Moms of girls: college bound or keeper of home? (Christian related)

[Lisawa]

I agree. I think my big thing with the whole degree thing is the money. If a person's goal in college is just to become more educated, there are better and wiser ways of doing it than going off to a 4yr school. If the goal is to be employable, then yes, a degree is pretty much a necessity. For us, with me not having a degree, it does make my faith stronger and really trust that God will provide for us now, and in the future if something happened to dh. I think that to get a degree 'just in case' can hinder faith sometimes in some people, b/c they can rely on their degree for provision instead of God. If something did happen to dh and I had to support the family, I would take some of the insurance money and go back to school. But I'm not going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a 'just in case' scenario, and I'm not going to encourage any of my kids in that direction, either.

 

 

I dont understand this.... I dont think it hinders faith at all, but instead can aid in putting faith into action. I really want to understand what you are saying here... so please be patient with me...

 

I dont see how and why going to college for a degree can be about money, when a lot of missionary's now a days need "college" and training that costs money to be a missionary. A lot of ministry's call for "some" training.

 

The point to the OP was should girls be trained as keepers at home, or go to college or both.....

 

It seems to be implying a lot to say that a degree for a degree is about money.... and that doesn't seem to be right to me....

 

Maybe I completely misunderstood you.... and I'm sorry... I'm open to you explaining or even telling me I didn't get it....:) but this is how I understood what you posted....

[Carol in Cal.]

I want my DD to be a whole person, able to take care of herself in life.

 

That means she should be educated to her fullest potential, and able to establish and pursue a career. It also means that she should know how to take care of a home, understand the importance of being a good mother, and, ideally, learn how to be one from watching me (ahem. My challenge, in one phrase. I did say 'ideally.') It also means that she should know how to maintain a car, how to cut a lawn, and how to split wood.

 

It does not mean that she needs to do all of these things throughout her life. It just means that she should be able to.

[abreakfromlife]

no, I guess I wasn't terribly clear, now that I've reread it. Kid's interruptions will do that I guess :D I didn't mean getting a degree is only about making $$$ - but as far as the argument that girls should get a degree just in case anything ever happened to their dh, or if someone is going to college solely for the sake of education.......imo, that can be a waste of money. It's the same reason I probably will never go back to school - I can get all of the education I want without paying the money. I didn't mean a degree for a career, or for whatever God wants to do with the degree, wasn't good. hopefully that makes a little more sense :)

[Sahamamama]

Well, where do I begin? When I was growing up, my mom usually worked part-time, at least a few hours a week, but she also kept a good home and taught us (my sister and I) to do the same. We were raised to believe that a husband and wife and their children are a TEAM, and that whatever it takes for them to build a life together, within God's design, that is what they do. I do remember my dad washing the dishes (sometimes), and maybe once my mom mowed the lawn, LOL, but otherwise their roles were pretty typical of that era (70s/80s).

 

For me, the dream was ALWAYS to get married, have children, stay at home and so on. But, for whatever reason, God did not bring my husband into my life until I was 37 years old. I tell you, it was a looooooong wait.

 

It is true that I am now at home with our daughters (3, 1, 1) -- almost the same ages as your two girls. I LOVE BEING HOME with them, most days :001_smile:. It truly is the desire of my heart to nurture and teach them, and to make a home with my husband that we can all enjoy and that will bless others. I, too, wonder about the emphasis for daughters -- should we focus on the "homemaking heart" that most of us have, or should we prepare them for the realities of "making a living," that most of us (myself included) have had to deal with.

 

I agree with those who have said "both," and here's why: Singleness is NOT just a time of waiting. I used to think it was, but over the years I began to see God's work being done through my life, and I knew he had called me to that path for that season. At times, it was hard and lonely and full of sacrifices, but I have NO REGRETS about my pre-David days! :001_smile: I also have NO REGRETS about my David days, LOL, and that's saying something!

 

I agree with the poster who stated that a full education allows a girl to participate in life, relationships, work, and homelife with dignity, with a greater sense of direction and optimism. For me, God lead me to go to Evangel University, so it was a Christian college (last two years, I transferred in from a state school). In that environment I grew, learned, and matured. Years later, I went to seminary to study Bible and theology at a deeper level. I have not regretted doing this, from a personal standpoint, although my degrees in Social Work and Bible are not exactly the most marketable! ;) Oh well, that's water under the bridge now.

 

My husband says he has the utmost respect for what I have done and who I am as a person. I think that a large part of this due to my schooling. Just this year, my husband, at the age of 38 will finally finish his BS -- something he started 20 years ago! He admires me for the fact that I started school and finished it, and doesn't for a moment think that it is "wasted" because I don't "use" it -- I do use, every day, because it is part of what shaped me.

 

I would say that if you have daughters or sisters who are not really academically-minded, that's okay, we aren't all book-geeks like I was. There are opportunities for young women to prepare themselves for life in every facet of life.

 

For academic-type learning to continue -- consider correspondence/online courses, library book discussion groups, self-study, reading lists, reading deeply on one subject, learning journals, Teaching Company resources, audiobooks, and volunteering.

 

For homemaking-type learning to continue -- consider releasing more responsibilities to older/more mature daughters, co-budgeting with a high school senior (do the books together), homemaking courses, volunteering at a historical farm, working in a food co-op, working overseas on a missions base (lots of cooking and cleaning there!), sewing projects for others, and learning skills through self-instruction manuals (Storey Publications has some boooklets)

 

For just plain old growing up, I think that there are many options -- college is only one, but still one I am glad I chose, along with graduate school. I also served overseas and in the States in missions roles, Sunday School, youth leadership, and women's group leadership. Again, no regrets. Now, God has called me to be home with my little ones.

