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Just curious - Are homeschool curriculums dumbing down like ps ones?...


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:)

Oh yeah. Even if you guys feel as though you are running around like headless chooks a lot of the time, I feel comforted to know that I'll be just like you all when I've grown up a bit (a lot) further!

 

:cheers2:

Rosie

 

Rosie, are you peeping through my windows while I try to teach my sons how to do laundry????? :D I think you just described the yesterday me perfectly!

 

Sometime we ought to have a homeschool discussion that goes like this: How to get boys to willingly, brush teeth, shower regularly, do something besides eat and ask to eat ALL THE TIME, and laundry. Seriously, I'm pretty certain that if principles of laundry were on the ACT, my boys would flunk the test!!!!

 

Faith

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Parents come to homeschool boards for encouragement; I'm sure they can obtain criticism elsewhere. If I could find no other way to be really happy with the info I was getting on a particular curriculum than to start a thread about hating it, then I'd do what my mother taught me and say nothing at all. I think that's a valid option.

 

I don't come here for encouragement. Everywhere else you find homeschool encouragement... all the books, speakers, websites. Few of them have actual information, but they all specialize in encouragement. I can get that elsewhere.

 

I guess I see a difference between and "I hate..." curriculum thread and a rational discussion of the differences in S&S and teaching effectiveness between different curriculum. If you are discourraged by the latter, you shouldn't open them.

 

LOL, well, yeah. But also why rain on someone else's parade? Why spoil their day? Why allow even a hint of superiority and inferiority?

 

But the superiority/inferiority is in the eyes of the reader. A rational comparison (I think of something like the TOC comparison for Apologia Bio versus the other textbook that was posted recently) is just facts. It is not a judgement on anyone who is using Apologia.

 

When people who like a program have equally valid detailed reasons for liking "jump in", then, it paints a wider picture of the program. Maybe the "hater" just hit a road bump and needed help but didn't know to ask for help.

You know, just because someone else couldn't figure out how to successful use the product doesn't mean it will not work for you if you get information how to use it.

 

Again, there is a difference between a thread in which someone vents and a thread in which someone is asking for a comparison about different choices for a subject. There is no need for a line by line argument in the second type of thread, but that is what happens every time. If there is a glaring error about the facts of the curriculum (it does include that chapter, etc.,) obvisouly correct that, but posting long lists of testimonials from happy users and excepts from the website and the author and arguing with anecdotal experiences isn't necessary. Just say that you do like it for X reason and don't read the negative reviews if they bother you.

 

There are objective facts about the content of materials. More homeschoolers should use those to help make their decisions, and I appreciate the threads that discuss what may be missing in some curriculum. I don't think most homeschool moms have enough information to make these decisions on their own in every single subject area, so it is nice to pool our wisdom. It's a shame that a few emotional people get in the way of that.

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Parents come to homeschool boards for encouragement; I'm sure they can obtain criticism elsewhere.

But I don't think people are suggesting criticizing, for example, YOUR approach. I am encouraged BY a frank discussion of quality materials. I don't need to say, ooh, Julie, Nan, Angela, Ester Maria, you're so neat. That's implied by the fact that I am listening to you! I feel encouraged by the idea of listening in to some loose sisterhood, not that anyone needs to approve of me, or that I must approve others. Other than that, I'm not really looking for emotional support. I find the discussions here more than suffice for my purposes.

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I don't come here for encouragement. Everywhere else you find homeschool encouragement... all the books, speakers, websites. Few of them have actual information, but they all specialize in encouragement. I can get that elsewhere.

 

 

But the superiority/inferiority is in the eyes of the reader. A rational comparison (I think of something like the TOC comparison for Apologia Bio versus the other textbook that was posted recently) is just facts. It is not a judgement on anyone who is using Apologia.

 

...

 

There are objective facts about the content of materials. More homeschoolers should use those to help make their decisions, and I appreciate the threads that discuss what may be missing in some curriculum. I don't think most homeschool moms have enough information to make these decisions on their own in every single subject area, so it is nice to pool our wisdom. It's a shame that a few emotional people get in the way of that.

 

:iagree:

Thanks for saying this so well.

Encouragement is nice - but sometimes facts are much more useful. I come here for information. I have profited immensely by threads comparing curricula - it has saved me time, detours and wrong choices.

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Well, at the risk of offending a lot of people, I think the answer is yes. I think that the homeschooling market is being flooded with "easy to teach," "easy to understand," "co-op friendly," "teacher-free computer" products. The products are not the same as what I saw when I first started homeschooling (which, granted, were limited. ;) ) The attempt to sever the homeschooling teacher completely befuddles me.

 

I wonder if part of the issue here is less about "dumbing down" and more about the quest for "measurable results" that seems to be the focus of public education which may then trickle down into homeschooling curricula. It seems that so many people focus on short term testing numbers so that the greater picture of developing deeper, critical thought is lost.

 

Consider music: many have argued that musical studies benefit students in the long term. Yet music is not one of those things that can be measured quantitatively via fill in the bubble exams. How long will any arts programs last under austerity cuts faced by public school systems when these programs cannot be justified via "measurable results"? Are homeschoolers also falling into this trap?

 

I think both of these have merit. While there are still some rigourous curricula choices out there, as well as the option to customize, etc, there has been a flood of easier things that do have lower standards (I've seen them and won't name names.) That said, not every easy to teach thing is easy to do, either. There are some rigourous things that do help make the basic teaching easier. That said, some of these programs are very helpful for dc with learning issues and/or special needs, although not all of these easy ones are equally good at addressing them.

 

As homeschooling has grown it has attracted more people who are more followers than rebels/innovators, etc. I don't mean rebels in a negative sense, but there are more people who follow what their homeschooling friends/peers do rather than really work at finding the best for their kids. There is also a push to do certain things to prepare dc for college, and sometimes it's hard to fit everything in at a top level with everything our dc do. This is high school, of course.

 

Because there are so many posts already, I have only read a few. Normally I read all before posting, but wanted to address this very important question.

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I don't come here for encouragement. Everywhere else you find homeschool encouragement... all the books, speakers, websites. Few of them have actual information, but they all specialize in encouragement. I can get that elsewhere.

Well, maybe you can just keep in mind that some of us *do* come here for encouragement. I am glad for you. But homeschooling is still criticized heavily in some areas, just as it always has been in this heavily public-schooled, warden-of-education culture.

 

I guess I see a difference between and "I hate..." curriculum thread and a rational discussion of the differences in S&S and teaching effectiveness between different curriculum. If you are discourraged by the latter, you shouldn't open them.

When did I ever say I didn't want the latter. That was my whole point.

 

There is a big difference between saying that a curriculum didn't work for you or for your kid(s), and why; versus the posts which trash a program or an approach, saying that it has nothing of value to offer anyone, it is badly put together, it is faulty pedagogy, no one can learn anything using it, you're doing your kids a disservice or doing something invalid if you use it, etc.

Thank you. Maybe you have explained it more clearly than I.

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Well, maybe you can just keep in mind that some of us *do* come here for encouragement. I am glad for you. But homeschooling is still criticized heavily in some areas, just as it always has been in this heavily public-schooled, warden-of-education culture.

 

I'm not saying we don't need encouragement. I'm just saying that that seems to be the purpose of every other homeschool board, book, conference, etc. out there. Why can't there be one place where we can talk about the hard choices we have to make between materials? :)

 

And if you want encouragement and I want facts, why can't they both exist? I can make statements about curriculum in objective terms, and you can not read criticism of your own homeschool into those statements. If both sides take some care, it should work out fine.

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The turn this thread has taken reminds me of the current debate over the use of the word "retarded" as an insult. In many people's minds, it is perfectly acceptable to use this word because it "simply" means developmentally delayed, there is nothing wrong with that, it's a fact, and therefore no matter the circumstances under which you use it, it has a neutral meaning.

 

That doesn't fly. Like many of the words used in making sweeping condemnations on this board, "retarded" has accrued other cultural meanings and implications that cannot be waved away because you wish to use them in a neutral fashion. This doesn't mean you can't use those words, or that anyone is trying to censor you. It means you should be aware that the words you're using have connotations, and that people can be understandably upset by those connotations, not because they are inherently overly emotional or insecure or fragile.

 

And being tactful does not mean the opposite of being honest or straightforward about a program. Those are not antonyms.

