The Child-Centered Household

[Grammar Stage Parent]

My friend has two sons, 7 and 10, who are unable to spend the summer at home because the 12-year old girl next door has been bullying them. The older boy in particular is quite shy and is terrifed of her.

 

The mother of this girl refuses to discipline her on the grounds that their family is following "child-centered" principles (her term), and so follows a strict policy of non-intervention in disputes which her daughter initiates (I have no idea what she would do if her daughter were attacked).

 

I grew up in a middle-class neighbourhood, but around the corner was a rougher area. There were a few households that wouldn't do anything about their juvenile delinquents, but the fathers, predictably, were drunks or never around.

 

The mother of this girl, by contrast, is a psychotherapist, who practices a form of therapy known as "siding with the patient" (ie. she cries with them during sessions). Houses in this neighbourhood typically sell for $3 to 5 million, and I am not tempted to compare her household to the negligent ones I have just mentioned. There seems to be something else at work here than someone too drunk to pay attention to child-rearing.

 

I haven't met the woman, but I believe my friend's account of the story. She's a Phd in psychology and performs neurological research, I'm inclined to believe she at least has a handle on where this woman is coming from.

 

Does anyone else have experience in dealing with people following a "child-centered" philosophy in child-rearing?

___________________________________

Daughter: 10; Singapore Primary Mathematics 4B; Story of the World Level 1; Writing Strands 4; Spelling Workout Level E; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE4; FLL 4; Mindbenders

 

Son: 7: Writing with Ease 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 2A; general handwriting practice and reading practice; Spelling Workout Level C; SOTW 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

[AnnaM]

I have known 2 or 3 families who follow similar philosophies. Their children were utter and complete brats and were not a joy to be around. At all. The parents really believed that one day their children would suddenly "get it" and start to behave on their own. They are so far sorely mistaken.

[yellowperch]

Love your answer, wendyk. I was about to try to explain what I know of this approach, but your answer is perfect.

[Grammar Stage Parent]

It wasn't a good time to ask what kind of bullying, but since my friend spends all day long with those who have suffered brain damage and memory loss, I think she's pretty adept at identifying the potential for trauma.

 

Do these child-centered people have a seminal text that expresses their philosophy? Is it a movement within psychology or education or some other intellectual discipline? I wondered if it had some connection with "unschooling".

 

What I find most disturbing about this woman is that police generally know how to deal with drunks and negligent parents. Because this woman is a licensed therapist, I suspect that she's got resources behind her if anyone, including law enforcement, tries to confront her about her psychopath in training.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Grammar Stage Parent

[Crimson Wife]

I have known 2 or 3 families who follow similar philosophies. Their children were utter and complete brats and were not a joy to be around. At all. The parents really believed that one day their children would suddenly "get it" and start to behave on their own. They are so far sorely mistaken.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Except it's sadly far more than 2 or 3 families I know who fit this description.

 

I probably ought to shut up on the subject for today because I've already gotten attacked on one thread for suggesting that strong-willed children need firm parental guidance rather than indulging of their whims...:glare:

[Spryte]

I know of one family taking this approach. I don't know them well, as our parenting styles aren't even in the same ballpark. 2 older kids, one younger. The older kids (young adults) have struggled to find their way in an adult world. The young man just joined them military, and seems to be getting a handle on his life, despite very little support from family. The young lady is simply a disaster, very little focus, very flighty, very self-centered. Some guidance from her family would probably help her find a path for her life, but for now she is floundering. The youngest child is only 14. She recently placed a baby for adoption. (Where is the smiley face icon of for complete and utter dismay?) It is a sad, sad situation. Those kids *need* parents who are involved in their lives, but the parents plan to continue their hands-off policy. They are professionals, they live in a nice neighborhood, and on the surface they seem very normal. This is their parenting choice. I don't understand it, and fail to see how it is helping their kids develop into productive, caring adults.

 

I'm sorry your friend's children are being bullied. And hope that there is a way to support them through a trying time in their lives.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

What sort of bullying? If the girl is physically or verbally attacking the children and the parents don't want to handle it then I would call the police and report that my children were being harassed by a neighbor. That seems like the perfect "natural" consequence (which will hopefully work on both the parent and the child).

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[laundrycrisis]

I have known 2 or 3 families who follow similar philosophies. Their children were utter and complete brats and were not a joy to be around. At all. The parents really believed that one day their children would suddenly "get it" and start to behave on their own. They are so far sorely mistaken.

 

:iagree: I have known families that work this way.

 

And they call it "radical unschooling"..... but it goes far beyond an approach to education. They also call it "consensual parenting" and "non-coercive parenting". Basically the parents don't believe in ever "pulling rank" on the kids.