 

Women live their lives in seasons. The best preparation for life is to trust God with all of it!

[Kimber]

Both, for sure. Proverbs 31.

 

Kimberly

[dirty ethel rackham]

:iagree:

[Katrina]

I've read a lot of the replies but not all. Just an FYI- I do have a different opinion than most of the replies I've read, so please don't be offended by what I'm about to post...it's meant to be in the spirit of discussion. :grouphug:

 

I am Christian, but I don't believe women are "supposed" to stay home. I believe in the value of a stay at home parent, and that was always my desire growing up, but I do so because A) I want to, B) It's my choice, C) My husband makes enough for us to afford to, and D) I do believe it's better for kids to have a full time parent at home.

 

I'd like both of my children (a son and daughter) to go to college so they have more options as adults, and also so they will be a more "complete" person. Especially if they choose to be a stay at home parent, I think it's even more important then.

 

On a personal note, I don't have a college degree. I wasted the years I should have been going to college, and it scares me that I've put myself in such a precarious siuation. If anything should happen to my dh, I have a good size inheritance coming from my grandfather that I could live on, plus we have a good insurance policy, but still! I don't want my dd learning from my example. I was in the process of going back to school when we decided to homeschool, and quit because it going to school and homeschooling was too much. Now that my kids are older, in about a year or so I plan on going back to school, mainly online and night classes. Even if I never have a career, I still want that college degree. It would have been nice if I went to college when I was young though.

[leigleigh_bird]

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on a woman's responsibility after the children are out of the house? Most women will have 20-40 more years of life. Our kids may have more than that. How should we (and our daughters) plan for that "season"?

[cricket1178]

I agree with all who have said both. I don't see that this is an either/or type situation. My dd wants to be a nurse. She'll have to go to college for that, but she also wants to be a wife and mother. I want her trained for both. She'll be great at both as well.:)

[Kelli in TN]

Women live their lives in seasons. The best preparation for life is to trust God with all of it!

 

Your entire post was absolutely wonderful.

[LizzyBee]

I mentioned going to college to be prepared to support oneself. I wanted to clarify that I don't think that's the only good reason for a woman to go to college. It's the reason that came to mind first because it was relevant in my own life, and because of the context of the op's question.

[SnowWhite]

My mom's friend says that her daughter will go to college, no questions asked, and she will not "allow" her to refuse to go to college. Not sure how that will work when her kid becomes an adult, but that's what she says.

 

This doesn't sound healthy or realistic, no matter what you believe about women's roles.

 

My mom believes that the Bible instructs women to be keepers of the home and wants to train my sister more in those matters. Not that she does not want her to go to college, but she wants her to have the option and not feel like she is being pushed either way. My sister wants to get married as soon as she can and have some kids. So my mom is including child development and family living into her schooling this year.

Smart lady! I like that she's encouraging her to keep her options open.

 

 

What do you guys think? The Bible does instruct women to be keepers of the home. Here's what I think.....if you graduate high school and have no prospective husband, you should probably go on to college. I mean, what else are you going to do? If you decide to get married shortly out of school, you can go to college or work up until you decide to have kids. Once having kids, I think that if at all possible, a woman should become a keeper of the home. I know there are circumstances that do not allow this....but I believe that the Bible does intend for women to take care of their homes and families while the man earns the money for the family.

 

ITA with you. At age 14, I was positive I would meet someone at age 15, begin "going steady" at 16, get engaged at 17 and marry at 18. Then I could have my first baby when I was 19! ROFL. That seems so naive when I put it in print. The Lord had other plans, and I did pursue a career in education, first through teaching a small Amish school, then by attending college... I met my dh when I was almost 25 and a sophomore. I'm glad my parents encouraged me to keep my options open by pursuing an "academic" college prep diploma, but also encouraging my Home Ec elective.

[SnowWhite]

My issue isn't the education itself. My beef with college for girls is sending them away from the family to become very independent single adults, not being under the protection of their father. I honestly don't think sending young girls away from home is an ideal situation. I think there needs to be authority in our lives to protect us from evil. Girls/Women are so easily deceived. I know I was when I left home to go to college, I was taken advantage of by employers and boyfriends alike. It was not a safe place and I don't want my daughters in the same compromising situations I was in as a young girl. Thankfullly, I met my future husband and he was the protection I needed.

 

I honestly think higher education can be really good for girls but I would like them to be under their father's protection and live at home while pursuing their education. :)

 

I also sing the praises of a commuter campus whenever it is logical, for both genders. That is the way I earned my degree.

[Michele B]

I met my DH while in grad school. I was teaching German of all things and he worked nearby and just liked taking language classes at the U. I want my girls to have domestic skills, but one of those skills is conversation! My husband and I talk about everything all the time. He tells people he loves talking to his brilliant wife! Of course he is more chivalrous than I am smart! A woman who is going to educate her children and keep her husband's attention (out of the bedroom and kitchen) should not be kept from college. Whether she has to go is a personal decision. I dropped out of grad school with 2 quarters to go. I have never looked back. It caused universal gasps of horror, but it was so right for me. I wanted to get married and start building a home and degrees became unimportant. In the german department, the feminists always decried that once women were only fit for Kitchen, Kids and Church (three K's in german). It was the high point of my grad school experience to tell the top fem prof that the three K's were all I cared about!! The look on her face!!!