 

I hesitate to post this because I'm sure it will attract more criticism that I even compare the use of the word "retarded" to other value-laden terms under discussion. Of course there are differences. But I also think the underlying issue applies here. I don't want to control anyone's personal style, censor language, dictate how things ought to be said, or be thought of as the Niceness Police. Everyone is of course completely free to write exactly what they like. I just would like to raise awareness of what is at stake.

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And if you want encouragement and I want facts, why can't they both exist? I can make statements about curriculum in objective terms, and you can not read criticism of your own homeschool into those statements. If both sides take some care, it should work out fine.

 

Before being homeschooled, my son attended a Montessori School. People at the soccer fields or the basketball court would hear that The Boy attended ____ Montessori and would say, "What is your problem with our public school?" To be honest, Montessori fit my son's disposition. But parents felt that if I did not follow in their footsteps, I was criticizing them.

 

I feel the same reaction on these boards sometimes. If I choose to do something differently, if I do not buy into a curriculum or methodology, then I am against it? :confused: Perhaps this is a perception issue. I do not see the world in dichotomies. If I do not jump on your bandwagon, it does not follow that your bandwagon is invalid.

 

Having said that, I have reported that certain curricular materials did not work for us. I have also commented on text books in my area of expertise, mathematics. Hence I have stepped on toes when I have noted that I prefer A over B.

 

But a discussion of ideas is just that: a discussion. I agree with Angela. It should work out fine. Those toes should not be so sensitive. ;)

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I understand why some have sensitive toes. Some parents are just not so confident when it comes to teaching their kids at the high school level, but these same parents are more afraid of their public school options than of failing their kids academically.

 

I'm blessed to live in a "safe" neighborhood, but I know that some parents are schooling their children and are protecting them from drugs, gangs, and other high school extracurricular activities. In fact, one of my cousins volunteers at the public school her daughter attends, and the stories she told me made my jaw drop. And the school she's at is not in the inner city.

 

So even this conversation about "dumbed down" materials probably makes these parents fearful that they're using these dumbed down materials.

 

Even those of us who are fairly confident in our abilities have moments of doubt. I know some of these parents live in that place of doubt.

 

It's probably because I'm at a co-op where I see these fearful parents that I'm sensitive to their concerns. They constantly thank those who are teaching high school classes for helping them give their children the kind of education they don't believe they can. And these parents love their children.

 

Kim

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Well, I'll try one more time. I'm scratching my head in total confusion, wondering if folks are projecting onto me something that they, themselves, want to think about folks like me? 'Cause I am not an emotional person, not a sensitive person, and am really a lover of facts. I often share facts about why something does or does NOT work with a particular child of mine.

 

And if you want encouragement and I want facts, why can't they both exist?

 

Those toes should not be so sensitive. ;)

 

I think this started when I was saying that this high school board is (usually) balanced and that the younger moms on the younger board tend to say "I hate." I expressed what seems totally logical to me -- those kinds of statements show no tact and really no wisdom. And I would hate for that to become the norm over here.

 

Do we need a dictionary? Is "tact" truly thought to mean "without facts"? I don't know, maybe we speak different languages here and I should just go to the park like my grandson has been begging me to do :tongue_smilie:

 

Julie

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I'm scratching my head in total confusion, wondering if folks are projecting onto me something that they, themselves, want to think about folks like me?

 

 

 

Hi Julie,

 

I am not projecting anything onto anyone. I was responding to Angela's post.

 

You are not alone in head scratching.

 

Jane

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I understand why some have sensitive toes. Some parents are just not so confident when it comes to teaching their kids at the high school level, but these same parents are more afraid of their public school options than of failing their kids academically.

...

So even this conversation about "dumbed down" materials probably makes these parents fearful that they're using these dumbed down materials.

 

Even those of us who are fairly confident in our abilities have moments of doubt. I know some of these parents live in that place of doubt.

 

 

You tell 'em sister! I'm so tired of this pit in my stomach, this sense that I can't figure out if my ideas will shortchange her and ruin her or make her into a stunning individual. I'm weary of being afraid that I'm doing a poor job. It has gotten really bad this year, going into the junior high and high school stuff, in a way I wouldn't have anticipated.

 

I don't think it's overmuch to think that a mom can be doing a good job AND be calming, peaceful, and encouraging.

 

I'll just say then that my favorite poster on the hs board is Kathy in Richmond. Her kids are so smart, they make mine look like weiners any day of the week, but she always manages to reply to questions in an upbeat, take the next step, you're doing great sort of way. Never a quip about what we aren't doing that we should, or hidden slams.

 

Not saying other mothers here don't do that as well, just that she particularly stands out in my mind.

 

The thing I hate, is that confidence sometimes comes in retrospect, with hindsite. We only get one shot with the kid, no time to make hindsite, kwim? :(

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I read a lot of these posts last night and went to bed a bit disturbed... :tongue_smilie: If a mom with a triple degree is unsure of teaching highschool, then what chance do I have??!! (with only one year of college) If I have to be an expert in the areas I'm teaching before I can teach my kids, then what business do I have homeschooling?! :confused: 'Cause let me tell ya--I'm ain't no expert in nothin'!

 

Then I started thinking about my schooling...Christian school K - 12-- Abeka most of the way-- had an English teacher in HS who had a 2 yr degree in office mgt and was more concerned about preaching to us about our worldly clothes than she was about teaching literature (I never read a single classic in my life or during my "advanced" English and Lit class; our writing instruction was "just start writing"); a new biology teacher (fired the following year) who was bullied by his Christian students and who gave us the answers to our tests the day before we had to take them (learned absolutely nothing); zero computers in the school; never had a foreign language (not sure how I got away with that--prob due to the French teacher leaving the yr I was eligible to take it); a math teacher that threw erasers at her students (that was actually pretty funny, but she was a terrible teacher)...but dag-gone, we had a thorough Bible education! :) OK, all of that said (and I could tell more horror stories), I still managed to score in the 99th percentile in English on my ACT and pretty high in everything else (except for that awful subject of math!). Now, how did I manage to do that?? (probably from reading the KJV my whole life!! heehee!!) My teachers were awful! But, even though I don't particularly like Abeka, that curriculum actually gave me somewhat of a solid education, in spite of the lack of expert teachers. And, compared with the PS grads that I worked with in the medical field, I in no way felt inferior to them, even though many of them had degrees. I went to BJU for one year, but (sadly) I had been raised with the notion that girls weren't meant to get degrees. They were meant to get married and have kids. My year at BJU was to find a Christian husband (which I did not find--I did, however, find a lot of nightmarish dates:tongue_smilie:). I have always regretted not finishing my degree, especially now that I am homeschooling. However, I find that I am learning (gasp) right alongside my boys and loving every minute of it! AND....my boys are learning also! Wow!! Amazing! And I'm not even an expert! I don't think that I am an exception; I think that most moms are like me...have a decent education but certainly not rocket scientists. That is why we mamas are always looking for the best curriculum--one that can help give our children a better education than we had, and one that will teach them despite our short-comings. I am using TOG and plan on using it through high school, even though I know I will have to educate myself before they get there. I actually have to, well, work and study. Knowing my weakness (math), I have them use TT (although we have been dabbling with Life of Fred lately and have one kiddo that loves it). Since I never had a foreign language, I got Rosetta Stone for them.

 

So, since I'm writing a book, I might as well tell you about my husband's education!! (I'm actually trying to encourage those of you who do not have triple degrees--or even those of you who do!!) My husband grew up on the mission field in the Philippines. His mom (according to him) basically threw some textbooks at him (Abeka, again) and told him to do his assignments. She virtually taught him nothing. He had to learn to be a self-educator. He was also quite the little businessman, growing various food and selling it at the market--by himself at the age of 10! He also raised and sold chickens to make money. I guess you get pretty creative when you're broke and bored! Heehee!! :D For college, he came back to the US and went to a tough engineering college in TX where he did struggle at first, but because he had learned to teach himself and to work hard at learning, he made it through and has become a successful process engineer/project manager at a major manufacturing company. He also got straight A's in grad school for his MBA a few years ago while working full time, traveling world-wide, and being a husband and father. He got his degree online (thankfully paid for by his company!) where the teacher basically did no teaching. The teacher gave assignments and graded.