 

I have witnessed such a mother defend her child's outright bullying by saying to the bullied child, "he said he was going to hit you...maybe next time you will listen to him." Yeah.

[8filltheheart]

Eustace Scrubb

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

My friend has two sons, 7 and 10, who are unable to spend the summer at home because the 12-year old girl next door has been bullying them. The older boy in particular is quite shy and is terrifed of her.

 

 

What I find most disturbing about this woman is that police generally know how to deal with drunks and negligent parents. Because this woman is a licensed therapist, I suspect that she's got resources behind her if anyone, including law enforcement, tries to confront her about her psychopath in training.

 

 

Ok hold on a minute. The neighbors kids can not be at their own house because of the amount of bullying this child is doing to them?

 

I don't care what back up about her "philosophies" that's harassment. Where are the neighbors kids? You better believe the mother of those poor kids better get the authorities involved. Your child can not harass another to the point they need to be sent away for the summer to be safe no matter what your child rearing philosophies are or what professional title you hold.

 

 

Am I missing something??

[HeidiKC]

What I find most disturbing about this woman is that police generally know how to deal with drunks and negligent parents. Because this woman is a licensed therapist, I suspect that she's got resources behind her if anyone, including law enforcement, tries to confront her about her psychopath in training.

 

I don't know. If the girl is actually physically hurting the kids, I'd think the police would respond, even if it meant just giving a warning. No one wants the police called on their child and it might freak her out a bit.

 

I have never heard of this child-rearing philosophy. I can see not getting involved in kids' squabbles, but this sounds a bit more than that. And not doing her child any favors by teaching her appropriate ways to handle her anger.

 

And this doesn't have anything to do with the problem...but it kind of made me chuckle to picture this woman spending her day crying at the office with a string of people all day long. I know it isn't funny, but it just kind of tickled my funny-bone today. What an emotional mess I think I'd be if that's how I spent my days - and spent and exhausted. And all stuffed up. And puffy.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Why is this child near the others. They have their own homes. I'd call the police for trespass, harassment or whatever fit. IF I hadn't, well, it wouldn't be pretty...

[Wheres Toto]

I have witnessed such a mother defend her child's outright bullying by saying to the bullied child, "he said he was going to hit you...maybe next time you will listen to him." Yeah.

 

If the bullied child was mine, I'd look right at that mother and tell here - "I'm about to hit you, since I'm warning you first I guess it's not assault."

 

I don't understand how the kids can't be at home. I guess if they don't have a fenced backyard to play in it can be hard to stay away from an immediate neighbor but can't they play in the house? And then mom (or whoever is watching them while mom works) take them to parks to play outside?

[Grammar Stage Parent]

I'll grant you it seems incredible that the kids have to be sent away for the summer and that the cops, to my knowledge, haven't been called. Again, I suspect that this woman has already had some run-ins elsewhere (her child does appear to go to a regular school, though not sure if it's public or private), and has been able to resist whatever pressure was placed on her to discipline.

 

Again, I would be very interested in knowing if there is some kind of book or website where these people get together and trade ideas/strategies/plans of criminal intent and negligence. Judging from what others have written here, this movement does appear to be gaining ground with professional, educated people.

 

If professional, educated people are backing this, I'm not so sure police and law courts and child welfare agencies are well-prepared to handle this kind of problem.

[butterflymommy]

I wondered if it had some connection with "unschooling".

 

I have been wondering about this lately. When I first started reading about homeschooling (about 14-15 years ago) "unschooling" was defined, more or less, as "learning in an unconentional manner." I.e.-- embarking on projects and trips instead of doing seatwork, giving up textbooks for "real life" learning... that sort of thing. There was a story back then about a boy whose dad drove him across the country to study US geography.

 

But it seems that "unschooling" somehow morphed into a fear of putting any expectations or limits on your child for fear of somehow damaging their psyche or "love of learning." I have encountered moms who will not put ANY restrictions on their kids for fear of "not respecting their [the child's] autonomy" -- so they can play video games all day, dress however they want, not learn math, watch cartoons all day... no limits at all. I just don't see how this is a good thing for anyone involved?

 

I am sometimes drawn to the first concept of unschooling (unconventional learning) but not the latter (letting your child be emperor). I just don't know which is the "real" unschooling?

[Ellie]

Ok hold on a minute. The neighbors kids can not be at their own house because of the amount of bullying this child is doing to them?

 

I don't care what back up about her "philosophies" that's harassment. Where are the neighbors kids? You better believe the mother of those poor kids better get the authorities involved. Your child can not harass another to the point they need to be sent away for the summer to be safe no matter what your child rearing philosophies are or what professional title you hold.

 

 

Am I missing something??

