job was to convince the mom to get it before he got there.

 

With this last pregnancy (despite finding a more naturally minded ob) the nurses were upset if I was in any position other than flat on my back. I was tied to a monitor and iv continually despite having no intervention. They kept bright lights on above me despite repeated requests for them to turn them off (and absolutely no reason for them to be on). The whole experience was irritating.

 

Thank you GOD, for home births. I never could have gone through what you mention here. Not to mention that I was over 35 with my first - they would have freaked out.

 

This is more in line with what I have heard other Moms say about their local experiences.

 

Oh, and somebody ought to punch that doctor in the mouth who insisted on epidurals (hello? Needle in the SPINE? ONLY IF seriously necessary!) for all women so he didn't have to "hear them scream". Well, I didn't scream, though I did make that low birth grunt thing that cannot be replicated except when you are pushing out a baby.

 

But I'd like to scream at HIM.

[TranquilMind]

Oh, so I just checked my state and it has a 36% Cesarean rate. My particular hospital had 30%.

I'm surprised it is that high, tbh. But it does certainly sound better than some of the %s some of the other states have!

 

Oh my Lord. 36 percent? Ridiculous.

[justLisa]

My daughter spent the first 3 weeks of her life in a children's hospital where everything is done on schedule. This trained her to expect a schedule. A timer was a great thing for my husband and I because we were able to adjust to her instead of making her adjust to us. Of course there were times she was hungry ahead of what the schedule called for, and we adjusted. But in general, she expected to be fed every 3 hours because that is what she had adapted to. I think it's better to consider other situations rather than laugh at people because they are different than you.

 

 

I'm not laughing at you. I looked up the company and the website looks a bit silly. I can certainly see where it would be helpful in a situation such as yours.

[Momof3littles]

Oh my Lord. 36 percent? Ridiculous.

 

That's pretty close to the national average, IIRC. NOt an anomaly, unfortunately. Remember some of those also come from women who had an unnecessary primary c/s and don't have the option to vbac in their area (even if they are good candidates).

 

That trickle down is why it matters, IMO. Yes, we're all happy when a baby makes it into the world safely, but unnecessary primary c/s can and do affect the options and the health of subsequent pregnancies and births. It doesn't necessarily end with the primary c/s baby's safe arrival.

[TranquilMind]

misidawnrn: I am an L&D nurse. When someone walks in with a "birthplan" they are snickered at by the nurses...I am not kidding! We seem to induce almost everyone because it is convenient for the doctors. If you aren't making major progress by 5PM you will get a C/S. You will be told that it is safer to do a C/S now before the baby gets into distress.

 

Stuff like this makes me want to go into medical malpractice and sue all these c-section happy (blankety blanks).

 

What pregnant mom doesn't care for the safety of their baby and so they agree to the C/S. We have an atrocious C/S rate. Almost every doc I work with will talk a patient into a first time C/S because their baby is too big...see it every week and I only work 2 days a week!

Right. Because every woman in the universe is growing a baby that is "too big" to deliver. Not bloodly likely. You grow the size baby you can deliver, almost all of the time. My first landlord's wife was a tiny Asian woman married to a big Caucasian. She did joke that she should have thought about that before marrying this guy and having a baby with him, and she had a difficult birth, but delivered normally (no C).

 

It is a fact that a first time mom that is induced has a 50% chance of a C/S.

 

I seriously do not understand voluntary induction at all. That is just insanity to me to expel the baby before it is "done" and ready to come out. :confused:

 

 

Our hospital is no different (and probably higher!) Sometimes I get to work and out of around 14 patients, 1-2 might have had a vag birth, the other 12-13 had a C/S. That is no exageration! Also, the younger nurses that come in have no ability to help a woman who desires to labor naturally. Again, I am not making this up! I get teased "Hey, Melissa...we have one for you in room XXX. She wants natural labor! (insert snicker here!). "

 

That's disgusting. Too bad it might inconvenience a nurse to have to deal with a regular labor. I wish all those types would just get the he-double hockey sticks out of the business!

 

It makes me sad that women are coerced or scared into the convenience of a C/S.

 

That is just criminal. Someone ought to sue them.

 

Don't get me wrong. I also know a few people who have chosen to have a C/S for their first baby. If you make an educated decision to birth the way you want to, then I support that. I don't support doctors pushing them because it is 5PM!

 

No freaking kidding.