 

Okay, so what am I trying to say... Curriculum choice is important, but not everything. Making sure the work gets done is important. Teaching them responsibility is important. Teaching them morals is important. Teaching them the Bible (at least for us) is important. Finding the right resources for their interests is important. But what is maybe not as important as I am seeing stressed here, is the expertise of the teacher or the extreme difficulty of the curriculum and courses. While we have our children at home (even the teen years), subjects are to be introduced--not necessarily mastered. A love for learning should be instilled. A love for God should be nurtured and encouraged. Learning how to learn should become second nature. These are not the years to expect our children to become masters in their fields. They have college and the rest of their lives for that. If God is calling you to teach your kids at home, He--and He alone--is all you need. If you ask, He will give you the wisdom to choose the right curriculum and to teach them what they need for a lifetime in GOD'S service. Remember, we are here to serve Him--not to become so intelligent and self-serving that we forget who it is who made us and saved us. There is so much more to life than a "perfect" and "rigorous" education. We all need to remember that God loves the humble and uses whomever He wishes--even the UNeducated or the UNDEReducated. God has called me to educate my children to the best of my ability. And that is what I will strive to do. I have to rest in the fact that if God has called me to homeschool, then He has given me everything I need to give our children the education they will need to do whatever it is that He calls them to do. If God gives them the ability and calls them to get 10 degrees--then awesome! But if God only gives them the capability or desire to be a blue-collar worker, then praise God!! I don't need to worry about getting them in every class possible under the sun, or having the best of every curriculum out there, or being an expert in every area of life. More than anything, they need my love and attention, which is what I am, by God's grace, striving to provide for them by staying home with them and patiently and lovingly teaching them--with WHATEVER resources God provides for us. They will be fine, despite of me, certainly not because of me, because they are in God's hands! Put God first in your life, and all of the rest will fall into place!

 

God bless and happy homeschooling!

 

Holly in KY--hoping to encourage, certainly not to tear down!

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I read a lot of these posts last night and went to bed a bit disturbed... :tongue_smilie: If a mom with a triple degree is unsure of teaching highschool, then what chance do I have??!! (with only one year of college) If I have to be an expert in the areas I'm teaching before I can teach my kids, then what business do I have homeschooling?! :confused: 'Cause let me tell ya--I'm ain't no expert in nothin'!

/QUOTE]

 

Holly, I can tell you as the holder of an advanced degree that the relatively narrow research and academic production such a degree recognizes are not the same as wisdom about what works best for your individual child. In that respect, all of us on this board are equals; we all have to define our goals for individual kids and work to find a particular path to get there.

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I agree, KarenAnn! I don't know if you read the rest of my post (it was a "bit" winded!!), but that was the conclusion I came to. And never underestimate the education one gets while self-educating!! I'm always whining to my husband that I want to finish my degree, but since I don't want to work outside of the home, :tongue_smilie: my husband thinks it's foolish to pay that much for a "piece of paper." He tells me all of the time to educate myself and not to worry about my educational "status"....he's a big believer in that!

 

Holly in KY

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Holly, I can tell you as the holder of an advanced degree that the relatively narrow research and academic production such a degree recognizes are not the same as wisdom about what works best for your individual child. In that respect, all of us on this board are equals; we all have to define our goals for individual kids and work to find a particular path to get there.

 

Ditto. I have my high school diploma (although I never did get my grade 12 math) and that's it.

 

It never really occurred to me that the fact that I didn't have a degree would make me less capable of homeschooling my children. I took it for granted that I knew them well enough to choose the right educational path and that I was smart enough to learn what I didn't know as we moved into the higher grades.

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I agree, KarenAnn! I don't know if you read the rest of my post (it was a "bit" winded!!), but that was the conclusion I came to. And never underestimate the education one gets while self-educating!! I'm always whining to my husband that I want to finish my degree, but since I don't want to work outside of the home, :tongue_smilie: my husband thinks it's foolish to pay that much for a "piece of paper." He tells me all of the time to educate myself and not to worry about my educational "status"....he's a big believer in that!

 

Holly in KY

 

Holly, I appreciated your long post! As far as the degree thing, what you might do is consider it a long-term plan for what you do AFTER your kids are grown. How old are your kids? I was faced with this, before we (surprise!) got pregnant with ds a couple years ago, and I realized that I wanted to go back and get a master's to be better qualified to teach in a cs. Now that my ds is here, I have 18 (well now 16) more years at home, meaning it's not an issue for a while. But depending on the timing, it could be something to keep in mind.

 

I also think a woman can find her professional development or womanly associations fulfilling. For instance, when my dd was little I was a La Leche League leader. That sort of professional development is satisfying and sort of revolves around what you're already doing in the home, kwim? Some moms become active in their state homeschooling organization. It's just seeing your gifts (which you don't always see clearly when you're 18, frankly), and then seeing what place they might have.

 

I'm just saying while you mourn, I wouldn't mourn too much. There's a time for everything. You may go back and do it later. You might realize in a few years that the thing you would have pursued then isn't what you would pursue now. And many universities are increasing their online and degree completion programs. I think BJU even has one now.

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God bless and happy homeschooling!

 

Holly in KY--hoping to encourage, certainly not to tear down!

 

:thumbup: Great post, Holly.

 

We can't all give our children the same things. Each of us can, however, give our children our individual best.

 

And that's likely to be a whole lot more than they'd get elsewhere.

 

As an example:

 

From the article, "Students Stumble Again on the Basics of History" in the WSJ, June 15, 2011: "The results from the National Assessment of Educational Progress revealed that U.S. schoolchildren have made little progress since 2006 in their understanding of key historical themes, including the basic principles of democracy and America's role in the world."

 

Only 20% of 4th graders and 17% of 8th graders are proficient or advanced. Only 12% of high schoolers are proficient. More than half of the scores of seniors were at the lowest achievement level, below basic. Only 35% of 4th graders knew the purpose of the Declaration of Independence. Less than 1/4 of seniors knew China was N. Korea's ally during the Korean War.

 

:001_huh:

 

 

I'm thinking we could get better results than that if all we did was use Liberty's Kids for history.:tongue_smilie:

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But for most exams, you need to use a (stack of) textbook(s) specifically written towards those exams, and using your own resources is almost guaranteed to get you to miss that trivial fact on page 46 or on page 113. If you give your child an excellent background in history, there is no way to have your child *show* that knowledge, the exam will quiz trivia and if you don't know those, you fail.

I think I get what bugs you about those exams - the fact your children's academic future might be determined by completely arbitrary nonsense that appears on those exams, rather than by what they actually did during their school years? If so, your children are 'merely' being treated the exact same way like everybody else, with the exact same downsides of that approach, i.e. the fact that real education is not taken into account. Except in the ideal world that the US is trying to replicate by more individualized university acceptance process (which I am not sure at all is a good thing, as to me it seems that it comes with its own set of downsides, but that is a different discussion), it is always going to be like that...

 

... But then again, the education you are giving to your children has an inherent cultural value in and of itself, regardless of the acceptance process... You are producing those nuances of difference which will shine much further down the road (be in in terms of concrete knowledge advantage, or in terms of broader educational horizons, etc.). You only have to play their game when it comes to formalities, so the situation is fair and your children are judged by the same criteria like everybody else - but I truly believe that on the long run those differences will be seen, just like some children from the "system" also shine unusually, because they put a lot of additional effort into their self-education in addition to the typical school load. :)

I have been meaning for some time to ask you how you manage to get your children to do both 'your' program and the standard Italian program. Maybe I'm missing something, maybe when I do 'my' program and my children start to prepare for the state exams, it turns out okay. It feels however that in order to get through those exams, I will have to give up most (or all of) my plans. While if I could get the universities to accept a port folio, they would be more than impressed and have no doubt that my child will be able to study at that level.

There is a huge amount of overlap, at least in our case. Like you said, if our children can do AoPS, the yearly / exit exams should be a joke; our standards for classics include the state school standards, they are only a more hardcore version, etc. Our History overlaps for the last five years (I like the way the system fleshes it out), natural sciences in our case are like classics - a more hardcore version, but which fully includes the typical load; English and Hebrew are maybe the only areas which are truly different and 'additional' - but, if I am "interest-led" in anything, then that would fit the bill for those two areas, so it does not really produce the extra load for the kids and can be lightened up as needed in the upper years. Philosophy? We may go more in-depth than supposed or add the Judaic component, but the standard program would also fit the bill for us; Art History we intend to do according to a more stringent route, but that again includes the program itself, I just have to outsource the practical (technical drawing / architecture / design) component for my younger DD. What else? Right, French - we go with the program, and that is enough of a challenge for now.