 

Michele

[Ellie]

What do you guys think? The Bible does instruct women to be keepers of the home. Here's what I think.....if you graduate high school and have no prospective husband, you should probably go on to college. I mean, what else are you going to do? If you decide to get married shortly out of school, you can go to college or work up until you decide to have kids. Once having kids, I think that if at all possible, a woman should become a keeper of the home. I know there are circumstances that do not allow this....but I believe that the Bible does intend for women to take care of their homes and families while the man earns the money for the family.

 

What do you guys think about it? Guide our daughters towards college....or towards being a keeper of the home?

 

No, what the Bible says is that older women are supposed to teach the other women to be good keepers at home...not the same thing.

 

I think it's short-sighted for us to assume that our dds are going to marry men who will support them all of their lives (or that they'll marry at all). Think of the women who have ended up being alone, because their dh's died, or abandoned them, or were disabled and unable to work. Who supports the family then?

[clwcain]

I think it's short-sighted for us to assume that our dds are going to marry men who will support them all of their lives (or that they'll marry at all). Think of the women who have ended up being alone, because their dh's died, or abandoned them, or were disabled and unable to work. Who supports the family then?

 

There's also a third possibility that is not assumed in the original question: the call to perpetual celibacy. Some men and women aren't called to marriage, nor are they called to the priesthood/religious life.

 

I'll grant that I'm coming at the question from a Catholic perspective, but there are more than two possibilities. I know a couple of professed celibates. They're witness is very powerful, for God has called them to be in the world but not of the world in a very special way.

 

So, even aside from pragmatic concerns of support in the world, I reiterated that preparing for one course exclusively in preference to another is presumptuous on the part of the parents.

[Susie in CA]

Well, I am raising my sons to do both. I do not believe that women are the ones who should always be the keeper of the home. There are situations when the opposite makes sense.

 

Susie

[Susie in CA]

Both for BOTH genders.

 

My mom did not go to college, married and had 3 kids before she was 25yo. When we three kids were young my father had a long-term affair that my mom found out about after it had been going on for a year (my father was a youth pastor, so no, she never suspected it). She wanted to leave him but she had no skills and no way to support 3 small children. So she stayed and was miserable for another 15 years.

 

But she raised me from that moment on that I would go to college and be able to support myself so that I would never be stuck in a marriage like that. I have a master's degree and I am working on my doctorate right now and my husband knows I am married to him because I want to be not because I have to be.

 

I have friends who are in miserable marriages and their husbands take advantage of the fact that they cannot support themselves. That will NEVER happen to me. My husband helps out in the house every day without me asking him and is involved in homeschooling our children. We have a marriage of equals and we are happy that way.

 

I do not have daughters (yet) but I would never encourage my son to go to college and encourage my daughter not to. And I would not tell my daughter to go to college just to meet a husband. That is not why I went. I went to get an education and I did not meet my husband until I was 25yo.

 

Now which college I would send my daughter or son to is a whole different thread....:tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

I love your response!! I so agree! College is for education not to find a husband. Most definitly, everyone should be independent enough to decide for themselves what to do and not be forced in anyway.

 

Susie

[LisaKinVA]

My oldest dd (6) says when she grows up she wants to be a mommy. My response? In order to be the BEST mommy you can be, you have to be prepared to teach your children. This means learning as much as you can while you're at home.

 

I hope that all of my children will attend college. I don't expect them to -- but as long as their education is in my hands, they will all on a strong college-prep educational track.

 

No one knows what the future holds, so I want to make sure my boys know how to manage a house, cook and clean -- and my girls are no academic slouches, and are confident and prepared to care for themselves.

 

Personally, I always knew I was college-bound. But, like so many others, I expected that I'd meet someone in college and get married after we graduated. I didn't marry until I was 27. My parents had given up on my ever marrying -- my mom even told several of my friends this.:glare:

 

 

My cousin wanted to be a "wife and mother." Didn't care about college, or anything else. She married a man who didn't deserve her (a LOT of people expressed their concern). Despite voluminous pre-marriage promises, he refused to father children -- insisted she work, and divorced her 5 years later. 6 months later, on the re-bound, she marries a man with 2 children. She's never once said anything about "loving" the man (she detests the children), but the man promised to get a vasectomy reversal once they got married. It's been 18 months... now that she's "fixed up the house," she's miserable. No baby on the way, has two step children she can't stand -- and a man she doesn't love. It's just sooo sad.

[kellycbr]

Both for BOTH genders.

 

My mom did not go to college, married and had 3 kids before she was 25yo. When we three kids were young my father had a long-term affair that my mom found out about after it had been going on for a year (my father was a youth pastor, so no, she never suspected it). She wanted to leave him but she had no skills and no way to support 3 small children. So she stayed and was miserable for another 15 years.

 

But she raised me from that moment on that I would go to college and be able to support myself so that I would never be stuck in a marriage like that. I have a master's degree and I am working on my doctorate right now and my husband knows I am married to him because I want to be not because I have to be.

 

I have friends who are in miserable marriages and their husbands take advantage of the fact that they cannot support themselves. That will NEVER happen to me. My husband helps out in the house every day without me asking him and is involved in homeschooling our children. We have a marriage of equals and we are happy that way.

 

I do not have daughters (yet) but I would never encourage my son to go to college and encourage my daughter not to. And I would not tell my daughter to go to college just to meet a husband. That is not why I went. I went to get an education and I did not meet my husband until I was 25yo.

 

Now which college I would send my daughter or son to is a whole different thread....:tongue_smilie:

 

 

There is no down-side to a college education, not even debt. Preparing children for life means life-skills, as well as making them life long learners. Most people will work at one point or another, and giving your children more options is a wonderful gift. There are women doctors that I know who are able to bring home a large salary working 1 or 2 days a week. The rest of the time they're with their kids. What a great option to have!