 

Part of the problem is we put you in bed, strap you to monitors that we think will help detect a problem (a problem that is mainly caused by us by stressing the baby with pitocin,) breaking the water at 1cm so the baby has no cushioning-which increases baby's chance of stress, limit your movement and your body's natural ability to get into a position that feels better and allows for baby to get in the right position-which can increase pain, take away all natural coping methods like squatting, rocking, walking, turning, staying focused on something else so you only have the paint to focus on-which leads to getting an epidural, staying stagnant in the bed,.......I could go on and on and on but you get the idea.

 

Exactly! The hospital intervention causes a LOT of the problems. I was a home and walked nonstop until I laid down to push out the baby. 38 hours. No hospital would have let me do that. Thank GOD for midwives who get it.

 

 

 

We used to only allow epidurals when a mom was 4-5 cms. That gave baby time to get into position, mom to change positions for comfort, etc. Our C/S rate was much lower as well

 

I'm afraid to ask. How quickly do they give the epidurals now? I haven't had a baby in over a decade so I have no idea, but always remember that my midwife said that by the time you needed it, you were usually past all the really hard stuff in a normal, vaginal delivery.

[TranquilMind]

That's pretty close to the national average, IIRC. NOt an anomaly, unfortunately. Remember some of those also come from women who had an unnecessary primary c/s and don't have the option to vbac in their area (even if they are good candidates).

 

That trickle down is why it matters, IMO. Yes, we're all happy when a baby makes it into the world safely, but unnecessary primary c/s can and do affect the options and the health of subsequent pregnancies and births. It doesn't necessarily end with the primary c/s baby's safe arrival.

 

The problem is that C-sections have risks for both Mom and baby, and they aren't easy to recover from for Mom, either. You dont' ever want to open anything up unnecessarily in a hospital. Disease abounds. Infections happen all the time.

[Momof3littles]

The problem is that C-sections have risks for both Mom and baby, and they aren't easy to recover from for Mom, either. You dont' ever want to open anything up unnecessarily in a hospital. Disease abounds. Infections happen all the time.

 

Oh absolutely! I just brought it up from that angle because there were comments up thread about why does it matter, all that matters is that baby arrives safely. I hear that frequently. I think that discounts the risks to subsequent babies born to that mother who had an unnecessary primary c/s, kwim? The risk doesn't end with the safe arrival, and carries on to subsequent pregnancies and births.

[NASDAQ]

I'm Canadian. I had two emergency c-sections and then a VBA2C, all with my OB, who is excellent. My experience with doctors and hospitals has been great. And FWIW, the c-sections were easier recoveries.

 

The most recent studies on home birth are saying that it's not as safe. That doesn't necessarily mean that we ought to ban it -- people can take bigger risks than that -- but it means that I think making movies encouraging it all is not a great idea and not something I would want to support.

 

There was a piece in the Daily Beast on this not that long ago:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/25/home-birth-increasingly-popular-but-dangerous.html

[TranquilMind]

My mom has been an L&D nurse for 30+ years and was there for the long, drawn out induction (2 weeks overdue) of my first baby. When my doctor gave a deadline of 10:30 to push out the baby or have a C-section, my mom told me it wasn't for the health of me or the baby - everything was taking awhile but we weren't in any distress - but because he had an 11 pm shift change and didn't want to stay over. She yelled at him for me and he backed down. I don't doubt that I would have had an unnecessary C-section without her knowledgeable advocacy.

 

With my third at a different hospital, different doctor, the baby flipped breech in the days before my due date. My doctor immediately scheduled a C-section at my prenatal appointment, despite two previous vaginal births. I went home and called my mom, who insisted that I call for a manual version (flipping the baby) before agreeing to a C-section, and explained that even if the baby didn't flip, a vaginal birth can be done with a breech baby but most doctors don't want to take the risks. I called my doctor and she was quite hesitant to try flipping the baby, but it worked and I had an easy vaginal birth.

 

Without having a personal advocate who was inside the system and knew the right things to say, and not knowing those things myself, I would easily have ended up with unnecessary C-sections with both of those births.

 

I'm so glad it worked for you. If only all women had knowledgeable insiders to help them out!

[TranquilMind]

IF you end up with a healthy mother and a healthy baby. C-sections are major surgery. Ideally no one would ever undergo one unless it was life or death necessary.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for the option. Baby #4, a premature footling breech with the cord on the cervix, was my c-section. But it shouldn't be able to be requested. It should be by necessary medical necessity and only at 38 weeks unless an absolute emergency.

