Just curious - Are homeschool curriculums dumbing down like ps ones?...

[Ester Maria]

I find that in most cases when we talk about words being "charged", we are actually talking about subjective impressions, some of which may come as a result of one's own baggage, being read into the text - the infamous "implications" which may or may not really exist. Personally, right now, I can think of exactly three or four cases in my two years on these boards where *I* believe that I tangibly crossed the line; on the other hand, I can think of multiple attacks on me on the grounds of what other people perceived as implications or rudeness when I was merely stating my opinions and when I felt ticketed by the niceness police.

 

Using words like "bad", "wrong" or "invalid" is a personal opinion, which is usually backed up by an entire context of the why of that opinion - and whether such in absolute or relatively (most of my characterizations in those terms are actually of relative value, not of absolute - rather than not considering "valid" at all, I do not consider something "valid" in particular contexts, e.g. in the context of high school for-credit foreign language learning). Those words are not charged per se, in fact, very often using ANY other word would mean losing on clarity. Obviously, there is a certain moral dimension implied in a word choice such as "wrong", and in most of those contexts morals are not discussed, so it is a mistake in category (or just typing quickly and not overthinking the language use :D), but even if they were, they are by definition an expression of a subjective view of things; expressions such as "ought to" are fundamentally moral preferences too - they are the equivalents of il faut que ... - and are subjunctive in their semantic value rather than imperative OR a mere indicative, even if in English that does not come across very clearly in the language itself. I find that subjective expressions of that kind are in and of themselves enough of a disclaimer and am always surprised whenever somebody fails to notice the value-based nature of those statements.

 

"I hate X" is fundamentally subjective in how it is stated, no further disclaimer of any kind is needed. "Superficial" is a matter of perspective; "superior" largely so as well. They can be used in indicative statements, for which the poster feels are grounded in reality, but there is always a slight subjunctive value to them too.

 

There is nothing inherently problematic about those word choices, the worst thing that can happen is a mixing of categories (think correct vs. valid - one is a factual statement, one is framework-based), which we all do the moment we step into the sphere of colloquial language. The problems appear when one imputes one's own colloquial baggage into perfectly neutral terms - please note that even if that colloquial baggage happens to be shared by more individuals (i) it may not be universal and (ii) you still have an option of reminding yourself of all of these things and attempting to read what is stated, rather than what you personally believe is being implied on any level.

 

I have a friend who considers my taste in music to be "vulgar". My taste pretty much includes much of classical Italian opera and much of Romanticism, actually. Her use of the term "vulgar" has nothing to do with the contemporary moral connotations of the term, she uses it in a far more literal sense. I like clear melodies, clear structures, which appeal to a great number of people and do not have a kind of more difficult inherent harmony as do some other compositions, which are less so "vulgar", less so popular with the masses, more intricate in their structure for that. I lack the professional lingo to explain what she explained to me, but the point is: when I felt 'attacked' by such characterization of my taste, I asked her what exactly she meant, vulgar in what sense, rather than imputing intentions behind her words or "implications" about me, my level of musical knowledge (which is admittedly rather low in comparison LOL), my taste, etc.

 

Obviously, overthinking every word we use the way I am doing now is not an option when you are writing on message boards, but it helps to be aware of these issues sometimes, to realize that we come with different views of what expressions are inherently acceptable (my tolerance is very high in this camp, personally - especially when it comes to more 'allegoric', analogy-based type of writing rather than attempts to write in as precise as possible scientific way, so both "freer" use of language and a more literal one than the norm is fine with me, if in doubt I can always ask), to what extent, plus add the stylistic differences, personality differences, and there you have a chaos.

 

Personally, I generally find people getting defensive and then quoting things out of context and extrapolating them to mean something else or without asking for a fuller context, focusing on controversy when discussion could have normally proceeded or actively attempting to "dig out" and use against you any previous language issues to discredit you and impute into your overall intentions, to be inherently, and usually absolutely, way more rude and disrespectful than any flowery language, any inappropriate analogy, any lack of disclaimer or term used too freely, any drawing of PMs into discussions or discussion on the level of private chit-chat, or just any real mistake which people should get over, I have ever seen on these boards.

 

I can understand that a part of that is emotional and that people react.

What I cannot understand is long term resentment, a feeling that we must overcome the gap between us and come to some sort of agreement (why not just... disagree?), that amount of subjectively seen "implications" being presented as objective facts existing in one's posts (EVEN if we could argue about perceptible bias), imputing that some things are written about you even if not in a reply to you (many of people's remarks are there to provide a context for their replies, exaggerated to make a contrast as clear as possible, or just plain theoretical musings - NOT everything people write is about concrete other people and their concrete approaches, and most people have ZERO interest in writing in riddles and purposely filling their posts with "implications" for others to decode) or even ultra-scrutinizing everything somebody writes and not allowing that some of that is just plain frustration or a bad day. And then bring it on against them when it suits them nicely. Makes you go :banghead: and give up on any further meaningful communication.

 

On a personal note, I get why I can hit a nerve with some people, usually in hindsight when I reread things after having chilled and I even sometimes reach a conclusion that "yeah, that could have been expressed better", but a lot of times I felt that the reaction was simply not appropriate. And again, I hate using this an "excuse", but exactly how many of you have an experience of leading this type of discussions in your third or fourth (in terms of facility of expression, chronological familiarity or cultural feeling "at home") language, again? I am starting to wonder whether you can even imagine the extent of disadvantage that can occur when you attempt to have discussions beyond daily chit-chat in a language in which you were not educated and assimilated and thus lack a certain sophistication of use or the feeling of cultural propriety. (Of course, I do realize it is my choice to participate here at all and that I am by no means "entitled" to your sympathy.) Pair that up with a bit atypical psychology and a different temperament and voila', you have issues.

 

Finally, I do not believe that any of us has, or should operate under the assumption they have, a supreme, decisive importance for anyone else - we tangibly affect other people only to the extent they allow us to affect them (and vice-versa), both when it comes to curriculum choice or the emotional relevance of what we write. I assume that adult people are aware of this, capable of filtering through the wealth of materials here on their own and that the ultimate responsibility for what they do and what turn they choose to take is on THEM, regardless of what any of us thinks about it or how they express it, realizing that people come from very different initial positions and contexts. I find that there is much subtle patronizing of people in requests that we be extra nice lest they get insecure, for example - I prefer to think they can decide for themselves whether they should get insecure, question they decision and what amount of relevance somebody else's input has for their situation, regardless how it is stated. I am not saying that tact does not matter, but that we maybe attribute too much importance to it.

[Janice in NJ]

Beth,

 

I'm sorry. This was a rude response, and I owe you an apology. I was in a bad mood this afternoon, and I ended up directing heat toward you. On another day, I might have chimed in with you. We hs'ed with momma-directed-only materials up until junior high when I started trying a couple of DVD courses. Regardless of whether we agree or not, my tone was unfriendly and challenging. That's the part I am sorry about.

 

(Colleen, you are the best. A peacemaker. Thank you for the hint. You are right. You didn't address my post directly, but your warmth put my curtness to shame. I hear you! Thank you!)

 

I am sorry, Beth. Will you please forgive me for being so rude?

Janice

[PeterPan]

Oh KarenAnne! I wasn't refering to you. I was thinking of the newbies and how it is hard it is for the oldies to support each other without discouraging the newbies. I was trying tactfully (perhaps I should forget tact - sigh) to offer a modus operandi for sifting through the great volume of contradictory posts. It is a problem. Posts meant as help for particular people are posted publicly and it is hard to tell what is meant for whom and what has followed before and all that. And yet, often posting publicly lets you get more help. I don't know. Anyway, I am most sorry if I hurt your feelings.