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[smillard00]

I think there have been forms of this sort of parenting philosophy for quite a while--at least since the '70s, I would guess. (Does anyone else remember transactional analysis and "TA for Tots?") And I think if it were really turning out great adults, it would have caught on a little more.

 

If a neighbor child were doing this to my children, I would first make sure a good fence was in place between the two yards so the child would have no problem recognizing when she was trespassing on our property. Secondly, I would send a letter to the parents informing them that their child's bullying is not tolerated on our property and letting them know that the third step will be a restraining order and/or police involvement. If they won't stop their daughter, then I will find someone who will. There is no excuse for children not to feel safe in their own home. So sad...

 

Oh, and it is always a good idea to document document document.

[momma aimee]

My friend has two sons, 7 and 10, who are unable to spend the summer at home because the 12-year old girl next door has been bullying them. The older boy in particular is quite shy and is terrifed of her.

 

The mother of this girl refuses to discipline her on the grounds that their family is following "child-centered" principles (her term), and so follows a strict policy of non-intervention in disputes which her daughter initiates (I have no idea what she would do if her daughter were attacked).

 

I grew up in a middle-class neighbourhood, but around the corner was a rougher area. There were a few households that wouldn't do anything about their juvenile delinquents, but the fathers, predictably, were drunks or never around.

 

The mother of this girl, by contrast, is a psychotherapist, who practices a form of therapy known as "siding with the patient" (ie. she cries with them during sessions). Houses in this neighbourhood typically sell for $3 to 5 million, and I am not tempted to compare her household to the negligent ones I have just mentioned. There seems to be something else at work here than someone too drunk to pay attention to child-rearing.

 

I haven't met the woman, but I believe my friend's account of the story. She's a Phd in psychology and performs neurological research, I'm inclined to believe she at least has a handle on where this woman is coming from.

 

Does anyone else have experience in dealing with people following a "child-centered" philosophy in child-rearing?

___________________________________

Daughter: 10; Singapore Primary Mathematics 4B; Story of the World Level 1; Writing Strands 4; Spelling Workout Level E; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE4; FLL 4; Mindbenders

 

Son: 7: Writing with Ease 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 2A; general handwriting practice and reading practice; Spelling Workout Level C; SOTW 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

 

sounds like classical lazy parenting to me -- not Willing to go to the effort. phrase it any Way you vWant it boils doWn to -- too busy With my job / life to deal With or parent my child .... the the parent drunk or at Work the end result is the same.

 

If I Was your freind I'd call the cops on the 12 yo girl. each and every time anything happens.

 

maybe the mom Will care to 'deal With' family court.

[lorrainejmc]

I have been wondering about this lately. When I first started reading about homeschooling (about 14-15 years ago) "unschooling" was defined, more or less, as "learning in an unconentional manner." I.e.-- embarking on projects and trips instead of doing seatwork, giving up textbooks for "real life" learning... that sort of thing. There was a story back then about a boy whose dad drove him across the country to study US geography.

 

But it seems that "unschooling" somehow morphed into a fear of putting any expectations or limits on your child for fear of somehow damaging their psyche or "love of learning." I have encountered moms who will not put ANY restrictions on their kids for fear of "not respecting their [the child's] autonomy" -- so they can play video games all day, dress however they want, not learn math, watch cartoons all day... no limits at all. I just don't see how this is a good thing for anyone involved?

 

I am sometimes drawn to the first concept of unschooling (unconventional learning) but not the latter (letting your child be emperor). I just don't know which is the "real" unschooling?

 

My understanding is that regular unschooling is delight or child led learning which may or may not use similar materials to regular homeschoolers, the difference being that the child chooses what to learn and the parent is the facilitator, suggesting materials and activities. Then there is radical unschooling, which is more of a child rearing philosophy. These families seem to have the hands off approach described by the OP.

Edited August 8, 2011 by lorrainejmc

[NCMom]

It used to be called "Taking Children Seriously" and basically the parent never, ever imposes their will on the child.

 

Radical unschoolers may or may not subscribe to this. They never impose educationally and may never impose otherwise; I've seen it both ways, though the movement or the definitions may have changed.

 

It's interesting.

 

Georgia

[Mommy22alyns]

 

And they call it "radical unschooling"..... but it goes far beyond an approach to education. They also call it "consensual parenting" and "non-coercive parenting". Basically the parents don't believe in ever "pulling rank" on the kids.

 

 

 

:iagree: That sounds like what I was reading at the Radical Unschooling boards. Very :001_huh:.

[JoyfullyNoisy]

What a terrible situation. Along with other PPs, I don't understand why your friend's children can't be at home. Is there not an adult at home with them all day?

