I wonder what the momma will think when her sweet girl does this to the wrong person and starts geting her butt whipped! I do not promote that, but it will inevitably happen.:glare: Earlier in this thread, I asked someone how what it means for "life" to be a "teacher". I haven't gotten a response yet. I would also want to know to what limit life can be a teacher, especially since someone else noted that a family following the child-centered philosophy just saw their 14-year old give up a baby for adoption.

Just to address the info in the OP: What kind of weak kneed ninny sends her kids away from home rather than handle a really very simple situation of disagreement with a neighbor? As for TCS and radical unschooling... the radically unschooled kids in our group are not brats at all. They are thoughtful pleasant kids. I'll take your word for it that the radically unschooled kids in your group are thoughtful and pleasant, if you take my word that my friend is not a "weak kneed ninny", okay? As an adult, you can only be a victim of a 12 yr old if you allow yourself to be. One of the reasons I want to find out more about this philosophy (see my OP) is that I wonder if such parents are inclined to call the cops and report people who stand up to them. After all, she is my friend and I am concerned about her. This child-centered mother is a psychotherapist and probably knows a thing or two about the law -and how to talk herself around it. Have there never been bullies that insisted that the victim hit first?

Here are some links that explain a child-centered philosophy more (a lot of it seems to be rooted in the idea that exercising authority over another person is inherently abusive/wrong/damaging): Naomi Aldort on 'rude children' Taking Children Seriously Taking Children Seriously - nearly incomprehensible Noncoercive Parenting Consensual Living These are very revealing links, so I now have a start on where these people are coming from. Thank you very much.

I've not read the replies. The philosophy your [sic] talking about though involves life as the teacher, therefore, natural consequences are a part of this parenting style. If I were your friend, I'd step in and personally put this girl in her place and create and enforce boundaries to protect my children. That is a very natural consequence for this girl to learn, even if it isn't from her own parent. You mess with others, they will mess with you. Should the other mother step-in or speak-up, I'd put her in her place as well. You cannot walk through life torturing people and scaring them (scarring them too) and expect to have no backlash. If the boys aren't comfortable handling it (which clearly they aren't) then as the mother of those boys, I'd step in fully and forcefully. This is why in my initial message I wondered what this mother would be idle if someone attacked her child or if the children she attacked fought back. This is why I want to know more about this "style"; for all I know, a practitioner of this philosophy might turn around and call the cops on me or my friend if we intervened and tried to put somebody in their place. If these people think parental discipline is "coercive", I can't possibly begin to assume what they think constitutes "common sense". Please explain in this situation how "life" is the teacher. I haven't the faintest idea what this means. I had thought "life" entailed parents employing discipline, when necessary.

By "sent away", I mean that she chose to let the boys spend the summer in the countryside with their grandmother. It's a lovely area, in any case. They do have a fence, but I don't know the circumstances of their earlier encounters. I don't know how responsive the police are in your area, they're sure not in ours, but I think the point my friend is making is that kids can do a lot of damage to each other without breaking any laws. I had been under the impression that unschoolers like John Holt's and Ivan Illyich's books. Is there a manifesto of "radical unschooling"? The unschoolers I have encountered always insist that children raised under this approach "turn out just fine". Given their opposition to systematic measurement, however, I couldn't get any references to studies, and I doubt they would let their kids participate in any.

I'll grant you it seems incredible that the kids have to be sent away for the summer and that the cops, to my knowledge, haven't been called. Again, I suspect that this woman has already had some run-ins elsewhere (her child does appear to go to a regular school, though not sure if it's public or private), and has been able to resist whatever pressure was placed on her to discipline. Again, I would be very interested in knowing if there is some kind of book or website where these people get together and trade ideas/strategies/plans of criminal intent and negligence. Judging from what others have written here, this movement does appear to be gaining ground with professional, educated people. If professional, educated people are backing this, I'm not so sure police and law courts and child welfare agencies are well-prepared to handle this kind of problem.

It wasn't a good time to ask what kind of bullying, but since my friend spends all day long with those who have suffered brain damage and memory loss, I think she's pretty adept at identifying the potential for trauma. Do these child-centered people have a seminal text that expresses their philosophy? Is it a movement within psychology or education or some other intellectual discipline? I wondered if it had some connection with "unschooling". What I find most disturbing about this woman is that police generally know how to deal with drunks and negligent parents. Because this woman is a licensed therapist, I suspect that she's got resources behind her if anyone, including law enforcement, tries to confront her about her psychopath in training.

