If you are ok with guns, what do you think about this?

[Wyndie]

I wouldn't have a problem with this.

 

My problem is that many states don't do much training for cc these days. There are a lot of people with ccp who don't really have enough experience with guns. That does make me uncomfortable, even though I'm perfectly comfortable with people having guns in general. It leads to too many situations like this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/18/pastors-daughter-accident_n_1286605.html

 

There have been too many people shot *exactly* this way because people who are not gun-savvy are carrying guns. If you don't know anything about semi-automatic weapons, then you don't know that it loads a round automatically when you put in the magazine. If you know about guns, then you would know that you should clear the chamber, which would have popped out the round.

 

eta: And any establishment has the right to makes its own rules. Any rules they make do not infringe upon your *rights*.

 

I am closely related ;) to a member of a church who provides this service. They (all the people providing security in this fashion) are required to go to the shooting range and practice monthly as well as take safety classes. My relative takes his position very seriously, not to mention he likes having an excuse to carry. ;)

 

I would not want to go to a church that advertizes they are gun-free...it would only keep the honest people from carrying...I like knowing there's someone in the church ready to defend us with lethal force if necessary.

[Mrs Mungo]

I am closely related ;) to a member of a church who provides this service. They (all the people providing security in this fashion) are required to go to the shooting range and practice monthly as well as take safety classes. My relative takes his position very seriously, not to mention he likes having an excuse to carry. ;)

 

Again, I would have no problem with highly-trained church members providing security. My problem is not with that at all. My problem is with random people wanting to carry a gun *everywhere* just because they can, and many of them *are not* trained. That makes me really uncomfortable. I know someone who was shot in circumstances close to those in the article (but not at church).

[Bootsie]

'Ten states -- Arkansas, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Texas and Wyoming -- specifically bar concealed-weapon permit owners from carrying their weapons into a church or other house of worship.

South Carolina prohibits guns in a "church or other established religious sanctuary" unless permission is obtained from the appropriate church official or governing body.

In Utah, people who get licenses to carry concealed weapons can carry them in a church unless a "No Guns" notice is posted at the door or the church registers with the state as a no-guns site.

Virginia prohibits taking a firearm to a place of worship "without good and sufficient reason." ' from http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11319&Itemid=53

 

This information is from 2010, so it may not be up-to-date. I am wondering if OP is from Virginia and hte "good and sufficient reason" has come up.

[QueenCat]

The part about not having the gun "on the grounds" would be an issue, as many would want to have it in their car if they were going somewhere before or after church where they would normally carry the gun.

[Paige]

I think it is a bad idea based primarily on the fact that it would create division in the church. It seems like picking a fight. Have there been problems with church members flashing weapons and intimidating people? I don't see the point in making this an issue. I have never once entered a church and wondered if my neighbor was packing. I would assume that most people aren't, but I don't really care if anyone is.

[Chris in VA]

Thanks for an interesting discussion!

 

To answer some of the questions posed by some posters, I have no idea who came to the vestry (our elders, I guess you could say) and proposed the discussion. I don't know why, either. (Geez, you may be thinking, for a priest's wife, she sure is out of the loop...You'd be right. :D)

 

FWIW, it was discussed but not passed.

[LizzyBee]

It's hard to say without knowing anything about the church. I go to a rather large church, and we've had known sex offenders and ex-cons attending. I know there are people keeping an eye on these people and I know there are people carrying in church, although I don't know who specifically. We have some members in law enforcement, and I would not be surprised if they are packing, and I think there are a few others in addition to them. In our particular church, I am glad to know that the administration has considered and discussed security issues and policies are in place to ensure the safety of our children and congregation.

Edited March 31, 2012 by LizzyBee

[Slartibartfast]

Again, I would have no problem with highly-trained church members providing security. My problem is not with that at all. My problem is with random people wanting to carry a gun *everywhere* just because they can, and many of them *are not* trained. That makes me really uncomfortable. I know someone who was shot in circumstances close to those in the article (but not at church).

