DawnM Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Even through adoption? I am reading about Elton John having a son (surrogate). He is 63 and his son is turning 1. I just can't imagine. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicAnn Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I would if I had enough money (Elton John level of money) to hire the best nannies, cooks, housekeepers. I wouldn't want to have a baby, but adopt maybe. There are lots of grandparents that age who are raising their grandchildren, because the parents can't. I've heard of some old men who married younger women and had kids. So I think it is actually not completely uncommon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMOm Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 It's comparing apples to oranges. Regular folks like us- if we had a child at 62yo, would have to do ALL the work of having children. The lack of sleep early on is physically exhausting even for adults in their 20's or 30's, much less for someone in their 60's. Same with hauling a very heavy older baby/young toddler around- it's physically demanding to carry, pick up, lift, etc. a 25lb. baby/toddler. But Elton John is mega rich- he can afford all of the help he wants. Full time nanny to take over whenever he wants, a night time nurse, etc. He can afford a level of help that your average parent could never afford and I think that makes a difference when contemplating having an infant/toddler in your home in your 60's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeaganS Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 If things go according to plan, I won't be having any after 30, so no, the idea of having a child when I plan to be well on my way with grandchildren makes me tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Even through adoption? I am reading about Elton John having a son (surrogate). He is 63 and his son is turning 1. I just can't imagine. Dawn That is horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to put my child thru loss of a parent when they were so young, if I could help it. That said, I think there are plenty of grandparents doing an awesome job, raising their grandchildren. And, since I believe every child is a blessing, if God chose to give a woman married to an older man, a child, well, sure, that's ok by me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRG Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No! Having one at 40 is totally exhausting! I can't imagine chasing a toddler around all day long when I am in my 60s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Me? No way. Elton John? Why not. He has all the available resources at his fingertips. At 62 you don't lose the capability to love and care for offspring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I wouldn't have one but would take a child who needed a family. Love is the important thing. I would have the luxury of several older siblings for the fun energy stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda in TX Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 My great-great grandfather had his last child when he was in his 70's. That child was my great-grandfather, so I'm pretty glad he was born. :) Me, though? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Even through adoption? I am reading about Elton John having a son (surrogate). He is 63 and his son is turning 1. I just can't imagine. Dawn If I were a man.....an a man of endless financial resources...sure....why not?? Especially if I could have a nice young Mom...and a nursery full of Nannies and toys.... As it is??? No Way!! Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No. Plain and simple, after a certain point, your chances of not living through your child's childhood (much less the point he'd graduate college, have children himself, etc). However, I'd never suggest I could pick a single age for anyone. It is a joke in our family, considering my big kids are 19 and 16 and we have recently started the process to adopt our 3 young foster children, that when they grow up, we'll have to adopt a few more. I am actually not "old" to be parenting these children. However, if I wait 13 years and do it again, I'd definitely be on the upper levels of the time a person could naturally do it. There is a couple in our subdivision who works with our agency. I don't know their ages, but when we met them last February, their biological daughter was 33. Their adopted son was 2. They foster 2-5 children at a time (usually 2 or 3). They prefer under age 3 and they would like to adopt again. Remember, their biological daughter is 33. That would suggest 50some as an age. I'm just not sure. Again, I'd never suggest I could make that decision for anyone else. I just think there is a point when it'd be better to caregive in a different capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) No! Having one at 40 is totally exhausting! I can't imagine chasing a toddler around all day long when I am in my 60s. He can hire people to do that!:D Edited December 2, 2011 by Mommyfaithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I view Elton John's adoption as really adoption by his partner as the primary caregiver, with EJ providing moral support and such. I don't know how old his partner is. Personally, I'm a single and very involved adoptive parent. My kids