My friend has two sons, 7 and 10, who are unable to spend the summer at home because the 12-year old girl next door has been bullying them. The older boy in particular is quite shy and is terrifed of her. The mother of this girl refuses to discipline her on the grounds that their family is following "child-centered" principles (her term), and so follows a strict policy of non-intervention in disputes which her daughter initiates (I have no idea what she would do if her daughter were attacked). I grew up in a middle-class neighbourhood, but around the corner was a rougher area. There were a few households that wouldn't do anything about their juvenile delinquents, but the fathers, predictably, were drunks or never around. The mother of this girl, by contrast, is a psychotherapist, who practices a form of therapy known as "siding with the patient" (ie. she cries with them during sessions). Houses in this neighbourhood typically sell for $3 to 5 million, and I am not tempted to compare her household to the negligent ones I have just mentioned. There seems to be something else at work here than someone too drunk to pay attention to child-rearing. I haven't met the woman, but I believe my friend's account of the story. She's a Phd in psychology and performs neurological research, I'm inclined to believe she at least has a handle on where this woman is coming from. Does anyone else have experience in dealing with people following a "child-centered" philosophy in child-rearing? ___________________________________ Daughter: 10; Singapore Primary Mathematics 4B; Story of the World Level 1; Writing Strands 4; Spelling Workout Level E; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE4; FLL 4; Mindbenders Son: 7: Writing with Ease 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 2A; general handwriting practice and reading practice; Spelling Workout Level C; SOTW 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

A year ago, I decided to start my daughter at WWE 3 in part because her summary of "The Emperor's New Clothes", which the first lesson of WWE 4 focused on, missed the details hinting at the irony of the story's theme. On this and other occasions when she read it, she took the humour on a "slapstick" level: a man walking around naked, and nothing more. Having graduated from WWE 3, we tackled lesson 1 from WWE 4 last night, and, even though her diction is much stronger now, she doesn't seem much closer in appreciating that it is a child and a commoner who declares the emperor has no clothes, and that it is the powerful who are all self-deluded. She is excelling at the logic program we have started, as per SWB's recommendations, so she appears to be fairly bright for her age. At what point did your kids start developing a sense of irony? Daughter: 10; Singapore Primary Mathematics 4A; Story of the World Level 4; Writing Strands 4; Spelling Workout Level E; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE4; FLL 4; Mindbenders Son: 7: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 2A; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

I've been reading a few threads from 2008 on how people don't RSVP to birthday invitations anymore, and can totally relate to the frustrations expressed there. I'll give a nod to the correspondents who justified not giving RSVPs on the grounds that they "just got busy". (Imagine that! Some parents actually get busy on occasion!) We had a huge problem with this a couple of years ago; I'll not soon forget the conversation I had with a father who thought that RSVP meant that I was supposed to respond to his wife's response to my RSVP request. (Don't bother re-reading that, as I am just as confused as you are ...) Things are getting better now. The kids are starting to understand that some of their best friends have extremely disorganized and unreliable parents, and, through constant reminders, they recognize that no-shows even among those who do RSVP are a fact of life. It's important to put your phone number and e-mail address on the invitations, because e-mail is part of some people's routines and gives some the option of not having to speak to you as they explain their kids can't come. (A couple of families, I have grown to suspect, either dislike us or are hostile to birthday parties). Some have suggested that if no RSVPs are coming in, they just call everyone who has been invited. I'm not sure this works for a lot of people, because many don't readily give out their phone numbers. And even when we did call, we'd typically get a voice mail message, and the message we left remained ignored. We've settled on bowling this year (they're five days apart, so we usually double up on the parties), not because the kids are particularly attracted to it, but because the fee isn't based on how many actually show up. Even if, in the unlikely event, nobody came, there would at least be something to do to soften the crushing blow of the no-shows. In preparation for the party, we mentioned all this to the bowling alley staff member, a middle-aged mom, with the scars to show for it, and she replied, "Oh, nobody RSVPs anymore. You know what I do? I write on the invitation, 'Please inform me of nut allergies and dietary restrictions.' You'll get calls." The gal was right. For the first time in years, everyone called. Daughter: 10; Singapore Primary Mathematics 4A; Story of the World Level 3; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level E; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 7: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 2A; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