 

 

 

I agree.

 

I wouldn't have an issue with the people who have police and military training carrying a weapon.

 

I think *most* people are too inexperience and ill equipped to deal with an actual emergency that it could go bad, fast.

 

I am not afraid of guns, I grew up with guns in the house and we have them in my home now. I am afraid of idiots with guns

[MamaT]

I understand bans on weapons in places like schools and hospitals and such, but it bothers me when other entities that are not protected as "gun free zones" under the law want to restrict the legal right of those who have lawfully obtained a concealed carry permit. Those who are carrying illegally or with ill- intent are not going to pay attention to the sign anyway so it really only infringes on those who are following the law.

 

I was thinking this also. Our church does have armed security, and I'm glad.

[Caroline]

 

I am not afraid of guns. I am afraid of idiots with guns

 

Yes.

[LizzyBee]

I am not afraid of guns, I grew up with guns in the house and we have them in my home now. I am afraid of idiots with guns

 

:iagree: This is exactly why I'm glad that there are people with training who are armed at our church.

[Enough]

Sometimes it is. Unfortunately, in the world in which we live, a church needs to be realistic. There are bad people in the world. Our church is a downtown parish. We get a LOT of interesting visitors every week. Some are mentally ill. Some are homeless. Some are dangerous. We treat them all the same when they walk through the door - as if they are Jesus himself. But, we have to be careful. And, I certainly feel safer knowing that a number of our ushers carry.

 

Huh. So if one of these "interesting visitors" whom you treat like "Jesus himself" went bat**** and flipped up all the tables in your parish hall, would one of your carrying members have shot him/her/Jesus?

[Enough]

I am not anti-gun; we own and use guns regularly.

 

I AM anti-concealed carry for anyone other than law enforcement. I don't believe in or desire an ordinary (i.e. barely trained) citizen army/militia.

[pqr]

I am not anti-gun; we own and use guns regularly.

 

I AM anti-concealed carry for anyone other than law enforcement. I don't believe in or desire an ordinary (i.e. barely trained) citizen army/militia.

 

I have no issue with demanding training for a CCP but every citizen has a right to defend himself and given some of the threats out there I do not see why there is an issue with a trained individual carrying a firearm to protect himself.

[Jennifer in MI]

Huh. So if one of these "interesting visitors" whom you treat like "Jesus himself" went bat**** and flipped up all the tables in your parish hall, would one of your carrying members have shot him/her/Jesus?

 

That's ridiculous! Of course not!

 

If someone came into our church with a weapon and started threatening people in our church, then YES!!!! They should fire at them. YES!!! Jesus wouldn't fire at people unprovoked.

 

And, if someone came in an started acting crazy and flipping over tables, their reaction would be proportional. IF people were in danger, they would definitely react in kind (without drawing weapons, of course!). If these people were just mentally challenged and started flipping tables, but had no weapon and nobody was in danger, they would keep them from hurting themselves and others.

 

My husband (an Episcopal priest) says the MI law states that anyone carrying a concealed weapon needs permission to do so in a house of worship. Those who do at our church are almost all current or retired police officers and therefore, we are sure they know proportional response.

 

I have seen hungry people come into our church and be fed. I've seen metally challenged people come into our church and start yelling during a service be treated with respect and led to a quiet area of our church where they cannot interrupt the worship. I totally trust those who carry to respond appropriately to all different situations.

[eternalknot]

Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house."

 

There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path.

 

If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church.

 

My husband has his CCP. He almost always carries, even to church.

 

He gets extremely frustrated with well-meaning people rolling out the red carpet for their vulnerability (his words, not mine). But what really chaps his hide is having his rights as a law-abiding citizen trumped by irrational fears brought on by those who deliberately break the law (his thoughts/words, not mine).