 

There are just too many health risks and too many complications and I believe they will find there are more complications than we currently realize.

 

I'm considered high risk. As a matter of fact, I am considered "so" high risk at this point that my last doctor was a perinatologist specializing in high risk deliveries rather than an OB. (I have easy peasy deliveries though. ;) ) I actually don't believe my pregnancies are nearly so scary as the medical profession would like to believe - just scary. I think that the medical profession isn't as pushy IF mothers would bother to be informed and in charge and be an advocate for themselves.

 

Truly I consider myself incredibly blessed to have had the obstetric professionals I've dealt with - but I've had several incredible doctors - one in the military, one in a "regular" practice, one in a high risk hospital, and one here in Oregon. I've also dealt with one total pain in the tailfeathers, but he was the exception.

 

All that said, I FIRMLY believe an at home birth (not at the hospital), supervised by a trained professional (CNM) is the safest and healthiest choice for all involved in your average pregnancy & delivery. I've NEVER been able to have a homebirth and I STILL firmly feel, after much research, that is the safest choice. That said, in my situation, I am grateful for hospitals and science. :D

 

ETA: I think it's interesting to note that most women DO believe they had to have their necessary c-sections. Some did. Some didn't. For example, did you know that women often can and do dilate PAST 10cm? They do. If doctors would stop shoving their hands in places they don't belong, your body will literally take over and you will push out the baby. No stirrups, no drama, no pushing, no breathing, no counting.

 

You WILL feel your body take over. You'll feel the baby rotate and move down WHEN your cervix is as open as it needs to be. I've delivered a baby at 6.5cm. As open as it needed to be. And with our daughters Abigail, Sarah, Daniella, and Olivia, I was very adamant that I wanted a natural birth - no checking for dilation. If we had confidence in our bodies and were informed and had SEEN and EXPERIENCED other womens' birth experiences, we would know what a NORMAL birth experience was. But we don't. Instead we watch TLC where we are totally numb, dependent on "experts" to tell us when we can push, and follow their instructions. Result? Long pushing, vacuums, forceps, damaged babies, unnecessary c-sections.

 

As women, frankly, we do not understand the natural birth process. :( I'm not angry about it. I'm sad. I'm really sad.

 

I had two societally "normal" births with Briana and Christian that resulted in a damaged cervix. That damaged cervix can no longer function correctly and hold a baby. So baby #3 died tragically early because the cervix didn't work right anymore. Who knows what caused it? But my so called "normal" births didn't help. Follow Baby #4 - my c-section.

 

I was bound and determined to deliver #5 naturally and did so though painfully, lol. She was sunny side up with a hand by her head. Ouch. Baby #5 wasn't natural due to a cerclage (stitch) that couldn't be removed without an epidural.

 

But, my truly natural births, sans drugs with a doctor who really KNEW me well, were beautiful, beautiful births. I really wish that everyone could experience birth as it is meant to be. It was painful. Oh, my, yes it was! But the recovery was AMAZING compared to my c-section and really ALL of my other births. I really wonder about the "chemical/hormonal" side of giving birth. I wonder about the euphoria and the bonding. I absolutely know I was completely bonded to my c-section baby. :) So I don't compare the two. But the wonderfulness that is giving birth and then feeling GREAT is a world apart from c-section. And I guess what frustrates me is not the women who choose to have an elective or semi-elective c-section because they just don't know, often, the difference between normal birth patterns and completely non-normal birth patterns, but they are advised and pushed and prodded by a system that thinks everyone should be typical. It's frustrating. :(

 

This was a great post! You are so right.

 

My nearly 40 year old body hopped out of bed and went to the kitchen for a snack after the birth of my 10.5 pound son. I was hungry! My midwife told me to go rest and don't take the stairs for a couple of days.

 

That's how you are supposed to feel after birth. I didn't the first time, only because I was so exhausted (because I didn't eat!), but the second labor - and we all know subsequent labors are typically easier and quicker - was only 9 hours. I felt great!

 

My friend Jennifer showed up in church the day after having her 10th baby, and shoved it in my arms to go forward and say a few words (or praise God or something...long time ago, but I remember thinking that this was awesome!).