-nan (feeling very small)

 

Nan, could I thank you for sorting that out in my mind so neatly? That's exactly what's wrong in my brain, and I need to ponder it. :)

 

.. I am starting to wonder whether you can even imagine the extent of disadvantage that can occur when you attempt to have discussions beyond daily chit-chat in a language in which you were not educated and assimilated and thus lack a certain sophistication of use or the feeling of cultural propriety. (Of course, I do realize it is my choice to participate here at all and that I am by no means "entitled" to your sympathy.) Pair that up with a bit atypical psychology and a different temperament and voila', you have issues.[/size]

 

 

 

Ok EM, I had to chuckle with this one. For the record, I DON'T have any issue with your posts, mainly because I mentally skip anything I find confusing or disagree with, no biggee. But to say any offense you give is because you're using a language that is not your native is of course preposterous, lol. Your english is good enough that you clearly can control the jist of what you're saying. Numerous people on the boards here have lived in other cultures, speak other languages fluently, and understand the potential for miscommunication (and what we did in those situations to prevent misunderstanding). If the excuse is psychology and temperament, well that's pretty interesting. Here I figured *I* was the most nutty poster on the board. My dd assures me I am. :D

 

I don't know. I'm not meaning to pick on anyone, but mercy the language barrier thing, from someone who is so stinkin' fluent she makes the natives look like hicks, is a little lame. :)

 

Now I will go back to my newbie hollow and look for what applies to me. :)

[PeterPan]

I think in any group as large and diverse as homeschoolers there will always be people who want to define what it means to be a "true [whatever]." I don't understand why people get so hung up on labels, or why anyone really cares what other people call themselves, but it does seem to be an issue in every large group. If people want to limit the term "homeschooling" to those who school at home with Mom doing most of the teaching, then I'd be happy to adopt another term. I quite like Nan's idea of "indy educators" because that's actually a lot more descriptive of what we do.

 

Jackie

 

Maybe we could all go back and read "The Sneetches" by Dr. Seuss? :) Seriously, there is SO much change going on in homeschooling, it's really amazing. The things that are "the norm" to a newer generation of homeschoolers aren't even what we would have considered. And the things we're doing are chastised by the older generation. (Around here it's the idea of homeschooling is your G*d-given responsibility, a MUST, no matter WHAT.) There's just this rapid shift in methods, motives, the whole nine yards. And while we have to get absolutely certain about what WE want in OUR homes, it's awfully hard to be certain that that should be an absolute for someone else in a different situation (mother education, health, finances, local resources, etc.), kwim? Tends to make me a little more lenient with them, even if I'm not with myself, if that makes sense.

[Ester Maria]

But to say any offense you give is because you're using a language that is not your native is of course preposterous, lol.

Well, Elizabeth, this is a textbook example of taking out of context. Nowhere is it stated what you claim, you are taking one minor remark (from a large context of cultural properity, general semantic nuances which can be applied to any language, etc.), attributing it the sense of "wholeness" in and of itself, and starting a thread of though which, I can forsee, might result in ten people arguing over Ester's English while completely neglecting the post itself. And then two months later, in another discussion, somebody will causually 'remind' us that I also, among other things, use a foreign language excuse, because by then it will have become a fact. That is how it usually goes.

Your english is good enough that you clearly can control the jist of what you're saying. Numerous people on the boards here have lived in other cultures, speak other languages fluently, and understand the potential for miscommunication (and what we did in those situations to prevent misunderstanding).

You may be confusing two instances, fluency is NOT proficiency. There is a level of "knowing" a language at which you can chit-chat about pretty much anything and read popular novels (i.e. your typical fluency), then there is a level of "knowing" a language at which you can read professional scholarship and literature and anything native-written with facility, then there is a level of "knowing" a language where you can express yourself like a native, in all contexts imaginable, with that same facility, and using the words very, very clearly and distinctly, while being culturally proper. Reaching the third level is INSANELY difficult without extensive *education in the language* (no, not even extended stays in the country will do it in and of itself!) and anyone who has enough languages with varying levels in their repertory will affirm that. It would not be a problem if these discussions remained on the level of chit-chat at all times, but when they start getting "deeper", the disadvantage does pop up, especially if you are used to using words very clearly and distinctly in the languages in which you can do so. It is incredibly frustrating to be so limited in your expression, and my remark referred to those instances, rather than on the typical chit-chat, and then the frustration further abounds when you are in a completely different cultural context, education-wise, with a different academic tradition, different world of associations...

Edited June 17, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Colleen in NS]

Thank you for the hint.

 

Aw, Janice, :grouphug: I'm sure you know this, but I just want to say it here - it wasn't meant to be a hint to you and whoever else seemed to understand Beth the same as you previously did - I was just trying to help Beth along, in case she meant it the way I thought she did.

 

Janice, you are one classy lady to come here and publicly apologize.

[regentrude]

But to say any offense you give is because you're using a language that is not your native is of course preposterous, lol. Your english is good enough that you clearly can control the jist of what you're saying. Numerous people on the boards here have lived in other cultures, speak other languages fluently, and understand the potential for miscommunication (and what we did in those situations to prevent misunderstanding). If the excuse is psychology and temperament, well that's pretty interesting. ...

I don't know. I'm not meaning to pick on anyone, but mercy the language barrier thing, from someone who is so stinkin' fluent she makes the natives look like hicks, is a little lame.

 

Ester already said it much more eloquently, but let me comment on this, since I am also writing in a language which is not my native one.

Despite seeming fluent, thanks to ten years of language classes and 13 years of living in the US, I am constantly learning new things about the subtleties of the English language. The problems we were talking about here, such as tact, often hinge on the subtle differences in meaning between two words which seem to be almost synonyms.

We all know how difficult it is to convey tone in a written communication, such as on this forum, where any clues from facial expression are absent, how hard it is to express irony, for example.

Add to that that different cultures have different levels of directness and different kinds of humor, and you see how easily something a person means lightly or tounge-in-cheek can be misread as a serious or insulting statement. I have also, inadvertently, used bad language in public because some words that are considered profanity in this country have literal translations which are completely neutral words in German.

To me, this level of language learning is the hardest, because there are so many cultural connotations that play a role. As an example, you may remember the discussion on the General board about whether kids should address adults as Ma'm, and the different views about this between North and South: the same word is viewed in entirely different connotations by native speakers with different cultural backgrounds. Now imagine being a foreigner...

So, even though I can use grammar and syntax correctly and have a good vocabulary, I am not sure whether everything I write comes across as intended - or whether I step on anybody's toes without meaning to. If so, accept my apologies.

[Corraleno]

Maybe we could all go back and read "The Sneetches" by Dr. Seuss? :) Seriously, there is SO much change going on in homeschooling, it's really amazing. The things that are "the norm" to a newer generation of homeschoolers aren't even what we would have considered. And the things we're doing are chastised by the older generation... There's just this rapid shift in methods, motives, the whole nine yards. And while we have to get absolutely certain about what WE want in OUR homes, it's awfully hard to be certain that that should be an absolute for someone else in a different situation (mother education, health, finances, local resources, etc.), kwim? Tends to make me a little more lenient with them, even if I'm not with myself, if that makes sense.

:iagree:

I think many parents who are homeschooling now do so for very different reasons than those who were the pioneers a generation or two ago. It seems like a lot of people who would not choose to homeschool if they had a decent PS system are being forced into it because their kids have LDs or are being bullied or are being exposed to things like sex, drugs, and violence at shockingly young ages. DVD-based curricula, online courses, coops, scripted programs, etc., make it possible for a lot of people to homeschool who would not otherwise be capable of it. Maybe some parents do choose coops or online courses out of fear that they aren't capable of teaching their kids, but maybe those fears are well-founded — not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. If a parent really does not have the time/energy/personality to teach her kids at home, a coop day and a bunch of online courses may still be a much better alternative than leaving the kids in a horrible school system where they're failing or being bullied or assaulted in the bathroom.