[Heather in VA]

I can't see separating the two, my dd will be a woman who will have some sort of "home" no matter what that picture will eventually be. She needs to be equipped for that. She has the ultimate decision in going to college but she needs to be equipped for making that decision too. I will not train her to seek a husband above all else, I hope to instill enough in her to make good decisions about people, life and her pursuits.

 

Whether she becomes a stay-at-home mother or a career-minded woman, that is her decision. All I can do is prepare her to be able to make those decisions and how to facilitate her decision to the fullest.

 

Can I just say that reading the thoughts of going to college to find a husband reminds me of when women first started going to college? I don't feel a woman's main objective in life is to find a husband but to live a life that is God honoring.

:iagree:

[probablytracy]

It's a biblical calling! (And be different no one is doing it these days! Seriously!)

[brehon]

and, possibly, neither. As others have already pointed out, I don't think the two choices are mutually exclusive whether or not a girl attends a Christian college/university or non-Christian college/university (hmmm...seems like there're a lot of negatives in that sentence).

 

I think it is very important that any child have the education, confidence, and skills to support her- or himself. Attending university is one way of acquiring same. We simply don't know what the future will be and *I* will feel better knowing that my daughters (since we're talking specifically about girls here) are as prepared as I can help them be to take care of themselves and any children they might have, if the need arises.

 

Oops, duty calls...I'll try to continue this later...

[Renee in NC]

I always thought I would be a SAHM too, but what everyone needs to keep in mind is that your daughter can marry someone who says that he is dedicated to her being a SAHM, but that doesn't mean it will always be that way. At least in my situation my education allows me to earn more money in less time so that I can still hs my dc. If not for that, the lifestyle choices my dh has made (both in the past and now) would necessitate me working FT or MORE in order to meet basic needs.

 

Things aren't always what they seem when you are young.

[Donna A.]

Both! One does not exclude the other. In the progressive period early last century there was a social ideal built up around the concept of "the educated mother".

 

 

I haven't read all the responses because when I got to this one, I stopped. I like that... "The Educated Mother". :)

 

 

Having 3 dd's here, and me not having a college education but wishing many times over the years that I did, we're encouraging our girls to choose a field in which they can be both employable (if need be) and a helpmeet to their husbands. Our oldest is now interested in the field of nursing, and we're totally in support of that. Whether her dh is a truck driver, a doctor, a missionary, a janitor, a lawyer, or a soldier, her having a nursing background will serve them well.... even if she has children and becomes a SAHM.

[Donna A.]

My issue isn't the education itself. My beef with college for girls is sending them away from the family to become very independent single adults, not being under the protection of their father. I honestly don't think sending young girls away from home is an ideal situation. I think there needs to be authority in our lives to protect us from evil. Girls/Women are so easily deceived. I know I was when I left home to go to college, I was taken advantage of by employers and boyfriends alike. It was not a safe place and I don't want my daughters in the same compromising situations I was in as a young girl. Thankfullly, I met my future husband and he was the protection I needed.

 

I honestly think higher education can be really good for girls but I would like them to be under their father's protection and live at home while pursuing their education. :)

 

Okay, reading farther down the thread... I agree completely with Farmwife. Lord willing, if our dd does go into nursing, there will be an appropriate school close enough to home so that she can live with us. I know two different families who moved their entire families -- one within the same metro area and another halfway across the country -- just to live near where their oldest dd would be getting further training in her gifts, so the dd's could remain at home until they married. (One does Christian ballet dance, and the other does sign language.)

[Reya]

***Ummm....oops! I meant to post this on the general board LOL! Is there any way that someone can move it? I'm sorry!! ***

 

 

My mom and her friend sort of have an unspoken disagreement on this topic. They are both Christians and they both homeschool daughters...my little sister is 14 and my mom's friends daughter is 11. As Christians, should we prepare our daughters to be keepers of the home? Or college bound? I just thought it would be interesting to gather some perspective from you guys. My daughters are only one and four....so I dont have to worry about this quite as much until they get a bit older.

 

My mom's friend says that her daughter will go to college, no questions asked, and she will not "allow" her to refuse to go to college. Not sure how that will work when her kid becomes an adult, but that's what she says.

 

My mom believes that the Bible instructs women to be keepers of the home and wants to train my sister more in those matters. Not that she does not want her to go to college, but she wants her to have the option and not feel like she is being pushed either way. My sister wants to get married as soon as she can and have some kids. So my mom is including child development and family living into her schooling this year.

 

What do you guys think? The Bible does instruct women to be keepers of the home. Here's what I think.....if you graduate high school and have no prospective husband, you should probably go on to college. I mean, what else are you going to do? If you decide to get married shortly out of school, you can go to college or work up until you decide to have kids. Once having kids, I think that if at all possible, a woman should become a keeper of the home. I know there are circumstances that do not allow this....but I believe that the Bible does intend for women to take care of their homes and families while the man earns the money for the family.

 

What do you guys think about it? Guide our daughters towards college....or towards being a keeper of the home?

 

*snorts* Um. YEAH.

 

So, if your girls can A) run a profitable cottage industry from home while managing multiple employees, B) invest wisely in various businesses and trading ventures, and C) engage in substantial real estate investment and management from home to such a degree that your husband cuts back his hours to part-time work, then yes, you would be directly fulfilling the BIBLICAL example of an ideal wife. That's what Proverbs 31 is all about, folks. The household was an extremely important ECONOMIC UNIT OF PRODUCTION in ancient times, not just some warm-and-fuzzy place to come home to. It could either make the family a great deal of money or become a horribly managed expense. Today's "homes" are ONLY expenses because of the way we now divide work and home--if a woman has income, she now says "I work from home" when in ancient times, it would have been taken for granted that she was "working" in a financial beneficial way.