 

I don't share his enthusiasm or comfort level or desire/need to conceal carry, but since he fit the parameters set forth in the OP I'm answering on his behalf using his words. He loves him some gun talk, and right now he's lovin' him some PQR, too :D.

[Annie G]

Since the church is private property, I'm fine with whatever rules they choose to pass. Their property, their rules.

[Lisbeth]

Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house."

 

There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path.

 

If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church.

 

This. I think it is not the smartest idea to advertise that every one in a building is a sitting duck. I also would leave a particular Church (not the faith overall) over such a policy.

[scrappyhappymama]

In the three cases I mentioned, the gunmen did not attend the church [ETA - and they were there with strong anti-religious motives]. Unless the church was checking people at the door (a very bad idea, IMO!), the church policy wouldn't have prevented anything.

 

The church policy may not have prevented a non-member with an agenda from bringing a gun onto the premises. But the policy would likely prevent a member from carrying and being able to defend the folks there and possibly preventing additional loss of life.

 

After those shootings, I've always felt a little uneasy in church. It just seems such a vulnerable position, to be sitting with all our backs facing the doors. Several churches I've attended have folks who carried, especially since then, and I feel better for it. In one congregation, a city sheriff was an elder and he was always carrying. I prefer knowing that if someone comes in and starts shooting, I can duck and there will be some folks shooting back.

 

'Ten states -- Arkansas, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Texas and Wyoming -- specifically bar concealed-weapon permit owners from carrying their weapons into a church or other house of worship.

South Carolina prohibits guns in a "church or other established religious sanctuary" unless permission is obtained from the appropriate church official or governing body.

In Utah, people who get licenses to carry concealed weapons can carry them in a church unless a "No Guns" notice is posted at the door or the church registers with the state as a no-guns site.

Virginia prohibits taking a firearm to a place of worship "without good and sufficient reason." ' from http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11319&Itemid=53

 

This information is from 2010, so it may not be up-to-date. I am wondering if OP is from Virginia and hte "good and sufficient reason" has come up.

 

I don't know about the other states, but in Texas the law is written oddly. It does say that churches are off limits (as well as other places like amusement parks and bars and hospitals), but it goes on to say below that, that this is only enforceable if there is a proper 30.06 (the statute number) sign. Most of these places DO NOT post such signs, especially not churches, so concealed carry in a church in TX is actually legal.

 

Again, I would have no problem with highly-trained church members providing security. My problem is not with that at all. My problem is with random people wanting to carry a gun *everywhere* just because they can, and many of them *are not* trained. That makes me really uncomfortable. I know someone who was shot in circumstances close to those in the article (but not at church).

 

I appreciate your concerns about how trained folks with a CCP really are. I have several friends, mostly women, who have gone for their CC license and their ONLY experience with guns is from that class. That does make me feel a little yuck. But, I personally would not feel any more uneasy about this in a church than in any other place. In fact, I think that in a church, things are less likely to get out of hand, so there would be fewer opportunities for undertrained folks to cause problems. So overall, I'd prefer that folks with a CCP be allowed to carry in churches.

[Lisbeth]

My husband has his CCP. He almost always carries, even to church.

 

He gets extremely frustrated with well-meaning people rolling out the red carpet for their vulnerability (his words, not mine). But what really chaps his hide is having his rights as a law-abiding citizen trumped by irrational fears brought on by those who deliberately break the law (his thoughts/words, not mine).

 

I don't share his enthusiasm or comfort level or desire/need to conceal carry, but since he fit the parameters set forth in the OP I'm answering on his behalf using his words. He loves him some gun talk, and right now he's lovin' him some PQR, too :D.

 

Your dh and I are on the same page!

[Mom23Boys]

'Ten states -- Arkansas, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Texas and Wyoming -- specifically bar concealed-weapon permit owners from carrying their weapons into a church or other house of worship.

South Carolina prohibits guns in a "church or other established religious sanctuary" unless permission is obtained from the appropriate church official or governing body.