 

I know of several families whose kids are really not being well-served by PS, but they tried homeschooling and failed. The moms just could not make it work for a variety of different reasons — mom had to work part-time, kid wouldn't accept instruction from "mom," kid pushed too many buttons and mom didn't have the patience, kid was P/G and mom had no idea how to keep him stimulated, etc. Maybe if they'd had access to more outside resources/teachers/mentors, those kids wouldn't have ended up back in PS. I think the vast majority of homeschooling parents really do care about their kids' education and are doing the best they can, even if this new version of "homeschooling" looks very different from the way it did 20 years ago.

 

Jackie

 

[Nan in Mass]

Isn't it funny how the short things are harder to say in a foreign language than the longer and harder things? Or perhaps it isn't so strange, since most of our more technical words come from Latin?

[cathmom]

:iagree:

kid was P/G and mom had no idea how to keep him stimulated, etc.

 

What is P/G? all I can think of is pregnant but the "him" seems to make that not applicable...

[Caitilin]

What is P/G? all I can think of is pregnant but the "him" seems to make that not applicable...

 

I think it stands for "profoundly gifted." :001_smile:

[cathmom]

I think it stands for "profoundly gifted." :001_smile:

 

LOL thanks. Wow, I can't imagine that a profoundly gifted kid needs his mom to keep him stimulated...wouldn't public school be profoundly stultifying?

[Corraleno]

LOL thanks. Wow, I can't imagine that a profoundly gifted kid needs his mom to keep him stimulated...wouldn't public school be profoundly stultifying?

He was only in 4th grade; his mom had no idea what to do with him, so he ended up playing video games for a year until they put him back in PS. I actually considered offering to school him, but he's an Aspie, as emotionally intense as he is brilliant, and I didn't feel like I could take that on, on top of educating my own kids. But it really breaks my heart to see a kid like that stuck in PS. I actually wish there were more options for homeschooling — more hybrid options or specialized coops or mentoring centers or something — for kids who really need an individualized education but whose parents just can't do it.

 

Jackie

[Joan in GE]

Reaching the third level is INSANELY difficult without extensive *education in the language* (no, not even extended stays in the country will do it in and of itself!) and anyone who has enough languages with varying levels in their repertory will affirm that.

 

I completely agree knowing how much I struggle with this myself in French and I'm continually amazed by what you are able to express so well that I'm happy to give you the "benefit of the doubt" for questionable remarks.

 

 

the responses I receive don't make sense without context; I can't understand your response because I can't fully understand the context of your response.

 

Janice made this point early on and it seems so applicable.

 

extrapolating them to mean something else or without asking for a fuller context, focusing on controversy when discussion could have normally proceeded

 

It is so easy to "jump to the wrong conclusion" (Have you read the Phantom Tollbooth EM? It's a children's book, nothing heavy. Probably you're way beyond it; it just came to mind with that expression.) But that all takes time and sometimes we're sleep-deprived, overworked, cranky, etc and don't have forbearance with our own offspring, let alone online contacts.

 

But it doesn't hurt to apologize publicly as Janice did or privately with a PM - as "humility" precedes deeper knowledge and after all we are just human beings - it's usually impossible to always be perfectly humble in our assessments, taking into account all the untold factors that are involved in decisions.

 

Thankfully there are so many voices on this board that enlighten me about experiences that I have never imagined that it seems like I'm almost continually backing down about some issue mentally. This board has educated me and continues to educate me about far more than educational materials.

 

So I appreciate KarenAnne's remarks as well about how we write, thinking of others and how people will read something. I know that when I go into analytical mode mentally, what downloads can have a "voice" which might cause offense, even though I don't want to offend. Though sometimes my honest thoughts might offend because I just don't know how to tone them down without completely missing the point. I still have a long way to go when it comes to written and verbal communication.

 

where any clues from facial expression are absent

 

And maybe more importantly no "tone of voice" to hear that the person is not being rude at all, though it may seem so in writing!

 

But it would be pretty hard to have a massive teleconference and completely impractical.... so we are stuck with this form of sharing of experiences and insights which even with all its problems has done, in my opinion, MUCH more good than harm...

 

Thankful for ALL the voices here,

Joan

[Ester Maria]

It is so easy to "jump to the wrong conclusion" (Have you read the Phantom Tollbooth EM? It's a children's book, nothing heavy. Probably you're way beyond it; it just came to mind with that expression.)

I doubt, it does not ring a bell; I will have to ask kids to tell me if they / we read it at some point.

But it doesn't hurt to apologize publicly as Janice did or privately with a PM - as "humility" precedes deeper knowledge and after all we are just human beings - it's usually impossible to always be perfectly humble in our assessments, taking into account all the untold factors that are involved in decisions.

This thread aside, a general problem with apologies is that they are not, in my view, something that ought to be done pro forma, because "it does not hurt to do it"; in fact, if one is doing it that way, it automatically takes away some weight from their apologies in general, makes them further "lighter" than maybe they should be in cases in which they do feel they should apologize. If one honestly does not believe they did / said anything wrong per se, and they know that their intentions were kosher, but that the problem is exclusively on the other side reading into too much, apologizing may be (i) somewhat dishonest, depending on one's sentiments and (ii) actually, in a way, patronizing towards those other people, because the message behind it would be "you are so fragile that I am now going out of my way to appease you". :confused:

(I am talking now about actual apologies now, not every "sorry" that has crept into the colloquial language and usually does not stand for a 'real' apology, but is just an expression.)

 

See how deeply those differences among us may be rooted? Where you see a simple friendly sign of good will, I may even see patronizing (depending of course on specifics and circumstances) and such apologies may even leave a really bitter taste in my mouth. I do not necessarily view it as humility (in fact, I am not even sure all of us here have a same view of what humility is and where are its reasonable boundaries; I am also not bound by any religious notions in this camp and do not necessarily consider it a virtue in all cases).

 

I do apologize when I feel I crossed the line, but in this medium it would usually be individually via PM and sometimes take a while before I 'chill' enough to do so, though. Then, in my view, it has much greater weight and meaning to it.

 

Sigh. We are so very different here, are we not? :)

Edited June 18, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Amy in TX]

I am a non-confrontational type who dislikes controversy intensely. I tend to stay out of arguments if humanly possible, lol. However, I'm butting in here to say that it's getting a little tiresome wading through all these discussions of EM's rhetorical style to get to her posts. Perhaps a separate thread could be started for that? :D

 

Seriously, could it not just be agreed that everyone's mode of expression is informed by culture, native language, and personality? I don't see what's so difficult about that. There's so much to be learned from people with diverse backrounds, that I hate to see that getting lost in extended arguments about modes of expression.

 

Just my $.02.

[Orthodox6]

Goodness, what an unwieldy thread! That underscores, however, how pertinent the original question, I surmise.

 

In a nutshell, I'll posit that homeschooling parents have fallen for the lure of school must be "fun", "amusing", "entertaining." In general, those descriptors run counter to rigour. (Visit most any online website overflowing with "educational games".) We snicker at public schools that teach in such mode, then turn around and do so ourselves.

 

Two-penny recommendations, then:

* Balance.

* Recognition that some topics require determination and straightforward "slogging through it" toward competency, or even mastery.

* Humility on the part of the parent. Eliminate the attitude that each child is a genius, or is gifted. If there were nothing but gifted children, then there would be nothing but gifted adults after the former grew up. I am comfortable with my children being born with a range of talents (and born lacking particular talents), just as I am comfortable with myself being strong and weak simultaneously.

* Select materials that fit the individual child's interests, learning style(s), and abilities. Unfortunately, that is the financially costly approach.

* Don't be afraid to assign a grade of "D", if that is what the work turned in merits. At the same time, be crystal clear to the child that a bad grade is not the same as a bad character. Most of the time, it means only that more time, and/or more effort is required for the topic.