 

"Keeper of her home?" Well, the ideal well-to-do Biblical woman certainly made sure the slaves and servants kept the home in good order, but none of her OWN time was spent mopping floors, that's for sure. Very little of it was spent wiping bottoms, either--that's what the slaves and servants were for. The admonitions to women to not hang out in doorways and in squares were admonitions against neglecting their (very profitable!) work in order to gossip with other women and flirt with strange men. Their economic activities were very substantial, but like that of their husbands at the time, they were based around the home and (for women in the country) the land surrounding it. In fact, a NUMBER of the women mentioned in the New Testament and praised were active business women and semi-public figures--often the heads of their households because their husband had died. They were not called out for censure but LAUDED for their devotion to Christ and Christianity. (Mary Magdalene, anyone? She was a rich woman, likely a widow, who was almost certainly one of Jesus' main financial sponsors. Or how about Lydia, the dyer of purple cloth? There are plenty of other examples of women who took quite active roles FAR beyond the insipid Victorian image of a woman "keeping a home" as a separate sphere from that of real economic endeavors.) I strongly believe that the nostalgia about SAHMs who sew pretty dresses and bake fresh bread and make their husbands a lovely haven has little to nothing to do with anything Biblical and EVERYTHING to do with a lingering fondness for Victorian ideals of femininity. A woman who hires someone to keep her house clean for her is every bit as much a "keeper" as someone who cleans the grout with a toothbrush herself.

 

Do remember also that PAul says that the single state is BETTER than the married state. So which is unbliblical, preparing women to be self-supporting or sticking them on the road to a SAHM marriage at birth?

 

Saying that modern women, in an modern economy, should stay at home and "make it a haven" because "that's what God wants" is as silly as saying that every man who is not either a priest or a farmer is unbiblical.

 

No, college will NOT be optional for my children. ANY of them.

 

And yes, I work, too. From the home, as it happens to be.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Unless the girl has a dh lined up through courtship I would teach it all. prepare her to get a college degree. no one knows what life will bring and a degree will be worth having before you need it. knowing how to be a wife/mother is also important and should be taught. Heck, boys need to know how to cook, do laundry and fix holes in clothes :-)

 

I think it's great a girl wants to be the keeper of the home but I have friends who still haven't married...waiting on the right man and now it's almost too late to start a family. they didn't get the degree either. Life hasn't been easy or fun. We can't know what life will bring us. prepare the child to be successful in whatever happens. get the degree but know how to be a keeper of the home as well.

[Reya]

Girls/Women are so easily deceived. I know I was when I left home to go to college, I was taken advantage of by employers and boyfriends alike. It was not a safe place and I don't want my daughters in the same compromising situations I was in as a young girl.

 

 

If a woman is easily deceived, the fault is either hers or that of her parents. Women aren't naturally dumb or primed to be taken advantage of--unless that's what they're trained to. Overprotection is a great way of doing this. Almost EVERY woman will be alone in the world at some point. Women live longer than men, and employment often takes children away from parents. Teaching children wisdom--male or female--is surely better than trying to keep them safe by preventing them from ever coming into contact with the world--until it's too late, of course.

[Storm Bay]

If a woman is easily deceived, the fault is either hers or that of her parents. Women aren't naturally dumb or primed to be taken advantage of--unless that's what they're trained to. Overprotection is a great way of doing this. Almost EVERY woman will be alone in the world at some point. Women live longer than men, and employment often takes children away from parents. Teaching children wisdom--male or female--is surely better than trying to keep them safe by preventing them from ever coming into contact with the world--until it's too late, of course.

 

This is correct. The concept that a women are more easily deceived is based on a mistranslation and misunderstanding of one of the church epistles. To me saying that women are more easily deceived is tantamount to saying that women are less intelligent than men, which is incorrect.

[Reya]

Yes, there is the problem that girls are more likely to be physically attacked.

 

No, they aren't. Most violence is male-on-male. Boys are much more likely to be victims of violence than girls.

 

My DS will likely be starting college quite early. With another child, I might feel comfortable allowing him to live on campus or even out of state at a young age. With this one, though, NO--he's staying at home until he's AT LEAST 17. :-) He can drive or be driven to class.

[Reya]

This doesn't sound healthy or realistic, no matter what you believe about women's roles.

 

 

Do you require all your children to finish K?

 

How about 4th grade?

 

How about 8th?

 

How about high school?

 

Exactly how is requiring college less healthy and realistic than that?

 

I am 4th-generation college educated in my family. I also have some of the the LEAST formal education of my family, with a mere bachelor's and change. (Mom: PhD, Dad: MS, Grandmother: MS, Grandfather: JD, Great-Grandfather: MA, others had seminary degrees....) Just like it's beyond question to most families that their kids will at least finish 8th grade to reach minimum education, minimum education in our family is defined at the BS/BA level. In today's world, it's incredibly realistic!

[Kathy in MD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kathy in MD

Yes, there is the problem that girls are more likely to be physically attacked.

 

 

No, they aren't. Most violence is male-on-male. Boys are much more likely to be victims of violence than girls.

 

My DS will likely be starting college quite early. With another child, I might feel comfortable allowing him to live on campus or even out of state at a young age. With this one, though, NO--he's staying at home until he's AT LEAST 17. :-) He can drive or be driven to class.

 

 

(Smacking forehead) What was I thinking of???? I know better. I have a 14 yo son!