 

When it comes to History trivia of the kind who slept with whose niece and how that affected national and world history, I just shrug and tell them to suck it up and learn whatever nonsense they are expected to learn - they can privately giggle about it at home and roll their eyes, but if those are expectations, those are expectations and have to be met: rather than trying to change the system, a pointless endeavor indeed (and who knows whether you might actually change it to worse LOL), be a smart girl and turn it into your advantage. "You do not have to like it or agree with it; you just have to do it, end of discussion, punto e basta." In my experience, the less you make it an issue, the less of an issue it will be when they have to satisfy the system, I take a very no-nonsense approach about that and I am not allowing them to mess things up for themselves because they cannot be bothered to play by the rules of the system. In my experience *so far*, it does not take much time to play their game, but then again we have a big overlap and our problem has traditionally not been that we had not covered the system, but that we had overcovered it, sort of, so the kids had to learn to dumb down what they know, so they can neatly fit their boxes.

 

Additionaly, you may look into something else if you wish extra recognition: a sort of dual graduation, within two systems, especially if you have children who speak foreign languages and were partially educated in them. Take APs or SATIIs, SATs etc. if applicable and if your DC want that extra effort (it is not a biggie at all, I know a lot of kids who basically graduated in two systems), for example, those kinds of things might give you a sort of "formal advantage", if they are looking into those formalities OR if you are considering a possibility of a study abroad or switching to a different system. I LOVE that Esabac exists now, it is such a neat thing to graduate at the same time within the Italian and the French system - that is still a kind of the exam that "checks off the box", so you have to satisfy that box, but it opens some extra doors to you. Things like that. Formalities are not necessarily your obstacles, I tend to view them as opportunities, no many how arbitrary and stupid many of those exams may actually be. I hate to say it, but for formalities' sake, it does not matter, just play their game, too many opportunities are dependent on bureaucratic stuff to ignore them. What truly matters is the education, of course, rather than those pieces of paper, but you seem to be on a good way to get there, you might have to make some compromises in the upper years if you decide to play the system's game, but they might not be that drastic as you fear.

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I read a lot of these posts last night and went to bed a bit disturbed... :tongue_smilie: If a mom with a triple degree is unsure of teaching highschool, then what chance do I have??!! (with only one year of college) If I have to be an expert in the areas I'm teaching before I can teach my kids, then what business do I have homeschooling?! :confused: 'Cause let me tell ya--I'm ain't no expert in nothin'!

 

 

 

Holly, I'll be honest and say that I didn't read your entire post closely. :blush: My life is being lived literally on the run these days.

 

I did want to share that I absolutely believe we can teach what we aren't an expert in. I think parents ARE capable. More capable than many public schools and more than co-op teachers. I think it is the involved parent that leads to successful education. The key word is involved. It takes a lot of work and planning in order to make sure what you are doing is skill level/grade level appropriate. But WE can do it.

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Sigh, and that is before you even get into a discussion of whose version of history should be given precedence or which novels were worthy of study.

 

I would love to say that the US could have some sort of university qualifying exam. But I honestly shudder to think of what some of the content would be in the humanities. I think there would be such a food fight over who would control content and grading criteria.

 

There have already been some amusing and also heartbreaking articles written by people who were SAT essay test graders. For example, I'm pretty sure that graders aren't supposed to mark an essay down, even if they know something written is factually incorrect. :confused:

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Formalities are not necessarily your obstacles, I tend to view them as opportunities, no many how arbitrary and stupid many of those exams may actually be. I hate to say it, but for formalities' sake, it does not matter, just play their game, too many opportunities are dependent on bureaucratic stuff to ignore them. What truly matters is the education, of course, rather than those pieces of paper, but you seem to be on a good way to get there, you might have to make some compromises in the upper years if you decide to play the system's game, but they might not be that drastic as you fear.

 

Ester Maria, thanks! I do intend to play the game and have been playing with speadsheets, state exam descriptions etc, trying to fit it in and getting discouraged. But reading your post now, I realise that I might have been trying to fit things in 'backwards'. I'll have to give this some thought and will get back to you, by PM as these sort of practicalities are not really of interest to the readers of this thread.

 

Thanks!

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I'm just saying while you mourn, I wouldn't mourn too much. There's a time for everything. You may go back and do it later. You might realize in a few years that the thing you would have pursued then isn't what you would pursue now. And many universities are increasing their online and degree completion programs. I think BJU even has one now.

 

 

Yes, BJU does have an online completion program now. When I went there, it was not accredited d/t them wanting seperation of church and state (waaaay back in the early 90's). That meant, no government loans. That was another reason why I couldn't go for more than one year. After my parents put 3 of us through Christian school, they couldn't afford to send us to college for more than one year. And then, since BJ wasn't accredited, none of the accredited colleges would accept the credits. I basically would have had to start all over and lose the whole year. Now, I suppose they would accept them since BJ changed their policy and became accredited. My boys are 11 (twins), and I have always thought that I would go back once they were older/out of the house. However, God keeps putting this little thing of adoption on my heart, and I'm not sure school is the path He has for me. Right now I'm focusing on enjoying what children He has given me (I had to go through IVF to get pregnant) and doing my best with homeschooling them. I'm trusting God to show me, when the time is right, which path He has for me. I truly love being a mom, and I hated (strong word, yes) the 8 years I worked before having the boys. I am soooo grateful that I am able to stay home with them! (I was a certified ophthalmic technician...blah...heehee...I am truly a mom at heart!) I do appreciate your encouragement about going back though...I'm headin' towards 40 next year (ack!) and have been thinking I'm just gettin' waaay toooo olddddd... But I'm still praying about it!! :)

 

Blessings!

 

Holly in KY (I hope I did the copy your quote thingy correctly. I'm new to this site and haven't figured everything out yet!)

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Parents come to homeschool boards for encouragement; I'm sure they can obtain criticism elsewhere. If I could find no other way to be really happy with the info I was getting on a particular curriculum than to start a thread about hating it...

 

When I read the word "criticism," I think "facts" or "pros/cons" or "curriculum review." But I think I see what you are saying - are you talking about the threads that simply vent and spew? That you see more on the K-8 board?

 

I do get encouragement here on the boards, and I heavily RELY on these boards for criticism of books/programs/texts (my definition of criticism above). I don't want to hear "You should use this program cuz it's really great" or "you shouldn't use this program cuz it didn't work with my kid." I need the facts; I need to hear about other people's concrete experiences; I need to hear WHY someone liked or didn't like a particular resource. In as much detail as possible, lol. THIS is what I find so helpful on these boards.

 

For example, (and no one needs to address this here - I'm just giving an example - although there is a current thread about it if anyone cares to go share, cuz I'd love to know....) I've always wondered why exactly hardly anyone ever seems to talk about/use the STG for high school science, that are mentioned in the WTM. I've seen people ask about it (like the current thread going), I sometimes lurk on those threads, I see a couple of (what seem to me to be workaroundable) reasons given, and then the threads fade away. I still have no real or solid idea why they aren't commonly talked about/used, and I still don't see anything glaringly wrong with those books - I've seen nothing very compelling against using them. I have copies of them. To me, they are better written than what I had in high school, and the WTM advice on how to use them made sense to me. Supplement with library books on topics in the STG used as a spine, use the lab book, read the science Great Books, write compositions. But I didn't do well in my own high school science, so it's a bit scary, this feeling of a mystery I can't solve. It still seems to me that there is some BIG reason why hardly anyone uses them, and I'm the only one who can't figure out that reason, lol, while everyone else is not talking about that big reason (and I could be wrong, but I have no way of knowing unless someone experienced speaks up). So, that is why I appreciate it when people do list and detail their pros and cons (without, of course, being vague). I have found that the high school board participants are great at doing this. (and I gather you think so, too, Julie)

 

I also find "teacherly help" that Nan mentioned somewhere. So maybe homeschool curriculum is getting dumbed down, maybe it isn't - but I am SO glad for these boards where I can find concrete pros and cons that are rational. I also learn all the time, from a few particular more frequently posting posters (and some infrequently posting gems of posters that pop up from time to time), about teaching/educational plan concepts (I just read something by Janice in NJ, about history teaching, that I'd never thought about before). Things I would never have thought about. It's very deep around here at times. :D (sorry about that confusing sentence in the middle)

 

...the WTM board opinions have helped us find rigor for math and science!

 

Yes!! Please, keep talking about this stuff! Or at least, if any of us posts questions about something, send us a pm if you don't want the cafeteria food fight 8FilltheHeart mentioned. :D (except that usually doesn't happen on the high school board, and I've always assumed it's because people, by teaching high school, have learned how to express themselves logically and clearly from all that logic/English grammar/rhetoric training :D - don't blow my illusion!)