After consulting a number of science experiment books (ie. Janice Van Cleave), I concluded that a lot of "science toys" or material found in gift shops at science museums are not worth the money. In many cases, the scientific principles they convey can be discovered using affordable household items. Sure, science kits can save time and money - when I go to a big box store to find some of the more unusual material for an experiment, the most common expression from the staff is a blank stare and a shrug, and then they put their head phones back on. But this is something I have to live with, given our limited funds (ie. in our area, sales tax is not levied on something we get at a supermarket, but is always at a toy store or museum shop). There are of course, exceptions. The *Mudpies to Magnets* books have experiments called "Tornado Tower" and "Tornado in a Jar" which said a plastic film canister inserted between two bottle openings would help make a mini-tornado. Nope. Film canisters are not designed to be screwed onto bottle tops. This feat can be done only by something like a Twister Tube, which I got for $3 at a science store, although the manufacturer website lists only the more expensive models: https://www.beamazing.com/Products/Default.aspx?pg=8 Does anyone think there some "essential" purchases for homeschooled science? The ones that come to my mind are a good quality telescope and microscope. (I learned the hard way that the cheap prototypes for those are useless). Anything else? _______________________________________________________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 3; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level E; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

Thank you for your hard work. I am curious, however, as to why the film *Amadeus* is in the section for the Renaissance. _________________________________________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 3; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level D; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

More than a few... Grammar Stage Parent: Did the test specify whether all fence sections had to be used? No, the test didn't. I agree that the presentation threw her and me off. Singapore's problems are presented in a very formulaic manner, and I still can't find where in their cycle questions of this nature are discussed. Interesting that someone else said that the question isn't college-level, but might be grade 7 algebra level ...

Hmmm, I appreciate the responses, but since we've been deep in Singapore for the last four years, it's hard for me to get a wider perspective on this. I'm going to consult some other math texts. Thanks to everyone who responded.

Could you elaborate on what standard of suitability you are using?

Our daughter recently wrote a standardized test for Grade 4 which the public schools in our area use. The math section consisted of two questions. The first was this: "The class is building a rectangular pen for puppies. They have 24 sections of fence. Each section is 1 m long. Draw ALL the possible rectangular shapes that can be made and label their sides." This problem was accompanied by a drawing of several kids holding rectangular pen pieces, with wires connected to iron borders. She has done well in Singapore Math, but it didn't prepare her - or me - for a question of this nature. A friend who did graduate work in mathematics glanced at it and said that this was a college-level question. Does anyone have anything to say about the suitability of this question? I'm not having a crisis of faith with Singapore. I just want to know if this test question was improper at the Grade 4 level, and to what degree. ______________________________________________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 3; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level D; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

>We are using Intro to Science. We completed our first week this week, and I have the materials scheduled out for the whole course. So far, the hardest things for me to find for the first 6 weeks of experiments or so are liquid bluing (which I had to order from Amazon), rubber sponges (which I still haven't found), and film canisters (which I also had to order from a >science store since everyone uses digital now). ____________________________________________ I gave up looking for those, as I could take only so many puzzled looks from hardware store staff. I got some of those coloured rubber bracelets and am going to bunch them up and glue them. I'll let you know how it goes. ________________________________________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 3; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level D; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

Thank you very much everyone. I had been unaware of Elemental Science, and I will probably get it the Earth Science one right away!

Janice Van Cleave's science experiment books *seem* so comprehensive that I am thinking about relying on them entirely for Logic Stage Science and on her *Play and Find Out* for Grammar Stage Science (for the latter stage, I would also use the two *Mudpies ... Magnets* books and a couple of other similiar books). Her coverage of all the major branches of each scientific discipline looks complete to this non-science major, but even with my lack of education in the area, her biology books seem to have given genetics short shrift. Does anyone else have an opinion about relying on the Van Cleave books? We've been neglectful towards science because it's been such a hassle hunting down supplies for the experiments, but my time is now freeing up a bit for me to manage things better. I am of the opinion that no matter how many science books we own and videos they watch, they won't learn science unless they go out and practice experiments. Our daughter is geared towards biology and our son physics. ________________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 3; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level D; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

This is an excellent book that combines sentence diagramming with many grammar rules (copied from Amazon). I used it for a (very unmotivated) 10 year-old boy, and he loved it. Rex Barks: Diagramming Sentences Made Easy ~ Phyllis Davenport (Author), Lisa VanDamme (Introduction) ________________________________________________ _________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 2; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level C; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