* Invest a great deal of time in examining the current market for curricula. For any given curriculum, ponder recent reviews by actual users.

 

I doubt that I have written anything not already posted by somebody else.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Orthodox6

[Laura Corin]

So, even though I can use grammar and syntax correctly and have a good vocabulary, I am not sure whether everything I write comes across as intended - or whether I step on anybody's toes without meaning to. If so, accept my apologies.

 

Despite being a native English speaker with an American husband, I know that the tone of what I write here often doesn't come across: as a Brit I use words differently and the nuances get lost.

 

Laura

[Sebastian (a lady)]

As a total aside, I think you are referring to a level of control over language that no one on this board has. As much as I control what I mean and what I type, I have little to no control over how it is heard.

 

I think if you spend much time watching the exchanges on other parts of the board, let alone other internet sites or email lists, you'll see that there is always a level of disconnectedness involved in conversations reliant on distant typists, who may or may not share a common set of references or views or vocabulary, EVEN when they share a common native tongue.

 

I have had the experience of trying to have these conversations in another language. I was pretty comfortable in German, but still often cringed at how I had to reduce the unresistable arguement or counterpoint in my head into something far less satisfying when it came out of my mouth. It is draining. But I think that you do a more than adequate job of explaining yourself.

[StartingOver]

With 23 years of homeschooling under my belt, and a love of old books. I would definitely say yes.

 

I think that many of those joining homeschooling now, only want more than what the public school provides. Which is extremely less than just a few years ago. When I started homeschooling, I had something to prove. That I could do it, and do it right. There wasn't a feel good movement going on back then.

 

Just a simple example, when I go to look at McGuffey Eclectic Readers, they are labeled Primer - 6th. Many folks now will review them as for use from Kinder to 12th. My mother used these in school, and she read a primer a year, when she was done she went off to high school. Education back then wasn't as advanced as now, but they did learn a lot more.

 

Another example is Sonlight. If you go to the forums and ask about putting your 5 year old in Core K ( now A ), you will get a ton of people saying... "OH, No ! Do P 4/5 for K, and save Core K ( A ) for later." Yeah that wouldn't have flown 20 years ago. When I first found Sonlight there were no preschool cores, most everyone started Core K ( A ) with 5 year olds. No one that I am aware of "stretched it out", even. ( Well maybe if they were trying to combine two children. )

 

I know others will disagree with me, that is nothing new. I know I am old school. I clearly see the "Dumbing Down of our Nation ", and it makes me very sad !

 

Off to read the other posts now.

 

The Classical Movement as you put it, has been around for a very long time. But became very popular in 1999 when TWTM came out. Many, including me, have followed it for years. Very few follow it rigorously though. ;-)

Edited June 19, 2011 by StartingOver

[Ecclecticmum]

To answer the original question, yes and no. I believe there are certain curriculums/areas that are getting toned down/slowed, but also a number of curriculums are starting kids off sooner on something.

 

The different types of schools in general has varied quite a lot in few years, there are all sorts of schools available to the public.

 

The main problem is for those that prefer a more natural learning, montessori, waldorf or similar approaches seem to live in areas that only have general public schools. And the public schools are getting worse (my general opinion) as they regulate teachers more and more on what they cannot do, the teachers tend to give up and pass out standard texts.

 

Due to the large amount of homeschoolers that are looking for an "opposite the public school" approach (like the ones listed above) a lot of curriculums try to tailor for this, also to people whom have to homeschool for certain reasons, but don't want to. Hence the overload of fun, easy and more natural approach types.

 

FWIW I was told to use Sonlights P4/5 as they were apparently a year ahead, I just added other Kinder programs to it (Language Lessons, Sinagpore Math, Social Studies etc) and I think it is a great introduction to the various subjects, without it being too much for a mum whom has just started homeschooling (I also think the bible for P4/5 should be in P3/4, and the 3/4 in 4/5 but thats another subject)

 

Next year we are starting "real meaty subjects" including combing 3/4seperate math programs, 3 History programs, plus a number of others, I can never find curriculums that are"perfect" for us, and honestly am useless at making my own, so I just prefer to piece together curriculums to make it work for us.

 

Anyway, the point is, when the government gets involved with your schooling in any way, its going to cause problems. Governments by nature like forms, dotted t's & i's, streamlining, and numbers. Which doesn't bode well for schooling in general.

 

I believe the homeschool programs may be slowly (more slowly than schools) toning down there curriculum due to the fact that some people pull their kids from school, then find anything "at grade level" in the hs-ing community above their childs head. If surveys are done, its shows that most purchasers are purchasing a year under their supposed grade level, so curriculums re-overhaul, re-naming or re-tailoring their curriculum to suit this. i.e. demand equals supply.

 

It is unfortunate, in that people whom start hsing from the beginning are "dumbed down" but if they have a lovely forum like this one, it could soon be set right!

[Elizabeth in WA]

To answer the original question, yes and no. I believe there are certain curriculums/areas that are getting toned down/slowed, but also a number of curriculums are starting kids off sooner on something.

 

The different types of schools in general has varied quite a lot in few years, there are all sorts of schools available to the public.

 

The main problem is for those that prefer a more natural learning, montessori, waldorf or similar approaches seem to live in areas that only have general public schools. And the public schools are getting worse (my general opinion) as they regulate teachers more and more on what they cannot do, the teachers tend to give up and pass out standard texts.

 

Due to the large amount of homeschoolers that are looking for an "opposite the public school" approach (like the ones listed above) a lot of curriculums try to tailor for this, also to people whom have to homeschool for certain reasons, but don't want to. Hence the overload of fun, easy and more natural approach types.

 

FWIW I was told to use Sonlights P4/5 as they were apparently a year ahead, I just added other Kinder programs to it (Language Lessons, Sinagpore Math, Social Studies etc) and I think it is a great introduction to the various subjects, without it being too much for a mum whom has just started homeschooling (I also think the bible for P4/5 should be in P3/4, and the 3/4 in 4/5 but thats another subject)

 

Next year we are starting "real meaty subjects" including combing 3/4seperate math programs, 3 History programs, plus a number of others, I can never find curriculums that are"perfect" for us, and honestly am useless at making my own, so I just prefer to piece together curriculums to make it work for us.

 

Anyway, the point is, when the government gets involved with your schooling in any way, its going to cause problems. Governments by nature like forms, dotted t's & i's, streamlining, and numbers. Which doesn't bode well for schooling in general.

 

I believe the homeschool programs may be slowly (more slowly than schools) toning down there curriculum due to the fact that some people pull their kids from school, then find anything "at grade level" in the hs-ing community above their childs head. If surveys are done, its shows that most purchasers are purchasing a year under their supposed grade level, so curriculums re-overhaul, re-naming or re-tailoring their curriculum to suit this. i.e. demand equals supply.

 

It is unfortunate, in that people whom start hsing from the beginning are "dumbed down" but if they have a lovely forum like this one, it could soon be set right!

 

While I agree that this may be happening, public schools (and private and home schools as well) vary widely in quality both between and within schools. (See this thread at college confidential about math tracks. Some non-magnet public schools offer one or more years past AP Calc BC in their accelerated math tracks, while others offer only AP Calc AB or even nothing higher than precalc.) However, there is a tendency among some homeschoolers to compare themselves only to poor quality public schools. This may be because many people choose to homeschool because their district is poor, but if that is the case, then shouldn't you use something better than that poor quality school you pulled your child from as a quality comparison?

 

Now if you are looking for a high quality education in the first place, then that is a different question entirely, but for homeschoolers who pull their children from public schools because of the perceived poor quality of that school, it is strange to then use that same school, or similar schools, as a point of comparison for quality or grade level expectations purposes.