[TranquilMind]

. When I told him that I would only be induced if it were medically necessary, he acquiesced but seemed sheepish... He wasn't used to patients knowing what they want and being willing to speak up. That is my beef - doctors and nurses taking advantage of trusting, uninformed patients to suit their own purposes, not the best interests of the patients.

 

 

 

Yes, I have a real problem with this.

[TranquilMind]

One of them talked big talk about being natural birth friendly, and they were.... sort of. They're still going to pit you, if not before birth, immediately after.

 

 

Why? How would this make sense?

[TranquilMind]

Yes, there are hospitals and OBs that are like the movie said. Many. I had one. Ended up with a c-section. Why? Nurse told me. The Dr. wanted to leave as he had dinner plans. There was zero medical reason for my surgery. Why did I consent? I didn't. I was begging the Dr. not to. He pressured and finally told my DH that if we didn't do a c-section at that time we would risk having to do a stat c-section later and really why would he want to put his wife and baby at risk?

 

So guilt trip. That's what made my dh sign....all the while I was crying and saying no.

 

That's horrible. Ricki Lake should have talked to YOU. Jerk doctor.

[Lisbeth]

I really hate that term. My last one was, I think, "natural". It was a vaginal birth with no epidural. I was also close to bleeding to death which, considering how truly dangerous childbirth can be for humans, would also have been completely natural.

 

Natural is a neutral term and there's no inherent virtue or good in it.

 

Don't take this rant as condemning midwives or vaginal births or whatever. I just have growing issues with the way we use the term natural these days.

 

I agree. There is a whole lot of early death and cruelty in nature. As humans, we can do better.

[ktgrok]

I'm Canadian. I had two emergency c-sections and then a VBA2C, all with my OB, who is excellent. My experience with doctors and hospitals has been great. And FWIW, the c-sections were easier recoveries.

 

The most recent studies on home birth are saying that it's not as safe. That doesn't necessarily mean that we ought to ban it -- people can take bigger risks than that -- but it means that I think making movies encouraging it all is not a great idea and not something I would want to support.

 

There was a piece in the Daily Beast on this not that long ago:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/25/home-birth-increasingly-popular-but-dangerous.html

 

The "doctor" that they quote in that article, that is disputing the safety of homebirth, hasn't practiced in about a decade I believe, and has made a living for the most part by bashing homebirth...she's a paid internet troll.

 

The Wax Study they cited included unplanned homebirths, without trained attendents. It is the ONLY study that says it isn't safe. Here is a recent study, that actually controlled for such things: http://www.cmaj.ca/content/early/2009/08/31/cmaj.081869.full.pdf+html

 

That said, it is amazing you found a doctor to support VBA2C...in my area (and I mean within a 2 hour drive) there are no doctors that will support it, period. Women have to go into it refusing surgery and hoping they can manage to deliver before anyone tries to get a court order.

Edited July 11, 2012 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

Why? How would this make sense?

 

It speeds up delivery of the placenta....it is normal practice to inject the woman in the thigh with pitocin as soon as the baby is out, IF she somehow managed to avoid pit during labor....although that is pretty rare.

[Caraway]

Why? How would this make sense?

 

They gave me pit right after - without my consent. One nurse said it was because it was "routine" and the other said it was because it was "an emergency". :glare:

 

I had a number of complications from the pit, and would have refused it if given a chance.

[TranquilMind]

Vegan Cupcake - DH said I was "getting in touch with my inner moose" - moaning and grunting. That was very helpful!

 

Lol at the "inner moose". :D

[TranquilMind]

.

[TranquilMind]

It speeds up delivery of the placenta....it is normal practice to inject the woman in the thigh with pitocin as soon as the baby is out, IF she somehow managed to avoid pit during labor....although that is pretty rare.

Wow, really? News to me.

 

That placenta just came right out for me both times. No drugs and at home. We threw it away in a trashbag!

[PeacefulChaos]

Oh absolutely! I just brought it up from that angle because there were comments up thread about why does it matter, all that matters is that baby arrives safely. I hear that frequently. I think that discounts the risks to subsequent babies born to that mother who had an unnecessary primary c/s, kwim? The risk doesn't end with the safe arrival, and carries on to subsequent pregnancies and births.

 

True, but when it's medically necessary, it just is.

 

Our local hospital (which is not where I went - not in a million years!) actually did tell a friend of mine that she shouldn't try a VBAC. He said they weren't staffed to handle it. :001_huh: I guess he meant they weren't staffed to handle it if there was a problem. They're a small community hospital, no NICU or anything.