 

I should have stated s**ually attacked, even though it seems that there are more boys falling under this category than we used to realize.

[dragons in the flower bed]

At age 14, I was positive I would meet someone at age 15, begin "going steady" at 16, get engaged at 17 and marry at 18. Then I could have my first baby when I was 19!

 

Hey, Jennifer, that's what I did. Here's how the story ends. At 20, my husband became a Christian and "realized" the Bible authorized him to abuse me. At 21, I had a divorce. At 22, I had a three-year-old, a one-year-old, no place to live, and wasn't qualified for anything except starter jobs.

 

This could happen to anyone, of any gender. Being responsible for little kids and not being able to support oneself is being vulnerable. The Talmud requires Jewish parents to teach their children Torah, to swim, and an income producing skill, and then they can stop parenting them. I intend to do everything in my power to be sure my sons can produce enough income to support children. I hope to have accomplished this before they're legally adults. God knows what kind of mistakes they might make once they're in the world. An income producing skill is the best defense I can give them (after wisdom, of course). It doesn't mean college, since college isn't a very cost- or time-efficient way to get such a skill. But what's the harm in requiring them to get certification as an Apple repair technician before they're 18?

[SnowWhite]

Rose, that sickens me. How anyone can use the Bible to authorize themselves to do *anything* of that nature mystifies me.

 

My point was that I appreciated my parents' encouraging me to keep my options open and not plan on a marriage that might or might not happen.

[SnowWhite]

Do you require all your children to finish K?

 

How about 4th grade?

 

How about 8th?

 

How about high school?

 

Exactly how is requiring college less healthy and realistic than that?

 

I am 4th-generation college educated in my family. I also have some of the the LEAST formal education of my family, with a mere bachelor's and change. (Mom: PhD, Dad: MS, Grandmother: MS, Grandfather: JD, Great-Grandfather: MA, others had seminary degrees....) Just like it's beyond question to most families that their kids will at least finish 8th grade to reach minimum education, minimum education in our family is defined at the BS/BA level. In today's world, it's incredibly realistic!

 

I'm also a 4th generation college educated woman, WITH a master's degree. However, getting that was my own choice. The part that didn't seem realistic to me was the not "ALLOWING" an adult person to choose a route other than college. IMNSHO anybody who believes they can control a 19-23 year old adult is unrealistic. I also believe it's an unhealthy attitude. I have two brothers who are very prosperous construction interior contractors. Expecting them to go to college would have been counterproductive.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Rose, that sickens me. How anyone can use the Bible to authorize themselves to do *anything* of that nature mystifies me.

 

My point was that I appreciated my parents' encouraging me to keep my options open and not plan on a marriage that might or might not happen.

 

I know, I didn't mean to sound harsh towards you. I didn't post my experience earlier in this thread because . . . because how much of my interesting life do I want to share on one forum, kwim? But it bothers me that girls fantasize about doing stuff like that, and when I saw your post with it's coincidentally meaningful timeline, I decided I don't care if I'm airing dirty laundry. Because it's not even a safe thing to want. We are all naturally inclined to want love, and someone to trust and to take care of us. Let us encourage our girls to want college, so they'll be safer. Let's not fantasize about throwing ourselves off bridges and seeing angels come to catch us.

 

(Oh, and a mental illness helped him use the Bible that way. I know it's not a Christian thing.)

[Reya]

Quote:

I should have stated s**ually attacked, even though it seems that there are more boys falling under this category than we used to realize.

 

I'm not sure what the statistics on that are, but I'm sure you're right!

 

True stranger rape is very rare, though, for either gender. The most common way to get raped for females, other than to be assaulted by a relative or family friend, is very often after putting oneself in an extremely bad situation. For example, probably the #1 way on college campuses is to get completely drunk at a party. We have a great paranoia of rape because of its social psychological impact, but for most women who make reasonably rational decisions, the chances of attack are very low and are scarcely lowered further by living at home.

[Reya]

I'm also a 4th generation college educated woman, WITH a master's degree. However, getting that was my own choice. The part that didn't seem realistic to me was the not "ALLOWING" an adult person to choose a route other than college. IMNSHO anybody who believes they can control a 19-23 year old adult is unrealistic. I also believe it's an unhealthy attitude. I have two brothers who are very prosperous construction interior contractors. Expecting them to go to college would have been counterproductive.

 

Would it have been counterproductive? My cousin is majoring in construction management. Having that start will allow her to be a part of major projects from the very beginning, giving her lots of great experience without having to work her way up from the bottom! And she won't have to try to get financing for starting up a small business she's unfamiliar with. She'll have worked for larger firms and will understand financing and business practices before she sets out on her own.

 

If my child were seriously called to a certain trade, I'd be okay with that. I'd rather have an electrician in the family than an electrical engineering tech, that's for sure! :-) With up to 5 years' apprenticeship, there's a lot in common between the better trades and college in terms of time investment, anyhow.

 

I don't think most 18-year-olds are anywhere near adult in decision-making. Brains don't fully mature until the early 20s. So I have no problem dictating that they at least A) stay in formal schooling until they are 18, and B) get at least a bachelor's unless they have a darned good reason not to.

[Reya]

Oh, and I want to clarify that I don't think that women who stay at home and have no income are WRONG. But they are unbiblical in the sense that there is really no Biblical model for this lifestyle. In today's world, it's incredibly difficult to accomplish things that were the norm for certain groups in the past. Our lucky lady of Proverbs 31 is in the upper 2% of her society--in a society in which the poor were much, much poorer than they are now! That's why she had a bevy of slaves to weave for domestic consumption and production, both. *g* That's why she also certainly had at least one nursemaid and a cook, too, as well as owning lots of land and male slaves to oversee her properties.