were born when I was 40. I could not imagine doing this again past the age of 60, at least not without a lot of help. That said, if my kid had a baby and needed my help, I would probably drop everything and do it! My parents are closer to 70 and they do a lot of babysitting for my sister's two high-maintenance babies, sometimes at a moment's notice. Once there is a bond, you do what you gotta do. But, I can't speak for anyone else. Humankind has a wide range of patience and energy levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Well, Elton John can hire an awful lot of people to do the physical care of the child while he just gets all the fun of loving the boy and enjoying him. As the child gets older, as long as Elton is in good health (money tends to help that too because Elton doesn't have to continue to work long hours to provide for his family and he doesn't have to worry about having access to the best medical care in the world), he'll have lots of time to spend with his son. But, normal people work and work and work, physically they are tired and at 62 are generally beginning to slow down a bit. Given that they are still working full-time jobs, and managing All of the other aspects of living, I think that starting over in parenting is a pretty tought row to hoe. I hope to be enjoying grandchildren at that age, but also being able to send them home all hypered up to their parents when I need a nap. :D Additionally, normal people don't have access to help nor the best healthcare money can buy, so there are greater concerns about living to get that child raised to adulthood. It wouldn't be my first choice for dh and I. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to put my child thru loss of a parent when they were so young, if I could help it. That said, I think there are plenty of grandparents doing an awesome job, raising their grandchildren. True, but people raised by their grandparents will experience the same loss when they lose their "parents" at a young age. I was essentially raised by grandmother while she was aged 68 on up. She died in my very early 20s and it was completely shattering. Not that I would change her influence in my life, but it's no better losing the grandparent who was your "parent" than your actual parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelbe5 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Tony Randall had two biological children with his younger wife when he was in his 70's. Again, I am sure they had means for extra help. None of us knows how long we will be here . . . I understand an elderly parent will probably have a limited amount of time with a child, but anything could happen to any parent, young or old, to separate them through death. I guess I am of the mindset that if you have the means, why not? Abraham and Sarah were elderly parents . . . :001_smile: Personally, at 48, I have a hard enough time keeping up with my three. If I were in better physical shape, though, and if I felt I had the resources/stamina, I guess I would not be opposed to having more children in our family. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Would I have a child at 62? Not willingly or intentionally. If, God forbid, something happened that left my grandchildren in need of a home and parenting, then I'd absolutely step up with open arms, but it's not a situation I'd intentionally bring about (ie pregnancy or adoption). Honestly, by the time I'm 62, my current youngest will be in his early-mid 20s. I'll just nicely be done with raising my current batch of monsters...I can't imagine starting all over again. Just the thought makes me exhausted. I'm kinda looking forward to time alone w/Wolf. I had children when we met, so we've never had alone time. Even with oodles of $ that would enable me to hire staff out the wazoo, I wouldn't do it. First, b/c if we decide to add another child to our family, we're raising him/her, not handing off to employees. Second, that season of my life should simply be done by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 My great-great grandfather had his last child when he was in his 70's. That child was my great-grandfather, so I'm pretty glad he was born. :) Me, though? No way. My grandfather was a 70 year old sharecropper with 4 kids under age 10 at one point. My dad, the oldest, was born when his father was 64 (second marriage to a woman in her 20s, but evidently he actually did most of the work of raising the kids). My dad was 27 when his father died. I, on the other hand, was born when my mom was 19, and I was 19 when she died at age 39, so one never knows. I would not seek out a baby now at almost 49. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 His wife was 50 years his junior! Ick! Sorry, maybe you don't agree, but ICK! He also died when his children were very young. His youngest was 5 or 6 when he died. Dawn Tony Randall had two biological children with his younger wife when he was in his 70's. Again, I am sure they had means for extra help. None of us knows how long we will be here . . . I understand an elderly parent will probably have a limited amount of time with a child, but anything could happen to any parent, young or old, to separate them through death. I guess I am of the mindset that if you have the means, why not? Abraham and Sarah were elderly parents . . . :001_smile: Personally, at 48, I have a hard enough time keeping up with my three. If I were in better physical shape, though, and if I felt I had the resources/stamina, I guess I would not be opposed to having more children in our family. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) My MIL was born to her dirt poor farmer parents when her dad was 70. She has 13 older siblings. I think her older siblings sort of stood in for her parents. I had my last child at 30. I want to have my best shot at seeing my kids and grandiose grow up. Eta: that should be *grandkids*, crazy autocorrect. Edited December 2, 2011 by Mrs Mungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Well, I didn't even get married until age 29. But my two bio kids were born to me at ages 31 and 33. My adopted child was born when I was 37. However, I would indeed adopt more kids if the opportunity arose. Dawn My MIL was born to her dirt poor farmer parents when her dad was 70. She has 13 older siblings. I think her older siblings sort of stood in for her parents. I had my last child at 30. I want to have my best shot at seeing my kids and grandiose grow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No. Remember the saying: The rich aren't like you and me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelbe5 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) His wife was 50 years his junior! Ick! Sorry, maybe you don't agree, but ICK! He also died when his children were very young. His youngest was 5 or 6 when he died. Dawn I understand some don't agree with this, but it is a free country and a highly personal decision . . . :001_smile: I had a dear friend who married a much older man. She and her husband were very happy. She confided in me that they planned to start a family very soon after their wedding as she wanted her dh to have as much time as possible with the children. To me, it seemed they had given thought to the pros and cons and still wanted to add children to their lives and bring them into the world. I recall learning about the death of a beloved member of the homeschooling community during childbirth. It was so tragic and made me so sad to hear the news. But as I said before, none of us know the future; anything could happen to any parent at any time. If that fear governed all adults no one would have children. Life, in general, is a risk. :001_smile: While some may argue it is wrong for someone older to have children, that it is not fair or irresponsible, I feel that is a highly personal decision. That is just my very humble opinion. ETA My father will be 80 next year. He is in superb physical health. He was a semi-professional cyclist and even tried out for the 1960 Olympics. He could easily pass for a much younger man (50 or so). People cannot believe it when I tell them how old my father is. He has much more stamina then I do! We went hiking on a very difficult trail this past summer when we vacationed in Colorado and the kids and I could not keep up with my parents (my mother is also in fantastic shape but is 8 years younger than my father). I can see my dad making it to 100. Perhaps the fact that my parents are so healthy and active colors my feelings on this subject. Edited December 2, 2011 by jelbe5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Never in a million years, even if I was mega rich. I know you can lose a parent at any age but why guarantee that your child will be young when he loses you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusksAngel Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I wouldn't. By then mine would be in their 30s (grandkids please!) and I want to give my kids the best chance of me being around to see them grow and to play with my grandchildren. And I can't imagine having the energy to run after a toddler all day at that age. I'm exhausted doing in now in my 30s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Celine Dion's husband is 69 and Celine just had twins last year. I had not noticed anyone complaining about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Celine Dion's husband is 69 and Celine just had twins last year. I had not noticed anyone complaining about that. Well, imo, her dh should have been arrested and prosecuted for S*xual Exploitation (a person in a position of authority, trust or financial control touching someone under the age of 18 for s*xual purposes), so I have a problem w/anything to do w/them :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Never in a million years, even if I was mega rich. I know you can lose a parent at any age but why guarantee that your child will be young when he loses you? 62 is hardly ancient. For the average person I might consider genetics, my family has mostly healthy genes. It's not unusual for people to live well into their 90s. Dh has the same sort of genetics. Unfortunately his father died in a car accident at age 32. Dh's grandmother finally started slowing down about 92, she's still here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0mmaBuck Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Me? No way! Someone else? That's their choice. Elton John? Well, he can afford to raise them Brad and Angelina style, each with their own tutor AND nanny so... Best of luck to them all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No! Having one at 40 is totally exhausting! I can't imagine chasing a toddler around all day long when I am in my 60s. :iagree: I worked with a young man whose father died when the young man was 2yo. He didn't want us to feel bad about it, though, as his dad was 80 when he was born. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda in TX Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 62 is hardly ancient. For the average person I might consider genetics, my family has mostly healthy genes. It's not unusual for people to live well into their 90s. Dh has the same sort of genetics. Unfortunately his father died in a car accident at age 32. Dh's grandmother finally started slowing down about 92, she's still here. My grandmother died when she was 96. Her older sister said she would have lived longer if she'd taken better care of herself. :) That sister lived to be 104. People from that branch of our family tend to live very long lives. My father is part of that line. He's 80 and going strong. I expect him to be around at least 10 more years. Goodness, that doesn't seem long enough. Maybe he'll live to be 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No, I would not want to have a child at 62. I wouldn't mind being a grandma at that age. What someone else does, that is their business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Not just no, but H3LL no! I will be in my late 40s when my youngest goes off to college. I like it like that. :D Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 While some may argue it is wrong for someone older to have children, that it is not fair or irresponsible, I feel that is a highly personal decision. That is just my very humble opinion. Just to clarify, I was answering the question *for myself*, not placing judgment on anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Is pose for photos of said trophy baby to be plastered all over the gossip rags. It seems so unwise and tacky. I know. It is Elton John ..... Anyway, his partner appears much younger than ej so I don't think 63 is that old for a man to become a dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 I think I just read that his partner was born in '61 or '62..... Dawn Is pose for photos of said trophy baby to be plastered all over the gossip rags. It seems so unwise and tacky. I know. It is Elton John ..... Anyway, his partner appears much younger than ej so I don't think 63 is that old for a man to become a dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMom2One Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Of course none of us knows truly what's going on within Elton John's heart, but I've sometimes wondered if he and his partner aren't trying to make a political statement by doing this. Being so famous, and being a public spokesperson for gay rights, he is clearly sending a message out to the world. Or it could be that he is trying to make up for what he passed over for other things as a younger man. Who knows....but at any rate, even if I were incredibly wealthy like Elton, I don't believe I'd be having children at that age. It would all be for purely selfish reasons. For one, my child would have such a shorter time to have a relationship with me due to my age. And I'd leave my grandchildren without a grandparent....and those are just a couple of reasons I wouldn't choose to have a baby at that age. Blessings, Lucinda P.S. Somehow, visualizing 62 yo Elton with a baby on his hip and burp rag on his shoulder seems incredibly odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Well, imo, her dh should have been arrested and prosecuted for S*xual Exploitation (a person in a position of authority, trust or financial control touching someone under the age of 18 for s*xual purposes), so I have a problem w/anything to do w/them :tongue_smilie: Hmm, I had read that he didn't touch her (first kiss) until she was of legal age, but she was madly in love with him long before that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No, as someone who had one parent die at 62 when I was 13 and another at 63 when I was 23. Not fair to the child. You are more likely than not to die before the child is even fully grown. Awfully selfish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 NO, NO WAY! My father was 47 when I was born, died when I was 29. He started getting ill when I was 22, dh and I moved in to take care of him (my parents were separated at the time). He recovered, but then fell ill again several years later and died. I have very few memories of my father as an adult, and most of those revolve around him being ill, sitting at a table (he had little strength) or being in bed. My paternal grandparents died when I was little, so I didn't have them either. Sure, people can die at any age....but the odds are greatly increased as you age. The child will not have a parent when they are 30-40yo, no matter what! Most people do have a living parent when they are that age. Money can buy staff, it cannont buy a parent. A nanny is not a parent. Nannies can come and go, staff can come and go. I am raising my great niece, so our situation is quite similar to someone raising a grandchild, and I have to say, for us the bond is different that with our bio kids. Even though she is with us permanently, she is my niece and not my bio. She doesn't know this, I don't go around telling people that she is my niece (we have always introduced her as our daughter), but it doesn't change the bond. For the