 

It means you should be aware that the words you're using have connotations, and that people can be understandably upset by those connotations, not because they are inherently overly emotional or insecure or fragile.

 

Sometimes we aren't aware, though, and we aren't trying to make sweeping condemnations (or maybe you are just referring to the "I hate..." threads, and not the more objective criticism ones? I can't really tell.) so it's helpful if you (the general "you") ask for definition of words or clarity of meaning if you're getting upset. People might be using words and phrases differently without the intention of upsetting anyone. And sometimes it helps to go back and reread posts, and sometimes reread them within a succession of posts to get the bigger picture. I have to do that a lot, in hopes of gaining a better understanding, before I make replies or ask questions. Then again, in another thread the other day, I became more aware that I tend to read things here more literally; whereas others tend to infer things from what they read, based on different background or experience. Sometimes it's just plain old HARD to communicate in writing with thousands of people we don't know! :D

 

I understand why some have sensitive toes.

 

So even this conversation about "dumbed down" materials probably makes these parents fearful that they're using these dumbed down materials.

 

I understand this. It's scary for me who didn't have a great education, to be planning out yet another year and yet more material (I'm mostly referring to academic skills) that I've never taught or learned before. But I would say to others who might be reading and fearful, esp. if they haven't read the boards for very long yet, "Keep on coming back to read. Sooner or later you are going to find out there are people just like you, who are doing what they didn't think they could do. And they (me) are plugging away, asking questions, reading about the various materials, trying to differentiate between vague opinions and solid fact about materials, to see what's dumbed down for your child, and what's not." LOL, yes I do worry about my leaning towards using the STG for high school science (thankfully I have another year - well, really two years since high school doesn't begin til grade 10 here - to decide - except I would like to take my kids through another four year cycle at the rhetoric level, so, one year, lol)! :D

 

Well, I'll try one more time. I'm scratching my head in total confusion, wondering if folks are projecting onto me something that they, themselves, want to think about folks like me?

 

I think this started when I was saying that this high school board is (usually) balanced and that the younger moms on the younger board tend to say "I hate." I expressed what seems totally logical to me -- those kinds of statements show no tact and really no wisdom. And I would hate for that to become the norm over here.

 

Do we need a dictionary? Is "tact" truly thought to mean "without facts"? I don't know, maybe we speak different languages here and I should just go to the park like my grandson has been begging me to do :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm guessing that people just missed the fact that you originally compared the "I hate..." threads to the more rational ones on the high school board. I missed that the first time I read through that sequence of posts about encouragement vs. obtaining facts, too. I had to carefully reread everything.

Edited by Colleen in NS
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For example, (and no one needs to address this here - I'm just giving an example - although there is a current thread about it if anyone cares to go share, cuz I'd love to know....) I've always wondered why exactly hardly anyone ever seems to talk about/use the STG for high school science, that are mentioned in the WTM. I've seen people ask about it (like the current thread going), I sometimes lurk on those threads, I see a couple of (what seem to me to be workaroundable) reasons given, and then the threads fade away. I still have no real or solid idea why they aren't commonly talked about/used, and I still don't see anything glaringly wrong with those books - I've seen nothing very compelling against using them. I have copies of them. To me, they are better written than what I had in high school, and the WTM advice on how to use them made sense to me. Supplement with library books on topics in the STG used as a spine, use the lab book, read the science Great Books, write compositions. But I didn't do well in my own high school science, so it's a bit scary, this feeling of a mystery I can't solve. It still seems to me that there is some BIG reason why hardly anyone uses them, and I'm the only one who can't figure out that reason, lol, while everyone else is not talking about that big reason (and I could be wrong, but I have no way of knowing unless someone experienced speaks up). So, that is why I appreciate it when people do list and detail their pros and cons (without, of course, being vague). I have found that the high school board participants are great at doing this. (and I gather you think so, too, Julie)

 

:iagree:

 

 

LOL, yes I do worry about my leaning towards using the STG for high school science (thankfully I have another year - well, really two years since high school doesn't begin til grade 10 here - to decide - except I would like to take my kids through another four year cycle at the rhetoric level, so, one year, lol)! :D

 

Well, I may do just this for biology with my ds who wants to be a writer. If we do the WTM route, I'll let you know how it goes for him!

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It worries me that some posters become discouraged by reading posts about ways of teaching advanced literature, science, math, or whatever. It worries me that some posters become discouraged by reading posts that talk about a different educational style or method. It worries me that some posters are afraid to post asking for help because the level or method or style is different from the latest trend or long thread discussion. I think if we only talk about the good, much potentially useful knowledge will not be shared. I think that if we muffle people's rhetorical style, it will make it too hard to post. We all are very busy. We all have a limited amount of time and energy. It takes time and energy to produce a carefully worded piece of writing, and we all, every one of us, only are able to give the board the dregs, so to speak. Our children come first. Our teaching and planning and mothering and household running and keeping up with real life friends and relatives come first. That is as it should be. Yes, we should try to be thoughtful and tactful and helpful here, but I think it is inevitable that we are all going to need to be extra forgiving and forgiven, living and let living here, in this space.

 

We, here in this space, are a large and varied population now. We live the world round. We range from one child to a busload. We range from holding multiple advanced degrees in everything imaginable to not having finished high school. Our goals for our children vary widely. We come from many cultures. We range widely in our ability to type and our ability to speak the lingua franca, English. We range widely in our ability to write coherently. Often, the only time we are able to sit down and post is when we are sick or it is late at night or something has gone wrong. Often, we are ignoring or actively fighting off our other duties as we post. None of this helps us to be as tactful or coherent as we might normally be in real life. I think we need to remember how different we all are. I think we need to remember what obstacles we are dealing with as we post - pain, cats, babies, teens, boiling pots, overflowing toilets, deep panic that we are ruining our children's lives in our efforts to give them better ones...

 

When I sit down to read the boards, I don't read all the sections of the board. I find the general board scary. I find the curriculum board unbearably nostalgic. I find the afterschooling board inapplicable. I find the special needs board humbling and doubt I have anything to offer those hardworking people. I only half match the accelerated board, the high school board, and the college board. The high school board is the closest fit, at the moment, so I read there the most.

 

On the high school board, I have picked a few posters who are a ahead of me, either children's age-wise or level of teaching and materials-wise, and try to read their posts. Those encourage me to do better and give me clues about how I might manage to do so. I have a few posters that I consider friends. Those are the people that I know I can help and who have helped me in the past, or the people with whom I have something in common. I read those for fun and support. I have a few poster's whose lives are very different from mine. I read their posts because they are interesting. I love hearing about Margret in CO's ranch dogs, for example. I keep half an eye out for posts from people who are distressed and read those to see if I have anything to offer them. I keep half an eye out for interesting converstions, ones which might help me to learn about this teaching job that I had thrust on me all unprepared so many years ago. Occasionally, I am bored and have time to kill and go read the recipe or travel or knitting or book threads on the general board. The point here is that THE REST OF THE THREADS I SKIP. I am one small person in one small area of the world and my family doesn't even fit into that area very well. OF COURSE MOST POSTS AREN'T GOING TO APPLY TO ME. I am too different. We are all too different for all the posts to apply to all of us. I know it is sort of a given in the classical world that there is such a thing as an absolute, but I think we all have to remember that there is not when it comes to the education of a particular child. That doesn't mean that we aren't all going to post as if there were. We should be able to post as if there were. We are too tired to do otherwise and the medium is too limited and we haven't the time.

 

I think we all need to take it as a given that if we all had the time and the energy and the knowledge, we would all post in less absolute terms. I think we need to make allowences for each other. I think we need to find the people in similar circumstances who are going to be helpful to us and not worry about the posts that come from people in different circumstances. If we did that, we could all, from people who have 12 year olds in college to people who would be thrilled if their 12 year old could read, from devout to agnostic, from one child to many, from the tip of Africa to the artic circle, feel comfortable asking for help AND offering help.

 

Very, very, very humbly,

Nan

Edited by Nan in Mass
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<snip>

 

When I sit down to read the boards, I don't read all the sections of the board. I find the general board scary. I find the curriculum board unbearably nostalgic. I find the afterschooling board inapplicable. I find the special needs board humbling and doubt I have anything to offer those hardworking people. I only half match the accelerated board, the high school board, and the college board. The high school board is the closest fit, at the moment, so I read there the most.

 

<snip>

 

Very, very, very humbly,

Nan

 

Thank you, Nan! Your entire post is excellent but I snipped it for the sake of brevity, leaving a part that is particularly relevant to me.