[EKS]

In a nutshell, I'll posit that homeschooling parents have fallen for the lure of school must be "fun", "amusing", "entertaining." In general, those descriptors run counter to rigour.

 

This. I also would suggest that many schools have fallen for the same idea.

[OnTheBrink]

 

But also, don't start telling parents if they outsource calculus or high school science or Latin or whatever, they aren't homeschoolers anymore or at least not for that subject. Let's not reduce homeschooling to that kind of restrictive definition.

 

Shouldn't we judge less and encourage each other more?

 

Thank you. I get SO tired of "If you do it my way, than clearly you're wrong!"

 

So, no one is willing to name any specific curriculum that are MORE or LESS rigorous. It seems that the issue of 'dumbing down' is more an issue of how the PARENT approaches homeschooling? Am I getting this right?

 

I think that would be hard to do in an objective way. Everyone's child is different; everyone has different goals and ways of meeting them. You may think the only way to impart XYZ to your child is with one specific program; I think the best way is with another. Yours might be "more rigorous" and mine might not be, but in the end our children get out of it what we're wanting them to. So, who's to say one was is "dumbed down" versus another? It's too subjective, IMO, to name names. Just as a hammer can be used to both drive a nail, it can also be used to pull one out. Curriculum is like a hammer; it can be used in different ways for different things.

 

LOL, well, yeah. But also why rain on someone else's parade? Why spoil their day? Why allow even a hint of superiority and inferiority?

 

 

Amen to that. Amen.

 

You tell 'em sister! I'm so tired of this pit in my stomach, this sense that I can't figure out if my ideas will shortchange her and ruin her or make her into a stunning individual. I'm weary of being afraid that I'm doing a poor job. It has gotten really bad this year, going into the junior high and high school stuff, in a way I wouldn't have anticipated.

 

 

You know, I feel the same way. I hs'd my son STARTING in high school and feel less confident now, after schooling my daughter her whole life, than I did then. Back then, I was married, wasn't concerned about finances and had the luxury of being home every day. I had a lot of support from friends whose kids were the same age or older than my son. I had a mentor I could trust.

 

Now, I don't have that. I'm single, I have to work part time in the evenings, finances are ALWAYS a concern now, and the people I know who are still homeschooling are more concerned about making sure I know how imperfect I am (and how perfect they and their kids are) and how sorry they are for me. My mentor is terminally ill and she has moved away. I never see her any more and wouldn't be relying on her help now, anyway, as she's battling cancer. I am terrified that I'm screwing everything up. Do I need encouragement. Oh yeah. I don't need other people's "my kids would hate your plans!" or "my kid read that in 4th grade and you're wanting to use it NOW?" garbage.

 

I feel completely alone in this.

 

:thumbup: Great post, Holly.

 

We can't all give our children the same things. Each of us can, however, give our children our individual best.

 

And that's likely to be a whole lot more than they'd get elsewhere.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Two-penny recommendations, then:

* Balance.

* Recognition that some topics require determination and straightforward "slogging through it" toward competency, or even mastery.

* Humility on the part of the parent. Eliminate the attitude that each child is a genius, or is gifted. If there were nothing but gifted children, then there would be nothing but gifted adults after the former grew up. I am comfortable with my children being born with a range of talents (and born lacking particular talents), just as I am comfortable with myself being strong and weak simultaneously.

* Select materials that fit the individual child's interests, learning style(s), and abilities. Unfortunately, that is the financially costly approach.

* Don't be afraid to assign a grade of "D", if that is what the work turned in merits. At the same time, be crystal clear to the child that a bad grade is not the same as a bad character. Most of the time, it means only that more time, and/or more effort is required for the topic.

* Invest a great deal of time in examining the current market for curricula. For any given curriculum, ponder recent reviews by actual users.

 

I doubt that I have written anything not already posted by somebody else.

 

Very well put.

[Nan in Mass]

So-

 

I have used and am using things that other people, even other governments, consider middle school material in high school. And I have used and am using things that other people consider too hard for high school. Asta made a good point in my apology thread - you have to meet your children where they are and go forward from there. I would add that you have to meet yourself where *you* are and go forward from there, also, and you have to meet your community where *it* is, and you have to work within the limitations of your resources.

 

Every year, I ask myself the following questions when I choose the level of materials we are using:

 

Is the public school dangerous for this child?

Are there non-academic reasons this child should not go to the public school?

Would this child would get a better education at the public school than at home?

 

Once I have eliminated public school as an option, I think about private school and eliminate that. Then I ask:

 

Is there a comprehensive online or correspondence option that would do a better job than I can? (I can individualize and customize, be more flexible and sensitive, and there are no issues of competition or atmousphere, but I am not a knowledgable or experienced teacher and there is no class interaction.)

Can we do it? (money and scheduling issues)

 

Once I eliminate that, I ask myself the same question for each subject. Eventually, I get down to a number that I am doing at home, that I either have to do at home or have decided would be better done at home. At that point, I ask:

 

How much emphasis do I want to give this subject this year? (Do I want it to be a thinking subject or a check-off-the-box subject? How much is the child going to need these skills and this content? How behind or ahead is he? How much time and energy do I have for this?)

How much emphasis does my child want to give this subject this year? (How interested is he? How much time and energy is he willing to put into this? Will he take it and run or just be cooperative or is he going to fight me?)

Where is the child as far as skills go?

Where is the child as far as content goes? (These two are often different and that difference is one of the problems when choosing how we are going to do a subject.)

Where does this start? (You have to start where the child is. You can try to go forward from there fast if you want to, but you have to start where he is.)

Where does this end? (I think about my goals for the year.)

How fast does it go? (I like things that have you doing the same procedure over and over getting better each time because then I needn't worry about any of this. They are harder to assess, though.)

Where am I as far as skills go?

Where am I as far as content goes? (This matter because it is hard for me to teach and help if I don't know the material.)

How much prep work is involved? Can I do it? Do I have time to do it?

Is this going to involve me discussing things or assessing things? Can I do it? Do I have time to do it?

How fast is this going to go? Can we keep up?

How much time is this going to take? Do we have that much time? Does that match how I have decided to emphasize or not emphasize this subject? (I mostly adjust emphasis by adjusting time. I don't pay much attention to effort involved because I expect mine to be able to work hard for all the hours that I expect them to devote to school. This would be different with different children, though.)

Does this contain thinking questions? Is this going to require my child to create things? (Written work rather than multiple choice questions, word problems as opposed to following an algorithm, primary sources rather than secondary sources, etc.)

Does it explain HOW to do these things or does it assume my child already knows how to do them or does it assume everyone can naturally do them? (Any of the three might be appropriate under certain circumstances. I just need to make sure it matches what I want.)

Can I assess my child's work or do I need to ask somebody else to do that?

Can I make useful comments that will help him to improve or do I need to ask somebody else to do that?

Can I be a good discussion partner or do I need to find somebody else to do that?

Is there anyone else in his circle who likes this and add to it, anybody to share this with?

Is there any way for him to show off his hard work to somebody other than me?

Will he be able to use what he learns someplace else in the immediate future? (Even in another subject is helpful.)

 

Once I've gone through all that, I ask a final question, because we are always pressed for time:

 

Is there any way I can combine this with something else? (Mostly thinking skills here.)

Could anything else I am trying to accomplish be practised here instead of there? As well as there?

Is there a more efficient way to accomplish this?

 

(I probably forgot some things. It would be nice if other people added to this list.)

 

Anyway, OnTheBrink has found that once she went through these questions, most of her choices were eliminated. We should probably all be asking each other, before we offer advice, whether the person is asking for HELP DOING the only things they are able to do, or whether they are asking for HELP CHOOSING something, help figuring out what choices are out there and answering some of the above questions and whatever other ones they have. We can even ask them straight out which they want.

 

-Nan

[Guest]

That's a helpful idea, Nan.