In Utah, people who get licenses to carry concealed weapons can carry them in a church unless a "No Guns" notice is posted at the door or the church registers with the state as a no-guns site.

Virginia prohibits taking a firearm to a place of worship "without good and sufficient reason." ' from http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11319&Itemid=53

 

This information is from 2010, so it may not be up-to-date. I am wondering if OP is from Virginia and hte "good and sufficient reason" has come up.

 

According to http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20009977-503544.html Governor Jindal signed a law in 2010 which would allow guns in churches, with certain provisions. The provisions I saw were - the congregation must be notified, those who carry guns must have an extra 8 hours of training per year and it wouldn't apply to churches on school grounds.

 

It was supposed to go into effect August 15, 2010. I have found the same news from July on multiple sites, but nothing saying if it was ever overturned or anything. I am assuming it did go into effect.

[bookfiend]

Given that our church recently had a 'credible bomb threat', I would hope some people are CC.

[Farrar]

eta: And any establishment has the right to makes its own rules. Any rules they make do not infringe upon your *rights*.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm very much not a gun lover, but I support the right to gun ownership and to conceal and carry, but I also strongly support the right of property owners (including churches) to impose their own rules.

 

As for the point, I think for some Christians, it's a symbolic statement about creating a peaceful environment in keeping with the ideals of Jesus. I understand that some people disagree with it for various reasons, but I'm a bit astounded that people seem to think a church where people aren't conceal and carrying is unsafe or downright confusing.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

I think there have been a few shootings at churches right? (not lately that I can remember)-so I think that if a person has the concealed carry permit and has gone through whatever training the state mandates with that then they SHOULD be allowed to conceal carry---my dh has one and is urging me to get a CC permit....I don't think I'm ready though.....

[Mergath]

If someone came into our church with a weapon and started threatening people in our church, then YES!!!! They should fire at them. YES!!! Jesus wouldn't fire at people unprovoked.

 

:001_huh:

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't shoot somebody even if they did provoke him.

[mom4him]

I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious after reading the safety thread.

 

Our church recently put an item on the table for discussion--someone wanted to pass a "policy" (for lack of a better word--"rule" maybe) that no guns are allowed to be carried in the church or on church grounds (except during the annual fair, when we do a target-shooting activity called a Turkey Shoot).

 

What do you think of that policy?

 

I really only want folks that would carry a gun themselves or think it's ok to carry concealed--not "always anti-gun" folks, pls.

 

I would need to know why this policy is needing to be put in place. Has there been an incident, is there someone coming to the church carrying that someone is not comfortable with? What is the purpose behind it?

 

My middle son carries ALL the time. He needs it for his work but he carries whether he is working or not. I am not sure in our state they could even enforce a 'law' like that.

[FO4UR]

I prefer law-abiding citizens to be carrying their guns to church. In fact, in a previous church several people (mainly off-duty police) were specifically asked to carry whenever they are at church.

 

I feel safer knowing some rational and sane people are carrying...in the event that some wackadoodle gets a hold of a weapon and decides that church services make an easy target.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious after reading the safety thread.

 

Our church recently put an item on the table for discussion--someone wanted to pass a "policy" (for lack of a better word--"rule" maybe) that no guns are allowed to be carried in the church or on church grounds (except during the annual fair, when we do a target-shooting activity called a Turkey Shoot).

 

What do you think of that policy?

 

I really only want folks that would carry a gun themselves or think it's ok to carry concealed--not "always anti-gun" folks, pls.

 

Dh has a cc permit and carries everywhere, as do several others in both our old church and our current/sometimes church. The worship pastor carried, but he locked his gun in his desk during the service. Of course, none of this is common knowledge. They were discussing their personal guns and this came out after we knew him well.

 

What's the purpose of the policy? A weapon would be much safer with the owner than locked in a car (which may not be legal). And who would enforce it? If it's a conservative church, they may be very surprised to find how many actually carry, although most people may not volunteer that information.