 

I've only known one family that is this hands off as far as discipline goes. But in some ways their lifestyle is the opposite. They're not as highly educated, certainly far from wealthy, and there are 7 (or 8?) children in the home. The father subscribes to the belief that the raising, educating, feeding, clothing, etc. of the children is the responsibility of the mother. She's exhausted and hands off about disciplining conflict/social behavior, however, they are extremely strict in other respects.

One of their sons once deliberately sprayed sunscreen in my four year old's eyes. When I confronted the father about it he shrugged and said "boys will be boys!". grrr... mommy tiger really wanted to scratch back, but that wouldn't have helped me prove my point.

 

As one previous comment suggested, perhaps it's laziness with an excuse.

 

To answer your specific question, no, I have not personally come across a written (or otherwise) philosophy this type subscribes to.

[Crimson Wife]

"Non-coercive parenting" your "spirited" children. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Mercy_Me]

I'll grant you it seems incredible that the kids have to be sent away for the summer and that the cops, to my knowledge, haven't been called. Again, I suspect that this woman has already had some run-ins elsewhere (her child does appear to go to a regular school, though not sure if it's public or private), and has been able to resist whatever pressure was placed on her to discipline.

 

Again, I would be very interested in knowing if there is some kind of book or website where these people get together and trade ideas/strategies/plans of criminal intent and negligence. Judging from what others have written here, this movement does appear to be gaining ground with professional, educated people.

 

If professional, educated people are backing this, I'm not so sure police and law courts and child welfare agencies are well-prepared to handle this kind of problem.

 

When you say "sent away", do you mean they have to be put in day care while mom and dad work, as opposed to staying home alone?

[spaceman]

I'm also confused about what is meant by being "sent away" and the type of bullying. This information would be helpful.

 

I think this is a negative manifestation of the "consensual living" type parenting. That type of parenting, in my opinion, needs parents, caregivers, and siblings with strong boundaries, since boundaries become the limiting factor. I also think this style of parenting has a huge learning curve and can be messed up fairly easily by well meaning, educated parents.

 

At any rate, I do think warning the child and/or the parents about calling the cops and then doing it will not only help solve the problem...but actually be in line with the parenting philosophy.

 

Check out Naomi Aldert as an expert with a similar philosophy. I remember taking two steps back from her ideas after hearing she let other Resturaunt customers tell her children when they were getting too loud. This seems disrespectful to the other customers, to me. (and many more examples, such as not getting her kids to brush their teeth, etc.)

[Mrs Twain]

If we had neighbors like that who wouldn't do the right thing (as in control their child), I would either tell them in person or write them a letter that if their child talks to or bothers my children one more time, I am going to report it to the police and/or pursue the situation in court.

 

As others have said, most people respond if the police get involved or a lawsuit may be pending.

 

I had a neighbors who wouldn't control their rottweiler, which was regularly coming into our yard and nipping at and knocking our children to the ground. I had to call animal control, after which an officer came to their house and explained the law, including consequences for breaking the law. Since then, my neighbors have been excellent at controlling their dog, and we haven't had any further problems. It is not fun to have to get the police or lawyers involved, but sometimes there is no other way.

[Grammar Stage Parent]

By "sent away", I mean that she chose to let the boys spend the summer in the countryside with their grandmother. It's a lovely area, in any case. They do have a fence, but I don't know the circumstances of their earlier encounters.

 

I don't know how responsive the police are in your area, they're sure not in ours, but I think the point my friend is making is that kids can do a lot of damage to each other without breaking any laws.

 

I had been under the impression that unschoolers like John Holt's and Ivan Illyich's books. Is there a manifesto of "radical unschooling"?

 

The unschoolers I have encountered always insist that children raised under this approach "turn out just fine". Given their opposition to systematic measurement, however, I couldn't get any references to studies, and I doubt they would let their kids participate in any.

[justamouse]

What sort of bullying? If the girl is physically or verbally attacking the children and the parents don't want to handle it then I would call the police and report that my children were being harassed by a neighbor. That seems like the perfect "natural" consequence (which will hopefully work on both the parent and the child).

:iagree::iagree:

[Ellie]

I think there have been forms of this sort of parenting philosophy for quite a while--at least since the '70s, I would guess. (Does anyone else remember transactional analysis and "TA for Tots?") And I think if it were really turning out great adults, it would have caught on a little more.

Many parents back in the 50s? 60s? misread Dr. Spock's advice and thought he meant never, ever to correct/discipline children.

[Guest submarines]

Well, we are a child centered family, and I think what this mother is doing is not child centered, but irresponsible. If she wants to experiment with her child, then fine. She should be ready (and maybe even welcoming, if she is, in fact, sincere in her approach) for other parents to discipline her child. Your friend should start confronting the bully. She should stand up for her kids, and model this to her kids. What does she teach her children by sending them away? Avoidance? I wouldn't hesitate to call the police either.