 

I was wondering yesterday if there was a secret decoder ring that did not arrive in my mailbox.

 

Hugs all around,

Jane

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A decoder ring...

We've taken a batch of people who are unusual by definition and are forced to rely on each other. A decoder ring would be a great idea! Too bad we can't issue one when a person joins. I have never really understood the need for the avatars, favourite quotes, signatures, personal pages, and hive ranks, but actually, those things do act sort of like decoder rings. At least, they help a bit. I guess as a society we are all learning to deal with our new greatly expanded circle of aquaintences...ances? I guess we've all been cursed with that curse of living in interesting times. : )

-Nan

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Often, the only time we are able to sit down and post is when we are sick or it is late at night or something has gone wrong. Often, we are ignoring or actively fighting off our other duties as we post. None of this helps us to be as tactful or coherent as we might normally be in real life. I think we need to remember how different we all are. I think we need to remember what obstacles we are dealing with as we post - pain, cats, babies, teens, boiling pots, overflowing toilets, deep panic that we are ruining our children's lives in our efforts to give them better ones...

 

. I find the general board scary.

 

On the high school board, I have picked a few posters who are a ahead of me, either children's age-wise or level of teaching and materials-wise, and try to read their posts. Those encourage me to do better and give me clues about how I might manage to do so. I have a few posters that I consider friends

 

OF COURSE MOST POSTS AREN'T GOING TO APPLY TO ME. I am too different. We are all too different for all the posts to apply to all of us. I know it is sort of a given in the classical world that there is such a thing as an absolute, but I think we all have to remember that there is not when it comes to the education of a particular child. That doesn't mean that we aren't all going to post as if there were. We should be able to post as if there were. We are too tired to do otherwise and the medium is too limited and we haven't the time.

 

I think we all need to take it as a given that if we all had the time and the energy and the knowledge, we would all post in less absolute terms. I think we need to make allowences for each other.

 

 

Very, very, very humbly,

Nan

 

Nan, I loved your post. I have been avoiding the entire posting part of this thread b/c online forums simply are what they are. But you really hit some very key pts and I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciated how you articulated yourself.

 

You touched on some key pts for me. I do attempt to post in neutral ways, but I also post while nursing or waiting for a child to get something or while folding laundry (I read the forum a lot while dealing with mtns of it!!) The forum never has my complete attn, so often posts probably don't come across the way I mean.

 

If I had to restrict my posting to always being well-articulated neutral posts, I wouldn't be ever able to post!! :tongue_smilie: (of course, that might not be a bad thing!! :lol:)

 

(ETA: oh, I had to comment on the GB......that place makes me want to run and hide under a table. I don't venture in there any more. I am with you on finding it a scary place. I think the high school board is a picnic compared to that!)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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I'm a little late to the conversation & haven't read all of the posts yet, but here's my take on this.

 

In my area, we are often told that homeschooling fosters independent learning and that by the time a student is in the high school years (rhetoric) they will be working independently. Unfortunately, this broad statement doesn't take into account whether or not a student has a background that has trained their research, study and critical thinking skills that go into the development of an independent learner. I think many people get to this age with their students, find they aren't the independent learners that they thought they would be and conclude that the problem isn't the lack of background preparation, but the the materials they have been using that are the problem. Thus, they begin the search for materials that are touted as being independent, student directed, easy to plan, etc. The ease of use of the materials is what gets them the independent learner, not the actual development and interests of the student.

 

Yes--I think that the whole independent learning thing is, for the most part, a crock. I am always suspicious of a resource that claims to allow the student to work independently because one route to independence on a large scale is to make it easy. Here is something I wrote about this very topic on my (much neglected) blog a while back: http://atreehouseeducation.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/spoon-feeding-vs-independent-learning-a-false-dichotomy/

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...However, we move a lot and....the homeschoolers I have met tend to be co-op, computer-interfaced, not really directly teaching much approach homeschoolers. That is not what it was like when I first started homeschooling. It was all about moms teaching their kids.

 

:iagree:

 

It saddens me so much to see the way "homeschoolers" do it these days! THey should be called "runaround schoolers"--out of their insecurity to teach they run around seeking others to teach everything. If only they knew how empowering it was to learn so that you can teach.

 

MY advice to young homeschoolers with little wiggly 8yo students. Let them play a little more in the woods while you do your teacher training. It goes on in the "real" schools all the time. The value that this will be to your kids when they are 10yo s will be immeasurable.

 

The catch is that you have to be committed to it long term this way. Too many moms are doing it on a year by year basis and so they are paranoid of getting 2 months behind!! Oh me, oh my!

:tongue_smilie:

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Although insecurity is often why families choose to have others do their teaching, some do it because their children and/or they are highly social. Some do it because their children respond better to having others as the teacher, i.e. the work gets done when there's another adult setting the deadline. I know that the latter reason indicates discipline issues, but the fact is that it's just the dynamic in some families.

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Although insecurity is often why families choose to have others do their teaching, some do it because their children and/or they are highly social. Some do it because their children respond better to having others as the teacher, i.e. the work gets done when there's another adult setting the deadline. I know that the latter reason indicates discipline issues, but the fact is that it's just the dynamic in some families.

 

 

And certainly it's the parent's right to choose to do that. It gives them a much higher degree of control than just enrolling their child in school - they can choose the courses, the teachers, etc. If they can afford it and are not interested in the more traditional type of homeschooling, why not?

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:iagree:

 

It saddens me so much to see the way "homeschoolers" do it these days! THey should be called "runaround schoolers"--out of their insecurity to teach they run around seeking others to teach everything. If only they knew how empowering it was to learn so that you can teach.

 

MY advice to young homeschoolers with little wiggly 8yo students. Let them play a little more in the woods while you do your teacher training. It goes on in the "real" schools all the time. The value that this will be to your kids when they are 10yo s will be immeasurable.

 

The catch is that you have to be committed to it long term this way. Too many moms are doing it on a year by year basis and so they are paranoid of getting 2 months behind!! Oh me, oh my!

:tongue_smilie:

 

Well, part of it may be that a lot of homeschoolers are like me. Basically I want the BEST education for every subject, so I search and search to find the best wherever it may be. We don't think ps offers the best... I don't think home offers the best necessarily..it depends on the home. I've enjoyed educating myself over the last few years. TOG has helped a lot with that but my homeschooling co-op finds me intimidating in creating my own materials all the time because I never, ever use anything exactly as written. I love tweaking, but tweaking is also exhausting and I am just very, very, very tired and the boys are so old. I'm ready for someone else to do it...at least part of it. ( Especially since the 14yo thinks I'm not the smartest cookie. Part of him is tired of mom as the teacher. I'm not man enough.) I'm probably rambling, but to many of the new homeschoolers it is about education..the best education, not about home. Maybe we need a new word... but I'm not sure what it is.

 

I'm the only homeschooler in my church. I tell them as well as anyone else: homeschooling isn't for everyone. There are pros and cons to every form of education you choose. There are great ps students and teachers. There are awful ones. There are fabulous homeschoolers. There are atrocious homeschoolers. Most of us fall somewhere in between. All forms of education have gaps.

 

Christine

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I I think that if we muffle people's rhetorical style, it will make it too hard to post. We all are very busy. We all have a limited amount of time and energy. It takes time and energy to produce a carefully worded piece of writing, and we all, every one of us, only are able to give the board the dregs, so to speak. Our children come first. Our teaching and planning and mothering and household running and keeping up with real life friends and relatives come first. That is as it should be. Yes, we should try to be thoughtful and tactful and helpful here, but I think it is inevitable that we are all going to need to be extra forgiving and forgiven, living and let living here, in this space.

 

Of course this is exactly true, Nan, and I don't think anyone would disagree with you. I don't think anyone (I suppose you mainly are referring to Julie and me) is trying to change anyone's rhetorical style or muffle their personal way of expressing their ideas. I understand that our levels of verbal awareness go up and down depending on circumstances. All I am saying is that awareness ought to be there. It may or may not affect how anyone chooses to express herself; I'm not trying to dictate that it should.

 

However, thinking about words closely and carefully is at the center of what a classical education is all about.

 

I think there is a point at which everyone can understand that using words like "bad," "wrong," "invalid," and "dangerous" to refer to someone else's educational choices, be they curricular or otherwise, or "I hate X" phrasing, is not a neutral use of language but is highly charged. Even using words like "superficial," or "superior," if they occur in a context created by the use of the first set of words I listed, is not neutral. I am not being emotional, overly sensitive, or politically correct if I find this to be judgmental and unhelpful.