 

Four years ago, several people were killed at a church in Colorado after a service. An armed security guard killed the gunman, and she saved untold lives. My kids had gone to a coop at this church for the previous two years.

 

I don't have any problem with guns in church when they are carried according to the law.

[NASDAQ]

As far as I know, the evidence suggests that marking a place as a "gun free zone" doesn't make that place safer, for fairly obvious reasons.

 

I would therefore take a sign such as "no guns on church property" to be a political message, and I'd avoid such a church. Or else a sign that the church is given to making pointless gestures of "righteousness" without thinking them through, which is also not my thing.

[Jennifer in MI]

:001_huh:

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't shoot somebody even if they did provoke him.

 

You are probably right. He wouldn't. But, if someone came into our church and pulled out a weapon (therefore not acting like Jesus) and threatened the lives of people in our church, then yes. I believe people have the right (and responsibility) to stop the threat. Hopefully that can be done without weapons.

 

Does that make more sense? I'm not saying that when we treat guests as Jesus that we need to continue to do so after that guest threatens people.

[momma aimee]

I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious after reading the safety thread.

 

Our church recently put an item on the table for discussion--someone wanted to pass a "policy" (for lack of a better word--"rule" maybe) that no guns are allowed to be carried in the church or on church grounds (except during the annual fair, when we do a target-shooting activity called a Turkey Shoot).

 

What do you think of that policy?

 

I really only want folks that would carry a gun themselves or think it's ok to carry concealed--not "always anti-gun" folks, pls.

 

no not ok.

 

bad guys shoot up churches too -- so if someone (eg my dh who is law enforcement) is carrying (in his case, off duty) then lives can be saved.

[beccad777]

Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house."

 

There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path.

 

If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church.

 

 

:iagree: The recent church shootings come to mind. I wonder if any of those would have turned out differently if someone in the congregation had been carrying.

[beccad777]

Personally, I think rules that cannot be enforced are silly. And I can't see an usher greeting each worshiper with a handshake, a bulletin, and a patdown every week.

 

 

This almost made me spit my coffee out. That was hilarious! :lol:

[ThisIsTheDay]

Virginia prohibits taking a firearm to a place of worship "without good and sufficient reason." ' from http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11319&Itemid=53

 

Yes, but the Attorney General (and homeschooling dad) Ken Cuccinelli believes a cc permit qualifies as a "good and sufficient reason":

 

"It is my opinion that carrying a weapon for personal protection constitutes a good and sufficient reason under the statute to carry a weapon into a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held there . . ."

 

(He also agrees that churches can ban weapons, if they so choose.)

 

http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/283045

[Audrey]

Given that our church recently had a 'credible bomb threat', I would hope some people are CC.

 

:confused: I was not aware that shooting a bomb was now the preferred disarming method. I always learn such interesting things on this forum.

[pqr]

:confused: I was not aware that shooting a bomb was now the preferred disarming method. I always learn such interesting things on this forum.

 

 

Obviously it is not nor did I read that as what she was saying. Did you really think that the above is what she meant?

 

It seems that a bomb thread indicates that there are evil people out there who would attack a church and having people with CCPs might stop other modes of attack, such as some lunatic walking into a church.....no?

Edited April 2, 2012 by pqr

[Hedgehogs4]

I think concealed carry is fine.

 

How would this policy be enforced? Pat downs as people walk in? If it's concealed, it's concealed and no one (except the pastor and/or security team) needs to know who is carrying. What is the purpose of the ban?

 

Really, as sad as it is to say, I think churches do need security these days.

 

:iagree:People who conceal carry do so out of a certain level of conviction that crime is prevented by responsible citizens being armed. I feel better knowing those people are around.

[Mommyof4ks]

Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house."

 

There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path.

 

If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church.

 

:iagree: If only the bad guys have guns, then we would all be sitting ducks. No thank you! Crime data backs this up.