 

Far more of us have to wipe noses and rears in the past, but far more of us are also independent householders, too. It just means that certain patterns of life are pretty darned impractical to model oneself on too closely--so we must make decisions. But the fact remains that the woman who works outside of the physical confines of the house, sends her kids off to school, and has a nanny and a housekeeper who keep the kids and house immaculate is rather closer to the ideal of Proverbs 31 than the SAHM who makes all her children's clothes with her own hands. The SAHM absolutely has a right to her decision, made with her husband. There are a lot of things to be said for raising and teaching your children yourself! (If I didn't think so, I wouldn't be doing it!) But it shouldn't be idealized by modern mis-readings of ancient texts, Biblical or otherwise. Handicrafts are hobbies (with a very few exceptions, those being the women who make and save substantial money from them), not morally uplifting womanly duties imposed by God. I like cross stitching as well as the next woman--and crocheting, and sewing, if I had the time--but I'm not going to pretend for one moment that these activities are, in today's world, more than past-times. They do not make me a better "keeper of my home" by any stretch of the imagination. Neither does making almost all our meals from scratch, though I do that, too. Remember that the woman of Proverbs brings her food in from afar (and has her cook make it, no doubt). Nutritious preprepared food would be every bit as good morally as anything I make! Manual labor does not glorify tasks and make them more spiritual. Labor because you want to or you have to, not because it makes you "better". Goals are what matter. Whether you get there by sweating for ten hours or by writing a check with money you made some other way scarcely makes a difference!

[melissel]

If a woman is easily deceived, the fault is either hers or that of her parents. Women aren't naturally dumb or primed to be taken advantage of--unless that's what they're trained to. Overprotection is a great way of doing this. Almost EVERY woman will be alone in the world at some point. Women live longer than men, and employment often takes children away from parents. Teaching children wisdom--male or female--is surely better than trying to keep them safe by preventing them from ever coming into contact with the world--until it's too late, of course.

 

This is correct. The concept that a women are more easily deceived is based on a mistranslation and misunderstanding of one of the church epistles. To me saying that women are more easily deceived is tantamount to saying that women are less intelligent than men, which is incorrect.

 

Thank you both for saying it. I found that concept very disturbing.

[SnowWhite]

I don't think most 18-year-olds are anywhere near adult in decision-making. Brains don't fully mature until the early 20s. So I have no problem dictating that they at least A) stay in formal schooling until they are 18, and B) get at least a bachelor's unless they have a darned good reason not to.

 

I wish you the best of success in your "dictating" (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic here). The 19 to 24 year old people of my acquaintance don't take kindly to this kind of dictation. It can be the cause of elopements, college drop-outs and family estrangements. Hopefully it won't in your case.

[sunflowerlady]

Coming in late here. My main goal for dd is for her to be a keeper at home, helpmeet and all around great homeschool mom to my grandchildren.

 

College is a possibility, but we will encourge Christian college. I am not at all raising her to be career driven/oriented.

[Reya]

I wish you the best of success in your "dictating" (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic here). The 19 to 24 year old people of my acquaintance don't take kindly to this kind of dictation. It can be the cause of elopements, college drop-outs and family estrangements. Hopefully it won't in your case.

 

Depends on whether you still have unresolved issues from the preschool years. I've yet to be surprised by a single rebellion I've seen, no matter how astonished the parents themselves were. (That includes the kids with extremely authoritarian parents who seemed to conform to their parents' stifling requirements up until they left home.)

 

Some could just as easily say that 14-y-o people of their acquaintance don't take kindly to that kind of dictation. Or 12-y-os. I've met lots of people who DO say that--who insist that their kids are either "grown up" or "unmanageable" or both once they reach the pre-teen years!

 

I'm unreasonable enough that I'm not even letting my kids become true specialists until college--and I'd prefer that they wait until they are 18! My 5-y-o might believe with all his heart that math and science are his future, but as the adult, I believe he should experience other areas as fully as possible, as well, and I don't let him do extra math at the expense of, say, reading. If he really will end up in math/science, I'll be thrilled, but I'm not letting him make that decision to the exclusion of others yet.

[ThelmaLou]

Both!

 

I've watched too many of my homeschooling friends who did not attend college struggle with college prep high school homeschool with their children. They tend to end up having to outsource more classes and earlier, and they're more chronically stressed/worried about how they're going to teach their children higher math or science or composition, etc.

 

JMHO!

 

Do you think the reason they outsource more/earlier is primarily because they don't have a college education? My guess would be "no" in most instances. I have a degree in English and my husband has a Math degree, but my 13 ds will be taking both Lit. and Algebra next year in a co-op setting. I'll be juggling the studies of my four younger kids. His main teaching in those two courses will be directed by the co-op teachers, but I'll still be overseeing and helping with studies that take place in between class time. In my circles, I just don't see a correlation between the mom's level of education and whether/when the parents decide to "farm out" some of their kids' classes.

 

Also, I'm so glad for my college education, but even if I had not earned a degree, I think I still would have been well equipped to teach my kiddos. My certification was in secondary English, and I marvel at how useless most of the information I received really was. I can see how not having a degree might have made me *feel* insecure about being able to teach well, but in retrospect, that fear would not have been founded in reality. Some of the most rigorous homeschoolers I know are not college educated and have produced brilliant students, while many folks who are college educated are still nervous and insecure about the quality of education they're giving their kids. I just think it can really go either way.

[Holly IN]

both...