 

 

 

My friend has two sons, 7 and 10, who are unable to spend the summer at home because the 12-year old girl next door has been bullying them. The older boy in particular is quite shy and is terrifed of her.

 

The mother of this girl refuses to discipline her on the grounds that their family is following "child-centered" principles (her term), and so follows a strict policy of non-intervention in disputes which her daughter initiates (I have no idea what she would do if her daughter were attacked).

 

I grew up in a middle-class neighbourhood, but around the corner was a rougher area. There were a few households that wouldn't do anything about their juvenile delinquents, but the fathers, predictably, were drunks or never around.

 

The mother of this girl, by contrast, is a psychotherapist, who practices a form of therapy known as "siding with the patient" (ie. she cries with them during sessions). Houses in this neighbourhood typically sell for $3 to 5 million, and I am not tempted to compare her household to the negligent ones I have just mentioned. There seems to be something else at work here than someone too drunk to pay attention to child-rearing.

 

I haven't met the woman, but I believe my friend's account of the story. She's a Phd in psychology and performs neurological research, I'm inclined to believe she at least has a handle on where this woman is coming from.

 

Does anyone else have experience in dealing with people following a "child-centered" philosophy in child-rearing?

___________________________________

Daughter: 10; Singapore Primary Mathematics 4B; Story of the World Level 1; Writing Strands 4; Spelling Workout Level E; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE4; FLL 4; Mindbenders

 

Son: 7: Writing with Ease 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 2A; general handwriting practice and reading practice; Spelling Workout Level C; SOTW 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

[Elizabeth in MN]

For the time that it was developmentally appropriate I ran a child centered home. That meant, for me, that the house was child friendly rather than a danger zone. It was heavily child proof, with lots of adaptations to help the child be able to do stuff in the environment like having a stepping stool so she could wash her hands. Now that my daughter is eleven we don't have all that, but I still run a house where "yes" is heard more often than "no". Mind you, I do say no to things.

 

My daughter is very decisive. She'll say "Let's play dolls" and unless the other child says "No, I want to play ball" then she will assume that the child is okay with playing dolls. This personality type paired with a very shy child would be a challenge, but not impossible. I'd have to do a lot of talking with my daughter about asking rather than telling or suggesting and activity.

 

On the other hand if my therapist cried when I was telling her about my past I'd walk out. I need someone who can help me, not someone who can validate me. I know my feelings are okay.

[Crimson Wife]

For the time that it was developmentally appropriate I ran a child centered home. That meant, for me, that the house was child friendly rather than a danger zone. It was heavily child proof, with lots of adaptations to help the child be able to do stuff in the environment like having a stepping stool so she could wash her hands. Now that my daughter is eleven we don't have all that, but I still run a house where "yes" is heard more often than "no". Mind you, I do say no to things.

 

A "child-friendly" home is something very different than a "child-centered" one. If you have no trouble asserting your authority over your child without worrying that doing so is "coercive", "controlling", "placing conditions on your love", or "hurting his/her self-worth", then you aren't practicing the kind of parenting that is meant.

[Halcyon]

Check out Naomi Aldert as an expert with a similar philosophy

 

 

I respectfully disagree with this-I have her main book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves and it has been immensely helpful in developing my approach towards my own kids (which is by no means hands-off!) There may be aspects to her philosophy that I disagree with, but overall, I think she provides a valuable perspective.

[Sevilla]

Here are some links that explain a child-centered philosophy more (a lot of it seems to be rooted in the idea that exercising authority over another person is inherently abusive/wrong/damaging):

 

Naomi Aldort on 'rude children'

Taking Children Seriously

Taking Children Seriously - nearly incomprehensible

Noncoercive Parenting

Consensual Living

Edited August 8, 2011 by Sevilla

[sagira]

I respectfully disagree with this-I have her main book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves and it has been immensely helpful in developing my approach towards my own kids (which is by no means hands-off!) There may be aspects to her philosophy that I disagree with, but overall, I think she provides a valuable perspective.

 

:iagree: And by NO means am I a child-centered parent. I place limits and guide, and would never tolerate behavior that is disrespectful and bullying. I cannot believe how some parents refuse to parent/guide/teach their children.

[susankenny]

I've not read the replies. The philosophy your talking about though involves life as the teacher, therefore, natural consequences are a part of this parenting style. If I were your friend, I'd step in and personally put this girl in her place and create and enforce boundaries to protect my children. That is a very natural consequence for this girl to learn, even if it isn't from her own parent. You mess with others, they will mess with you. Should the other mother step-in or speak-up, I'd put her in her place as well. You cannot walk through life torturing people and scaring them (scarring them too) and expect to have no backlash. If the boys aren't comfortable handling it (which clearly they aren't) then as the mother of those boys, I'd step in fully and forcefully.