first 2.5 years, we expected the state to give her back to her bio-parents, so from the beginning we tried to keep the emotional lines distinct. I am obviously more attached to her than my other nieces/nephews, but just like a nanny...there is a difference that I can't make any different. Once this child reaches the age of 20, he/she will have a parent who is 80ish, and no nanny. They will pretty much be on their own. This is how I felt growing up, and it can be quite lonely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Well, I didn't even know! I don't normally keep with with this stuff, but Anderson Cooper's commercial for an upcoming interview with Elton John came on last night. I didn't even know about it until last night! Dawn Celine Dion's husband is 69 and Celine just had twins last year. I had not noticed anyone complaining about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Of course none of us knows truly what's going on within Elton John's heart, but I've sometimes wondered if he and his partner aren't trying to make a political statement by doing this. Being so famous, and being a public spokesperson for gay rights, he is clearly sending a message out to the world. Or it could be that he is trying to make up for what he passed over for other things as a younger man. Who knows....but at any rate, even if I were incredibly wealthy like Elton, I don't believe I'd be having children at that age. It would all be for purely selfish reasons. For one, my child would have such a shorter time to have a relationship with me due to my age. And I'd leave my grandchildren without a grandparent....and those are just a couple of reasons I wouldn't choose to have a baby at that age. Blessings, Lucinda P.S. Somehow, visualizing 62 yo Elton with a baby on his hip and burp rag on his shoulder seems incredibly odd. I don't think anyone who has ever heard Elton sing could feel that way. (link goes to youtube) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Would I? No. Should anyone else? It's up to them. Parents can die or not be there for their kids physically or emotionally at any age. I don't judge him for making this choice at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I would not assume anyone is adopting or having a baby just to make a statement. Not Madonna, not Brangelina, not Elton John, not the Duggars. I would just assume that he was never in the right place or relationship or something for a baby until now. Like I said, it is not what I chose. But, lots of people make different choices than me and seem extremely happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelbe5 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Just to clarify, I was answering the question *for myself*, not placing judgment on anyone else. Completely understood. No disrespect intended. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 When EJ was trying to adopt an AIDS orphan in Ukraine, he explained that he himself had not thought he'd make a great parent when he was a younger man because he works and travels so much. (Sounds like a responsible thought to me.) But his partner wanted a child, and he felt that as a couple they would make a good home for a child. He was unable to adopt because of Ukraine's rules. So the couple decided to go the surrogate route. If it's true that his partner was born in the early 60's, then I don't see any reason to expect that this child will be orphaned. He has two parents and each of the parents has a lot to offer. Honestly, I was happy to hear they had become parents, although I wish they had been able to do it via adoption as they had hoped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) Isn't the other dad in the picture a lot younger, though? So Jr. and Second Dad can help with Sir Elton when age catches up to him ;-) PS he can't be 62 - I was just yelling with thousands of other kids in Dodger Stadium at a concert of his, oh, wait...that was decades ago!!!!:confused: does this mean I am old, too??? :glare: PPS - my mom and her folks were in a car accident when she was six years old. Her dad died. Her mom didn't remarry for several years. They bounced from relative to relative in Kansas during the Great Depression. There are no guarantees that a younger parent will not die young. Ask my neighbor struggling with stage 4 colon cancer in her late 30's (with three young kids at home.) Edited December 2, 2011 by JFSinIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenaj Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 My uncle who is now 73 or 74 had children at age 61 and 63 with his second wife who was in her late thirties. He has been a much better father to these kids than he was to his "first" set of kids who are now in their forties. He has fun with them, takes them with him constantly (he's a farmer). The oldest is a boy and is a really neat kid, already a hard worker, good head on his shoulders. I don't know the younger daughter as well but it seems that for my uncle, he is having a great time with this "second chance" at fatherhood and is doing a good job at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I wouldn't, even if I had money to hire help. If I was adopting a child, I'd want to raise that child -- not pay someone else to raise him/her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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