 

Does this mean no one should use those words? No, of course not. It just means they should be aware that such phrasing is not neutral but charged, and they should not be surprised if some people react to it as such.

 

I also think that, given the prominent place logic is accorded in a classical curriculum, people can understand that tactfulness and honesty are not mutually exclusive.

 

Of course I fail at tact at times. But I hope that being tactful and thinking about what language I use and what effect it might have on other readers remains one of my highest priorities, no matter how often I might fall short. I understand that not everyone is going to share this goal; but it might explain, to those who don't share it, the dynamics of some of the threads, and the very real damage that can be done, particularly to new homeschoolers or people coming to the high school board for the first time.

 

Again, if for some people this is not a concern -- if they feel that anyone who reacts to a post by feeling it is unnecessarily judgmental or harsh or disrespectful just needs to get over their sensitivity -- that's certainly their call. If some people out there (can't imagine anyone who would have been like this!) came into homeschooling from the start never feeling insecurities or lack of confidence that could be ratcheted up by particular kinds of comments, then I can understand why they would assume everyone is similarly minded and that therefore language is not an issue. What I don't understand is why it is the supposedly overly-sensitive who must adjust -- one could say censor -- their behaviors and responses, or try to understand where the other side is coming from, while those who use charged language should be able to go about expressing themselves in the way they see fit without being bothered by the reactions they might stir up.

 

Freedom of language and expression does not mean freedom from the consequences of the words you choose.

 

I try to teach my child thoughtfulness in both word and action (actually I don't have to teach her this last; she was born thoughtful and considerate and has always been my teacher in this respect), and this includes thoughtfulness about who might be listening to or reading her words. I hope I continue to strive for it myself even at the end of the day when I'm tired and distracted, again, no matter how often I fail. I do not find this at odds with honesty or with strong opinions of any kind. But then, I'm an oddball in so many, many ways.

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I think we all need to take it as a given that if we all had the time and the energy and the knowledge, we would all post in less absolute terms. I think we need to make allowences for each other. I think we need to find the people in similar circumstances who are going to be helpful to us and not worry about the posts that come from people in different circumstances. If we did that, we could all, from people who have 12 year olds in college to people who would be thrilled if their 12 year old could read, from devout to agnostic, from one child to many, from the tip of Africa to the artic circle, feel comfortable asking for help AND offering help.

 

Very, very, very humbly,

Nan

 

Back to your original question; I think it's hard to make a generalization one way or another; I've seen changes in both directions. What does amaze me is the number of pre-packaged curricula available for things I had to cobble together on my own. I expect my having to DIY and work a bit harder didn't do me much harm, but then I hs'ed an only.

 

It's one thing to start out the journey with ideas of what homeschool should be, but another to guide an individual teen through high school and into whatever comes next. Parents, children, family dynamics, and goals all vary. IMO, there is NO magic curriculum out there for any subject. More important that specific curricula or educational philosophy is the importance of discussions with your students and also have them write about their reading and and discuss their writing with you. I'm in favor of developing independence, but I do think using a mantra of read, discuss, write, and then discuss some more adds a dimension you can't get by independent study alone.

 

I think it's a mistake to lower expectations for a child who is capable of more, but it's also a mistake for a parent/teacher to become overly invested in their child's education and to consider the child's success or lack thereof as a reflection on them. (I'm making the assumption that parents are reasonably diligent.)

 

An aside for anyone who's fretting about the adequacy of their curriculum choices with regard to college prep, you might have your child take the ACT for practice and order the score analysis. I think I ordered it on a whim without expecting much, but it helped validate the majority of my curriculum choices and gave me some insights into how improve weaknesses. BTW, our homeschool philosophy was NOT geared solely toward college prep but it was an important component.

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:iagree:

 

It saddens me so much to see the way "homeschoolers" do it these days! THey should be called "runaround schoolers"--out of their insecurity to teach they run around seeking others to teach everything. If only they knew how empowering it was to learn so that you can teach.

 

MY advice to young homeschoolers with little wiggly 8yo students. Let them play a little more in the woods while you do your teacher training. It goes on in the "real" schools all the time. The value that this will be to your kids when they are 10yo s will be immeasurable.

 

The catch is that you have to be committed to it long term this way. Too many moms are doing it on a year by year basis and so they are paranoid of getting 2 months behind!! Oh me, oh my!

:tongue_smilie:

 

Homschooling has always encompassed many different styles. The run-arounders may just be the newest style and I'm not going to feel sad for them. Empowerment comes in different flavours and they may well be experiencing a different form that those of us who build our homeschooling more around home life are missing out on - maybe the empowerment that comes from networking and forming communities?

 

I just don't get the idea of feeling sad for them. They've taken responsibility for their childrens' education and are building new models of education for them. Not my cup of tea but it's fine with me.

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KarenAnne's post on the use of language reminds me of something I've noticed here recently; many our regulars maintain blogs and put links into their posts, and I love reading them. However, IMNSHO, public forums and blogs are fundamentally different media, and call for using different filters. Sometimes I get the impression that people are recycling blog material here without giving enough thought to how the words will be perceived in a public forum. Just my two cents and probably not worth that much.

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Oh Beth,

 

Don't be sad for me. I'm actually thrilled about our eclectic education.

 

For example youngest ds is passionate about music. His line up will continue for high school:

 

Violin teacher - NJ symphony player

Piano instructor - amazing performer, amazing teacher, Eastman undergrad, Julliard Master's Degree, teaching for over 30 years, AND an incredibly connected person in the classical music world.

Organist - another amazing gal. She is "good friends" with everyone in the professional pipe organ world to boot.

 

He will be doing music theory via one-on-one distance learning with a gal with a doctorate in music theory. She teaches music theory to upper level college students. She is also a well-connected organ professor who has worked with my guy and gives him a lesson when she is in town.

 

Those are just some of the things he will be working on next year, but I've included them because they illustrate my point. Could I "teach" those subjects to my son if I focused on it? Sure! I can do anything. Do I have the "ability" to do it as well as those folks will. No. Period. No. I do not have the experience. Period. And I just don't have the time to get "good enough" at it. If I tried it, when we were done with the year, I would have a LENGTHY list of things I would do different given a do-over. And guess what? These folks have done this before. Many, many times. They don't need a do-over. They are going to do it right the first time. They have the expertise, the education, the ability, and the experience to do it well the first time. So my ds will be learning from them. I am still in the loop. I make sure he is holding up his end. But that's parenting, not teaching.

 

BUT hsing (or what ever you call what we are doing) has allowed us the ability to run this kind of program on the side. And it has defined who my kid is.

 

I have self-educated. I could teach every single academic high school subject to my kids. But I choose not to. Sometimes I find a better option than me. I am only one person. Sometimes I just physically don't have the time to meet all of the needs of this family on my own. When I find a better option that fits our family's goals, I nab it. Fast! With no regrets! So sometimes I outsource. I hire someone to do part of the actual teaching for me. For example, we use Chalkdust DVD's for math. Dana Mosely teaches that math lesson with precision every single day, and he always has the time when my kid has the time. I don't teach math lessons. He does. My kids sit and take notes as he writes things down. They listen. They look at their book. (The whole time I am working with another kid.) THEN when the kid is done, they come see me. I spot check to see if they understand the man in the blinking box. Then I assign problems, the kid does them, I check the answers to look for faulty procedures, and we file the books away.

 

But I don't teach math. I parent the child through the math Dana teaches. I am trying to teach them to get the most they can from someone else.

 

Anyway. I outsource. Whenever I can!

 

But please don't feel sorry for me. I'm a very happy woman. We are having a grand, grand ride! :001_smile:

 

Oh - and I would be happy to adopt another title besides homeschooling. I've never thought that title had very much to do with the way my role has developed anyway. We certainly don't try to run a school at home. We don't do things like the school does. The word actually conjures up the wrong picture in people's minds anyways. If you think of an alternate, please let me know. I actually would prefer a different word. :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

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Oh KarenAnne! I wasn't refering to you. I was thinking of the newbies and how it is hard it is for the oldies to support each other without discouraging the newbies. I was trying tactfully (perhaps I should forget tact - sigh) to offer a modus operandi for sifting through the great volume of contradictory posts. It is a problem. Posts meant as help for particular people are posted publicly and it is hard to tell what is meant for whom and what has followed before and all that. And yet, often posting publicly lets you get more help. I don't know. Anyway, I am most sorry if I hurt your feelings.