Hence why I never went there. :D To me, it was always worth the 1+ hr drive. But I am partial to my dear hospital. ;) :lol:

[Coffeetime]

This is what bothers me about the rhetoric surrounding this issue.

 

Many doctors don't lie. Many hospitals, like the ones I went to, have procedures that involve asking what the mother's birth plan is so they can respect that. No amount of anecdotes about horrible experiences is going to eliminate the fact that hospital births can be wonderful, warm experiences.

 

Is the issue giving women the freedom and information they need to make the choices they need to or just framing hospitals as a horrid and unnatural place to haves babies? Because the second works against the first and very likely does more harm then good.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[NASDAQ]

The "doctor" that they quote in that article, that is disputing the safety of homebirth, hasn't practiced in about a decade I believe, and has made a living for the most part by bashing homebirth...she's a paid internet troll.

 

Paid by whom, the ACOG? At least, unlike my city-mate Gloria Lemay, she hasn't killed anyone. Michelle Goldberg also posted a response to the criticisms of the doctor she cited: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/05/michelle-goldberg-answers-a-critic-s-distortions-of-her-home-birth-argument.html

 

The Wax Study they cited included unplanned homebirths, without trained attendents. It is the ONLY study that says it isn't safe.

 

My understanding is that the recently released Colorado numbers are not good, and that Johnson and Daviss has some sketchiness built into the comparison groups, that recent research on the Netherlands is not pro-home birth, etc.

 

That said, it is amazing you found a doctor to support VBA2C...in my area (and I mean within a 2 hour drive) there are no doctors that will support it, period. Women have to go into it refusing surgery and hoping they can manage to deliver before anyone tries to get a court order.

 

It really fell into my lap. My OB is excellent. He knew that I wasn't done having children and had wanted a VBAC, and right after #2 was born (I was disappointed) he let me know that he'd support me doing a VBA2C provided everything looked clear. Then he drove in to the hospital off shift to handle the birth. He handles a lot of large families though, so he doesnt assume that the third baby is your last one, so why worry. That said, I wouldn't be comfortable just showing up and refusing surgery.

[NASDAQ]

"Our local hospital (which is not where I went - not in a million years!) actually did tell a friend of mine that she shouldn't try a VBAC. He said they weren't staffed to handle it. :001_huh: I guess he meant they weren't staffed to handle it if there was a problem. They're a small community hospital, no NICU or anything."

 

That usually means that they aren't able to do a crash c-section -- they don't always have an operating room free, an anesthesiologist, and so on.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Our local hospital (which is not where I went - not in a million years!) actually did tell a friend of mine that she shouldn't try a VBAC. He said they weren't staffed to handle it. :001_huh: I guess he meant they weren't staffed to handle it if there was a problem. They're a small community hospital, no NICU or anything.

 

That's one of the myriad of excuses our local hospital (which does have a NICU) gives for it's VBAC bans. They don't have an in-house anesthesiologist who is dedicated to JUST the OB floor. My guess is they don't have the volume to pay such a person. Never mind that pesky little fact that ACOG has changed their staffing recommendations recently to be much more relaxed than they have been in prior years.

 

The whole thing is a mess. OB residents come out of residency having never once seen a natural birth. Same for nursing students coming out of nursing school. When I had a med-free hospital birth 7 yrs ago, I had a seasoned nurse who'd probably been in the business 20-25 yrs and she said, "I haven't done a birth like that in years!".

 

It's terribly sad to me that very few women are allowed to birth in the manner they feel comfortable whilst also having the medical technology a heartbeat away *IF* it's needed. You have to pick one or the other. Heaven forbid you should want the luxury of both.

 

The system won't change, I think, until insurance companies start reimbursing the same amount for a surgical birth as they do for a vaginal birth.

[Momof3littles]

They don't have an in-house anesthesiologist who is dedicated to JUST the OB floor. My guess is they don't have the volume to pay such a person. Never mind that pesky little fact that ACOG has changed their staffing recommendations recently to be much more relaxed than they have been in prior years.

 

.

I was going to say the same thing. Except, I didn't know ACOG changed their recommendations. I know the NIH report on vbac addressed the 24 hour in house anesthesiology practice and stated it wasn't necessary, but I didn't know ACOG had adopted that.