 

It would also be tremendously helpful if posters could present alternates, views, experiences, or ideas without condemning what others have presented.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

I want to say "Welcome, Beth!" but I see you've been registered here for a few years :lol:. From looking at your signature, I bet you have some helpful experiences you could share on the boards.

 

 

Thanks Colleen, I am a newbie--in a way. I used to post here a long time ago, and then I got really busy with teaching. So this summer is the first time in a long time that I've had lots of free time to get on the boards; and so I'm here because I'm been missing homeschooling and just wanted to see what the latest discussions are about these days.

 

Here is what I meant when I said, "I feel sad for the "runaround schoolers." As I so often do, I spoke with insensitivity! :) Sorry! I don't have any problem at all with outsourcing some classes, its just that those who never take the time to study some of the subjects with their kids and read together, etc. are simply missing out on the part of the experience that was sooo valuable and exciting for our family.

 

I guess it sounds condescending and I am really sorry for that. But so many of the runaround schoolers I have encountered are very, very frustrated. So I worry about them. But then again, many of the stay at home all day every day homeschoolers probably have a few problems we should worry about too. LOL So I should just go back to minding my own business. :)

 

Happy summer, y'all!

[Beth in Mint Hill]

:iagree:

I'm not sure why someone would "feel sad" for those who choose a different path, when those people may in fact be perfectly happy with their choices. Maybe some of those "runaround schoolers" feel sad for kids stuck at home all day. ;)

.... If people want to limit the term "homeschooling" to those who school at home with Mom doing most of the teaching, then I'd be happy to adopt another term. I quite like Nan's idea of "indy educators" because that's actually a lot more descriptive of what we do.

Jackie

 

I actually think this is a great idea! Because what many new home schoolers are doing these days, at least around me, is definitely not home schooling. And I will dare to say that I believe they are missing out on a lot of very valuable learning by not staying home and reading a little more. \:)

 

But this is not to say that there is one right way to do it, not at all. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with hiring some tutors, going on outings, etc, etc. I have just noticed an unhealthy tendency for the moms to never have time to read a book with their kids, and this definitely doesn't facilitate a classical education. And that's what I thought this forum was all about.

 

"Maybe some of those "runaround schoolers" feel sad for kids stuck at home all day. ;)"

So true!! I agree that there are some on either side of the extreme.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

Aw, Janice, :grouphug: I'm sure you know this, but I just want to say it here - it wasn't meant to be a hint to you and whoever else seemed to understand Beth the same as you previously did - I was just trying to help Beth along, in case she meant it the way I thought she did.

 

Janice, you are one classy lady to come here and publicly apologize.

 

 

Hi Janice!

No problem. I didn't take offense.

 

and

 

Colleen, Thanks for the help. I needed that. ;) It has been a while since I've discussed things on a board, and so I forgot that I need to be much more careful in the way I word things.

 

 

But as to all these other issues being raised here... don't we need to allow each other to critique certain educational methods, books and curriculum without taking it personally!? How else are we going to learn and improve. Remember if someone criticizes a program that you are participating in, it isn't an attack upon you, its a criticism of the program.

[Colleen in NS]

We should probably all be asking each other, before we offer advice, whether the person is asking for HELP DOING the only things they are able to do, or whether they are asking for HELP CHOOSING something, help figuring out what choices are out there and answering some of the above questions and whatever other ones they have. We can even ask them straight out which they want.

 

Excellent idea! And you know what, this is the kind of advice I got when I bombarded the science self-teaching guides (STG) thread with questions the other day. People offered the good, the bad, the ugly to think about. And forced me to ask myself questions and consider concepts I'd never have thought of. It made me consider what exactly I wanted (still don't know yet, but now my thinking has a bigger grid to hang info. on) - just like your last sentence above. So then when I do know what I want, I can come back and look for how to fulfill that.

 

It would also be tremendously helpful if posters could present alternates, views, experiences, or ideas without condemning what others have presented.

 

This is ideal in a one-on-one or specialized group conversation, but it's hard to work out here on a wide-open internet forum - the ideal becomes more subjective and dependent on thousands of readers. I think most posters have done pretty well with this over the years, though.

[Colleen in NS]

So I should just go back to minding my own business.

 

Hmmm....don't hide - I hope we hear from you some more here!!!!

 

And I will dare to say that I believe they are missing out on a lot of very valuable learning by not staying home and reading a little more.

 

I have just noticed an unhealthy tendency for the moms to never have time to read a book with their kids, and this definitely doesn't facilitate a classical education. And that's what I thought this forum was all about.

 

People like you could be a great encouragement to people like me - I started doing a classical education with my kids eight years ago. So, pretty new at this, I guess. I read the old boards and gleaned a lot of help there. The new boards are great, too, but I do have to work harder to discern which posters I can glean from. Thank you for "daring to say what you believe" - nothing wrong with saying what you believe here. I think you're going to be a poster I will pay close attention to. :D

 

But as to all these other issues being raised here... don't we need to allow each other to critique certain educational methods, books and curriculum without taking it personally!? How else are we going to learn and improve. Remember if someone criticizes a program that you are participating in, it isn't an attack upon you, its a criticism of the program.

 

:iagree:

 

As for the original "dumbing-down" question - I just had a bunch of questions answered on the self-teaching guides thread (thank you who read my plea here and went over there!). So it appears that maybe the STG are dumbed-down in the eyes of some. But maybe not in the eyes of others. I'm not sure yet what I think, but I did receive some excellent info. there to think about. I did NOT take the info. there as condemnation, even though I could have taken some passages from posters as harsh condemnation of the STG. And even if they were outright condemnation, so what? They would be condemning BOOKS, not me. It was fabulous to receive all that feedback.

[NCMom]

...

Edited June 20, 2011 by Georgia in NC
nevermind

[Storm Bay]

As a total aside, I think you are referring to a level of control over language that no one on this board has. As much as I control what I mean and what I type, I have little to no control over how it is heard.

.

Correct. You can't hear tone of voice when you read. That said, there are a few people who offend many with how they write, but that does not include Regentrude.

With 23 years of homeschooling under my belt, and a love of old books. I would definitely say yes.

 

 

I know others will disagree with me, that is nothing new. I know I am old school. I clearly see the "Dumbing Down of our Nation ", and it makes me very sad !

 

;-)

Homeschooling has changed, some for the worse and some for the better. The purpose has changed, too, and this is what I meant about more people doing it who are followers rather than innovators trying to make a point. Of course, not everyone who is not doing it for the purposes homeschooling pioneers did is a follower, but they're not all doing it for the same reasons those of you who were homeschooling 20+ years ago were. In fact, I was surprised when I started homeschooling because I was expecting more people who were like those who were doing ot 20+ years ago.

 

Thank you. I get SO tired of "If you do it my way, than clearly you're wrong!"

 

 

 

I think that would be hard to do in an objective way. Everyone's child is different; everyone has different goals and ways of meeting them. You may think the only way to impart XYZ to your child is with one specific program; I think the best way is with another. Yours might be "more rigorous" and mine might not be, but in the end our children get out of it what we're wanting them to. So, who's to say one was is "dumbed down" versus another? It's too subjective, IMO, to name names. Just as a hammer can be used to both drive a nail, it can also be used to pull one out. Curriculum is like a hammer; it can be used in different ways for different things.

I feel completely alone in this.

 

Very well put.

 

I think we need to look at the big picture. Homeschooling has changed, and there are different goals for different people. Children have different needs, different learning styles and different aptitudes (that last one may not be PC but it is factual.)