 

Susan

[Tmhearn]

At the risk of being shunned from all classical homeschooling circles, I will admit that I was once a Radical Unschooler...

 

We practice Attachment Parenting with our children. When my first child was a toddler, I came across Radical Unschooling and liked the ideas put forth. As pp's have pointed out, the difference between radical and "regular" unschoolers is the extension past schooling into lifestyle choices. The belief (as I understand it) is that giving children the freedom to make their own choices will allow them to become better decision-makers. They also really believe that children are self-limiting. Obviously, most people want their children to be independent, self-limiting people.

 

When my dd was between 2 and 3, I started to realize that this parenting style would not work for us. I was not comfortable with letting my child eat whatever she wanted (at 2 year's old). I don't think it's fair to let a child eat M&M's for breakfast everyday when they don't have the knowledge about what that will eventually do to their bodies. Same goes for watching tv all day, etc. etc.

 

As the pp's have pointed out, it also creates a child-centered family, which is very different from a child-friendly family. A child-centered family revolves around the child. Everyone goes to bed when the child is ready. They get up when the child is ready. They leave the house and go when and where the child feels like going.

 

I do not intend to offend anyone with my post. Obviously, other people could have a different experience. This parenting style might work well for a child who is mild-mannered and has a strong inner sense of responsibility. (Mine didn't. Ha ha ha!) I just felt the need to respond, since not many people on this board seemed familiar with this philosophy.

 

And fyi, I came to Well-Trained Mind when my dd was 4. She's almost 7. We are pretty die-hard WTM fans. We use ETC, FLL, SOTW, Singapore, etc. So, please don't write me off as the crazy radical unschooler lady if you see me post again! Ha ha ha...

 

Taryn

[Carol in Cal.]

I know that unschoolers don't have to be unparenters. I've seen both, and one doesn't imply the other.

 

I think that the unparenting movement is a natural consequence of loss of social norms. If there are no 'conventions' that apply to everyone, no cultural norms of behavior that can be labelled 'civilized' or even 'right' or 'moral' or 'true', then it seems that this extreme extension of tolerance and mutual respect can only lead to chaotic anarchy. It is amazing to me that intelligent parents fall for this. I know that ineffective parents sometimes fall back on 'society' to back them up, but it's really frightening when there is no 'society' to do so.

[Grammar Stage Parent]

I've not read the replies. The philosophy your [sic] talking about though involves life as the teacher, therefore, natural consequences are a part of this parenting style. If I were your friend, I'd step in and personally put this girl in her place and create and enforce boundaries to protect my children. That is a very natural consequence for this girl to learn, even if it isn't from her own parent. You mess with others, they will mess with you. Should the other mother step-in or speak-up, I'd put her in her place as well. You cannot walk through life torturing people and scaring them (scarring them too) and expect to have no backlash. If the boys aren't comfortable handling it (which clearly they aren't) then as the mother of those boys, I'd step in fully and forcefully.

This is why in my initial message I wondered what this mother would be idle if someone attacked her child or if the children she attacked fought back.

 

This is why I want to know more about this "style"; for all I know, a practitioner of this philosophy might turn around and call the cops on me or my friend if we intervened and tried to put somebody in their place.

 

If these people think parental discipline is "coercive", I can't possibly begin to assume what they think constitutes "common sense".

 

Please explain in this situation how "life" is the teacher. I haven't the faintest idea what this means. I had thought "life" entailed parents employing discipline, when necessary.

[Food4Thought]

At the risk of being shunned from all classical homeschooling circles, I will admit that I was once a Radical Unschooler...

 

We practice Attachment Parenting with our children. When my first child was a toddler, I came across Radical Unschooling and liked the ideas put forth. As pp's have pointed out, the difference between radical and "regular" unschoolers is the extension past schooling into lifestyle choices. The belief (as I understand it) is that giving children the freedom to make their own choices will allow them to become better decision-makers. They also really believe that children are self-limiting. Obviously, most people want their children to be independent, self-limiting people.

 

When my dd was between 2 and 3, I started to realize that this parenting style would not work for us. I was not comfortable with letting my child eat whatever she wanted (at 2 year's old). I don't think it's fair to let a child eat M&M's for breakfast everyday when they don't have the knowledge about what that will eventually do to their bodies. Same goes for watching tv all day, etc. etc.

 

As the pp's have pointed out, it also creates a child-centered family, which is very different from a child-friendly family. A child-centered family revolves around the child. Everyone goes to bed when the child is ready. They get up when the child is ready. They leave the house and go when and where the child feels like going.