We've used only SOTW, plus similiarly-designed resources for local history, so I'm not in a position to comment on other curricula. But as I read your post I wondered how much time your kids were spending on the various strands of English. For instance, we stopped writing summaries (a skill I value very highly) for SOTW because this year because we started WWE and are following its recommended format closely. Do your English composition activities allow the kids to compose passages about historical events or figures that interest them? As for this online resource, what other features does it have besides retention of historical facts? will it reduce the time your kids need to spend on other things? Developing a historical timeline is an important part of the logic stage - does this curriculum involve the child in that? does it have something else that aids an understanding of chronology and causation, as SWB describes in the Logic Stage section of WTM? As much as possible, we try to do the science experiments chronologically (ie. the gravity experiments around the time we study Galileo, electricity experiments around the time of Ben Franklin), and so when we do the write-ups, we are in effect killing two birds with one stone: combining knowledge of science and history, and practicing English composition, to boot. I hope this helps or is relevant to you. __________________________________________________ _________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 2; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level C; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

I thought you may want to be aware of my experiences in BC in 2007 and 2008. I helped a family whose boys were in the DL learning arrangement. She hired me to help mostly her older son, who had been unable to complete the Grade 4 requirements by the end of June 2007. In other words, he "failed". The reason the Ministry of Education had resurrected this practice is that, at least at that time, they were not paying teachers in that department to work summers, so DL kids had to follow the BC curriculum ruthlessly, and at a fairly accelerated pace. Another thing was that this mom didn't have a homeschooling curriculum preference, she basically just wanted the kids at home and literate. So she got maximum funding. A vendor in Langley (since closed) indicated religious content on the items in her catalogue because these were things that BC homeschoolers could not get reimbursed for. The older boy was provided with a laptop and was required to attend online sessions for Grade 4 English. Personally, as a classical homeschooler, I decided this arrangement wasn't for me, despite the financial remunerations. Even though DL kids necessarily do more writing than public school kids, the pace in my opinion was pretty tough. ___________________________________________________________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 2; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level C; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

What does your rebellion consist of? I disagree with some aspects of the coverage, but not the breakdown itself. I could elaborate, but it's hard to respond to "I don't know why, I just don't". _________________________________________________________ Daughter: 9; Singapore Primary Mathematics 3B; Story of the World Level 2; Writing Strands 3; Spelling Workout Level C; Science experiment books recommended in WTM; WWE3 Son: 6: First Language Lessons Level 2; Singapore Primary Mathematics 1B; general handwriting practice and reading practice; SOTW 1; WWE 1; Science experiment books recommended in WTM

I'm starting to wonder if the death blow to the apostrophe is the World Wide Web. Companies with a possessive in their name (ie. Joe's Diner) lose the apostrophe when they create their domain name (ie. joesdiner.com) ... It's interesting that many are referring to *The Elements of Style* for the rules of the possessive apostrophe. The origin of this post was my encountering (in my view) a grotesquely unfair review of that classic, a review which contained an improperly used "it's". I wrote the person responsible for it, suggesting that he spend his time proofreading his own work instead of writing irresponsible reviews of grammar guides. (Really, he deserved it; he wrote a savage review.) He wrote back and asked me what mistake he had made! Again, the nature of electronic communications seems to encourage proofreading neglect, but I find it really disturbing that some seem not to have a clue about proper apostrophe use. Thanks for the Rod and Staff recommendations!

>In reading your post, I was paying attention to your apostrophe usage, since that >was what you were posting about. I wondered if it should have been "90's"? >Also.....you typed "subject's". It could be correct.....but I bet I would have typed >it as "subjects" (and like I said above, I'd probably be wrong). But, then >again......I didn't really understand that entire sentence you wrote. LOL! Thanks for calling me for failing to do what I've been criticizing others for. The word "subject's" was something I had intended to omit. I'm as guilty as anyone for faulty proofreading, but my concern for this post was that misplaced and absent apostrophes are passing otherwise ruthless proofreading, because a lot seem not to know how they are used properly. I confirmed with a professional editor what I had learned years ago: "90s", not "90's", is the correct spelling. The apostrophe there serves no purpose that the plural "s" cannot provide. Writing "90s" is no different in substance than "books", as in "I have two books" and "We visited several times in the 90s" (ie. in 1993, 1997, etc.) .