 

What bothers me isn't so much the range of rigourous vs non rigourous materials as how many people I see are just following a group and not taking the time to really think through what's best for their dc and why. To me that is the biggest part of dumbing things down, but I DON'T think that it applies to everyone who doesn't do classical and/or rigourous materials. However, there is a difference between discussing several different well done curricula which serve different dc better and discussing things that are poorly done knock-offs, etc. Yes, a good teacher can do a lot even if the curricula isn't well done, but having a good curricula is always a plus. I think that the first place I learned this was teaching piano, which I did before I had dc and was homeschooling. It has the same principles. I can teach talented, highly motivated piano students with a number of different method books and teach them to play well by supplementing and sound pedagogy, but for most dc choosing a well done one is important, even if I don't choose the same one for everyone. Also, the talented dc will never reach their potential if they don't end up learning music which challenges them, and to do that they need lots of technique training (the boring stuff), theory, ear training, etc, etc. I can to what my teacher did and teach much of that by rote, but not forever. The same thing holds with homeschooling.

 

I do find it frustrating when I meet parents, whether they homeschool or send their dc to public/parochial/private/charter school is when their primary decision making factor is because their dc like it and are having fun. I'm all for having some fun, and if learning can be enjoyable it helps, but a well balanced, well thought through education is rarely going to be all fun for dc, and certainly not fun all of the time. There are things dc find fun that are not beneficial and that can even be dangerous or detrimental (eg jumping on their beds, watching all the TV they want, etc.)

 

As for the range in abilities, this is why there is both an AL & a SN forum here (I've posted on both.)

 

So-

 

Every year, I ask myself the following questions when I choose the level of materials we are using:

 

Anyway, OnTheBrink has found that once she went through these questions, most of her choices were eliminated. We should probably all be asking each other, before we offer advice, whether the person is asking for HELP DOING the only things they are able to do, or whether they are asking for HELP CHOOSING something, help figuring out what choices are out there and answering some of the above questions and whatever other ones they have. We can even ask them straight out which they want.

 

-Nan

 

Nan has illusrated my point beautifully by providing the list of questions she asks herself every year. If every parent thought through what was best for their dc with questions like this wouldn't it be wonderful? Not that any of us are perfect or are always going to answer these questions perfectly, but what a difference it would make!

 

But this is not to say that there is one right way to do it, not at all. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with hiring some tutors, going on outings, etc, etc. I have just noticed an unhealthy tendency for the moms to never have time to read a book with their kids, and this definitely doesn't facilitate a classical education. And that's what I thought this forum was all about.

 

"Maybe some of those "runaround schoolers" feel sad for kids stuck at home all day. ;)"

So true!! I agree that there are some on either side of the extreme.

 

I agree that some homeschoolers do a lot more running around than facilitates a good scholastic education, but I should add that not all of us do pure classical homeschooling. I wanted to, but given my eldest it did not work here, so we do eclectic homeschooling with a classical base, or did. Lately it's been changing again, but I still use WTM suggestions, etc, and so consider myself part of this forum. Someday we may move into a more classical approach again, but I have yet to see another homeschooling forum as helpful to me. Plus I've been on this long enough to know a number of people whose advice regularly works for one or more of my dc, whether it be curricula or other aspects of homeschooling.:001_smile:

Edited June 23, 2011 by Karin

[mrshomework]

I recently purchased a used older curriculum from 2001 and compared it to the new curriculum offered by the company. I think it has "dumbed down". I am glad I got a hold of the old curriculum I like the choices they had in 2001 over 2011. I can see how they have changed the books in the curriculum to much simpler books. I prefer not to say what company it is. They label it as more teacher friendly but it seems to be more about simplifying the curriculum which in turn is "dumbing down", IMO.

[SeekingHim77]

Hi all! What a great discussion! I read these forums often but have never posted myself. I had to come out of "lurk mode" however to comment on a few things.

 

One was a post by someone waaaaaaaaaaaay back at the beginning. I had it copied and pasted but lost it and am not going to search for it on this really long thread!

 

The comment referred to the "fear mongering" that curriculum providers, co-ops, online classes, etc. are using to sell their products. I have really been thinking alot about this lately and it is so true! I think it's shameful to play upon the fears of loving mothers who want to provide the best education for their children. I'm thankful for the options-just think the marketing of them should be handled in a way that is good for all involved and not just the seller.

 

The other comment that brought me out of hiding was someone stated Sarita Holzman's daughter went to public school for highschool. I had to google that and found the info. right on Sonlight's website. Not only did her daughter attend public highschool but all of her children have returned to public school for highschool! While that is a personal choice for her family, it does impact my opinion of their homeschooling materials.

 

This is my 9th year homeschooling and I'm finding that the oldies really are the goodies. New homeschoolers are plagued with "curriculum envy"-feeling that the next thing on the market or the curriculum their friend has will transform their homeschool. This is simply not the case. While a philosophy of education (along with curriculum and books chosen that support that philosophy) can and will change your homeschool, a certain curriculum is never the answer. Over and over again, I have tried the "newest, greatest thing" only to return to the originial homeschooling methods and books that first spoke to my heart.

 

This has been a fascinating discussion!

 

Blessings,

Melanie

[Donna T.]

This is one of the best threads ever! Bumping it up to be able to find it quickly. :)

[Nan in Mass]

I had completely forgotten about this thread. What is it that struck you about it? (Not that I am saying it wasn't a great thread. I have a horrible memory and SO much has happened since then. Perhaps I should reread it lol.)

[Butter]

I know this is a ridiculously old thread, but I have something to add. We use Calvert. Melody did Calvert 7th grade three years ago. I noticed that they have changed the literature selections since then. They have switched to books that are much easier. That was a bit disappointing. I know they are aligning to the Common Core or at least have said stuff about it. I don't know how much will change.

[GailV]

This is one of the best threads ever! Bumping it up to be able to find it quickly. :)

 

 

I saw the title and thought, "wasn't there a really good discussion about this a while back?" Then I opened the thread and saw it IS the discussion. :)

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I know this is a ridiculously old thread, but I have something to add. We use Calvert. Melody did Calvert 7th grade three years ago. I noticed that they have changed the literature selections since then. They have switched to books that are much easier. That was a bit disappointing. I know they are aligning to the Common Core or at least have said stuff about it. I don't know how much will change.

You know I noticed this just a few months ago. We used Calvert in 2005-2006 school year and I felt it was a wonderful curriculum. Went looking at it a few months ago and was wondering what happened....it looks much different then what I remember.

[Lilaclady]

This is a great thread. Thanks for bringing it back up.

[FloridaLisa]

You know I noticed this just a few months ago. We used Calvert in 2005-2006 school year and I felt it was a wonderful curriculum. Went looking at it a few months ago and was wondering what happened....it looks much different then what I remember.

 

 

Does it have anything to do with Calvert being adopted by state as a viable online public school option? Have they conformed

to what states are wanting for their students?

[Butter]

Does it have anything to do with Calvert being adopted by state as a viable online public school option? Have they conformed

to what states are wanting for their students?

 

 

I don't think so. They were already well-entrenched in the virtual school thing before Melody did 7th grade. Honestly, I've only seen these changes since they started talking about Common Core and also since they got the large financial investment from a company in Baltimore (though supposedly, the homeschool curriculum is supposed to still be exactly what they use in the day school, so obviously they are reducing the difficulty level in the day school, too, for some reason).

[SarahW]

I never read this thread. As a relative newbie who is experiencing what they are discussing is so interesting to me.

 

:iagree: I love reading old thread like these.

 

 

Not to rehash, but I sorta like the "I hate..." topics. When I'm considering buying a book on Amazon I will usually make sure to read the 1-star reviews. I originally got to this forum because I was researching curriculum and I found a curriculum provider who slammed the caveman-history-book-pretending-to-be-Christian. Sometimes the 1-star "this is horrible" reviews tells me much more about what I need to know than a 5-star "sweet and happy" review. It's up to me to evaluate the worth of the "hate" critiques, and it's no skin off my back if I agree with it or not.