 

I do not intend to offend anyone with my post. Obviously, other people could have a different experience. This parenting style might work well for a child who is mild-mannered and has a strong inner sense of responsibility. (Mine didn't. Ha ha ha!) I just felt the need to respond, since not many people on this board seemed familiar with this philosophy.

 

And fyi, I came to Well-Trained Mind when my dd was 4. She's almost 7. We are pretty die-hard WTM fans. We use ETC, FLL, SOTW, Singapore, etc. So, please don't write me off as the crazy radical unschooler lady if you see me post again! Ha ha ha...

 

Taryn

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. The first family that popped into my mind when I saw this thread is a family that says they are "Attachment Parents" also. I did quite a bit of attachment parenting with mine (even co-sleeping and sling-wearing), but I couldn't reconcile not disciplining my children and just leaving them to their own devices and hopeful survival.

 

The family I know has a 7 & 5 year old (like mine), but they are a *nightmare* to be around. I know of several households where these kids will never be invited again, even with a parent present (the parents do nothing, not even if their kids are strangling other kids). The irony is that the father won't let the mother homeschool. He says the kids need to go to public school so they can be properly socialized. :tongue_smilie:

[Grammar Stage Parent]

Here are some links that explain a child-centered philosophy more (a lot of it seems to be rooted in the idea that exercising authority over another person is inherently abusive/wrong/damaging):

 

Naomi Aldort on 'rude children'

Taking Children Seriously

Taking Children Seriously - nearly incomprehensible

Noncoercive Parenting

Consensual Living

 

These are very revealing links, so I now have a start on where these people are coming from.

 

Thank you very much.

[Elizabeth in MN]

A "child-friendly" home is something very different than a "child-centered" one. If you have no trouble asserting your authority over your child without worrying that doing so is "coercive", "controlling", "placing conditions on your love", or "hurting his/her self-worth", then you aren't practicing the kind of parenting that is meant.

 

Very true. Lots of my then-friends thought I was going too far and raising a child who thought the world revolved around her. How dare I not have a room that she was not allowed to go into! Now I have friends who are parents themselves and "get it" : D

 

At the risk of being shunned from all classical homeschooling circles, I will admit that I was once a Radical Unschooler...

 

We practice Attachment Parenting with our children. When my first child was a toddler, I came across Radical Unschooling and liked the ideas put forth. As pp's have pointed out, the difference between radical and "regular" unschoolers is the extension past schooling into lifestyle choices. The belief (as I understand it) is that giving children the freedom to make their own choices will allow them to become better decision-makers. They also really believe that children are self-limiting. Obviously, most people want their children to be independent, self-limiting people.

 

When my dd was between 2 and 3, I started to realize that this parenting style would not work for us. I was not comfortable with letting my child eat whatever she wanted (at 2 year's old). I don't think it's fair to let a child eat M&M's for breakfast everyday when they don't have the knowledge about what that will eventually do to their bodies. Same goes for watching tv all day, etc. etc.

 

As the pp's have pointed out, it also creates a child-centered family, which is very different from a child-friendly family. A child-centered family revolves around the child. Everyone goes to bed when the child is ready. They get up when the child is ready. They leave the house and go when and where the child feels like going.

 

I do not intend to offend anyone with my post. Obviously, other people could have a different experience. This parenting style might work well for a child who is mild-mannered and has a strong inner sense of responsibility. (Mine didn't. Ha ha ha!) I just felt the need to respond, since not many people on this board seemed familiar with this philosophy.

 

And fyi, I came to Well-Trained Mind when my dd was 4. She's almost 7. We are pretty die-hard WTM fans. We use ETC, FLL, SOTW, Singapore, etc. So, please don't write me off as the crazy radical unschooler lady if you see me post again! Ha ha ha...

 

Taryn

 

We are also an AP family, fairly hardcore at it too. I'll never regret learning to respect my child for being herself, and also learning how to still be the adult.

 

Once upon a time I was asked what form of home schooling I practice and said I was somewhere between Classical and Unschooling. I know radical unschoolers and their children are growing up with huge gaps in their education and self-discipline. I was pointed to TWTM when my daughter was about two, the same time I found out my dreams of a Waldorf home school wouldn't work (she'd learned most of her ABCs on her own). Everything was very informal until about two years ago. In retrospect I would have done more FLL with her but life goes on.

 

(please don't hate me for being off topic. I'm sick in bed and need the mental distraction!)

[dragons in the flower bed]

It sounds a little like non-coercive parenting, often NCP or TCS (for a magazine or book I think that was about NCP, called Taking Children Seriously), but I've never heard that called by the phrase child-centered household.