[Slartibartfast]

I just don't think every gun enthusiast is actually the person I want with the weapon. I don't mind law enforcement and military but I don't want guns in church otherwise. I would leave a church with armed gun enthusiasts.

 

It is illegal to carry guns into churches here, that suits me fine.

[pqr]

I just don't think every gun enthusiast is actually the person I want with the weapon. I don't mind law enforcement and military but I don't want guns in church otherwise. I would leave a church with armed gun enthusiasts.

 

It is illegal to carry guns into churches here, that suits me fine.

 

Understand that in your case only people willing to break the law will have a gun in your church, does that also suit you fine?

 

As I said earlier, when seconds count the police are only minutes away, and I am not fine with that.

 

It is not the individual who took the time and effort to complete the application and get a CCP that worries me, it is and always has been the criminal who worries me.

[K&Rs Mom]

I would leave a church with armed gun enthusiasts.

 

 

You may be in one and not know it - concealed means concealed. Now if it was crazy idiots showing them off, I totally agree.

 

OP, do you know your state law on this? In MI, concealed carry is allowed with the permission of the "presiding official" or open (visible) carry is allowed without permission. Personally, I'd rather people have them concealed, for many reasons (not freaking out the neighbors probably tops the list), which requires permission. Private property (including churches) can post a sign saying "no guns" but that doesn't actually prevent anyone (legal or illegal) from bringing anything onto that property.

Edited April 2, 2012 by K&Rs Mom

[mom2scouts]

Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house."

 

There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path.

 

If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church.

:iagree:

 

My dh saw the post about a handshake, bulletin and patdown and commented that "old, lonely Gertrude might enjoy getting a patdown. The LOVE church!". That man just can't behave!

Edited April 2, 2012 by mom2scouts

[Stacia]

:001_huh:

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't shoot somebody even if they did provoke him.

 

Um, yeah. What she said.... I mean, wasn't there some teaching about 'turning the other cheek' and so on?

 

Is it not enough to trust God these days, not even in His own house? Better pack a weapon just in case...???

 

:001_huh: and :confused:

[SonshineLearner]

Thought about this thread today, when I went to a Theatre production of Busy Town. The person asked if it was at a school or just a theatre. I was a bit impatient not understanding why it mattered. Anyway, he said, "I'm packing" so I have to know if I should leave it in the car...... UGH;) I guess if a wild man came in to the theatre to kill all of us, at least one good guy (who knows how to shoot) would have had a gun...

[Laurie4b]

I don't really get why a church would feel a need to make a policy about this. I imagine that I'm around conceal-carry people often and don't know it. I don't know why I would need to wonder about this at church in particular. :confused: It seems like the kind of thing that would only create unnecessary controversy.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Laurie4b

[Catwoman]

It never occurred to me that anyone would even think of bringing a gun to church. Or anywhere other than hunting or to a shooting range, unless they were police officers or FBI agents or something like that.

 

I don't think I would be comfortable living in a place where people could carry guns around with them all the time. By the same token, though, I guess those of you who live in those areas would be incredibly uncomfortable living where we do, where it's illegal to carry a gun without a very difficult-to-obtain special permit.

 

It's probably like how, years ago, I used to be out with friends at 3am, and there was no such thing as a cell phone, so it never occurred to me to worry that something horrible could happen and I couldn't call for help. Now, if I accidentally leave the cell phone on the kitchen counter and go out without it in the middle of the day, I'm convinced that there will be a terrible emergency and no one will be able to reach me or I won't be able to call 911. :tongue_smilie: If you're used to carrying a gun, it would probably be really strange to go out without it, so I guess I can understand the concern about being vulnerable in a church where guns weren't allowed. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

I learn so much on this forum. It's so easy to get caught up in the assumption that, "this is how we do things here, so it must be how everyone else lives, too," and it's always interesting to hear how differently we really live from one another.