[Finnella]

I'm glad this was bumped; it was interesting for a relative newcomer to homeschooling. Hearing from more experienced homeschoolers was particularly useful for me, especially since we tend to stay at home rather than run around town. I was planning to outsource high school Spanish when we got there, but I've recently learned our CC is quite weak in foreign language instruction.

 

I'm glad posters have stayed away from criticizing particular curriculum choices. I know my math choice is often unpopular, but it's worked for my DS. (If I were homeschooling his older brother, I'd probably have him using something else.)

[wingedradical]

When I started homeschooling ('79) there was Calvert (up til 8th grade) and any textbooks you could find. At least, that is all I knew of. As for Christian publishers, there were only ABeka, BJU and ACE and (maybe AlphaOmega) that I knew of at the time. ABeka refused outright to sell to homeschoolers and made schools sign papers saying they would not resell to us. It wasn't until it became obvious that they weren't going to win with their anti-homeschooling stance (and maybewhen they decided thre was money to be made) that they became homeschool friendly. ACE would sell stuff, but only the entire package. BJU was always homeschool friendly, although I, myself, have other issues with them. So, with my oldest son used an eclectic textbooks, great books, the library and lots of conversations. We did biology and physics but not chemistry, or at least not lab chemistry. My husband has a double degree in math and physics, so that was helpful. The chemistry thing was just too expensive. He was able to get into university by strength of a very good ACT score and homemade transcript.

 

My children are 15 years apart. So, one graduated in '88 and the other was ready for "kindergarten" in 1989. By that time, there was much more. Lots of programs, though not by today's standards. KONOS, CLA, Rod & Staff, Weaver, BJU, ABecka, a few others. We actually did KONOS although in a very grammatical way -- many drills. He could already read (having learned at 4), so we used some graded readers but mostly the library. For math, we used secular texts (cheaper). I have to confess - I never taught either son spelling. For Jr. High, used Trisms, secular math, the library and throughout his schooling, we made good use of Kathryn Stouts Compostion book along with Warriner Grammer. High School - did our own thing, used a co-op for some science. Oh, yes, also used Nance's Logic (very frustrating so I switched to a secular one I can't recall name of), something called the Book (or Art) of Argument (I can't remember which), etc. Apologia came out when he was in high school. We tried using the first addition - it was horrible and I had to supplement a lot. I sent him to a co-op for chemistry. I don't think we did a very good job on it, though. I mean, we did our part at home as best we could but the co-op portion was pretty bad so all of it was.

 

Classical Homeschooling began to become popular when DS2 was in high school though very few people I knew locally used it besides me -- only one family, actually. I was living in the Ozarks then, so maybe that helps explain it, lol. I went to the first National Classical Schooling Convention in 1997. Not being Reformed, I felt a bit like a Jew in Mecca.

 

Now I am homeschooling foster. I see an amazing assortment of curriculum out there, but most of the people I have met locally in AZ just seem to find a system and insert their child into it. Kind of like public school only they are doing it at home. They don't seem to have an educational philosophy. They don't seem to spend a lot of time trying to find what is best for their teaching style or their child's learning style. They tend to depend on co-ops for things they don't feel comfortable with. To be honest, between park days (all winter long here) and co-ops, I don't see how they get things done. I guess it is good that the coops are there, but I haven't seen a situation where I thought the child was getting the equivelent to what s/he would get in regular school. I have seen it done well in the home or when parents "barter" skills with people they know.

 

So, from my point of view, FWIW, the availabiity of lots of curriculum and of co-ops seems to make parents less involved in their children's education and less likely to learn along with their children I HAD to learn biology - better than I had before, which wasn't well, to teach it). I HAD to learn literature. I'd read some great literature, of course, but I'd never read Homer, Virgil, or Dante and I'd only ever made it through one of Shakespeare's plays - Hamlet. I think that I was actually learning along with them improved my children's educations.

 

So, I think in many circles, home education has gone downhill, But I don't think easy curriculum is to blame in and of itself. It's just that people fall into not being as involved. In the end, it is parents and teachers that light the spark, not curricula.

 

On the other hand, neither of my children had an AP course. They probably had honors history and literature if I'd thought about putting it on their transcripts. But how would I have proved that? Anyway, it means very little (except the weight). My foster was taking honors English before coming here and the class consisted of reading books about zombies and writing essays and stories about them. She was getting a good grade and believe me, she can't write all that well. I think what I'm doing will prepare her a bit more than zombie books.

[laughing lioness]

Another old timer here. If you are talking "homeschool" curriculum than I think there's a real glut on the market. It's nice to have choices, but it many ways it's almost too much to sort through. I really limit myself to what I'll look at and consider. We stick with some tried and true items and they work. Some of the new stuff is really great stuff - others, not so much and I find it very wearying to have to sort through. otoh, I have seen some amazing stuff recently (SuperCharged Science comes to mind) that really is exciting and blows me away with it's creativity, presentation and content.

 

I find lots of resources and info outside of the "homeschooling community". We also do outsourcing. The things I'm good at my dc are often good at. The things I'm not good at they generally aren't. I don't see any problem with finding resources for them to shore up my, and their, areas of weakness. I've been told recently that I don't really homeschool because of this. The fact that I am the one overseeing and mentoring my kids education, rather than handing it over to a bureaucrat, leaves me feeling a bit cynical in light of this statement.

 

I also see schooling in general is changing- There was a recent book out titled Roam schooling or virtual schooling and they don't consider themselves homeschoolers- they claim to be p.s ers- but thier kids are only IN school 2 days a week. They use tutors, co-ops and on-line stuff in addition to open enrollment. Sounds a lot like what some of us do.

 

There are more options now both inside and outside of the homeschool bubble. Like it's always been, you just have to look for them.

[bethben]

I've heard the term "parent directed education" instead of "homeschooling". It gives the people who use outside resources a way to define themselves. I have my son doing two online classes- mostly those classes that need discussion. Someday, I'd like to learn what he is learning and have a small discussion class, but I'm not sure it would work since there's a small group of kids his age and an even smaller group of those willing to do what we're doing. We live in a small town where most of the people homeschooling do so because they want to protect their children's faith and innocence in a very liberal school district. I have no problem farming out classes I can't teach to a rigorous degree. I'm glad to have the choice. I have quite a bit on my plate already.

 

Beth

[jhschool]

The BJU books are not dumbed down I don't think.

 

The Abeka Physics and Chemistry book are not either. (You have

to use the supplement for AP Chem.)

 

We use Spielvogel also for History--it doesn't seem dumbed down, but that

is not a Homeschool book. I don't know if it

is dumbed down from what it might have been before.

 

Life of Fred are not dumbed down. But they might not

be specifically for homeschoolers.

 

I haven't experienced any yet that seem dumbed down. But I have

limited experiences.

 

I guess I don't know what they were like before but the above all seem

very complete.

[Storm Bay]

This is a major hot button for me.

Yes, in answer to the Op. Curriculum has become dumbed down.

Is it no wonder the huge gap in scores between homeschool students and their public school peers is getting more narrow each year.

 

The gap is changing in general, but it's not just the plethora of dumbed down curricula, it's also the change in who homeschools as it's become more popular. Not everyone is homeschooling to get a better/deeper/more challenging education anymore. If they were, the easier curricula wouldn't last. I think some of it can be amazing for certain dc who have learning challenges, but that's usually material that's been well though through.

 

As for me, I'm happy with more choices as my son is going to specialize in high school. As a result, I'm compromising my personal standards in history so he can spend more time in music and still get great choices in math, science, English, etc. Since he's also pushing to graduate from ps, I'm also calling our classes by the ps names so that he can switch in late high school if that's what we decide. We live in a school district where kids can transfer partway though high school, but they are only set up to give credit for classes they teach, which is due in part to their computer system which handles that.