-nan (feeling very small)

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Oh Beth,

 

Don't be sad for me. I'm actually thrilled about our eclectic education.

 

 

Anyway. I outsource. Whenever I can!

 

But please don't feel sorry for me. I'm a very happy woman. We are having a grand, grand ride! :001_smile:

 

Oh - and I would be happy to adopt another title besides homeschooling. I've never thought that title had very much to do with the way my role has developed anyway. We certainly don't try to run a school at home. We don't do things like the school does. The word actually conjures up the wrong picture in people's minds anyways. If you think of an alternate, please let me know. I actually would prefer a different word. :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

:iagree:

 

With my oldest we had so few opportunities that every single class on his transcript was done with with me. Even those hideous Linux classes...uugh! The few co-op classes he did were not transcript worthy. (woodburning!) He taught a few though!

 

That being said, I do not feel like a lesser homeschooler because my younger two do some outside classes. :001_smile:

 

To me homeschooling is a legal definition; I still choose the opportunities and give the diploma. I'm the one trying to learn enough Japanese to get them going until I can get a tutor. I'm the one mucking through all the SAT II, AP and ACT/SAT carp to help middle dd get where she needs to be to meet her goals. I'm the one looking for a math tutor for younger dd cause she and I simply do not mesh in this area. And she needs a decent art mentor also, as she begins her AP Studio Art/portfolio journey because she is so far ahead of me that I can't even see where she is headed.

 

I am responsible for their education.

 

But maybe a new word is in order, 'cause this one surely does not feel all that welcoming anymore.

 

Georgia

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Oh KarenAnne! I wasn't refering to you. I was thinking of the newbies and how it is hard it is for the oldies to support each other without discouraging the newbies. I was trying tactfully (perhaps I should forget tact - sigh) to offer a modus operandi for sifting through the great volume of contradictory posts. It is a problem. Posts meant as help for particular people are posted publicly and it is hard to tell what is meant for whom and what has followed before and all that. And yet, often posting publicly lets you get more help. I don't know. Anyway, I am most sorry if I hurt your feelings.

-nan (feeling very small)

Oh Nan, don't feel small! I don't think that Karen was even disagreeing with you — just expanding on what you said. I think she was just trying to make a distinction (which others in this thread have also pointed out) between saying "this curriculum didn't work for my kids for these reasons..." or "I compared this to 3 other biology programs and felt this was the least comprehensive of the three" versus posts that say "This is a completely useless program and anyone who uses it is doing their child a terrible disservice."

 

Because of posts of the second type, people sometimes get overly defensive and respond to posts of the first type as if they're attacks, when they're not. And I think that is actually the reason why people are so reluctant to "name names" or compare curricula — they're afraid that no matter how diplomatically they word something, any criticism of someone's favorite program will be treated as if it's an attack. For example, I've noticed that threads about certain math programs, which used to engender heated debates, now generate almost exclusively positive reviews, because those who are critical of them simply aren't willing to post about it anymore, because they know they'll be dogpiled by people defending the program. And that's a shame really, because it means newbies don't get the full spectrum of opinions, just the positive ones.

 

Are those defenders over-reacting, or being too sensitive, or whatever? Yes — but they may have been primed to feel that way by multiple other posts that were tactless and offensive and implied that only an idiot (or someone who doesn't care if their child receives a completely inadequate education) would use a certain curriculum or teach a subject in a certain way or drop a subject, or whatever.

 

So I think it goes both ways: yes people should be less sensitive and not take every criticism of their favorite program as a personal attack — but I think those people probably wouldn't be so hypersensitive if it weren't for the posts that do imply that anyone who does things differently from the poster is an idiot.

 

Jackie

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Well, I may do just this for biology with my ds who wants to be a writer. If we do the WTM route, I'll let you know how it goes for him!

 

That would be great!

 

THey should be called "runaround schoolers"--out of their insecurity to teach they run around seeking others to teach everything. If only they knew how empowering it was to learn so that you can teach.

 

MY advice to young homeschoolers with little wiggly 8yo students. ...

 

I want to say "Welcome, Beth!" but I see you've been registered here for a few years :lol:. From looking at your signature, I bet you have some helpful experiences you could share on the boards.

 

Question - when you talked about insecurity and "runaround schoolers" who seek others to teach everything, were you mostly referring to Moms of younger kids, approx. ages 5-10ish? I'm thinking you were, because of what you wrote about 8-10 year olds afterwards. But I'm thinking others thought you meant Moms of high schoolers, many of whom do outsource for legitimate reasons within their families. Is my guess correct or incorrect?

 

All I am saying is that awareness ought to be there. ...

 

It's not always going to be, though. We are global contributors here. Sure, most are Americans, but even the Americans are East Coasters, some are West, some are New Englanders, some are Southerners, Midwesters, Northwesters, southwesters, southeasters. Then there is the diversity of Canadians here. Then there are the Europeans, who are all quite different from each other. We've got some people living in different part of the Middle East here, India, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, South Africa, and so on. All trying to communicate in English here. What one person is aware of, I might not be aware of, and vice versa. How about just asking some clarifying questions of each other every so often??

 

However, thinking about words closely and carefully is at the center of what a classical education is all about.

 

I completely agree with this, and I agree with what I think was your sentiment of, "We are responsible for our words." And I think most posters who participate regularly try VERY hard to do this. We do all, though, have our varying situations - there's the Mom with 8 kids filling her heart (and taking loads of her time and energy), there's Ester trying to communicate in her second language here while managing a few children, there's Julie with her ill husband, there's me with two kids/science and math worries/need to frugalize life/family emergency coming up, there's choirfarm who's trying to work out a new term for homeschooling now....we cannot all be always aware of how everyone else is going to perceive our words. It's really only just an online message board when you step back and look at it. Here's a post SWB wrote last year that I think is somewhat related this thought: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1583381&postcount=1

 

Oh KarenAnne! I wasn't refering to you. I was thinking of the newbies and how it is hard it is for the oldies to support each other without discouraging the newbies. I was trying tactfully (perhaps I should forget tact - sigh) to offer a modus operandi for sifting through the great volume of contradictory posts. It is a problem. Posts meant as help for particular people are posted publicly and it is hard to tell what is meant for whom and what has followed before and all that. And yet, often posting publicly lets you get more help. I don't know. Anyway, I am most sorry if I hurt your feelings.

-nan (feeling very small)

 

Nan, your whole post was very encouraging to me. I think of you as a poster who is able to see varying viewpoints and somehow put them together into a nice painting.

 

I hope this particular tangent of this thread doesn't discourage people from posting their opinions about books and curriculum. Have a look at the description for the high school board: "Are you schooling a high school student? Or giving yourself a classical education too? Post questions, book reviews, thoughts, recommendations, and more here." For that matter, let's have a re-read of all the board descriptions. This online forum IS made for posting opinions related to educating our children - books/methods/resources/etc.. The General Board has strayed rather far from most of its given description (not a complaint, moderators! I'm trying very hard to not break that board rule); I'd hate to see people here on the high school board refraining from offering help and opinions when asked for, for fear of offending, when it's simply not possible to please everyone with words.

 

Off to read now about if people think the STG for science are dumbed-down and why....(I think your original question was great, Nan)

Edited by Colleen in NS
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But please don't feel sorry for me. I'm a very happy woman. We are having a grand, grand ride! :001_smile:

Oh - and I would be happy to adopt another title besides homeschooling. I've never thought that title had very much to do with the way my role has developed anyway. We certainly don't try to run a school at home. We don't do things like the school does. The word actually conjures up the wrong picture in people's minds anyways. If you think of an alternate, please let me know. I actually would prefer a different word. :001_smile:

:iagree:

I'm not sure why someone would "feel sad" for those who choose a different path, when those people may in fact be perfectly happy with their choices. Maybe some of those "runaround schoolers" feel sad for kids stuck at home all day. ;)

 

But maybe a new word is in order, 'cause this one surely does not feel all that welcoming anymore.

I think in any group as large and diverse as homeschoolers there will always be people who want to define what it means to be a "true [whatever]." I don't understand why people get so hung up on labels, or why anyone really cares what other people call themselves, but it does seem to be an issue in every large group. If people want to limit the term "homeschooling" to those who school at home with Mom doing most of the teaching, then I'd be happy to adopt another term. I quite like Nan's idea of "indy educators" because that's actually a lot more descriptive of what we do.

 

Jackie

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