 

however it all depends...There are many successful people that do not have a college degree. Dh and I haven't talked about this yet. We are very leary about colleges with what is going on in them. If she is wanting a career then we will tell her that it is very hard to have a career and a family. We will be honest with her to say that it is possible she may not have a family due to having a career. She can't do both. It is her decision not mine. However we will encourage her to strive to be a keeper of the home as the main focus. If she wants to go to college then it will be her choice. I would hope that she would attend college to get at least an associates degree in an area that would be easy for her to have a family for ex: nursing or any medical type jobs where she can possibly work at nights. If I had stayed in the field of my choosing dh and I would be better off financially. I work at nights cleaning a local church. It is not a job I like but I have to work right now. If I had stayed in the medical field I would be working in the radiology dept of a local hospital.

 

You never know where your daughter is headed. You never know if she will get married. I wouldn't want to support her when she is 40 years old. What if she became a widow at a young age with children needing support? There are too many variables and I believe it is much better to be prepared for things. Proverbs 31 woman did work but worked for herself. Biblically there is nothing wrong with a woman working as long as she is NOT neglecting her duties as a wife or mother.

 

I homeschool my kids and work a job at nights. Do I like it? No! but it is something that is necessary right now. Did I want a job working nights? No! but it is something that is necessary right now. Does this mean I do not trust God? No! I trust him completly. He also gave us a brain and the means.

 

My main issue with the OP mother's friend is stating "will not allow her daughter to refuse college"...This is her daugther's decision not the mom's.

She can encourage her to go that route but to state "not allow" do not sit well with me.

 

Encouragement works better and open mind works better as well.

 

My food for thought!!

 

Holly

[Holly IN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by teachmom3

Both!

 

I've watched too many of my homeschooling friends who did not attend college struggle with college prep high school homeschool with their children. They tend to end up having to outsource more classes and earlier, and they're more chronically stressed/worried about how they're going to teach their children higher math or science or composition, etc.

 

JMHO!

Quote:

 

I had to comment on this. I do not know where this lady's post is so I copied and paste it.

 

Here is my opinion...I have friends who have master's degree in colleges who homeschool their kids. They are outsourcing high school classes through community colleges or homeschool classes through a homeschool group with credentialed teachers. I have an Associates degree in computers and I am very comfortable with teaching high school classes with no problem. I am not stressed out or worried about it. I am worried about labs though in respect to peer inteaction of discussing labs and that is it. So I am seeing a totally flip side to this than teachmom3 saw.

 

Holly

[Donna A.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by teachmom3

Both!

 

I've watched too many of my homeschooling friends who did not attend college struggle with college prep high school homeschool with their children. They tend to end up having to outsource more classes and earlier, and they're more chronically stressed/worried about how they're going to teach their children higher math or science or composition, etc.

 

JMHO!

Quote:

 

I had to comment on this. I do not know where this lady's post is so I copied and paste it.

 

Here is my opinion...I have friends who have master's degree in colleges who homeschool their kids. They are outsourcing high school classes through community colleges or homeschool classes through a homeschool group with credentialed teachers. I have an Associates degree in computers and I am very comfortable with teaching high school classes with no problem. I am not stressed out or worried about it. I am worried about labs though in respect to peer inteaction of discussing labs and that is it. So I am seeing a totally flip side to this than teachmom3 saw.

 

Holly

 

Yep. Several of our homeschooling friends have college degrees but still choose to outsource some of their high schoolers' classes, and they do so for a variety of reasons. Whether or not a parent is "educated" should be no indication of how one chooses to go about handling their particular situation... from an observer's POV, I mean. We need to be careful not to be judgmental and arrogant about what we see others doing and why WE think they're doing it. Especially if we don't have children of our own at that stage of life yet.

 

Since this thread was directed toward Christians, how about some scripture discussion? What I'm mostly seeing referenced is Proverbs 31, but if we back up and read those verses in context, we see that the "Proverbs 31 woman" wasn't even a *real* woman. King Lemuel had apparently spent the night carousing or some such thing with an ungodly woman, so his mother was reprimanding him and explaining what sorts of things he ought to be looking for in a woman, as well as addressing his own character and the hazards of drinking too much, what it would do to his reputation, and the kind of judgment and speech that a king (not queen) ought to have. This included seeking a wife that would bring him a good reputation and honor... but the discussion wasn't so much about a woman and her ability to make money (which is what it sounds like this thread has turned into), but the man's wisdom in choosing a wife. Yes, it then goes on to describe many different virtues a godly woman ought to have, but among them is humility and grace... not just income potential and independence. Proverbs 31 isn't a passage on economics or political correctness.

 

Could she have been independent? Possibly, but that wasn't the point. In fact, culturally, a woman wasn't expected to be independent. Women were always protected by a man, if not her own dh (should she be single or widowed), then her father, brother, BIL, or other male "protector", usually a relative. (The story of Ruth, Naomi, and Boaz is a good example.)

 

There are far more examples of what a godly woman looked like in scripture -- women with real names and families -- than just the Prov. 31 woman, who either wasn't *real* (but was just an example of what the "ideal" might look like for the sake of King Lemuel, who may have had a drinking problem according to context), or was nameless and therefore not significant in the Bigger Picture. It was a mama's heart talking to her wayward son.

[Heather in Neverland]

both...

 

If she is wanting a career then we will tell her that it is very hard to have a career and a family. We will be honest with her to say that it is possible she may not have a family due to having a career. She can't do both.

Holly

 

I disagree. I know plenty of women who do both. I am one of them.

[melissel]

I disagree. I know plenty of women who do both. I am one of them.

 

As am I. It's certainly not easy, but lots of moms do it--some out of necessity, and some out of desire.