Edited August 9, 2011 by dragons in the flower bed

[stripe]

If it's great to be child-centered, then widen the circle to include ALL children. Not just one's own. If one child is harming another, time to intervene. Sheesh.

[wapiti]

The first things I'd do would be to "get in the face" of the girl, literally, and make it crystal clear to the mom of the girl that the girl is not welcome on my property. I wonder whether the mom of the bullied kids is trying too hard to maintain a nice relationship with the neighbor.

 

We had some bullying neighbor kids when I was growing up, and a couple times the police were called (when things were being thrown at us to the point of hurting, and then there was the nighttime fire in the yard). It didn't stop us from playing in the yard, even though though the yard was small and there was a small enough distance to the next yard for the insults to be hurled. I remember listening to lots of insults on the way home from the bus stop. It made me very angry as a kid, but there were lots of life lessons involved, particularly of the sticks-and-stones-may-break-my-bones-but-names-will-never-hurt-me variety.

[Farrar]

I think there can be a lot of merit to some of the ideas behind this thinking. Coming from an attachment parenting, liberal sort of style, I certainly ask for my kids' input on all kinds of matters. Whenever possible, I put them in charge of their own well-being and their own entertainment, enjoyment, etc. I let them work things out as much as possible and sometimes refuse to step in.

 

The difference is that there are clear boundaries where I'll comfortably step in and set outside boundaries if I need to. I would much rather they figure out that it's worth it to bring your mittens in winter, so I'll gladly let them not bring them in the hopes that they figure it out. But other safety things I'll handle until they get older. I think it's worth it for them to learn to mediate disputes for themselves, even if there are sometimes yelling and tears. But not for bullying and violence. The question for me is always how much freedom can I give them. And, if I can't give them the freedom and the choice, how can I structure it so that they're ready for it in the future.

 

People who have absolutely no non-negotiables, no boundaries at all... they give a bad name, in my humble opinion, to parents who try to raise our kids with less coercion, not no coercion. And they turn some people off to parenting techniques that they might find useful if they had not seen them taken way too far. All things in moderation, you know.

 

I think of Alfie Kohn as the lead thinker in this style of parenting these days... he goes a bit too far for me though.

 

Oh, and I'm with WendyK's call the police suggestion too. Good grief.

[sagira]

If it's great to be child-centered, then widen the circle to include ALL children. Not just one's own. If one child is harming another, time to intervene. Sheesh.

 

Good point.

[laundrycrisis]

People who have absolutely no non-negotiables, no boundaries at all... they give a bad name, in my humble opinion, to parents who try to raise our kids with less coercion, not no coercion. And they turn some people off to parenting techniques that they might find useful if they had not seen them taken way too far. All things in moderation, you know.

 

 

:iagree: It is an example of a good idea taken to unreasonable extremes.

[momsquared]

I feel like I am seeing more and more of this as a teacher and a parent. I have freshmen in high school students with credit cards they can use freely. I know of parents selling homes and moving into little apartments so the KIDS don't have to commute so far. I go to festivals and family events and want to leave half the time because the children act like feral cats.

 

I realize my children are far from perfect, and they are definitely indulged in many ways. We also discuss various decisions with them, and they have input in their learning and education. HOWEVER, they certainly do not rule the roost. I do not understand where this philosophy would ever be helpful in life. There are very few (if any) realities where you don't have to answer to someone at some time.

 

So as adults they won't pay their bills because they don't feel like it? No job? Maybe commit crimes to check that out?

 

It really is starting to drive me nuts. I have a "friend of a friend" who unschools and her kids are ridiculous. Like, I don't want them around my children ridiculous. And her? Now that she has been at this non-stop for so many years? She is burnt out. She was recently seen composing a song on her guitar while her children ran through the streets - one naked - while she screamed at them from the front porch. Can't imagine that is going to work out well on the streets of Chicago...

[Ellesmere]

A "child-friendly" home is something very different than a "child-centered" one. If you have no trouble asserting your authority over your child without worrying that doing so is "coercive", "controlling", "placing conditions on your love", or "hurting his/her self-worth", then you aren't practicing the kind of parenting that is meant.

 

Here are some links that explain a child-centered philosophy more (a lot of it seems to be rooted in the idea that exercising authority over another person is inherently abusive/wrong/damaging):

 

Naomi Aldort on 'rude children'

Taking Children Seriously

Taking Children Seriously - nearly incomprehensible

Noncoercive Parenting

Consensual Living

 

Just adding to the difference on Child-friendly vs. Child-centered ...

No real advice for the OP, but I looked at the thread b/c "child-centered" was defined as something totally different by someone that used to teach parenting classes in our area. I was ignorant of the term being used as a descriptive of what was described by the OP until now.